Having super shaky hands, the low techskill requirement is a godsend for me. Been a huge melee fan for 10 years but couldn't play it. Now I can actually wave dash, shield drop, ledge dash.. it's so sick
As a rivals 1 player, I'm really disappointed to see the rivals community going in the cons list. Almost everyone I met who played rivals 1 was incredibly welcoming and kind to me when I was new, so it sucks to see that isn't the experience for new rivals 2 players. I hope he knows there's a lot of us out there who want the community to grow and don't want to gatekeep.
Yeah, it seems like a good portion of the rivals 1 playerbase is quite disappointed that Rivals 2 turned out more like melee/ultimate and less like rivals 1. It's kinda understandable, though, in the long term, it would be nice if everyone just gets together a try hard to make Rivals 2 a great game, Nintendo needs to go for real.
Rivals 1 players seem to want to say that all the characters are balanced and they just aren’t. I don’t really get it but the rivals people seem totally in denial that there are broken characters.
@@chw14556 that's the thing though, every character is broken. it was the same in rivals 1, everyone had broken dumb stuff that was fun to execute, but not as fun to get hit by. i don't think a single person had fun in a match where ori fair > bashed them off the side at 30%, or getting hit by ranno's di mixup on whether fair is gonna sweet spot or sour spot. in rivals 1 every character had haters, and they were all justified. iirc maypul was considered to be one of the least gimmicky characters and she still would tether dair to start combos, or tether into up air or fair to kill regardless of your di. every character is broken, you've gotta ask yourself if you are okay with that level of balance if you wanna keep playing the game.
Leffen elaborated on this better I feel. He said "I've only met 2 kinds of Rivals 1 players...half of them are super nice and the other half are complete douches with no in between!". Now granted...I wouldn't put it past Leff to have exaggerated that last part (or the internet skewing the results a bit) but I thought it was nice he at least acknowledged the nice Rivals 1 players! lol :P
Definitely agree with the shielding. I think if more aerials had a better state against shield, it would fix that problem. Right now, there is a small amount of pressure. And it makes grabbing so much better when people just block.
@@drstclairif I’m hitting someone’s shield with an aerial I always try to land behind them or space outside of shield grab. Having to drop shield or jump makes a lot of moves safer on shield.
The shield hurtbox is also sooo much smaller than the graphic, so what I think **looks** like a perfectly spaced aerial in fact whiffed their shield, allowing them to punish with whatever they damn please
@@RePlayQthe problem is a massive amount of characters have weird grab ranges that extend past their arm lengths, spacing maypul Nair just to get magnet grabbed by Clairen makes me want to put the controller down lol
As a filthy wrastor player, I agree so hard about the setups to 50-50s and the "oh you missed your chance for your setups, better stack up another 60% really quick so you can kill off a random nair in neutral" part. I never really thought about how edge guarding filled that gap so well. Edge guarding is such a fun mini game to play in melee and either it is not refined in this game yet or recovery is too strong. Good stuff.
the problem is teching and how many things refresh your recovery resources. so many times you'd be able to just kill someone but they instateched off the wall, and now because you hit them they have all their jumps back. compound that with the fact that almost every stage has a big wall that goes all the way down, it just makes recovery too easy and edgeguarding a risk not worth taking 99% of the time.
Honestly really well-spoken with a ton of good points. The offense/defense balance is always a tightrope walk but I still think it leans a bit too much into defense right now (the giant keepaway stages with low ban numbers don't help), and I agree that the expressiveness in the game is gonna be a problem as is. Still in favour of tuning down the egregious stuff rather than adding a bunch of execution barriers, if options were more equally appealing then the options you went for would feel more personalized, right now a lot of characters look too similar regardless of who's playing them.
@@Zimran03 Yeah I almost didn't recognize Fire Capital because that shit is absolutely massive compared to 1 lol. I think it's fine to have a couple big stages but there's like 4 stages that are quite big.
I agree with the no edge guarding and kreygasm criticisms the most, Edge guarding should always be the dominant option over Ledge trapping otherwise the game loses sauce and becomes lame
I swear mango is such a breath of fresh air after seeing so many people shit on every complaint in the subreddit. As if the game is perfect, nothing is wrong, and things feeling bad don't matter as long as there's technically counterplay
My man, absolutely every fucking thing anyone says about anything online anymore, ESPECIALLY in regards to video games, is negative as shit. Some of us just want to be able to likea cool new thing for at least a week or two before the shittification form all angles begins, but there's always clowns like you going around going "OH MY GOD THIS ONE GUY WHO BASHES THE GAME IS SUCH A BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!!!! I HATE POSITIVITY!!!! FUCK THIS GAME!!!!!!! anyone who doesn't hate it is a TOXIC POSITIVITY LOSER WHO THINKS IT HAS NO FLAWS OBVIOUSLY!!!!!!!" And I see this damn same mentality all the time, everywhere, constantly spouting it like everyonein every community is 'too positive' when the truth is 99.9999999% of everything is too *NEGATIVE* lately and some of us just want out from under it.
Never forget when r/smashbros unironically defended Hero from Ult by saying you could get around his unreactable RNG moves by "not getting hit", basically saying that if he wasn't as broken as Smash 4 Bayo, then he wasn't a problem. TL;DR Reddit is just as dumb as twitter, they just express it differently! (lol :P)
@@spackmoose6002 Hero's problem wasn't that he was broken (He was mid tier from what I remember) its that he had too much RNG which you couldn't always react to...meaning sometime a Hero player could win if they just got lucky. A mid tier can still be badly designed and Hero was one of them (competitively anyways, very fun character casually!)
@@Alienrun Honestly the genuine BIGGEST problem with Hero imo is the lack of a universal UI for his spells. Hero is genuinely quite a big obstacle for international tournaments solely because of the language barrier to his spells making the matchup so much worse for external factors. Which is a shame to say since Ultimate made a fairly hefty update to a lot of character's UIs (cloud's limit, Robin's spells, etc.) In retrospect, Hero didn't cause much upsets with RNG.
Kinda' spittin' here tbh! The core argument here that playin' with your homies, or even in locals/tourney is super fun, but the corny shit is too effective when you run into it online, is very sound. This game has honest BONES, the mechanics for edge guarding are there but most of the cast's recovery is safest while approaching the stage, making them the most vulnerable specifically at the ledge rather than in the air. I see lots of excellent edge guards, so I disagree there's no hype there, but you gotta go get 'em and to Mango's point: why do that when you can ledge trap or hunt for your 50/50 instead for a higher chance at success. Same is true for neutral, everyone has a zillion nifty options because their gimmicks are so dynamic, but dashdance/shield beats too many of them. Any non-projectile parry is SO HYPE in this game, but again, why do that when shield is safer, and plenty useful in more situations. So yeah, I think we're a couple patches from an amazing online experience, but when we play friendlies we're playing the true Rivals, avoiding corny shit, playin' for dope moments, freestyling, edge guarding, 'cause the game makes that shit possible and extremely fun.
The non projectile parries are the opposite of hype and one of the lamest mechanics I've ever seen in a platform fighter. Really wish they ditched it in rivals 2.
Huge Pro I didn't hear you say is that it's fun to watch! As a 10 year melee watcher this is the only other platform fighter that delivers a similar level of hype
Maybe if I got a chance to play the game I’d appreciate watching it more but it looks wack af to me. I guess it’s better than Sonic vs Steve but there are like 70 something other characters in Ult so 🤷🏽
@@newjumpcityjosh9333trust me you’re not hurting yourself giving it a shot. I’ve been a smash fan all my life and i feel like this has all the sauce of a smash bros we should’ve got. The game feels tight, fluid and responsive in a way smash has never felt to me
straight up the game would be a 10/10 if shielding was way worse and edge guarding was viable. might have to add another stock if people start dying before 150% lol
@seanqwe100 I remember thinking it was so weird that for super heavyweight, Kragg kills so late and only kills with fair, and everyone thought I was just being weird about that, only to find out "oh wait, he kills it around 140 to 130, while everyone's killing at 170 to 190, that is unless you get a specific kill confirm, in which case he can kill at 40, and everyone can kill at 70, so that's why everyone thinks his kill power is so broken.
Biggest problem with this game is they literally hired an intro narrator to say everyone's names all cool like, then didn't use those clips when you pick them on the character select >:(
when I got called an idiot by the rivals community because I said it was a bad idea to launch the game with no tutorial I knew the community was gonna be a major roadblock to the game's success.
I'd say no to shield pokes for it to be more noob friendly. Just have the shield hp decay faster as you're holding it. Lower the shield hp by ~15-25%. Then if you're running away to restore shield it should be slow, but if you go on counter offense and land hits it should replenish faster (Like SF6 drive gauge).
You get your shield fully restored by hitting a parry IMO getting shield restored by hitting sounds a bit to much imo but hard agreed on everything else
This game has a ranked system, noobs shield poking each other would be great. They either learn to tilt their shield against a similar skill level or don't. It's the difference between perseverance or just being stubborn. Learn and move on, or be a casual. Both are fine.
Honestly it's just that Clairen is so incredibly easy at the lower levels without big weaknesses. I don't even play her, and if I got Space Jammed I would probably pick her against the aliens. Lightning tippers make basically every combo guaranteed without even picking the "right" move for the situation. Her recovery is incredibly annoying to deal with and too punishing if you mess up trying to ledgeguard her. Puff has Bair and Uthrow rest, but that's really her only "cheese" aside from specific matchups (Like crouch spam against Sheik). Even Bair isn't cheese, it's just a really good spacing tool but doesn't lead into anything if you tech away. She still needs a solid read to kill. She dies early and gets camped out really hard. She has terrible moves for coming down from above, and absolutely zero tilt game. I get tilted playing against her sometimes too, but it feels a lot different than fighting Clairen.
So, the rivals community is amazing. Tt's the ONLINE rivals community that's ass. The people who don't go to local events are always the worst. You know exactly the types I'm talking about.
Curious because I remember seeing your review on this game, what do you think needs to get balanced? Fun as this is there are definitely a lot of points where it can feel very frustrating. Considering you've been in the scene 10 years, even if you won't do a video on your channel, it'd be interesting hearing what you think works and doesn't work.
@@praetorian9823 Honestly nothing major. Some characters are overtuned (Maypul, Wrastor, Fleet) Mean while lox is a little under tuned. Even then I wouldn't change much. I generally love how the game plays.
Big agree on most things mentioned here. I will say the vision for this game isn't to be melee junior, but I think you already went over that in that melee did a lot of things well and there's no harm in taking those aspects and trying to make them even better. As a "Rivals 1 player" I appreciate you making content and doing your part to help the game succeed :)
Here’s my interpretation of why it seems like a lot of rivals players do not like smash players/have animosity towards us (not trying to be petty, disrespectful or rude. All love.): many are fundamentally very upset that we didn’t latch on to rivals 1 with all its uniqueness, and because of that they feel like Dan made the game more like smash to finally get us to join. It’s a fact that rivals 1 was not doing very well towards the end of its lifecycle (which is pretty normal) and that if Dan made rivals 2 like they wanted (drift di, pixel art, no shields or ledges, wall jump out of prat fall) the numbers would not be nearly as good as they are now. Not only do many resent Dan for not just making rivals 2 in the way they wanted, but they resent us for essentially proving Dan right that the PM route was the best way to go success-wise. If we would’ve fallen in love with rivals 1, then a lot of them would feel rivals 2 wouldn’t have become like PM. Part of that is on the devs tho, cause like they could’ve made it more like PM but kept some stuff like drift DI in or make characters like wrastor feel sooo much worse. So, on top of the fact that sometimes smashers will default take over a community at the start (nasb) then ditch it later, and the fact that smashers have also gotten special treatment that some of their own haven’t gotten (extra spots at invitationals, rivals 2 at the main stage at rivals 1 last real genesis) they are annoyed at everything we do.
you're not wrong for the most part. And I'm not trying to attack or be rude or anything just giving a perspective of a rivals player , granted a pretty new generation one since I've definitely spent more time in smash, but have grown fond of the rivals community as a whole in the last couple of years and listening to the old heads about the game. I think some of it also has to do with it feels like for the Rivals community our request and thoughts are often put on a back burner in favor of Melee/PM. I don't think that everyone wanted to keep the pixelated artwork (I do know some did but majority didn't care, and I'm certain there were some that did but end of day this isn't a game killer), and I think majority of players are ok with the loss of being able to wall jump out of prat because it would of made recovery broken. But stuff like Drift DI being taken out kinda stinks because it was a cool mechanic from R1, Shields and grabs are ok, but the inclusion of like CC/FH plus having parry really made an aggressive game more defensive, which by the very wording here its the opposite of the original game, but does welcome in new communities. Whenever the rivals community goes "what the heck why is my combo structure not working" because of the FH in the game they were then immediately attacked by PM/HDR/Melee players saying its a skill issue, games like this require this mechanic, which leaves the Rivals community baffled because we had a very fast pace aggressive game without it and it was still fun, but their opinions get ignored because "its just in the game get over it" was thrown in their faces a lot, so a lot of them are now having to learn a mechanic that isn't really intuitive that also has 20+ years worth of meta developed with it from the floor up to play the next alliteration of the game they're coming from so its kinda rough and discouraging. We wanted Drift DI back because we developed entire metas around beating characters with that mechanic, then it was subbed out for Melee DI to attract PM/Melee players. We were requesting plat boosting back, told no we don't want that in our game. So long rant shorten basically a lot of the unique things that were to rivals were gutted in favor of being more like melee/PM. And if ever asked for them back we were faced with backlash from melee/pm players saying get good scrubs. I can also understand trying to draw in melee/pm players into the game as a marketing tactic as well. They have a rich history in both those games and with recent events with Nintendo it makes sense trying to get that slice of the market but the Smash community has a reputation of going "we want to play the new game here" get tired of it quick and return to their old games. Which, as good as this game has been, has a high probability that it won't be that way and will be the placeholder till the next smash game but its still a thought. So often it feels like in the rivals community that they'll get left with the scraps of what we were hoping to be a better R1 when that happens and the old community feels very left out after years of supporting Dan and his devs. So I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe its not really being pissed off with the Melee players themselves as much as an older brother resenting a younger one because mom gives them more gifts on Christmas. In time it'll all chill out whenever the communities meld together.
@@briannorris8356 that’s a great analogy you gave at the end regarding Christmas. I really do think it’s kinda strange that things like plat boosting and Drift DI didn’t stay in. I get no wall jumps out of pratfall and nerfing a lot of characters frame data across the board but man. Drift DI should’ve really stayed. But who knows, if overwatch can bring back 6v6 and multiversus shields, I think rivals 1 fans can get drift DI added back. I only played 50 or so hours of r1 but man I feel bad for yall frfr.
I'm brand new to fighters in general and this game's accessibility is the only reason that I have played it and keep wanting to play it. I also am of the opinion that a game with high accessibility can still have the depth required for hard core players to continue to enjoy. Striking that balance is real hard for sure but Accessibility and Skill Ceiling are not ENTIRELY connected. I have always been a PC FPS player so controller skill is something that I've NEVER developed. The fact that I can do some of the most basic stuff without sitting there and just practicing for an hour a day is really helpful. But I still constantly misinput with short/full hop or dashing when I wanna pivot and shit. I can't even imagine the time that it'd take me to learn the game if it was even more mechanically complex with how wave dashing and shit works in melee (from what i've heard, never played)
Completely agreed. Rivals 1 was a perfect example of accessibility and ease-of-input without sacrificing mechanical depth/meaningful option breadth. Accessibility in multiplayer games often gets conflated with "dumbing down" when it simply isn't the case... when done right. Mario Kart 8's smart steering and Street Fighter 6's Modern controls are great examples of this as they let you play and get to grips alongside the established playerbase, but most importantly they bake-in a trade off for choosing to use these assists. Mario Kart 8 doesn't allow you to get Purple Mini Turbos and limits shortcut access without consuming a mushroom and SF6 reducing your damage output by 20% and limits combo routing, respectively. Rivals 2 doesn't necessarily have a trade off, but - by making the universal mechanics easy to perform yet hard to correctly employ 100% of the time - it's a real recipe for success. I definitely appreciate it as someone who adores watching Melee, but can't consistently wavedash or L-cancel to save my life. The fact it's a happy medium between Melee and Ult was always what sold Rivals to me. Glad to hear it's been a great first experience for you so far!
It also makes the counter options easier though. One of the most annoying parts about Melee as a noob is that you need really good wavedashes out of shield to punish almost anything. This requires grinding the shieldlag timing for *every* relevant move. If you don't have this relatively difficult execution and knowledge down, you will get cheesed to hell and back by Fox / Marth / Sheik tilts, Puff aerials, Falcon aerials, Falco laser, etc. To the point where the game is basically unplayable if the opponent abuses this.
I understand why people are defensive of criticism, because games live or die by public reception, and sometimes just blind hating on a game is disguised as criticism. I've lost interest in games like starcraft after the "joke" of 'daed game' being repeated by redditors for 2 years. You though, are obviously praising the game and like it and are promoting it, so they are wrongly getting defensive about people like you. Also I was really happy with the shield changes, and in doubles I think shield breaks happen a lot more, but I think for singles it still doesn't happen as often as it could I think there could be another positive change in that direction.
People just gotta learn to understand when someone is critiquing a game because they think it’s bad vs because they already like the game and KNOW it can be even better.
I think a big thing is the combo game doesn't feel like it has the risk reward of melee. often with combos there will be the most "optimal" safe path, and more rewarding but risky options throughout that can allow you to extend the combo by hard reading your opponent's DI, those don't feel particularly prevelant in RoA2
I think the issue with recovery really has to be solved in 1 of 2 ways. Either move towards melee and say goodbye to the Rivals Walljump stuff, or move towards rivals and nerf the ledge hard. One thing I'd be really interested to see is if getting to ledge didn't refresh your air options. Like, if you use your jump offstage and grab ledge, you can't do an invincible aerial from ledge. If you use your air dodge offstage and grab ledge you can't ledgedash. You only get them back when you actually get your feet on the ground, either by doing Normal Getup, Ledge attack, or roll. So if you knock someone deep offstage and they do get back to ledge, their options are WAY more limited and likely to be punished, or their recovery has to be WAY more linear if they want to have options when they get to ledge.
Crouch cancelling in this game is really fucking annoying, feels like low percent you HAVE to grab because doing anything else will get you punished on hit
1. I don't see the flack from rivals 1 players, but that's mainly because i only know the top level players like cake assult and zeebee, and both of them don't really project themselves or argue with melee players as far as i know. 2. 100% agree with recoveries needing to be toned down. My suggestion personally is to start with something minor like if you air dodge, you have to wait 10-15 frames before you can grab ledge, that way, if you air dodge and the person hanging on ledge lets go to edge guard you, there's no chance that they will grab ledge and punish you. Hdr used to allow you to grab ledges and that was the go-to for recoveries because it was so safe.
It's just crazy to me that even people who haven't played much of the original Rivals of Aether can see how many problems that bringing a Shield and a Ledge into the game has needlessly complicated things. The original game nearly perfected the formula, but people wouldn't jump in and play without these familiar systems.
Mango is spitting; I agree with pretty much everything here. I think they should definitely only let you wall jump once per airtime. It is a problem that you can pretty much just live forever as long as you're close enough to the wall. Like imagine if you got your double jump back every time you get hit: it would suck, so why do we allow it with wall jumps then when they're both pretty much just as important for recovering?
Mang0 you are honestly just a Platform Fighter Savant. The things you love you have a crazy amount of knowledge and insight about. You a spitting in this video especially at 17:15 till the end. Besides the Jmook stuff we need more Shieks like him. The down throw tech chases he does remind me of your Falco towers and who doesn’t love those?
Fighting games arn't easy. Maybe RoA2 is easy compared to melee, project M ect... but, I think we should remember that us fighting game players are crazy and stop underestimating this genres complexity. Hell, I tried to make some people play Brawlhalla and they felt THAT was hard and RoA2 must be at least 5x tougher.
We also forget the grind sometimes haha. I remember Mango saying "Fox really isn't that hard to play" and I'm like hmmmm...I think you may have forgotten what the grind is like lol.
17:21 This and the next point go together, i think a good way to nerf recoveries without directly taking the RoA personality out of it, is by buffing spikes, make them actually powerful and satisfying to hit if it's going down, put special sfx on it, don't just make it feel like any other hit, i think that's the only thing i'm missing from Smash in this game, and that would be a perfect solution for the recovery problem.
Spikes definitely have a unique sound and hitlag to accompany it. But if you want something more then it becomes another hassle because this is a subjective point. The satisfaction of certain hits.
@@curse5697 they literally don't sound the same... I'm not even trying to insult you but they do not sound the same. as for the knockback point yeah knockback in general in this game feels weird. You don't knock people down at like 60% sometimes...with aerials that kill/spike
13:40 The fact they're allowed to compete in tournaments is crazy. Even Ultimate prevented pro players who helped with the game competing for like 6-12 motnhs.
In a sea of corporate feeling PC over-produced youtube content, Mang always makes me smile, opening a fuckin ms paint document and just telling me what he thinks of Rivals.
I was thinking about what Mango said about recovery and survivability in the game few and I wonder if high survivability and recoverability suggests that more risks and play need to happen in the drop zone, then. It only makes sense that you should be pushing that kind of okay if everyone can recover so well
Shield+DashDance+Floorfucking. You fucking nailed it. This game is so fucking unfun at times when you've got bastards who que for ranked to not play the game. 10/10, Absolutely spot on!
the worst part is if u want to win at anything above 1100 u HAVE to do those things back. atleast as some characters i only really play orcane and trying to play neutral like i would in melee just doesnt work. u gotta play non interaction the game
@@Keyourasa ha, so that's why I'm stuck at ~1200, I'm too stubborn to not hold forward :D I'll keep calling it a skill issue and try to power through tho, I just hate camping too much
A lot of non smash attacks have badically no knockback growth so all kills come from only a few attacks/smashes and custom combos are somewhat scripted vs melee. Also, floor hugging is ridiculously strong. DI down and CC work at way too high of percents because of the low knockback growth. Add in the insane recoveries and it is plain to see why it is somewhat stale quickly.
@wiki-dg3fc when attacks have so little knockback it is worse. Often time you get attacked for attacking even at percents higher than in melee on characters like Kragg.
Definitely agree with the community bit. Stopped playing the first one because people were just so weird, toxic, or just plain lame. Barely met any friends in that community, and I often come away from different communities with at least 1 or 2 people I keep in contact with
I'm new to platform fighters the most experience I've had with them was brawlhalla, I've really come to enjoy the genre over the past week of me getting addicted to Rivals of Aether 2. Goated game. I really hope it does well.
great points. I'm coming from ultimate and to me RoA2 feels like playing melee except my skill level transfers because of the low tech barrier. I can just focus on playing instead of worrying about tech. That being said, I wonder if that would get boring, cause it feels like it's easy to hit the ceiling right now, mainly because it's rather obivous what is good and what is not, so neutral becomes somewhat less important when fishing is so much better. Anyway, excited to play this game more!! It's so much fun. Many great opinions from Mango here
The grab spam comes partly from how strong shields are, but partly from how scramble heavy the low % game is. Sooo many moves send you nowhere at 0 and with no hitstun either, meanwhile, everybody gets a tech chase throw at 0 and most of the cast has an overall good grab game at any percent. They should tweek some tilts to have stronger base knockback and nerf most characters grab general grab game
An underrated benefit of easy tech is that it’s better for player health. Melee is gonna be giving some people arthritis fr 😂 And easy tech means not destroying controllers as much.
Long-time Rivals player here. Lots of things to fix, but glad they made it at least fun before a full launch. And yer DAMN RIGHT you're gonna make money off this game, money in is money out is money in babeeeyyy
Nah the goat is spitting you can tell how bad someone is when someone is only doing the same option in EVERY scenario. Ranno gets a lead watch them spam F-air. Want to shield pressure? F-air, someone tickled your toes under a platform? F-air. Having a wank? F-air. Ranno using fair for every interaction online gets real old real quick. It is the same for Clairens approaching only with their slow ass D-airs or grabs which you can parry the first with little issue and have to remember that she's Marth so her grab range is longer than a platform despite being a tiny tim. Don't get me started on the myriad neutral B's of Lox. But all of these aren't issues that stop me from enjoying the game. THAT GOES TO THE SERVER SENDING MY ASS TO TORONTO WHERE I HAVE THE SHITTIEST CONNECTION OUT OF MY SERVER POOL.
Maybe not easy but more consistent. it puts you straight to the core gameplay, strategy and mind games without you having to practice your whole life to those sh11tty melee mechanics that does not work half the time anyway due to its really inconsistent nature. and there are patch notes, which means its open for improvement unlike melee.
I as a pretty mid plat fighter player (1000ish gold) pretty quickly started to feel a bit of that staleness, but ive recently been having a lot of fun w the mind game/ baiting aspect of the game. I see how strong defensive options force less engaging gameplay aggression-wise, but then it kinda feels more like street fighter with a heavier bait and punish game.
I think edgeguarding would be more interesting if it worked more like in rivals 1. Everyone has a wall jump and a second recovery after it but the recoveries are over all worse. It would add more mix ups and path variety for the recovering person while the one edgeguarding would have more options since recoveries over all would be less effective at fending off edge guards, all without actually nerfing recoveries too much. I think being able to recover from very far away on average can be made very fun but right now it is very straightforward and in favor of the person trying to recover. I think adding the wall jumps after recoveries back while toning down every recovery move in the game would make for far more interesting interactions than what it currently is.
Coming from thousands of hours in ultimate I find the tech skill in this game a bit more difficult. Because movement is so heavy with constant wave dashing it makes me feel like trash but I'm still having fun. One thing that I love is you could link jabs into other abilities because of low end lag which is really cool. I'm excited to see what this patch has.
As a ult player I agree on the way the rivals 1 community reacts, tho I feel like PM/some melee players are almost more annoying every time it's about something from melee/PM, especially about floorhugging, I've heard shit like "game wouldn't be balanced competitively without it" like oh yeah let's throw everybody's fun away for the sake of competition (this argument is even really shitty on the fact it guarantees healthy competition since rivals 1 didn't have it, and ultimate didn't have it and definitely had potential to be balanced if the devs didn't design the characters so randomly).
Floorhugging complaints come from a lack of understanding and experience for the most part. The complaints weren’t “how do I deal with this” it was bursting through the door and saying “this needs to be removed.”
@@Oakwin_mb NO dude floorhugging is just overtuned and not fun. It turns early game into a camp fest. It even makes early game melee mad boring and PM isn't a problem with it usually because how PM did characters. A mechanic should feel intuitive and fun which floorhugging is not. You are pointing out exactly what OP is talking about with the you just don't get it talk. Most people do get it and a majority of people still think its garbage addition even some still hate CC.
@@Oakwin_mb Well no, the complete sentence of most complaints was "I hit a hard read deserved f-smash at 120% and the oponent deleted completely the knockback just sdi-ing down on a move with a lot of hitstun". Again I come from ult and here there are also a bunch of moves that are unsafe on hit at low percent to modify neutral, but here the fact that it continues like this even at mid and high percent makes things revolve around a select few moves way too much, amongst which over 50% are grabs. Imo you shouldn't be able to floorhug things that send into tumble considering how many defensive options you have.
@@cyprienramis1304 Yep. Its almost like melee is not the shining example of how a platfighter should be or something. Powershields if easier would make shielding in melee broken, floorhugging makes even early game melee super campy. Pm doesn't usually have these issues cause of how strong they made characters hit. Its really dumb and unintuitive that you can cancel someone's read and win in neutral on reaction by just tapping down. CC can be cool but shields already exist. I feel like Rivals 1 was a massive fluke in some regards. As it currently stands i would rather play ultimate than even think of Rivals 2. Sure ultimate is also pretty campy but its also genuine with how most exchanges play out.
I don't fully agree with the shielding bit, but it also kinda makes sense, since it came from Rivals 1 with no grabs and shield. I assume it's just going to be growing pains and will. I also think the game would do well with or without you, lol. I do fully agree with the community being pretty meh and needs to be more open minded and welcoming. We do all want the game to succeed, 100 % agree with you on that and people needing to realize it.
He's saying that the floor (accessibility) is pretty high, which is a good thing. But the ceiling (top-tier) is a bit low because of the "cons". Ex: Foresburn just needs to setup FSmash or USmash because they're overpowered in range and strength. Edge guarding is a must, but the above is much much easier for confirming a stock.
Street fighter went through the same thing. 4 was really hard so in 5 they made everything really easy so there would be more new players. The problem is if everyone can do everything all the time then it isn't special. You need there to be really hard stuff that only >1% can do while having enough easy stuff so that the majority of people can still play. In street fighter terms, lets say you have hit, hit, special, DP (uppercut). You could have the window for a light uppercut that deals less damage be really big and therefore easy to hit so that new players could still do the combo, and have a small window for a heavy dragon punch that does more damage. Then you have people saying "Oh that guy's good he's doing the really hard combo." Don't know much about smash games so I don't know what that would be in a smash game but yeah.
that's what I love about sf4, and plat fighters are really fun because of how differently people can do combos there probably is a bread n butter small guaranteed combo for a lot of situations, but combo depth and complexity are purely based off how much you know how to extend with your character and how far you can go... and the things is that it isn't always going to be 100% true either, since you've got to take directional influence (holding in towards or away from the attacker) and other defensive techniques this goes for almost all platform fighters, and games like melee, rivals 1 & 2 (plus other games I probably haven't listed) get done really well, especially with the multiple ways you can hit with a single move based on when you hit it, and what part of the attack you hit them with give the game a try, the combo system is so diverse (in a good way) that you can kinda invent your own unique combo style rivals 2 is definitely one of those games with a currently high skill floor due to all the smash players are flocking to it currently, but I know a lot of new people playing the game too, plus it's pretty cheap if you do though, you'll have to look for a community made tutorial though, since there's isn't one fully implemented in the game just yet
Game's tough. :P My biggest gripe is that while the core is great, it's too tough and bare bones right now. I'd like some more flash and bells and whistles. For MVS it's the opposite: the core is still janky as heck but I enjoy the presentation way more.
Every community on the internet is annoying. Smash reddit treats mang0 so horribly it's sickening. They used to do it to hbox too when he was #1. The problem is the internet letxs you be an asshole without any recourse. Basically anything someone says on the internet may as well not exist because it's just cruel, toxic or kvetchy.
I'm in gold-ish ELO and I feel like most of those cons don't apply as much down here as they seem to at the top. Hopefully this means there'll be a big community of mid players to support the game while it gets refined at the top level!
i agree with the edge guarding. I think they can fix this with having more stages the have some empty space / float about the kill zone. it makes teching the spikes and guards so much more difficult. When the wall edges extend down into infinity, anyone can hit a tech.
@@koryhawes2548 rivals 1 didn't have the edgeguarding issue because most of the cast was practically _forced_ to walljump for their recovery, leaving them plenty of space to get dunked. Recoveries also just...felt slower in rivals 1? I don't know how to put it.
As a pm player that mostly plays melee nowadays, I started to notice how 'scripted' and fabricated the increased accessibility made the game feel compared to melee. It's kinda a paradox where melee has many flaws that no sane game developer would intentionally include, but these flaws make for such a dynamic meta game because someone can find new uses for a bad or niche move or even whole character after 20 years. PM, and now Rivals 2, don't have this level of natural beauty and everything feels designed to do a certain task or fill a certain role. When this happens, the game feels stale. I do think that the meta needs more time to develop before making drastic changes though. To address your point about the cracked players, I've poured thousands of hours into pm and melee but most of my tech skill and muscle memory are still based on pm, so when I play a melee character that I'm not intimately familiar with in specifically melee, I often find myself messing things up. I therefore have my mains in either game and the only overlap really is Peach. Now moving to rivals 2, I am very familiar with all the mechanics that carry over from smash, even the pm tech, but it's all a bit easier to perform which makes my average level of play much higher. My point is that while I might spend half the match trying to shield drop or ledge dash in melee instead of actually fighting my opponent, I don't have that issue in rivals 2. This means that I can get right to playing the opponent, making the meta appear advanced more quickly than what melee has had. It also means that the skill gap is much lesser which may make for a less engaging game in the long run, but we'll see.
I think any community that is primarily based online can seem more shit than most. Rivals has a primarily online community as there was barely a local scene for most people, so people act as you'd expect when online. Not gonna act like I haven't been an asshole before either, so my criticism comes from a genuine place. I think if this game succeeds, and more states/countries grow in-person communities, a lot of the negative aspects of the community will seem less upfront. Even tho I am a Rivals 1 enjoyer far more, I still want to game to reach a high close to modern day Smash and not just a Discord VC ass game with a couple regionals and supermajors spinkled in.
Mango furry timeline, they fix all the problems with rivals, he goes to a furry orgy, gets a fursuit head, competes with the head on at every rivals tournament
if they eliminated the delay if you hit someone’s shield and still allowed you to hit fall it would allow every character to add more shield pressure and make for more interesting neutral
@@cdntl It's less about them liking before it was cool and more about how they backed the game on the promise of getting Rivals 2 and then instead got a game that gutted a lot of mechanics that defined the feel of the original. In combination with the devs & publisher more focusing on using Smash players who dismissed the original rather than the people who have stuck around to make Rivals 2 possible in the first place. Not that I entirely agree with them but I can understand that from their perspective it can feel like they've been used and then thrown to the wayside.
The point about the Rivals community is so true. It is also very silly, considering how different RoA 1 and 2 are. RoA 2 is a whole different game, Rivals 1 veterans don't know it that well either.
I agree with a lot of this, and I’m sure the game will get tweaks as it moves on to address ground game and shielding, but the “no kreygasm” complaint seems a bit much. The only reason we have the expectation of a kill confirm at 60% is because melee taught us to expect that, and melee was never designed to be a competitive platform fighter. Those low percent kills are because high level competitive players cracked a system that was never meant to handle it. Rivals seems to set its minimum bar closer to 100%, and that honestly makes sense to me. An opponent surviving past 100 only feels like being deprived of dopamine because that’s how melee trained us to think about percentages. Rivals isn’t melee. It’s built for competition, not adapted for it.
I personally think that edge guarding is more of an option than people are giving it credit for. Every character having a good recovery means that every character also has the ability to go off stage, but compared to smash going for an edge guard in this game is much much more of a risk. Rivals 1 had insane ledge trapping dominance due to there being no ledge it was almost always safer, and easier to get more damage off of them trying to recover to stage. With that being said though edge guarding provided a far greater reward. I main maypul and I get absolutely COOKED by people who actually edge guard me as even tiny small hits annihilate maypul's recovery. That being said I also believe that maypul has a pretty strong off stage game, I just understand that I'm not good enough with the kit to safely get what I want out of edgeguarding. It will be interesting to see how it develops over time, but I'd be surprised if edge guarding isn't seen more in this game than it was in rivals 1.
Street fighter player here! Sf6 is only easier for things like 'modern mode' Besides that its pretty much the same as 5. Sf4 had ALOT more 1 frame links and more difficult characters such as c.viper, el fuerte, etc. Lastly neutral overall was much more fast paced as well.
I generally agree with Mango, but I think the problem he's seeing is because we have a small-ish obsessed community. We're all downloading each others strategies, and we havent had enough time or patches or additions to fully try everything. I have been using my non-meta throws every game just to look for new routes or options to punish predictable DI.
Been a rivals 1 player for a long time and there is so much angsty autism in the community its not really a suprise that people are so gatekeepy Edit: The amount of takes ive seen from other rivals 1 players that are seemingly completely unaware playing THE SEQUEL and NOT rivals 1 anymore is astounding. They act like nothing about this game has changed except the graphics? They think every character is on the exact same level as before and shield and grab has changed NOTHING. Its bizarre
@ oh certainly. When I see Rivals players acting shitty to other communities I always call it out, even if they get butthurt at me. We can’t afford that as a community, look at how often platform fighters die. We want y’all to play our game with us cuz we like it, and we like having an active game. There’s no need for egos and infighting.
Yeah uh, can we normalize this. I agree with all of this. Some of the issues design wise for this game weren’t even problematic in rivals 1. It’s ok for games to change, not every dev decision is holy and untouchable.
I love everything about the game but my 1 gripe is how unsafe arials are on shield... How am I supposed to poke/approach from the air? I try to space an arial and I get shield grabbed the moment my attack makes contact with a shield. If it's supposed to be Rock, Paper, Scissors, why are Shield and Grab always the best option??
Give every spike in the game a smallish hit-box that makes it un-tech-able. Feel like that would make edgeguarding as a whole more interesting since it introduces more of a risk/reward to edgeguarding. Maybe some spikes you don't add this to, similar to Falco/Marth's spikes vs. Captain Falcon's dair, you probably don't need something like this on like Ranno Fair, Wrastor Down strong, or Kragg Down B.
@@Rhakimdar spikes in this game are allowed to be way stronger and more reliable than they are in smash because of the fact that you can tech the wall as counter play, which will be very important for some future characters. hodan, for example, has a upstrong that is a command grab that spikes people off stage, and without walls, kills way to early with no counterplay other than "don't get hit lol".
@@_ERR_404_ Oh I agree for sure! I just thought the Ultimate concept where at like 150% some moves will become untechable, could be a means to offer more rewarding off stage play for killing. It's definitely viable currently but at a high level lots of techs still let people hug the wall to avoid death even at higher percents. But this is just from what I've witnessed I'm sure theres likely a reason it hasn't been implemented as you've mentioned
my youtube is bugged and im watching mango talk about this game while the comment section is about the similarities of the british empire and the western world today.
It could just be because I suck, but the only thing I don't like, is so far there are situations where I shield an attack, dodge roll, tech in place, use my defense tools at my disposal to block/dodge an attack, and I get punished for it, OR even better I get punished for landing an attack. I'll have to play more to pinpoint specific examples. But some interactions have felt really bad, overall LOVE the game though don't get me wrong
I know he said "rivals community bad" but man... rivals 1 legit didn't have a bunch of the issues he has with it. Makes me sad. Some stuff in Rivals 2 I do like, but some of it is just so obviously a clashing between rivals 1 philosophy and rivals 2 wanting to add smash mechanics. So many chars felt so much better. Movement in general was faster and snappier.
Personally i feel like edgeguard is really something in this game, it doesn't look so hard to kill offstage. But I agree on the point a spike at 60 should kill. A point i don't like is crounch cancel, it's really dumb defensive option
I get that everyone is spamming the same 3 things… the game is young. As people learn to deal with those 3 things, new routes will come out to add mix up because there is a lot of untapped combo potential. Edgeguarding is hard now, because we suck at it RN. In a year we’re going to look back and say WTF were we doing? As people get more comfortable with their options and movement off stage, edge guarding will be a more interactive thing. Plus MF plays Zetterburn! Him going off stage is always a liability to himself. Give it at least a few months and the combo routes, punishes, and edgeguarding will grow more intricate… I do agree that something about the dash dancing probably needs to change, maybe making the window to no-slide dash back a bit tighter and adding more options to play with tilts from some sort of dash cancel would be fun. Maybe that already exists?
Having super shaky hands, the low techskill requirement is a godsend for me. Been a huge melee fan for 10 years but couldn't play it. Now I can actually wave dash, shield drop, ledge dash.. it's so sick
Agreed.
Git gud 🤡
@@punkypony5165 atleast youre trying. good on you
i can do dose things and my hands are both broken in 12 places
@@vegaplus420 you are the exact example of why people don't play dawg, it is UNHEALTHY to play like that
As a rivals 1 player, I'm really disappointed to see the rivals community going in the cons list. Almost everyone I met who played rivals 1 was incredibly welcoming and kind to me when I was new, so it sucks to see that isn't the experience for new rivals 2 players. I hope he knows there's a lot of us out there who want the community to grow and don't want to gatekeep.
Yeah, it seems like a good portion of the rivals 1 playerbase is quite disappointed that Rivals 2 turned out more like melee/ultimate and less like rivals 1. It's kinda understandable, though, in the long term, it would be nice if everyone just gets together a try hard to make Rivals 2 a great game, Nintendo needs to go for real.
Pretty sure Mang0 is thinking about Elpe and his twitter antics
Rivals 1 players seem to want to say that all the characters are balanced and they just aren’t. I don’t really get it but the rivals people seem totally in denial that there are broken characters.
@@chw14556 that's the thing though, every character is broken. it was the same in rivals 1, everyone had broken dumb stuff that was fun to execute, but not as fun to get hit by. i don't think a single person had fun in a match where ori fair > bashed them off the side at 30%, or getting hit by ranno's di mixup on whether fair is gonna sweet spot or sour spot. in rivals 1 every character had haters, and they were all justified. iirc maypul was considered to be one of the least gimmicky characters and she still would tether dair to start combos, or tether into up air or fair to kill regardless of your di.
every character is broken, you've gotta ask yourself if you are okay with that level of balance if you wanna keep playing the game.
Leffen elaborated on this better I feel. He said "I've only met 2 kinds of Rivals 1 players...half of them are super nice and the other half are complete douches with no in between!". Now granted...I wouldn't put it past Leff to have exaggerated that last part (or the internet skewing the results a bit) but I thought it was nice he at least acknowledged the nice Rivals 1 players! lol :P
Definitely agree with the shielding. I think if more aerials had a better state against shield, it would fix that problem. Right now, there is a small amount of pressure. And it makes grabbing so much better when people just block.
for sure, the main thing that bothers me about the game is that almost nobody has good shield pressure
@phlo0p none! And shield grabbing is so good. I can attest, I land way too many shield grabs than I should. They should be more punishable.
@@drstclairif I’m hitting someone’s shield with an aerial I always try to land behind them or space outside of shield grab. Having to drop shield or jump makes a lot of moves safer on shield.
The shield hurtbox is also sooo much smaller than the graphic, so what I think **looks** like a perfectly spaced aerial in fact whiffed their shield, allowing them to punish with whatever they damn please
@@RePlayQthe problem is a massive amount of characters have weird grab ranges that extend past their arm lengths, spacing maypul Nair just to get magnet grabbed by Clairen makes me want to put the controller down lol
As a filthy wrastor player, I agree so hard about the setups to 50-50s and the "oh you missed your chance for your setups, better stack up another 60% really quick so you can kill off a random nair in neutral" part. I never really thought about how edge guarding filled that gap so well. Edge guarding is such a fun mini game to play in melee and either it is not refined in this game yet or recovery is too strong. Good stuff.
the problem is teching and how many things refresh your recovery resources. so many times you'd be able to just kill someone but they instateched off the wall, and now because you hit them they have all their jumps back. compound that with the fact that almost every stage has a big wall that goes all the way down, it just makes recovery too easy and edgeguarding a risk not worth taking 99% of the time.
As a wrastor main we need a buff and shields are overpowered as hell
@@millionshadesofdarkness2165 wrastor fair was insanely busted during the KS betas he actually had to get nerfed ever so slightly
Honestly really well-spoken with a ton of good points. The offense/defense balance is always a tightrope walk but I still think it leans a bit too much into defense right now (the giant keepaway stages with low ban numbers don't help), and I agree that the expressiveness in the game is gonna be a problem as is. Still in favour of tuning down the egregious stuff rather than adding a bunch of execution barriers, if options were more equally appealing then the options you went for would feel more personalized, right now a lot of characters look too similar regardless of who's playing them.
As a rivals 1 player its disappointing to see that some of the smaller stages that came back are just huge now.
@@Zimran03 Yeah I almost didn't recognize Fire Capital because that shit is absolutely massive compared to 1 lol. I think it's fine to have a couple big stages but there's like 4 stages that are quite big.
@@quarium5681 Also the rock wall is known for its small blastzones and as a smaller stage yet it’s freaking huge in rivals 2
@@Zimran03 i honestly wonder if they'll just tone down the size of the stages directly. It would be really funny
I love how Mango is getting absolutely blasted by his monitor showing a full white image
Lmfaooooo, I can’t unsee it
14:27
Bro was seeing god and all his angels on that mf
@@bobwall8021 😂😂😂
I agree with the no edge guarding and kreygasm criticisms the most, Edge guarding should always be the dominant option over Ledge trapping otherwise the game loses sauce and becomes lame
I swear mango is such a breath of fresh air after seeing so many people shit on every complaint in the subreddit. As if the game is perfect, nothing is wrong, and things feeling bad don't matter as long as there's technically counterplay
My man, absolutely every fucking thing anyone says about anything online anymore, ESPECIALLY in regards to video games, is negative as shit. Some of us just want to be able to likea cool new thing for at least a week or two before the shittification form all angles begins, but there's always clowns like you going around going "OH MY GOD THIS ONE GUY WHO BASHES THE GAME IS SUCH A BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!!!! I HATE POSITIVITY!!!! FUCK THIS GAME!!!!!!! anyone who doesn't hate it is a TOXIC POSITIVITY LOSER WHO THINKS IT HAS NO FLAWS OBVIOUSLY!!!!!!!" And I see this damn same mentality all the time, everywhere, constantly spouting it like everyonein every community is 'too positive' when the truth is 99.9999999% of everything is too *NEGATIVE* lately and some of us just want out from under it.
Never forget when r/smashbros unironically defended Hero from Ult by saying you could get around his unreactable RNG moves by "not getting hit", basically saying that if he wasn't as broken as Smash 4 Bayo, then he wasn't a problem.
TL;DR Reddit is just as dumb as twitter, they just express it differently! (lol :P)
Hero IS fine, get good
@@spackmoose6002 Hero's problem wasn't that he was broken (He was mid tier from what I remember) its that he had too much RNG which you couldn't always react to...meaning sometime a Hero player could win if they just got lucky. A mid tier can still be badly designed and Hero was one of them (competitively anyways, very fun character casually!)
@@Alienrun Honestly the genuine BIGGEST problem with Hero imo is the lack of a universal UI for his spells.
Hero is genuinely quite a big obstacle for international tournaments solely because of the language barrier to his spells making the matchup so much worse for external factors. Which is a shame to say since Ultimate made a fairly hefty update to a lot of character's UIs (cloud's limit, Robin's spells, etc.)
In retrospect, Hero didn't cause much upsets with RNG.
Kinda' spittin' here tbh! The core argument here that playin' with your homies, or even in locals/tourney is super fun, but the corny shit is too effective when you run into it online, is very sound. This game has honest BONES, the mechanics for edge guarding are there but most of the cast's recovery is safest while approaching the stage, making them the most vulnerable specifically at the ledge rather than in the air. I see lots of excellent edge guards, so I disagree there's no hype there, but you gotta go get 'em and to Mango's point: why do that when you can ledge trap or hunt for your 50/50 instead for a higher chance at success. Same is true for neutral, everyone has a zillion nifty options because their gimmicks are so dynamic, but dashdance/shield beats too many of them. Any non-projectile parry is SO HYPE in this game, but again, why do that when shield is safer, and plenty useful in more situations. So yeah, I think we're a couple patches from an amazing online experience, but when we play friendlies we're playing the true Rivals, avoiding corny shit, playin' for dope moments, freestyling, edge guarding, 'cause the game makes that shit possible and extremely fun.
Amen. Honestly peak platform fighter.
The non projectile parries are the opposite of hype and one of the lamest mechanics I've ever seen in a platform fighter. Really wish they ditched it in rivals 2.
Pros: BLUNT MAN
Cons: BLUNT MAN
Huge Pro I didn't hear you say is that it's fun to watch! As a 10 year melee watcher this is the only other platform fighter that delivers a similar level of hype
fax
Yea game is sick from spectator perspective
Maybe if I got a chance to play the game I’d appreciate watching it more but it looks wack af to me. I guess it’s better than Sonic vs Steve but there are like 70 something other characters in Ult so 🤷🏽
@@newjumpcityjosh9333trust me you’re not hurting yourself giving it a shot. I’ve been a smash fan all my life and i feel like this has all the sauce of a smash bros we should’ve got. The game feels tight, fluid and responsive in a way smash has never felt to me
@@bigshark9567 it’s designed strictly for competitive play and nothing else so that makes sense.
Rivals players love you Mango, hope the vocal minority doesn’t give the general population a bad impression
the damage is already done
straight up the game would be a 10/10 if shielding was way worse and edge guarding was viable. might have to add another stock if people start dying before 150% lol
So true if you don't hit that kill confirm at 80. You ain't killing till 170
@seanqwe100 I remember thinking it was so weird that for super heavyweight, Kragg kills so late and only kills with fair, and everyone thought I was just being weird about that, only to find out "oh wait, he kills it around 140 to 130, while everyone's killing at 170 to 190, that is unless you get a specific kill confirm, in which case he can kill at 40, and everyone can kill at 70, so that's why everyone thinks his kill power is so broken.
Biggest problem with this game is they literally hired an intro narrator to say everyone's names all cool like, then didn't use those clips when you pick them on the character select >:(
when I got called an idiot by the rivals community because I said it was a bad idea to launch the game with no tutorial I knew the community was gonna be a major roadblock to the game's success.
Sure man, one dude calling you an idiot means the whole entire community is bad!
@@koopakape it was actually 14 people but go on keep pretending your keyboard warrior community isn't the problem :3
I'd say no to shield pokes for it to be more noob friendly. Just have the shield hp decay faster as you're holding it. Lower the shield hp by ~15-25%. Then if you're running away to restore shield it should be slow, but if you go on counter offense and land hits it should replenish faster (Like SF6 drive gauge).
You get your shield fully restored by hitting a parry IMO getting shield restored by hitting sounds a bit to much imo but hard agreed on everything else
I just think shield poking is a very dumb mechanic in general and very rarely feels earned. Usually someone gets lucky
Ur just bad
@@zake64 there are people who play for it like anything else. I think it makes shield angling more rewarding.
This game has a ranked system, noobs shield poking each other would be great. They either learn to tilt their shield against a similar skill level or don't. It's the difference between perseverance or just being stubborn. Learn and move on, or be a casual. Both are fine.
Now that I play Clairen, I think how Puff melee players felt all those years talking about how other people hate playing against you.
Honestly it's just that Clairen is so incredibly easy at the lower levels without big weaknesses. I don't even play her, and if I got Space Jammed I would probably pick her against the aliens. Lightning tippers make basically every combo guaranteed without even picking the "right" move for the situation. Her recovery is incredibly annoying to deal with and too punishing if you mess up trying to ledgeguard her. Puff has Bair and Uthrow rest, but that's really her only "cheese" aside from specific matchups (Like crouch spam against Sheik). Even Bair isn't cheese, it's just a really good spacing tool but doesn't lead into anything if you tech away. She still needs a solid read to kill. She dies early and gets camped out really hard. She has terrible moves for coming down from above, and absolutely zero tilt game. I get tilted playing against her sometimes too, but it feels a lot different than fighting Clairen.
I don't even hate fighting clairen that much it's just at the lower levels of ranked it's literally just clairen and loxodant
So, the rivals community is amazing. Tt's the ONLINE rivals community that's ass. The people who don't go to local events are always the worst. You know exactly the types I'm talking about.
Curious because I remember seeing your review on this game, what do you think needs to get balanced? Fun as this is there are definitely a lot of points where it can feel very frustrating.
Considering you've been in the scene 10 years, even if you won't do a video on your channel, it'd be interesting hearing what you think works and doesn't work.
@@praetorian9823 Honestly nothing major. Some characters are overtuned (Maypul, Wrastor, Fleet) Mean while lox is a little under tuned. Even then I wouldn't change much. I generally love how the game plays.
Some of us can't afford to go to events or live too far away
If these are Mango's takes then the game is probably doing pretty good
Big agree on most things mentioned here. I will say the vision for this game isn't to be melee junior, but I think you already went over that in that melee did a lot of things well and there's no harm in taking those aspects and trying to make them even better. As a "Rivals 1 player" I appreciate you making content and doing your part to help the game succeed :)
Here’s my interpretation of why it seems like a lot of rivals players do not like smash players/have animosity towards us (not trying to be petty, disrespectful or rude. All love.): many are fundamentally very upset that we didn’t latch on to rivals 1 with all its uniqueness, and because of that they feel like Dan made the game more like smash to finally get us to join. It’s a fact that rivals 1 was not doing very well towards the end of its lifecycle (which is pretty normal) and that if Dan made rivals 2 like they wanted (drift di, pixel art, no shields or ledges, wall jump out of prat fall) the numbers would not be nearly as good as they are now. Not only do many resent Dan for not just making rivals 2 in the way they wanted, but they resent us for essentially proving Dan right that the PM route was the best way to go success-wise. If we would’ve fallen in love with rivals 1, then a lot of them would feel rivals 2 wouldn’t have become like PM. Part of that is on the devs tho, cause like they could’ve made it more like PM but kept some stuff like drift DI in or make characters like wrastor feel sooo much worse.
So, on top of the fact that sometimes smashers will default take over a community at the start (nasb) then ditch it later, and the fact that smashers have also gotten special treatment that some of their own haven’t gotten (extra spots at invitationals, rivals 2 at the main stage at rivals 1 last real genesis) they are annoyed at everything we do.
you're not wrong for the most part. And I'm not trying to attack or be rude or anything just giving a perspective of a rivals player , granted a pretty new generation one since I've definitely spent more time in smash, but have grown fond of the rivals community as a whole in the last couple of years and listening to the old heads about the game. I think some of it also has to do with it feels like for the Rivals community our request and thoughts are often put on a back burner in favor of Melee/PM. I don't think that everyone wanted to keep the pixelated artwork (I do know some did but majority didn't care, and I'm certain there were some that did but end of day this isn't a game killer), and I think majority of players are ok with the loss of being able to wall jump out of prat because it would of made recovery broken. But stuff like Drift DI being taken out kinda stinks because it was a cool mechanic from R1, Shields and grabs are ok, but the inclusion of like CC/FH plus having parry really made an aggressive game more defensive, which by the very wording here its the opposite of the original game, but does welcome in new communities. Whenever the rivals community goes "what the heck why is my combo structure not working" because of the FH in the game they were then immediately attacked by PM/HDR/Melee players saying its a skill issue, games like this require this mechanic, which leaves the Rivals community baffled because we had a very fast pace aggressive game without it and it was still fun, but their opinions get ignored because "its just in the game get over it" was thrown in their faces a lot, so a lot of them are now having to learn a mechanic that isn't really intuitive that also has 20+ years worth of meta developed with it from the floor up to play the next alliteration of the game they're coming from so its kinda rough and discouraging. We wanted Drift DI back because we developed entire metas around beating characters with that mechanic, then it was subbed out for Melee DI to attract PM/Melee players. We were requesting plat boosting back, told no we don't want that in our game. So long rant shorten basically a lot of the unique things that were to rivals were gutted in favor of being more like melee/PM. And if ever asked for them back we were faced with backlash from melee/pm players saying get good scrubs. I can also understand trying to draw in melee/pm players into the game as a marketing tactic as well. They have a rich history in both those games and with recent events with Nintendo it makes sense trying to get that slice of the market but the Smash community has a reputation of going "we want to play the new game here" get tired of it quick and return to their old games. Which, as good as this game has been, has a high probability that it won't be that way and will be the placeholder till the next smash game but its still a thought. So often it feels like in the rivals community that they'll get left with the scraps of what we were hoping to be a better R1 when that happens and the old community feels very left out after years of supporting Dan and his devs. So I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe its not really being pissed off with the Melee players themselves as much as an older brother resenting a younger one because mom gives them more gifts on Christmas. In time it'll all chill out whenever the communities meld together.
@@briannorris8356 that’s a great analogy you gave at the end regarding Christmas. I really do think it’s kinda strange that things like plat boosting and Drift DI didn’t stay in. I get no wall jumps out of pratfall and nerfing a lot of characters frame data across the board but man. Drift DI should’ve really stayed. But who knows, if overwatch can bring back 6v6 and multiversus shields, I think rivals 1 fans can get drift DI added back. I only played 50 or so hours of r1 but man I feel bad for yall frfr.
@@Beastmd this was a pleasant response! It's nice when the TH-cam comment section isn't toxic
@@briannorris8356 of course friend!
Dan didn’t make it more like melee to appease melee players though, he has said rivals 2 is how he wanted rivals 1 to be
I'm brand new to fighters in general and this game's accessibility is the only reason that I have played it and keep wanting to play it. I also am of the opinion that a game with high accessibility can still have the depth required for hard core players to continue to enjoy. Striking that balance is real hard for sure but Accessibility and Skill Ceiling are not ENTIRELY connected. I have always been a PC FPS player so controller skill is something that I've NEVER developed. The fact that I can do some of the most basic stuff without sitting there and just practicing for an hour a day is really helpful. But I still constantly misinput with short/full hop or dashing when I wanna pivot and shit. I can't even imagine the time that it'd take me to learn the game if it was even more mechanically complex with how wave dashing and shit works in melee (from what i've heard, never played)
Completely agreed. Rivals 1 was a perfect example of accessibility and ease-of-input without sacrificing mechanical depth/meaningful option breadth.
Accessibility in multiplayer games often gets conflated with "dumbing down" when it simply isn't the case... when done right. Mario Kart 8's smart steering and Street Fighter 6's Modern controls are great examples of this as they let you play and get to grips alongside the established playerbase, but most importantly they bake-in a trade off for choosing to use these assists. Mario Kart 8 doesn't allow you to get Purple Mini Turbos and limits shortcut access without consuming a mushroom and SF6 reducing your damage output by 20% and limits combo routing, respectively.
Rivals 2 doesn't necessarily have a trade off, but - by making the universal mechanics easy to perform yet hard to correctly employ 100% of the time - it's a real recipe for success. I definitely appreciate it as someone who adores watching Melee, but can't consistently wavedash or L-cancel to save my life. The fact it's a happy medium between Melee and Ult was always what sold Rivals to me. Glad to hear it's been a great first experience for you so far!
The paradox of accessibility in these kinds of games is that it also makes all the noob-stomping bullsh!t accessible as well.
Noobs gonna get stomped no matter what, letting noobs use expressive movement mechanics in about 3 seconds is worth the price I think.
It also makes the counter options easier though. One of the most annoying parts about Melee as a noob is that you need really good wavedashes out of shield to punish almost anything. This requires grinding the shieldlag timing for *every* relevant move. If you don't have this relatively difficult execution and knowledge down, you will get cheesed to hell and back by Fox / Marth / Sheik tilts, Puff aerials, Falcon aerials, Falco laser, etc. To the point where the game is basically unplayable if the opponent abuses this.
Good! If someone gets their ass kicked by a tech, they're a lot more likely to stick around if they can figure out how to do it themselves.
Happy Mango is just the best vibe
Shield stun is the thing that needs to be fixed.
I understand why people are defensive of criticism, because games live or die by public reception, and sometimes just blind hating on a game is disguised as criticism. I've lost interest in games like starcraft after the "joke" of 'daed game' being repeated by redditors for 2 years. You though, are obviously praising the game and like it and are promoting it, so they are wrongly getting defensive about people like you.
Also I was really happy with the shield changes, and in doubles I think shield breaks happen a lot more, but I think for singles it still doesn't happen as often as it could I think there could be another positive change in that direction.
People just gotta learn to understand when someone is critiquing a game because they think it’s bad vs because they already like the game and KNOW it can be even better.
I think a big thing is the combo game doesn't feel like it has the risk reward of melee. often with combos there will be the most "optimal" safe path, and more rewarding but risky options throughout that can allow you to extend the combo by hard reading your opponent's DI, those don't feel particularly prevelant in RoA2
“Get it done Dan Fornicate” 🤣 that part killed me.
I think the issue with recovery really has to be solved in 1 of 2 ways. Either move towards melee and say goodbye to the Rivals Walljump stuff, or move towards rivals and nerf the ledge hard.
One thing I'd be really interested to see is if getting to ledge didn't refresh your air options. Like, if you use your jump offstage and grab ledge, you can't do an invincible aerial from ledge. If you use your air dodge offstage and grab ledge you can't ledgedash. You only get them back when you actually get your feet on the ground, either by doing Normal Getup, Ledge attack, or roll.
So if you knock someone deep offstage and they do get back to ledge, their options are WAY more limited and likely to be punished, or their recovery has to be WAY more linear if they want to have options when they get to ledge.
Crouch cancelling in this game is really fucking annoying, feels like low percent you HAVE to grab because doing anything else will get you punished on hit
1. I don't see the flack from rivals 1 players, but that's mainly because i only know the top level players like cake assult and zeebee, and both of them don't really project themselves or argue with melee players as far as i know.
2. 100% agree with recoveries needing to be toned down. My suggestion personally is to start with something minor like if you air dodge, you have to wait 10-15 frames before you can grab ledge, that way, if you air dodge and the person hanging on ledge lets go to edge guard you, there's no chance that they will grab ledge and punish you. Hdr used to allow you to grab ledges and that was the go-to for recoveries because it was so safe.
It's just crazy to me that even people who haven't played much of the original Rivals of Aether can see how many problems that bringing a Shield and a Ledge into the game has needlessly complicated things. The original game nearly perfected the formula, but people wouldn't jump in and play without these familiar systems.
Mango is spitting; I agree with pretty much everything here. I think they should definitely only let you wall jump once per airtime. It is a problem that you can pretty much just live forever as long as you're close enough to the wall. Like imagine if you got your double jump back every time you get hit: it would suck, so why do we allow it with wall jumps then when they're both pretty much just as important for recovering?
Mang0 you are honestly just a Platform Fighter Savant. The things you love you have a crazy amount of knowledge and insight about. You a spitting in this video especially at 17:15 till the end. Besides the Jmook stuff we need more Shieks like him. The down throw tech chases he does remind me of your Falco towers and who doesn’t love those?
Fighting games arn't easy. Maybe RoA2 is easy compared to melee, project M ect... but, I think we should remember that us fighting game players are crazy and stop underestimating this genres complexity. Hell, I tried to make some people play Brawlhalla and they felt THAT was hard and RoA2 must be at least 5x tougher.
We also forget the grind sometimes haha. I remember Mango saying "Fox really isn't that hard to play" and I'm like hmmmm...I think you may have forgotten what the grind is like lol.
17:21 This and the next point go together, i think a good way to nerf recoveries without directly taking the RoA personality out of it, is by buffing spikes, make them actually powerful and satisfying to hit if it's going down, put special sfx on it, don't just make it feel like any other hit, i think that's the only thing i'm missing from Smash in this game, and that would be a perfect solution for the recovery problem.
Spikes definitely have a unique sound and hitlag to accompany it. But if you want something more then it becomes another hassle because this is a subjective point. The satisfaction of certain hits.
@@Altares_V no they don't? they sound the same as a powerful hit in any other direction
@@Altares_V but i'm more talking about knockback
yeah ultimate nails how knockback and spikes feel imo
@@curse5697 they literally don't sound the same... I'm not even trying to insult you but they do not sound the same. as for the knockback point yeah knockback in general in this game feels weird. You don't knock people down at like 60% sometimes...with aerials that kill/spike
13:40 The fact they're allowed to compete in tournaments is crazy. Even Ultimate prevented pro players who helped with the game competing for like 6-12 motnhs.
In a sea of corporate feeling PC over-produced youtube content, Mang always makes me smile, opening a fuckin ms paint document and just telling me what he thinks of Rivals.
I was thinking about what Mango said about recovery and survivability in the game few and I wonder if high survivability and recoverability suggests that more risks and play need to happen in the drop zone, then. It only makes sense that you should be pushing that kind of okay if everyone can recover so well
Shield+DashDance+Floorfucking.
You fucking nailed it. This game is so fucking unfun at times when you've got bastards who que for ranked to not play the game.
10/10, Absolutely spot on!
the worst part is if u want to win at anything above 1100 u HAVE to do those things back. atleast as some characters i only really play orcane and trying to play neutral like i would in melee just doesnt work. u gotta play non interaction the game
@@Keyourasa ha, so that's why I'm stuck at ~1200, I'm too stubborn to not hold forward :D I'll keep calling it a skill issue and try to power through tho, I just hate camping too much
@@Sax4565 same it really sucks too cause id love to actually not camp as orcane but it often feels like the only way to win lol
A lot of non smash attacks have badically no knockback growth so all kills come from only a few attacks/smashes and custom combos are somewhat scripted vs melee. Also, floor hugging is ridiculously strong. DI down and CC work at way too high of percents because of the low knockback growth. Add in the insane recoveries and it is plain to see why it is somewhat stale quickly.
Floor hugging in this game is half as strong a melee. The main difference is that people have not developed counter play yet
@wiki-dg3fc when attacks have so little knockback it is worse. Often time you get attacked for attacking even at percents higher than in melee on characters like Kragg.
Definitely agree with the community bit. Stopped playing the first one because people were just so weird, toxic, or just plain lame. Barely met any friends in that community, and I often come away from different communities with at least 1 or 2 people I keep in contact with
28 minute mang0 video pogchamp
I'm new to platform fighters the most experience I've had with them was brawlhalla, I've really come to enjoy the genre over the past week of me getting addicted to Rivals of Aether 2. Goated game. I really hope it does well.
great points. I'm coming from ultimate and to me RoA2 feels like playing melee except my skill level transfers because of the low tech barrier. I can just focus on playing instead of worrying about tech. That being said, I wonder if that would get boring, cause it feels like it's easy to hit the ceiling right now, mainly because it's rather obivous what is good and what is not, so neutral becomes somewhat less important when fishing is so much better.
Anyway, excited to play this game more!! It's so much fun. Many great opinions from Mango here
The grab spam comes partly from how strong shields are, but partly from how scramble heavy the low % game is. Sooo many moves send you nowhere at 0 and with no hitstun either, meanwhile, everybody gets a tech chase throw at 0 and most of the cast has an overall good grab game at any percent. They should tweek some tilts to have stronger base knockback and nerf most characters grab general grab game
I think making recovery easy ruined every game after melee. Melee and 64 have strong ledge games.
Maybe so but how bad does it feel in those games to miss a recovery. I think that’s probably why they switched it up
An underrated benefit of easy tech is that it’s better for player health.
Melee is gonna be giving some people arthritis fr 😂
And easy tech means not destroying controllers as much.
Long-time Rivals player here. Lots of things to fix, but glad they made it at least fun before a full launch.
And yer DAMN RIGHT you're gonna make money off this game, money in is money out is money in babeeeyyy
Be SELFISH Mango! We do not mind more Rivals, you could be the goat of two platform fighters.
Dude I’m glad someone said this, shielding and reacting oos is too easy in this game. Makes approaching feel like a DOUBLE commitment
Nah the goat is spitting you can tell how bad someone is when someone is only doing the same option in EVERY scenario. Ranno gets a lead watch them spam F-air. Want to shield pressure? F-air, someone tickled your toes under a platform? F-air. Having a wank? F-air. Ranno using fair for every interaction online gets real old real quick. It is the same for Clairens approaching only with their slow ass D-airs or grabs which you can parry the first with little issue and have to remember that she's Marth so her grab range is longer than a platform despite being a tiny tim. Don't get me started on the myriad neutral B's of Lox. But all of these aren't issues that stop me from enjoying the game. THAT GOES TO THE SERVER SENDING MY ASS TO TORONTO WHERE I HAVE THE SHITTIEST CONNECTION OUT OF MY SERVER POOL.
Maybe not easy but more consistent. it puts you straight to the core gameplay, strategy and mind games without you having to practice your whole life to those sh11tty melee mechanics that does not work half the time anyway due to its really inconsistent nature. and there are patch notes, which means its open for improvement unlike melee.
Cracking up at the Mr. R slander off the go LMAO
I as a pretty mid plat fighter player (1000ish gold) pretty quickly started to feel a bit of that staleness, but ive recently been having a lot of fun w the mind game/ baiting aspect of the game. I see how strong defensive options force less engaging gameplay aggression-wise, but then it kinda feels more like street fighter with a heavier bait and punish game.
I think edgeguarding would be more interesting if it worked more like in rivals 1. Everyone has a wall jump and a second recovery after it but the recoveries are over all worse. It would add more mix ups and path variety for the recovering person while the one edgeguarding would have more options since recoveries over all would be less effective at fending off edge guards, all without actually nerfing recoveries too much.
I think being able to recover from very far away on average can be made very fun but right now it is very straightforward and in favor of the person trying to recover.
I think adding the wall jumps after recoveries back while toning down every recovery move in the game would make for far more interesting interactions than what it currently is.
Coming from thousands of hours in ultimate I find the tech skill in this game a bit more difficult. Because movement is so heavy with constant wave dashing it makes me feel like trash but I'm still having fun. One thing that I love is you could link jabs into other abilities because of low end lag which is really cool. I'm excited to see what this patch has.
As a ult player I agree on the way the rivals 1 community reacts, tho I feel like PM/some melee players are almost more annoying every time it's about something from melee/PM, especially about floorhugging, I've heard shit like "game wouldn't be balanced competitively without it" like oh yeah let's throw everybody's fun away for the sake of competition (this argument is even really shitty on the fact it guarantees healthy competition since rivals 1 didn't have it, and ultimate didn't have it and definitely had potential to be balanced if the devs didn't design the characters so randomly).
Floorhugging complaints come from a lack of understanding and experience for the most part.
The complaints weren’t “how do I deal with this” it was bursting through the door and saying “this needs to be removed.”
@@Oakwin_mb NO dude floorhugging is just overtuned and not fun. It turns early game into a camp fest. It even makes early game melee mad boring and PM isn't a problem with it usually because how PM did characters. A mechanic should feel intuitive and fun which floorhugging is not. You are pointing out exactly what OP is talking about with the you just don't get it talk. Most people do get it and a majority of people still think its garbage addition even some still hate CC.
@@Oakwin_mb Well no, the complete sentence of most complaints was "I hit a hard read deserved f-smash at 120% and the oponent deleted completely the knockback just sdi-ing down on a move with a lot of hitstun".
Again I come from ult and here there are also a bunch of moves that are unsafe on hit at low percent to modify neutral, but here the fact that it continues like this even at mid and high percent makes things revolve around a select few moves way too much, amongst which over 50% are grabs.
Imo you shouldn't be able to floorhug things that send into tumble considering how many defensive options you have.
@@cyprienramis1304 Yep. Its almost like melee is not the shining example of how a platfighter should be or something. Powershields if easier would make shielding in melee broken, floorhugging makes even early game melee super campy. Pm doesn't usually have these issues cause of how strong they made characters hit. Its really dumb and unintuitive that you can cancel someone's read and win in neutral on reaction by just tapping down. CC can be cool but shields already exist. I feel like Rivals 1 was a massive fluke in some regards. As it currently stands i would rather play ultimate than even think of Rivals 2. Sure ultimate is also pretty campy but its also genuine with how most exchanges play out.
I don't fully agree with the shielding bit, but it also kinda makes sense, since it came from Rivals 1 with no grabs and shield. I assume it's just going to be growing pains and will. I also think the game would do well with or without you, lol. I do fully agree with the community being pretty meh and needs to be more open minded and welcoming. We do all want the game to succeed, 100
% agree with you on that and people needing to realize it.
Wall jumping and wall teching are huge culprits on the edgegaurding issue. Especially when so many stages have walls.
have you played the first game
The 1st game where only 1 character has edge options? Yeah it wasn't a problem in the 1st game@@REMdonor
The fact that most of the cast just bans the 2 stages without walled ledges makes this every match
@REMdonor I've never played it, I came to this game from smash. The first rivals didn't have edge grabbing though right?
He's saying that the floor (accessibility) is pretty high, which is a good thing. But the ceiling (top-tier) is a bit low because of the "cons". Ex: Foresburn just needs to setup FSmash or USmash because they're overpowered in range and strength. Edge guarding is a must, but the above is much much easier for confirming a stock.
the GOAT has spoken
Street fighter went through the same thing. 4 was really hard so in 5 they made everything really easy so there would be more new players. The problem is if everyone can
do everything all the time then it isn't special. You need there to be really hard stuff that only >1% can do while having enough easy stuff so that the majority of people can still play.
In street fighter terms, lets say you have hit, hit, special, DP (uppercut). You could have the window for a light uppercut that deals less damage be really big and therefore easy to hit so that new players could still do the combo, and have a small window for a heavy dragon punch that does more damage. Then you have people saying "Oh that guy's good he's doing the really hard combo." Don't know much about smash games so I don't know what that would be in a smash game but yeah.
that's what I love about sf4, and plat fighters are really fun because of how differently people can do combos
there probably is a bread n butter small guaranteed combo for a lot of situations, but combo depth and complexity are purely based off how much you know how to extend with your character and how far you can go... and the things is that it isn't always going to be 100% true either, since you've got to take directional influence (holding in towards or away from the attacker) and other defensive techniques
this goes for almost all platform fighters, and games like melee, rivals 1 & 2 (plus other games I probably haven't listed) get done really well, especially with the multiple ways you can hit with a single move based on when you hit it, and what part of the attack you hit them with
give the game a try, the combo system is so diverse (in a good way) that you can kinda invent your own unique combo style
rivals 2 is definitely one of those games with a currently high skill floor due to all the smash players are flocking to it currently, but I know a lot of new people playing the game too, plus it's pretty cheap
if you do though, you'll have to look for a community made tutorial though, since there's isn't one fully implemented in the game just yet
Game's tough. :P
My biggest gripe is that while the core is great, it's too tough and bare bones right now. I'd like some more flash and bells and whistles.
For MVS it's the opposite: the core is still janky as heck but I enjoy the presentation way more.
Every community on the internet is annoying. Smash reddit treats mang0 so horribly it's sickening. They used to do it to hbox too when he was #1.
The problem is the internet letxs you be an asshole without any recourse. Basically anything someone says on the internet may as well not exist because it's just cruel, toxic or kvetchy.
Also REALLY hoping for new character by year end. The idea of Hodan returning gets me hype.
Etalus for Christmas would be perfect 🐻❄️🌲☃️
@@curse5697He and Eliana are all I want right now
@djandjb1 Sylvanos and the new character to the series that won the workshop contest is my other ones.
Listen to him Dan
I'm in gold-ish ELO and I feel like most of those cons don't apply as much down here as they seem to at the top. Hopefully this means there'll be a big community of mid players to support the game while it gets refined at the top level!
i agree with the edge guarding. I think they can fix this with having more stages the have some empty space / float about the kill zone. it makes teching the spikes and guards so much more difficult. When the wall edges extend down into infinity, anyone can hit a tech.
also to the point regarding shielding, easily solution is to have shield poking and a shield the shrinks over time / has a stamina function.
@@koryhawes2548 rivals 1 didn't have the edgeguarding issue because most of the cast was practically _forced_ to walljump for their recovery, leaving them plenty of space to get dunked.
Recoveries also just...felt slower in rivals 1? I don't know how to put it.
As a pm player that mostly plays melee nowadays, I started to notice how 'scripted' and fabricated the increased accessibility made the game feel compared to melee. It's kinda a paradox where melee has many flaws that no sane game developer would intentionally include, but these flaws make for such a dynamic meta game because someone can find new uses for a bad or niche move or even whole character after 20 years. PM, and now Rivals 2, don't have this level of natural beauty and everything feels designed to do a certain task or fill a certain role. When this happens, the game feels stale. I do think that the meta needs more time to develop before making drastic changes though.
To address your point about the cracked players, I've poured thousands of hours into pm and melee but most of my tech skill and muscle memory are still based on pm, so when I play a melee character that I'm not intimately familiar with in specifically melee, I often find myself messing things up. I therefore have my mains in either game and the only overlap really is Peach. Now moving to rivals 2, I am very familiar with all the mechanics that carry over from smash, even the pm tech, but it's all a bit easier to perform which makes my average level of play much higher. My point is that while I might spend half the match trying to shield drop or ledge dash in melee instead of actually fighting my opponent, I don't have that issue in rivals 2. This means that I can get right to playing the opponent, making the meta appear advanced more quickly than what melee has had. It also means that the skill gap is much lesser which may make for a less engaging game in the long run, but we'll see.
I think any community that is primarily based online can seem more shit than most. Rivals has a primarily online community as there was barely a local scene for most people, so people act as you'd expect when online. Not gonna act like I haven't been an asshole before either, so my criticism comes from a genuine place.
I think if this game succeeds, and more states/countries grow in-person communities, a lot of the negative aspects of the community will seem less upfront. Even tho I am a Rivals 1 enjoyer far more, I still want to game to reach a high close to modern day Smash and not just a Discord VC ass game with a couple regionals and supermajors spinkled in.
The edgeguard complaint is so real. I think a small rework could really open up the amount of moves and setups that kill, and are fun
Mango furry timeline, they fix all the problems with rivals, he goes to a furry orgy, gets a fursuit head, competes with the head on at every rivals tournament
if they eliminated the delay if you hit someone’s shield and still allowed you to hit fall it would allow every character to add more shield pressure and make for more interesting neutral
Completely agree about the weird shit I’ve seen about people who played rivals 1 scoffing at the idea of smash players trying rivals 2.
No one hates rivals 2 more than rivals 1 fans, apparently.
They liked it "before it was cool"
@@cdntlDan is gonna get fed up with the competitive scene and will add tripping to Rivals 3.
@@cdntl It's less about them liking before it was cool and more about how they backed the game on the promise of getting Rivals 2 and then instead got a game that gutted a lot of mechanics that defined the feel of the original. In combination with the devs & publisher more focusing on using Smash players who dismissed the original rather than the people who have stuck around to make Rivals 2 possible in the first place.
Not that I entirely agree with them but I can understand that from their perspective it can feel like they've been used and then thrown to the wayside.
Chilling in Plat letting Rannos and Wrastors fly right into my fully charged FSmash as Elephant Man has been fun.
The point about the Rivals community is so true. It is also very silly, considering how different RoA 1 and 2 are. RoA 2 is a whole different game, Rivals 1 veterans don't know it that well either.
I agree with a lot of this, and I’m sure the game will get tweaks as it moves on to address ground game and shielding, but the “no kreygasm” complaint seems a bit much. The only reason we have the expectation of a kill confirm at 60% is because melee taught us to expect that, and melee was never designed to be a competitive platform fighter. Those low percent kills are because high level competitive players cracked a system that was never meant to handle it. Rivals seems to set its minimum bar closer to 100%, and that honestly makes sense to me. An opponent surviving past 100 only feels like being deprived of dopamine because that’s how melee trained us to think about percentages. Rivals isn’t melee. It’s built for competition, not adapted for it.
I personally think that edge guarding is more of an option than people are giving it credit for.
Every character having a good recovery means that every character also has the ability to go off stage, but compared to smash going for an edge guard in this game is much much more of a risk.
Rivals 1 had insane ledge trapping dominance due to there being no ledge it was almost always safer, and easier to get more damage off of them trying to recover to stage. With that being said though edge guarding provided a far greater reward.
I main maypul and I get absolutely COOKED by people who actually edge guard me as even tiny small hits annihilate maypul's recovery. That being said I also believe that maypul has a pretty strong off stage game, I just understand that I'm not good enough with the kit to safely get what I want out of edgeguarding.
It will be interesting to see how it develops over time, but I'd be surprised if edge guarding isn't seen more in this game than it was in rivals 1.
Street fighter player here!
Sf6 is only easier for things like 'modern mode'
Besides that its pretty much the same as 5.
Sf4 had ALOT more 1 frame links and more difficult characters such as c.viper, el fuerte, etc. Lastly neutral overall was much more fast paced as well.
Pro, first true honest to goodness Melee sequel
Con, furry fighter
I generally agree with Mango, but I think the problem he's seeing is because we have a small-ish obsessed community. We're all downloading each others strategies, and we havent had enough time or patches or additions to fully try everything. I have been using my non-meta throws every game just to look for new routes or options to punish predictable DI.
Been a rivals 1 player for a long time and there is so much angsty autism in the community its not really a suprise that people are so gatekeepy
Edit: The amount of takes ive seen from other rivals 1 players that are seemingly completely unaware playing THE SEQUEL and NOT rivals 1 anymore is astounding. They act like nothing about this game has changed except the graphics? They think every character is on the exact same level as before and shield and grab has changed NOTHING. Its bizarre
went into this video thinking "I hope he agrees with me in thinking that shield is too strong"
Fr Rivals players really have this elitist mentality when it comes to the game.
which is crazy because they all just cheese and don't have an execution barrier
Thank god there are no elitist melee players, right?
@@BurnsyRuns😂
@@BurnsyRuns Coming from an Ultimate player I understand this sentiment, two wrongs don’t make a right though.
@ oh certainly. When I see Rivals players acting shitty to other communities I always call it out, even if they get butthurt at me. We can’t afford that as a community, look at how often platform fighters die. We want y’all to play our game with us cuz we like it, and we like having an active game. There’s no need for egos and infighting.
Mango it's time to call Dan
excluding grab its the only fg w a block button that covers everything, makes defence way too easy
Yeah uh, can we normalize this. I agree with all of this. Some of the issues design wise for this game weren’t even problematic in rivals 1. It’s ok for games to change, not every dev decision is holy and untouchable.
I love everything about the game but my 1 gripe is how unsafe arials are on shield... How am I supposed to poke/approach from the air? I try to space an arial and I get shield grabbed the moment my attack makes contact with a shield. If it's supposed to be Rock, Paper, Scissors, why are Shield and Grab always the best option??
a good Clairen knows how to approach safely and circles around you.
As a rivals fan I think this is a great video.
mango spitting
Give every spike in the game a smallish hit-box that makes it un-tech-able. Feel like that would make edgeguarding as a whole more interesting since it introduces more of a risk/reward to edgeguarding. Maybe some spikes you don't add this to, similar to Falco/Marth's spikes vs. Captain Falcon's dair, you probably don't need something like this on like Ranno Fair, Wrastor Down strong, or Kragg Down B.
Dog, what? What about on the stage? Get fucked and eat the oki?
kragg down b is already untechable offstage, as full di in still makes you not hit the wall
Something similar to ultimate where moves become untechable at a high percent could also help
@@Rhakimdar spikes in this game are allowed to be way stronger and more reliable than they are in smash because of the fact that you can tech the wall as counter play, which will be very important for some future characters. hodan, for example, has a upstrong that is a command grab that spikes people off stage, and without walls, kills way to early with no counterplay other than "don't get hit lol".
@@_ERR_404_ Oh I agree for sure! I just thought the Ultimate concept where at like 150% some moves will become untechable, could be a means to offer more rewarding off stage play for killing. It's definitely viable currently but at a high level lots of techs still let people hug the wall to avoid death even at higher percents. But this is just from what I've witnessed I'm sure theres likely a reason it hasn't been implemented as you've mentioned
my youtube is bugged and im watching mango talk about this game while the comment section is about the similarities of the british empire and the western world today.
It could just be because I suck, but the only thing I don't like, is so far there are situations where I shield an attack, dodge roll, tech in place, use my defense tools at my disposal to block/dodge an attack, and I get punished for it, OR even better I get punished for landing an attack.
I'll have to play more to pinpoint specific examples. But some interactions have felt really bad, overall LOVE the game though don't get me wrong
Great feedback straight up
I know he said "rivals community bad" but man... rivals 1 legit didn't have a bunch of the issues he has with it. Makes me sad.
Some stuff in Rivals 2 I do like, but some of it is just so obviously a clashing between rivals 1 philosophy and rivals 2 wanting to add smash mechanics.
So many chars felt so much better. Movement in general was faster and snappier.
rivals 1 is ass
Personally i feel like edgeguard is really something in this game, it doesn't look so hard to kill offstage. But I agree on the point a spike at 60 should kill. A point i don't like is crounch cancel, it's really dumb defensive option
I get that everyone is spamming the same 3 things… the game is young. As people learn to deal with those 3 things, new routes will come out to add mix up because there is a lot of untapped combo potential. Edgeguarding is hard now, because we suck at it RN. In a year we’re going to look back and say WTF were we doing? As people get more comfortable with their options and movement off stage, edge guarding will be a more interactive thing. Plus MF plays Zetterburn! Him going off stage is always a liability to himself. Give it at least a few months and the combo routes, punishes, and edgeguarding will grow more intricate… I do agree that something about the dash dancing probably needs to change, maybe making the window to no-slide dash back a bit tighter and adding more options to play with tilts from some sort of dash cancel would be fun. Maybe that already exists?
You can already tilt out of pivots in initial dash, but it requires playing on tilt stick instead of smash stick
i want to see mang go over his cs2 inventory so badly 7:03