It is interesting what you say about VCRs as collectors items as opposed to people keeping them running just for the sake of transfer. I certainly had noticed a thriving trade on eBay, not just of old machines but of "restored" machines. Pretty cool.
Hello, Colin. These machines normally have a problem with the REC/PLAY switches that do not make contact in between the front panel push selectors and the switches on the PCB. The machine will display the image like its drifting with tracking lines all over the place and sometimes you will lose the image all together if they are completely faulty. Try to also check for dry joints on all the PCBs, especially the Video board and the modules on it...
When I had an N1700 in the 1990s, I definitely had a way to make it run with a cassette and without the lid. That's also how I spooled a couple of VHS tapes into a VCR cassette (I think there's more than two E240's of space in one VCR cassette). I think I must have used a piece of sticky tape to hold down the thingybob on the left and a pencil for the one on the right. I had plenty cassettes where the spring of the side door was missing so it would stay open, so that was not a problem :) I don't think I ever understood how the back tension worked until now. I knew that once the cassette is in the recorder, the spools don't touch each other anymore but I couldn't figure out how to adjust that back tension. Anyway, thanks for the video, I hope you eventually get it to work again! Maybe exchange the part of mechanism that holds the pinch roller with another machine?
As an American I've never seen most of these formats before. It's wild how the whole head drum assembly rotates on threading. I have picked up a couple VCR-LP decks (and V2000s) while I've been in Germany (along with some tapes - no point in the machine without tapes) so these videos are probably going to be helpful in getting one of these things to run properly. It doesn't appear there are any adjustable tape guides on this deck but if there are, especially around the capstan, I'd fiddle with those. Also, the cassette carriage may be misaligned which could cause the tape path to skew. I'd probably try prying up and pressing down on the carriage a bit to see if anything changed, maybe get a mirror to watch the tape. They didn't exactly engineer these to be serviced, it seems.
I once had an amusing argument with an American gentleman on the internet, who ranted very angrily that this format didn't exist, and he knew for sure because he worked for Philips and he'd never heard of it. Notwithstanding that Philips is/was a giant multinational, and he worked for the medical imaging division in a part of the world where this video format wasn't sold.
@@Zeem4 you can even tell this guy than ntsc prototype even existed. i saw a video on youtube, sadly not bookmarked it, which was digitized from on of this rare machine. but finally... here it is : th-cam.com/video/HvzOUrUshfQ/w-d-xo.html
The DIN AV connector was actually fairly well standardized. Grundig TV-sets had sockets for that, and there were at least some Grundig sets with a built-in SCART->DIN adapter so you had SCART without RGB. The connector typically was in the IF module and the 12 V switched a little relay inside of it. As far as I can tell it was even used in early consumer reel-to-reel recorders. I remember my first VHS recorder, an ITT, also having a DIN connector. Until the mid 2000s adapters were readily available, sometimes even in supermarkets.
Yes, Hama definitely included 6-pin DIN in their video adaptor kits that were available pretty much everywhere. If I remember correctly, these kits contained: - DIN cable 1.5 m long - Two DIN/SCART adaptors (one in, one out) - DIN/RCA adaptor lead (stereo audio) - Two RCA/BNC adaptors
i had this happen when i was a kid in the late 90,s with a toshiba vhs ,and ignorantly i was adjusting the tape guides hoping to dial out a slow gradual tape rise at the exit side of the head drum at no point did i realise it was the capstan pinch roller was hardened and slightly barrelled , i sold it to a "wants " shop still faulty ,didnt realise what the fault was till years later that was a really nice 4 head sp/lp machine, oops i also never noticed the guides on vhs were locked with tiny grub screws , i thought the guides were a friction adjustment!
It would drive me nuts not being able to see whats going on in the tape path. I wonder if a test tape could be made with parts of the cassette shell cut away so you can see what's happening.
Hi. Even if the pinch roller is perfectly parallel with the capstan i must suggest to try to slightly change his alignement through its own alignement screw on the arm, since old tapes often have to find the correct alignment with old pinch rollers and this may change from tape to tape! Sorry for my bad english. Cheers
The shims of the reel table you added are for endshake only. Put back only the ones originally fitted. There is no adjustment of tape back tension. The backtension is clever. It uses the weight of the supply reel (bottom) to alter the tension during operation, the weight pressing the reel table on the felt washers. Your machine most likely has mis aligned exit guide pin. You need to lace machine up with only the bottom cassette shell, placing the nylon rollers on guide pins and the tape in tape path. You'll then be able to see where the tape is riding/bubbling over tape ruler, ace head or pinch roller. --refer to Philips N1700 Manual for more info.... The Philips N1700 is a very clever and devious machine in its tape path operation, things that look like adjustments are not, others that look like just Allen set screws are critical adjustments! Definitely not a machine just to twiddle!
I see what you are saying about the weight of the supply spool increasing the back tension, but I think the shims do also set the minimum back tension. Without the tiny amount of extra shim thickness I added, the back tension on this machine is virtually zero compared to my working ones. I'm aware that the metal guide mounted to the bottom of the lower head drum is a critical adjustment, and it only contacts the tape in three places. Perhaps the exit guide has been twiddled with, that would be bad.
@@video99couk hello you must also check the 2 rubber brake under the nylon spool, because in playback they have to block it to get the back tension to operate normally, and they have to release it for fast rewind. sometimes they get cracked, and you won't be able to get any back tension, or at least not the way it was suppose to be. and i'm afraid they probabely don't do their job anymore as you said than with original shim setup it get no tension. what you can also do is resurface a bit the nylon spool, and i bet it get some cracks too making the surface quite bumpy... flaten the surface may also help the felt pad to get a bit more grip.
if it was "clever" the supply spool would have used a spring somewhere to allow it to go up/down as the weight vary. there's really nothing like that. philips vcr was a crude and simple design. the only things you can setup on the supply spool with the shim is its fixed height and allow a play in it, the play has to be around 0.10mm.
No spring needed--that's how it's clever! If tape reel was constantly rising and falling as you say, then it would affect the tape to head relationship......
@@HighCompressionII from a physical standpoint, if the pressure can't change, the torque can't vary it's simple as that. and as the cassette is coaxial, the weight is constant. the only machine that were really clever was the grundig chassis from VCR BK3000 to SVR, as they used active back tension. edit : but i admit i may missed something i don't understand clearly.
Dont forget to put a very small amount of oil onto the head shaft. sometimes the graphite block that touchd the head shaft in the machine lid causes a strange sound.
The sub-bracket where the pinch roller is mounted on is not resting correctly on the pivot point. You can see it at 29:20 on the left side. It is resting against the main bracket, but should have space there like in the working machine. If it can't move freely, the roller will not centre its balance against the capstan. If this is the issue, I'd like to apply for a free of charge A/V output board ;)
Colin, I could try the tape outside of the VCR cassette to better see if the tape path is okay. I use a cotton/ear bud to wedge the cassette-in switch closed; place the spools from inside the cassette over the tape deck spool holders; place the reels over the supply- and takeup- spools. Ensure the tape is over the guide posts and you can attempt a lace up. When you press play, put your finger over the cassette-exit-spool or it will ride up causing other issues. You can now see the complete tape path. Is the tape really aligned on the ACE head you moved? Is the lower drum "wobbling"? Is there "crap" on the lower drum ladder that is moving the tape up? Just some thoughts.
You know, one of my N1700s does exactly the same, but only with Scotch tapes. To date I've never resolved it. It's so so frustrating. I don't feel so daft now that you've come across the same fault on this one. I wonder what's going on?
By worn out lower drum, apart from the noisy bearing, you mean it got shiny and the tape sticks to it, which causes fluctuation in the back tension? If that's the case, might the trick that 12voltvids Dave used to do with Betamax drums would help? He used to use a cleaning paste like Cif to remove the shine of Betamax upper drums, might this be needed for the lower drum in this case?
Nah, the exit guide is the pin the white roller runs on before the taps heads to the ace head..... It can't be twiddled, it must be bent--or as Philips put it 'Stressed' into correct position.... I'm guessing then, your one way clutch fingers under the plate on which the last clutch disc rests/ operates under the reel table, are missing or set in wrong position, hence no back tension....
Love the vids of this heavy beasts. Silly question, the noise is still there after oiling. Any chance of an spacer teflon washer missing. Sounds like metal rubbing. For bronze bushing I had succes with red grease. The bronze eventually will absorv the grease since it becames olily pretty easily and this bronze bearing are supposed to behave as an sponge. Any change to make a sacrifiifcial tape ?, and cut all the plastic necesary to expose the tape path, especially the pinch roller. I worked on several audio decks (never on video decks), and I made a C-120 sacrificial tape which is suggested by on Sony Service manual. They suggest C-120 probably because it is the worst case scenario. Pinch can look pretty parallel but once it is loaded agains the capstan probably tilts a bit ?
I could do a modified tape, that's on my list. I have an endoscope camera which might help too. I will try some more oil on the shaft, or something heavier like grease.
@@video99couk Usually the bronze bearings work best with a grease indeed , oil is too thin to form a film, and just gets pushed into the bronze. I use 'Nigrin Mehrzweckfett' but it is just what I have laying around.
I think I a while a go saw a website on the internet, who sold brand new made back tention kit for the N1500/1700. It was the whole assembly, with wheels and shims and everything, i think.I think it was a dutch guy who sold them. He had other things too. But i don't remember his name or the name of the website. I could be wrong, but it would be worth a try to make some Google search.Just a tip. Good luck!
@@video99couk they were that bad if not the worst ever vcr to have ever been built hence why the parts & service manual is hard to get hold of let alone any of the tapes
That pinch roller is too shiny. Needs a very very good rubb. Even take off a tiny layer. Take Break-shoe cleaner and cotton cloth. Rubb it hard ,till its complete mat . Or even put it in a drill stand.And with good square,flat ,wood stick, sandpaper,600, take that glance off. The dia of pinch roller can handle that tiny amount of undersize. The wiggel of whole system is normal. Its just that pinch roller that has a surface that is not have a good grip on the tape due to that glance on it.
But I tried three pinch rollers. All with exactly the same problem? I don't think so, especially since only one of them was shiny. I'm not ruling out pinch roller failure, but I doubt it.
Looks more like a service label, I have never seen that label (and I've seen many). The original ones are thin round paper labels with cutouts for the head connections
These ugly beasts would certainly not win any awards for beauty with that cheap red LED versus the more common VFDs and that huge oddly shaped case, but at least they’re relatively easy to work on with the various “service mode” positions for the boards… see that a lot in B&O gear as well.
I don't think they made VFD in 1974.... I never saw one until VHS had wiped away all these old formats in the 80's..... If they did, I'm guessing they be too expensive for a home video machine!
It is interesting what you say about VCRs as collectors items as opposed to people keeping them running just for the sake of transfer. I certainly had noticed a thriving trade on eBay, not just of old machines but of "restored" machines. Pretty cool.
Hello, Colin. These machines normally have a problem with the REC/PLAY switches that do not make contact in between the front panel push selectors and the switches on the PCB. The machine will display the image like its drifting with tracking lines all over the place and sometimes you will lose the image all together if they are completely faulty. Try to also check for dry joints on all the PCBs, especially the Video board and the modules on it...
When I had an N1700 in the 1990s, I definitely had a way to make it run with a cassette and without the lid. That's also how I spooled a couple of VHS tapes into a VCR cassette (I think there's more than two E240's of space in one VCR cassette).
I think I must have used a piece of sticky tape to hold down the thingybob on the left and a pencil for the one on the right. I had plenty cassettes where the spring of the side door was missing so it would stay open, so that was not a problem :)
I don't think I ever understood how the back tension worked until now. I knew that once the cassette is in the recorder, the spools don't touch each other anymore but I couldn't figure out how to adjust that back tension.
Anyway, thanks for the video, I hope you eventually get it to work again! Maybe exchange the part of mechanism that holds the pinch roller with another machine?
As an American I've never seen most of these formats before. It's wild how the whole head drum assembly rotates on threading. I have picked up a couple VCR-LP decks (and V2000s) while I've been in Germany (along with some tapes - no point in the machine without tapes) so these videos are probably going to be helpful in getting one of these things to run properly.
It doesn't appear there are any adjustable tape guides on this deck but if there are, especially around the capstan, I'd fiddle with those. Also, the cassette carriage may be misaligned which could cause the tape path to skew. I'd probably try prying up and pressing down on the carriage a bit to see if anything changed, maybe get a mirror to watch the tape. They didn't exactly engineer these to be serviced, it seems.
I once had an amusing argument with an American gentleman on the internet, who ranted very angrily that this format didn't exist, and he knew for sure because he worked for Philips and he'd never heard of it. Notwithstanding that Philips is/was a giant multinational, and he worked for the medical imaging division in a part of the world where this video format wasn't sold.
If you think THIS is crazy, you really must check out the Quasar Great Time Machine. VR1000. Absolutely BONKERS head drum/tape loading system! 😂
@@njm1971nycAnd the Cartrivision, that was the real bonkers one.
@@Zeem4 you can even tell this guy than ntsc prototype even existed.
i saw a video on youtube, sadly not bookmarked it, which was digitized from on of this rare machine.
but finally... here it is : th-cam.com/video/HvzOUrUshfQ/w-d-xo.html
I have seen one of those NV1700 but never knew what was inside.
The DIN AV connector was actually fairly well standardized. Grundig TV-sets had sockets for that, and there were at least some Grundig sets with a built-in SCART->DIN adapter so you had SCART without RGB. The connector typically was in the IF module and the 12 V switched a little relay inside of it. As far as I can tell it was even used in early consumer reel-to-reel recorders. I remember my first VHS recorder, an ITT, also having a DIN connector. Until the mid 2000s adapters were readily available, sometimes even in supermarkets.
Yes, Hama definitely included 6-pin DIN in their video adaptor kits that were available pretty much everywhere. If I remember correctly, these kits contained:
- DIN cable 1.5 m long
- Two DIN/SCART adaptors (one in, one out)
- DIN/RCA adaptor lead (stereo audio)
- Two RCA/BNC adaptors
i had this happen when i was a kid in the late 90,s with a toshiba vhs ,and ignorantly i was adjusting the tape guides hoping to dial out a slow gradual tape rise at the exit side of the head drum at no point did i realise it was the capstan pinch roller was hardened and slightly barrelled , i sold it to a "wants " shop still faulty ,didnt realise what the fault was till years later
that was a really nice 4 head sp/lp machine, oops
i also never noticed the guides on vhs were locked with tiny grub screws , i thought the guides were a friction adjustment!
It would drive me nuts not being able to see whats going on in the tape path. I wonder if a test tape could be made with parts of the cassette shell cut away so you can see what's happening.
My thoughts too, an open or transparent case perhaps for testing/ inspection purposes only to rule out tape handling issues .
There is no head switching signal at VCR Recorders because the heads are connected in series. This is also the case with GRUNDIG.
I was beginning to think that must be the case. Can't be great for S/N ratio.
Hi. Even if the pinch roller is perfectly parallel with the capstan i must suggest to try to slightly change his alignement through its own alignement screw on the arm, since old tapes often have to find the correct alignment with old pinch rollers and this may change from tape to tape! Sorry for my bad english. Cheers
Try to check if the pinch roller is in perfect parallel to the capstan, since someone messed with the arm for the audio head and pinch roller.
Well I do wonder if someone has bent something. But the pinch roller is perfectly parallel to the capstan, yes.
The shims of the reel table you added are for endshake only. Put back only the ones originally fitted.
There is no adjustment of tape back tension.
The backtension is clever. It uses the weight of the supply reel (bottom) to alter the tension during operation, the weight pressing the reel table on the felt washers.
Your machine most likely has mis aligned exit guide pin.
You need to lace machine up with only the bottom cassette shell, placing the nylon rollers on guide pins and the tape in tape path.
You'll then be able to see where the tape is riding/bubbling over tape ruler, ace head or pinch roller.
--refer to Philips N1700 Manual for more info....
The Philips N1700 is a very clever and devious machine in its tape path operation, things that look like adjustments are not, others that look like just Allen set screws are critical adjustments!
Definitely not a machine just to twiddle!
I see what you are saying about the weight of the supply spool increasing the back tension, but I think the shims do also set the minimum back tension. Without the tiny amount of extra shim thickness I added, the back tension on this machine is virtually zero compared to my working ones. I'm aware that the metal guide mounted to the bottom of the lower head drum is a critical adjustment, and it only contacts the tape in three places. Perhaps the exit guide has been twiddled with, that would be bad.
@@video99couk hello
you must also check the 2 rubber brake under the nylon spool, because in playback they have to block it to get the back tension to operate normally, and they have to release it for fast rewind.
sometimes they get cracked, and you won't be able to get any back tension, or at least not the way it was suppose to be.
and i'm afraid they probabely don't do their job anymore as you said than with original shim setup it get no tension.
what you can also do is resurface a bit the nylon spool, and i bet it get some cracks too making the surface quite bumpy...
flaten the surface may also help the felt pad to get a bit more grip.
if it was "clever" the supply spool would have used a spring somewhere to allow it to go up/down as the weight vary.
there's really nothing like that. philips vcr was a crude and simple design.
the only things you can setup on the supply spool with the shim is its fixed height and allow a play in it, the play has to be around 0.10mm.
No spring needed--that's how it's clever!
If tape reel was constantly rising and falling as you say, then it would affect the tape to head relationship......
@@HighCompressionII
from a physical standpoint, if the pressure can't change, the torque can't vary it's simple as that. and as the cassette is coaxial, the weight is constant.
the only machine that were really clever was the grundig chassis from VCR BK3000 to SVR, as they used active back tension.
edit : but i admit i may missed something i don't understand clearly.
Another gigantic beast!
TECHMOAN MUG SPOTTED.
Bringing back memories. Is the takeup reel pulling way to hard on the tape perhaps?
Dont forget to put a very small amount of oil onto the head shaft. sometimes the graphite block that touchd the head shaft in the machine lid causes a strange sound.
Though the noise in the case would happen even without the carriage (end hence graphite) being installed.
Yes indeed
The sub-bracket where the pinch roller is mounted on is not resting correctly on the pivot point. You can see it at 29:20 on the left side. It is resting against the main bracket, but should have space there like in the working machine. If it can't move freely, the roller will not centre its balance against the capstan. If this is the issue, I'd like to apply for a free of charge A/V output board ;)
I'll examine that further.
Colin, I could try the tape outside of the VCR cassette to better see if the tape path is okay. I use a cotton/ear bud to wedge the cassette-in switch closed; place the spools from inside the cassette over the tape deck spool holders; place the reels over the supply- and takeup- spools. Ensure the tape is over the guide posts and you can attempt a lace up. When you press play, put your finger over the cassette-exit-spool or it will ride up causing other issues. You can now see the complete tape path. Is the tape really aligned on the ACE head you moved? Is the lower drum "wobbling"? Is there "crap" on the lower drum ladder that is moving the tape up? Just some thoughts.
You know, one of my N1700s does exactly the same, but only with Scotch tapes. To date I've never resolved it. It's so so frustrating. I don't feel so daft now that you've come across the same fault on this one. I wonder what's going on?
I remember from messing with dat recorders that the back tension was always too high
By worn out lower drum, apart from the noisy bearing, you mean it got shiny and the tape sticks to it, which causes fluctuation in the back tension? If that's the case, might the trick that 12voltvids Dave used to do with Betamax drums would help? He used to use a cleaning paste like Cif to remove the shine of Betamax upper drums, might this be needed for the lower drum in this case?
I've done similar things in the past to upper and lower drums. It's a possibility but I should check other possible causes first.
Nah, the exit guide is the pin the white roller runs on before the taps heads to the ace head.....
It can't be twiddled, it must be bent--or as Philips put it 'Stressed' into correct position....
I'm guessing then, your one way clutch fingers under the plate on which the last clutch disc rests/ operates under the reel table, are missing or set in wrong position, hence no back tension....
Love the vids of this heavy beasts. Silly question, the noise is still there after oiling. Any chance of an spacer teflon washer missing. Sounds like metal rubbing. For bronze bushing I had succes with red grease. The bronze eventually will absorv the grease since it becames olily pretty easily and this bronze bearing are supposed to behave as an sponge. Any change to make a sacrifiifcial tape ?, and cut all the plastic necesary to expose the tape path, especially the pinch roller. I worked on several audio decks (never on video decks), and I made a C-120 sacrificial tape which is suggested by on Sony Service manual. They suggest C-120 probably because it is the worst case scenario. Pinch can look pretty parallel but once it is loaded agains the capstan probably tilts a bit ?
I could do a modified tape, that's on my list. I have an endoscope camera which might help too. I will try some more oil on the shaft, or something heavier like grease.
@@video99couk Usually the bronze bearings work best with a grease indeed , oil is too thin to form a film, and just gets pushed into the bronze. I use 'Nigrin Mehrzweckfett' but it is just what I have laying around.
I think I a while a go saw a website on the internet, who sold brand new made back tention kit for the N1500/1700. It was the whole assembly, with wheels and shims and everything, i think.I think it was a dutch guy who sold them. He had other things too. But i don't remember his name or the name of the website. I could be wrong, but it would be worth a try to make some Google search.Just a tip. Good luck!
Put a micro camera in to watch the tape path operation
Try some heavy grease on the drum shaft and also decrease the drum end float.
Oh please look at the headdrum.......is it possible that the polarity of the heads is wrong??..(looks like opposite)..but thx for the vid
useful onament
We will have to see. At the least it's a good set of spare parts, even if the deck can't be re-aligned.
@@video99couk they were that bad if not the worst ever vcr to have ever been built hence why the parts & service manual is hard to get hold of let alone any of the tapes
Do some head drums rotate at 1800 Rpm or what.
That pinch roller is too shiny. Needs a very very good rubb. Even take off a tiny layer. Take Break-shoe cleaner and cotton cloth. Rubb it hard ,till its complete mat . Or even put it in a drill stand.And with good square,flat ,wood stick, sandpaper,600, take that glance off. The dia of pinch roller can handle that tiny amount of undersize.
The wiggel of whole system is normal.
Its just that pinch roller that has a surface that is not have a good grip on the tape due to that glance on it.
But I tried three pinch rollers. All with exactly the same problem? I don't think so, especially since only one of them was shiny. I'm not ruling out pinch roller failure, but I doubt it.
That's a shame.
Can't be good having only half of that paper drum label
Maybe you could ask Philips why they did that
@@livinlifetothefullest2750Philips torn it? Right...
Looks more like a service label, I have never seen that label (and I've seen many). The original ones are thin round paper labels with cutouts for the head connections
These ugly beasts would certainly not win any awards for beauty with that cheap red LED versus the more common VFDs and that huge oddly shaped case, but at least they’re relatively easy to work on with the various “service mode” positions for the boards… see that a lot in B&O gear as well.
Bear in mind that this was based on the previous N1502 model which came out around 1976.
I don't think they made VFD in 1974....
I never saw one until VHS had wiped away all these old formats in the 80's.....
If they did, I'm guessing they be too expensive for a home video machine!