Part One: The Bastards of Forensic Science | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part One: The Bastards of Forensic Science | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Forensic Science is supposed to provide perfect certainty in the most serious criminal cases. What if it's all a bunch of bullshit? Robert sits down with Dr. Kaveh Hoda to talk about all the myriad cons in forensic "science.”
Original Air Date: April 23, 2024
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
New episodes twice a week on iHeartRadio.
#BehindtheBastards #BehindtheBastardsPodcast #RobertEvansBehindtheBastards #BehindtheBastardsMerch #BehindtheBastardsJohnLandis #BehindTheBastardsHost #BehindtheBastardsIvermectin #BestBehindtheBastardsEpisodes #BehindtheBastardsBestEpisodes
I went to school to learn how to be a forensic chemist and a summer internship at a police department RADICALIZED me almost as much as 4 years of college
I used to be an asbestos analyst--examining samples of building materials, etc. to establish if asbestos was present and if so, how much and what kind. In our lab, we had stringent procedures (I think established by NIST?) to maintain our quality levels. So every 10th sample we analyzed was handed over to a colleague (crucially, w/o mentioning our findings) to be analyzed by them. If they got a different result, you had to look at it together to collaboratively reach a conclusion. Sometimes we'd bring in a third analyst to look as well. And every, I think, 50th was a traceable, laboratory-created standard of definitely known asbestos content--with a coded label, so you didn't know what you were expected to find. If you got too many of those wrong, you were taken off of customer samples and had to redo the training until you could pass enough again. This process allowed us, with statistics, to calculate a reliable, defensible error/accuracy rate and detection limit which was included in every report we issued.
IDK how forensic labs work, but I have the impression that few, if any, forensic labs do this kind of thing.
QA/QC is a big deal in forensic labs. Competency tests are performed regularly, and case work is checked by other scientists. I can't say it is always perfect across all labs, but it is taken very seriously by most.
The antique store hospital leads me to believe that ALL large buildings in the state of Texas are secretly a Buc-ees.
Lmao. That was a good joke.
If only
@@jessicashort669 Isn’t Buc-ees a conservative organization?
it reminds me of a store in montana that solid guns, gun accessories, liqueur, and antiques
@@SgtKaneGunlockinside a hospital basement?
Aaaaah the only podcast who's dulcet tones are recorded loud enough to hear in my shower.
LOL I literally just stepped out of the shower while listening to this podcast, which I think is called "You're Wrong About Forensic Science."
Important thing to know when talking about matching points on fingerprints: a full clean fingerprint has, on average, anywhere between 150 and 180 points.
Something to remember when they talk about perfect matches with eight or twelve or however many points required.
Thats only matching 10% of the stuff. Thats not even enough to get the outline of a puzzle.
That's not quite how it works.
Using the same logic: a car has 10,000 parts, but you only use a key on one part to unlock it. How do you know it's your car?
@@ericray5914 google identical car keys and flip to the news tab sometime my dude
@@ericray5914 If you encounter a car that looks nothing like your own but your key still works, you'd probably assume that you found a car that just happens to work with your key. If you only identify one part of the print and it matches, that doesn't mean the rest will match. Statistically speaking there's ALWAYS going to be someone with certain parts of their finger print that match certain parts of yours.
The antique store probably buys family heirlooms from people desperate to pay their medical bills.
Either that or the hospital is so expensive the only people who can afford it expect something a little nicer then just some flowers and a card as a gift from visitors.
Ahh! You've got a brilliant idea! U.S. hospitals should have pawn shops in them where you can pawn you goods for medical care!
I didn't make that connection, but what a brilliant business idea. Well meemaw died we might as well sell her shit to that nice man running an antique store right next to the billing department.
That thought arose in me as well.
It's so utterly bleak to think of someone's family having to go to this guy with their heirlooms in order to offset the cost of the treatments that failed to save their life.
I can only hope that the guy in the shop isn't ripping people off in the process, but they almost certainly do.
Honestly, I feel like a pawn shop giving out loans using the person's valuables as collateral would be better because there's a higher probability of the family getting the stuff back and the terms would be clearer (I'm buying it for this amount and I will sell it at this price. If you keep making payments it won't be put out on display and I won't adjust the price, though I will have to make it available for purchase if you don't pay. Much better than selling it to someone for a pittance, only to see the guy marking it up tenfold the next day).
Pawn shops are horribly predatory, but they're not at the level of hanging out at the hospital and deliberately exploiting the desperate and the terminally ill.
So the real devil is capitalism and our medical system
Finger Prince? I don't think so.
A man of culture, I see.
We were CHILDREN
I was TA for mayfields' kid's Spanish class. They had the best excuse I ever heard. The FBI stole my Spanish homework
As a forensic scientist having flashbacks to professional practice and ethics courses, I sincerely hope you look into Englert in the next part.
He was involved in the OJ case and his testimony put multiple parents in prison for the murders of their own children. David Camm and Julie Rae live rent free in my head forever now.
On the microexpressions thing, Munecat covers them in a deep dive on body language "experts" here: th-cam.com/video/Y0VQyEY-B2I/w-d-xo.html And there's a link in the description to the parts that specifically cover microexpressions. My own field was anthropology-- physical anthropology as well as archaeology-- and even while she was bringing the topic and its history up, there were alarm bells in my head about the methodology. Sure enough, as she goes on, it's pretty clear that it's about as scientifically rigorous as phrenology...
At best.
Two things stand out to me among many, many problems with microexpressions. Any subject where the core research is obfuscated by "trade secrets" should be viewed with deep, deep suspicion. It's not like trade secrets for faster processing or better ways of translating input and output. While your specific methodology and output of a technical product might be obfuscated, the actual science behind how different chips work or programming work is fairly well known. This would be like if someone was saying "Yeah, I can control traffic flow for this major intersection in an old, complicated city with my Magic Box here. It works by electricity!"
Which goes to the other, and more condemning problem, in my opinion. The science being bad and "trust me, bro" research is horrible enough in life or death or freedom situations, but because of the aforementioned trade secrets thing that Ekman, I think it was, was pulling, it violates a crucial part of the right to a fair trial and to confront an accuser. You cannot tell me that something is evidence, even a trial over a misdemeanor, if you are also telling me you won't share the basis of how it was done. That leaves no possibility of confrontation, of cross-examination, of counter-experts, or really, of any form of real way to look at evidence or procedures to find if impropriety, error, or other source has tainted the whole thing. That would, should be enough to treat any such claim or testimony as being equivalent to a psychic's.
That's a great video, too.
Regarding the “trade secrets” thing, the reason they’ll usually give is that “if people know what I’m looking for, they’ll come up with counter play,” which you’ll notice was the same excuse Trump gave when he refused to talk about his foreign policy plans. An excuse he had to use because he didn’t have any foreign policy plans
Really big hospitals have whole shopping centers and definitely restaurants or diner/cafes in them. You gotta figure, people are in there for months at a time. You basically live there and anyone visiting you regularly basically lives there, too. So you can go down there and grab a nice gift for grandma from the antique store or grab a nice sit-in meal or just something else to look at that isn't a hospital ward.
Evans had the same reaction as me to the little wine testing tangent :) I also love research that debunk previously held strong beliefs. Also the police dog thing is absolutely true. They /can/ find stuff in a semi trailer on their own though, but in search stops like the usual ones they'd rather pay attention to what their pet pig reacts to.
its 100% a tactic on a pull-over. odors can linger long after they have been removed and something as small as a car could just trigger an instant signal from the dog because the smell permeates everything.. but that's not useful so they rely on you to give signals... as mentioned stare dead at the cop standing with you and either talk to them or say nothing.
To be clear, family from a wine area, ther are differences, that can be tasted legitimate, and ther are small differences you can learn to notice,
but i wont pretend a lot can just be theatre. Because wines have different qualities and flavour, but also i imagine there is a lot theatre about it. I doubt it cant be theatre. Through i would say decent wine, hasnt to be expensive , and never dring out of a plastic package, but a lot isd decently priced aviable in the supermarket.
I also know people have different tastes , so, what wine someoe likes can be, its personal taste too what type. I just mean real good wine you taste really. But there probably, most people probably dont have refined through experienced tastebud tio care about the subtile, which is fine.
Seriously its like whiskey, literally, ther are flavours cant, matter , but also, most people probably dont care about minor differences.
And yeah it literally can be ther ewithout any love for wine details, just because it sells.
Ok wine is as different as any alcahol with different tastes. The different winesorts and that do differenciate in flavour, but also, most preople probably dont care about most there.
And its fine most people upon a reasonable priced glass bottle thats decent, dont care, and its fine.
Their pet pigs, perfect description.
I received a jury duty summons for next month. Gonna treat these episodes as required homework.
Just remember to learn about Jury Nullification.
@@OfficerRFriendly Also remember not to say the word "nullification" where the judge can hear you.
@@trioptimum9027 unless you want to skip jury duty. in which case the only two words out of my mouth are "jury nullification
"
@@OfficerRFriendly Your Honor, nury jullificatio-ah shoot.
19:19 My dad was a science teacher. I didn’t know as a kid that most people don’t cook with beakers and Erlenmeyer flasks. (Honestly best, people are missing out)
Is Part Two going to be uploaded?
Edit: Oh. Well. Hm. On listening to it on another platform, i got to hear Robert reading ad copy for BetterHelp, the data-selling scam that targets emotionally and psychologically vulnerable people. But not just reading the ad copy; opining on how much therapy has helped him and thus implying that BetterHelp can help you and, presumably, is a god product.
I have no issue with them for what ads get run on their show; you can't control if some white supremacist coffee buys ad space. You certainly *can* control if *you yourself* read ad copy, and then actively manipulate people with a personal anecdote, breaking from the ad copy to give a seemingly-genuine endorsement.
That is... Robert has lambasted people as bastards for less. And rightly so.
Are you sure Better Help is a scam? Tons of people have been sponsored by them.
Trying to match a bite mark to a specific set of teeth seems like it would be as accurate as trying to match a bruise on the back of your hand to a specific door knob
Wasn't that a major plot point on the TV show "The Wire" ?
I actually _have_ managed to alter one of my fingerprints by accident. I was stripping the plastic coat off electrical copper with my knife and I slipped and slit my thumb and it healed wrong and left a permanent pucker in the print.
As for the dogs, what would help to train scent dogs better is if you teach the dog to alert to a smell, then you work the course with the odor samples placed by someone who isn't the handler. That way, the handler doesn't know where the smells are and the dog can't look to the handler for a cue, they have to _find_ the odor source.
Also, quite frankly, the geologist has a better chance of IDing the rock that bludgeoned someone to death than the forensic bite mark analyst does. If the rock leaves dirt or particulate behind, that you can actually run chemical analysis on and that might tell you something, whereas teeth are all made of teeth.
Rock monster teeth are made of rocks. You'd need a geodontal specialist to analyze that.
Lmao can't believe he had use Boston accent in the script. 😂
HOLY SHIT! Listening to part 2 on spotify and just got an ad for Milwaukee police! I couldn't fucking believe it! 😅 had to comment somewhere. It was I. The ads that play before the show. Anyone else get this ad?
The antique store was there when the hospital was built, except back then it was just considered 'a store'
I love this podcast. Almost as much as Robert loves dilaudid.
This podcast is auditory Dilaudid.
@@r.w.bottorff7735I have actually fallen asleep to it.
I really wish these episodes included links in the description to the books that you cite. I've picked up a few of them; they're interesting reading.
Someone should ask that antique store guy to teach them the violin or blues guitar.
I have a slight gripe about your police dog thing, what you said is only partially true and only true of poorly trained dogs (which do tend to be in law enforcement!). Dogs who are well trained (usually by us dog nerds) do actually tell their handlers where scents are. Nosework, and barn hunt are two scent based sports that us dog nerds compete in and we go in blind without knowing where the odor or rat is hidden. A business example of dogs indicating appropriately to odor as well are bed bug detection and truffle hunters.
That being said, police organizations usually cheap out not only on the quality of their dogs, but the actual training and maintenance of training. They usually don't want to justify the costs of real training, and most of the training and maintenance is not done by knowledgeable people, it's pathetic. Overall I don't think police should have dogs because the level of mismanagement can be so heinous. And just overall stupidity. Ex. expecting a detection dog to be able to work all day and not understanding that scent fatigue is an actual thing.
The pigs aren't cheaping out by not justifying real training; they're not interested in evidence. They already have what they want, a portable Probable Cause Generator, why would they invest further to *lose* that?
@@youmukonpaku3168 Criminals, especially crackheads driving around with a trunk full of meth, are always angry when they get caught. Now...when I get you to confess because a squirrel looked at you too long and you are guilty...you are the moron, not the squirrel or me. I personally find it hilarious how much it works. Don't be a criminal, and this won't be a problem.
Where is part 2?
I have never had the sponsor announcements be followed up with sponsors, which gives this podcast a real fun friends in a basement vibe.
you can tell when someones not from tx when theyre confused by restaurants in the hospital 😂
You bring up some excellent points, but many of them are also quite outdated. There have been significant changes and groundbreaking research since many of your sources were written.
A couple Forensic Scientists that regularly listen to your show sent me the link when this came out. If you're ever interested in exploring this in more depth, let me know.
Later this month you can hear about the challenging issues facing DNA Examiners in the next episode of the Double Loop Podcast.
Where's part 2?
What happened to part 2?
Now I have to watch Galaxy Quest again after I'm done listening to this episode.
i also have been to a hospital with an antique gift shop and subway in it
Where's part two? 😧
33:35 Ben Grimm: I like this guy!
I heard a story about someone had gone to a doctor and on a scan , was told she had something thats very very seriously shortening her life. And nothing could be done and she should make peace.
She also got the, she eventually went to a more specualized hospital that, did debunk that.
Doctors can as easy misinterpret and have bias as anyone, thats why in severe cases at least second checks of another doctor, is usually good. Because doctors are people too and can make mistakes,
Medicine isnt as sure there, why retesting and tests are done usually repeated often.
One test with 90% accuracy has a 10% failure rate. Two tests with 90% accuracy has a 1% failure rate.
"hey judge we hypnotized these witnesses into telling us this guy was the culprit"
"sweet lock em up"
They briefly mention it at the start of the ep, and theyre probably too small potatoes for BTB, but id love for an episode about some of the so called body lanugage experts that have taken off recently. Its all bullshit and grifting and its going to get innocent people in trouble
Having studied/worked in forensic anthropology, my biggest takeaway is that vulnerable and traumatized people are the biggest targets of pseudoscientific grifters. Good to know the whole field of forensic science functions similarly!
This is similar to my job, which pertains to determining eligibility for public benefits. Like forensic science, my field has lots of objective criteria and is supposed to reach the correct conclusion every time. But in reality, the objective criteria contain numerous ambiguities; people applying the criteria have wildly different levels of knowledge, experience, bias, and interests; and there's only the barest layer of accountability around the process, so that in practice no one is ever really held accountable for mistakes. Oh, and one more thing: most of those targeted by our procedures are poor people.
So I'm a bastard, do an episode about me!
Forensic Proctology wasn't a phrase I thought i'd hear, but now that i've heard it....
Ive run a few DNA gels in a biomed class, and it's hard. you spend a week trying to do this and you end up with nothing because your partner doesn't know how to use a pipette or something.
Ooh, forensic bastards? I'm intrigued.
I've been in my fair share of hospitals, either as a patient, visitor, or occasionally for work purposes, almost all of them in Texas, and I've never seen anything like an antique store in one. Are you sure you weren't actually in an airport? That would still be weird, but it's at least a little more understandable.
ADAB!
I was listening to the part about dogs, so I was worried that you mean all dogs, not dentists
If you don't cover Cameron Todd Willingham in Part 2, please consider adding a Part 3, because his is one of the most egregious examples of forensic junk science _anywhere, ever._
Even if fingerprint analysis was way less error prone than it is, it would still be problematic because we don't know how likely it is for any two random strangers to have fingerprints that (while probably not identical) are extremely similar, especially to the average human observer.
Like, humans are relatively good at spotting basic similarities and differences between two things, but a lot of our brains also tend to miss fine details, which is probably where a lot of the real distinctions between human fingerprints are. So if two fingerprints have 6 points where their patterns overlap, or 9 points at which the two patterns overlap, that's only helpful if we know how likely it is for any two random people's fingerprints to have 6 points, or 9 points, of overlap. Human DNA is unique, too, but humans still share a majority of genes/gene sequences with each other, and even with other nonhuman life forms on Earth. Similarly, even if fingerprints are all technically unique, they could still share a lot of visual traits, enough for a human to have trouble distinguishing between them both.
(This actually seems like the kind of thing an "AI"/machine learning algorithm could be really good at. No knowledge of context or "common sense" is necessary to just distinguish between two patterns in a vacuum, and tally up the number of similarities between them, including on an infinitesimally detailed scale. Especially if the fallibility of fingerprint analysis as evidence was known going in.)
I love this show
I'm super glad now that while in boy scouts I didn't waste time on the super easy 3 requirement fingerprinting merit badge.
LOL, this is one the funniest intros I've heard. Gotta love real estate fraud and great intro for Dr. :D
I usually hate the opening convos, like don't bore us get to the chorus, but that thing about the antique shop in the hospital run by the devil had me howling! omg was that funny.
Thanks for this comment bc it made me not skip the opening for once and it was worth it
@@vfanon Thank you for this comment! Because I thought I was the only one who would skip his intros, I'm not alone!
The opening intros are usually the best part wdym
Oh my God, I had the exact same pull over experience in Texas because of my Oregon plates, this cop desperately wanted me to have a weed in my car and I am positive that stupid dog that I waited for is trained to just signal every time
My hospital has a dunkin donuts
Rock Lobster for Prez '24
Anyone other than Joey B and Donald Trump would be great.
wait wait, so the dentist was the good guy?
Honestly i bet bite marks could only do much if something really unique to the biter is shown like multiple missing teeth towards the front of the mouth. But even then it wouldn't be a perfect match and more a "i think we can rule out some of these suspects cause they have their top front teeth and the biter didn't"
I think we need a new way to refer to the great majority of forensic science that entirely unscientific. I propose pig magic
Even though theres different techniques or whatever to try and solve crimes, theres so many examples of people who werent police that did the research and investigating to find out what happened. Hell, even if the police are warned about whats going to happen it still gets flubbed up 🤦
Rock monster for president indeed
The accuracy of Robert's Boston accent proceeds apace. The quality will soon be unsurpassed even by natives.
Finger prints are DEFINITELY not unique... we have found matching prints of UNRELATED people, and identical twins have identical finger prints... i have also met someone born without finger prints... an old man that thought he had the power of invisibility. odd fellow. wasnt invisible. 😂
Identical twins do not have the same fingerprints, you were thinking of DNA. Also, the lack of fingerings in itself can be considered a defining characteristic because you have to go all the way down to the basal lamina layer in order to make a permanent change.
Gorignak 2024!!!
They look like big, strong hands...
I sell weed, and that wine tasting thing is very much the case with anything that has terpenes or flavonoids tbh. It's a valuable part of the sale though! Like, is it bad that I can influence the high the customer has by emphasizing certain traits of the weed? Probably, but humans are really suggestible. I feel a little bad about it sometimes but it's a good lever to pull, and I'm gonna be real, people pretty much ask for you to do it. Like, they don't SAY it, but underneath their words it's obvious they they want you to say things in a way that they can convince themselves things about the weed they've already decided to buy, or they will want you to reinforce ideas they have about certain flavor notes and effects that they believe those have on them specifically. DO they get paranoid on pine-y weed? Because they believe they do, yes, yes they do. Does pinene cause anxiety? Could do. Doesn't matter! Whatever makes the experience better for them, eh.
Love from a Shark3ozero and Vaush fan!
Medical city?
I'm not one to complain, but where have Cody and Katy been?
I mean, they still are putting out Some More News episodes?
bias / buy us
Im not going to tell you where i am.. but heres enough information for you to find it in one google..
They seem to have an impressive collection of champagne glasses.
First
Where's part two goddamnit?
Does anyone know where part two of this episode is?
where part two
But the ad I got was for how plastic is the most environmentally friendly form of packaging
The wine story reminds me of an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit where they did the same thing with water. They gave patrons several samples, hyping them each up. They were all from the garden hose.
The most important takeaway is that law and science are very different.
I'm in Texas and I've also seen an antique store at a hospital