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hello lovely puca:) can you make a video about the uses of psychedelics and entheogens like henbane, ayahuasca, mushrooms etc in magic, paganism, shamanism etc?
Hi Angela, I've literally only just discovered your site and you work . . . Thank You. I grew up Goth in the Eighties and Nineties and yes there were people who discretely practised Croweleyism ( if there's such a thing) and Thelema. I was part of Thelema's antithesis called the Christ Consciousness Gnosis. The modern day Father being Samael Aun Weor. Samael Aun Weor (SAW) for short is the 'father' of the modern Gnostic Movement BUT steers clear of the Freemasons, any form of the Rosicrucian Movement and Blavatsky's Theosophy. To make matters worse there were 3 Gnostic Masters. They are or were I. Master Samael ii, Master Rabolu iii. Master Belsebub I was taught by the latter, Master Belsebuub. He used his eartly name, Mark Pritchard when he taught me. WARNING - Unfortunately the Samael Aun Weor followers are many and varied. They do not acknowledge Master Rabolu which isn't much of a problem as only one of his texts remains. It's called The Rebel Eagle. Master Rabolu- basically gets rid off the waffle of Samael Aun Weor and strips it down to the basics. A magnificent book called The Rebel Eagle. The problem. . . Master Belsebuub. He is, or WAS supposed to be quote, ' a Nine Year Old female ' First PROBLEM - the fanatical adherents of SAW hang on to his every word as if it were gospel truth. Samael Aun Weor through his own admission, and as late as 1978 said that much of his work possess errors. His great Spiritual works, absolutely choc full of errors. E,g. Jesus in the Last Supper drank from a Cup made out of Sheer Jade carved out by the finest Buddhist stone cutters. In others it was Silver; In others it was the purest finest Gold in precious Stones like Emeralds etc AND finally straight out of Raiders of the Last Crusade I.e. the grail fit for a Carpenter made out of Wood etc. Other examples- Krishnamurti WAS a Master. Jedda himself said he wasn't a Master; Chakra Points - if you focus on the 7 Chakra Centre's, then make them vibrate clockwise you will receive extraordinary powers, completely forgetting about the Kundalini Serpentine energies Samael Aun Weor- wrote a book called The Revolution of Belsebuub. In it Belsebuub was born in, at that time, a 9 year old girl in France. A huge and gross error. Samael fanatics adhere to this gross error. Read the book. It's very poorly written and is all over the place. Mark Pritchard was born in Wales, He discovered gnosis in the mid-Seventiesand ran schools of Gnosis by the mid Nineties. Mark taught me from very late 1995 to early 1998. The importance of Mark Pritchard (Master Belsebuub) isn't his history, the accusations against him including a well oiled slanderous campaign in the USA which he won in a US Court of Law. Mark Pritchard's greatest prize literally was his explanation of the Nag Hammadi essays and scripts. Mark's analysis of the letters between James and Peter, for example, were amazing. Mark utilised simple Spiritual language. This is the real loss here. Mark's exegesis were very good verging on brilliant .👏 👌 Unfortunately the genuine legal custodians of The Nag Hammadi Library were approached by the Samael Aun Weor group, now calling themselves Glorian Publishing. The custodians of The Nag Hammadi Library ceased to have anything to do with the flowers of Samael Aun Weor. The reason I have taken the time to write such long Comments is that I niticed that you mentioned the intricacies of the Rosicrucian Movement in Mexico and a new Awakening Gnostic Movement in Mexico and Colombia I the very late 1950's. I have no problem with Samael Aun Weor, his genuine depth of works and his exegesis of his 5 books. His greatest being a book called HDK OR " Yes there is a Hell, Yes there is a Devil and Yes there is Karma "
Thanks for shedding light (cakes) on this subject. I know several practicing Wiccans that firmly believe that Wicca came to what it is today whole from the European Witchcraft tradition without alternative influences.
Okay I am glad I waited and held my tongue on this subject until I got to see your video. As a Wiccan of a more traditional pedigree I have some very definite opinions about this. My view is largely based on conversations I have had with elders and from the book Doreen Valiente Witch by P. Heselton. Doreen relates that she had a manuscript of the Golden Dawn grade rituals prior to joining Gardner's Coven. She also seems to have been very familiar with Crowley's writings. At one point she confronted Gerald about the fact that a lot of the material in the book of shadows was drawn from the Golden Dawn / Crowley. This would presumably be an earlier version of Book of Shadows than we have now. Gardner according to Doreen admitted to her that many of the Witch rituals were sparse and there wasn't enough to make a full tradition out of. So according to Doreen's account he used the Golden Dawn material and Crowley material to flesh a lot of it out. He then basically called on Doreen to do some significant rewrites to the rituals and other portions of the BOS. My opinion is basically on the minimalistic spectrum. I think without Leland, Murray, the Golden Dawn and whatever folk magic Gardner came into contact with Wicca would be very different. I think without Crowley Wicca would be largely similar to what it is but I do think Wicca was definitely influenced by Crowley. I still say the single biggest influence to Gardner was his folk magic contacts and the excitement he had for the idea of a Witch Cult. I am definitely a non expert in this subject and I am coming at it from a practitioners perspective so I am likely highly biased. I still think that Gerald's story is largely in the realm of truthful yet exaggerated. My beliefs in reincarnation lead me to think that Gerald may have been initiated into a Coven of Witches who were Witches in a previous life and reincarnated with a mission to revive the craft. This is just my personal view but I have heard others express it as well. Also if you research this topic there are some very strange confluences that are hard to explain where just really unlikely circumstances appear to align at just the right time. So it would appear whatever the case the Gods had very definite plans that seemed to work out the right way.
Effectively I'd say that the Golden Dawn rather than individual ex members probably had a major influence on most western magic.Wicca tends to be more nature based than the GD but the influence is still there to various degrees.I wonder if Gardener encountered the ghost of Elvis in Memphis? Obviously unrestricted by space/time as Elvis only merged with the Force in 1977 the year Star Wars came out!
This has always been an interesting topic for me, but I've never really found any sources I could consider trustworthy given the web of complex motivating factors involved in the telling of this particular tale. I appreciate how you broke down those motivating factors and effectively represented the differing accounts. That really seems to be the approach that is needed for the kind of work your field is currently engaged in.
I think I remember Doreen Valiente writing about the influence of Crowley being very palpable in the material she inherited as Gardner's high priestess that she then mostly edited out when she rewrote a huge portion of the book of shadows. I can't remember which of her books she mentions this in though. It may also be part of an interview she did with the Farrars in The Witches' Bible. I know I read it somewhere...
It is worth pointing that Gardner and W.B. Crow were at the time of their cooperation with Crowley members of the same milieu of occultists with eclesiastical leanings, which was centered about Hugh George de Willmott Newman (Mar Gregorius) and his Catholicate of the West. W.B. Crow was de Willmott Newman's consecrator, and the later has in turn given a conditional consecration to Frederick Dorian Herbert, who at one time has ordained Gardner as a priest in his church.
By studying under Crowley, Gardner had a solid structure of occult philosophy. I believe he mixed it with ancient Pagan rites and practices and in time his hybrid contribution was hybridized and adjusted by his successors . It's what happens when you write things down.
I feel as if Crowleys students of note (the ones that history has remembered at least, and ones that founded their own traditions) all either made complimentary philosophies and religions or expounded on his traditions. Being a student of wicca in my youth and of a few of Crowley's students (i.e. a.o. spare, Kenneth grant, Israel regardie, Jack Parsons, Alan Moore, etc.) I can see the need for the various cults to combine and continue together for their own goods as they all seem to be parts of the same philosophy.
Not saying that would be a bad thing, I am personally more in favor of syncretism in my own beliefs and practices as well, but what would that look like to you? Again not shooting the idea down I just wonder what something like that would look like without it branching off and becoming its own thing like many other traditions/thoughts as you have noted above. Can organization happen without some form of dogma? The idea was that in Ancient Egyptian and Hellenistic times there was temple worship and private rituals that may be complementary but different so I know it's not impossible. What do you think would be a good central point or idea?
@@HUNarutofan19 elcipse, wicca as cult of moon and thelema as cult of sun, the priestess of this religion would be consecrated unto the moon, the priest similarly to the sun. In the chaos of spare is their union realized. In chaos are the patterns of the various systems laid bare. while the names of the specific deities change from pantheon to pantheon their atributes, those things they rule, lay under them. I agree, in a personal syncretism is the best methods, however, i only propose the union of these streams as such as they (in my mind at least) lack what the others provide and complete the system. Thelema is too male and solar, to the phallic extreme. Wicca similarly disposed but of the lunar. Chaos magic is like an explosion in a void, great noise and power but unguided(at least in modern practicioners that start there and stay there in my opinion) Parsons, achad, and others that expound on thelema are needed to counter the severe bias of Crowley and complete the system. These going forward could be the foundation of an understanding that could be used to rebuild the pagan cultus, the names of the old gods would not be forgotten but renewed, a new understanding of the world and it's forces. I see the way forward through horrifying and great synthesis, the great family tree of the gods to be filled and in the lower branches we will find YHWH under his parents of EL and ASHERA.
About 10 Years ago people were bashing wicca on line and I said then , " It's not right to talk about wicca like it's a weaker version of witchcraft , or ceremonial magick". I told them we have more in common than you think. I remember saying "we are all brothers and sisters in the craft." And now Angela you have provided an actual link between , ceremonial and wicca .
Did we see the same video? Because I certainly didn't hear anything more than yes, the two men had met, but not that there's any way to know how much influence Crowley actually had on the creation of Wicca. Btw... Wicca is very much a religion. "Traditional witchcraft" is not. Witchcraft has been around far longer than any religion anyone can name, and in many different cultures. And it also exists right along side, and is often entangled with, whatever religion is prominent in a particular culture. Irish, German, English, or American Indian, they all have their witches and magic-users... as well as very different religious practices, in most cases.
@@guarddog318 She explained it all perfectly in the video about the influence of Thelema on wicca , and how Crowley's writings we're used by Gerald to teach . Watch Angela's lecture again and also see the comments.
@@guarddog318 True, although Witchcraft tends to be based in shamanistic/animistic beliefs. While Ceremonialism stems from Semitic views on cosmogony of the world and presents working in hierarchical manner. Individual Systems of Magic tend to mix methodology, beliefs and technical explanation from both groups. So Witchcraft and Ceremonialism are not traditions, nor systems. It's a group of traditions and systems that share similarities in methods, beliefs and philosophy. Interestingly if you have American Voodoo and Brazilian Santeria you may want to think if them as part of the same tradition, but reality is that they are separate traditions with common roots. Often within religious tradition there will be multiple magical systems practiced for different purposes simultaneously.
I don't think it matters too much how involved Crowley was, because the final product is most important. I choose not to idolize or speak too much of Crowley because I don't like who he was as a person
I've literally just found your channel. Well, I wouldn't say that I found it all by myself. I was watching something about Demonology and the bloke recommended you and your channel. So here I am. Haaaa!!! I only been here just over an hour now and I've been well looked after, with the amount of occult knowledge and understanding of the unseen forces at play. I have subscribed to your channel now too, so thanks again for your dedicated research, your time and effort. Everything about this channel is absolutely EXCELLENT!!! One Love.... Blessings.... I'm gonna recommend your channel to the people in my life who are interested in the esoteric knowledge and the occult. Fascinating, Angela. X
Grazie, dottoressa... It's good to know the history. I don't know which end of the spectrum the truth lies in, but at minimum, Crowley was a spark... for which I am thankful.
@@drangelapuca I believe it was Philip Heselton who wrote about how ludicrous such a reason put into the mouth of Crowley sounds, since many of Crowley's rituals are notorious for an almost masochistic worship of deified priestesses and sexualised goddesses.
Yes Aleister Crowley and Gerald Gardner where into the Craft. Although Gerald had re defined the use of Magic in ways that people could explore the ways of contacting the Divine Gods and Goddesses and working with their powers along side you through their guidance and teaching called WICCA. Although WICCA progressed to different types. I myself work with many Gods and Goddesses in the spiritual and know of around 200 or so. But lately working with a few. Learning to call them to circle and getting to know them makes them have more confidence in you as a practitioner. If you are dedicated they know. I myself would teach classes, but I have no where in my area to do so. Good luck on your journeys. Blessed Be sweetie. I have been busy lately with all going on, but my Angels, Guides, Dragons, Fae, I work with can always assist you. Protection for you always. Basically Aleister Crowley was darker in practice in what he did. I also work with Celtic for power as well. Love, Archangel Michael
Gardner pulled content from many different sources, including OTO and Thelema, but without Crowley's influence he may not have had the confidence to create his own movement as Crowley had done with Thelema some 4 decades earlier.
Lol 6:30 I could see Crowley saying that even if he meant it as a joke. Either way that was hilarious X'D awesome video and I hope you keep up the great work. I love the occult and getting to get as much info as I can so channels like yours help me on my exploration.
Darn, I just so wish I could remember the name of that little book I read regarding a brief history of modern occultism that told the story of Gerald Gardner's commissioning of Crowley to write the primary rites of Wicca. It's been bugging the heck out of me since your first video to do with the relationship between the two men and their respective systems. Why does the surname "Green" or "Greene" come to mind so strongly? I've searched the internet up and down, back to front and through and through and nothing. Nothing at all. It's as if I dreamed the whole thing. But I DID read it! It was a relatively little book of maybe 200 pages in length. It told of Jack Parson's relationship with L Ron Hubbard and Hubbard's running away from Parsons and a project the two had entered into together with Parson's share of the invested capital as well as his lover. It eloquently and briefly ran through loads of little anecdotes and stories regarding the foundation of occultism as it is practiced today. And yet, poof! Perhaps it was a bit of strange magic in itself. An enjoyable little romp through modern Western occultism's history that was enchanted to vanish entirely after being read. Will I ever know? Gods know I've asked after this little volume before, yet nothing. Well, one person did say that he/she seemed to remember reading the same book, but there was no conclusive author or title to be shared between the two of us. As the yellow, furry, little expert Taoist once said time and time again, "Oh, bother."
My grandfather was Filipino. I'm a Feri Tradition initiate and I'm curious about Filipino indigenous religion and Witchcraft. Do you have any information? To answer your question, read Rosemary Guiley's Encyclopedia of Witchcraft. It explodes many different Traditions, including my own, Feri.
Even though Ray Buckland poo poos the connection in his books, I once met him back in the 1990s (1997 I think?) at a talk he was giving in Michigan. One on one he totally admit this and told me about this charter Crowley had given Gardner making him the head of the O.T.O on the Isle of Mann. He said he always had this charter, signed by Crowley, hanging up for everyone to see. It was just sad that certain forces were compelling him to say the exact opposite in his books. I'll leave it to you all to decide what those forces were....
I think a view of modern "Gardnerian" Wicca is impossible without an appreciation of just how much Valiente overhauled it and stripped the Crowley stuff out. Her description of Crowley in "Witchcraft for Tomorrow" (2012, Hale Books, p17) has me howling every time I read it.
I find it quite funny that people can't get to the truth of something that happened a mere 70+ years ago, yet still want to claim that they know the truth about events that happened more than 2,000 years back. I've studied religion and the history of most current religions for most of my life, and the best I can come up with is that what we see now bears very little resemblance to what was originally created, or claimed to be "the truth", in any of the religions recognised today. I tend to think that the fact so few people fully understand that Wicca is a modern, FABRICATED religion is ample evidence that Christianity itself is also nothing more than the word(s) of those that had a need and reason for bringing it into being. ...that, and the fact there are so many versions/variations of it. I suppose it all goes to show that even when people write things down, there's no guarantee that what they're writing is either accurate or truthful. Especially not if there's some sort of financial or personal gain to be had.
In my opinion, ( which means nothing 🤔) , we could also say that crowley was heavily influenced by the Order Of the Golden Dawn and thus gardners Wicca wouldn't exist without them. Or them " the GD " wouldn't exist without the influences of the Free masons wescott and the other two who's names escape me. The OGD took from eliphus levi , john dee, and so many others. All that maters is....does it work ? Does it make us better? For me. The jury is still out on the Wiccan case. I'll decide when it's mold sets 😉
Crowley was an intelligent charismatic man, his work influenced many during his lifetime. He is also widely misunderstood as being purely evil and part of that was his own doing. The Crowley magic dust is still felt to this day through various offshoot religions and is infused into popular culture. I can't say for certain, but Crowley seems to be the foundation of Wicca. There's an OTO chapter (L.A. suburb) in my area, whether they have anything to do with Crowley's original organization I don't know. It's just a tiny storefront.
Bruh evils greatest trick is they tell you they are not evil. Freemasons traffic children and in pretty sure this symbol is right behind the White House which is connected to the temple of set and comet pizza 👁🎭 also his child was Barbra bush. I don’t support these sick bloodlines and their process of the 5 P’s prison system, philosophy, paganism, polytheism, and polygamy. These are used to lower the consciousness and vibration of aboriginal people and all of the other races too. Truth over tricks
Wicca is first inspired from the ancient pagan culture and view on witchcraft, magick and the divine. Thelema is a philosofic movement, as I see it, yet, The Charge of the Goddess, by Gardner, includes both details from both Crowley and Leeland (Stregheria, influenced by Stregoneria)
I think it's inaccurate to say Wicca "came from Thelema". In my mind Gardener tried haphazardly to make sense of a pan-European religion that didn't really exist in the way he might have imagined it using the writings of his contemporaries and feminist scholars who were studying the witch trials to make sense of them. It bothers me when people claim that Wicca is "the oldest religion", because most of the traditions and sources that were drawn upon for Gardener to explain Wicca (Aradia, Egyptian-Greco-Roman religion interpreted by Hermetic minds years later, Witch cult hypothesis) were all relatively new ideas at his time and the vast majority of them were widely debunked. That's not to say his history as a Thelemite didn't influence Wicca; I strongly suspect his focus on the Goddess was a product of Crowley's own obsession with the Divine Feminine (in the form of Babalon, and indeed if you read Crowley's writings Babalon has a consort and daughter in a similar vein that Aradia has Lucifer as Diana's consort and Aradia is their daughter. Which means Gardener already had a predisposition to believe this kind of narrative as inherently true). Not to mention it seems similar to both Tantric and Alchemical writings, which Crowley also studied extensively (Crowley practiced both Buddhist and Hindu yoga and as an initiate of the Golden Dawn he was no doubt at least familiar with alchemy). So while I think Wicca is a modern attempt that was somewhat biased at the start to recreate supposed witch cults based on a debunked theory, I think the core theology is ancient enough that Wiccans actively look for signs of Wicca in traditions that had no concept of it and it makes the religion look older than it really is. Also it should be pointed out that Wicca developed over time and given the nature of the groups both men were involved in, it's possible that the Occult Revival in Britain (and this is what I strongly believe after doing both personal and college-related research) developed a bit of a "small world" syndrome where most of the members of the movement were involved in the same few groups, had similar backgrounds and shared ideas amongst themselves. After all, Gardener was a former Rosicrucian and Crowley a Golden Dawn initiate, both of which were Kabbalistic and Alchemical occult groups and had a few members in common.
Interesting to see how a body of knowledge can give birth to different forms of knowledge that might seem unrelated even if it’s essence is the same 🤔🤔
It was so long ago that I read it that I can neither remember the title of the book nor the author's name, although the surname "Green" seems to be shrouded in the midst of a cloud of possible complete forgetfulness and I do remember it being a rather small little book, easy to read on the subject of a brief history of modern magickal traditions. I clearly remember it divulging information regarding poor Victor Neuberg's trip into the desert with Crowley that germinated "Liber 418", certain of Crowley's opinions on the pomposity of A.E. Waite, and then relevant to this video, the author claimed Gardner had commissioned Crowley to write the rituals of Wicca later published by Gardner. The book's scope wasn't limited to these two, but did emphasize the importance of Crowley's contributions to modern occultism and comparative religion. I think it began with Frazer's "Golden Bough". I've seen at least one documentary that also pointed to a very broke and chemically troubled Crowley's welcoming of a commission to write Wicca's rituals and have read the same in at least one of three biographies of Crowley, though again, I'm a lousy source because I read and saw all this stuff over such a short period about two decades ago and took no notes. But who knows? Maybe that foggy "Green" might lead to something. Sorry to have been so useless in so many words. And hey, thanks again for the video! It's created a little project for me and you, as always, were delightful.
Vaguely remember coming across a similar reference years ago. Now whether its hearsay and anecdotal or able to be validated is another matter. i personally think it's likely to be true given the similarities of many of the early rituals of Gardnerian Wicca and Crowley's interpretations of the Golden Dawn and Masonic rituals. But still anecdotal. If you come across that book or author, please let us know as we would love to do some further research on it.
Hello, I am brand new to your channel but I came here from religion for breakfast. Since you are a scholar in the field, I have a question that I’m hoping you can answer or point me to the direction of an answer you’ve already made in a video or an online blog post. It is my understanding of Crowley That the research we have indicates how much he absolutely made up himself. Things in his books or that he said that he claimed were ancient secrets are, as far as I know, believed by scholars to be absolute nonsense. Do you have alternative information to that? I would be very curious to investigate it.
If you really want to have a fun topic, start looking into the spiritual beliefs of Ronald Reagan. It's a little tricky, because from the day he took office until today, you have tons of Christian authors writing books and articles about how Reagan was a strong Born Again Christian, but Reagan never attended a Christian church outside of a funeral or a wedding, and in his personal life, we have numerous accounts that he was heavily into the spiritualist movement, believing in communing with the spirits of the dead and astrology, and was almost certainly involved in occult groups before he went into politics. Something his political followers spend a lot of ink on paper trying to deny. Personally, I don't like Reagan, but I always found it interesting that a guy who used the Satanic Panic for political benefit and at the cost of real human suffering for non-Christians, was precisely the kind of guy his followers were scared of.
I tend to agree with the maximalist view after this video as far as encouragement go, but I do think Gardner developed Wicca completely independently. One question - who would you say was more successful in the end - Thelema or Wicca?
If Gardner is accepted as initiated into S.S. by AC then Gardner is authorised to create new Lodges & modes of teaching. Quote from AC’s “Essay on the Structure & System of the Great White Brotherhood” P698 “Members of the order (A.A.) are entitled to found Orders dependent on them-selves on the lines of the R.C. And G.D. Orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony with the A.A. as regards the essential principles.”
Eclectic Paganism with a feminist bend was bound to emerge this way or that in the English-speaking West. In 1938 in America Gleb Botkin established the Church of Aphrodite and Robert Graves published The White Goddess in 1948. American feminist witches of late 1960-s - 1970-s found Thelemic legacy in Wicca absolutely redundant, and mostly dispensed with it, though diligently adopting the historical mythology behind the notions of witch-cult and fertility religion. Thelema was itself (as Hutton shows) largely in line with modern cultural development which tended towards post-Christian "paganish" religiosity and magic, the same development that brought about Wicca. Traditional witchcrafts would emerge without Wicca, perhaps, themselves borrowing from the more grim aspects of Thelemic ritual (maybe, they did emerge before Wicca).
Have you done anything about the relationship between Crowley and rocket scientist Jack Parsons. It seems to have been covered pretty well in the book “Sex and Rockets” but maybe there are other sources for the story. Parsons is a very late example of a scientist who was also very interested in the occult, and actually practiced the ceremonies. I seem to remember that the book portrays Crowley in a bad light. I think Crowley did a lot of “what thou wilt” with Parsons’ wife 😅
Oh no, I was very confused about the details of what I wrote about above. Parsons indeed became a member of OTO and Crowley took a liking to him. It was L, Ron Hubbard who became friends with Parsons and active in OTO, actually assisting Parsons to perform black magic rituals. It was Hubbard who ran off with Parsons wife, and helped steal Parson’s life savings. Hubbard of course later became involved in a different kind of magic, the magic of cult and personality.
Very interesting and informative: I learned so much and can see how this works its way through in practice. Your conclusion regarding the relative importance or significance of Crowley's input into the published ritual work used by wiccans seems to be borne out. (Bearing in mind, of course, that most practising Gardnerians would use oathbound material. ) Personally, I find Gardner's materials possibly more eclectic and catholic (in the sense of broad-based) than Crowley. There are liberal sprinklings of masonic ritual too. Which I can also attest. Splendid scholarship applied to Gardner's BTW. You perform a real and invaluable service. Thank you.
Im gonna need to ask for much longer content than this.. on such important topics u cant do 10 minute stuff. This needs an hour at least. And u need to show some of the research and sources.
I will say this as a long time Wiccan . Personal I would never disrespect Crowley influence on Magick overall. He suffered from drug addiction which is sad. All he did with magick is important. Saying that Gardner is the Founder of Wicca 🌛🌝🌜
To feed the algorithm, .. Crowley, " Do as you wilt, no more and no less." The old question to put forth, .. what can you Will yourself to do ? First part is to develop the Will to educate yourself on as many matters as your brain can handle. Just remember you have years to learn things so do not rush and over cram your life. This is my view after 44 years of life. ... I over cram as a teenager and it did not work out to well for me, so pace yourself. I had a collapse and took four years to rebuild myself.
I have a habit of butting in to these conversations. I don`t know why. I was raised in the RC tradition and don`t follow any of this but I did spend an afternoon with Gerald Gardner long ago. He struck me a a genuine lovely chap and whilst I cannot recall everything he said the thrust of his reasoning was that he was carrying on an ancient English tradition. It has been suggested by Hutton that he was misdirected in this assumption by Margaret Murray and the extent of that tradition was over emphasised.
I'm no expert, but I do know quite a few Wiccans. They clam its the earliest of religions. Way before either man was born. I understand the influence both contribute, but Wiccans would absolutely be around no matter what. I also want to say the internet is going to be a be influence as well. I have a friend who post on TH-cam her rituals, as well as yourself with videos like this. But Wiccan will most likely be around in one for or another for thousands of years to come.
The oldest religion that we know anything about can be demarcated into several ways. Oldest Archaelogical religion. Belief in mother earth goddess, goddess of fertility. Based on figurines up to 200,000 years in age. Shamanistic tribal beliefs. Middle East but spread into Europe. Sort of extant, based on cave drawing in australia dating to about 40,000 years that have extant meanings in austroaboriginals. Ancestral worship dating to about 10,000 years ago in Jericho, given global spread of these. tendencies in other religions, older. Ancestral worship is still extensively practiced in asuan religions. Shrine based religious practices seen in Catal Hoyuk and the appearance of the first ox-horned deities to about 9500. Gods of animal husbandry (10kya) appear to follow the gods of crop fertikity (12kya). Worship to gods of fertility are still practiced broadly. The white temple in Uruk (Kubulla) from 6ka possibly to the god Anu represents the longest continual evolving religion. Historically validated to about 5kya Anu is the same god as ilu in Akkad and El Elyon of the bible, the books of Judges, Samuel, Solomon, song of psalms extensively describing the canaanite form of the religion that grew in 2300 to 2500 bc and continued to evolve in Israel during the late bronze age collapse. In canaan the patheon had a symbolic 70 gods, many of them reoresenting a polity, like Salem (of Jerusalem) the god of Dawn. Apotheosis might reoresent some of the divine entities (e.g. Kub'uba source of Kh'eba, h'eba, possibly hera and other female divines). The Abrahamic religions can trace their oldest traditions backwards. Examples is the song of Deborah, it gives reference to Yahu, identified in the Ebla cunieform tablets as Ea, in other places as El. Shamgar of Anath, Beth Anath is a temple site in Israel to the canaanite god Anat. Beth Shemesh in the book of Samuel is a temple site to the Babylonian/canaanite god Utu/Shamash, the sun god and brother to the goddess Ishtar (Biblical, Astarte, Sumerian Inanna, 2nd high god of Uruk and took the White temple under sargon) The proto indoeuropean sky god is probably linked to earlier Anu worship and spread 4000 years ago under the spread of indoeuropean language. The likely path of spread is through war and traders in Eastern Anatolia, protoindoeuropen kurgan culture into the pontic steppe. The gods of the pantheon, in part become the SE European pagan gods of old. The pagan gods also spread out of Hattic, Hittite, Phonecian and Minoan Culture into greece. Rhea, Cybil, Uranuos (Anu), Artemis, Apollo, Aphrodite, Adonis all appear to have origins in the East versus the Indoeuropean gods. Derived from the Indoeuropean gods also around 4kya are the vedic traditions that evolved in SW asia as Zoroastrianism and India as several religions. More or less all gods are based in pagan gods, this includes the biblical divinities. While the word pagan refers to the gods of folk, one has to imagune that the Mesopotamian/Canaanite gods reigned supreme until the late bronze when egypt assume dominion of all the lands south of Ebla. The fringe confederation of tribes were the Israelites late in the period, still loyal to El Elyon. From the south scattered tribes loyal to yahu (later Yahweh) a possible vestige of a mystic Enki/Ea cult syncretized with an Afro/Arabian volcanoe god (possibly around medina) expanded northward into the region South and East of Jerusalem. In the iron age Yahweh expanded in power as El Elyon based culture fell to the assyrian control (High god Asshur). The ideal of Yahudah is based on a mythical tribe in Israel and seperates from 'gentiles' (not adherant to mosaic laws). Essentially its an 'us' versus 'them' city state distinction in the second temple period. It is important to note that when Jerusalem collapsed, the surruonding polities continued to function during the late iron age.
If you’re not a born again Christian then you belong to the devil.🤷🏼♂️ SALVATION 👇🏻 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord ✝️shall be saved. 🙂
So actually the real ones like Alister Crowley and so new there will be a generation to come that may like and want to suck off the authors of all these books as thay do like scavengers. Want is this?
Alastair Crowley was truly evil so was Anton the thing people can justify all they want but I study for many years in my property diligence the truth is the truth
No. Your statement is like saying does fire come from watermelons. Also, Latin for to know is "Scio" (Shee/oh), transformed into an English interpretation of to "Skry". Please stop making these videos that mislead.
Just a thought, if u wanted to have more conclusion about Crowley and Gardner. Crowley would probably go to any orgy or any party with loose morel standings... Especially once you men hit that gross old man stage and we all do. unless you bands of bills in those trousers, pretty positive Crowley was a not wealthy man. I imagine about n his Early 60s. if Gardner was into same additions. Depending on what age they crossed. my opinion would be w appetites like Crowley's, "Make witherd leaves on twisted old sticks" . Last few years left on this hazel clouded momo gamma rock c left he had one pretty much give any occult or sacred knowledge or the "ki's" to any who would give a old drunk a listen, drink , sniff , snuff a bone or a toke. I Wonder about any old storage he had about the towns.
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hello lovely puca:) can you make a video about the uses of psychedelics and entheogens like henbane, ayahuasca, mushrooms etc in magic, paganism, shamanism etc?
Hi Angela,
I've literally only just discovered your site and you work . . . Thank You.
I grew up Goth in the Eighties and Nineties and yes there were people who discretely practised Croweleyism ( if there's such a thing) and Thelema.
I was part of Thelema's antithesis called the Christ Consciousness Gnosis.
The modern day Father being Samael Aun Weor.
Samael Aun Weor (SAW) for short is the 'father' of the modern Gnostic Movement BUT steers clear of the Freemasons, any form of the Rosicrucian Movement and Blavatsky's Theosophy.
To make matters worse there were 3 Gnostic Masters.
They are or were
I. Master Samael
ii, Master Rabolu
iii. Master Belsebub
I was taught by the latter, Master Belsebuub.
He used his eartly name, Mark Pritchard when he taught me.
WARNING - Unfortunately the Samael Aun Weor followers are many and varied.
They do not acknowledge Master Rabolu which isn't much of a problem as only one of his texts remains. It's called The Rebel Eagle.
Master Rabolu- basically gets rid off the waffle of Samael Aun Weor and strips it down to the basics. A magnificent book called The Rebel Eagle.
The problem. . . Master Belsebuub. He is, or WAS supposed to be quote,
' a Nine Year Old female '
First PROBLEM - the fanatical adherents of SAW hang on to his every word as if it were gospel truth. Samael Aun Weor through his own admission, and as late as 1978 said that much of his work possess errors. His great Spiritual works, absolutely choc full of errors. E,g. Jesus in the Last Supper drank from a Cup made out of Sheer Jade carved out by the finest Buddhist stone cutters.
In others it was Silver; In others it was the purest finest Gold in precious Stones like Emeralds etc AND finally straight out of Raiders of the Last Crusade
I.e. the grail fit for a Carpenter made out of Wood etc.
Other examples- Krishnamurti WAS a Master. Jedda himself said he wasn't a Master;
Chakra Points - if you focus on the 7 Chakra Centre's, then make them vibrate clockwise you will receive extraordinary powers, completely forgetting about the Kundalini Serpentine energies
Samael Aun Weor- wrote a book called The Revolution of Belsebuub. In it Belsebuub was born in, at that time, a 9 year old girl in France.
A huge and gross error. Samael fanatics adhere to this gross error.
Read the book. It's very poorly written and is all over the place.
Mark Pritchard was born in Wales, He discovered gnosis in the mid-Seventiesand ran schools of Gnosis by the mid Nineties. Mark taught me from very late 1995 to early 1998.
The importance of Mark Pritchard (Master Belsebuub) isn't his history, the accusations against him including a well oiled slanderous campaign in the USA which he won in a US Court of Law.
Mark Pritchard's greatest prize literally was his explanation of the Nag Hammadi essays and scripts. Mark's analysis of the letters between James and Peter, for example, were amazing. Mark utilised simple Spiritual language.
This is the real loss here. Mark's exegesis were very good verging on brilliant .👏 👌
Unfortunately the genuine legal custodians of The Nag Hammadi Library were approached by the Samael Aun Weor group, now calling themselves Glorian Publishing. The custodians of The Nag Hammadi Library ceased to have anything to do with the flowers of Samael Aun Weor.
The reason I have taken the time to write such long Comments is that I niticed that you mentioned the intricacies of the Rosicrucian Movement in Mexico and a new Awakening Gnostic Movement in Mexico and Colombia I the very late 1950's.
I have no problem with Samael Aun Weor, his genuine depth of works and his exegesis of his 5 books. His greatest being a book called HDK OR
" Yes there is a Hell, Yes there is a Devil and Yes there is Karma "
Another great vid. The best part is always the Star-splash transition in the intro. Dr. Angela is a Techno-Mage: Confirmed! Cheers.
hahaha
whether people want to acknowledge it or not, the shadow of crowley overhangs every system that has followed.
😏
He's The Prophet of the New Aeon and people cannot escape this, no matter how much they libel him and also create their own traditions
He was definitely influential
The Alpha et Omega, BOTA, Servants of the Light, Society of the Inner Light, etc... have roots that predate the OTO and don't include Crowley's work.
Thanks for shedding light (cakes) on this subject. I know several practicing Wiccans that firmly believe that Wicca came to what it is today whole from the European Witchcraft tradition without alternative influences.
You're welcome
Angela's caked up
Okay I am glad I waited and held my tongue on this subject until I got to see your video. As a Wiccan of a more traditional pedigree I have some very definite opinions about this. My view is largely based on conversations I have had with elders and from the book Doreen Valiente Witch by P. Heselton. Doreen relates that she had a manuscript of the Golden Dawn grade rituals prior to joining Gardner's Coven. She also seems to have been very familiar with Crowley's writings. At one point she confronted Gerald about the fact that a lot of the material in the book of shadows was drawn from the Golden Dawn / Crowley. This would presumably be an earlier version of Book of Shadows than we have now. Gardner according to Doreen admitted to her that many of the Witch rituals were sparse and there wasn't enough to make a full tradition out of. So according to Doreen's account he used the Golden Dawn material and Crowley material to flesh a lot of it out. He then basically called on Doreen to do some significant rewrites to the rituals and other portions of the BOS.
My opinion is basically on the minimalistic spectrum. I think without Leland, Murray, the Golden Dawn and whatever folk magic Gardner came into contact with Wicca would be very different. I think without Crowley Wicca would be largely similar to what it is but I do think Wicca was definitely influenced by Crowley. I still say the single biggest influence to Gardner was his folk magic contacts and the excitement he had for the idea of a Witch Cult.
I am definitely a non expert in this subject and I am coming at it from a practitioners perspective so I am likely highly biased. I still think that Gerald's story is largely in the realm of truthful yet exaggerated. My beliefs in reincarnation lead me to think that Gerald may have been initiated into a Coven of Witches who were Witches in a previous life and reincarnated with a mission to revive the craft. This is just my personal view but I have heard others express it as well. Also if you research this topic there are some very strange confluences that are hard to explain where just really unlikely circumstances appear to align at just the right time. So it would appear whatever the case the Gods had very definite plans that seemed to work out the right way.
Thanks for sharing
Effectively I'd say that the Golden Dawn rather than individual ex members probably had a major influence on most western magic.Wicca tends to be more nature based than the GD but the influence is still there to various degrees.I wonder if Gardener encountered the ghost of Elvis in Memphis? Obviously unrestricted by space/time as Elvis only merged with the Force in 1977 the year Star Wars came out!
Oh shit no way, Elvis merged with the force in 1977?
This has always been an interesting topic for me, but I've never really found any sources I could consider trustworthy given the web of complex motivating factors involved in the telling of this particular tale. I appreciate how you broke down those motivating factors and effectively represented the differing accounts. That really seems to be the approach that is needed for the kind of work your field is currently engaged in.
I think I remember Doreen Valiente writing about the influence of Crowley being very palpable in the material she inherited as Gardner's high priestess that she then mostly edited out when she rewrote a huge portion of the book of shadows. I can't remember which of her books she mentions this in though. It may also be part of an interview she did with the Farrars in The Witches' Bible. I know I read it somewhere...
Thanks for sharing
I read her take on that as well. She thought Gardner''s BoS "stank of Crowley." I also can't remember where I read that.
I think she said that Gerald loved Crowley's poetry, but, didn't care much for the man.
He lived in the new forest@@melissagerber7231: *_I KNOW_*
Much of Crowley's work still survives in modern Gardnerian Wicca, but Gardner didn't get anywhere near all of the teachings or training of the WMT.
It is worth pointing that Gardner and W.B. Crow were at the time of their cooperation with Crowley members of the same milieu of occultists with eclesiastical leanings, which was centered about Hugh George de Willmott Newman (Mar Gregorius) and his Catholicate of the West. W.B. Crow was de Willmott Newman's consecrator, and the later has in turn given a conditional consecration to Frederick Dorian Herbert, who at one time has ordained Gardner as a priest in his church.
Thanks for sharing
Brilliant video Dr Puca! I like Ronald Hutton, he's cool.
He's great
There she is!!😍 I like that shirt Angela! Have a great day😁🥂🌹
By studying under Crowley, Gardner had a solid structure of occult philosophy. I believe he mixed it with ancient Pagan rites and practices and in time his hybrid contribution was hybridized and adjusted by his successors . It's what happens when you write things down.
Oral tradition would also evolve, perhaps not dissimilarly, correct?
Angela your English is getting incredibly better. Wow! Im very impressed and so glad to have found your channel. Amazing research done as always.
Thank you so much!
I feel as if Crowleys students of note (the ones that history has remembered at least, and ones that founded their own traditions) all either made complimentary philosophies and religions or expounded on his traditions. Being a student of wicca in my youth and of a few of Crowley's students (i.e. a.o. spare, Kenneth grant, Israel regardie, Jack Parsons, Alan Moore, etc.) I can see the need for the various cults to combine and continue together for their own goods as they all seem to be parts of the same philosophy.
Not saying that would be a bad thing, I am personally more in favor of syncretism in my own beliefs and practices as well, but what would that look like to you? Again not shooting the idea down I just wonder what something like that would look like without it branching off and becoming its own thing like many other traditions/thoughts as you have noted above. Can organization happen without some form of dogma? The idea was that in Ancient Egyptian and Hellenistic times there was temple worship and private rituals that may be complementary but different so I know it's not impossible. What do you think would be a good central point or idea?
@@HUNarutofan19 elcipse, wicca as cult of moon and thelema as cult of sun, the priestess of this religion would be consecrated unto the moon, the priest similarly to the sun. In the chaos of spare is their union realized. In chaos are the patterns of the various systems laid bare. while the names of the specific deities change from pantheon to pantheon their atributes, those things they rule, lay under them. I agree, in a personal syncretism is the best methods, however, i only propose the union of these streams as such as they (in my mind at least) lack what the others provide and complete the system. Thelema is too male and solar, to the phallic extreme. Wicca similarly disposed but of the lunar. Chaos magic is like an explosion in a void, great noise and power but unguided(at least in modern practicioners that start there and stay there in my opinion) Parsons, achad, and others that expound on thelema are needed to counter the severe bias of Crowley and complete the system. These going forward could be the foundation of an understanding that could be used to rebuild the pagan cultus, the names of the old gods would not be forgotten but renewed, a new understanding of the world and it's forces. I see the way forward through horrifying and great synthesis, the great family tree of the gods to be filled and in the lower branches we will find YHWH under his parents of EL and ASHERA.
I agree , that's what I see as well , parts of the same philosophy.
About 10 Years ago people were bashing wicca on line and I said then , " It's not right to talk about wicca like it's a weaker version of witchcraft , or ceremonial magick". I told them we have more in common than you think. I remember saying "we are all brothers and sisters in the craft." And now Angela you have provided an actual link between , ceremonial and wicca .
Did we see the same video?
Because I certainly didn't hear anything more than yes, the two men had met, but not that there's any way to know how much influence Crowley actually had on the creation of Wicca.
Btw... Wicca is very much a religion. "Traditional witchcraft" is not.
Witchcraft has been around far longer than any religion anyone can name, and in many different cultures. And it also exists right along side, and is often entangled with, whatever religion is prominent in a particular culture.
Irish, German, English, or American Indian, they all have their witches and magic-users... as well as very different religious practices, in most cases.
@@guarddog318 She explained it all perfectly in the video about the influence of Thelema on wicca , and how Crowley's writings we're used by Gerald to teach . Watch Angela's lecture again and also see the comments.
@@guarddog318 True, although Witchcraft tends to be based in shamanistic/animistic beliefs. While Ceremonialism stems from Semitic views on cosmogony of the world and presents working in hierarchical manner.
Individual Systems of Magic tend to mix methodology, beliefs and technical explanation from both groups.
So Witchcraft and Ceremonialism are not traditions, nor systems. It's a group of traditions and systems that share similarities in methods, beliefs and philosophy.
Interestingly if you have American Voodoo and Brazilian Santeria you may want to think if them as part of the same tradition, but reality is that they are separate traditions with common roots. Often within religious tradition there will be multiple magical systems practiced for different purposes simultaneously.
I don't think it matters too much how involved Crowley was, because the final product is most important. I choose not to idolize or speak too much of Crowley because I don't like who he was as a person
Awesome 😎 thanks 🙏
Awesome video I love the information and keep making good videos.
Very interesting and clear overview of that difficult issue. I enjoy your excellent work very much.
Thanks
As always, a great lecture, thank you Angela.
Thanks
I've literally just found your channel. Well, I wouldn't say that I found it all by myself. I was watching something about Demonology and the bloke recommended you and your channel. So here I am. Haaaa!!! I only been here just over an hour now and I've been well looked after, with the amount of occult knowledge and understanding of the unseen forces at play. I have subscribed to your channel now too, so thanks again for your dedicated research, your time and effort. Everything about this channel is absolutely EXCELLENT!!!
One Love....
Blessings....
I'm gonna recommend your channel to the people in my life who are interested in the esoteric knowledge and the occult. Fascinating, Angela. X
Thanks, Marc
Grazie, dottoressa... It's good to know the history. I don't know which end of the spectrum the truth lies in, but at minimum, Crowley was a spark... for which I am thankful.
I'm not sure if agree or disagree but sombody once told me that gardner wicca is basically cottage-core OTO.
They were and are a follower of wicca.
Blessings, Dr. I enjoyed your video, as always.
Thanks
"By a DAMN WOMAN!" 🤣
hahaha it made me laugh too
@@drangelapuca Misogyny within occult traditions and not just within church-ianity... whodathunkit??
@@drangelapuca I believe it was Philip Heselton who wrote about how ludicrous such a reason put into the mouth of Crowley sounds, since many of Crowley's rituals are notorious for an almost masochistic worship of deified priestesses and sexualised goddesses.
Yes Aleister Crowley and Gerald Gardner where into the Craft. Although Gerald had re defined the use of Magic in ways that people could explore the ways
of contacting the Divine Gods and Goddesses and working with their powers along side you through their guidance and teaching called WICCA. Although
WICCA progressed to different types. I myself work with many Gods and Goddesses in the spiritual and know of around 200 or so. But lately working with
a few. Learning to call them to circle and getting to know them makes them have more confidence in you as a practitioner. If you are dedicated they know.
I myself would teach classes, but I have no where in my area to do so. Good luck on your journeys. Blessed Be sweetie. I have been busy lately with all going
on, but my Angels, Guides, Dragons, Fae, I work with can always assist you. Protection for you always. Basically Aleister Crowley was darker in practice in what
he did. I also work with Celtic for power as well.
Love, Archangel Michael
fascinating.
Thanks
great video !
thanks
Great video!!!!!!
Thanks
Gardner pulled content from many different sources, including OTO and Thelema, but without Crowley's influence he may not have had the confidence to create his own movement as Crowley had done with Thelema some 4 decades earlier.
Lol 6:30 I could see Crowley saying that even if he meant it as a joke. Either way that was hilarious X'D awesome video and I hope you keep up the great work. I love the occult and getting to get as much info as I can so channels like yours help me on my exploration.
🖤🖤🖤🖤 I love that you exist!
I'm grateful you do!
Darn, I just so wish I could remember the name of that little book I read regarding a brief history of modern occultism that told the story of Gerald Gardner's commissioning of Crowley to write the primary rites of Wicca. It's been bugging the heck out of me since your first video to do with the relationship between the two men and their respective systems. Why does the surname "Green" or "Greene" come to mind so strongly? I've searched the internet up and down, back to front and through and through and nothing. Nothing at all. It's as if I dreamed the whole thing. But I DID read it! It was a relatively little book of maybe 200 pages in length. It told of Jack Parson's relationship with L Ron Hubbard and Hubbard's running away from Parsons and a project the two had entered into together with Parson's share of the invested capital as well as his lover. It eloquently and briefly ran through loads of little anecdotes and stories regarding the foundation of occultism as it is practiced today. And yet, poof!
Perhaps it was a bit of strange magic in itself. An enjoyable little romp through modern Western occultism's history that was enchanted to vanish entirely after being read.
Will I ever know? Gods know I've asked after this little volume before, yet nothing. Well, one person did say that he/she seemed to remember reading the same book, but there was no conclusive author or title to be shared between the two of us.
As the yellow, furry, little expert Taoist once said time and time again, "Oh, bother."
im a filipino from the philippines. do you have a video about different wicca & how do they different from each other?😉😍
I don't have an answer to your question, but the question itself certainly sounds like it could form a foundation for a very interesting book!
My grandfather was Filipino. I'm a Feri Tradition initiate and I'm curious about Filipino indigenous religion and Witchcraft. Do you have any information?
To answer your question, read Rosemary Guiley's Encyclopedia of Witchcraft. It explodes many different Traditions, including my own, Feri.
I've wondered if the New Forest Coven or other connected covens were in some way influenced by Crowley prior to Gardner's return to England in '38.
Even though Ray Buckland poo poos the connection in his books, I once met him back in the 1990s (1997 I think?) at a talk he was giving in Michigan. One on one he totally admit this and told me about this charter Crowley had given Gardner making him the head of the O.T.O on the Isle of Mann. He said he always had this charter, signed by Crowley, hanging up for everyone to see. It was just sad that certain forces were compelling him to say the exact opposite in his books. I'll leave it to you all to decide what those forces were....
Thanks for sharing
This covered the subject so well!
Thank you, Georgina! I find your content very informative.
@@drangelapuca Thanks!
I keep finding _Libre Al_ quotes in traditional Gardnerian rituals.
I think a view of modern "Gardnerian" Wicca is impossible without an appreciation of just how much Valiente overhauled it and stripped the Crowley stuff out. Her description of Crowley in "Witchcraft for Tomorrow" (2012, Hale Books, p17) has me howling every time I read it.
Great stuff! I’d love more of the “etymology” of modern practices. Is that the correct word for that? Anyway. Love your videos!!!
I find it quite funny that people can't get to the truth of something that happened a mere 70+ years ago, yet still want to claim that they know the truth about events that happened more than 2,000 years back.
I've studied religion and the history of most current religions for most of my life, and the best I can come up with is that what we see now bears very little resemblance to what was originally created, or claimed to be "the truth", in any of the religions recognised today.
I tend to think that the fact so few people fully understand that Wicca is a modern, FABRICATED religion is ample evidence that Christianity itself is also nothing more than the word(s) of those that had a need and reason for bringing it into being.
...that, and the fact there are so many versions/variations of it.
I suppose it all goes to show that even when people write things down, there's no guarantee that what they're writing is either accurate or truthful. Especially not if there's some sort of financial or personal gain to be had.
I sometimes wonder, what isn't made up & fabricated?
In my opinion, ( which means nothing 🤔) , we could also say that crowley was heavily influenced by the Order Of the Golden Dawn and thus gardners Wicca wouldn't exist without them.
Or them " the GD " wouldn't exist without the influences of the Free masons wescott and the other two who's names escape me.
The OGD took from eliphus levi , john dee, and so many others.
All that maters is....does it work ? Does it make us better?
For me. The jury is still out on the Wiccan case. I'll decide when it's mold sets 😉
THAT SHIRT
Crowley was an intelligent charismatic man, his work influenced many during his lifetime. He is also widely misunderstood as being purely evil and part of that was his own doing. The Crowley magic dust is still felt to this day through various offshoot religions and is infused into popular culture. I can't say for certain, but Crowley seems to be the foundation of Wicca. There's an OTO chapter (L.A. suburb) in my area, whether they have anything to do with Crowley's original organization I don't know. It's just a tiny storefront.
Bruh evils greatest trick is they tell you they are not evil. Freemasons traffic children and in pretty sure this symbol is right behind the White House which is connected to the temple of set and comet pizza 👁🎭 also his child was Barbra bush. I don’t support these sick bloodlines and their process of the 5 P’s prison system, philosophy, paganism, polytheism, and polygamy. These are used to lower the consciousness and vibration of aboriginal people and all of the other races too. Truth over tricks
Wicca is first inspired from the ancient pagan culture and view on witchcraft, magick and the divine. Thelema is a philosofic movement, as I see it, yet, The Charge of the Goddess, by Gardner, includes both details from both Crowley and Leeland (Stregheria, influenced by Stregoneria)
I think it's inaccurate to say Wicca "came from Thelema". In my mind Gardener tried haphazardly to make sense of a pan-European religion that didn't really exist in the way he might have imagined it using the writings of his contemporaries and feminist scholars who were studying the witch trials to make sense of them. It bothers me when people claim that Wicca is "the oldest religion", because most of the traditions and sources that were drawn upon for Gardener to explain Wicca (Aradia, Egyptian-Greco-Roman religion interpreted by Hermetic minds years later, Witch cult hypothesis) were all relatively new ideas at his time and the vast majority of them were widely debunked. That's not to say his history as a Thelemite didn't influence Wicca; I strongly suspect his focus on the Goddess was a product of Crowley's own obsession with the Divine Feminine (in the form of Babalon, and indeed if you read Crowley's writings Babalon has a consort and daughter in a similar vein that Aradia has Lucifer as Diana's consort and Aradia is their daughter. Which means Gardener already had a predisposition to believe this kind of narrative as inherently true). Not to mention it seems similar to both Tantric and Alchemical writings, which Crowley also studied extensively (Crowley practiced both Buddhist and Hindu yoga and as an initiate of the Golden Dawn he was no doubt at least familiar with alchemy).
So while I think Wicca is a modern attempt that was somewhat biased at the start to recreate supposed witch cults based on a debunked theory, I think the core theology is ancient enough that Wiccans actively look for signs of Wicca in traditions that had no concept of it and it makes the religion look older than it really is. Also it should be pointed out that Wicca developed over time and given the nature of the groups both men were involved in, it's possible that the Occult Revival in Britain (and this is what I strongly believe after doing both personal and college-related research) developed a bit of a "small world" syndrome where most of the members of the movement were involved in the same few groups, had similar backgrounds and shared ideas amongst themselves. After all, Gardener was a former Rosicrucian and Crowley a Golden Dawn initiate, both of which were Kabbalistic and Alchemical occult groups and had a few members in common.
I'm obsessed with your forearm tattoos.
Thanks
Interesting to see how a body of knowledge can give birth to different forms of knowledge that might seem unrelated even if it’s essence is the same 🤔🤔
More Crowley! More fancy editing!
😊
Is there any evidence of contacts between Gardner and Frithjof Schuon?
It was so long ago that I read it that I can neither remember the title of the book nor the author's name, although the surname "Green" seems to be shrouded in the midst of a cloud of possible complete forgetfulness and I do remember it being a rather small little book, easy to read on the subject of a brief history of modern magickal traditions. I clearly remember it divulging information regarding poor Victor Neuberg's trip into the desert with Crowley that germinated "Liber 418", certain of Crowley's opinions on the pomposity of A.E. Waite, and then relevant to this video, the author claimed Gardner had commissioned Crowley to write the rituals of Wicca later published by Gardner. The book's scope wasn't limited to these two, but did emphasize the importance of Crowley's contributions to modern occultism and comparative religion. I think it began with Frazer's "Golden Bough".
I've seen at least one documentary that also pointed to a very broke and chemically troubled Crowley's welcoming of a commission to write Wicca's rituals and have read the same in at least one of three biographies of Crowley, though again, I'm a lousy source because I read and saw all this stuff over such a short period about two decades ago and took no notes.
But who knows? Maybe that foggy "Green" might lead to something. Sorry to have been so useless in so many words.
And hey, thanks again for the video! It's created a little project for me and you, as always, were delightful.
Vaguely remember coming across a similar reference years ago. Now whether its hearsay and anecdotal or able to be validated is another matter. i personally think it's likely to be true given the similarities of many of the early rituals of Gardnerian Wicca and Crowley's interpretations of the Golden Dawn and Masonic rituals. But still anecdotal. If you come across that book or author, please let us know as we would love to do some further research on it.
Hello, I am brand new to your channel but I came here from religion for breakfast. Since you are a scholar in the field, I have a question that I’m hoping you can answer or point me to the direction of an answer you’ve already made in a video or an online blog post. It is my understanding of Crowley That the research we have indicates how much he absolutely made up himself. Things in his books or that he said that he claimed were ancient secrets are, as far as I know, believed by scholars to be absolute nonsense. Do you have alternative information to that? I would be very curious to investigate it.
Which book and which secrets specifically are you making reference to? Crowley was a prolific writer with huge amounts of material.
There's nothing in the modern Western esoteric traditions that is outside of Crowley's influence, if not in confluence, then by contrast.
You phrased it well. The degree to which Crowley is connected to Wicca is significant regardless.
If you really want to have a fun topic, start looking into the spiritual beliefs of Ronald Reagan. It's a little tricky, because from the day he took office until today, you have tons of Christian authors writing books and articles about how Reagan was a strong Born Again Christian, but Reagan never attended a Christian church outside of a funeral or a wedding, and in his personal life, we have numerous accounts that he was heavily into the spiritualist movement, believing in communing with the spirits of the dead and astrology, and was almost certainly involved in occult groups before he went into politics. Something his political followers spend a lot of ink on paper trying to deny. Personally, I don't like Reagan, but I always found it interesting that a guy who used the Satanic Panic for political benefit and at the cost of real human suffering for non-Christians, was precisely the kind of guy his followers were scared of.
I tend to agree with the maximalist view after this video as far as encouragement go, but I do think Gardner developed Wicca completely independently. One question - who would you say was more successful in the end - Thelema or Wicca?
If Gardner is accepted as initiated into S.S. by AC then Gardner is authorised to create new Lodges & modes of teaching.
Quote from AC’s “Essay on the Structure & System of the Great White Brotherhood” P698
“Members of the order (A.A.) are entitled to found Orders dependent on them-selves on the lines of the R.C. And G.D. Orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony with the A.A. as regards the essential principles.”
Dr. Puca...Hmmmm 🤔 Then what does "Aude Sapere" mean? Curious.
Eclectic Paganism with a feminist bend was bound to emerge this way or that in the English-speaking West. In 1938 in America Gleb Botkin established the Church of Aphrodite and Robert Graves published The White Goddess in 1948. American feminist witches of late 1960-s - 1970-s found Thelemic legacy in Wicca absolutely redundant, and mostly dispensed with it, though diligently adopting the historical mythology behind the notions of witch-cult and fertility religion. Thelema was itself (as Hutton shows) largely in line with modern cultural development which tended towards post-Christian "paganish" religiosity and magic, the same development that brought about Wicca. Traditional witchcrafts would emerge without Wicca, perhaps, themselves borrowing from the more grim aspects of Thelemic ritual (maybe, they did emerge before Wicca).
Have you done anything about the relationship between Crowley and rocket scientist Jack Parsons. It seems to have been covered pretty well in the book “Sex and Rockets” but maybe there are other sources for the story. Parsons is a very late example of a scientist who was also very interested in the occult, and actually practiced the ceremonies. I seem to remember that the book portrays Crowley in a bad light. I think Crowley did a lot of “what thou wilt” with Parsons’ wife 😅
Oh no, I was very confused about the details of what I wrote about above. Parsons indeed became a member of OTO and Crowley took a liking to him. It was L, Ron Hubbard who became friends with Parsons and active in OTO, actually assisting Parsons to perform black magic rituals. It was Hubbard who ran off with Parsons wife, and helped steal Parson’s life savings. Hubbard of course later became involved in a different kind of magic, the magic of cult and personality.
Very interesting and informative: I learned so much and can see how this works its way through in practice. Your conclusion regarding the relative importance or significance of Crowley's input into the published ritual work used by wiccans seems to be borne out. (Bearing in mind, of course, that most practising Gardnerians would use oathbound material. ) Personally, I find Gardner's materials possibly more eclectic and catholic (in the sense of broad-based) than Crowley. There are liberal sprinklings of masonic ritual too. Which I can also attest. Splendid scholarship applied to Gardner's BTW.
You perform a real and invaluable service. Thank you.
You're very kind
Im gonna need to ask for much longer content than this.. on such important topics u cant do 10 minute stuff. This needs an hour at least. And u need to show some of the research and sources.
💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
Hi dr
There is also a theory that Aleister Crowley inherited his own ideas from Witchcraft (reversing the transmission!)
Refer to The Pickingill Papers
that's interesting to know. thanks for sharing!
I believe that true majick, cannot be squandered.
Anyone... can start a religion. Wicca is merely a fasad.
We are all born through Jesus Christ, the rest is up to us !!!
They sure collaborated in magick.
Nice outfit
I will say this as a long time Wiccan . Personal I would never disrespect Crowley influence on Magick overall. He suffered from drug addiction which is sad. All he did with magick is important. Saying that Gardner is the Founder of Wicca 🌛🌝🌜
best goth shirt ever!!!!
So you don't subscribe to the George Pickingill thesis?
To feed the algorithm, ..
Crowley, " Do as you wilt, no more and no less."
The old question to put forth, .. what can you Will yourself to do ?
First part is to develop the Will to educate yourself on as many matters as your brain can handle. Just remember you have years to learn things so do not rush and over cram your life.
This is my view after 44 years of life. ... I over cram as a teenager and it did not work out to well for me, so pace yourself. I had a collapse and took four years to rebuild myself.
☀️
Hi Angela,no I don't think Crowley is responsible for it at all.something tells me Wicca is as old as the hills😉
I have a habit of butting in to these conversations. I don`t know why. I was raised in the RC tradition and don`t follow any of this but I did spend an afternoon with Gerald Gardner long ago. He struck me a a genuine lovely chap and whilst I cannot recall everything he said the thrust of his reasoning was that he was carrying on an ancient English tradition. It has been suggested by Hutton that he was misdirected in this assumption by Margaret Murray and the extent of that tradition was over emphasised.
@@absonus I'm decended from druids
@@absonus you can find stories of the McLeod clan druids if you look hard enough
I am totally a maximalist
You should come and visit me in Australia 😉
Yes it does kids
IT seems that Gardner was a bit of an opportunist.
he was gathering material for his religious movement
Lol Wicca is as old as I am 😅
Charles Godfrey Leland is the godfather of witchcraft
A DAMN WOMAN... so, If witches would work on their emotional intelligence they could become more accepted and influental?
The goddess Angela must be worshipped for providing knowledge to the initiates.
I'm no expert, but I do know quite a few Wiccans. They clam its the earliest of religions. Way before either man was born. I understand the influence both contribute, but Wiccans would absolutely be around no matter what. I also want to say the internet is going to be a be influence as well. I have a friend who post on TH-cam her rituals, as well as yourself with videos like this. But Wiccan will most likely be around in one for or another for thousands of years to come.
The oldest religion that we know anything about can be demarcated into several ways.
Oldest Archaelogical religion.
Belief in mother earth goddess, goddess of fertility. Based on figurines up to 200,000 years in age.
Shamanistic tribal beliefs. Middle East but spread into Europe.
Sort of extant, based on cave drawing in australia dating to about 40,000 years that have extant meanings in austroaboriginals.
Ancestral worship dating to about 10,000 years ago in Jericho, given global spread of these. tendencies in other religions, older. Ancestral worship is still extensively practiced in asuan religions.
Shrine based religious practices seen in Catal Hoyuk and the appearance of the first ox-horned deities to about 9500. Gods of animal husbandry (10kya) appear to follow the gods of crop fertikity (12kya). Worship to gods of fertility are still practiced broadly.
The white temple in Uruk (Kubulla) from 6ka possibly to the god Anu represents the longest continual evolving religion. Historically validated to about 5kya Anu is the same god as ilu in Akkad and El Elyon of the bible, the books of Judges, Samuel, Solomon, song of psalms extensively describing the canaanite form of the religion that grew in 2300 to 2500 bc and continued to evolve in Israel during the late bronze age collapse. In canaan the patheon had a symbolic 70 gods, many of them reoresenting a polity, like Salem (of Jerusalem) the god of Dawn. Apotheosis might reoresent some of the divine entities (e.g. Kub'uba source of Kh'eba, h'eba, possibly hera and other female divines). The Abrahamic religions can trace their oldest traditions backwards. Examples is the song of Deborah, it gives reference to Yahu, identified in the Ebla cunieform tablets as Ea, in other places as El. Shamgar of Anath, Beth Anath is a temple site in Israel to the canaanite god Anat. Beth Shemesh in the book of Samuel is a temple site to the Babylonian/canaanite god Utu/Shamash, the sun god and brother to the goddess Ishtar (Biblical, Astarte, Sumerian Inanna, 2nd high god of Uruk and took the White temple under sargon)
The proto indoeuropean sky god is probably linked to earlier Anu worship and spread 4000 years ago under the spread of indoeuropean language. The likely path of spread is through war and traders in Eastern Anatolia, protoindoeuropen kurgan culture into the pontic steppe. The gods of the pantheon, in part become the SE European pagan gods of old. The pagan gods also spread out of Hattic, Hittite, Phonecian and Minoan Culture into greece. Rhea, Cybil, Uranuos (Anu), Artemis, Apollo, Aphrodite, Adonis all appear to have origins in the East versus the Indoeuropean gods.
Derived from the Indoeuropean gods also around 4kya are the vedic traditions that evolved in SW asia as Zoroastrianism and India as several religions.
More or less all gods are based in pagan gods, this includes the biblical divinities. While the word pagan refers to the gods of folk, one has to imagune that the Mesopotamian/Canaanite gods reigned supreme until the late bronze when egypt assume dominion of all the lands south of Ebla. The fringe confederation of tribes were the Israelites late in the period, still loyal to El Elyon. From the south scattered tribes loyal to yahu (later Yahweh) a possible vestige of a mystic Enki/Ea cult syncretized with an Afro/Arabian volcanoe god (possibly around medina) expanded northward into the region South and East of Jerusalem. In the iron age Yahweh expanded in power as El Elyon based culture fell to the assyrian control (High god Asshur). The ideal of Yahudah is based on a mythical tribe in Israel and seperates from 'gentiles' (not adherant to mosaic laws). Essentially its an 'us' versus 'them' city state distinction in the second temple period. It is important to note that when Jerusalem collapsed, the surruonding polities continued to function during the late iron age.
@@Darisiabgal7573 Wow, your knowledge surpass anything I know. I appreciate the long explanation. It's very interesting.
Mineral training groud
No Crowley, no Wicca.
If you’re not a born again Christian then you belong to the devil.🤷🏼♂️
SALVATION 👇🏻
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord ✝️shall be saved.
🙂
No
So actually the real ones like Alister Crowley and so new there will be a generation to come that may like and want to suck off the authors of all these books as thay do like scavengers. Want is this?
Alastair Crowley was truly evil so was Anton the thing people can justify all they want but I study for many years in my property diligence the truth is the truth
No. Your statement is like saying does fire come from watermelons. Also, Latin for to know is "Scio" (Shee/oh), transformed into an English interpretation of to "Skry". Please stop making these videos that mislead.
Just a thought, if u wanted to have more conclusion about Crowley and Gardner. Crowley would probably go to any orgy or any party with loose morel standings... Especially once you men hit that gross old man stage and we all do. unless you bands of bills in those trousers, pretty positive Crowley was a not wealthy man. I imagine about n his Early 60s. if Gardner was into same additions. Depending on what age they crossed. my opinion would be w appetites like Crowley's, "Make witherd leaves on twisted old sticks" . Last few years left on this hazel clouded momo gamma rock c left he had one pretty much give any occult or sacred knowledge or the "ki's" to any who would give a old drunk a listen, drink , sniff , snuff a bone or a toke. I Wonder about any old storage he had about the towns.
Thanks for sharing
One fraud initiating another. How quaint.
Save your soul. Renounce evil!
Very imformative video and GREAT tshirt, Dr. Puca!Keep up the good work!
Thanks 😊
I love that shirt 🤘🏻