I used to attend the Way International fellowships, starting when I was 17 and up until I was 32, in various cities and States. I even did a 10 month WOW ambassador training and relocation assignment. One of my first red flags, was the constant exaltation of leadership in general, and the ever excessive name-dropping of the founder. I decided to leave because I was struggling with major sin, and also was disillusioned from many whose religion seemed to minimize a true reverential awe and knowledge of God and Jesus Christ .....yet I was living in darkness, how much did I know back then? It has been quite a humbling journey....
There is very little discussion on sin at TWI. It’s considered a solved issue. So there’s not much in the way of practical teaching or help in that category. In retrospect, part of the issue is the OSAS perspective, such that the worst sin can result in is lost future rewards.
Unless @JKV84 is referring to my guest. :) I generally interview people who are NOT accustomed to such things. People who have great stories and are otherwise not famous. Kassie (as with many of the folks who have never been on a podcast or video) had a bit of nervousness, I could tell, but some thoughtful edits tightened it up (saving you listening time) and removed some of the hesitations. She did fantastic, and told the story so well.
Thank you for sharing your experience, I was a part of The Way in the early 80s. I experienced some of the same things that were shared. I chose to move on during the blow up in 85-86 since then I've been apart of many different churches and ministries and have seen many of the same issues. So much does come down to control. Every church small or large can fall into leadership becoming controlling. The Shepherding movement lead by Derek Prince and others was supposed to promote a healthy level of accountability and turned into extreme control. Just an example. I took many things from my time in the way that I hold onto to this day with thankfulness despite the many things that definitely were both bad doctrine and practice. These kinds of issues both crept into Israel’s history and the early church. A incredible quote from Joseph Seiss in his book The Apocalypse about the doctrine of the Nicolaitens. ' All subsequent evil that shows up in the church has it's root in the doctrine of the Nicolaitens '. That's quite a statement worthy of deep consideration.
Wow. You came through your experience well! Your thoughts are spot on. Thinking... I would say that my hope here is that individuals become more sensitive to the issues. It is the individuals, the community, who should be a key check in any power structure. Why be the fodder for authority when you can be the light that burns away the darkness and creates accountability. It's when individuals recognize a problem, and then raise the issue, that's when unchecked power can be derailed. But, we tend to not do that because of the cost, etc. (all things I've discussed). But we have to. There's too much at stake to let Christ's church turn into a political system akin to the Pharisees. We have work to do, and that's not it. Thank you!
Thank you for this episode! I hope those Unitarians who are so hostile towards Trinitarians will listen and understand that Trinitarianism is not normally what most churches focus on. Those who attend these Trinitarian churches see the amount of good for others and the love of God in people and naturally presume that the Trinity doctrine is true because that is what the leadership tells them, and so they understandably defend it. The genuine goodness and godliness of these people blinds them to error, but they are still genuinely loving God in spite of their confusion. Being a Trinitarian is not necessarily a deliberate promoting or conscious choice of evil. God sees the hearts and will judge accordingly. (Granted, there are awful Trinitarian churches that operate like cults, just like the Biblical Unitarian Way International did on the other side. There are ungodly Trinitarian churches too. The episode is an example of a pretty good Trinitarian church.)
Thanks. Pretty much any over generalization is problematic. The surveys in the last few years have indicated that even in trinitarian churches there are people who describe and think of Jesus in much more simple, Biblical terms. For that reason I try to stay focused on how the leaders and teachers approach it. They are held to a higher standard, and thus, I believe, their students are afforded some additional grace. I'll let God deal with that, but I believe that if a preacher was able to drive fear and loathing into their congregants hearts for "people who deny the deity of Christ" than it's that preacher who will have to explain this to Jesus one day. The confused congregant who tried their best to follow God under that type of training, I feel for them. Imagine being convinced by someone else that you needed to condemn fellow believers because of a doctrinal implication that you don't even understand. I had someone comment on the last episode who was under the impression that I would look at others as though they were pagan for not believing in Jesus like I did. I think it was projection. People just assume that "attack," "condemn," and "reject" is the default mode for people. It's sad. There is no harm in giving someone the benefit of the doubt, listening closely, understanding where they are coming from, and then explaining why you see it differently. At least that's my perception. Maybe there's a time where declaring everyone else is pagan serves some glorious purpose, but I don't see it.
I disagree. As a previous "non denominational" trinitiatian of 40 years, I do not believe I was hearing or teaching others the true Gospel. Being a trinitarian means you are preaching a different God, a different, Jesus, and a different Gospel. Just because it sounds alot like the truth, doesn't make it ok or that "God sees the hearts." When I hear people say "God knows their heart" its equivalent to saying "its ok to go against the word of God because you are a good person." This is dangerous and not something God ever said to false teachers.
@@MissusTayIor A different gospel is the Penal Substitutionary Atonement teaching. That is far more damaging to Christianity than the Trinity doctrine. Yes, the Trinity doctrine has its downside but most practicing Christians don't believe it and don't put it to any practical use. It is just confusion.
@@kevingeorge1095 it really does no good for anyone to be comparing what’s worse if both are wrong. If I said “well I lie sometimes but atleast I’m not a homosexual” would I be right in making such a comparison if both are wrong?
She must have found a Diamond in the rough with that Baptist church. That certainly hasn’t been my experience with them. For myself I don’t care for “church” as it is today. A lot of wasted resources paying salaries, mortgages, sound equipment, etc. plus I’m beginning to learn belonging to a church and having “right” doctrine isn’t what’s important. What’s important is loving your neighbor. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 Jn. 4:7) God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 Jn. 4:16) Anyone who does what is good is from God. (3 Jn. 1:11)
I get where you are coming from. "Church" that doesn't facilitate and expand those very activities (love, doing good), may well be hindering, not expanding the reach of the Messiah. It is a blessing when communities do this well. And yeah, I know what you mean about diamond in the rough. I've heard from many who likewise struggled with them. Thankfully, for Kassie, it was positive and helped her spread her wings and see what a community of believers can look like. Appreciate the thoughts!
@@MichaelTheophilus906 Yes, there is much truth to that. I guess it depends on how you define happy. If happy means, "I am able to serve Jesus, helping people, feeding hungry, etc. and that is juxtaposed to an authoritarian or highly isolated "fellowship" that gets the doctrine right... I would have to think long and hard about which is better. Honestly, I'm constantly reminded of Jesus' description of judgement day. He's not at all pleased with those who did not help the needy, nor is he pleased with people who bury there talents. Am I saying that error is perfectly fine? No. But there are some groups that have error, but also have a humble spirit and can openly discuss these things. If one can find something like that, then one may have a purpose there broader than just being in a community that brings light to the world. It could be that God wants you there to help open their eyes further. Now, if being happy means "they have great potlucks and the music is delightful" then spot on. You are correct. It's not about us, its about being Jesus' hands and feet to those around us.
Good for her if she found peace of God in another place. I am still in the way international in another country and God marvelously showed his loves and power in my life BECAUSE I came myself to focus not on men or leaders but on God's word (I know people will question about the Way international teachings being True or wrong. That's not my point as we live in a society where every church has its beliefs according to their view of the Bible). Some of those things I experienced are finding answers in prayers (not all for sure) praying for sickness and people recovered, casting out demons in the name of Jesus Christ and God was with some of us (locally). It's always hard to judge a movement or organisation since you will always find flaws and weaknesses because of men. The Way international has his "methods" that cannot please many people and teachings that can be questionable and debating. But the same can be applied to many other organisations. This to say we have to stick in God's word we learn every time we read it being part or not of an organisation. God is above all and will enlighten you once you ask Him. Philippians 3 : 15 Note: Because of, let's say, our unitarian's view of the bible I landed here as I often follow teaching on One God. 😊
Thanks for your thoughts! I think you are correct. There isn't such a thing as a perfect group, and the tendencies exist everywhere for excessive authority and pressure, etc. I'm pleased to see that you kept your heart oriented effectively and that it's been great for your faith! Great comment. Thanks!
THERE is No need for a NEW name that represents the Teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles ,We are called Christians which means followers of Christ .
@Mark Hey, man, I'm a JW myself and I do want to ask you to PLEASE take negative things said with a grain of salt and potential chance that there are ppl that 'hate' JWs and look for opportunities to go and sy ridiculus things simply to smear us. (2 Cor 11:14) That being said- there are also some of our brothers and sisters that do display a level of inmaturity and say things in ways they'd be better off not saying. (Col 4:6; Pr 12:18)
Thanks! I totally get that. I know some amazing people from various groups. I try to be careful to not indict individuals in bulk. If you do think I overstepped, I do want to know. I tried to just respond to him, as his response juxtaposed to the other was exceptionally intriguing to me. It's great to have you following along. It's good to hear from thoughtful folks. Certainly, those who smear others are everywhere. Just raising an eyebrow to the doctrine of the Trinity can trigger the smearing. "Attack" is the default for many, many people. Great to hear from you.
No. Well, to explain... The UCA is a single-issue advocacy group and a networking resource. It isn't a "church" or faith community itself. We intentionally limited our scope so that we could do something unique, help people connect who would otherwise easily have "fallen off" through the weight of isolation. This doctrinal position often causes people to isolate, and that's not good. Instead of having a "statement of faith" or other broader materials, we just help people get connected to groups and communities which do that. We are, technically, just a small team of volunteers, and it's enough to keep content on this one doctrine flowing, and to coordinate events for one God believing folks to meet others. That said, what were you looking for?
@@UCAPodcastHostthank you for your answer. I am currently meditation on salvation by faith alone (ASOS) vs discipleship.. Would just love your take on it, as we pretty much agree on everything regarding the father and the son.
@@JKV84 My take on it is based on Jesus' teachings that we are to love one another. Whatever I did to the least of them, his brethren, I did unto him. Thus, if I forgo love, if I mistreat his brothers and sisters, I can't see how Jesus would add, "But you did say a prayer when you were 12, so you're welcome in." I think the language that is used for OSAS has to be seen in light of the direct instructions of the Messiah. Much of it comes from Paul, and Peter himself recognizes some of Paul's writings are challenging. Thus, on Peter's caution, and on Jesus' explicit description of what he's looking for come judgement day, I chose to understand Paul in a way that doesn't seem to push back on Jesus. I take the language that sounds OSAS and recognize that some of it can also be generalizations which certainly do apply. Glad to answer more specific questions. To your question, the UCA is a networking tool, and not a broad teaching ministry, but as individuals, we certainly have thoughts on these and many subjects. We all participate in various ways with others, through fellowship, visiting, prayer, etc. So in this case, this is my personal answer to you question. Welcome! I look forward to future interactions!
Just wanted to add this im jist leabing behind the false teaching of. Trinity. Do u think Vhrist ss ''firstborn of all crestion': refers to Him as inheritor of all now he is glorified n triumphant at Hodd rihht hand?
Hi @hm-rm7qq, yes, that's how I primarily think of it. The firstborn is the one who inherits what was the father's. So, in this case, all creation is destined to become the Messiah's inheritance. Thanks for listening!
Everybody hates on Way International yet who else has doctrine publications as accurate as them? Tithing and leader worship are the direct problems in the ministry sure, yet it is the problem in practically every single religious organization in existence. Who else is teaching home fellowship church structure? Who else has books exhausting why God is not a trinity? Y'all sit in your group therapy podcasts talking crap about everyone and it is childish. Why not talk about the accurate things ministrys are doing, so that christians can continue to improve? What you're doing is called gossip and debate, which the Scripture condemns.
Every legitimate Church on the planet whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, believes in the trinity. Are we to believe that the gates of hell have indeed prevailed against the church? You are living in rebellion and have made yourselves your own authority, doing what is right in your own eyes. Repent of your lawlessness and come home.
Thanks for the note, and thanks for listening. I'm Mark, the host. I don't see the gates of hell as having prevailed. Every legitimate church on the planet introduces its congregations to the contents of Scripture. They introduce and instruct on the teachings of the Messiah. They teach that the Son of God went to the cross for their sins. They teach that God raised him from the dead. Now, they also teach Trinitarian language which (because it isn't presented as explicit teaching in Scripture) takes on many variations. The world of Trinitarian speculations is colorful and, at times, sordid. In every legitimate church on the planet, there are believers who don't get hung up on the Trinitarian requirements of their creeds, and instead go with what they see explicitly in Scripture. There is one God, and he's the Father. There is one Lord, and he is Jesus. The Father is Jesus' God. And he's our God. All the rest of the philosophical conjecture is just noise. Sure, they sing the songs, and nod their head in agreement, but ask them specifics. Many simply talk the way people did in the book of Acts. And that isn't Trinitarian. So, because of this amazing success at promulgating believers in the simple and explicit teaching of Scripture, I believe that the gates of hell have not prevailed and that truth has spread, despite authoritative pressure and fear. Wonderful, precious followers of Jesus and his God have persisted through the centuries. The hell gates are impotent.
@@UCAPodcastHost And Jesus also is God, it is explicitly taught in scripture and that's why it is a part of every church's creed or mission statement. Just because some church members don't care to understand it or concern themselves with it is beside the point, that after all could be said of most of scripture. Hebrews 1:8-14 Surely if all of Christ's churches are teaching a false doctrine about the very nature of Christ then God did a very poor job in communicating to His church. Not that only but it is unanimously agreed upon as being a fundamental and foundational teaching, i.e. if you don't believe it you are not actually in line with the faith and teaching of your church, a.k.a. heresy. We put our faith in Christ BECAUSE of who He is. He sits on the throne in Heaven ruling all of creation forever and ever BECAUSE of who He is. He was able to do everything He has done BECAUSE of who He is. To deny the nature of Christ is to fall away from the faith, which is why every heretic cult dethrones Christ from being God who came in the flesh. John 1:14
@@iamtheteapot7405 Great points. I don't disagree that Jesus can also be called God. He explained this to his critics in John 10:34. Your reference to Hebrews 1:8 is an example of that. That Psalm was originally written for the king of Israel, and it wasn't scandalous or confusing. The term "god" can be applied in various ways. What is clear from Psalm 45 is that the king (called "god") had a God. I have the view that any being who has a God over them is not the one God almighty. So, all those who were called gods, as Jesus described in John 10, would be easily distinguished from Yahweh because Yahweh is God over them. No one mistakes Moses for God almighty, or any of Israel's kings, or the judges, or any other case where elohim may be used on a human. We can confidently know that the term god has a different meaning when it is used on a human. Thus, when it is applied to Jesus, and we know Jesus is a human, and we know that Jesus has a God, it means, to me, that the most appropriate meaning of "Jesus is god" would be "Jesus represents God and is one through whom God is speaking and working" (the point in John 10:34). So, I'm just trying to interpret the use of the term "God" in line with other Scripture and with Jesus' own teaching. I suspect you disagree, but I would ask which of these is the reason it is wrong: A) Mark is wrong because "god" is not used on humans the way he thinks it is. B) Mark is wrong because the majority of the church sees it differently C) Mark is wrong for another reason Thanks! Great discussion.
@@UCAPodcastHost While I don't disagree with your interpretation of the use of the term elohim, there is a glaring issue with your interpretation. Let's read on in Johyn chapter 1 and see that Jesus (The Word) is the same God whom by all things were created. I imagine you will disagree with that interpretation of John 1, despite the fact that it has always been the churches interpretation of the passage. No problem because the other passage I mentioned solidifies the interpretation. Let's read on in Hebrews 1 and while yes, the first mention of the Son as God is a quote concerning King David, if we read on in the chapter we can see that a very different interpretation of God is being applied, not a representative of God being called God but rather the true God who created the heavens and the earth verses 10-12. So when we look at all of scripture we can see a recurring pattern of Jesus being attributed with the position, titles, attributes and deeds of the one true God. i.e. He can do all things that the Father does John 5:19, He has the authority and dominion that the Father does (i.e. sits on the throne, reigns forever over all things), He is called what the Father is (mighty God, father of eternity, alpha and omega, first and the last), and He does the works that the Father does (created the Heavens and the earth). Furthermore He possesses the Glory that the Father does and is worshipped as the Father is. Forgive the long response but this is something you must hear me out on. The church of Christ has been established by the Lord Himself and to depart from it is to be in complete rebellion of God's established covenant. I want the fullness of truth for you and that is not found outside the Church.
@@iamtheteapot7405 Thank you. I can see that you are sharing your thoughts sincerely and out of love. Yes, I do interpret John 1 differently. It is a poetic and tersely written section which has been read in many ways over the years. I would suggest you look more closely at the first few centuries. John 1 was not read in a trinitarian way, but in a subordinationist way, at least by many of the church fathers. Jesus was a secondary being. It's quite fascinating, honestly, and it tells a different story than that interpretation that "has always been the churches interpretation." I'm not strictly in disagreement here. I do believe the church was established, I think I may be differing with you on what that is. If I may ask, since you reference the church in every comment so far. Do you believe that the church has the authority to establish doctrine? Do you believe that when a majority of the church holds to a particular view, that view is to be deemed accurate and that disagreeing with it is rebellion?
I used to attend the Way International fellowships, starting when I was 17 and up until I was 32, in various cities and States. I even did a 10 month WOW ambassador training and relocation assignment. One of my first red flags, was the constant exaltation of leadership in general, and the ever excessive name-dropping of the founder. I decided to leave because I was struggling with major sin, and also was disillusioned from many whose religion seemed to minimize a true reverential awe and knowledge of God and Jesus Christ .....yet I was living in darkness, how much did I know back then? It has been quite a humbling journey....
There is very little discussion on sin at TWI. It’s considered a solved issue. So there’s not much in the way of practical teaching or help in that category. In retrospect, part of the issue is the OSAS perspective, such that the worst sin can result in is lost future rewards.
great to see another testimony .
A great video
Very pleasant voice you have
That's Mark Cain. You may see him in the comments on this channel. 🙂
Unless @JKV84 is referring to my guest. :) I generally interview people who are NOT accustomed to such things. People who have great stories and are otherwise not famous. Kassie (as with many of the folks who have never been on a podcast or video) had a bit of nervousness, I could tell, but some thoughtful edits tightened it up (saving you listening time) and removed some of the hesitations. She did fantastic, and told the story so well.
@UCAPodcastHost
Mark, everyone knows you have a golden radio voice. 😆 lol
Speaking of the host 😎😎
Thank you for sharing your experience, I was a part of The Way in the early 80s. I experienced some of the same things that were shared. I chose to move on during the blow up in 85-86 since then I've been apart of many different churches and ministries and have seen many of the same issues. So much does come down to control. Every church small or large can fall into leadership becoming controlling. The Shepherding movement lead by Derek Prince and others was supposed to promote a healthy level of accountability and turned into extreme control. Just an example. I took many things from my time in the way that I hold onto to this day with thankfulness despite the many things that definitely were both bad doctrine and practice. These kinds of issues both crept into Israel’s history and the early church. A incredible quote from Joseph Seiss in his book The Apocalypse about the doctrine of the Nicolaitens. ' All subsequent evil that shows up in the church has it's root in the doctrine of the Nicolaitens '. That's quite a statement worthy of deep consideration.
Wow. You came through your experience well! Your thoughts are spot on. Thinking... I would say that my hope here is that individuals become more sensitive to the issues. It is the individuals, the community, who should be a key check in any power structure. Why be the fodder for authority when you can be the light that burns away the darkness and creates accountability. It's when individuals recognize a problem, and then raise the issue, that's when unchecked power can be derailed.
But, we tend to not do that because of the cost, etc. (all things I've discussed). But we have to. There's too much at stake to let Christ's church turn into a political system akin to the Pharisees. We have work to do, and that's not it.
Thank you!
Thank you for this episode! I hope those Unitarians who are so hostile towards Trinitarians will listen and understand that Trinitarianism is not normally what most churches focus on. Those who attend these Trinitarian churches see the amount of good for others and the love of God in people and naturally presume that the Trinity doctrine is true because that is what the leadership tells them, and so they understandably defend it. The genuine goodness and godliness of these people blinds them to error, but they are still genuinely loving God in spite of their confusion. Being a Trinitarian is not necessarily a deliberate promoting or conscious choice of evil. God sees the hearts and will judge accordingly. (Granted, there are awful Trinitarian churches that operate like cults, just like the Biblical Unitarian Way International did on the other side. There are ungodly Trinitarian churches too. The episode is an example of a pretty good Trinitarian church.)
Thanks. Pretty much any over generalization is problematic. The surveys in the last few years have indicated that even in trinitarian churches there are people who describe and think of Jesus in much more simple, Biblical terms. For that reason I try to stay focused on how the leaders and teachers approach it. They are held to a higher standard, and thus, I believe, their students are afforded some additional grace. I'll let God deal with that, but I believe that if a preacher was able to drive fear and loathing into their congregants hearts for "people who deny the deity of Christ" than it's that preacher who will have to explain this to Jesus one day.
The confused congregant who tried their best to follow God under that type of training, I feel for them. Imagine being convinced by someone else that you needed to condemn fellow believers because of a doctrinal implication that you don't even understand.
I had someone comment on the last episode who was under the impression that I would look at others as though they were pagan for not believing in Jesus like I did. I think it was projection. People just assume that "attack," "condemn," and "reject" is the default mode for people. It's sad. There is no harm in giving someone the benefit of the doubt, listening closely, understanding where they are coming from, and then explaining why you see it differently. At least that's my perception. Maybe there's a time where declaring everyone else is pagan serves some glorious purpose, but I don't see it.
Well said
I disagree. As a previous "non denominational" trinitiatian of 40 years, I do not believe I was hearing or teaching others the true Gospel. Being a trinitarian means you are preaching a different God, a different, Jesus, and a different Gospel. Just because it sounds alot like the truth, doesn't make it ok or that "God sees the hearts." When I hear people say "God knows their heart" its equivalent to saying "its ok to go against the word of God because you are a good person." This is dangerous and not something God ever said to false teachers.
@@MissusTayIor A different gospel is the Penal Substitutionary Atonement teaching. That is far more damaging to Christianity than the Trinity doctrine. Yes, the Trinity doctrine has its downside but most practicing Christians don't believe it and don't put it to any practical use. It is just confusion.
@@kevingeorge1095 it really does no good for anyone to be comparing what’s worse if both are wrong. If I said “well I lie sometimes but atleast I’m not a homosexual” would I be right in making such a comparison if both are wrong?
ha ha, i saw that second example, the one who mentioned rant. It made me laugh.
She must have found a Diamond in the rough with that Baptist church. That certainly hasn’t been my experience with them.
For myself I don’t care for “church” as it is today. A lot of wasted resources paying salaries, mortgages, sound equipment, etc. plus I’m beginning to learn belonging to a church and having “right” doctrine isn’t what’s important. What’s important is loving your neighbor.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 Jn. 4:7)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 Jn. 4:16)
Anyone who does what is good is from God. (3 Jn. 1:11)
I get where you are coming from. "Church" that doesn't facilitate and expand those very activities (love, doing good), may well be hindering, not expanding the reach of the Messiah. It is a blessing when communities do this well. And yeah, I know what you mean about diamond in the rough. I've heard from many who likewise struggled with them. Thankfully, for Kassie, it was positive and helped her spread her wings and see what a community of believers can look like. Appreciate the thoughts!
@@MichaelTheophilus906 Yes, there is much truth to that. I guess it depends on how you define happy. If happy means, "I am able to serve Jesus, helping people, feeding hungry, etc. and that is juxtaposed to an authoritarian or highly isolated "fellowship" that gets the doctrine right... I would have to think long and hard about which is better. Honestly, I'm constantly reminded of Jesus' description of judgement day. He's not at all pleased with those who did not help the needy, nor is he pleased with people who bury there talents.
Am I saying that error is perfectly fine? No. But there are some groups that have error, but also have a humble spirit and can openly discuss these things. If one can find something like that, then one may have a purpose there broader than just being in a community that brings light to the world. It could be that God wants you there to help open their eyes further.
Now, if being happy means "they have great potlucks and the music is delightful" then spot on. You are correct. It's not about us, its about being Jesus' hands and feet to those around us.
Good for her if she found peace of God in another place.
I am still in the way international in another country and God marvelously showed his loves and power in my life BECAUSE I came myself to focus not on men or leaders but on God's word (I know people will question about the Way international teachings being True or wrong. That's not my point as we live in a society where every church has its beliefs according to their view of the Bible). Some of those things I experienced are finding answers in prayers (not all for sure) praying for sickness and people recovered, casting out demons in the name of Jesus Christ and God was with some of us (locally).
It's always hard to judge a movement or organisation since you will always find flaws and weaknesses because of men. The Way international has his "methods" that cannot please many people and teachings that can be questionable and debating. But the same can be applied to many other organisations. This to say we have to stick in God's word we learn every time we read it being part or not of an organisation. God is above all and will enlighten you once you ask Him.
Philippians 3 : 15
Note: Because of, let's say, our unitarian's view of the bible I landed here as I often follow teaching on One God. 😊
Thanks for your thoughts! I think you are correct. There isn't such a thing as a perfect group, and the tendencies exist everywhere for excessive authority and pressure, etc. I'm pleased to see that you kept your heart oriented effectively and that it's been great for your faith! Great comment. Thanks!
THERE is No need for a NEW name that represents the Teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles ,We are called Christians which means followers of Christ .
@Mark
Hey, man, I'm a JW myself and I do want to ask you to PLEASE take negative things said with a grain of salt and potential chance that there are ppl that 'hate' JWs and look for opportunities to go and sy ridiculus things simply to smear us. (2 Cor 11:14)
That being said- there are also some of our brothers and sisters that do display a level of inmaturity and say things in ways they'd be better off not saying. (Col 4:6; Pr 12:18)
Thanks! I totally get that. I know some amazing people from various groups. I try to be careful to not indict individuals in bulk. If you do think I overstepped, I do want to know. I tried to just respond to him, as his response juxtaposed to the other was exceptionally intriguing to me.
It's great to have you following along. It's good to hear from thoughtful folks. Certainly, those who smear others are everywhere. Just raising an eyebrow to the doctrine of the Trinity can trigger the smearing. "Attack" is the default for many, many people.
Great to hear from you.
Does UCA have material on salvation?
Every organization has their own view of “salvation.” Wish I could link some articles here for you but alas TH-cam will just delete it.
No. Well, to explain... The UCA is a single-issue advocacy group and a networking resource. It isn't a "church" or faith community itself. We intentionally limited our scope so that we could do something unique, help people connect who would otherwise easily have "fallen off" through the weight of isolation. This doctrinal position often causes people to isolate, and that's not good.
Instead of having a "statement of faith" or other broader materials, we just help people get connected to groups and communities which do that. We are, technically, just a small team of volunteers, and it's enough to keep content on this one doctrine flowing, and to coordinate events for one God believing folks to meet others.
That said, what were you looking for?
@@UCAPodcastHostthank you for your answer.
I am currently meditation on salvation by faith alone (ASOS) vs discipleship..
Would just love your take on it, as we pretty much agree on everything regarding the father and the son.
@@JKV84 My take on it is based on Jesus' teachings that we are to love one another. Whatever I did to the least of them, his brethren, I did unto him. Thus, if I forgo love, if I mistreat his brothers and sisters, I can't see how Jesus would add, "But you did say a prayer when you were 12, so you're welcome in."
I think the language that is used for OSAS has to be seen in light of the direct instructions of the Messiah. Much of it comes from Paul, and Peter himself recognizes some of Paul's writings are challenging. Thus, on Peter's caution, and on Jesus' explicit description of what he's looking for come judgement day, I chose to understand Paul in a way that doesn't seem to push back on Jesus. I take the language that sounds OSAS and recognize that some of it can also be generalizations which certainly do apply.
Glad to answer more specific questions. To your question, the UCA is a networking tool, and not a broad teaching ministry, but as individuals, we certainly have thoughts on these and many subjects. We all participate in various ways with others, through fellowship, visiting, prayer, etc.
So in this case, this is my personal answer to you question. Welcome! I look forward to future interactions!
Just wanted to add this im jist leabing behind the false teaching of. Trinity.
Do u think Vhrist ss ''firstborn of all crestion': refers to Him as inheritor of all now he is glorified n triumphant at Hodd rihht hand?
Hi @hm-rm7qq, yes, that's how I primarily think of it. The firstborn is the one who inherits what was the father's. So, in this case, all creation is destined to become the Messiah's inheritance. Thanks for listening!
Everybody hates on Way International yet who else has doctrine publications as accurate as them? Tithing and leader worship are the direct problems in the ministry sure, yet it is the problem in practically every single religious organization in existence. Who else is teaching home fellowship church structure? Who else has books exhausting why God is not a trinity? Y'all sit in your group therapy podcasts talking crap about everyone and it is childish. Why not talk about the accurate things ministrys are doing, so that christians can continue to improve? What you're doing is called gossip and debate, which the Scripture condemns.
Every legitimate Church on the planet whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, believes in the trinity. Are we to believe that the gates of hell have indeed prevailed against the church?
You are living in rebellion and have made yourselves your own authority, doing what is right in your own eyes. Repent of your lawlessness and come home.
Thanks for the note, and thanks for listening. I'm Mark, the host.
I don't see the gates of hell as having prevailed. Every legitimate church on the planet introduces its congregations to the contents of Scripture. They introduce and instruct on the teachings of the Messiah. They teach that the Son of God went to the cross for their sins. They teach that God raised him from the dead.
Now, they also teach Trinitarian language which (because it isn't presented as explicit teaching in Scripture) takes on many variations. The world of Trinitarian speculations is colorful and, at times, sordid.
In every legitimate church on the planet, there are believers who don't get hung up on the Trinitarian requirements of their creeds, and instead go with what they see explicitly in Scripture. There is one God, and he's the Father. There is one Lord, and he is Jesus. The Father is Jesus' God. And he's our God. All the rest of the philosophical conjecture is just noise.
Sure, they sing the songs, and nod their head in agreement, but ask them specifics. Many simply talk the way people did in the book of Acts. And that isn't Trinitarian.
So, because of this amazing success at promulgating believers in the simple and explicit teaching of Scripture, I believe that the gates of hell have not prevailed and that truth has spread, despite authoritative pressure and fear.
Wonderful, precious followers of Jesus and his God have persisted through the centuries. The hell gates are impotent.
@@UCAPodcastHost And Jesus also is God, it is explicitly taught in scripture and that's why it is a part of every church's creed or mission statement. Just because some church members don't care to understand it or concern themselves with it is beside the point, that after all could be said of most of scripture.
Hebrews 1:8-14
Surely if all of Christ's churches are teaching a false doctrine about the very nature of Christ then God did a very poor job in communicating to His church. Not that only but it is unanimously agreed upon as being a fundamental and foundational teaching, i.e. if you don't believe it you are not actually in line with the faith and teaching of your church, a.k.a. heresy.
We put our faith in Christ BECAUSE of who He is. He sits on the throne in Heaven ruling all of creation forever and ever BECAUSE of who He is. He was able to do everything He has done BECAUSE of who He is. To deny the nature of Christ is to fall away from the faith, which is why every heretic cult dethrones Christ from being God who came in the flesh.
John 1:14
@@iamtheteapot7405 Great points. I don't disagree that Jesus can also be called God. He explained this to his critics in John 10:34. Your reference to Hebrews 1:8 is an example of that. That Psalm was originally written for the king of Israel, and it wasn't scandalous or confusing. The term "god" can be applied in various ways. What is clear from Psalm 45 is that the king (called "god") had a God.
I have the view that any being who has a God over them is not the one God almighty. So, all those who were called gods, as Jesus described in John 10, would be easily distinguished from Yahweh because Yahweh is God over them. No one mistakes Moses for God almighty, or any of Israel's kings, or the judges, or any other case where elohim may be used on a human. We can confidently know that the term god has a different meaning when it is used on a human.
Thus, when it is applied to Jesus, and we know Jesus is a human, and we know that Jesus has a God, it means, to me, that the most appropriate meaning of "Jesus is god" would be "Jesus represents God and is one through whom God is speaking and working" (the point in John 10:34).
So, I'm just trying to interpret the use of the term "God" in line with other Scripture and with Jesus' own teaching.
I suspect you disagree, but I would ask which of these is the reason it is wrong:
A) Mark is wrong because "god" is not used on humans the way he thinks it is.
B) Mark is wrong because the majority of the church sees it differently
C) Mark is wrong for another reason
Thanks! Great discussion.
@@UCAPodcastHost While I don't disagree with your interpretation of the use of the term elohim, there is a glaring issue with your interpretation. Let's read on in Johyn chapter 1 and see that Jesus (The Word) is the same God whom by all things were created.
I imagine you will disagree with that interpretation of John 1, despite the fact that it has always been the churches interpretation of the passage. No problem because the other passage I mentioned solidifies the interpretation.
Let's read on in Hebrews 1 and while yes, the first mention of the Son as God is a quote concerning King David, if we read on in the chapter we can see that a very different interpretation of God is being applied, not a representative of God being called God but rather the true God who created the heavens and the earth verses 10-12.
So when we look at all of scripture we can see a recurring pattern of Jesus being attributed with the position, titles, attributes and deeds of the one true God. i.e. He can do all things that the Father does John 5:19, He has the authority and dominion that the Father does (i.e. sits on the throne, reigns forever over all things), He is called what the Father is (mighty God, father of eternity, alpha and omega, first and the last), and He does the works that the Father does (created the Heavens and the earth). Furthermore He possesses the Glory that the Father does and is worshipped as the Father is.
Forgive the long response but this is something you must hear me out on. The church of Christ has been established by the Lord Himself and to depart from it is to be in complete rebellion of God's established covenant. I want the fullness of truth for you and that is not found outside the Church.
@@iamtheteapot7405 Thank you. I can see that you are sharing your thoughts sincerely and out of love.
Yes, I do interpret John 1 differently. It is a poetic and tersely written section which has been read in many ways over the years. I would suggest you look more closely at the first few centuries. John 1 was not read in a trinitarian way, but in a subordinationist way, at least by many of the church fathers. Jesus was a secondary being. It's quite fascinating, honestly, and it tells a different story than that interpretation that "has always been the churches interpretation."
I'm not strictly in disagreement here. I do believe the church was established, I think I may be differing with you on what that is.
If I may ask, since you reference the church in every comment so far. Do you believe that the church has the authority to establish doctrine? Do you believe that when a majority of the church holds to a particular view, that view is to be deemed accurate and that disagreeing with it is rebellion?