My deepest condolences for your loss.I am sure that in missing an episode your viewer’s will understand,it takes as long as it needs..My best wishes to you both Cheers Roly🇬🇧.
My condolences in regards to your Father passing! Mine passed away too soon and he never got to see my boat. So I took some of his ashes, drilled a hole in the flag pole and put him in there with some epoxy That way He is sailing with me wherever I go! All the best Richard
That’s a nice idea. We plan to scatter his ashes in Palma bay which is where he lived in his boat for many years. Maybe I’ll keep some on board as well.
I have been researching for 55-60’ monohull or 50’ish blue watercatamaran for the last few years and my early retirement is heading up fast so I need to really get things in place so we can get some sailing in on whichever type of boat we get so we are familiar before heading out to sea long term.. I have been sailing since I was 12years old have just sold my Westerly Merlin which we had from new for the last 33 years.. I have always loved oyster yachts but do have concerns with the new direction. I see the benefits of the old school real blue water yachts and also appreciate the speed and handling and lower draught and space of the newer designs. I agree with most of your points and it is something I’m really struggling with when it comes to making the right choice for us as I have a lot of respect for the power of the sea.. Where I differ from yourself is your arrogant and self righteous way you approached the dealer.. It’s not what you were saying it is the way you said it..
Delivered one of these from Newport to St. Martin ---- the previous generation @ 52'. Left out on November 4 on the heels of a four day NE ly. I spent the first hour up the mast in the bay outside of Newport beating on the main sail with a soft mallet before I got it to free up. Lots of WD 40 and a number of test furls and we elected to go to sea. (Nobody ever said that delivery skippers were smart--- just perpetually in need of dollars). I paid for the Oyster's design deficiencies with a visit to the ER in Bermuda after being thrown from the galley all the way across the salon and landing on my elbow in the chart table. The interior desicrators who design the insides of modern boats should be required to spend at least one day aboard when the seas are up. Maybe they would then specify hand holds where you can move from one to the next without letting go of the boat. I can't see where this latest shellfish has corrected the problem(s). One of the smartest things I have heard on the topic came from John Krersctmer a few years back. He said that having passages tight enough that you can brace your hip on them as you move about is even more important than handholds in a true sea boat. Name one new modern sailboat that meets that basic criteria?
Sorry to hear about your Father. Many good points that I agree with. I thought Oyster did away with encapsulated keels and one fell off. I think for a retracting keel twin rudders make sense. I've seen them skeg hung and they would need to be able to be separated for just in case.
Yes Oyster went away from encapsulated keels some time ago, the oyster that lost its keel was a big one, an 828 I think. I remember they said it wasn't the keel boats but the internal design that was at fault. I don't know how that would increase confidence in the boat!
I don't know, it is getting harder to find a boat with single spade rudder these days, I can only find a last generation Sun Odyssey DS. Other than difficulty in berthing, what are the disadvantage?
Well there are instances where twin rudders may be an advantage, but for me that’s only really for shoal draft, lifting keel type configurations. Racing boats like twin rudders as the rudders can be smaller so less wetted area when they are heeled over with just one rudder properly in the water at a good angle. But the more experience you have as a cruiser the more you will realise that is just not important and there are other points of much greater concern. My feeling is the ‘sexy’ racing fashions, twin rudders, plumb bows etc have crept into production boats because people think it’s cool. Then designers have latched onto the fat arsed, huge cockpit designs which may be great for party’s and only leaving the marina under force 5, but are not by any stretch of the imagination an off-shore boat. For me a cruising boat with twin rudders out of line with the keel is just asking for trouble. If you have a home marina and sail the same half a dozen bays every year you’re probably fine, but sailing as cruisers do into new unknown, often badly charted bays and marinas with some very unexpected fishing techniques and sometimes detritus in the water why would you want to have the most important, mission critical part of the boat stuck out the side of the boat just asking for trouble? I think the rudder munching Orcas where we are right now are sending a message to the idiots designing boats now to point out the error of their ways!
@@svfairisle what would you think about single spade rudder vs twins? I have read some horrible reports of breach in twin rudder box attachment but have no clue if single spade would be any better. Really, mostly all new major production except for 30 ft or under are twin rudders, single rudder have been phased out around mid 2000's or so.
@@wckoek Yes it’s all to do with hull shape and taking the beam way aft. Designers (who in my opinion should be designing apartments not boats) love the space both in the cockpit and the interior it gives. On the sailing side, for coastal sailing in good conditions it’s all fine, in fact you can get a pretty fast boat. But these are NOT blue water boats. So its all about hull shape not which rudder it has, the thing is almost all modern production boats have designed the hull first (for maximum space, not for sailing) then fitted twin rudders because it’s the only way of steering the damn things! So yes there are a lot of single spade ruddered boats out there with nice hull shape that won’t slam badly and won’t be unbalanced by a following sea. Twin ruddered boats with good hull shape are few and far between, I’m going to try and find a good boat designer to see if boats like the new Hallberg Rassys have come up with something that works or if they’ve just sold out too in order to compete with the production boats.
@@svfairisle its a hard market, and the good old boats are getting much to old to fix and refit economically these days. I've heard there are yards in Turkey that would do custom/semi-custom boats these days for not much difference in price to production boats but I haven't investigate further. They don't build new boats in Taiwan and Thailand anymore and I haven't seen anything worthwhile coming out of China yet.
@@wckoek Turkey has been a good place to get things done, not sure that’s true right now though as the economy is in trouble and they’ve had raging inflation for 2 years. Marina prices have quadrupled since we were there 2 years ago, but that may be supply and demand, lots of people want to escape Schengen there and all the Russian super yachts are escaping sanctions there so pushing the price up. Kraken are still going strong in Bodrum building proper off shore boats, not quite production boat prices but good value if you have deep pockets!
For a true blue water boat a long keel is the best configuration with the propeller in the deadwood so no cut out of the rudder not a fin and Skeg ! Elley Grey is a 10/12 knot boat with this arrangement !
It’s spelled right, did you see his “Captains Log” series? (James from Zingaro) I believe he was delivering a boat or it belonged to a friend, but he really liked everything about that boat and they got in some situations too. He felt like it kept them safe, I can’t remember what it was however but the videos were great too.
Personally I wouldn’t go for a new yacht as there are so few quality blue water boats being made now. I think I would either have something made to spec like Distant Shores are doing or buy a Bluewater ( from the old Hylas moulds) or a Kraken
Personally, seeing how much configuration you can choose on an oyster I feel sure your issues could be addressed. Regarding the twin rudders this is not a major issue, it is in my opinion a matter of choice. So, if I could afford it I would go for an oyster that is well proven at circumnavigation and what a better way of doing it but by a professionally organised team.
Not sure what you mean. Oyster have stopped the buyer having any choice in hull design. The whole range is now twin ruddered so with no configuration choice that's taken them out of the equation for all of us who wouldn't want to cruise in a twin ruddered boat.
@@svfairisle sorry, for clarity about the rudders it’s a matter of choice for the owner to determine which he prefers. I can see benefits of both solutions. However I do really enjoy all your videos, very interesting. Keep up the good work
"why is there a TV in the bedroom" - lots of people do, I have one that pops out of the end of my bed. Cant beat watching a film under the duvet when its cold.
Hi Steve. On the rudder thing. I completely get your point. And every yacht has its compromises. This design, like many, has a wide beam carried all the aft. And 'shallow' rudders to match the shallow draft. So twin rudders. And perhaps buyers think twin rudders are cool, or even de riguer these days. So it's both the designer and buyers choice. Fair enough. My question is, are you aware of any twin rudder designers who have a break-to-fail-safe (a 'fuse' to protect the second rudder), AND, all behind a waterproof/crashproof bulkhead. Somebody must be doing this??
Yes many designers are coming up with rudders that are designed to break at a certain depth so at least you are left with some rudder and the impact has less chance of bending the shaft and locking everything up. Some are going with a system that will fold and then can be reset which sounds like a good idea. Perhaps the most important thing is being able to quickly isolate the rudders though so if one get hit and jams the whole system (which is what happened in both the cases I witnessed) you can pull a pin and still steer on one rudder, all be it not very effectively.
It’s not just the vulnerability of twin rudders to damage, but also the seaworthiness issues huge wide sterns bring, with following seas, particularly combined with plumb bows which deliver no more buoyancy when plunging into the next wave. Well done to Steve for belling the cat here as well.
I haven’t seen one in the flesh, but it looks like they’ve got a good compromise between carrying some beam aft to give you space in the aft cabins but the underwater hull shape looks excellent, Not sure about not going for the center cockpit, seems to me they’re doing this to set themselves apart but center cockpits are good for a reason, well several reasons! Easier to handle short handed, and less intimidating to dock, better motion at sea, safer. But having an aft cockpit does mean you have a very impressive large saloon area, so if they’ve gone for the wow factor by doing that rather than f”(/ing up the hull then I’m all for it!
Hmmm. Not so sure about the superiority of hydraulic over electric. The fact is, in the last 20 years more and more large cargo ships are using electric mooring winches, where they used to have hydraulic only. Benefits of no hydraulic lines that can corrode etc. are valid. And with proper electric protection you get an easy, very linear and powerful integration... Pros and cons, vs, single preference bias.
I've not heard of ships going electric with their winches. Maybe there's some electric tech thats improving the situation, but that's not the case with any installations I have seen. Salt water and high amp devices are not a good mix, if you're stating corrosion on hydraulic pipes as a down side then the electric connections in an installation have got to be many times more vulnerable? and dangerous. My main grip with electric that I've seen though is lack of consistent power. Yes you might be able to have high torque devices these days but can you keep using them without something tripping out? I know of several boats with electric thrusters where the skipper has to be careful how long they use it as the thermal trip will kick in if they do it too much. Our friend in Eastbourne had a very big gash in the bow of his large motorboat where the thruster said no just at the wrong moment as he was docking and left him on the dock.
@@svfairisle I’m not saying your arguments are not fair and real only that they are one sided. And being a Captain of large container ships, I can validate that reality is that whilst hydraulic mooring winches are still more common on large container ships, it’s more due to price than reliability. Electric winches are often superior especially in the long run.
Okay thats interesting. Is there some new technology for large powered electric motors? From my experience of any large motor that has brushes and a commutator they tend to burn out the commutator because of the large currents and involved on anything less than a scrupulously clean system and salt air usually means it's not. I've also had many people say they trip through overheating quite regularly, our neighbour in Eastbourne had a nice gash in his bow to prove it when his bowthruster tripped out as he was docking!
Hmmmmn I feel you are very much swimming against the tide about the twin rudders. I know you love the Kraken, which I hate, but it does feel like you are stuck in the 1980’s. I do agree with you about the hydraulics, I just just don’t understand their thinking. I have two main issues with oysters, first is that they come standard with in mast furling, which you should have had an issue with, all that weight always up there and have have not known a long term owner that hasn’t at some stage had issues furling them. I checked because we were considering getting an oyster and you have to pay extra for slab reefing or as we wanted in boom furling. My other issue is their price, I can go out and buy a HH55 for the price of a oyster 575, they sail to the same angles, one is faster than the wind and has a shed full more space. I just have to get over the fact that it is a catamaran.
mmm that HH55..... yep get over it - the right cat is an awesome piece of kit - if you can afford it. If I could afford one I wouldn't spend so much time online ;-)
Yep agreed, so many of these things are about balance of probabilities, rather than absolute dogmatic right and wrong. How many times have you bemoaned the docking handling of FairIsle? Twin thrusters and rudders would make short work of that or dare I say, med mooring and they may be a more frequent occurrences than crashing aground at speed, which often has some element of user error?
Wow, can’t believe they wanted extra for slab reefing! I’ve bashed in mast furling endlessly so I gave the guy a break with that one! As far as being stuck in the 80’s I think twin rudders will be found out just like the extremes of the bolt on keels we’re in the Fastnet race. Twin rudders ARE NOT progress when it comes to an off shore cruising boat I’m sure of that
We’ve got a whole piece on the HH coming out. It’s an incredible high tech boat, but the money involved, not just in buying it, but in keeping it on the water are insane!
And as an aside, perhaps some training schools should offer (pre ARC) 'yacht control without rudder' courses, both sail balance and warp towing. This might highlight both the problem and opportunity.
Any knowledge that can be used in an emergency is worth knowing. However, those techniques are desperate actions, and more oriented towards loss of rudder control, not loss of the rudder itself (or locking up out of centre), which is the perspective Steve is coming from I think. Fin keel boats need the rudder to track. Also, there's a good chance water will be entering the boat as well. What would make sense for ARC to do is to help educate people on the risks of certain designs, so they are fully informed. Maybe they do.
I have never liked the idea of electrickery on deck apart from the instrument and nav kit you either need a massive cable run to power something like a thruster (impractical) or a dedicated battery that needs its own charger. if you already have a hydraulic system onboard at the design stage it seems bonkers to me not to use it for thrusters and the windlass. Condolences on the loss of your father.
My greatest disappointment is that, like the cheaper production boats they use balsa cores in the topsides. It won't be a problem for the first owners but in thirty years time water will have got in somewhere and the balsa will have turned to mush. The mush will have no strength and an area of topsides will just fold. Balsa cors in decks are bad but in topsides, could be fatal. S the concept of someone buying a cheap old hull and renovating it will no longer exist.
Yes you can't get around the fact that having a slim fin keel means it's got to go deeper to get the righting moment, even with this lifting keel and the silly twin rudders this thing was no shoal draft vessel!
Not true . You don’t have to go deeper with “a slim fin keel” , because you generally have a bulb at the bottom, where the righting moment is greatest. You make the keel deeper if the desire is to have better windward performance. The shallow draft version of any sailboat has a heavier keel (usually a bigger bulb) so that the righting moment is the same. The leeway, however will be greater. As for “ this thing was no shoal draft vessel”. It was 5.5 feet draft!! That is about as shallow as any 57’ monohull sailboat can possibly be. That, of course is why that boat had twin rudders. A single 5.5’ depth rudder on an Oyster 575 would spin out the whole time. That boat at Annapolis (presumably) was American owned. I’m sure they ordered it like that, not ‘to be a marina queen’, but to be able to use it in the waters where they live. On the eastern seaboard of the US from the Chesapeake down to Florida, and the Bahamas, anything over 6’ shuts you out of an awful lot of places to go. Like all boats, everything is a trade off, but if you are lucky enough to be the first owner and have it built for you, then you can pick what works for your intended use.
Ha! Well first of all there are worse things. Tom undoubtedly knows more than both of us put together! But I know what you mean. I did talk to him when I made the the Anchoring 101 video, but he still uses a Delta and a Bruce so he gracefully declined being in that video! I’m certainly not against progress. I spent 35 years in the broadcast industry fighting against Luddite tendencies, but I just fail to see how twin rudders can be looked at as an improvement in yacht design, I would love to be proved wrong as everyone seems to be going that way now.
@@svfairisle "I spent 35 years in the broadcast industry fighting against Luddite tendencies..." You must have loved the comedy series "W1A" about the BBC, did you? If you haven't seen it, you'll love it!! And I know just what you mean, I've been in the printing industry almost that long, railing against the same thing, the last 12 years of it in a Government printing dept. no less, where "We've always done it this way." is a comment I hear often and makes me spit nails. As for single vs twin, I don't have enough experience to have an informed opinion, but I'm thinking with twin there's twice the expense, twice as much to go wrong, and personally speaking, as with good (ie. proper) graphic design, I think less is more. Lastly, condolences about your Dad, been there and I still miss him every day.
He says 800 Ah Lithium battery. But he does not say at what voltage? If 12 v thats 9600 watts ,at 24 its 19200 watts and at 48 volts where I would expect it to be 40,000 watts. Telling you the voltage makes a big difference to the size of battery..
More of an apartment than a boat. For the owner seeking said, a good choice. The boat feels sterile. Once again the galley on the side so no cohesive social area and wide open space to fly around in. Volvo engine--get ready to spend bucks on maintenance. The aversion to twin rudders--personally, I just see those rudders as rakes and also they double the chances of impact damage and mechanical issues. But maybe that's just traditionalist bias. Those portlights--at least they can be replaced without much fuss. Imagine having to removed and reseal one of the currently omnipresent one-piece curved tinted lenses? The positive--these are incredible living platforms, comfy, commodious and structurally sound. Also, the line has been successful and it seems like Oyster is not going anywhere soon, so parts and tech support are there. Thank you for being candid.
The review is very interesting. I am a little confused by the assessment that an Oyster is a coastal cruiser because it has twin rudders and you don't like the hydraulic set up. There are a great deal a blue water cruisers with twin rudders (too many to list). Oysters have a great deal of experience and credibility, and as you say run a RTW rally. There are a few RTW TH-cam channels that have been sailing their Oysters RTW for many years without issue. Thanks for sharing
The guys out there on Oysters at the moment do not have twin rudders. Older Oysters had a good hull design, they’ve always focused on the luxuries. We actually filmed some friends in series 1 who had just bought an Oyster and I was taking the Micky about having aircon. They actually sold that oyster very quickly and went back to a Bowman. I must contact them and find out why. Personally I think Oyster have sold out and want to compete in the ‘marina queen’ sector which is probably more lucrative than real yachts, which I think is a real shame!
@@svfairisle not really correct infofar as "the guys out there on oysters dont have twin rudders" There are plenty of them, distributed on the OWR, ARC, personal use etc. As there are also a lot of other brands sailing with twin rudders. Even imoca Boats have them and those guys hunt out for the stuff that most folk run from. Twin rudders give you significantly greater steering control when powered up than a balanced spade rudder, which gives more than a skeg rudder , which is significantly more than a barn door type on a long keel boat. Steering loads are much lower, so autopilot and crew driving are not as fatigued. Also the physical loads on a much smaller rudder area are much less than on a single deep rudder. So one could build two rudders that are actually stronger than a single. And shock horror every cat out there has twin rudders. Yes some have a small keel / stub keel on the hull. Not all though. As you mention twin rudders can help with more performance and if you have ever crossed an ocean (not a sea) chasing weather systems every 0.5 knot is gold. I once left the galopgas enroute to French Polynesia we were on a fin keel spade rudder cruising boat. Friends were on a similar sized long keel older generation design (3ft shorter) boat left just before us. We left 4hrs after them. We arrived 10 days ahead of them (yes 10 days) So being able to sail fast and efficiently is something to value - a lot. If twin rudders contribute to that, then that's brilliant.
@@jmreverie It's all a choice of course. There's no denying these modern hull designs are much faster than boats like ours. It's also true that faster passage making is not only nice, but can add to safety in avoiding bad weather. As long as your expectation is not to 'our run' storms then if you make your choices on those grounds then in my book going the modern route is perfectly valid. I just want people to have the whole picture and not just the one painted by salesmen. My issue with modern hulls is two fold. Firstly on the issue of ocean sailing I disagree with your assessment of the way the loading works. It might be true if we were comparing similar hull shapes with these rudder types, but we are not. Some twin ruddered boats still have a reasonable hull shape with good rocker and reserve buoyancy fore and aft (the Oyster seems not too bad in this respect, although maybe the extended version we were on not so much?) The problem is that increasingly production brands that have historically been making boats for the charter and occasional sailors market, are now pushing the beam all the way aft, flattening the hull with the aim of massively increasing volume. Older production boats are the ones that have been snapped up by cruisers on a budget to take off shore. They do a reasonable job kitted out the right way and provide a big percentage of the cruising boats out there. The question is how are these new designs going to fare? In a big following sea there is no way that twin rudders will give you more control than a full keeled boat. I personally would go much further and say that these types of boat would be dangerously uncontrollable in these conditions. The massive discrepancy in buoyancy fore and aft when they are heeled means the twin rudders have no chance of avoiding a broach. You might be lucky and be safely in port by the time bad weather comes and the guy with the older boat is still out there, but maybe not. If you're both still out there who's laughing then?! Personal choice to which way you want to go. This is the extreme though and it's not my main point for disliking twin ruddered boats for cruising. In my experience no matter how experienced and careful the skipper, it is very easy to make a small mistake that in an older style boat is no problem but in a twin ruddered boat will ruin you day, cost you a fortune, or worse. As an example while entering a marina in Northern France I was shown to a berth by a rib and the marinaro (on her first day) led me over the sill wall by mistake. The small swell meant that we banged the bottom hard 3 times as we went over. For us no damage, but a twin ruddered boat would have become a no ruddered boat. There are several other occasions I have had that would have definitely damaged a boat with such exposed rudders as well. So for me the down side of possible damage to a very vulnerable part of the boat (that you have chosen to make a hundred times more vulnerable than older designs) is not a choice I want for a cruising boat where I will be constantly entering bays and harbours I have no experience of. The issue I had with Oyster was that they seem to have a head in the sand attitude not at least building in some contingency. Why haven't they got a quick release system to isolate the rudders so that you can still steer with one rudder if the other gets hit and jams the system (which in my experience is what happens) Why havent they got a system that will break the bottom half of the rudder off in a strong impact and at least give you a chance if you bash the bottom, which must be the most common accident? Catamarans do tend to be able to disconnect the rudders more easily and at least have two engines which can give you some degree of control in an emergency, but choosing a cat over a mono for cruising is a whole other subject, lets not go there!
Steve, I started laughing when you wouldn't let him off the hook regarding the twin rudder setup. Remembered your interview with Kraken yachts and Dick praising the single-rudder (protected) setup 😂
I have been watching your production, on and off for a few years, and I too agree that your disappointed criticism of the twin rudder set-up was to a point caricatural. The salesman remained professional; not sure I would have because I think you’re a bit disingenuous, not to say jealous. You question Oysters’ choice, but all you show here are your voyages around the Mediterranean as a retired couple; exactly like the persons on the market for which modern boats are also built. You demand a seaworthiness you clearly don’t need. Your negative attitude demonstrates you actually know you own an old fashion boat, not ideally suited for the relatively easy cruising life you’ve chosen for retirement. Yes, I have seen the episode when you bravely handle rough conditions - but that is the exception. Even the way Judy replies to you at the very end is revealing. Without clearly saying it, she could see herself sailing around the Mediterranean on an Oyster. No hard feelings and sincere condolences.
As for going around the world, I think the pricier the boat, the less distance traveled. The owner has to stay close to where that money is coming from.
The concept of a capable, comfortable and safe sailing boat that can go anywhere seems to have gone out of the window with this boat . I am nearly 80 and if I had the means it would suit me down to the ground for pottering around the Morbihan where I live but even for doing the sort of West Country / Brittany cruising that I used to do in my Albin Ballad I can see its limitations as Steve , with considerably more experience than me, so rightly points out.
I shouldn’t make assumptions of sailing when you’re older, I fully intend to be properly sailing when I’m 80 as my dad was. And Jean luc van den Heede won the last GGR, thd toughest race in the world when he was 73. So age is just a number.
I see from other comments that you have suffered loss recently and I am sorry. However, I found your attitude, tone and questions to the charming Oyster representative hostile, biased, premeditated and disrespectful of a great British brand. Your connection with Kraken is well known, but Oyster has a fleet of boats currently circumnavigating yet again and there is no evidence that any of them have had problems with twin rudders, or electric motors. I am pleased your wife recognised the brilliant British craftsmanship on the interior and all over the 575 and your conclusion made you look rather silly.
Firstly just to be clear we have no connection with Kraken. We have reviewed their boat and got the opportunity to sail one as we would if we had the opportunity on any other good boat. As to Dan, the Oyster salesman, yes he was charming and seemed like a nice guy. Partly because of that I think I went very easy on him, just look at the comment from Richard above, It would have been easy to find all the faults with the Oysters interior in respect of being a good offshore boat, but actually the lack of hand holds and bad access to the engine because having a large gally and an open saloon are the things that sell boats. Also saying, there are lots of boats out there and they seem to be okay, as you and Dan both have is nonsense. You have no idea of the real life problems some of these designs are putting forward good or bad. That fact that when I asked the question, 'what do you have in place for steering with one rudder if the other gets damaged' was met with the response ' we don't see that happening and any boat can have it's rudder damaged' just shows a similar head in the sand approach. A boat like that claims to be a blue water boat should at least have a quick release pin that can be pulled so that the steering can be isolated to still steer with the good rudder. One of the boats I have experience with tapped it's rudder on the sill coming into Chichester marina, a small bang that the skipper hardly felt, but it was enough to lock the whole steering leaving him motoring into the marina with no steerage. Had that been done hitting a log just off a rocky shore he may have lost the boat with no way of quickly disconnecting the steering from the jammed rudder. Having rudders sticking out the sides of your boat makes them vulnerable in a way that a in-line rudder, skegged or keel hung isn't so manufacturers should be designing in ways of coping if something goes wrong. I fully expected Dan to say Oyster had something in place, but it seems they are going with the head in the sand option. Well I just dont think thats good enough!
The Oxford dictionary definition of “connection” is “something that connects two facts, ideas etc”. I am suggesting no more than that. You have reviewed a Kraken boat and had the founder/chairman on yours. You are connected. You say you went easy on Dan, the Oyster rep, and I suggest you compare and contrast that video with the sugary alternatives on the Kraken and Fair Isle viewing tapes. As you well know, Oysters are semi custom yachts, if the owner didn’t order enough hand holds for your taste, perhaps she is doing a different kind of sailing? Access to the engine is usually from both sides and from under the transom steps. Your video comment when this was explained was “lovely”! This really just leaves you with rudder damage which Oyster has not experienced in any considerable way in millions of miles of blue water cruising. As others have said, Oysters and other high end twin rudder yachts have been designed by the best marine architects in the world. To suggest Oyster (and by implication others) has its head in the sand over a potential major safety issue is inflammatory and does you no credit. Maybe you are just frustrated at being overtaken so frequently by beautiful Oysters?
@@timb-f6672 We would certainly be overtaken by an Oyster, that’s not in question, they are a much faster boat. There was no difference in my approach to Oyster than there was to Kraken. Anything that could be a weakness on the Kraken I challenged. The fact there wasnt much to challenge shows up the difference between the Kraken and the Oyster when it comes to seaworthiness. Take the large windscreen they both have. I asked virtually the same thing of Dick and Dan. Dicks answer was it has an unbreakable 3Ms layer (which I then researched to find out if it was correct, it was ) Dans answer was the head in the sand one of it shouldn’t happen, and if it does there’s a blanking plate (is there though? Really! For that bloody great big windscreen! Where do you store it?) Re the engine access, yes I was going easy on Dan as I said. Access to the port side of the engine through the galley cabinet is less than ideal. We have a review of a Hylas coming up that shows how it should be done. Oyster have made a lovely boat to be onboard, it’s luxury, but they have compromised it’s seaworthiness to do it, that’s just a fact. Saying otherwise just make them look dishonest
Your approach to Kraken was entirely different in tone and objective. You were totally supportive of the brand, notwithstanding the type of use an owner might require. Do you really think the Oyster glass windscreen is substandard? Do you really think access to the engine on the 575 is poorly designed. Steve, you are grasping at straws. If I were “connected” to Oyster Yachts, I would suggest Paul Adamson give you a call to straighten out your misconceptions! Your 575 Review was an Oyster ambush as others have said. Your channel is much diminished. Shame.
I much agree with you assessment of the Oyster having viewed the latest coverage of the 495. It would seem ponsification has intervened between quality (an Oyster strength) with design integrity. Presumably their market is made up of those who desire to be seen on a yacht as opposed to sailing one in wild off-shore conditions.
My goodness Steve you were really thorough with that Oyster Guy. Great questions and a tough review. But you represented the sailing community well. Most interesting area was the use of electric power v hydraulic! Thank you. ⛵️
Yes I'm sure that's why the magazine reviews seem to never go further than a bunch of insipid platitudes when they look at something that is obviously second rate.
Having sailed on a 625 I’d have to agree with a lot of the comments, however whoever designed the hull shape and rig got it very right, it sailed like a dream. Its a shame that Oyster then seems to make the wrong choices for the rest of the fit out.
Yes that's always been my take on it, but there's a comment from Bjorn who says he's on ships and electric winches are now favoured over hydraulic. I'm waiting on a reply to why that is, could be interesting, is there some new electric tech that's made thing much better???
To be honest we all use an electric anchor winch which is mostly trouble free. Yes you have to maintain it. I also had one electric winch in the cot pit mounted by the companion way and no trouble over 10 years of use.
OK Steve , so he didn't buy you lunch. 😜 No, actually it was good to hear a frank and honest opinion, and yes it was educational too. Thanks to you both 👌
Steve, my wife and I enjoyed your review of the Oyster 575. We agree with pretty much everything you said and implied. The salesperson was, to my mind, most disingenuous (or ignorant) in implying that the twin-rudder system, which was required for the limited-draft shallow-keel version of the 2010-design 575, had performance-value that owners wanted in standard-keel boats and hence the twin rudders on current standard-keel Oysters. As we know, twin rudders do not provide the extra "performance". They are required on any boat that apes the design of a shallow hulled racing boat with full-beam carried to the stern. That boat will broach when well heeled if it does not have a rudder on either side of the stern, and even with twin rudders it will be more prone to broach than a deeper, balanced hull, with a decent rudder that is preferably skeg or semi-skeg mounted. That Oyster and, worse, Hallberg-Rassy are now following nearly all of the production-yacht manufacturers to this racing boat hull shape is, to my mind, unforgivable. At least the salesperson spoke to you with some interest in your questions. At Düsseldorf about twenty years ago we were dismissed - probably because we didn't look rich enough and we were not British - by an Oyster salesperson when we were trying to get answers to questions about an Oyster 49 or 53. We bought a 50 ft Swedish boat instead, and discovered that the woodwork, design, engine room, and construction were superior to Oyster, and the cost was less. I replied below to the commenter "Tim B-F". You may find my reply of some interest.
Thanks for that. I'm afraid Tim will not listen to your well informed reply. Some people will just blindly follow a brand no matter what they do. I though we gave Oyster a very good review given what we were faced with yet Tim asked 'why I hate Oyster so much?" very strange! It's up to people to educate themselves about boat I suppose but it doesn't help when salesmen push designs that were built to give you one thing, in this case space, and try and make out it's all positive for every situation when its clearly not. I actually didn't know Oyster had moved all it's line to twin rudders, had I known I would not have arranged to do the review. I avoided HR for that very reason. Several people on here think I ambushed Oyster but nothing could be further from the truth, I would left them out as I did HR and focused on more suitable boats for long term cruising. People get very defensive when you point out deficiencies in boats they like or own, I'm not sure why exactly. Tim probably though he was being clever suggesting I might be jealous after being out run by Oysters! Why would I be upset by that? It's a much faster boat than a Han Christian so of course they would overtake us! If everybody got to grips with the fact there is no one boat that is good for everything then people might be more open to realising that everything is a compromise and you make your choices depending on what you want your boat for.
@@svfairisle My understanding that the 575 you reviewed is a different configuration and that most 575's are fully skegged single rudder. I know however the next iteration of Oyster (595, 565, 495)are all double-ruddered.
Totally agree on the twin rudders giving more interior space vs. safety - a trade off I would not wanna make on a blue water boat. Also Amel has the twins for the same reason 👎. Thanks for sharing!
I won't be parting with someone else's £1.2M for a boat with twin collapsible rudders ( I know I've haven't you yet honey, but I'm being careful already) the guy was full of poop once on deck. Sorry to hear of your loss Steve, tough times. Best wishes from Scotland.
oysters so old fashioned and not in a good way. cruisers want visibility while under way for one thing, they need a raised pilothouse option. not a pretend blue water Bimini, look at moody, orion 49, and every catamaran out there. socializing and shite weather helming. a raised keel option, theyre learning.
Why don’t you tell your viewers the connection you have with Kraken and perhaps that’s the reason you try put down other builders. Lost all respect, sorry!
@@svfairisle reading the other comments it seems I’m not alone in my thinking. Would suggest taking down this post as not doing you or Kraken any favours!
@@davidnichols195 It's video that shows Oyster are no longer in the game of making ocean going boats. They were always teetering on the edge of luxury over ability I suppose but in their day they made good boats. When I set out to make this video I thought it would be placing Oyster up there with the boats that one might consider buying as an offshore cruising boat. This video proves that is not the case, so in that respect if I was only interested in showing true blue-water boats I should take it down. But I think it does a good job of showcasing the difference between boat builders who are trying to make off shore boats and those that are just chasing the easy quick sales in marina queens, so I certainly wont be taking it down!
Lost for words…..but thankfully this is just your opinion and taken from someone who sails an old school yacht and clearly doesn’t like or appreciate new design features. Each to their own but clearly you are stuck in your ways. The oyster, contest and HR for that matter use many of the same features and all are very competent and capable blue water sailors.
Your vlog has legitimacy and respect because of your experience, knowledge and especially the candor. Thx.
My deepest condolences for your loss.I am sure that in missing an episode your viewer’s will understand,it takes as long as it needs..My best wishes to you both Cheers Roly🇬🇧.
My condolences Steve . Your family are more important than your channel ; take your time , I am sure your audience understands .
Sincerest condolences Steve, Judy and your family. May he rest in eternal peace. God bless.
same
My condolences in regards to your Father passing!
Mine passed away too soon and he never got to see my boat.
So I took some of his ashes, drilled a hole in the flag pole and put him in there with some epoxy That way He is sailing with me wherever I go!
All the best Richard
That’s a nice idea. We plan to scatter his ashes in Palma bay which is where he lived in his boat for many years. Maybe I’ll keep some on board as well.
I have been researching for 55-60’ monohull or 50’ish blue watercatamaran for the last few years and my early retirement is heading up fast so I need to really get things in place so we can get some sailing in on whichever type of boat we get so we are familiar before heading out to sea long term.. I have been sailing since I was 12years old have just sold my Westerly Merlin which we had from new for the last 33 years.. I have always loved oyster yachts but do have concerns with the new direction. I see the benefits of the old school real blue water yachts and also appreciate the speed and handling and lower draught and space of the newer designs. I agree with most of your points and it is something I’m really struggling with when it comes to making the right choice for us as I have a lot of respect for the power of the sea.. Where I differ from yourself is your arrogant and self righteous way you approached the dealer.. It’s not what you were saying it is the way you said it..
I actually thought I was very gentle on him. Maybe it's coming from a background in news journalism but I don't appreciate sales patter.
Delivered one of these from Newport to St. Martin ---- the previous generation @ 52'. Left out on November 4 on the heels of a four day NE ly. I spent the first hour up the mast in the bay outside of Newport beating on the main sail with a soft mallet before I got it to free up. Lots of WD 40 and a number of test furls and we elected to go to sea. (Nobody ever said that delivery skippers were smart--- just perpetually in need of dollars). I paid for the Oyster's design deficiencies with a visit to the ER in Bermuda after being thrown from the galley all the way across the salon and landing on my elbow in the chart table. The interior desicrators who design the insides of modern boats should be required to spend at least one day aboard when the seas are up. Maybe they would then specify hand holds where you can move from one to the next without letting go of the boat. I can't see where this latest shellfish has corrected the problem(s).
One of the smartest things I have heard on the topic came from John Krersctmer a few years back. He said that having passages tight enough that you can brace your hip on them as you move about is even more important than handholds in a true sea boat.
Name one new modern sailboat that meets that basic criteria?
Sorry to hear about your Father. Many good points that I agree with. I thought Oyster did away with encapsulated keels and one fell off.
I think for a retracting keel twin rudders make sense. I've seen them skeg hung and they would need to be able to be separated for just in case.
Yes Oyster went away from encapsulated keels some time ago, the oyster that lost its keel was a big one, an 828 I think. I remember they said it wasn't the keel boats but the internal design that was at fault. I don't know how that would increase confidence in the boat!
So sorry for your loss.
I don't know, it is getting harder to find a boat with single spade rudder these days, I can only find a last generation Sun Odyssey DS.
Other than difficulty in berthing, what are the disadvantage?
Well there are instances where twin rudders may be an advantage, but for me that’s only really for shoal draft, lifting keel type configurations. Racing boats like twin rudders as the rudders can be smaller so less wetted area when they are heeled over with just one rudder properly in the water at a good angle. But the more experience you have as a cruiser the more you will realise that is just not important and there are other points of much greater concern. My feeling is the ‘sexy’ racing fashions, twin rudders, plumb bows etc have crept into production boats because people think it’s cool. Then designers have latched onto the fat arsed, huge cockpit designs which may be great for party’s and only leaving the marina under force 5, but are not by any stretch of the imagination an off-shore boat. For me a cruising boat with twin rudders out of line with the keel is just asking for trouble. If you have a home marina and sail the same half a dozen bays every year you’re probably fine, but sailing as cruisers do into new unknown, often badly charted bays and marinas with some very unexpected fishing techniques and sometimes detritus in the water why would you want to have the most important, mission critical part of the boat stuck out the side of the boat just asking for trouble? I think the rudder munching Orcas where we are right now are sending a message to the idiots designing boats now to point out the error of their ways!
@@svfairisle what would you think about single spade rudder vs twins?
I have read some horrible reports of breach in twin rudder box attachment but have no clue if single spade would be any better.
Really, mostly all new major production except for 30 ft or under are twin rudders, single rudder have been phased out around mid 2000's or so.
@@wckoek Yes it’s all to do with hull shape and taking the beam way aft. Designers (who in my opinion should be designing apartments not boats) love the space both in the cockpit and the interior it gives. On the sailing side, for coastal sailing in good conditions it’s all fine, in fact you can get a pretty fast boat. But these are NOT blue water boats. So its all about hull shape not which rudder it has, the thing is almost all modern production boats have designed the hull first (for maximum space, not for sailing) then fitted twin rudders because it’s the only way of steering the damn things! So yes there are a lot of single spade ruddered boats out there with nice hull shape that won’t slam badly and won’t be unbalanced by a following sea. Twin ruddered boats with good hull shape are few and far between, I’m going to try and find a good boat designer to see if boats like the new Hallberg Rassys have come up with something that works or if they’ve just sold out too in order to compete with the production boats.
@@svfairisle its a hard market, and the good old boats are getting much to old to fix and refit economically these days.
I've heard there are yards in Turkey that would do custom/semi-custom boats these days for not much difference in price to production boats but I haven't investigate further.
They don't build new boats in Taiwan and Thailand anymore and I haven't seen anything worthwhile coming out of China yet.
@@wckoek Turkey has been a good place to get things done, not sure that’s true right now though as the economy is in trouble and they’ve had raging inflation for 2 years. Marina prices have quadrupled since we were there 2 years ago, but that may be supply and demand, lots of people want to escape Schengen there and all the Russian super yachts are escaping sanctions there so pushing the price up. Kraken are still going strong in Bodrum building proper off shore boats, not quite production boat prices but good value if you have deep pockets!
Condolences to you and your family. .............. This was a very entertaining and informative review. That poor Oyster rep!! LOL
For a true blue water boat a long keel is the best configuration with the propeller in the deadwood so no cut out of the rudder not a fin and Skeg ! Elley Grey is a 10/12 knot boat with this arrangement !
I learned about the oyster from sailing zingaro I don’t think I spelled it right but it’s one of my favorite boats now they’re beautifully made
It’s spelled right, did you see his “Captains Log” series? (James from Zingaro) I believe he was delivering a boat or it belonged to a friend, but he really liked everything about that boat and they got in some situations too. He felt like it kept them safe, I can’t remember what it was however but the videos were great too.
What do you guys think about Island Packets was there any of those at the show?
Yes great boats, unfortunately none at the show
My condolences Steve, Judy and family. Take time for your kin, your fans will certainly wait!
Suspect Dick Beaumont from Kraken Yachts would 100% agree with you on your twin rudder views 😉 - especially for a cruising boat.
Well done, about time someone asked some decent questions. I’m sick of the fluffy yacht reviews, which seem to be thinly veiled shilling!
Sincere condolences .
Interesting comments but in reality what 60ft new sailing yacht would you buy that’s ‘better’?
Personally I wouldn’t go for a new yacht as there are so few quality blue water boats being made now. I think I would either have something made to spec like Distant Shores are doing or buy a Bluewater ( from the old Hylas moulds) or a Kraken
Personally, seeing how much configuration you can choose on an oyster I feel sure your issues could be addressed. Regarding the twin rudders this is not a major issue, it is in my opinion a matter of choice. So, if I could afford it I would go for an oyster that is well proven at circumnavigation and what a better way of doing it but by a professionally organised team.
Not sure what you mean. Oyster have stopped the buyer having any choice in hull design. The whole range is now twin ruddered so with no configuration choice that's taken them out of the equation for all of us who wouldn't want to cruise in a twin ruddered boat.
@@svfairisle sorry, for clarity about the rudders it’s a matter of choice for the owner to determine which he prefers.
I can see benefits of both solutions. However I do really enjoy all your videos, very interesting. Keep up the good work
"why is there a TV in the bedroom" - lots of people do, I have one that pops out of the end of my bed. Cant beat watching a film under the duvet when its cold.
Don’t tell Judy that, I have better ways of us keeping warm when it’s cold!
@@svfairisle Its not that sort of channel!!! 😆😆
Cheers guys..
Fair points of course, but I do fancy the new 495 as my dream boat for Med cruising... Sorry, just read the notes; sympathies for your loss.
Hi Steve. On the rudder thing. I completely get your point. And every yacht has its compromises. This design, like many, has a wide beam carried all the aft. And 'shallow' rudders to match the shallow draft. So twin rudders. And perhaps buyers think twin rudders are cool, or even de riguer these days. So it's both the designer and buyers choice. Fair enough. My question is, are you aware of any twin rudder designers who have a break-to-fail-safe (a 'fuse' to protect the second rudder), AND, all behind a waterproof/crashproof bulkhead. Somebody must be doing this??
Yes many designers are coming up with rudders that are designed to break at a certain depth so at least you are left with some rudder and the impact has less chance of bending the shaft and locking everything up. Some are going with a system that will fold and then can be reset which sounds like a good idea. Perhaps the most important thing is being able to quickly isolate the rudders though so if one get hit and jams the whole system (which is what happened in both the cases I witnessed) you can pull a pin and still steer on one rudder, all be it not very effectively.
It’s not just the vulnerability of twin rudders to damage, but also the seaworthiness issues huge wide sterns bring, with following seas, particularly combined with plumb bows which deliver no more buoyancy when plunging into the next wave. Well done to Steve for belling the cat here as well.
What do you think of Rustler 56?
I haven’t seen one in the flesh, but it looks like they’ve got a good compromise between carrying some beam aft to give you space in the aft cabins but the underwater hull shape looks excellent, Not sure about not going for the center cockpit, seems to me they’re doing this to set themselves apart but center cockpits are good for a reason, well several reasons! Easier to handle short handed, and less intimidating to dock, better motion at sea, safer. But having an aft cockpit does mean you have a very impressive large saloon area, so if they’ve gone for the wow factor by doing that rather than f”(/ing up the hull then I’m all for it!
Hmmm. Not so sure about the superiority of hydraulic over electric. The fact is, in the last 20 years more and more large cargo ships are using electric mooring winches, where they used to have hydraulic only. Benefits of no hydraulic lines that can corrode etc. are valid. And with proper electric protection you get an easy, very linear and powerful integration... Pros and cons, vs, single preference bias.
I've not heard of ships going electric with their winches. Maybe there's some electric tech thats improving the situation, but that's not the case with any installations I have seen. Salt water and high amp devices are not a good mix, if you're stating corrosion on hydraulic pipes as a down side then the electric connections in an installation have got to be many times more vulnerable? and dangerous. My main grip with electric that I've seen though is lack of consistent power. Yes you might be able to have high torque devices these days but can you keep using them without something tripping out? I know of several boats with electric thrusters where the skipper has to be careful how long they use it as the thermal trip will kick in if they do it too much. Our friend in Eastbourne had a very big gash in the bow of his large motorboat where the thruster said no just at the wrong moment as he was docking and left him on the dock.
@@svfairisle I’m not saying your arguments are not fair and real only that they are one sided. And being a Captain of large container ships, I can validate that reality is that whilst hydraulic mooring winches are still more common on large container ships, it’s more due to price than reliability. Electric winches are often superior especially in the long run.
Okay thats interesting. Is there some new technology for large powered electric motors? From my experience of any large motor that has brushes and a commutator they tend to burn out the commutator because of the large currents and involved on anything less than a scrupulously clean system and salt air usually means it's not. I've also had many people say they trip through overheating quite regularly, our neighbour in Eastbourne had a nice gash in his bow to prove it when his bowthruster tripped out as he was docking!
Hmmmmn I feel you are very much swimming against the tide about the twin rudders. I know you love the Kraken, which I hate, but it does feel like you are stuck in the 1980’s. I do agree with you about the hydraulics, I just just don’t understand their thinking.
I have two main issues with oysters, first is that they come standard with in mast furling, which you should have had an issue with, all that weight always up there and have have not known a long term owner that hasn’t at some stage had issues furling them. I checked because we were considering getting an oyster and you have to pay extra for slab reefing or as we wanted in boom furling.
My other issue is their price, I can go out and buy a HH55 for the price of a oyster 575, they sail to the same angles, one is faster than the wind and has a shed full more space. I just have to get over the fact that it is a catamaran.
Appreciate your input
mmm that HH55..... yep get over it - the right cat is an awesome piece of kit - if you can afford it. If I could afford one I wouldn't spend so much time online ;-)
Yep agreed, so many of these things are about balance of probabilities, rather than absolute dogmatic right and wrong. How many times have you bemoaned the docking handling of FairIsle?
Twin thrusters and rudders would make short work of that or dare I say, med mooring and they may be a more frequent occurrences than crashing aground at speed, which often has some element of user error?
Wow, can’t believe they wanted extra for slab reefing! I’ve bashed in mast furling endlessly so I gave the guy a break with that one! As far as being stuck in the 80’s I think twin rudders will be found out just like the extremes of the bolt on keels we’re in the Fastnet race. Twin rudders ARE NOT progress when it comes to an off shore cruising boat I’m sure of that
We’ve got a whole piece on the HH coming out. It’s an incredible high tech boat, but the money involved, not just in buying it, but in keeping it on the water are insane!
And as an aside, perhaps some training schools should offer (pre ARC) 'yacht control without rudder' courses, both sail balance and warp towing. This might highlight both the problem and opportunity.
Any knowledge that can be used in an emergency is worth knowing. However, those techniques are desperate actions, and more oriented towards loss of rudder control, not loss of the rudder itself (or locking up out of centre), which is the perspective Steve is coming from I think. Fin keel boats need the rudder to track. Also, there's a good chance water will be entering the boat as well. What would make sense for ARC to do is to help educate people on the risks of certain designs, so they are fully informed. Maybe they do.
I have never liked the idea of electrickery on deck apart from the instrument and nav kit you either need a massive cable run to power something like a thruster (impractical) or a dedicated battery that needs its own charger. if you already have a hydraulic system onboard at the design stage it seems bonkers to me not to use it for thrusters and the windlass.
Condolences on the loss of your father.
Deepest condolences Steve, celebrate his life rather than mourn his passing xx
Ref going twin rudders, I think that decision has a lot to do with Oyster trying to regain some popularity after the detachable keen disaster.
Yes maybe, but do they think by having exposed vulnerable rudders will distract you for worrying about the keel?!
My greatest disappointment is that, like the cheaper production boats they use balsa cores in the topsides. It won't be a problem for the first owners but in thirty years time water will have got in somewhere and the balsa will have turned to mush. The mush will have no strength and an area of topsides will just fold. Balsa cors in decks are bad but in topsides, could be fatal. S the concept of someone buying a cheap old hull and renovating it will no longer exist.
Are you sure they use balsa cores? That’s not what I had read. If I had known that I would have given the salesman a MUCH harder time!
What about the large draft on these boats? Hmm
Yes you can't get around the fact that having a slim fin keel means it's got to go deeper to get the righting moment, even with this lifting keel and the silly twin rudders this thing was no shoal draft vessel!
Not true . You don’t have to go deeper with “a slim fin keel” , because you generally have a bulb at the bottom, where the righting moment is greatest. You make the keel deeper if the desire is to have better windward performance. The shallow draft version of any sailboat has a heavier keel (usually a bigger bulb) so that the righting moment is the same. The leeway, however will be greater. As for “ this thing was no shoal draft vessel”. It was 5.5 feet draft!! That is about as shallow as any 57’ monohull sailboat can possibly be. That, of course is why that boat had twin rudders. A single 5.5’ depth rudder on an Oyster 575 would spin out the whole time. That boat at Annapolis (presumably) was American owned. I’m sure they ordered it like that, not ‘to be a marina queen’, but to be able to use it in the waters where they live. On the eastern seaboard of the US from the Chesapeake down to Florida, and the Bahamas, anything over 6’ shuts you out of an awful lot of places to go. Like all boats, everything is a trade off, but if you are lucky enough to be the first owner and have it built for you, then you can pick what works for your intended use.
Sorry to hear of your loss. Condolences from us two. Steve, don't turn into Tom Cunliffe, 😁 Sail Safe Guys, Ant & Cid. xx
"Steve, don't turn into Tom Cunliffe,"
What the hell does that mean?
Ha! Well first of all there are worse things. Tom undoubtedly knows more than both of us put together! But I know what you mean. I did talk to him when I made the the Anchoring 101 video, but he still uses a Delta and a Bruce so he gracefully declined being in that video! I’m certainly not against progress. I spent 35 years in the broadcast industry fighting against Luddite tendencies, but I just fail to see how twin rudders can be looked at as an improvement in yacht design, I would love to be proved wrong as everyone seems to be going that way now.
@@svfairisle "I spent 35 years in the broadcast industry fighting against Luddite tendencies..."
You must have loved the comedy series "W1A" about the BBC, did you? If you haven't seen it, you'll love it!!
And I know just what you mean, I've been in the printing industry almost that long, railing against the same thing, the last 12 years of it in a Government printing dept. no less, where "We've always done it this way." is a comment I hear often and makes me spit nails.
As for single vs twin, I don't have enough experience to have an informed opinion, but I'm thinking with twin there's twice the expense, twice as much to go wrong, and personally speaking, as with good (ie. proper) graphic design, I think less is more.
Lastly, condolences about your Dad, been there and I still miss him every day.
Isn’t it interesting that, after an in-depth view of the Kraken, every other boat gets filtered through that educative experience.
Can I find out what the asking price is?
its about 1.5Million
I believe this was over $2 million. A 2018. price dropped $200k since the boat show.
He says 800 Ah Lithium battery. But he does not say at what voltage? If 12 v thats 9600 watts ,at 24 its 19200 watts and at 48 volts where I would expect it to be 40,000 watts. Telling you the voltage makes a big difference to the size of battery..
It was at 24v, sorry should have put up a caption to clarify that.
More of an apartment than a boat. For the owner seeking said, a good choice. The boat feels sterile. Once again the galley on the side so no cohesive social area and wide open space to fly around in. Volvo engine--get ready to spend bucks on maintenance. The aversion to twin rudders--personally, I just see those rudders as rakes and also they double the chances of impact damage and mechanical issues. But maybe that's just traditionalist bias. Those portlights--at least they can be replaced without much fuss. Imagine having to removed and reseal one of the currently omnipresent one-piece curved tinted lenses? The positive--these are incredible living platforms, comfy, commodious and structurally sound. Also, the line has been successful and it seems like Oyster is not going anywhere soon, so parts and tech support are there. Thank you for being candid.
Some valid points, but what a beautiful boat at least the orcas get a choice of what rudder too eat.
If an orca tries to eat my rudder I’m going to feed him a 45 lead pellet with high speed injection.
The review is very interesting. I am a little confused by the assessment that an Oyster is a coastal cruiser because it has twin rudders and you don't like the hydraulic set up. There are a great deal a blue water cruisers with twin rudders (too many to list). Oysters have a great deal of experience and credibility, and as you say run a RTW rally. There are a few RTW TH-cam channels that have been sailing their Oysters RTW for many years without issue. Thanks for sharing
The guys out there on Oysters at the moment do not have twin rudders. Older Oysters had a good hull design, they’ve always focused on the luxuries. We actually filmed some friends in series 1 who had just bought an Oyster and I was taking the Micky about having aircon. They actually sold that oyster very quickly and went back to a Bowman. I must contact them and find out why. Personally I think Oyster have sold out and want to compete in the ‘marina queen’ sector which is probably more lucrative than real yachts, which I think is a real shame!
@@svfairisle not really correct infofar as "the guys out there on oysters dont have twin rudders"
There are plenty of them, distributed on the OWR, ARC, personal use etc.
As there are also a lot of other brands sailing with twin rudders. Even imoca Boats have them and those guys hunt out for the stuff that most folk run from.
Twin rudders give you significantly greater steering control when powered up than a balanced spade rudder, which gives more than a skeg rudder , which is significantly more than a barn door type on a long keel boat. Steering loads are much lower, so autopilot and crew driving are not as fatigued.
Also the physical loads on a much smaller rudder area are much less than on a single deep rudder.
So one could build two rudders that are actually stronger than a single.
And shock horror every cat out there has twin rudders.
Yes some have a small keel / stub keel on the hull. Not all though.
As you mention twin rudders can help with more performance and if you have ever crossed an ocean (not a sea) chasing weather systems every 0.5 knot is gold.
I once left the galopgas enroute to French Polynesia we were on a fin keel spade rudder cruising boat.
Friends were on a similar sized long keel older generation design (3ft shorter) boat left just before us.
We left 4hrs after them.
We arrived 10 days ahead of them (yes 10 days)
So being able to sail fast and efficiently is something to value - a lot.
If twin rudders contribute to that, then that's brilliant.
@@jmreverie It's all a choice of course. There's no denying these modern hull designs are much faster than boats like ours. It's also true that faster passage making is not only nice, but can add to safety in avoiding bad weather. As long as your expectation is not to 'our run' storms then if you make your choices on those grounds then in my book going the modern route is perfectly valid. I just want people to have the whole picture and not just the one painted by salesmen. My issue with modern hulls is two fold. Firstly on the issue of ocean sailing I disagree with your assessment of the way the loading works. It might be true if we were comparing similar hull shapes with these rudder types, but we are not. Some twin ruddered boats still have a reasonable hull shape with good rocker and reserve buoyancy fore and aft (the Oyster seems not too bad in this respect, although maybe the extended version we were on not so much?) The problem is that increasingly production brands that have historically been making boats for the charter and occasional sailors market, are now pushing the beam all the way aft, flattening the hull with the aim of massively increasing volume. Older production boats are the ones that have been snapped up by cruisers on a budget to take off shore. They do a reasonable job kitted out the right way and provide a big percentage of the cruising boats out there. The question is how are these new designs going to fare? In a big following sea there is no way that twin rudders will give you more control than a full keeled boat. I personally would go much further and say that these types of boat would be dangerously uncontrollable in these conditions. The massive discrepancy in buoyancy fore and aft when they are heeled means the twin rudders have no chance of avoiding a broach. You might be lucky and be safely in port by the time bad weather comes and the guy with the older boat is still out there, but maybe not. If you're both still out there who's laughing then?! Personal choice to which way you want to go. This is the extreme though and it's not my main point for disliking twin ruddered boats for cruising. In my experience no matter how experienced and careful the skipper, it is very easy to make a small mistake that in an older style boat is no problem but in a twin ruddered boat will ruin you day, cost you a fortune, or worse. As an example while entering a marina in Northern France I was shown to a berth by a rib and the marinaro (on her first day) led me over the sill wall by mistake. The small swell meant that we banged the bottom hard 3 times as we went over. For us no damage, but a twin ruddered boat would have become a no ruddered boat. There are several other occasions I have had that would have definitely damaged a boat with such exposed rudders as well. So for me the down side of possible damage to a very vulnerable part of the boat (that you have chosen to make a hundred times more vulnerable than older designs) is not a choice I want for a cruising boat where I will be constantly entering bays and harbours I have no experience of. The issue I had with Oyster was that they seem to have a head in the sand attitude not at least building in some contingency. Why haven't they got a quick release system to isolate the rudders so that you can still steer with one rudder if the other gets hit and jams the system (which in my experience is what happens) Why havent they got a system that will break the bottom half of the rudder off in a strong impact and at least give you a chance if you bash the bottom, which must be the most common accident? Catamarans do tend to be able to disconnect the rudders more easily and at least have two engines which can give you some degree of control in an emergency, but choosing a cat over a mono for cruising is a whole other subject, lets not go there!
Excellent, take no prisoners interview. Great discussion on the twin rudder set up.
Steve, I started laughing when you wouldn't let him off the hook regarding the twin rudder setup. Remembered your interview with Kraken yachts and Dick praising the single-rudder (protected) setup 😂
Twin rudders are good enough for the ocean race imoca 60s theyre good enough for a cruising boat.
Formula One cars run on slicks but I don't fancy it on my Transporter van.
I have been watching your production, on and off for a few years, and I too agree that your disappointed criticism of the twin rudder set-up was to a point caricatural. The salesman remained professional; not sure I would have because I think you’re a bit disingenuous, not to say jealous. You question Oysters’ choice, but all you show here are your voyages around the Mediterranean as a retired couple; exactly like the persons on the market for which modern boats are also built. You demand a seaworthiness you clearly don’t need. Your negative attitude demonstrates you actually know you own an old fashion boat, not ideally suited for the relatively easy cruising life you’ve chosen for retirement. Yes, I have seen the episode when you bravely handle rough conditions - but that is the exception. Even the way Judy replies to you at the very end is revealing. Without clearly saying it, she could see herself sailing around the Mediterranean on an Oyster. No hard feelings and sincere condolences.
As for going around the world, I think the pricier the boat, the less distance traveled. The owner has to stay close to where that money is coming from.
We toured this boat as well. It was for sale at over $2 million US.
The concept of a capable, comfortable and safe sailing boat that can go anywhere seems to have gone out of the window with this boat . I am nearly 80 and if I had the means it would suit me down to the ground for pottering around the Morbihan where I live but even for doing the sort of West Country / Brittany cruising that I used to do in my Albin Ballad I can see its limitations as Steve , with considerably more experience than me, so rightly points out.
I shouldn’t make assumptions of sailing when you’re older, I fully intend to be properly sailing when I’m 80 as my dad was. And Jean luc van den Heede won the last GGR, thd toughest race in the world when he was 73. So age is just a number.
I see from other comments that you have suffered loss recently and I am sorry. However, I found your attitude, tone and questions to the charming Oyster representative hostile, biased, premeditated and disrespectful of a great British brand. Your connection with Kraken is well known, but Oyster has a fleet of boats currently circumnavigating yet again and there is no evidence that any of them have had problems with twin rudders, or electric motors. I am pleased your wife recognised the brilliant British craftsmanship on the interior and all over the 575 and your conclusion made you look rather silly.
Firstly just to be clear we have no connection with Kraken. We have reviewed their boat and got the opportunity to sail one as we would if we had the opportunity on any other good boat. As to Dan, the Oyster salesman, yes he was charming and seemed like a nice guy. Partly because of that I think I went very easy on him, just look at the comment from Richard above, It would have been easy to find all the faults with the Oysters interior in respect of being a good offshore boat, but actually the lack of hand holds and bad access to the engine because having a large gally and an open saloon are the things that sell boats. Also saying, there are lots of boats out there and they seem to be okay, as you and Dan both have is nonsense. You have no idea of the real life problems some of these designs are putting forward good or bad. That fact that when I asked the question, 'what do you have in place for steering with one rudder if the other gets damaged' was met with the response ' we don't see that happening and any boat can have it's rudder damaged' just shows a similar head in the sand approach. A boat like that claims to be a blue water boat should at least have a quick release pin that can be pulled so that the steering can be isolated to still steer with the good rudder. One of the boats I have experience with tapped it's rudder on the sill coming into Chichester marina, a small bang that the skipper hardly felt, but it was enough to lock the whole steering leaving him motoring into the marina with no steerage. Had that been done hitting a log just off a rocky shore he may have lost the boat with no way of quickly disconnecting the steering from the jammed rudder. Having rudders sticking out the sides of your boat makes them vulnerable in a way that a in-line rudder, skegged or keel hung isn't so manufacturers should be designing in ways of coping if something goes wrong. I fully expected Dan to say Oyster had something in place, but it seems they are going with the head in the sand option. Well I just dont think thats good enough!
The Oxford dictionary definition of “connection” is “something that connects two facts, ideas etc”. I am suggesting no more than that. You have reviewed a Kraken boat and had the founder/chairman on yours. You are connected. You say you went easy on Dan, the Oyster rep, and I suggest you compare and contrast that video with the sugary alternatives on the Kraken and Fair Isle viewing tapes. As you well know, Oysters are semi custom yachts, if the owner didn’t order enough hand holds for your taste, perhaps she is doing a different kind of sailing? Access to the engine is usually from both sides and from under the transom steps. Your video comment when this was explained was “lovely”! This really just leaves you with rudder damage which Oyster has not experienced in any considerable way in millions of miles of blue water cruising. As others have said, Oysters and other high end twin rudder yachts have been designed by the best marine architects in the world. To suggest Oyster (and by implication others) has its head in the sand over a potential major safety issue is inflammatory and does you no credit. Maybe you are just frustrated at being overtaken so frequently by beautiful Oysters?
@@timb-f6672 We would certainly be overtaken by an Oyster, that’s not in question, they are a much faster boat. There was no difference in my approach to Oyster than there was to Kraken. Anything that could be a weakness on the Kraken I challenged. The fact there wasnt much to challenge shows up the difference between the Kraken and the Oyster when it comes to seaworthiness. Take the large windscreen they both have. I asked virtually the same thing of Dick and Dan. Dicks answer was it has an unbreakable 3Ms layer (which I then researched to find out if it was correct, it was ) Dans answer was the head in the sand one of it shouldn’t happen, and if it does there’s a blanking plate (is there though? Really! For that bloody great big windscreen! Where do you store it?) Re the engine access, yes I was going easy on Dan as I said. Access to the port side of the engine through the galley cabinet is less than ideal. We have a review of a Hylas coming up that shows how it should be done. Oyster have made a lovely boat to be onboard, it’s luxury, but they have compromised it’s seaworthiness to do it, that’s just a fact. Saying otherwise just make them look dishonest
Your approach to Kraken was entirely different in tone and objective. You were totally supportive of the brand, notwithstanding the type of use an owner might require. Do you really think the Oyster glass windscreen is substandard? Do you really think access to the engine on the 575 is poorly designed. Steve, you are grasping at straws. If I were “connected” to Oyster Yachts, I would suggest Paul Adamson give you a call to straighten out your misconceptions! Your 575 Review was an Oyster ambush as others have said. Your channel is much diminished. Shame.
Ha! well you've certainly drunk the Oyster cool aid. I think it's clear to see who is and isn't biased in the conversation!
A house that sails, who needs a catamaran? Almost perfect but for those pesky twin rudders!
I much agree with you assessment of the Oyster having viewed the latest coverage of the 495. It would seem ponsification has intervened between quality (an Oyster strength) with design integrity.
Presumably their market is made up of those who desire to be seen on a yacht as opposed to sailing one in wild off-shore conditions.
My goodness Steve you were really thorough with that Oyster Guy. Great questions and a tough review. But you represented the sailing community well. Most interesting area was the use of electric power v hydraulic! Thank you. ⛵️
If you critique them too hard you might not get invited back 🤠
Yes I'm sure that's why the magazine reviews seem to never go further than a bunch of insipid platitudes when they look at something that is obviously second rate.
She will sail the sea that has no tides ;)
Having sailed on a 625 I’d have to agree with a lot of the comments, however whoever designed the hull shape and rig got it very right, it sailed like a dream. Its a shame that Oyster then seems to make the wrong choices for the rest of the fit out.
Electric motors in a damp salt air environment should be the last choice for an around the world cruiser.
Yes that's always been my take on it, but there's a comment from Bjorn who says he's on ships and electric winches are now favoured over hydraulic. I'm waiting on a reply to why that is, could be interesting, is there some new electric tech that's made thing much better???
To be honest we all use an electric anchor winch which is mostly trouble free. Yes you have to maintain it. I also had one electric winch in the cot pit mounted by the companion way and no trouble over 10 years of use.
My condolences Steve.
OK Steve , so he didn't buy you lunch. 😜
No, actually it was good to hear a frank and honest opinion, and yes it was educational too.
Thanks to you both 👌
Steve, my wife and I enjoyed your review of the Oyster 575. We agree with pretty much everything you said and implied. The salesperson was, to my mind, most disingenuous (or ignorant) in implying that the twin-rudder system, which was required for the limited-draft shallow-keel version of the 2010-design 575, had performance-value that owners wanted in standard-keel boats and hence the twin rudders on current standard-keel Oysters. As we know, twin rudders do not provide the extra "performance". They are required on any boat that apes the design of a shallow hulled racing boat with full-beam carried to the stern. That boat will broach when well heeled if it does not have a rudder on either side of the stern, and even with twin rudders it will be more prone to broach than a deeper, balanced hull, with a decent rudder that is preferably skeg or semi-skeg mounted. That Oyster and, worse, Hallberg-Rassy are now following nearly all of the production-yacht manufacturers to this racing boat hull shape is, to my mind, unforgivable.
At least the salesperson spoke to you with some interest in your questions. At Düsseldorf about twenty years ago we were dismissed - probably because we didn't look rich enough and we were not British - by an Oyster salesperson when we were trying to get answers to questions about an Oyster 49 or 53. We bought a 50 ft Swedish boat instead, and discovered that the woodwork, design, engine room, and construction were superior to Oyster, and the cost was less.
I replied below to the commenter "Tim B-F". You may find my reply of some interest.
Thanks for that. I'm afraid Tim will not listen to your well informed reply. Some people will just blindly follow a brand no matter what they do. I though we gave Oyster a very good review given what we were faced with yet Tim asked 'why I hate Oyster so much?" very strange! It's up to people to educate themselves about boat I suppose but it doesn't help when salesmen push designs that were built to give you one thing, in this case space, and try and make out it's all positive for every situation when its clearly not. I actually didn't know Oyster had moved all it's line to twin rudders, had I known I would not have arranged to do the review. I avoided HR for that very reason. Several people on here think I ambushed Oyster but nothing could be further from the truth, I would left them out as I did HR and focused on more suitable boats for long term cruising. People get very defensive when you point out deficiencies in boats they like or own, I'm not sure why exactly. Tim probably though he was being clever suggesting I might be jealous after being out run by Oysters! Why would I be upset by that? It's a much faster boat than a Han Christian so of course they would overtake us! If everybody got to grips with the fact there is no one boat that is good for everything then people might be more open to realising that everything is a compromise and you make your choices depending on what you want your boat for.
@@svfairisle My understanding that the 575 you reviewed is a different configuration and that most 575's are fully skegged single rudder. I know however the next iteration of Oyster (595, 565, 495)are all double-ruddered.
@@bartynz8486 Yes that’s right, I actually got on the 575 thinking it was single ruddered, had I known I would have given it a miss.
Totally agree on the twin rudders giving more interior space vs. safety - a trade off I would not wanna make on a blue water boat. Also Amel has the twins for the same reason 👎. Thanks for sharing!
This guy has all the answers, not very assuring
..... Everything you might me concerned about is 'not a problem' 🥴
😀👍👍❤
I won't be parting with someone else's £1.2M for a boat with twin collapsible rudders ( I know I've haven't you yet honey, but I'm being careful already) the guy was full of poop once on deck.
Sorry to hear of your loss Steve, tough times. Best wishes from Scotland.
oysters so old fashioned and not in a good way. cruisers want visibility while under way for one thing, they need a raised pilothouse option. not a pretend blue water Bimini, look at moody, orion 49, and every catamaran out there. socializing and shite weather helming. a raised keel option, theyre learning.
High C.G... Double this, double that.
Still no new inventions.
Another prime example of toy boats for rich kids.
salesman knows bugger all about the boat
Why don’t you tell your viewers the connection you have with Kraken and perhaps that’s the reason you try put down other builders. Lost all respect, sorry!
We have been very clear we have absolutely NO connection with Kraken, it seems you might have some sort of interest in Oyster though!
@@svfairisle reading the other comments it seems I’m not alone in my thinking. Would suggest taking down this post as not doing you or Kraken any favours!
@@davidnichols195 It's video that shows Oyster are no longer in the game of making ocean going boats. They were always teetering on the edge of luxury over ability I suppose but in their day they made good boats. When I set out to make this video I thought it would be placing Oyster up there with the boats that one might consider buying as an offshore cruising boat. This video proves that is not the case, so in that respect if I was only interested in showing true blue-water boats I should take it down. But I think it does a good job of showcasing the difference between boat builders who are trying to make off shore boats and those that are just chasing the easy quick sales in marina queens, so I certainly wont be taking it down!
Lost for words…..but thankfully this is just your opinion and taken from someone who sails an old school yacht and clearly doesn’t like or appreciate new design features. Each to their own but clearly you are stuck in your ways. The oyster, contest and HR for that matter use many of the same features and all are very competent and capable blue water sailors.
@@davidnichols195 Agree, see my comment below.