Sharpening discussion - edge longevity and carbide tear out.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มี.ค. 2019
- This video discusses some finer points of knife sharpening. The video touches base on edge longevity testing that I’ve done, and has a focus on the phenomenon of carbide tear out. The video also takes a look at the Spyderco Native in S90V/CPM 154 and documents a sharpening of the knife.
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Always a pleasure seeing a Michael Christy video in my subscription folder. I know I'm going to get some sharpening enlightenment when I see it. 👍
I flipped when I saw the video and it was 12 at night
Bro, you're attention to detail is noted and greatly appreciated. Please keep posting vids like this, your helping bridge the gap from seeing sharpening as mundane task to viewing it as an artform that can only be appreciated if fully understood. Solid work.
livefire81 thank you, brother.
the native just has perfect proportions. its a beautiful knife.
i have the fluted titanium model but i came very close to buying the cf/S90V model.
seeing yours makes me wish i had!
hold 'er Newt, shes rearin' ? They’re both very good.
Michael,. I carry good steel. ZDP 189 can go months and months with just an occasional stropping. Most of the heaviest cutting I do is with a utility blade. My EDC blade is used occasionally for plastic straps and cardboard when the task is unexpected. I keep the blade shaving sharp. I like it to be ready to go when needed. I appreciate your more diligent use and testing. I am thinking about leaving the utility blade on the side just to see what the better blades can do in a more regular hard use role. Thanks for greatly helping me to understand sharpening and edge retention on a deeper level. 😎👍
Man, this is very valuable information and I can understand how this phenomenon is logical.. thank you for your perseverance, you just gave us info that can save us a lot of sharpening and thus our blades! 👍
I would love to see a sharpening 101 tutorial by Michael. My best purchase by far in learning to sharpen was a $25 Chef's knife that I was willing to dull on a brick. Cheap knife, good stone - at least for learning to sharpen.
You are a very talented knife sharpener and a general expert in pocket knives. Thanks for sharing sir.
Thank you for commenting you beautiful fuck!👍👌😂
Mick Coyne thank you.
Awesome video Mike! Thanks for your efforts and sharing your knowledge /ability.
Great vid! Something about that paticular native is awesome...I love mine
Nice video. Lots of information
Ive learned alot from your videos. Thank you
Drew L Michael deserves a lot of respect for the stuff he is doing
@@hidude2124 I agree 100%
Drew L thank you.
@@michaelchristy4982 your welcome!
Hey Michael been a while. Just wanted to let you know that I got the NEW Venev diamond water stones. The new grits with twice the diamonds and the brand new OCB 800/1200. The other 2(4) double sided stones are The 80/150 and 240/400. They are wayyy better than the original Venev ones. They cut awesome and finish is so.much better. And then the OCB 800/1200...holy crap. Its like the polishing power of the spyderco UF times 5 but with minimal burr and so easy to get rid of the burr. It polishes in seconds after going through the other 4 grits and makes little to no burr unless your trying to and for the first time ever I come off the stones with no burr to the naked eye and laser sharp. And an insane mirror. They are the Fepa F scale too obv. But just a quick strop and amazing. You gotta try them out. I think the OCB 800/1200 comes back in stock in 2 weeks and the others are on Amazon or gritomatic. You have to try them out!!
NEED MORE Michael Christy VIDEOS!!!
Long term updates on previously reviewed knives, update on any new stones, current progressions you've been using, current edc rotation, how's the sharpening business going, random musings on steel or abrasives, anything!
Maybe you want to share you secret strop leather? You know if people know the materials you're using it doesn't mean they will be able to replicate your results!
Damn you’ve sharpened the shit out of that mantra
blackhawkninjabeast isn’t that the truth.
The explanation does make sense to me as far as using a course alox would hide the tear out and you would see it more with extra fine loose abrasive stones. The bottom line is that there is the right stone for certain steels. As far as a whittling edge lasting a long time, I believe you especially stropping it back. People are missing the statement that you are stropping to bring it back. I personally can’t get my fine edges to last but I’m also still learning to sharpen. I’m decent but still not where I want to be. It’s easy to get a awesome even bevel with the course stones but switching to finer stones is the tricky part for me.
Excellent
Nick Shabazz said something that made sense. A knife that you don't carry and use is just a rusty piece of metal. To your point, I agree. The edge must be actually useful, not just able to do "magic tricks". Sure, just about any blade can be made shaving sharp, but only the right steel, with the right care, can serve you when it matters.
Another great video from "Dr. Sharp". Thanks....
I need doctor sharp to check my eyes because I don’t believe my eyes
EverydayPatriot thank you.
always enjoy your videos, thanks!
Can’t agree more
bwVids thank you.
New sub here. Your ability to quantify results is next level. Great to listen to you while sharpening my knives. Great work bud.
veeDubbinit2 thanks. Glad you like the channel.
Interesting video .
That's one hell of an edge...
Hangfire-13 thanks buddy.
Nice video Michael! I enjoyed it! like this version of the Native as well!!
Travis Vanwey thank you Travis.
Awesome video! Thanks for doing all this work and explaining these concepts. I've asked you questions about this topic in Edge Snobs and I feel like you hesitated to answer probably because you wanted to do more testing. I was also wondering why I haven't seen any vids from you in a while but I guess you were doing all this work. Thanks again!
Holy fuck he actually did it
Yeah I know right?
You? Ridiculous standard? Nah....lol...great video, man! Loved hearing your take on this subject. I'm with you 100% on the fatigue issue. I had exactly the problem you talked about. I saw you discuss it in an earlier video and applied your logic in my sharpening. From my non quantified perspective, it really does make a difference when you remove that fatigued steel.
Top Job MC!!!
Master chief of knife sharpening
@@hidude2124 He Blows me Right Outta The Water :-)))
Mark Anthony Stringfellow thank you.
@@michaelchristy4982 Welcome :-)))
Love the native but honestly hate the action of the lightweight. I need to pick up one with different materials
Man my 2 natives has FANTASTIC ACTION for a back lock . So good in fact I’d be afraid to buy one that’s not lightweight lol
Michael can you possibly explain something to me? The problem I have is that I will get a knife of significant metal XHP, Zpd189 sharpening to hair whittling. Then I will set them down or carry in my pocket etc . I cut nothing else but check the edge on a hair (got alittle obsessed) and find it won't whittle hair anymore. All knifes are spyderco. Is it the movement of my pocket and what not that dulls the edge or? Sometimes they strop back sometimes not. Was thinking maybe a little rust forms on the edge. I don't know but maybe you do. Just wanting a logical perspective. Thank you
Just throwing this out: I've heard some talk about "invisible corrosion" on edges serving to mysteriously dull them without apparent cause. I wonder whether that's true, and what the impact is on how we judge what's really going on with our edges. An interesting experiment might be doing regular oiling on problem edges tp see what the result is. I mention this to you because you're unquestionably the one person on youtube who is most sensitive to edge conditions, lol. BTW, the absolute best anti-corrosion oil, IMO, is Corrosion X. Among their products the "Marine" version would probably offer the maximum protectiveness for such a study. Please keep up your great videos!
Interesting. Your bringing a complex subject to the table which looks very intricate which brings controversy. Regardless, thanks for commenting and the test would be something new.
GetMeThere1 if I had to guess, I would say there’s probably not anything there with the corrosion idea. This is why. I did a test once to see if simply carrying a knife would cause it to dull from corrosion. The steel was S30V. I took two knives in S30V. Tested them both and found they gave the same results. Then I resharpened them, and set one in a room that was heat and moisture controlled. The other I carried on me everywhere, but didn’t use. It was on me through sweating, being outside in the rain, etc. After 30 days, I retested both knives. They still showed the same performance as the first test.
@@michaelchristy4982 Good to know. Certainly, though, "non-stainless" knives could still be subject to that problem, no? S30V and S90V would be expected to have moderate corrosion resistance, right? One might get a different result with, say, M4.
GetMeThere1 yes, or even worse, something like 52100. However, in those cases, the corrosion would be visible.
Can't it be argued that pushing an edge to hair whittling sharp is actually detrimental to these edges longevity? There has to be "too sharp" when we're talking about knives that are meant to be used, especially EDC knives .
TheOneAndOnlySame lol, no, there’s not a too sharp. There can be too low of an edge angle, causing instability on the apex or even on the edge bevel. But these knives are typically sharpened at 30 inclusive by me, which is not a problem.
Michael. I heard that Spyderco UF ceramic is not harder than Vanadium carbide. How do yo think about it? And how about Spyderco medium ceramic stone?
Sharpco knives I did a video where I tested to see if the UF would make a difference in use. It showed no negative effect.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thank you Michael. But I can't find that video. Could you reply the link please?
Sharpco knives th-cam.com/video/XmvtbYtQYSo/w-d-xo.html
Love to see you come out with new videos man! I think we all learn alot from you, your vids are like the gospel lol!! Thanx alot man, always appreciate your time and efforts. Been watching super steel Steve a little bit as well... this whole carbide tear out drives me crazy, I'm not sure if that's what I'm doing wrong on my s110v, I'm a decent sharpener and I have a wicked edge, but I CAN NOT get a good sticky edge or hair whittling edge on my s110v.. could I be tearing out carbide, or do I just not know what the fuk I'm doing? It gets fairly sharp, but doesn't feel sharp if that makes any sense... I would like to see you revisit s110v in another vid. Thanx again for the awesome video
First rewatch his old ones. I couldn’t see him mentioning anything new. Use diamond, make the burr fucking tiny, and strop it off. You got this... s110v is hard. Lastly be careful when watching other testers. As banter247 says perfectly, take it as a data point. Michael explains the differences in other testing.
And he mentioned a technique a while back , not sure if he still does it but I sure do now: which is finishing on the ultra fine making 2 whole rounds on it. So ya that’s one side to bur flip it over other side to burr, now again flip it over to burr and final flip to burr for grand total of 2 full rotations flipping the burr from side to side before your strops or diamond laps...when I do that and I make sure the angle is correct and not using too much pressure making sure my stone is providing feedback and not too caked with steel I notice the edge come up to hair whittling levels ...even before strops sometimes... so recap : it’s just ultra coarse diamond then fine diamond then Spyderco uf 2 full rotations then strops..and I’ve noticed the Kenneth Schwartz poly Di is the ULTIMATE spray by FAR... as long as you get At least 1 bottle of KS poly di (any micron; whatever’s available, it’s spendy but oh so worth it) that should push you over ...
Shane miller S110V is a difficult steel to bring to a high sharpness. Pay a lot of attention to you apex formation. That’s probably the issue.
Michael great video as usual. One comment, you occasionally mention products, two come to mind, the gritomatic 1x6 diamond bonded stones and I think a Ken shwartz 2 or 3000 diamond stone, that can’t be found anywhere. Could you include a little more information about some of these off the shelf, or difficult to find items.
I wouldn’t mind seeing you speaking once in a while.
Steven Lachance Gritomatic products are available on Gritomatics website, Gritomatic.com
Ken Schwartz 3K diamond plate is available from Ken Schwartz. He can be found on FB.
I don't see any videos where you talk about sharpening S30V. I carry a Paramilitary 2 in S30V and can't get the edge retention I think the steel is capable of. I use the wicked edge sharpening system and sharpen the edge at 32 inclusive or 16 degrees on each side. These are the stones I use. I draw a burrito with the 400 grit and then again with 600 grit diamond. Then I go to the 800/1000 grit diamond stones. After that I use Spyderco ceramic stones that are 1.5 micron and .5 micron. Then I start stropping with balsa wood with 5 micron and 3.5 micron diamond paste. Then to finish it up I use leather strops with the same 5 micron and 3.5 micron diamond paste. The edge is hair widdling sharp but it doesn't hold that really sharp edge for long. I mainly just cut rope and plastic zip ties every now and then. Do you think the combination of stones I am using is good for sharpening S30V? Thanks for your time in advance
Chris Walker well, the ratings you gave for the Spyderco stones are wrong. Spyderco doesn’t have stones that fine (if they do, I need to go shopping). But try only using the finest of the ceramic stones, and leave the balsa strops out. See if you get a more aggressive edge for the rope and zip ties you’re dealing with.
The micro fine ceramics are the same stone that Coorstek makes for Spyderco, it's the medium and the fine. I've used the Wicked Edge and I can say that it is extremely easy to over strop your edge especially if you don't make the angle a few degrees more acute than what you initially sharpened at.
Anthony Waldrep so they’re the Wicked Edge ceramics. I believe they’re listed with a different rating then the Spyderco Stones. I was thinking of buying them once, but got distracted and lost sight of them.
@@michaelchristy4982 Yes, they're the same as the Spyderco Medium and Fine. Clay Allison said that he asked Coorstek to give them a micron rating and that was their conclusion. I don't remember the specifics of the post but I believe it was on the Wicked Edge forum. I believe the grand unified grit chart already had the closest micron rating for them. The Spyderco Ultra Fine is rated at 3 micron and I would agree with that. The finish is spectacular for the price of that stone
Anthony Waldrep I’m not saying that the Wicked Edge Stones aren’t down to .5 to 1.5 micron. I’m saying the Spyderco UF is around 3 micron. But I agree, I think the price is great for the stone.
How are the Wicked Edge ceramics in your opinion?
What about the possibility that instead of carbide tear out, the softer stones actually dull the carbides? This seems plausible based on your cut test after sharpening with alumina based stones followed by the diamonds.
Anthony Waldrep that’s a fine idea. What I’m noting is a negative effect from the alumina stones in comparison to using diamond. Whether that’s from tear out or some other effect of the alumina.
Hi Michael, greetings from Mexico. I enjoy and learn from eachand every one of your videos. Gotta question...How do you know which is the appropriate compound and sharpening stones for your steels?
Israel Ducoing I look at the composition of the steel and consider which abrasive I should use. Beyond that, I decide based on how I want the edge to turn out.
@@michaelchristy4982 Could you perhaps make a video where you could give more examples and how we can go about sorting this point out for ourselves please.
Michael have you tried LC200N? Some impressive stuff takes an amazing edge and holds it while being stainless in a literal sense. I bought the Caribbean awhile ago and I've used it plenty, initially i thought it looked goofy and thats what kept me from buying it but curiosity won and im digging it, and to my surprise some friends and co-workers though it was the best looking knife i have 💁🏻♂️ lol ! It's like an fusion between para2 and tenacious, i would highly recommend it.
Oozy9Millimeetah I have not tried LC200N, but I’d like to at some point.
You’re a genius. Question: my Sharpmaker isn’t getting me where I want to be. I’m ridiculous and need a razor sharp blade. Everyday. Not kidding. So, do I need to get a strop or use Ultrafine rods. Thanks!
No matter what steel or knife or how it was sharpened, it loses hair shaving sharpness quite fast as soon as you start cutting into something properly with force. That fine very outer edge rounds off just a little. I think what you are describing is very light cutting with very little weight or force behind it.
There is a very fine line between what you do and what I do in sharpening, but a world of difference 😂
Keep up with it. It will come with time as long as you enjoy sharpening. Think of it this way, you sharpen because you like it and getting good is a side effect
So no matter what steel if you use diamond Stones you should be good correct?
osmosis 01 yes
What knife is that? It’s really sharp looking. Looks like a native 5 but I can’t find that model. Awesome vid by the way
please .i d like to understrand more on the fatigued steel phenomenon creating more related issues
I’d look it up. It’s a complex subject. Look up cliff stamp, and call ken Schwartz. You need some of his compound anyways
@@hidude2124 ty i will do that
Sorry if i missed this but at what micron rating would you have to sharpen to with alumina based abrasives to experience carbide tearout?
Tim Corrin the idea is, at least taking the edge to 1-3 micron. I found my results with a very refined edge. More refined then what you get from a 3 micron diamond plate.
I follow your sharpening progression with DMT's to the EF and then on to the Spyderco Fine followed by the Ultra Fine. After that progression I've been using a Sigma 6k and then a Suehiro 10k for finishing. Should I just stop at the Spyderco UF since both the Sigma and Suehiro are alumina based stones?
Anthony Waldrep try it and see how the edge feels. Then see how it holds up in carry.
Are you stropping?
@@michaelchristy4982 I don't normally strop because my technique is not good. I sharpened 14C28N and CPM20CV with both the Sigma 6k and Suehiro 10k as finishing stones. Both edges have the same bite to them. I used silcone carbide stones up to 1200 grit on the Sandvik and up to the DMT Extra Fine on 20CV before using the Spyderco stones. Silicone carbide is reportedly good for high carbide steels as well and I'll test those out on the next knife I sharpen that has a high carbide content.
Had to grab 154/S90V native 5 for work after watching this in the morning 🤗 i used to sharpen steels like M4 and have tried to sharpen steels like k390 S90V and others where my finishing stones where Spyderco stones, sharp they were yes! But definitely not sticky sharp, like after diamonds. In the matter of carbide tear out count me in as a believer 🙏, and besides what's the point of not using diamonds on high vanadium steels??
I agree. Glad your sharpening. Keep with it and SPREAD DA LOVE!😂👍
Oozy9Millimeetah it’s a really solid knife. I’m sure you’ll be impressed.
How tf ?
Can you make a video using edge sharpness testers like edge on up PT50A to quantify the sharpness you get from different steel,different angles,different grit(down to 5 million grit)?I want to do the tests my self some day but I don't think I am experienced enough to get the best out of those conditions.Thanks.
I wonder how much improvement can the 3nm pcd spray make to the sharpness of the edge.
Brian I don’t have those sharpness testers. I hear they’re expensive.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thanks for reply.The PT50A is $259,if you are interested in doing those tests maybe I can contribute a little for you to get one.
I believe the quicker you can get your edge the healthier the edge will be !! When I came into the straight razor world the older guys would say, don't use any stone under a 1K to start (unless there was a lot of damage obviously) because the scratches would be too deep, and testing out that therory myself (because i learned not to believe anything unless i see it with my own eyes) I've learned that was a lot of BS !! So with the countless hours testing and trying, I've found the quicker you can get to that apex the healthier and longer that edge would last ! I think just like belt sanding a blade sharp heats up the steel and weakens it !! The longer you spend on the stones, the worse off it is for the steel !! And the guys having problems with Maxamet, using aluminium based stones instead of diamond stones, same concept !! Apex that edge as quickly as you can, there will be less stress on the steel !! Now off to test more knife sharpening, because again, I must see it for myself !! Getting into knife sharpening has made it really fun again for me !! Great videos Bro
Glad your sharpening. Keep with it and maybe post your results sometime. The knifesharpening community is never big enough
I agree with this sentiment, but it's important to note that it isn't about time, but the efficiency of the cut. Just like an extremely sharp knife cutting paper, the paper isn't damaged. But a dull knife cutting paper damages the paper. If the abrasive is cutting the steel efficiently, there will be less damage to the steel.
What was the contention with Steve exactly?
I've seen quite a few of your videos and enjoyed them very much, have been subscribed for probably 10 months I think. I'm fairly new to the knife world and a beginner in free hand sharpening. I'm able to get a knife to shave hair, it doesn't shave it quite well do I wouldn't call it razor sharp. Currently using King Japanese whetstones on my PM2 in s30v. In your opinion is that the proper abrasive for S30v or any powdered modern steel in general? Any advice is greatly appreciated, thank you.
I would use a different stone, but if you’re enjoying it and getting a good enough result for you, then keep using it. You could try adding in a finishing stone, or try something new if you want a different result. You could also try adding in a strop. The knivesplus strop block is an inexpensive way to try out a strop.
@@michaelchristy4982 I think I'll take your advice and get different stones. Probably some DMT diamond plates. I'm for sure going to get more powdered high end steels so that will probably make my life easier. Thank you for the input, much appreciated.
Hi Michael, Great video. Thanks. Any reason that you are stroping more at 4um & 1um regime/habit, instead of going down to 0.25um/0.1um? Noticed it over the last few month's videos.
4 micron is to deburr and 1 micron is really nice for finishing. It could have to also do with how he gets his edge to last so long. Maybe the smaller compounds frail the edge? Idk. Great question though
Kevin Chen sometimes with my daily carry I go down below 1 mic, but getting to at least 1 mic is a must. I only used 4 and 1 for the test because I could match it with alumina.
And I was using 4 and 1 for the edge longevity testing over the last few months to keep things simple.
Michael, thanks for the info.
I'm using Shapton waterstones (glass backing) . Will that cause carbide tearout on S30V?
amo757 I’ve found a better edge going a different route, but if you’re getting the results you want and enjoying yourself, go with it.
Thank you for the reply.
Seems like when I don’t get the results I want the strop is dirty or 5he stones needs a s rub.. what are your thoughts? When do you clean the strop?
Matthew Forrest I’m not michael, but I’ve found that reloading your strop is important. If the strop is too loaded, the metal filings won’t cut the burr but fold it. Steel covers the abrasive and prevents cutting. That’s why you put water on waterstones, oil on oilstones, and reload or throw away strops
Matthew Forrest keeping your strops relatively clean and reloading fresh abrasive can be important, and I clean my alumina stones off for every sharpening.
Hello Michael, I´m Jose from Barcelona and you blow my mind with your videos, I really enjoy watching your videos. I have a question, I want to buy a military but I´m not sure in which steel, which one you recommend me?? Really thanks a lotfor your videos, keep the good job.
jose mc thank you. I’m glad you like the videos.
You should get which ever Military best suits your needs. There are many great options. The one I prefer is the S90V/CF model, but you should pick the one that you want.
@@michaelchristy4982 Hi Michael, thanks for your quick response..Impossible for the moment find the military in s90v/cf here in Spain and Europe, I will go for the cpm s30v or s110v, wich steel you like more??..Thanks again Michael, and just wanna tell you that watching your videos is a kind of meditation to me, your voice, the way you explain, the sharpeninng etc..Big thanks!!
jose mc S110V is lower toughness, but better edge retention, and much harder to sharpen. S30V is better toughness, less edge retention and much easier to sharpen. The choice is yours.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thanks again Michael!!
@@michaelchristy4982 Hi Michael, I founf a military in cf s90v for 320 euros including shipping, what you think about the price? another thing you told me cf or cf/ti? thanks again master!!
Hey Michael do you have any tips for keeping an even bevel when freehand sharpening? I’m practicing but I can’t seem to keep it even to the tip.
Try getting plastic angle guides and sharpening on a crap knife. keep your bevels flat and lock your wrist. No fast motion. You will find your sharpness will increase phenomenally.
Scot S it takes a lot of practice. If the blade curves back towards the tip, try lifting the knife.
In my experience there is a unique feeling when the bevel glides across the stone. If the sharpening angle is too steep or too shallow it doesnt feel right.
Joseph Allen if you work at different angles quite a bit, it can get confusing.
@@michaelchristy4982 Not really sure what you mean. I started sharpening about 4 years ago but dont really do it all that often. Initially i had trouble seeing the correct angle but realized that when the angle was correct i could feel it better than i could see it. So ive sharpened by feeling pretty much since i started. It has worked for all the knives i have and they are a variety of angles. I should say that i have never had a problem maintaining the same angle during sharpening, only had a problem getting the correct angle to begin with. Perhaps i misunderstood the OP's question.
I'm curious what happens if you sharpen with aluminum oxide stones and then strop with Diamonds.
Sharpco knives why? What result would you be looking for and testing for what?
Hi Dude It would tell whether finishing with diamonds would overcome the “bad” effects of AO?
cbwx34 interesting. That would be an interesting test. If I were to GUESS the results, they would vary as to the amount and size abrasive used when stropping.
That's basically what I do most times do to lack of good diamond stones....I sharpen with alumina and use diamond loaded strops......I get hair whittling edges like Michael does....but I suppose my edges aren't lasting as Long as they could....m
Due to the carbide tear out......
Would 3M wet or dry sandpaper with silicon carbide abrasive be good enough to sharpen steels with high Vanadium content?
The silicon carbide is harder than alumina but not as hard as vanadium carbide.
I actually totally agree with you with you. It's wierd because any time I try to o explain this people think I'm speaking Chinese or they think I'm full of shit lmao. It's good to see other people on the same page.
Hey Mike, when you said in the beginning that with some steels you went weeks with a hair whittling edge, was that without any stropping at all or did you have to strop in between to maintain the hair whittling edge?
corismsyn that was with stropping.
@@michaelchristy4982 how long until you needed to strop?
corismsyn I do it periodically if I’m carrying a knife. I don’t really keep track of it.
@@michaelchristy4982 ok thanks.
Michael, how do you think about replacing DMT medium extra fine with Spyderco Fine ceramic stone?
Sharpco knives they’re very different. The Spyderco fine wouldn’t stand as a replacement for the MEF for me.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thank you very much Michael.
So if carbide tear out can be tested only at fine grits that means that we can sharpen on course stones and can't experience carbide tear out?So the solution is to sharpen on course stones?
CB metalworks yeah in a sense. I must point out we are only looking at edge retention here, simply if you use lesser abrasives, it will be harder to sharpen, take more time, and the edge will not come up as nice. Simply by avoiding advanced abrasives you limit your capabilities
@@hidude2124 but if the carbides are to small to affect edge retention they are too small to make an noticeably affect the sharpening.
@@hidude2124 if you are referring to alumina vs diamond sharpening. Diamond will always be faster on any steel.
@@touchMelilbro 👊👊👊
I've got diamond compounds down to 0.1u, diamond stones, and still can't go anywhere near your results. Don't know how you do it.
Angle consistency. Imagine what your apex looks like. One high stroke even from a .1 strop would kill the edge.
When I say kill the edge I speak relatively. Basically it’s angle consistency IF I WERE TO GUESS. Knife sharpening issues from one person to another can be a grey area
@@hidude2124 you are most probably right. What I often find myself doing is applying too much pressure, especially while stropping, which probably ends up apexing and "rounding" the edge
valebliz yeah. Also reload your strop often
valebliz he may be more consistent then you skill not tools
I have seen you use the dmt pocket folders, would they be a safe bet for most all super steels ? Which ones would you recommend ? Great video
D T he did a video on it...
Hi Dude which one thanks ?
D T nothing against you, but for future preference, just look it up. I’ve heard sharpeners don’t like being “fucking mailboys”. Just letting you know from a homie to another
Hi Dude 👍 smile
D T there is a video on the channel about pocket stones. The DMT pocket sharpeners will work fine on super steels.
What progression did you use while sharpening al ox and diamond? Interesting that you and Steve got absolutely different results on the same fucking steel s 90v from spyderco
He specified the progression in detail in the video. He also explained why he would get different results from other testers.
don0giorgio he progression is listed in type in the video.
@@michaelchristy4982 Hey Michael, thanks man, havent noticed it! So why do you think you got totally different resulst then SuperSteelSteve on s90v? Cheers!
Michael, have you tested hrc on this marvelous para 3 in 204p? Maybe the ht this exclusive at higher hrc, like 61-62 instead of usual 58-60?
That’s an option but it’s his sharpening routines that causes the edge longevity. That said hrc inconsistencies could be a factor
@@hidude2124 lets watch Michael do the sharpening from start to finish livestream, then cardboard test. SuperSteelSteve redone his test live and confurmed his result
don0giorgio i would totally watch that, but he has no obligation to prove his findings. He doesn’t need our approval. He is already going out of his way to post this. I think it’s inevitable that he will show a start to finish video of him proving this concept, but when he has such a vary in numbers and results with 20 to 90 feet of cardboard, he has to figure out those variables before he goes out and makes this public
@@hidude2124Totally disagree with you. People need approval man. But when they have a youtube channel they need a fucking lot of it. Michael Christie needs our approval, otherwise he would be whittling hair all day long by himself.
don0giorgio I 100% respect your opinion
At what angle would you sharpen s35vn
Silver Seto Michael usually sharpens at most knives at 15 DPS but your use determines the angle you will prefer.
Silver Seto 30 inclusive is fine for S35VN.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thanks guys, and you don't put a microbevel on it right?
Silver Seto no micro bevels for me.
@@michaelchristy4982 Thanks, I've been sharpening these higher vanadium steels at about 34 inclusive and don't seem to get the kind of durability you are getting at 30 inclusive. I am using the edgepro aluminum oxide stones, so may be that is contributing to this. But I'm sure my sharpening basics needs some work too.
Thanks again, will continue to comb your channel.
Are we having an intervention with you right now? Lol . I’ve got the itch too.
what did you end up paying for the knife?
themittymak I don’t remember. I think $180
I'm not gonna pretend I have done nearly as much testing as you but I have been obsessively sharpening knives for nearly three decades. I've tried many sharpening gadgets and different stones. I use DMT stones and have used the Spyderco ultra fine. I use Kenneth Schwartz PDP sprays on very thin hard leather strips. I've tried different woods but still prefer leather. I know you use a similar progression but where my sharpening differs is I no longer use the Spyderco stone. I now use a progression of dimond lapping films on glass I had cut locally. I can't speak to your ideas about carbide tear out. That subject is above me but I think you are spot on about edge fatigue. I've found that stones that are slow to remove material seem to fatigue the edge or for whatever reason the knife just doesn't hold an edge as well as a dimond progression from start to finish. After making the switch to the dimond lapping films I noticed that I wasn't having to sharpen my knives as often. It wasn't something I noticed right away as I have many knives in rotation. I came to the conclusion that the less time spent on each stage of sharpening using the fastest cutting method for each step gave the best results. I use a full progression of DMT stones from extra course to extra extra fine than a full progression of the films on glass. Finishing on two strops. The first is leather with .025 and than .005. I don't have the desire to do the testing but I am curious what you might experience if you replaced the Spyderco ultra fine with dimond lapping films. I very much enjoy your videos and I think you are on the "cutting edge" of sharpening.😁
Thanks,
Jon
WOW, I read this after writing what I wrote above !! The quicker, less time you spend on the stones, the better off for the steel is exactly my findings as well !!
@@hidude2124 it's not about a sharper edge. It's like what Mike was talking about a "healthier edge" or edge retention.
tacticalmallninja 187 they correlate. You can’t get a knife to whittle hair for 7 days if it couldn’t whittle hair in the first place. To my knowledge there is no “healthy” working edge. It’s only hair whittling
@@hidude2124 obviously I'm talking about hair whittling edges not working edges. When my knives no longer whittle hair I sharpen them.
@@hidude2124 using the films instead of the Spyderco stone I see faster removal of material. There is more to it than just speed though. Staying on the angle you set with the lower grit stones becomes more important as you move up in grit levels. Not digging in when stroping. Basically minimizing the amount of direct pressure on the apex but spreading the pressure across the entire secondary bevel.
Where do u get the testing hair from?
Pretty sure he tells you about 4:50 in the video...
@@DreW.L_ duh... i wanted to here him say it again. I just thought it was funny is all lol. I always wondered lol
@@00YahSun lol this was the first time I've heard it myself. I was so surprised I had to tell you..lol...my bad
Mos Matic Yup, it’s from the wife.
His back
Carbide tear out does not occur when sharpening with abrasive softer than carbide. Please don’t quote Cliff Stamp from 2013 when in 2017 he confirmed there is no evidence of carbide tear out on the micron level
There are conclusive pictures of carbide tear out one Google search away. It certainly exists. BUT, in my opinion the effects of it are exaggerated, especially on production knives used by 99% of knife sharpeners. I think diamonds are better because they cut better and require far fewer passes (both on stones and strops) thus fatiguing the steel within the apex considerably less. There are always several factors at play, so conclusions involving only one factor are inherently flawed.
My wife has super thin hair hard to whittle. Sometimes I'll find a thicker one thats easier.
Surprised he has so much hair on his arms
Dam, that 204p stayed fine that long! Steels made for dental instruments bits made to take a high finnish, makes sense I guess. I've been dreaming Spyderco makes that same Native model with 52100, v-toku2 lam, cru, or 4v. Call it the Native Woodsman!
K Grimm CruWear would be interesting.
Appreciate the knowledge as always, but I'm gonna need you to tell me the secret to your 204P haha. If I can get my PM2 to maintain an edge like that it'll never leave my pocket!
Try minimizing your burr before strops. Thats what I’ve heard in his videos at least. You Must minimize the burr as much as you can then fully remove it without loosing bite
Ryan H I’m trying to tell myself the secret of the 204P PM3. That thing just stays sharp.
@@michaelchristy4982 Maybe a 204P Optimal Edge video in the future? Do you still have the Southard? I might could lend a 204P PM2 "for science" if it comes back with that edge hahaha
Sharp first, then pretty.
Carbides aren't "tearing out" that simply does not happen. What does happen is carbides weaken, rupture and break rather than being cut cleanly. You have the right general idea, but you're stuck on this idea of tearout. You're also right, vanadium carbide rich steels don't play nice with alumina abrasives beyond a certain grit. At the course grits, it doesn't matter that much. I sometimes use course alumina stones as basically 1k equivalent stones for 10v class steels. No issues. Using say a 400 chosera to cut your 10v the way you would normally use a 1k. The abrasive isn't fine enough, nor the apex created, for it to matter. Once you get down to that sub 2 digit micron level on the abrasives, in terms of a stone, because it's different for a strop, that's when I've noticed it becomes relevant. Not sure what you're trying to prove with the whole alumina thing. Yeah, it's known and understood, alumina isn't cutting vanadium carbides and doesn't work well for steels that have a lot of it. You know what does work? Silicon carbide. Diamonds. CBN. Have a field day.
Michael, you should watch supersteelsteve latest vid. He used aluminum oxide and diamond stones/strop solution on s90v. The same result man. It doesnt fucking matter. But sure diamonds will do the job faster.
? I think he said it does make a difference. almost a 75% increase in edge retention on the test with the s90v test using diamond.
@@crf450rbulletdavid9 7,5%, not 75%)))
don0giorgio when I mentioned the percentage I estimated 75% in my head. How did you get 5-7%, I’m kind of curious? Besides that there’s a difference using certain abrasives in this test.
@@crf450rbulletdavid9 th-cam.com/video/2E_VnGh3bXg/w-d-xo.html
A few % different results 3 micron finish diamond vs al ox
@@crf450rbulletdavid9 hey man,
In my test there was a 2% difference in edge retention between the 2 abrasives.
Michael - I can’t believe it took you until NOW to realize that, “it’s a little ridiculous” to keep your knife at a hair whittling edge. It’s not even just “a little ridiculous”, it’s honestly fucking stupid (no offense). Seriously, what in world would you possibly need your knife hair whittling sharp for? I mean, are you performing castrations on gnats? Are you using your pocket knife to conduct eye surgery? It’s just stupid. You’re carrying a pocket knife that was designed for utility tasks. The moment that knife touches cardboard, zip ties, rope, or any one of a hundred other things people call upon their daily carry knives to cut, you’ve knocked that edge down from hair whittling to a working edge. So in the end, it’s just a complete waste of time and completely impractical. There is simply no legitimate justification as to why someone would “need” their knife hair whittling sharp.... There is no task that you would possibly need to ever perform with that knife that would “require” the edge be THAT sharp. It’s just stupid.
That being said, if your doing it simply to test your skills as a sharpener, or see how sharp that particular steel will get in order to satisfy your own curiousity, then I get it; I do! But outside of what is essentially just bragging rights, there is absolutely no practical reason to carry a utility folder that is hair whittling sharp. It’s just counterproductive. I honestly laughed when you said that you were essentially so snobby about your knives that if they didn’t strop back to hair whittling, you wouldn’t carry it... C’mon dude.... I mean, wow.... I think you gotta step back and reevaluate what pocket knives are meant for. Just saying.
Dan Schwemin Jr He could be doing this for edge retention. High carbide steels blunt by micro fractures and working edge is not that sharp. When you have high carbide steel sharpened to hair whittling level the carbides are actual formed sharpened not just steel matrix and that has greater edge retention. So it is definitely not stupid to have knife sharpened to that level.
It is stupid because there is no practical reason to ever need a knife that sharp. You will lose that edge the moment you put that knife to work. It's a pocket knife, not a straight razor. Your completely missing the point. Your focused way too much on the steel and are losing sight of the fact that it's still a fucking pocket knife. It's used for utility, not shaving.
And for the record high carbide steels DO NOT perform better with high polishes and hair whittling edges. They perform better with low grit finishes. BBB, Supersteel Steve, and Cedric & ada have all already touched upon this. Your buying high carbide steels for the carbide. They are designed to tear out during use and provide an aggressive working edge. That is how they are designed to work. Not unlike how a Japanese water stone is designed to shed grit to expose fresh grit and cut aggressively. High carbide steels were not designed for high polish and super high grit finishes. You defeating the entire purpose of having a carbide rich steel.
durrrr hair whittling durrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Holden Craig is that it? Is that all you’ve got?
Need to take less vitamins bro. I think you got hair too thick. Lol.
1st
chris pregent god fucking damit. Respect
@@hidude2124 lol thank you
7 pm EST. SuperSteel Steve is gonna do it again on a live feed🤔
John M. Runyon and?
Michael Christy I was just letting you know in case you weren’t aware. No other reason. Figured you would be interested.