So I though more about the previous video I made and decided to make an updated video. This I think spells things out a little more clearly. If you want to reference the original video, I unlisted it, but it's available here: th-cam.com/video/9t-d9mAJjgI/w-d-xo.html
Correct ted was saying basically every attack roll you could draw a new weapon after dropping one. That's not the case at all. So otherwise if it was then what is quick draw for? @justinclark1867
Correct. You have to game it a little. Start combat with a weapon already drawn. 1st attack: attack like normal 2nd attack: stow after attack Nick attack: draw then attack Dual wielder extra attack: attack like normal The point being all of this can be done with your main hand and a shield.
@@NerdImmersion The real question is, if it gives you an ADDITIONAL attack as a bonus action (meaning 2 attacks with the "offhand" weapon from light property), does knick make both those attacks free? I don't think that's the intent, but it could be argued.
What the Dual Wielder feat says: "If you attack with a light weapon, you can make an extra attack as a bonus action with a different non-2h weapon". What the Dual Wielder feat does not say: - This extra attack replaces the extra attack of the light property - If you make the extra attack of the Light property, you cannot make this attack on the same turn. It does not even remotely say anything resembling that it replaces or overrides the extra attack of the light property or that you cannot use them both on the same turn. The only thing that doesn't normally let them work on the same turn is the fact that both require a Bonus Action, but Nick fixes that. Nick explicitly only applies to the extra attack of the Light property. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." It does not apply to the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat, which is an entirely different bonus action. The Result: Action: Attack + Extra Attack (Class) + Nick (LWP) Bonus Action: Dual Wielder
Interestingly, while Nick requires two light weapons, even allowing that you can’t draw and stow repeatedly in one Action, you could still Attack, Nick, Stow, Bonus Action draw a non-light weapon, DW attack… And since DW says you can equip or stow two weapons whenever you would normally equip or stow one, you could also pull out a shield for off hand. Ofc then you run into issues with equipping next round- nothing says you can stow AND equip, so at best you could free action drop, then draw two fresh light weapons, which you’ll end round 2 with, and repeat 2 round cycle. That or if your table allows Thri-keen, but then you’re wielding three weapons and a shield anyway, and you don’t need to worry about equipping rules unless you want to keep a hand free.
that combo only work with DW Feat if you're going to use a non two hander after Light Property or Nick. Schimitar + Nick into Long Sword + Free Action DW Feat Stow Post Attack by Scimitar (not Nick) + Draw non two hander and shield pre next Attack + Attack with weapon. If DW Feat gives it's own BA rather than replacing Light Property.
My reading the nick property just allows the strike, not the equip and strike. The attack action is what allows drawing or stowing, bonus action attacks do not allow that.
I think it's important to point that out out, that nothing (that we've seen) says you can draw or stow on a Bonus Action from Light or Duel Wilder. So unless you already have the weapon drawn, you can't actually use the BA. However, if the attack action is interpreted as one stow/equip per attack (not one per action) then Nick actually does allow one stow/equip since it is now an attack that is part of the attack action. The question is: Does the wording "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" apply to each attack that is part of the attack action? If it's not supposed to, then why isn't it worded "you can... as part of this action" to make it clear that this ability is allowed once per action not per attack that is within the action? The fact that features like Nick and Extra Attack add attacks to the attack action, and the wording is "when you make an attack as part of this action" leads me to believe that this was on purpose.
@@Lord_zeel the wording for drawing/stowing. However it really doesn't matter as long both weapons are light and have the Nick property. Assuming you can draw/stow with each attack, which is what it seems to be saying you, a straight forward and literal reading of the rules would allow you to do everything one handed and thus still hold a shield.
The draw/stow wording in the Attack action (2024) does not say that you draw/stow each "Attack action", it says draw/stow each "attack". Therefore the more attacks you get, the more draws/stows you get during your Attack action. What limits the shenanigans is that you can EITHER draw OR stow-not both!-on each attack. either before or after the attack. Say you are equipped with scimitar and shield at the start of your turn, and have several other scimitars sheathed in easy reach, fully intending these shenanigans. For your first attack, you can either draw or stow...but your hands are full so the only option is stow. Remember that dropping a weapon now counts as stowing it now. So you attack with your already drawn scimitar, and after the attack you can stow it. Your next attack comes up. It doesn't matter where this attack comes from--Extra Attack, Light/Nick-doesn't matter. Since you don't have a weapon in hand for this attack, you have to draw a weapon to make that second attack. Fine. But now you want to begin your shenanigans, and draw a different weapon to make your third attack. How? You already have a weapon in hand that you drew using your second attack. You would have to stow this weapon (allowed with the upcoming third attack), but now you don't have a weapon in hand to make that attack! You can't draw a new weapon to make that third attack, because you already used your draw/stow granted by this upcoming third attack. Shenanigans stop before you can make a third attack.
My understanding is that this is worded like that for thrown weapons. If you can only draw one weapon per turn then throwing multiple weapons doesn’t work because you can only draw (or stow) once. Every attack you can draw a weapon. I think that is why they specified the light property to not say off hand as well so that you can repeatedly throw with your main hand for the bonus action attack.
I think this is correct. But it does open up some weird situations. But if we interpret it as one draw/stow per action, it screws over throwers and it also means duel-wielding characters without the feat can't draw two weapons on their first turn.
Bit of a wrench in this: Apparently the "Thrown" property in the UA actually says you can draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack, so technically that is already covered.
@@Lord_zeel the UA is virtually worthless in terms of what is in the updated 5e. Like so much of it is changed or no longer relevant that you really should be using the wording in the PHB and not the UA.
You cannot draw or stow a weapon as part of a bonus action attack because that benefit only applies to attacks made with the Attack (uppercase) action, not attacks made using any other type of action (Bonus, Magic, Utilize, etc), even if that action grants you an attack. If I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, the draw/stow verbiage to which you are referring is specifically presented in the rules for the Attack action (again, uppercase), not the general rules for making attacks (lowercase). You could not, as examples, draw/stow a weapon before/after casting *Green Flame Blade* (Magic action) or an opportunity attack (Reaction) because those attacks are not part of an Attack action, they are part of different types of actions.
Casting green flame blade will allow you to draw a weapon because the weapon is a component of the spell and casting a spell allows you to draw the components you need, but you couldn't stow a weapon then draw a different one with green flame blade.
@roguestrike6582 I'd say this is a grey area, and I don't believe that's RAI. However, I acknowledge this is *technically* legal. Nevertheless, it is still true that you would not be allowed to STOW a weapon as part of the attack associated with this spell.
You attack with a Scimitar in your first attack Triggering Light property and Dual Wielder bonus action attacks. You then stow that weapon and take a short sword out making your second attack. You then proceed to use the triggered extra attacks from the scimitar, one as part of your attack action and one as part of your bonus action.
@@MattNeisinger This seems strange. Are you saying a wizard casting fireball with component pouch gets to draw the bat guano etc for free, but is stuck holding it for the turn unless they stow it with an object interaction? If you allow component pouch users to not only draw but stow their components after casting a spell, why not the weapon component of the blade cantrips?
Hey, so clarification I just noticed that might change how you interpret these rules: In the UA the Thrown property states "If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack." I don't know if this wording is the same in the printed book, but if it is, it may impact the interpretation of the Attack Action. Since the Thrown property explicitly allows you to draw before the throw (this wording is NOT in 2014), you would not need the one draw per attack interpretation of the rules, and in fact them explicitly mentioning this makes it seem like they needed to cover something not already granted by the Attack Action. The version of Attack shown in the video is also in that version of the UA, so while I don't know what Thrown says in the book, we do know those two rules coexisted. This also means that if you are throwing as part of a Bonus Action attack, you can still draw the weapon despite there being no other provisions for drawing as part of a BA. That weirdly means you can throw a dagger as BA but can't make a melee attack with it if you were not already holding it.
My take on the equipping/unequipping… The thrown weapon property states (at least in the playtest rules which I doubt changed much): “And you can draw that weapon as part of the attack”. This leads me to believe that the following verbiage for the Attack action applies more for non-thrown weapons, and means you can “EITHER” draw “OR” sheathe weapon when (specifically before OR after) making an attack with that action. So if you are a sword and board with multiple attacks per Attack action, you can still swing with first weapon, then sheathe it (choosing to “unequip” after that attack), then draw another weapon (choosing to “equip” before it) for the next attack within that attack action. If you had any more attacks within that Attack action, you couldn’t swap to a different weapon since you have already chosen to equip for that latter attack. Dual Wielder is confusing but makes me think that the “quick draw” feature lets you skirt around this by essentially letting you stow and then draw the next weapon for every attack. But seeing as the feat is called “Dual Wielder” I can understand ruling that it means you can still only draw OR stow, before OR after an attack, but just with two weapons at the same time. Which really only works for a true dual Wielder who has at least four attacks available (like level 20 fighter or the Nick/DW/lvl 5 martial combo we’re all talking about) TLDR; this needs in depth Sage Advice stat!!
As far as I understand, both Extra Attack and Nick work by giving you additional attacks as part of the Attack action you have taken, they don't let you take the Attack action multiple times. So if the Attack action says that you can stow/draw a weapon as part of the Attack action, being able to do multiple attacks does not grant you multiple draws of a weapon, you still get to do it only once. Because, again, you are not getting multiple Attack actions in your turn, you are getting multiple attacks in the one Attack action you take.
Based on the rules you have up on the screen you can't draw a weapon as part of an attack made with the bonus action only as part of the attack action. Therefore the weapon would already have to be in your hand so it's not going to work with a shield like you are suggesting.
Yes, but can you draw/stow once per attack per action, or just once per action? If you can do it once per attack, such as a fighter drawing a short sword on attack one, and a dagger on attack two using their extra attack feature, then you could do some funny stuff. The fighter could for instance draw a sword with their first attack, make another attack with the same sword then stow it, then using Nick (another attack in your attack action) draw a dagger and attack with it. If they have Dual Wielder, they could also use the BA to attack with the dagger again. None of this requires two hands. If the rule is interpreted as one draw/stow per Action period, then a fighter with extra attack would have to have the Duel Wilder feat in order to draw two weapons on the same turn AT ALL which doesn't seem like how the game is designed, and someone throwing daggers would be SOL since they could draw at most one dagger per turn, while someone with a regular bow can draw as many arrows as they have attacks.
@@Lord_zeel Yes but you can only draw OR stow once per attack taken as part of the Atack Action. Not Draw AND Stow for each attack. That means if your not holding a weapon and you draw your sword at the start of your turn and make an attack you'd have to use it for your second attack as well. But if you start your turn with your sword in hand you could attack with it then stow it after the attack and draw your axe before your next attack and attack with it. Also you can't draw OR stow for bonus actions or reactions. You'd have to already be holding the weapon.
@@Lord_zeel I'm honestly starting to think the intent was that you can, but i don't think the intent was that you can use two weapons while using a shield. Part of me wants to think they were trying to be inclusive and allow someone with one hand to be able to still use dual weapons...and forgot everyone else would realize they could use a shield.
@@dabeef2112 I know, but if you have multiple attacks you can swap out weapons if you do stuff in the right order. If you draw, attack, attack, stow, then draw along with Nick (which is part of the attack action), then you can use the weapon you drew with the Nick attack for the bonus action DW feat attack. Or if you start the turn with a weapon already held, you can attack, stow, draw, and attack with another weapon. You could then use the Light property BA attack, the Nick attack, and/or the DW BA attack. Or even without extra attack from your class, if you start holding a Light weapon you can attack with it then stow it, then as part of Nich draw and attack with another weapon, and if you have DW you could also use the BA. Because while you can't draw on the BA, if Attack Action works "when you make an attack as part of this action" it applies to the first attack, all extra-attack attacks, and to the Nick attack. If you don't have Nick and don't have extra attack, then you can't take advantage of this wording.
A Polearm master Martial using a Halberd can get 4 to 5 attacks by level 5 pretty consistently. 2 base attacks, 1 bonus action attack, 1 cleave attack and 1 reaction attack when a bad guy moves up on them.
2 with attack and extra attack, 1 with Nick, 1 with Dual Wielder, and one attack can hit another target with Cleave if two enemies are next to each other. Then you can reaction attack if you're lucky. Up to 5 attacks on a round at level 5, hitting 6 times!
Keep in mind the un/equipping rules live under the Attack Action, so strictly you can't weapon swap during your Bonus Action attack (or during Opportunity Attacks)🤔 unless it specifies under those rules separately to clarify equipping during those actions?
From what I understand, an Attack Action is the trigger, and extra attack is a subset effect. The drawing and stowing is given by the Attack Action, but the subset Extra Attack does not give the bonuses of the core Attack action Whereas the replacement of an attack [effect] is a subset of both Attack and Extra Attack, whether it be for a grapple or breath attack, either can replace the original attack or subsequent extra attack [effect], but it also does not inherit any of the bonuses from the original Attack nor Extra Attack [effect]
I am not an nativ english speaker! But in th eq/unequip rules it says an "ATTACK" as part of this aktion. And Nick says you can make an extra "ATTACK" as part of the Attack Action. This makes 2 "ATTACK" in one Action what you can youse to unequip and equip. Example: [ A. Aktion] i hit with Left Nick -> unquip Left Nick -> [ A. Aktion] extra hit right nick -> equip left shield -> [ B. Aktion] hit right nick. Makes this sense so you have after your attack an shield for more AC until next round. And next round you switch first Unquip left shield -> [ A. Aktion] hit right nick -> equip left nick -> [ A. Aktion] extra hit left nick -> [ B. Aktion] hit left nick
You can equip or unequip a WEAPON as part of the attack. It says nothing about a shield. If you want a shield, you can use your item interaction to equip or unequip that, which would use up one of your potential weapon swaps, and mean you can't remove it, attack two-handed, then re-equip it on the same turn. You can, however, swap between your desired weapon setups so long as they don't need your item interaction, and swap to sword and board or two-handing as needed, turn to turn.
This is written so weirdly. It’d seem like the intention would be to get an Action attack and Bonus Action attack when you’re holding a light weapon in each hand. Nick would be to let you get those two attacks in just a single Action. But is Dual Wielder trying to get a second off-hand attack or is it trying to say to off-hand attack no longer needs to also be a light weapon? I’m not sure I’ve been convinced about what the intention even is. With how loose the language on the light property is, the whole weapon switching things come into play. That feels exploitative, so I could see DMs disallowing it. Something in the same vein that feels less exploitative would be with light thrown weapons like the dagger. Could I be wielding a shield and throw my equipped dagger, then draw a dagger, and throw that with my bonus action because it’s a second light weapon even though it’s in the same hand? It doesn’t sound that bad, but it also just doesn’t feel like the intention. If you’re benefitting from the extra attack from the light property, it seems like you shouldn’t also be able to benefit from a shield. I feel like this book needs errata already, which is just peachy for people that prefer to buy physical books…
The problem is they removed the off hand vocabulary. I wonder if they did this trying to be inclusive, so that if you had a character missing a hand, they could still get those attacks and completely missed the fact that most players would realize you could still hold a shield while attacking with two weapons because nothing requires you to use your off hand and the rules seemingly allow you to stow a weapon, and then with Nick draw a different weapon, which as long as that weapon also has Nick, it is already drawn for the next attack action.
It's not confusing at all. Wielding a light weapon on each hand allows you to make an extra atk 1/turn as a bonus action. If one of the weapons has the nick property, you don't need to use a bonus action for the extra atk. Still only 1/turn. DW let's you replace one of the light weapons with a one-handed weapon, and you can draw or stow 2 weapons at the same time. Also, it's eirher draw *or* stow, not both. You would have to drop the first nick weapon to equip the next one. It's not viable in the slightest since you would run out of weapons and then be forced to pick them of the ground.
@@mappybc6097 no where in the rules does it say you most wield a light weapon in each hand. You don't have to drop a weapon as you can simply stow it. Then draw it the next round. As long as both weapons have Nick you just cycle between which weapon you use first.
It's pretty straight-forward. This is basic rules comprehension. What's tripping a lot of people up is that they're coming in with expectations from 2014, and so they're defaulting to reading the rules in such a way that they re-create the 2014 rules, then looking for changes. And then people's emotions get in the way because Grognards and curmudgeons feel ways about things. Oh boy how they do. Let me step you through a couple simple example builds. This is going to be WILD and then I'll show you why it's completely fine. Example 1: hit five times. We're a level 7 Eldritch Knight Fighter, and we take the weapon masteries Topple, Nick, and Cleave, and then at level 4 we take Dual Wielder. Pick the Fighting Style of your choice. We start our turn with a lance in one hand, riding on a phantom steed from the wizard. We approach a pair of enemies next to each other using 100' of movement on our mount, and use the Attack action to draw and throw a dagger with our free hand, hitting our first target for 1d4+4, dealing 6.5 average damage, and activating the Nick and Dual Wielder. Then we attack the first from 10' away for 1d10+4 with our Extra Attack feature. We hit, and deal 9.5 damage, inflicting the Topple weapon mastery, DC15 Strength save or they get the Prone condition. It doesn't matter if they save or not, it's just nice if they don't. Now we use our bonus action to attack with our lance again, inflicting another DC15 Strength save or inflict the Prone condition. Let's say we hit for 1d10, or 5.5 damage and as part of the attack, we stow the lance. We now make another Attack with a different Light weapon later on our turn as part of the Light weapon property, as part of the Attack action. Except, we don't! Since this is an Attack, we use the Eldritch Knight's level 7 War Magic feature to REPLACE the Attack with a Cantrip! We're casting True Strike. This cantrip uses a weapon as a material component. From the spellcasting rules, we know that a material component doesn't need to be in hand, we just need a free hand to access it. So we're going to access our halberd and attack using our spellcasting modifier (only +3). We use the Reach property to attack from 10' away still, adding 1d6 and converting the damage to radiant per True Strike, and hitting the first for 1d10+1d6+3, or 12 radiant damage. This activates the Cleave weapon mastery, which lets us, as part of the same attack, make another attack roll and if it hits, deal the weapon's damage but don't add your damage modifier, but True Strike still says we add 1d6 damage to this attack, so we hit for 1d10+1d6, dealing 9 damage. This is part of the Attack action, so as part of this attack, we draw our lance! We've now come full circle and are holding the same weapon we started with. We've also been 10' away from the enemy the entire time, so we command our phantom steed to Dash and ride back 105' away from the enemy and around cover where our spellcasters are chilling out. The evasiveness is important because we can't use a shield during this, so we're probably sitting at 16 or 17 AC. In total, we dealt up to ~42 damage. Average if they always save against Topple and with no other advantage is 25, but realistically we can optimize this by attacking with the lance up to two times, first (three times if there's not two enemies next to each other for Cleave). That would put us at 31.5 expected DPR, accounting for Topple, 33.9 when accounting for crits. Don't forget, we still might have Action Surge for two more full attacks! With accuracy and crits, that should add another 17.3 DPR that turn for a total of 51.2, at level 7! (Your results may be higher if you have one or more +1 weapons by then, bless, or advantage from something else.) Example 2: dueling paladin! We're a level 5 paladin with the Dueling fighting style and Defensive Duelist, wearing splint armor, and we're wielding a scimitar in one hand and wearing a shield in the other. We move up to an enemy and take the Attack action. We attack with our scimitar for 1d6+4+2 damage, activating the Nick weapon mastery and dealing 10 damage. Since we hit, we immediately use our bonus action to cast Searing Smite at second level, adding another 2d6, or 7 damage. We now take our extra attack, hitting for another 1d6+4+2 or 10 damage, and as part of that attack, we stow our scimitar. We now use the Light weapon property and Nick to make another attack with a different Light weapon later on our turn as part of the same Attack action, drawing a DIFFERENT scimitar and attacking for 1d6+2, dealing 6 more damage. We're back to the start with a scimitar and shield in hand. We dealt 34 damage, but at the start of the turn for the enemy we hit with Searing Smite, it takes another 2d6 or 7 damage BEFORE it gets a save, so we're at 41 total damage, and if it fails, it will take another 2d6 at the start of its next turn, etc. In addition, when the enemy attacks us back, we use our reaction to activate Defensive Duelist, bumping our AC up from 19 with splint and shield to a whopping 22 until the start of our next turn. We can do that last bit every single turn. It's not as big as Shield until later levels, but it doesn't cost any spell slots either, so we get to smite more. Good luck, level 6 enemies! Now, sure... we only did up to 27 damage without a spell slot, and with accuracy and crits we're expecting 16.5. But we're also immensely tanky compared to the above fighter. So if we can't easily run away, we're going to take a lot less hits! Plus, we might get lucky with a crit and divine smite for 2d6+4d8+4+2 on one of those hits. I also didn't account for our subclass, so we might have a +3 to hit on all of those attacks, boosting our average damage a good amount, or get advantage on all attacks, boosting our chance to hit and to crit if we don't already have that. We're also 2 levels behind the previous fighter, so we do have some room to grow! So, now, is that wild? Are martial characters busted in 2024? Is Weapon Mastery bad and breaks the game? Do these rules definitely not work like this because our knee jerk is that we don't like them? WILL THIS DESTROY THE GAME?! Nah. We're looking at some basic optimizations here. In 2014, a mid-optimized character doing things like this could easily do 25-40 DPR sustained. This was largely because some spells are busted strong, and we could abuse the -5 to hit, +10 damage bonuses from Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats. Those bonuses are gone now. Spellcasters are still just as crazy, heck more crazy now! But martials are actually getting something to make up for the loss of their largest source of relevant power. Without Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, even optimized 2014 martial classes would be completely useless compared to 2014 spellcasters. So, to close the gap between them and make them relevant to the game even when optimized mildly, they've been given significant new abilities, and tons of class and subclass buffs.
If you want to break this wide open: Bugbear (Surprise Attack: +2d6 per hit against a creature who hasn’t gone yet) Origin Feat: Alert (Ruined Background) Champion Fighter X | Ranger 1 17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha Fighter Feats: (Lv1) Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting, (Lv4) Dual Wielder (for just in case you don’t need to move the Hunter’s Mark), (lv6) ASI: 20 Strength, (lv7) Fighting Style: Duelling and (lv8) Fighting Initiate: Two-Weapon Fighting For example, at level 12: With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit) 1st Turn: 152.83 damage Bonus Action: Hunter’s Mark Action: 6x Handaxe (Action Surge): 6((((4d6=14)+9)x0.84)+((4d6=14) x0.19))=131.88 Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+3d6=13)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+3d6=13) x0.19)=20.95 Each subsequent turn: 58.05 damage (68.62 if Hunter’s Mark doesn’t need to move) Bonus Action: Moving Hunter’s Mark Action: 3x Handaxe: 3((((2d6=7)+9)x0.84)+((2d6=7)x0.19))=44.31 Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+1d6=6)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+1d6=6) x0.19)=13.74 or: Fey Touched +1 Int (Hunter’s Mark) 2 level dip Artificer (2x 1st level SS) Returning Weapon (+1 weapon, Handaxe) Could go for a third level and grab Battlesmith to instead max out Intellegence, if that way inclined
16:00 the wording suggests that every attack made during the attack action gets to stow OR draw. and I think they worded it that way so that if you have both weapons stowed/sheathed you can equip both and make two attacks on your first turn instead of hampering your ability to attack because you didn't equip your weapons before combat. however, since you don't need to use said weapon with the same attack as you equip or unequipped ... imagine this, you already drew your weapons, wether before combat or this is turn 2: you attack with a scimitar1 then stow it you attack with scimitar2 and draw a shortsword. you dual wielder bonus action attack with the shortsword. and stow it(which might not be allowed since this isn't part of the ACTION) then you nick attack with scimitar2 to draw scimitar1 so you can do all of this again. if you're not allowed to stow or draw with the bonus action: you attack with scimitar1 and stow it you attack with scimitar2 and draw a shortsword nick attack with scimitar2 and stow it dualwielder BA attack with shortsword Turn2 draw scimitar1 attack with shortsword nick attack with scimitar1 and stow shortsword attack with scimitar1 and draw scimitar2 BA attack with scimitar2 rinse and repeat. I would argue that once you've showed this and convinced the DM AND if both weapons use the same damage die, this would be allowed without announcing all of the steps during every one of your turns. I would do this but flavor it as me being roronoa zoro - using three swords all the time. I don't see this as anymore broken than a rogue/sorcerer using truestrke as a bonus action with quickened spell and then holding their action for the next creatures turn to cast truestrike first thing on their turn and get two sneak attack rolls... also warpriest/rogue could also do this with their bonus attack feature if you don't wanna cast spells.
*Keeps reading* "For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack Action and a Bonus Action..." I'm pretty sure I'll be defaulting to that interpretation over the weird shield weapon/swap bull.
Examples are not exclusive. There was never any question that you could do what the example says, the question is if you can do things that the rule isn't perfectly clear about.
@@generalsci3831 It's not bull, it's literally just how rules work. The example is not the only situation in which the rule applies, you might as well try to argue that you can only specifically use this with a short sword and dagger, because that's the only thing they listed an example for. It's not even semantics.
@@generalsci3831 We're discussing rules, rather than feelings. I understand your feelings, and they're valid. But they're not the rules. Unless it's your table and your players enjoy that, in which case, more power to you!
First, thanks for revisiting this topic. Having an open mind is one of the reasons that I follow you here on the tubes. Second, I was surprised when you said no one has played a dual wielder in your presence. I’ve got two in my home campaign, one rogue and one ranger. Now to the meat. I hear you on the Dual Wielder getting that 4th attack with the second weapon. I agree it is ambiguous and can be interpreted both ways. It does raise the question though, other than the STR or DEX +1 why take the feat? One of the reasons is obviously the removal of the light weapon restriction on the second weapon. The second reason is the Quick Draw. After reading through the equipping and unequipping text it seems that those rules limit your first round attack with a light weapon to one attack as you can only draw ONE weapon as a part of your Attack action. Then in round two you can draw that second light weapon and use it as your bonus action. Quick Draw takes that limitation away. The other bit I noticed is that drawing and stowing a weapon is given as an either/or dropping a weapon is a form of stowing. So you cannot draw - attack - drop on your turn. So your 4 attack with a shield only work at 5th level and then only on round two. Rnd 1 - draw,draw,attack,attack (no bonus due to shield). Rnd 2 - attack,attack, stow, bonus attack, bonus attack. Rnd 3 - draw, attack, attack … etc. That’s how it reads for me anyway. Thanks again for the discussion!
I used bloodhunter with dualwield. That was fun build. Not an optimal in any shape or form and I did lot of damage to my own character with it xD. But because it took your bonus action and scaled badly most people just ignored the option altogether.
I think they should change verbage and use attack as the attack action and like strike as the hit you make... Like when you make an attack you may strike twice with light weapons
Within the attack action, each individual swing does NOT count as some sort of sub-action, therefore only one draw/sheath per action. If you're wielding a light weapon with a shield, and that light weapon has the nick mastery option, then yes you get the extra attack as part of the attack action. So 2 attacks before extra attack instead of one.
Unarmed does not have the Nick property so you'll have to use a bonus action to use both fists. Two Weapon style at least lets you add your str. to the extra attack.
Can anyone make an unarmed attack as a bonus action though? Only Monks have that ability stated. Anyone can make an "off-hand" attack with a *weapon* as a bonus action, but not an unarmed strike.
@@Mark-ki7ic I'm actually curious because as soon as the book comes out, my group is going to play a new campaign & I'm going to try out the dancer bard. It's honestly kinda dumb that RAW anyone can make an off-hand attack with a weapon as a bonus action but not an unarmed strike.. That's what made me interested in the dancer bard because they can as long as they are giving out an inspiration.
I am not following you. Are you talking about Monk? Monk can't use Nick anyway, without the Fighting Mastery or whatever it is called. They can then certainly benefit from two attacks with weapons, and still use their bonus action to kick, elbow, head butt or whatever. At 5th level they would get 4 attacks and spend 1 ki/FP for two bonus action attacks (Flurry of Blows). That's six attacks until 10th level when you get 7 attacks (three from Furry of Blows). It's much better than the Fighter, since they can only use their Action surges once before they need a long rest get them back.
Important note. The ability to draw/stow weapons seems tied to the Action portion of combat, not the bonus action. (Unless those rules are repeated under the bonus action) Edit: This is actually probably not that important at all because the 3rd attack isn't from the bonus action anyway and as long as you are using two weapons with the Nick property, it wouldn't matter at all.
I definitely think the correct interpretation is that you can stow or draw 1 weapon once for the entire attack action, including the free "bonus action" attack from nick made with the different weapon that also has the light property. This also means if you are dual wielding say, a shortsword and a dagger, you could attack with the shortsword and throw the dagger, and then draw another dagger and attack with (or throw) the 2nd dagger. If you had the dual wielder feat, you could draw a 3rd dagger also. As far as crossbows, in real life you cannot realistically walk around with a loaded crossbow stowed on your back or your belt. It would either trigger accidentally or the bolt would fall out. The loading property means you load the weapon as part of shooting it and only via Crossbow Expert do you master loading so quickly that you can shoot more than once per round.
attack action says you can equip OR unequip 1 weapon not equip and unequip 1 weapon, so your whole scenario of attacking, then stowing the weapon, then drawing a different weapon falls apart right there.
Four attacks, no shield. I don't even think its ambiguous. The attack action is not the actual attack. The attack action gives your your attacks, depending on your multi attack and abilities. You can only stow or equip one (two with the feat). I don't see it ever coming up for me. I always talk with my players about their character concepts before hand. Then we get into the best and most important key phrase in D&D. That is how we would rule it at my table. Cheers and good times to anyone else who decides differently.
Depends on if you can draw or stow a shield as part of attack action (as you would a weapon)- if so you could make three attacks, stow one weapon, DW attack, draw shield at end of turn- but then you could not Nick the following round, since nothing says you can Stow AND Equip in the same action.
@@mjp121 you can equip or unequip a shield as an object interaction, which you get one free use of as part of a move or action. So you can't both equip and unequip a shield on the aame turn without spending an action. The equip/unequip during the attack action only specifies weapons.
@@sillvvasensei We know now this is actually incorrect because DNDBeyond has updated it to the utilize action so we're back to using an action to equip or unequip a shield. I assume when we get the 2nd printing they will also release this as errata.
my understanding from all of this is: Attack with shortsword, in that same attack with no extra cost: attack with scimitar, if you have dual wielder feat: attack with scimitar again as a bonus action if you have two-weapon fighting style, both scimitar attacks gain the ability score modifier And or: attack with shortsword, throw dagger, draw scimitar, attack with scimitar
First off, I completely agree that the Light property and the Dual Wielder feat are specifically written to be compatible. They both have extremely similar wording, rather than the feat simply referencing and enhancing the Light property, it gives you nearly the same feature again on purpose. Nick on the other hand enhances the Light property. If you have all three, then you can attack with a Light weapon, attack again (nick) as part of the same action with another Light weapon, and with Dual Wielder attack once again as a bonus action with a weapon that doesn't have the two handed property. They wanted you to be able to double dip by giving these two features practically the same mechanics, but making them different features. As to why they don't mention off-hand, other hand, etc. I assume it's to avoid making assumptions about how many hands/limbs the character has. Maybe you have only one arm, or maybe you are a race with four arms, or maybe you're one that can make pseudopods, etc. There were always some odd arguments with that sort of thing, and these rules simplify it all out by not talking about arms or hands in the first place. But it does leave a bit of a hole with the draw/stow rules. My initial interpretation would be that you can equip or unequip one weapon per attack action. You could only do more than one if you used an action surge or Haste, which give you an actual additional attack action rather than an additional attack on a given action. This interpretation is supported by the wording of the Duel Wielder feat, which explicitly allows you to draw or stow two weapons. However this interpretation prevents some gameplay options that would seem desirable, and the wording could be taken differently. There are two particular situations I would expect the game to support: A true dual-wielding character that has the multi-attack feature should be able to draw and attack with two weapons on their first turn in combat. That is, someone that intends to use one sword in each hand and is able to make two attacks should be able to make one with each sword without needing to wait an entire round to draw the second one. The other situation is someone that specializes in throwing daggers or axes should be able to draw and throw as many throwable weapons as they have attacks for, just as someone with a bow can draw as many arrows as they need to. Throwing is NOT included in "unequipping", so after a throw you wouldn't have a weapon equipped but should be able to equip a new one if you can make another attack. This interpretation relies on the specific wording of "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" which may imply that you can do this along with ANY attack that is part of the attack action, rather than meaning you can do it once as part of the action period. If it was intended to be one equip/unequip per action, why wouldn't it be worded "you can... as part of this action." Interestingly, in neither interpretation could one conclude that you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of a Bonus Action. Assuming that there aren't any additional rules regarding bonus action attacks that aren't contained in the properties mentioned, there is no allowance for a character to draw a weapon as part of a bonus action attack but there IS allowance for them to do so with a Nick attack since it is part of the Attack Action. Let's consider the implications of this interpretation: If you wield two weapons in two hands and do not have extra-attack (Rogue for instance) you can draw one weapon as part of the attack action, but can NOT draw one as part of the Light property bonus action. If you have access to Nick though, you CAN draw one as part of the Nick attack since it's part of the Action. If you DO have extra-attack, you can draw one weapon on attack one, and another on attack two, the second attack might be made using either weapon. You could then use the bonus action attack of the Light property if it applies, or if you have Nick you could do it without a BA and then potentially stow either weapon (for some reason). If you have the Duel Wielder feat, someone without extra-attack could draw two weapons as part of their single attack on their attack action, then use the BA of the Light property OR use the extra attack of the Nick property AND the BA or the DW feat. Someone with this feat and Nick mastery can make three attacks on a turn, even without having the extra attack feature. Furthermore, if you are throwing daggers you can draw one with your first attack, draw another with an extra attack if you have it, draw another with Nick if you have that, but could NOT draw an additional dagger for use with the Light extra attack if they do not have Nick. However someone with Duel Wielder could draw two dagger, throw one, then draw another with Nick and throw it, then throw the other dagger they are already holding. But the same interpretation opens up the following possibilities that are less desirable: If you have extra attack, you could draw a weapon as part of the first attack, then stow it after the second attack, then as part of using the Nick property you could draw a new weapon, and if you have the feat you could also use this weapon for the bonus action because it fulfills the requirements for both Nick and Duel Wielder. All while having the other hand free for a shield. If you do NOT have extra attack, you could draw a single weapon as part of your attack, but if you stowed it after using Nick you would not be able to draw one for your bonus action since bonus actions do not grant the ability to draw a weapon (as far as we know). Duel Wielder won't help you either, because it allows you to draw or stow two at the same time, so if you are only using one hand you couldn't do that. Unless we really want to push the rules, and say that "when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" implies that you could draw two weapons with one hand... Assuming we don't go that route, the feat actually really doesn't help someone that doesn't use both hands, since you can't actually draw any weapons as part of a bonus action attack. I also don't think we can interpret the feat as allowing you to draw one weapon while stowing another. So I don't think you can draw a Light weapon, attack with it, then stow it and draw a second one using the Nick property. What you could do though, is if you start your turn already holding a Light weapon you could attack with it, stow it as part of the attack, draw another Light weapon as part of Nick, and attack with it, then also attack with it again as a BA from Duel Wielder. Then on the next round, you would start with that second weapon already equipped, and be able to do the same thing swapping back. What I think is interesting though, is that in all the weird options, Duel Wielder isn't really the issue - Nick is. If not for Nick, you wouldn't be able to use Light and Duel Wielder at the same time, since you only get one Bonus Action. And since Nick is an extension of the Light property, not of a "two weapon fighting" rule, perhaps this IS intentional? After all the idea is these weapons are LIGHT and therefore really easy to work with, maybe they did mean for this to be possible - you can just swap weapons in and out if they happen to be Light because well... they're small, and they don't do as much damage anyway. Nick or not, you do less damage with that extra attack. Duel Wielder is most beneficial if you actually do use two weapons at the same time, since you can draw both even without having extra attack or Nick, and one of them doesn't actually need to be Light. Also interestingly Light/Nick do not specify Melee, but the second weapon for the feat must be Melee.
Good summery, but I didn't see you mention that the thrown property allows one to draw as part of the attacks separately from the draw provided by the attack action.
@@brettmajeske3525 Yeah, that throws a bit of a wrench in the works. It didn't say that in 2014, but a while I was replying to another comment I happened to look at the UA and noticed it did there. Assuming that's in the 2024 book, it does call the interpretation into question a bit. However, I think that the wording "when you make an attack as part of this action" still just makes no sense if they didn't mean for you to be able to do it for EACH attack. Why did they include so many extra words? They could cut "when you make an attack" from that line and it would clearly mean once per action. Those extra words don't clarify anything, nor do they impose a meaningful limitation (there's no reason to specify that you can't draw a weapon without attacking, because A. sure you can, and B. it's the attack action an attack was implied). So the only reason for those five words to take up space, is if they are supposed to indicate something not otherwise obvious - that the ability to draw/stow a weapon is tied to the attack itself, not the action. Also, the thing about Thrown could just be to make sure you can throw it as part of a bonus action, reaction, or any other situation that might allow you to make an attack that isn't specifically the "Attack Action".
@@Lord_zeel Between the mention in the Thrown weapon property and the extra draw from Two Weapon Fighting, it certain implies one draw per attack action. Needs clarification.
@Lord_zeel, I have other interpretation, as both light property and dual wielder feat says you get one extra attack as bonus action, I think DW feat gives just another one attack as bonus action, allowing you making 2 attacks as bonus action when fighting light weapon. Nothings says against it, Monks do even 3 attacks as bonus action at 10 lvl, so allowing 2 for fighter seems reasonable. Nick is not need to do those attacks, Nick is need to free up bonus action for something other than attack. What's more I wonder isn't Nick blocking DW as it says one extra attack only (but I would rule RAI it was to move bonus action attacks to attack action and DW feat just expand this by 1), other way using Nick is always worse than Vex (and I would rule this as specific from feat over general form weapon rules).
As far as damage modifiers go. Am I to understand that it would go (At level 1): Attack with modifier -> Nick attack no modifier -> Bonus Action Attack no modifier ?
My take away here is this: You take the Attack Action. Then you make an attack (lowercase, also a d20 test). Whenever you make an attack you can can either Equip/Unequip as part of that attack (again lowercase). When you make the Attack Action, you make the choice of an attack roll (lower case) or an Unarmed Strike. (Important thing here that I now realize and haven't seen mentioned before is you don't even need to Unequip a weapon to make an Unarmed Strike and can still have a weapon in your hand and still do it.) Any time you attack, you get the choice to Equip/Unequip during each attack, with the the caveat of choosing when you do it (before or after the attack). If you have multiple attacks, you get to choose before or after those extra attacks if you Equip or Unequip. So all of this video is pretty valid. Also it's further backed up by the Fighter having like 4 Weapon Masteries they can use (not sure of the true number, just trying to remember what was in the UA and on the videos Crawford did. I know they have more than other martials), and even more in further levels, while other martial classes have less. The Fighter is supposed to be the "Tactician" of the battle field and able to control the field based on what weapon they choose to wield and is ultimately the guy carrying around a golf club bag full of weapons that they get to choose which one they use at any given time, so they are now are by RAW encouraged to switch up weapons between attacks to lean into the Weapon Mastery Properties (This is a summarized version of what Crawford said in a video on the Fighters).
The nick feature seems like it will work really well with the 2024 beastmaster ranger. You get get all your attacks, and still have your bonus action freed up to have fido attack.
I play a beast barbarian in 2014 5e that occasionally uses two handaxes with his claws. Outside of the setup to rage have one handaxe equipped for next turn, starting at 5th level I can use my second turn to attack 2x with claws, equip 2nd handaxe, extra attack with 1st axe and offhand with the 2nd. Next turn, I stow one axe and setup the 4 piece combo again.
I think Enhanced Dual Wielding Feat simply takes the "light property" requirement off the "other" melee weapon used. Scimitar Attack, Scimitar Attack, Mace Attack, freed up Bonus Action from Nick on Scimitar (not a fourth attack)
All of this horrific design around weapon wielding would be so much cleaner if: - The Light property said you could draw a weapon as part of the attack made with it, as the Thrown property now does, and - If the once per turn object interaction rules stated you could SWAP any one weapon, rather than merely draw or stow. This would let your longsword Fighter take out a warhammer against a skeleton, or benefit from a couple weapon masteries like Trip followed by Vex. - The new rule for draw/stow with Attack didn't exist. The only way to cycle masteries would be with fast-drawing weapons, and great weapons can't go into goofy rotation loops whilst feeling like you are an actual weapon master who uses the best tools to their fullest extent. The TWF rules probably do need to reference "your other hand" as well, though.
Man, they need to clean this up, but I will do my best to explain how I see it. So first, "Light Property" and " Dual wielder" do the same thing. "LP" gives u an Bonus Action extra attack with weapons that are also light. "DW" gives u a bonus action extra attack if a weapon has the "LP". Both compete for the bonus action since "DW" does not affect what the "LP" does only require the weapon to have it as we can see how they worded "Nick" that does directly affect "LP". So when "Nick" moves the "LP"extra attack to the attack action it frees up the bonus action for the"DW" extra atrack. This only work with 2 light weapons because "Nick" and "LP" require a diffrent light weapon to work. That is the best that I have come up with on how they interact with each other.
To be honest they should just roll Dual Wielding into Two Weapon Fighting style to make easier to 2 weapon fight if that's how u want to play. Makes no sense to need 2 weapon fighting style and Dual Wielding just to make it usable
They only do the same thing when it comes to getting a bonus attack action. I don't believe they stack since Dual Wielder isn't separate from that actions of the LP, but encompasses it. But hey if that's how DM's want to interpret it.
@The_RealWilliam I did not say they stack . I said they competed for the BA. U have to choose which one use for your BA. Dual Wielder does not alter what the Light Property does or it would be worded like Nick that says the Extra attack from Light Property is moved. Dual Wielder only requires a weapon to have the Light Property for it to work.
I read this as when you do the ATTACK ACTION you can equip or unequip one weapon. You only the the ATTACK ACTION one time even if you may be able to attack more then one time in that same action.
I visualize Nick as a simultaneous attack, regardless of how it's worded. As in its main hand attack (extra) and then both hands attack (Nick) and then an extra bonus action off hand attack. That would remove the ability to draw+attack for the Nick off hand attack.
An Attack Action and a Bonus Action are two separate things, they are different Actions. Therefore, making an attack with a Bonus Action IS NOT 'making an Attack Action' with a Bonus Action - that is a misconception. So, you can make an attack with an Attack Action and make an attack with a Bonus Action, but the Bonus Action attack is not an 'Attack Action'. (Side note, this also means you cannot 'dual wield' to make two attacks as part of a Reaction, as attacking with a Reaction is also NOT an 'Attack Action'). So, a 5th level fighter with two scimitars (Nick property) takes the Attack Action and can make two attacks. The Light (and Nick) property then allows a single extra attack to be made as part of that Attack Action, so a total of three attacks for one Attack Action (and they still have their Bonus Action). [[[Does Dual Wielder feat give a fourth attack? Technically...I think, yes. So, the Light property and the Dual Wielder feat both use the same language to give their respective extra attacks; However, the language of the Nick property specifically only references the Light property. So, the 5th Level Fighter takes the Attack Action for two attacks, the Light and Nick properties allow an extra attack as part of that Attack Action, while the Dual Wielder feat allows and extra attack as a Bonus Action. Though this only works with a Light main weapon and a weapon with the Nick property as the secondary weapon. It is the Nick property that allows it to be part of the Attack Action, otherwise both Light and feat are competing for the one Bonus Action you can make.]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see replies below) Also note that you can only draw/stow once as part of an Attack Action. Meaning, therefore, that you CANNOT draw/stow as part of a Bonus Action. Thus you cannot 'dual wield' with a shield (except, I guess, if you want to throw daggers with a shield). The Thrown property crucially allows you to draw the weapon 'as part of the attack', allowing you to effectively draw and throw two daggers (Thrown, Light and Nick properties) for a single Attack Action with a single hand. (Disclaimer, this next bit is NOT SERIOUS) Here's a thought though, isn't throwing a weapon 'technically' unequipping it?... Throwing is just 'dropping at velocity', right? So, you can draw a dagger, throw a dagger, draw a dagger and then... not throw it, as you've had your one 'unequip' for this Attack Action? It says unequipping includes (subtext implying 'but not limited to') sheathing, stowing or dropping the weapon; after a dagger is thrown, it is no longer equipped, it is in fact literally unequipped... However, I don't think it sticking out of the chest of the bad guy should count as them 'equipping' it.
[[[Actually, thinking about it, you wouldn't need the Dual Wielder feat to get four attacks. 5th level fighter with two scimitars (Light and Nick). Takes the Attack Action, can make two attacks. First attack is with scimitar A, allowing an extra attack with scimitar B (the extra attack is made with a DIFFERENT weapon); second attack is then made with scimitar B, allowing an extra attack with scimitar A (the extra attack is made with a DIFFERENT weapon). That works, right?]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see replies below)
@@solarkhan484 You're right, the way it's worded means drawing/stowing is part of the attack made as part of the Attack Action (as opposed to just the Action itself). You still can't draw/stow as part of a Bonus Action though. However... given the wording to the Thrown property AND Dual Wielder feat (about drawing as part of the attack/drawing two instead of one), I do not think that that is the intent (otherwise these exceptions are redundant). I believe the 'general rule' remains to only draw/stow once, the 'specific exception' of the Extra Attack feature is you get to make two attacks (as there is no mention of changing the general 'draw/stow once' rule).
@@solarkhan484 "need the dual wielder feat to give you the BA attack" [[[If you are referring to the 'two scimitars' example, I don't think so? The Bonus Attack comes from the Light weapon property, the Nick property makes it part of the Attack Action instead of needing a Bonus Action. The only stipulation of the Light property is the extra attack has to be from a different weapon, scimitar A and scimitar B are different weapons. So, with Extra Attacks, the first attack is made with scimitar A, triggering an extra attack from scimitar B. The second attack is made with scimitar B, triggering an extra attack from scimitar A. Both extra attacks are part of the same Attack action thanks to the scimitar's Nick property.]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see immediately below) (EDIT) Actually...After reading closer, I've changed my mind: The specific wording of the Light property, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus action later on the same turn." I think this explicitly limits you to ONE extra attack, no matter how many attacks are made with a Light weapon. Similarly, because of the wording, I think the Dual Wielder feat *overlaps* with the wording of the Light property, still only producing the singular ONE extra attack. There is no 'source' from which these extra attacks come, so you cannot get one extra attack from one and a second extra attack from another.
i am trying to get into dnd and learn the rules. i mostly understood the video, but still not completely sure. could i go one level into ranger get hunter's mark and weapon mastery nick on a sickle, 5 levels into monk getting extra attack and flurry of blows, and deal (assuming i cast hunters mark the previous turn) (attack 1) sickle+dex+h mark. (attack 2) sickle+dex+h mark (nick) sickle+h mark (bonus action) flurry of blows, (strike+dex+h mark)×2
The wording for equipping and unequipping weapons is absolutely per attack. The wording went through two updates during the OneD&D testing process, and in the 2nd iteration, it was explicitly for each attack, and remained that way here. While the wording is a bit different, the wording is still pretty clear: "You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this (the Attack) action". Making your first attack is making an attack as part of this action. Making your second attack is making an attack as part of this action. If it were once per action, it would say something to the effect of "When you take this action, you can draw or stow one weapon. You can do this before or after any attacks you make with this action."
You have to unequip before or after the attack action not during. And nick is during the action. So you cannot use nick. With just the light property though you should be able to use the bonus weapon attack. But to do this you would have to be able unequip and draw at the same time. That means you need duel wielding.
Close! It's before or after the attack, not the Attack action. You get to equip or unequip each time you make an attack as part of the Attack action. The Attack action is not a duration or an event. Instead, you spend an action on Attack to be granted a number of attacks you can make during that turn. Think of it like buying tokens from a vending machine, that you can spend to win fabulous prizes!** When and how you spend those attacks is up to you! In fact, you could take the Attack action and make NO ATTACKS AT ALL. It's a "you can" feature. **The fabulous prize is missing on most of them anyway, because RNG hates you. :P lol Just kidding, honestly my luck tends to balance out pretty well session to session.
am I right if that wepon mastery nick works? 1. first attack of light weapon (first action) 2. second attack of light weapon (cuz it's light, so for now theoretically its bonus action) 3. second attack is count as first action because i have nick weapon mastery? 4. so now, thoretically i have free bonus action and i can attack again my light weapon? at the end i have 3 attack in one turn. am i right?
My solution for attack bloat is to give them an extra damage die instead of the extra attack feature. If that’s not sweet enough a +1 to hit can soften the exchange but this speeds up combat significantly and also makes the players feel epic.
Whether it works with the shield or not, I won’t allow it. I will allow the 4 attacks using the feat and Nick, even just to make it a viable weapon. What sucks though, is that fulfilling the fantasy of dual wielding the same weapon type is not optimal. It’s much better to use a non-nick weapon like a handaxe over two daggers for example, because you will lose out on a second weapon mastery that way.
True...but a 9th level fighter can use Push, Slow or Sap in place of a weapon's usual mastery...so there's that. Still better to use different weapons though. Also can no longer use two non-light weapons even with the DW feat, and they've taken away the +1AC
I just wanted to use 2 handaxes on my barbarian, but they have the vex property which I don't need because of rage advantage. 2 handaxes looks more wild/cool than 2 Scimitars on a Barb.
@@Charles-ij1ow yes! Same! I was hoping this updated would make two handaxe builds more viable, but alas :( It’s one of my favorite archetypes as well, very viking like
@@maxokaan Yea F it, I'm going 2 HandAxe for flavor. Zealot Barb bc I don't need to use Reckless attack to get the bonus att dmg. So then Vex on handaxe is useful and can attack as bonus action because they both light and can throw them. Then when I hit 50% health I'll use Warrior of the Gods to heal for 4d12 and be really pissed. Then bring out the Greataxe and reckless attack until the battle is over.
You guys are only discovering this now ? i know this since the playtests... I was planning using a monk for this because of bonus action attacks Also on my tables there is always a bladesinger dual wielding,
@NerdImmersion, I think you are wrong on few levels. First, there is nowhere limit how many attacks one can do as bonus action (Monk do 3 at lvl 10) and both light property and dual wielder says you do "extra" attack - so you not need Nick weapon to do 4 attacks at all (you just do 2 attacks as bonus action from light property thanks to dual wielder feat). Second, and this is more tricky, as with Vex weapon it is obvious that we do 4 attacks at level 5 (2 as attack action, 2 as bonus action), the Nick has sentence "You can make this extra attack only once per turn" (this sentence is need to not double your attacks as each attack with light weapon would give you +1 transferred immediately to attack action) it is referring to attack from light weapon property, RAW blocking attack from dual wielder feat (which is also attack from attacking first with light weapon). RAI Nick was going to transfer bonus action attacks once per turn to attack action, so either we can decide feat is "specific over general" and with Nick you do all attacks as attack action and have bonus action free for something that is not attack, or decide that using Nick weapon allow only 1 extra attack from light property and blocks dual wielder. Interpreting as you do is without any sense as Nick purpose was to free bonus action for cunning action or spellcasting, and using Vex would be outright better if you want use your bonus action for extra attacks anyway.
I've seen several dual-wielders through the last decade. It isn't every game, but I'd say about a quarter of them have had off-hand attackers. I even had a character that enthusiasticly dual-wielded slings for 20 levels because no one realized that didn't work in the rules.
In terms of the multiple attacks question I do believe that you’re correct. The Nick property as you said seems to fold both hits into one and frees up your BA for other uses or another attack as you showed. With that said I don’t think you’re correct on the equipping cycle. Given that the wording explicitly states “as part of the attack action” that would preclude you from swapping on your BA hit and your Nick hit as well. A Bonus Action ≠ action which means that you didn’t take the attack action and can’t swap right before or after that hit. The Nick hit is also not the attack action it’s just simply a simultaneous strike that occurs during your original attack action. From the most in depth analysis on this I have to say that: yes you still have to use two weapons that fit the bill of the abilities outlined before, and no you can’t have a shield while doing a weird weapon cycling idea.
I just like the idea of a dagger throwing fighter moving around with a shield and keep drawing and throwing as he moves around the field or javelins for that matter. I don't think it was suppose to complicate matters but open up more options, the only thing it changes is two weapon fighting with two longswords now.
Technicaly you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of each attack, but you only have 1 free object interaction per turn, 2 if you have the dual wielder feat, but so you cen unequip one weapon then equip another, but not do it again on the same turn, so you can do 2 attacks with one weapon unequip it and then equip another weapon, then use nick and dual wielder bonus action attack, but you can't unequip and equip on every attack.
I would assume, in light of the example "throwing individual weapons, and each weapon being drawn with each attack, as stated between Jeremy and Chris", that the equip or unequip is per individual attack.
@@brettmajeske3525 So you are saying I could throw multiple daggers, but I can't attack twice and draw a new dagger for the nick attack? Ok. So I will attack, throw the dagger as my second attack, and then draw a fresh dagger for the nick attack. I still have 3 attacks and a shield, or a fourth attack with two weapon fighting.
What happens to the Weapon Master properties on Off-Handed Weapons? What do you have Nick on both weapons? Does that mean you get 4 attacks w/o using your BA?
TL:DR. I'm a rules lawyer, play the game how you want A little late, but... We will examine this in layers. We will take the "Attack" action that has defined rules. You can make one attack roll, and you can equip or unequip one weapon as part of this action. The instances where "one" is used and "a/an" are different. "One" is used for quantity, "a/an" is used as an article. This would lead us to understand thas the basic attack action allows one singular attack roll, and one singular instance of equipping or unequipping a weapon, but not equip and unequip. Now we'll talk about exceptions to the rules. In d&d, exceptions to rules always supercede the rule itself. In other words, if an ability says it, it happens even if it breaks a rule. Example being the Extra Attack feature. It says you can attack twice instead of once for an Attack action on your turn. This feature supercedes the established rule that only one attack can be made during the Attack action. A similar rule can be seen under the Light property of a weapon. When the attack action is taken on your turn and you attack with a light weapon, you are able to make an extra attack as a bonus action on the same turn as long as the extra attack is with a different light weapon. This bonus action is not an extra Attack action, but a different attack roll. If a character with Extra Attack were using a light weapon, they could make use of this by making two attacks during the Attack action, then a third attack as a bonus action as long as the previous conditions were met. Interestingly, the bonus action attack granted by the light feature doesn't care if both attacks from the Attack action were made with the same weapon or different ones, only that the bonus action attack is used by a different weapon than the one being considered by the Light property. This means that if you had two bonus actions, they could both be used to make an additional attack as long as the requirements for the Light property were met more than once Discussing the Nick mastery, it is also a rules exception. It moves the extra attack from the Light property from a bonus action granted by the Light property to being an additional attack as part of the Attack action once per turn. Using the example from before, with Extra Attack you would be able to make two attacks as part of the Attack action, the Light property would grant an additional attack as a bonus action if the conditions were met, and the Nick mastery would move the additional attack to part of the Attack action if conditions were met. Incidentally, since the Light property can be triggered by any attack with a light weapon during the Attack action, even the extra attack moved to the Attack action by the Nick mastery. This means the Light property will grant an additional extra attack that can be used as a bonus action for a total of four attacks during the turn: Three as part of the Attack action, and one as a bonus action. Finally, returning to using a shield. Since the Attack action grants the ability to equip or unequip once before or after any attack made with the attack action, you would need to have multiple actions to utilize the features described above. If you met the conditions for the Light property while weilding a shield, you could unequip the shield or weapon before or after any attack made during the Attack action. Then if you used the Action Surge feature to use an additional action other than a magic action, you could equip a weapon as part of the Attack action. If you unequiped the weapon after the last attack was made during the initial Attack action, equiped a weapon as a part of the second Attack action, and the requirements were met for the Light proerty and the Nick mastery you could make three attacks as part of the second Attack action and finally an additional attack as a bonus action. Basically, it's only feasible if two actions are taken, but it works as far as I know
I play a halfling battle master who fights with two short swords. So the two weapon fighting style is a given. I also did pick the dual wielder feat, but it basically just adds one AC (technically, I could dual wield rapiers, but those are not the weapons I have). Now you might say: 'Idiot, that is not worth a feat. Hell, a two point stat increase in dex would have been far better.' And you would be right. However, I never optimize characters. I think of personalities, backstories, and make the choices accordingly, and do not look at effectiveness at all. My halfling fights with two short swords because that is how he was trained to fight (not going to go into the backstory, but it fits the character). He has the feat because he is a dual wielder. It would makes sense he would have this trait through experience.
My character was given a spe ial longsword so i went with dual wielder as the mele damage dealer of the group. Every once in a blue moon o got a crit and piled on the smite.
I believe you are able to make a 4th attack with the dw feat. Otherwise it would have stated that the light property option has been adjusted to allow all non 2 handed weapons instead of spelling it out with its own seperate sounding ruling. It just was badly explained. And 4 weapon dueling with a shield in your off hand makes sense to me. Attack with light weapon, stow weapon, draw another light weapon (pref with nick) as part of your extra attack and attack with said weapon for your extra attack, nick attack and dw-bonus attack.
Don’t conflate monks number of attacks with a cost with fighters resourceless attacks. If you care about balance yes the one costing something should get more.
Could you list the weapons that have the Light and Nick properties? I don't have access to the 2024 PHB. This would help me figure out if using the weapons be worth it vs other options. Running with a loaded crossbow could have some fun consequences if the player rolled a one-on attack or something. For some odd reason, I can see the second crossbow accidentally firing if the character trips or falls.
In the Unearthed Arcana: dagger, light hammer, sickle, and scimitar. Note that Nick is listed as explicitly only available on Light weapons, so if it has Nick it must be Light. Of these weapons, two also have Thrown and two also have Finesse. Dagger has all four properties. Note also that the Hand Crossbow is the only non-thrown ranged weapon with the Light property so for purposes of Nick it is the only option for making the extra attack ranged. The DW feat also specifies the BA attack is with a melee weapon. As such only the Hand Crossbow is ever eligible here, but you can't use it for both. You could use a Hand Crossbow to trigger the BA of either property, but since it doesn't have Nick you still can't use both. You can however use the Light BA to fire a second Hand Crossbow. Given its versatility, Dagger seems like the best choice of weapon if you intend to use Nick and DW as it would allow you to utilize both feature either in melee or at a range since DW only says it needs to be a melee weapon, it doesn't say you can't throw it.
I think people are not getting the part about nick. It states "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." to me this is reading as a replacement of the light weapon properties bonus action attack with the nick properties is attack during the Attack action not giving you both. The feat is giving you an extra attack in your bonus action like monks flurry of blow which has a 4th level resticion on it considering this lines up pretty well with the characters that get multi attack of a single class character.
Sounds okay, except not being able to add your ability modifiers makes it kind of weak, Tavern Brawler on the surface looks great for a Monk, but since it only allows you to use your strength modifier, you would be missing out on 50% of the feature for damage.
@@The_RealWilliam a Maul is a 2d6 weapon ths can be a +3 damage with a str 16 our ever loved drow ranger has 2 Scimitar that do 1d6 so the first is 1d6+3 and the second is 1d6 for a total of 2d6+3 the only diffence is 2 attack rools. Why do you need an damage mod or should the Maul ger double there mod because they are putting the force of both arms into the attack.
when it come to damage economy both "attack actions" have a modifier of +3 damage. One does it with one big weapon not two smaller ones. your primary arm is the modifier not the weapon in its hand. In the Maul it is part of holding the Maul in the two weapons it is your first attack. You are both even and you are no longer losing your bonus action to do it with nick. if both your arms are +3 modifier what should the Maul using both arms only get one bonus not both arms like you want for both your weapons
I've only seen Rogues do it and personally I think it's usually a mistake when they do (unless they are a Swashbuckler). Rogues are better off disengaging and moving away from the target than making a second attack. Unless they missed with their first attack and are certain a sneak attack would kill the target.
@@dabeef2112 as I DM I kept trying to suggest to the rogue player that disengage and move out was optimal but they wanted to roll dice and stab another time. Just goes to show : players enjoy doing more stuff even if it's not optimal!! :)
My group also have dual wielders many times. Including a pesky swashbuckler that was routinely doing 40+ points of damage per round on 3rd level, and I had to talk to the player because that was too much for that level.
Seriously. I know that they want to keep the book slim. I get it. It's already big, and printing costs per page, even if it's realistically not that much. But they have this entire DnDBeyond website, which they're already releasing errata on. They could have real play examples, optimization discussions, and keep a compendium, of "yes, it can do this" and "no, it can't do that" clarifications. It would make for great reading and ~actually bring value to their digital product.~
Should also be noted that the Two weapon fighting style specifically states you get to apply your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack you gained from the Light Property. The extra attack you gain from the Feat is from using a weapon with the light property and not from the property itself. You do not get to apply your ability mod to the extra attack granted by the Feat. The real question that needs clarification is whether you get 2 attacks on your bonus action if you have 2 light weapons that don't have the Nick property. *cough*Dual wielding hand crossbows*cough*
You only have one bonus action, so you can't use the Light weapon property to make multiple attacks. You can use Nick to move the Light weapon property attack into the Attack action, and then use your bonus action for something else, like the Dual Wielder attack, or a smite.
@RaethFennec except Monk can now make up to 3 attacks with their bonus action so being able to make 2, especially with the wording of the Feat "an extra attack on your bonus action", it's not out of the realm. And again there's a difference. One attack is granted due to the Light weapon property itself and the other is an attack granted from using a Light weapon.
I think you're exactly right with the light weapon, nick, and dual wielder going together, and giving you 4 attacks in total. But I believe in terms of equipping/unequipping weapons, you are only able to draw one weapon as part of your action--as it specifies one weapon as part of this action, not one weapon as part of the attack. Also, it doesn't make sense if it's part of an attack, when you have the dual wielding feat that gives you quick draw with two weapons at a time. So the idea that you can do things with a shield and draw multiple weapons doesn't work. In fact, if all your weapons are stowed at the start of combat, only a character with the Dual Wielding feat would be able to attack with two weapons in the first round--as they're able to draw two weapons as part of their action, and not just one. Without it, you can only draw one weapon, and will need to wait your next turn to draw the second. I think this is why the equipping/unequipping part says "If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don't need to use it for that attack," as you can use it for your Bonus action instead.
It says "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" not "when you take this action" or just "as part of this action" but specifically "when you make an attack as part of this action" without any specific limit on how many time that can apply. It's equip OR unequip, so you can't draw and stow in one attack, and it's ONE weapon, so you can't draw two as part of one attack (without the feat) but the wording seems to allow this on each attack that is part of an attack action. Note that this excludes Bonus Action attacks though! It seems like you can draw a weapon for each attack you get in your attack action, but the BA would need to be with a weapon you are already holding.
But can you stow or draw a weapon as part of the Bonus action attack? It does say as part of the attack action but that bonus action attack is not part of the attack action. It is when it is using the Nick property though.
15 min mark. Yes I agree you can't get the nick working with a shield. Nick abilities becomes part of the attack action. One attack action gives you one unequip or equip. This is not each attack but each attack action. The two weapon fighting feat gives you a later bonus action attack, if you meet the requirements on the first attack. . This will let you equip or unequip as well, as it is an attack action. Crossbow action could work for one attack per turn players. Shoot, draw new crossbow and shoot next turn.
Is this wrong? I think the important thing to remember is that you get one action, one bonus action, one reaction. If several effects give you a bonus action, that just gives you a choice of which to take. For instance, you can’t use a bonus action to drink a potion and then use one to smite. The only exception is Action Surge.
My reading is that you make one attack with a light weapon, stow that, then draw your nick weapon, and you can make Extra attack, Nick attack, and Dual wielder attack all with the second weapon. So I think the interpretation of using a shield works as written even if that isn’t the intention. 8th Level champion fighter with Two Weapon Fighting and Dueling and capped Dex is making 4 attacks with a shield that average 10.5 damage on a hit. 6 with action surge.
@@TheJourneyman03 It makes a longsword obsolete. I don't think the intention was to be able to use two weapon fighting and a shield. But the rules support it. They really should have released the actual rules in an UA document to avoid all this.
@@bradleyhurley6755 All of these rules were in UA 7. I remember a video at the time discussing this exact issue, and it wasn’t changed for the final print.
I've only ever had one player play a dual scimitar rogue. and after the changes to the light and adding the nick Property. I've ended up letting them attack the 4 times with no use of their bonus action. and it changed nothing for the balance of my games. they get to play the quick hit attacker that can still dip out of combat with a bonus action disengage.
Nick specifies that it is applicable when you take the extra attack of the light property. The qualifications of the light property are that you have a light weapon equipped in one hand and a different light weapon in another hand. Nick was specifically written to extend from the light property. Dual wielding extends from the the light property, so it has no direct relationship with Nick and is incomparable with Nick by the philosophy of “the specific trumps the general” language. That is the interpretation I expect to survive - but we shall see.
Getting 3 attacks with the dual wielder feat plus the nick mastery seems super reasonable. Especially since you would also need the two weapon fighting fighting style to add your ability mod to the damage. Its a lot of investment on top of having your hands full (so no shield).
@@The_RealWilliam It's a fighting style in the players handbook (2014) Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB). When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
@@X20Adam Oh it's a fighting style feature of the Fighter. When I see something referring to fighting, my old school mind thinks of all of former subclasses of Fighters (Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin).
Does Nick require you too have 2 light weapons if you have Duel Weapons feat? Can I have Nick with Duel Weapons feat with Scimitar and Morningstar. Level 4 Attack Morningstar, Nick with Scimitar, DW bonus action Morningstar?
Can someone please explain the benefits of duel weilder if you already get the light weapon property benefits, im reading it as getting 4 attacks at lvl 5 either way
You only have 1 bonus action per turn. So with 2 attack at level 5 would be 3 possible hits with light weapon. A, A, bonus action with light weapon. Nick saves your bonus action from being used so, A, A, N, and still have a bonus action. So to get 4 attacks at level 5 you would need light weapons and nick for A, A, N, bonus action attack with light weapon Nick can only be used once per turn.
All of this stuff about exploiting the drawing the stowing rules just seems like an attempt to have a shield out in a situation that most people don't picture it in. I would rule regardless of the wording that if you are fighting with two weapons you have them both out and using both at the same time. If a player in one of my games tried to explain how they could do all this while still having a shield, I would say "you are a sword and boarder or dual wielder. Please pick one."
I made a dual-wielding kensei/fighter in 5E using twin katanas (longswords), but it was sub-optimal. Still had fun, but not worth the feat investment to optimize it.
Attack with dagger with light property -1 attack Light property also a extra bonus action attack - 1 attack Total of 2 attack thus far Nick allows you to move “the extra attack” to the attack action - still 2 attacks, but 1 open bonus action (nick is only one per turn) Dual weilder (lvl 4 or Dex 13) light property attack still Add an extra attack as a bonus action…..now the bonus action may be a attack again - 3 attacks total thus far No more light properties to use now because you don’t have a bonus, bonus action can only use Nick once per turn. I thin a Lvl one melee character with Dex of 13 can do 3 attacks
Does Nick require you too have 2 light weapons if you have Duel Weapons feat? Can I have Nick with Duel Weapons feat with Scimitar (light) and Morningstar (not light). Level 4 with DW Attack Morningstar, Nick with Scimitar, DW bonus action Morningstar?
@@Charles-ij1ow I’d say RAW no unfortunately Light property says bonus action with a different light weapon Nick says the extra attack using the light property can move to the Action Dual welder says you can make an extra attack after a light weapon….. can be any weapon here other than two-handed. However scimitars do the same amount of damage as a mace. Finally…. Maybe a tricky way to do it. Both scimitars out…. Attack( stow weapon)….attack with second scimitar….draw your mace and attack for the extra Dual wielder attack? You couldn’t keep this up I don’t think (stowing and drawing your weapons in the proper order) Maybe?
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So I though more about the previous video I made and decided to make an updated video. This I think spells things out a little more clearly. If you want to reference the original video, I unlisted it, but it's available here: th-cam.com/video/9t-d9mAJjgI/w-d-xo.html
if you can draw a weapon with each attack roll then what's the use of quick draw in the dual wielder feat?
@@robplummer5859the dual wielder feat allows 2 weapons drawn in the same attack. Before you would have to draw or stow one at a time.
Correct ted was saying basically every attack roll you could draw a new weapon after dropping one. That's not the case at all. So otherwise if it was then what is quick draw for? @justinclark1867
Correct. You have to game it a little. Start combat with a weapon already drawn.
1st attack: attack like normal
2nd attack: stow after attack
Nick attack: draw then attack
Dual wielder extra attack: attack like normal
The point being all of this can be done with your main hand and a shield.
@@NerdImmersion The real question is, if it gives you an ADDITIONAL attack as a bonus action (meaning 2 attacks with the "offhand" weapon from light property), does knick make both those attacks free?
I don't think that's the intent, but it could be argued.
My head canon is that a guy named Nick appears and does an extra attack for you.
Like the Mysterious Stranger from Fallout
Lol
OMG..... I'm picturing that being Nicholas Cage.... and I am so dying right now. 🤣🤣
Nickacado is sneaky like that.
Yeah, imma go with this too. I'll choose Nick Notle raging in with a dagger
What the Dual Wielder feat says: "If you attack with a light weapon, you can make an extra attack as a bonus action with a different non-2h weapon".
What the Dual Wielder feat does not say:
- This extra attack replaces the extra attack of the light property
- If you make the extra attack of the Light property, you cannot make this attack on the same turn.
It does not even remotely say anything resembling that it replaces or overrides the extra attack of the light property or that you cannot use them both on the same turn.
The only thing that doesn't normally let them work on the same turn is the fact that both require a Bonus Action, but Nick fixes that. Nick explicitly only applies to the extra attack of the Light property. "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." It does not apply to the extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat, which is an entirely different bonus action.
The Result:
Action: Attack + Extra Attack (Class) + Nick (LWP)
Bonus Action: Dual Wielder
Exactly.
Well said
Interestingly, while Nick requires two light weapons, even allowing that you can’t draw and stow repeatedly in one Action, you could still Attack, Nick, Stow, Bonus Action draw a non-light weapon, DW attack…
And since DW says you can equip or stow two weapons whenever you would normally equip or stow one, you could also pull out a shield for off hand.
Ofc then you run into issues with equipping next round- nothing says you can stow AND equip, so at best you could free action drop, then draw two fresh light weapons, which you’ll end round 2 with, and repeat 2 round cycle. That or if your table allows Thri-keen, but then you’re wielding three weapons and a shield anyway, and you don’t need to worry about equipping rules unless you want to keep a hand free.
Read the very last rule of Nick then try again.
that combo only work with DW Feat if you're going to use a non two hander after Light Property or Nick.
Schimitar + Nick into Long Sword + Free Action DW Feat Stow Post Attack by Scimitar (not Nick) + Draw non two hander and shield pre next Attack + Attack with weapon.
If DW Feat gives it's own BA rather than replacing Light Property.
My reading the nick property just allows the strike, not the equip and strike. The attack action is what allows drawing or stowing, bonus action attacks do not allow that.
I think it's important to point that out out, that nothing (that we've seen) says you can draw or stow on a Bonus Action from Light or Duel Wilder. So unless you already have the weapon drawn, you can't actually use the BA. However, if the attack action is interpreted as one stow/equip per attack (not one per action) then Nick actually does allow one stow/equip since it is now an attack that is part of the attack action. The question is: Does the wording "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" apply to each attack that is part of the attack action? If it's not supposed to, then why isn't it worded "you can... as part of this action" to make it clear that this ability is allowed once per action not per attack that is within the action? The fact that features like Nick and Extra Attack add attacks to the attack action, and the wording is "when you make an attack as part of this action" leads me to believe that this was on purpose.
@@Lord_zeelyeah I really need to find the actual wording on it.
@@bradleyhurley6755 Which wording? Light, Nick, DW feat, and Attack Action are all shown in the video (and I quoted that).
@@Lord_zeel the wording for drawing/stowing.
However it really doesn't matter as long both weapons are light and have the Nick property. Assuming you can draw/stow with each attack, which is what it seems to be saying you, a straight forward and literal reading of the rules would allow you to do everything one handed and thus still hold a shield.
The draw/stow wording in the Attack action (2024) does not say that you draw/stow each "Attack action", it says draw/stow each "attack". Therefore the more attacks you get, the more draws/stows you get during your Attack action.
What limits the shenanigans is that you can EITHER draw OR stow-not both!-on each attack. either before or after the attack.
Say you are equipped with scimitar and shield at the start of your turn, and have several other scimitars sheathed in easy reach, fully intending these shenanigans.
For your first attack, you can either draw or stow...but your hands are full so the only option is stow. Remember that dropping a weapon now counts as stowing it now.
So you attack with your already drawn scimitar, and after the attack you can stow it.
Your next attack comes up. It doesn't matter where this attack comes from--Extra Attack, Light/Nick-doesn't matter. Since you don't have a weapon in hand for this attack, you have to draw a weapon to make that second attack.
Fine. But now you want to begin your shenanigans, and draw a different weapon to make your third attack. How? You already have a weapon in hand that you drew using your second attack. You would have to stow this weapon (allowed with the upcoming third attack), but now you don't have a weapon in hand to make that attack!
You can't draw a new weapon to make that third attack, because you already used your draw/stow granted by this upcoming third attack.
Shenanigans stop before you can make a third attack.
My understanding is that this is worded like that for thrown weapons. If you can only draw one weapon per turn then throwing multiple weapons doesn’t work because you can only draw (or stow) once. Every attack you can draw a weapon. I think that is why they specified the light property to not say off hand as well so that you can repeatedly throw with your main hand for the bonus action attack.
I think this is correct. But it does open up some weird situations. But if we interpret it as one draw/stow per action, it screws over throwers and it also means duel-wielding characters without the feat can't draw two weapons on their first turn.
It is definitely where you stow/draw a weapon whenever you attack as part of the attack action. This does limit it to only the attack action.
I feel like the intention was definitely not that you could use a shield while two weapon fighting, otherwise why would anyone ever use a longsword.
Bit of a wrench in this: Apparently the "Thrown" property in the UA actually says you can draw a thrown weapon as part of the attack, so technically that is already covered.
@@Lord_zeel the UA is virtually worthless in terms of what is in the updated 5e. Like so much of it is changed or no longer relevant that you really should be using the wording in the PHB and not the UA.
You cannot draw or stow a weapon as part of a bonus action attack because that benefit only applies to attacks made with the Attack (uppercase) action, not attacks made using any other type of action (Bonus, Magic, Utilize, etc), even if that action grants you an attack. If I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, the draw/stow verbiage to which you are referring is specifically presented in the rules for the Attack action (again, uppercase), not the general rules for making attacks (lowercase). You could not, as examples, draw/stow a weapon before/after casting *Green Flame Blade* (Magic action) or an opportunity attack (Reaction) because those attacks are not part of an Attack action, they are part of different types of actions.
Casting green flame blade will allow you to draw a weapon because the weapon is a component of the spell and casting a spell allows you to draw the components you need, but you couldn't stow a weapon then draw a different one with green flame blade.
@roguestrike6582 I'd say this is a grey area, and I don't believe that's RAI. However, I acknowledge this is *technically* legal. Nevertheless, it is still true that you would not be allowed to STOW a weapon as part of the attack associated with this spell.
You attack with a Scimitar in your first attack Triggering Light property and Dual Wielder bonus action attacks. You then stow that weapon and take a short sword out making your second attack. You then proceed to use the triggered extra attacks from the scimitar, one as part of your attack action and one as part of your bonus action.
@@MattNeisinger This seems strange. Are you saying a wizard casting fireball with component pouch gets to draw the bat guano etc for free, but is stuck holding it for the turn unless they stow it with an object interaction?
If you allow component pouch users to not only draw but stow their components after casting a spell, why not the weapon component of the blade cantrips?
Hey, so clarification I just noticed that might change how you interpret these rules: In the UA the Thrown property states "If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack." I don't know if this wording is the same in the printed book, but if it is, it may impact the interpretation of the Attack Action. Since the Thrown property explicitly allows you to draw before the throw (this wording is NOT in 2014), you would not need the one draw per attack interpretation of the rules, and in fact them explicitly mentioning this makes it seem like they needed to cover something not already granted by the Attack Action. The version of Attack shown in the video is also in that version of the UA, so while I don't know what Thrown says in the book, we do know those two rules coexisted. This also means that if you are throwing as part of a Bonus Action attack, you can still draw the weapon despite there being no other provisions for drawing as part of a BA. That weirdly means you can throw a dagger as BA but can't make a melee attack with it if you were not already holding it.
My take on the equipping/unequipping…
The thrown weapon property states (at least in the playtest rules which I doubt changed much): “And you can draw that weapon as part of the attack”.
This leads me to believe that the following verbiage for the Attack action applies more for non-thrown weapons, and means you can “EITHER” draw “OR” sheathe weapon when (specifically before OR after) making an attack with that action.
So if you are a sword and board with multiple attacks per Attack action, you can still swing with first weapon, then sheathe it (choosing to “unequip” after that attack), then draw another weapon (choosing to “equip” before it) for the next attack within that attack action. If you had any more attacks within that Attack action, you couldn’t swap to a different weapon since you have already chosen to equip for that latter attack.
Dual Wielder is confusing but makes me think that the “quick draw” feature lets you skirt around this by essentially letting you stow and then draw the next weapon for every attack. But seeing as the feat is called “Dual Wielder” I can understand ruling that it means you can still only draw OR stow, before OR after an attack, but just with two weapons at the same time. Which really only works for a true dual Wielder who has at least four attacks available (like level 20 fighter or the Nick/DW/lvl 5 martial combo we’re all talking about)
TLDR; this needs in depth Sage Advice stat!!
You use your free object interaction to stow your weapon.
As far as I understand, both Extra Attack and Nick work by giving you additional attacks as part of the Attack action you have taken, they don't let you take the Attack action multiple times.
So if the Attack action says that you can stow/draw a weapon as part of the Attack action, being able to do multiple attacks does not grant you multiple draws of a weapon, you still get to do it only once. Because, again, you are not getting multiple Attack actions in your turn, you are getting multiple attacks in the one Attack action you take.
Based on the rules you have up on the screen you can't draw a weapon as part of an attack made with the bonus action only as part of the attack action. Therefore the weapon would already have to be in your hand so it's not going to work with a shield like you are suggesting.
I have to agree. Unless there is another rule that should come into play.
Yes, but can you draw/stow once per attack per action, or just once per action? If you can do it once per attack, such as a fighter drawing a short sword on attack one, and a dagger on attack two using their extra attack feature, then you could do some funny stuff. The fighter could for instance draw a sword with their first attack, make another attack with the same sword then stow it, then using Nick (another attack in your attack action) draw a dagger and attack with it. If they have Dual Wielder, they could also use the BA to attack with the dagger again. None of this requires two hands. If the rule is interpreted as one draw/stow per Action period, then a fighter with extra attack would have to have the Duel Wilder feat in order to draw two weapons on the same turn AT ALL which doesn't seem like how the game is designed, and someone throwing daggers would be SOL since they could draw at most one dagger per turn, while someone with a regular bow can draw as many arrows as they have attacks.
@@Lord_zeel Yes but you can only draw OR stow once per attack taken as part of the Atack Action. Not Draw AND Stow for each attack. That means if your not holding a weapon and you draw your sword at the start of your turn and make an attack you'd have to use it for your second attack as well. But if you start your turn with your sword in hand you could attack with it then stow it after the attack and draw your axe before your next attack and attack with it.
Also you can't draw OR stow for bonus actions or reactions. You'd have to already be holding the weapon.
@@Lord_zeel I'm honestly starting to think the intent was that you can, but i don't think the intent was that you can use two weapons while using a shield.
Part of me wants to think they were trying to be inclusive and allow someone with one hand to be able to still use dual weapons...and forgot everyone else would realize they could use a shield.
@@dabeef2112 I know, but if you have multiple attacks you can swap out weapons if you do stuff in the right order. If you draw, attack, attack, stow, then draw along with Nick (which is part of the attack action), then you can use the weapon you drew with the Nick attack for the bonus action DW feat attack. Or if you start the turn with a weapon already held, you can attack, stow, draw, and attack with another weapon. You could then use the Light property BA attack, the Nick attack, and/or the DW BA attack. Or even without extra attack from your class, if you start holding a Light weapon you can attack with it then stow it, then as part of Nich draw and attack with another weapon, and if you have DW you could also use the BA. Because while you can't draw on the BA, if Attack Action works "when you make an attack as part of this action" it applies to the first attack, all extra-attack attacks, and to the Nick attack. If you don't have Nick and don't have extra attack, then you can't take advantage of this wording.
A Polearm master Martial using a Halberd can get 4 to 5 attacks by level 5 pretty consistently. 2 base attacks, 1 bonus action attack, 1 cleave attack and 1 reaction attack when a bad guy moves up on them.
2 with attack and extra attack, 1 with Nick, 1 with Dual Wielder, and one attack can hit another target with Cleave if two enemies are next to each other. Then you can reaction attack if you're lucky. Up to 5 attacks on a round at level 5, hitting 6 times!
Keep in mind the un/equipping rules live under the Attack Action, so strictly you can't weapon swap during your Bonus Action attack (or during Opportunity Attacks)🤔 unless it specifies under those rules separately to clarify equipping during those actions?
From what I understand, an Attack Action is the trigger, and extra attack is a subset effect.
The drawing and stowing is given by the Attack Action, but the subset Extra Attack does not give the bonuses of the core Attack action
Whereas the replacement of an attack [effect] is a subset of both Attack and Extra Attack, whether it be for a grapple or breath attack, either can replace the original attack or subsequent extra attack [effect], but it also does not inherit any of the bonuses from the original Attack nor Extra Attack [effect]
It's stowe OR draw. And i think this drawing is the most clear if you are using thrown weapons. Drawing for each attack
I am not an nativ english speaker! But in th eq/unequip rules it says an "ATTACK" as part of this aktion. And Nick says you can make an extra "ATTACK" as part of the Attack Action. This makes 2 "ATTACK" in one Action what you can youse to unequip and equip.
Example: [ A. Aktion] i hit with Left Nick -> unquip Left Nick -> [ A. Aktion] extra hit right nick -> equip left shield -> [ B. Aktion] hit right nick.
Makes this sense so you have after your attack an shield for more AC until next round.
And next round you switch first
Unquip left shield -> [ A. Aktion] hit right nick -> equip left nick -> [ A. Aktion] extra hit left nick -> [ B. Aktion] hit left nick
You can equip or unequip a WEAPON as part of the attack. It says nothing about a shield. If you want a shield, you can use your item interaction to equip or unequip that, which would use up one of your potential weapon swaps, and mean you can't remove it, attack two-handed, then re-equip it on the same turn. You can, however, swap between your desired weapon setups so long as they don't need your item interaction, and swap to sword and board or two-handing as needed, turn to turn.
This is written so weirdly. It’d seem like the intention would be to get an Action attack and Bonus Action attack when you’re holding a light weapon in each hand. Nick would be to let you get those two attacks in just a single Action. But is Dual Wielder trying to get a second off-hand attack or is it trying to say to off-hand attack no longer needs to also be a light weapon? I’m not sure I’ve been convinced about what the intention even is.
With how loose the language on the light property is, the whole weapon switching things come into play. That feels exploitative, so I could see DMs disallowing it. Something in the same vein that feels less exploitative would be with light thrown weapons like the dagger. Could I be wielding a shield and throw my equipped dagger, then draw a dagger, and throw that with my bonus action because it’s a second light weapon even though it’s in the same hand? It doesn’t sound that bad, but it also just doesn’t feel like the intention. If you’re benefitting from the extra attack from the light property, it seems like you shouldn’t also be able to benefit from a shield.
I feel like this book needs errata already, which is just peachy for people that prefer to buy physical books…
The problem is they removed the off hand vocabulary. I wonder if they did this trying to be inclusive, so that if you had a character missing a hand, they could still get those attacks and completely missed the fact that most players would realize you could still hold a shield while attacking with two weapons because nothing requires you to use your off hand and the rules seemingly allow you to stow a weapon, and then with Nick draw a different weapon, which as long as that weapon also has Nick, it is already drawn for the next attack action.
It's not confusing at all.
Wielding a light weapon on each hand allows you to make an extra atk 1/turn as a bonus action.
If one of the weapons has the nick property, you don't need to use a bonus action for the extra atk. Still only 1/turn.
DW let's you replace one of the light weapons with a one-handed weapon, and you can draw or stow 2 weapons at the same time.
Also, it's eirher draw *or* stow, not both. You would have to drop the first nick weapon to equip the next one. It's not viable in the slightest since you would run out of weapons and then be forced to pick them of the ground.
@@mappybc6097 no where in the rules does it say you most wield a light weapon in each hand. You don't have to drop a weapon as you can simply stow it. Then draw it the next round. As long as both weapons have Nick you just cycle between which weapon you use first.
You are correct at the beginning of your statement. The bonus oh attack is rolled into the reg attack action.
@bradleyhurley6755 Read the light weapon property description. The extra atk requires a different light weapon.
It's pretty straight-forward. This is basic rules comprehension. What's tripping a lot of people up is that they're coming in with expectations from 2014, and so they're defaulting to reading the rules in such a way that they re-create the 2014 rules, then looking for changes. And then people's emotions get in the way because Grognards and curmudgeons feel ways about things. Oh boy how they do.
Let me step you through a couple simple example builds. This is going to be WILD and then I'll show you why it's completely fine.
Example 1: hit five times.
We're a level 7 Eldritch Knight Fighter, and we take the weapon masteries Topple, Nick, and Cleave, and then at level 4 we take Dual Wielder. Pick the Fighting Style of your choice. We start our turn with a lance in one hand, riding on a phantom steed from the wizard. We approach a pair of enemies next to each other using 100' of movement on our mount, and use the Attack action to draw and throw a dagger with our free hand, hitting our first target for 1d4+4, dealing 6.5 average damage, and activating the Nick and Dual Wielder. Then we attack the first from 10' away for 1d10+4 with our Extra Attack feature. We hit, and deal 9.5 damage, inflicting the Topple weapon mastery, DC15 Strength save or they get the Prone condition. It doesn't matter if they save or not, it's just nice if they don't. Now we use our bonus action to attack with our lance again, inflicting another DC15 Strength save or inflict the Prone condition. Let's say we hit for 1d10, or 5.5 damage and as part of the attack, we stow the lance. We now make another Attack with a different Light weapon later on our turn as part of the Light weapon property, as part of the Attack action. Except, we don't! Since this is an Attack, we use the Eldritch Knight's level 7 War Magic feature to REPLACE the Attack with a Cantrip! We're casting True Strike. This cantrip uses a weapon as a material component. From the spellcasting rules, we know that a material component doesn't need to be in hand, we just need a free hand to access it. So we're going to access our halberd and attack using our spellcasting modifier (only +3). We use the Reach property to attack from 10' away still, adding 1d6 and converting the damage to radiant per True Strike, and hitting the first for 1d10+1d6+3, or 12 radiant damage. This activates the Cleave weapon mastery, which lets us, as part of the same attack, make another attack roll and if it hits, deal the weapon's damage but don't add your damage modifier, but True Strike still says we add 1d6 damage to this attack, so we hit for 1d10+1d6, dealing 9 damage. This is part of the Attack action, so as part of this attack, we draw our lance! We've now come full circle and are holding the same weapon we started with. We've also been 10' away from the enemy the entire time, so we command our phantom steed to Dash and ride back 105' away from the enemy and around cover where our spellcasters are chilling out. The evasiveness is important because we can't use a shield during this, so we're probably sitting at 16 or 17 AC. In total, we dealt up to ~42 damage. Average if they always save against Topple and with no other advantage is 25, but realistically we can optimize this by attacking with the lance up to two times, first (three times if there's not two enemies next to each other for Cleave). That would put us at 31.5 expected DPR, accounting for Topple, 33.9 when accounting for crits. Don't forget, we still might have Action Surge for two more full attacks! With accuracy and crits, that should add another 17.3 DPR that turn for a total of 51.2, at level 7! (Your results may be higher if you have one or more +1 weapons by then, bless, or advantage from something else.)
Example 2: dueling paladin!
We're a level 5 paladin with the Dueling fighting style and Defensive Duelist, wearing splint armor, and we're wielding a scimitar in one hand and wearing a shield in the other. We move up to an enemy and take the Attack action. We attack with our scimitar for 1d6+4+2 damage, activating the Nick weapon mastery and dealing 10 damage. Since we hit, we immediately use our bonus action to cast Searing Smite at second level, adding another 2d6, or 7 damage. We now take our extra attack, hitting for another 1d6+4+2 or 10 damage, and as part of that attack, we stow our scimitar. We now use the Light weapon property and Nick to make another attack with a different Light weapon later on our turn as part of the same Attack action, drawing a DIFFERENT scimitar and attacking for 1d6+2, dealing 6 more damage. We're back to the start with a scimitar and shield in hand. We dealt 34 damage, but at the start of the turn for the enemy we hit with Searing Smite, it takes another 2d6 or 7 damage BEFORE it gets a save, so we're at 41 total damage, and if it fails, it will take another 2d6 at the start of its next turn, etc. In addition, when the enemy attacks us back, we use our reaction to activate Defensive Duelist, bumping our AC up from 19 with splint and shield to a whopping 22 until the start of our next turn. We can do that last bit every single turn. It's not as big as Shield until later levels, but it doesn't cost any spell slots either, so we get to smite more. Good luck, level 6 enemies! Now, sure... we only did up to 27 damage without a spell slot, and with accuracy and crits we're expecting 16.5. But we're also immensely tanky compared to the above fighter. So if we can't easily run away, we're going to take a lot less hits! Plus, we might get lucky with a crit and divine smite for 2d6+4d8+4+2 on one of those hits. I also didn't account for our subclass, so we might have a +3 to hit on all of those attacks, boosting our average damage a good amount, or get advantage on all attacks, boosting our chance to hit and to crit if we don't already have that. We're also 2 levels behind the previous fighter, so we do have some room to grow!
So, now, is that wild? Are martial characters busted in 2024? Is Weapon Mastery bad and breaks the game? Do these rules definitely not work like this because our knee jerk is that we don't like them? WILL THIS DESTROY THE GAME?! Nah. We're looking at some basic optimizations here. In 2014, a mid-optimized character doing things like this could easily do 25-40 DPR sustained. This was largely because some spells are busted strong, and we could abuse the -5 to hit, +10 damage bonuses from Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats. Those bonuses are gone now. Spellcasters are still just as crazy, heck more crazy now! But martials are actually getting something to make up for the loss of their largest source of relevant power. Without Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, even optimized 2014 martial classes would be completely useless compared to 2014 spellcasters. So, to close the gap between them and make them relevant to the game even when optimized mildly, they've been given significant new abilities, and tons of class and subclass buffs.
If you want to break this wide open:
Bugbear (Surprise Attack: +2d6 per hit against a creature who hasn’t gone yet)
Origin Feat: Alert (Ruined Background)
Champion Fighter X | Ranger 1
17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha
Fighter Feats: (Lv1) Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting, (Lv4) Dual Wielder (for just in case you don’t need to move the Hunter’s Mark), (lv6) ASI: 20 Strength, (lv7) Fighting Style: Duelling and (lv8) Fighting Initiate: Two-Weapon Fighting
For example, at level 12:
With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit)
1st Turn: 152.83 damage
Bonus Action: Hunter’s Mark
Action: 6x Handaxe (Action Surge): 6((((4d6=14)+9)x0.84)+((4d6=14) x0.19))=131.88
Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+3d6=13)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+3d6=13) x0.19)=20.95
Each subsequent turn: 58.05 damage (68.62 if Hunter’s Mark doesn’t need to move)
Bonus Action: Moving Hunter’s Mark
Action: 3x Handaxe: 3((((2d6=7)+9)x0.84)+((2d6=7)x0.19))=44.31
Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+1d6=6)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+1d6=6) x0.19)=13.74
or:
Fey Touched +1 Int (Hunter’s Mark)
2 level dip Artificer (2x 1st level SS)
Returning Weapon (+1 weapon, Handaxe)
Could go for a third level and grab Battlesmith to instead max out Intellegence, if that way inclined
16:00 the wording suggests that every attack made during the attack action gets to stow OR draw. and I think they worded it that way so that if you have both weapons stowed/sheathed you can equip both and make two attacks on your first turn instead of hampering your ability to attack because you didn't equip your weapons before combat.
however, since you don't need to use said weapon with the same attack as you equip or unequipped ... imagine this, you already drew your weapons, wether before combat or this is turn 2:
you attack with a scimitar1 then stow it
you attack with scimitar2 and draw a shortsword.
you dual wielder bonus action attack with the shortsword. and stow it(which might not be allowed since this isn't part of the ACTION)
then you nick attack with scimitar2 to draw scimitar1 so you can do all of this again.
if you're not allowed to stow or draw with the bonus action:
you attack with scimitar1 and stow it
you attack with scimitar2 and draw a shortsword
nick attack with scimitar2 and stow it
dualwielder BA attack with shortsword
Turn2
draw scimitar1 attack with shortsword
nick attack with scimitar1 and stow shortsword
attack with scimitar1 and draw scimitar2
BA attack with scimitar2 rinse and repeat.
I would argue that once you've showed this and convinced the DM AND if both weapons use the same damage die, this would be allowed without announcing all of the steps during every one of your turns.
I would do this but flavor it as me being roronoa zoro - using three swords all the time.
I don't see this as anymore broken than a rogue/sorcerer using truestrke as a bonus action with quickened spell and then holding their action for the next creatures turn to cast truestrike first thing on their turn and get two sneak attack rolls... also warpriest/rogue could also do this with their bonus attack feature if you don't wanna cast spells.
*Keeps reading*
"For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack Action and a Bonus Action..."
I'm pretty sure I'll be defaulting to that interpretation over the weird shield weapon/swap bull.
It doesn't have to be a dagger or a shortsword, just any weapon with the light properties.
Examples are not exclusive. There was never any question that you could do what the example says, the question is if you can do things that the rule isn't perfectly clear about.
Ah, here we go with the bull semantics again in the replies.
@@generalsci3831 It's not bull, it's literally just how rules work. The example is not the only situation in which the rule applies, you might as well try to argue that you can only specifically use this with a short sword and dagger, because that's the only thing they listed an example for. It's not even semantics.
@@generalsci3831 We're discussing rules, rather than feelings. I understand your feelings, and they're valid. But they're not the rules. Unless it's your table and your players enjoy that, in which case, more power to you!
I think if this is ruled in your favor re shield and drawing weapons it should henceforth be known as, not nick, but ted. Great video! ❤
You can not equip or unequip a weapon as part of a bonus action attack. The ability to to so it part of the attack action specifically
First, thanks for revisiting this topic. Having an open mind is one of the reasons that I follow you here on the tubes.
Second, I was surprised when you said no one has played a dual wielder in your presence. I’ve got two in my home campaign, one rogue and one ranger.
Now to the meat. I hear you on the Dual Wielder getting that 4th attack with the second weapon. I agree it is ambiguous and can be interpreted both ways. It does raise the question though, other than the STR or DEX +1 why take the feat? One of the reasons is obviously the removal of the light weapon restriction on the second weapon.
The second reason is the Quick Draw. After reading through the equipping and unequipping text it seems that those rules limit your first round attack with a light weapon to one attack as you can only draw ONE weapon as a part of your Attack action. Then in round two you can draw that second light weapon and use it as your bonus action. Quick Draw takes that limitation away.
The other bit I noticed is that drawing and stowing a weapon is given as an either/or dropping a weapon is a form of stowing. So you cannot draw - attack - drop on your turn. So your 4 attack with a shield only work at 5th level and then only on round two. Rnd 1 - draw,draw,attack,attack (no bonus due to shield). Rnd 2 - attack,attack, stow, bonus attack, bonus attack. Rnd 3 - draw, attack, attack … etc.
That’s how it reads for me anyway.
Thanks again for the discussion!
I used bloodhunter with dualwield. That was fun build. Not an optimal in any shape or form and I did lot of damage to my own character with it xD.
But because it took your bonus action and scaled badly most people just ignored the option altogether.
I think they should change verbage and use attack as the attack action and like strike as the hit you make... Like when you make an attack you may strike twice with light weapons
Within the attack action, each individual swing does NOT count as some sort of sub-action, therefore only one draw/sheath per action. If you're wielding a light weapon with a shield, and that light weapon has the nick mastery option, then yes you get the extra attack as part of the attack action. So 2 attacks before extra attack instead of one.
Unarmed does not have the Nick property so you'll have to use a bonus action to use both fists. Two Weapon style at least lets you add your str. to the extra attack.
Can anyone make an unarmed attack as a bonus action though? Only Monks have that ability stated. Anyone can make an "off-hand" attack with a *weapon* as a bonus action, but not an unarmed strike.
@@5-Voltgood question I've seen it as a HOUSE RULE but RAW no idea
@@Mark-ki7ic I'm actually curious because as soon as the book comes out, my group is going to play a new campaign & I'm going to try out the dancer bard. It's honestly kinda dumb that RAW anyone can make an off-hand attack with a weapon as a bonus action but not an unarmed strike.. That's what made me interested in the dancer bard because they can as long as they are giving out an inspiration.
I am not following you. Are you talking about Monk? Monk can't use Nick anyway, without the Fighting Mastery or whatever it is called. They can then certainly benefit from two attacks with weapons, and still use their bonus action to kick, elbow, head butt or whatever. At 5th level they would get 4 attacks and spend 1 ki/FP for two bonus action attacks (Flurry of Blows). That's six attacks until 10th level when you get 7 attacks (three from Furry of Blows). It's much better than the Fighter, since they can only use their Action surges once before they need a long rest get them back.
Important note. The ability to draw/stow weapons seems tied to the Action portion of combat, not the bonus action. (Unless those rules are repeated under the bonus action)
Edit: This is actually probably not that important at all because the 3rd attack isn't from the bonus action anyway and as long as you are using two weapons with the Nick property, it wouldn't matter at all.
I definitely think the correct interpretation is that you can stow or draw 1 weapon once for the entire attack action, including the free "bonus action" attack from nick made with the different weapon that also has the light property. This also means if you are dual wielding say, a shortsword and a dagger, you could attack with the shortsword and throw the dagger, and then draw another dagger and attack with (or throw) the 2nd dagger. If you had the dual wielder feat, you could draw a 3rd dagger also.
As far as crossbows, in real life you cannot realistically walk around with a loaded crossbow stowed on your back or your belt. It would either trigger accidentally or the bolt would fall out. The loading property means you load the weapon as part of shooting it and only via Crossbow Expert do you master loading so quickly that you can shoot more than once per round.
attack action says you can equip OR unequip 1 weapon not equip and unequip 1 weapon, so your whole scenario of attacking, then stowing the weapon, then drawing a different weapon falls apart right there.
Yeah, it doesn't appear it work.
It says you can equip or unequip for each attack made with the attack action. If your making multiple attacks you get multiple stows/draws
@@solarkhan484 yeah I realized a couple people were summarizing the rule incorrectly
Four attacks, no shield. I don't even think its ambiguous. The attack action is not the actual attack. The attack action gives your your attacks, depending on your multi attack and abilities. You can only stow or equip one (two with the feat). I don't see it ever coming up for me. I always talk with my players about their character concepts before hand. Then we get into the best and most important key phrase in D&D. That is how we would rule it at my table. Cheers and good times to anyone else who decides differently.
I think you’re exactly right. 4 attacks, no shield!
Depends on if you can draw or stow a shield as part of attack action (as you would a weapon)- if so you could make three attacks, stow one weapon, DW attack, draw shield at end of turn- but then you could not Nick the following round, since nothing says you can Stow AND Equip in the same action.
@@mjp121 you can equip or unequip a shield as an object interaction, which you get one free use of as part of a move or action. So you can't both equip and unequip a shield on the aame turn without spending an action. The equip/unequip during the attack action only specifies weapons.
@@sillvvasensei We know now this is actually incorrect because DNDBeyond has updated it to the utilize action so we're back to using an action to equip or unequip a shield. I assume when we get the 2nd printing they will also release this as errata.
@@MannonMartin yep. I know
my understanding from all of this is: Attack with shortsword, in that same attack with no extra cost: attack with scimitar, if you have dual wielder feat: attack with scimitar again as a bonus action
if you have two-weapon fighting style, both scimitar attacks gain the ability score modifier
And or: attack with shortsword, throw dagger, draw scimitar, attack with scimitar
First off, I completely agree that the Light property and the Dual Wielder feat are specifically written to be compatible. They both have extremely similar wording, rather than the feat simply referencing and enhancing the Light property, it gives you nearly the same feature again on purpose. Nick on the other hand enhances the Light property. If you have all three, then you can attack with a Light weapon, attack again (nick) as part of the same action with another Light weapon, and with Dual Wielder attack once again as a bonus action with a weapon that doesn't have the two handed property. They wanted you to be able to double dip by giving these two features practically the same mechanics, but making them different features.
As to why they don't mention off-hand, other hand, etc. I assume it's to avoid making assumptions about how many hands/limbs the character has. Maybe you have only one arm, or maybe you are a race with four arms, or maybe you're one that can make pseudopods, etc. There were always some odd arguments with that sort of thing, and these rules simplify it all out by not talking about arms or hands in the first place.
But it does leave a bit of a hole with the draw/stow rules. My initial interpretation would be that you can equip or unequip one weapon per attack action. You could only do more than one if you used an action surge or Haste, which give you an actual additional attack action rather than an additional attack on a given action. This interpretation is supported by the wording of the Duel Wielder feat, which explicitly allows you to draw or stow two weapons.
However this interpretation prevents some gameplay options that would seem desirable, and the wording could be taken differently. There are two particular situations I would expect the game to support: A true dual-wielding character that has the multi-attack feature should be able to draw and attack with two weapons on their first turn in combat. That is, someone that intends to use one sword in each hand and is able to make two attacks should be able to make one with each sword without needing to wait an entire round to draw the second one. The other situation is someone that specializes in throwing daggers or axes should be able to draw and throw as many throwable weapons as they have attacks for, just as someone with a bow can draw as many arrows as they need to. Throwing is NOT included in "unequipping", so after a throw you wouldn't have a weapon equipped but should be able to equip a new one if you can make another attack.
This interpretation relies on the specific wording of "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" which may imply that you can do this along with ANY attack that is part of the attack action, rather than meaning you can do it once as part of the action period. If it was intended to be one equip/unequip per action, why wouldn't it be worded "you can... as part of this action." Interestingly, in neither interpretation could one conclude that you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of a Bonus Action. Assuming that there aren't any additional rules regarding bonus action attacks that aren't contained in the properties mentioned, there is no allowance for a character to draw a weapon as part of a bonus action attack but there IS allowance for them to do so with a Nick attack since it is part of the Attack Action.
Let's consider the implications of this interpretation: If you wield two weapons in two hands and do not have extra-attack (Rogue for instance) you can draw one weapon as part of the attack action, but can NOT draw one as part of the Light property bonus action. If you have access to Nick though, you CAN draw one as part of the Nick attack since it's part of the Action. If you DO have extra-attack, you can draw one weapon on attack one, and another on attack two, the second attack might be made using either weapon. You could then use the bonus action attack of the Light property if it applies, or if you have Nick you could do it without a BA and then potentially stow either weapon (for some reason). If you have the Duel Wielder feat, someone without extra-attack could draw two weapons as part of their single attack on their attack action, then use the BA of the Light property OR use the extra attack of the Nick property AND the BA or the DW feat. Someone with this feat and Nick mastery can make three attacks on a turn, even without having the extra attack feature. Furthermore, if you are throwing daggers you can draw one with your first attack, draw another with an extra attack if you have it, draw another with Nick if you have that, but could NOT draw an additional dagger for use with the Light extra attack if they do not have Nick. However someone with Duel Wielder could draw two dagger, throw one, then draw another with Nick and throw it, then throw the other dagger they are already holding.
But the same interpretation opens up the following possibilities that are less desirable: If you have extra attack, you could draw a weapon as part of the first attack, then stow it after the second attack, then as part of using the Nick property you could draw a new weapon, and if you have the feat you could also use this weapon for the bonus action because it fulfills the requirements for both Nick and Duel Wielder. All while having the other hand free for a shield. If you do NOT have extra attack, you could draw a single weapon as part of your attack, but if you stowed it after using Nick you would not be able to draw one for your bonus action since bonus actions do not grant the ability to draw a weapon (as far as we know). Duel Wielder won't help you either, because it allows you to draw or stow two at the same time, so if you are only using one hand you couldn't do that. Unless we really want to push the rules, and say that "when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" implies that you could draw two weapons with one hand... Assuming we don't go that route, the feat actually really doesn't help someone that doesn't use both hands, since you can't actually draw any weapons as part of a bonus action attack. I also don't think we can interpret the feat as allowing you to draw one weapon while stowing another. So I don't think you can draw a Light weapon, attack with it, then stow it and draw a second one using the Nick property. What you could do though, is if you start your turn already holding a Light weapon you could attack with it, stow it as part of the attack, draw another Light weapon as part of Nick, and attack with it, then also attack with it again as a BA from Duel Wielder. Then on the next round, you would start with that second weapon already equipped, and be able to do the same thing swapping back.
What I think is interesting though, is that in all the weird options, Duel Wielder isn't really the issue - Nick is. If not for Nick, you wouldn't be able to use Light and Duel Wielder at the same time, since you only get one Bonus Action. And since Nick is an extension of the Light property, not of a "two weapon fighting" rule, perhaps this IS intentional? After all the idea is these weapons are LIGHT and therefore really easy to work with, maybe they did mean for this to be possible - you can just swap weapons in and out if they happen to be Light because well... they're small, and they don't do as much damage anyway. Nick or not, you do less damage with that extra attack. Duel Wielder is most beneficial if you actually do use two weapons at the same time, since you can draw both even without having extra attack or Nick, and one of them doesn't actually need to be Light. Also interestingly Light/Nick do not specify Melee, but the second weapon for the feat must be Melee.
Good summery, but I didn't see you mention that the thrown property allows one to draw as part of the attacks separately from the draw provided by the attack action.
@@brettmajeske3525 Yeah, that throws a bit of a wrench in the works. It didn't say that in 2014, but a while I was replying to another comment I happened to look at the UA and noticed it did there. Assuming that's in the 2024 book, it does call the interpretation into question a bit. However, I think that the wording "when you make an attack as part of this action" still just makes no sense if they didn't mean for you to be able to do it for EACH attack. Why did they include so many extra words? They could cut "when you make an attack" from that line and it would clearly mean once per action. Those extra words don't clarify anything, nor do they impose a meaningful limitation (there's no reason to specify that you can't draw a weapon without attacking, because A. sure you can, and B. it's the attack action an attack was implied). So the only reason for those five words to take up space, is if they are supposed to indicate something not otherwise obvious - that the ability to draw/stow a weapon is tied to the attack itself, not the action. Also, the thing about Thrown could just be to make sure you can throw it as part of a bonus action, reaction, or any other situation that might allow you to make an attack that isn't specifically the "Attack Action".
@@Lord_zeel Between the mention in the Thrown weapon property and the extra draw from Two Weapon Fighting, it certain implies one draw per attack action. Needs clarification.
@Lord_zeel, I have other interpretation, as both light property and dual wielder feat says you get one extra attack as bonus action, I think DW feat gives just another one attack as bonus action, allowing you making 2 attacks as bonus action when fighting light weapon. Nothings says against it, Monks do even 3 attacks as bonus action at 10 lvl, so allowing 2 for fighter seems reasonable. Nick is not need to do those attacks, Nick is need to free up bonus action for something other than attack. What's more I wonder isn't Nick blocking DW as it says one extra attack only (but I would rule RAI it was to move bonus action attacks to attack action and DW feat just expand this by 1), other way using Nick is always worse than Vex (and I would rule this as specific from feat over general form weapon rules).
As far as damage modifiers go.
Am I to understand that it would go (At level 1):
Attack with modifier -> Nick attack no modifier -> Bonus Action Attack no modifier ?
My take away here is this: You take the Attack Action. Then you make an attack (lowercase, also a d20 test). Whenever you make an attack you can can either Equip/Unequip as part of that attack (again lowercase). When you make the Attack Action, you make the choice of an attack roll (lower case) or an Unarmed Strike. (Important thing here that I now realize and haven't seen mentioned before is you don't even need to Unequip a weapon to make an Unarmed Strike and can still have a weapon in your hand and still do it.) Any time you attack, you get the choice to Equip/Unequip during each attack, with the the caveat of choosing when you do it (before or after the attack). If you have multiple attacks, you get to choose before or after those extra attacks if you Equip or Unequip. So all of this video is pretty valid.
Also it's further backed up by the Fighter having like 4 Weapon Masteries they can use (not sure of the true number, just trying to remember what was in the UA and on the videos Crawford did. I know they have more than other martials), and even more in further levels, while other martial classes have less. The Fighter is supposed to be the "Tactician" of the battle field and able to control the field based on what weapon they choose to wield and is ultimately the guy carrying around a golf club bag full of weapons that they get to choose which one they use at any given time, so they are now are by RAW encouraged to switch up weapons between attacks to lean into the Weapon Mastery Properties (This is a summarized version of what Crawford said in a video on the Fighters).
The nick feature seems like it will work really well with the 2024 beastmaster ranger. You get get all your attacks, and still have your bonus action freed up to have fido attack.
I play a beast barbarian in 2014 5e that occasionally uses two handaxes with his claws. Outside of the setup to rage have one handaxe equipped for next turn, starting at 5th level I can use my second turn to attack 2x with claws, equip 2nd handaxe, extra attack with 1st axe and offhand with the 2nd. Next turn, I stow one axe and setup the 4 piece combo again.
I think Enhanced Dual Wielding Feat simply takes the "light property" requirement off the "other" melee weapon used. Scimitar Attack, Scimitar Attack, Mace Attack, freed up Bonus Action from Nick on Scimitar (not a fourth attack)
All of this horrific design around weapon wielding would be so much cleaner if:
- The Light property said you could draw a weapon as part of the attack made with it, as the Thrown property now does, and
- If the once per turn object interaction rules stated you could SWAP any one weapon, rather than merely draw or stow. This would let your longsword Fighter take out a warhammer against a skeleton, or benefit from a couple weapon masteries like Trip followed by Vex.
- The new rule for draw/stow with Attack didn't exist.
The only way to cycle masteries would be with fast-drawing weapons, and great weapons can't go into goofy rotation loops whilst feeling like you are an actual weapon master who uses the best tools to their fullest extent.
The TWF rules probably do need to reference "your other hand" as well, though.
Man, they need to clean this up, but I will do my best to explain how I see it.
So first, "Light Property" and " Dual wielder" do the same thing.
"LP" gives u an Bonus Action extra attack with weapons that are also light.
"DW" gives u a bonus action extra attack if a weapon has the "LP".
Both compete for the bonus action since "DW" does not affect what the "LP" does only require the weapon to have it as we can see how they worded "Nick" that does directly affect "LP".
So when "Nick" moves the "LP"extra attack to the attack action it frees up the bonus action for the"DW" extra atrack.
This only work with 2 light weapons because "Nick" and "LP" require a diffrent light weapon to work.
That is the best that I have come up with on how they interact with each other.
To be honest they should just roll Dual Wielding into Two Weapon Fighting style to make easier to 2 weapon fight if that's how u want to play. Makes no sense to need 2 weapon fighting style and Dual Wielding just to make it usable
They only do the same thing when it comes to getting a bonus attack action. I don't believe they stack since Dual Wielder isn't separate from that actions of the LP, but encompasses it. But hey if that's how DM's want to interpret it.
@The_RealWilliam I did not say they stack . I said they competed for the BA. U have to choose which one use for your BA. Dual Wielder does not alter what the Light Property does or it would be worded like Nick that says the Extra attack from Light Property is moved. Dual Wielder only requires a weapon to have the Light Property for it to work.
I had a fighter in my campaign with 2 weapon fighting style and the dual wielder feat. Its was really powerful, esp at lower levels
I read this as when you do the ATTACK ACTION you can equip or unequip one weapon. You only the the ATTACK ACTION one time even if you may be able to attack more then one time in that same action.
I visualize Nick as a simultaneous attack, regardless of how it's worded. As in its main hand attack (extra) and then both hands attack (Nick) and then an extra bonus action off hand attack. That would remove the ability to draw+attack for the Nick off hand attack.
An Attack Action and a Bonus Action are two separate things, they are different Actions. Therefore, making an attack with a Bonus Action IS NOT 'making an Attack Action' with a Bonus Action - that is a misconception. So, you can make an attack with an Attack Action and make an attack with a Bonus Action, but the Bonus Action attack is not an 'Attack Action'. (Side note, this also means you cannot 'dual wield' to make two attacks as part of a Reaction, as attacking with a Reaction is also NOT an 'Attack Action').
So, a 5th level fighter with two scimitars (Nick property) takes the Attack Action and can make two attacks. The Light (and Nick) property then allows a single extra attack to be made as part of that Attack Action, so a total of three attacks for one Attack Action (and they still have their Bonus Action).
[[[Does Dual Wielder feat give a fourth attack? Technically...I think, yes. So, the Light property and the Dual Wielder feat both use the same language to give their respective extra attacks; However, the language of the Nick property specifically only references the Light property. So, the 5th Level Fighter takes the Attack Action for two attacks, the Light and Nick properties allow an extra attack as part of that Attack Action, while the Dual Wielder feat allows and extra attack as a Bonus Action. Though this only works with a Light main weapon and a weapon with the Nick property as the secondary weapon. It is the Nick property that allows it to be part of the Attack Action, otherwise both Light and feat are competing for the one Bonus Action you can make.]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see replies below)
Also note that you can only draw/stow once as part of an Attack Action. Meaning, therefore, that you CANNOT draw/stow as part of a Bonus Action. Thus you cannot 'dual wield' with a shield (except, I guess, if you want to throw daggers with a shield). The Thrown property crucially allows you to draw the weapon 'as part of the attack', allowing you to effectively draw and throw two daggers (Thrown, Light and Nick properties) for a single Attack Action with a single hand.
(Disclaimer, this next bit is NOT SERIOUS) Here's a thought though, isn't throwing a weapon 'technically' unequipping it?... Throwing is just 'dropping at velocity', right? So, you can draw a dagger, throw a dagger, draw a dagger and then... not throw it, as you've had your one 'unequip' for this Attack Action? It says unequipping includes (subtext implying 'but not limited to') sheathing, stowing or dropping the weapon; after a dagger is thrown, it is no longer equipped, it is in fact literally unequipped... However, I don't think it sticking out of the chest of the bad guy should count as them 'equipping' it.
[[[Actually, thinking about it, you wouldn't need the Dual Wielder feat to get four attacks. 5th level fighter with two scimitars (Light and Nick). Takes the Attack Action, can make two attacks. First attack is with scimitar A, allowing an extra attack with scimitar B (the extra attack is made with a DIFFERENT weapon); second attack is then made with scimitar B, allowing an extra attack with scimitar A (the extra attack is made with a DIFFERENT weapon). That works, right?]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see replies below)
New rules say you can draw/stow before or after each attack made with the attack action.
@@LexisEvertiedneed the dual wielder feat to give you the BA attack
@@solarkhan484 You're right, the way it's worded means drawing/stowing is part of the attack made as part of the Attack Action (as opposed to just the Action itself). You still can't draw/stow as part of a Bonus Action though.
However... given the wording to the Thrown property AND Dual Wielder feat (about drawing as part of the attack/drawing two instead of one), I do not think that that is the intent (otherwise these exceptions are redundant). I believe the 'general rule' remains to only draw/stow once, the 'specific exception' of the Extra Attack feature is you get to make two attacks (as there is no mention of changing the general 'draw/stow once' rule).
@@solarkhan484 "need the dual wielder feat to give you the BA attack"
[[[If you are referring to the 'two scimitars' example, I don't think so? The Bonus Attack comes from the Light weapon property, the Nick property makes it part of the Attack Action instead of needing a Bonus Action. The only stipulation of the Light property is the extra attack has to be from a different weapon, scimitar A and scimitar B are different weapons. So, with Extra Attacks, the first attack is made with scimitar A, triggering an extra attack from scimitar B. The second attack is made with scimitar B, triggering an extra attack from scimitar A. Both extra attacks are part of the same Attack action thanks to the scimitar's Nick property.]]] (Edit: I now believe this is wrong, see immediately below)
(EDIT) Actually...After reading closer, I've changed my mind:
The specific wording of the Light property, "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus action later on the same turn." I think this explicitly limits you to ONE extra attack, no matter how many attacks are made with a Light weapon. Similarly, because of the wording, I think the Dual Wielder feat *overlaps* with the wording of the Light property, still only producing the singular ONE extra attack. There is no 'source' from which these extra attacks come, so you cannot get one extra attack from one and a second extra attack from another.
I think that the working is weird on equip and unequip to acomodate for thrown weapons, for them to be vale to draw with each attack.
i am trying to get into dnd and learn the rules. i mostly understood the video, but still not completely sure. could i go one level into ranger get hunter's mark and weapon mastery nick on a sickle, 5 levels into monk getting extra attack and flurry of blows, and deal (assuming i cast hunters mark the previous turn) (attack 1) sickle+dex+h mark. (attack 2) sickle+dex+h mark (nick) sickle+h mark (bonus action) flurry of blows, (strike+dex+h mark)×2
The wording for equipping and unequipping weapons is absolutely per attack. The wording went through two updates during the OneD&D testing process, and in the 2nd iteration, it was explicitly for each attack, and remained that way here.
While the wording is a bit different, the wording is still pretty clear: "You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this (the Attack) action". Making your first attack is making an attack as part of this action. Making your second attack is making an attack as part of this action. If it were once per action, it would say something to the effect of "When you take this action, you can draw or stow one weapon. You can do this before or after any attacks you make with this action."
Dtaw/stow was written this way for throwing builds. Each attack as part of this action, not each attack action.
18:14 yeah, you can only switch weapons one time.
there is a For Example: in Light weapon property that says you are using the off hand for the bonus attack
15:19 can't believe Nick would say something like that
You have to unequip before or after the attack action not during. And nick is during the action. So you cannot use nick. With just the light property though you should be able to use the bonus weapon attack. But to do this you would have to be able unequip and draw at the same time. That means you need duel wielding.
Close! It's before or after the attack, not the Attack action. You get to equip or unequip each time you make an attack as part of the Attack action. The Attack action is not a duration or an event. Instead, you spend an action on Attack to be granted a number of attacks you can make during that turn. Think of it like buying tokens from a vending machine, that you can spend to win fabulous prizes!** When and how you spend those attacks is up to you! In fact, you could take the Attack action and make NO ATTACKS AT ALL. It's a "you can" feature.
**The fabulous prize is missing on most of them anyway, because RNG hates you. :P lol Just kidding, honestly my luck tends to balance out pretty well session to session.
am I right if that wepon mastery nick works?
1. first attack of light weapon (first action)
2. second attack of light weapon (cuz it's light, so for now theoretically its bonus action)
3. second attack is count as first action because i have nick weapon mastery?
4. so now, thoretically i have free bonus action and i can attack again my light weapon?
at the end i have 3 attack in one turn. am i right?
My solution for attack bloat is to give them an extra damage die instead of the extra attack feature. If that’s not sweet enough a +1 to hit can soften the exchange but this speeds up combat significantly and also makes the players feel epic.
Whether it works with the shield or not, I won’t allow it.
I will allow the 4 attacks using the feat and Nick, even just to make it a viable weapon.
What sucks though, is that fulfilling the fantasy of dual wielding the same weapon type is not optimal. It’s much better to use a non-nick weapon like a handaxe over two daggers for example, because you will lose out on a second weapon mastery that way.
True...but a 9th level fighter can use Push, Slow or Sap in place of a weapon's usual mastery...so there's that.
Still better to use different weapons though.
Also can no longer use two non-light weapons even with the DW feat, and they've taken away the +1AC
@@lionheart8503 yeah, and doesn’t help the Ranger or the Rogue, the classes most likely to dual wield.
I just wanted to use 2 handaxes on my barbarian, but they have the vex property which I don't need because of rage advantage. 2 handaxes looks more wild/cool than 2 Scimitars on a Barb.
@@Charles-ij1ow yes! Same! I was hoping this updated would make two handaxe builds more viable, but alas :( It’s one of my favorite archetypes as well, very viking like
@@maxokaan Yea F it, I'm going 2 HandAxe for flavor.
Zealot Barb bc I don't need to use Reckless attack to get the bonus att dmg. So then Vex on handaxe is useful and can attack as bonus action because they both light and can throw them. Then when I hit 50% health I'll use Warrior of the Gods to heal for 4d12 and be really pissed. Then bring out the Greataxe and reckless attack until the battle is over.
You guys are only discovering this now ? i know this since the playtests... I was planning using a monk for this because of bonus action attacks
Also on my tables there is always a bladesinger dual wielding,
im playing one now I grabbed weapon mastery feat for nick . its pretty good i can do ok dmg even if im low on ki thanks to that
Can you equip or unequip a weapon as part of the bonus action, or is it only part of the attack action?
IT is only mentioned for the Attack Action.
I have seen plenty of rogues wielding two melee weapons to guarantee sneak attack if they miss with the first weapon.
@NerdImmersion, I think you are wrong on few levels. First, there is nowhere limit how many attacks one can do as bonus action (Monk do 3 at lvl 10) and both light property and dual wielder says you do "extra" attack - so you not need Nick weapon to do 4 attacks at all (you just do 2 attacks as bonus action from light property thanks to dual wielder feat). Second, and this is more tricky, as with Vex weapon it is obvious that we do 4 attacks at level 5 (2 as attack action, 2 as bonus action), the Nick has sentence "You can make this extra attack only once per turn" (this sentence is need to not double your attacks as each attack with light weapon would give you +1 transferred immediately to attack action) it is referring to attack from light weapon property, RAW blocking attack from dual wielder feat (which is also attack from attacking first with light weapon). RAI Nick was going to transfer bonus action attacks once per turn to attack action, so either we can decide feat is "specific over general" and with Nick you do all attacks as attack action and have bonus action free for something that is not attack, or decide that using Nick weapon allow only 1 extra attack from light property and blocks dual wielder. Interpreting as you do is without any sense as Nick purpose was to free bonus action for cunning action or spellcasting, and using Vex would be outright better if you want use your bonus action for extra attacks anyway.
I've seen several dual-wielders through the last decade. It isn't every game, but I'd say about a quarter of them have had off-hand attackers. I even had a character that enthusiasticly dual-wielded slings for 20 levels because no one realized that didn't work in the rules.
In terms of the multiple attacks question I do believe that you’re correct. The Nick property as you said seems to fold both hits into one and frees up your BA for other uses or another attack as you showed.
With that said I don’t think you’re correct on the equipping cycle. Given that the wording explicitly states “as part of the attack action” that would preclude you from swapping on your BA hit and your Nick hit as well. A Bonus Action ≠ action which means that you didn’t take the attack action and can’t swap right before or after that hit. The Nick hit is also not the attack action it’s just simply a simultaneous strike that occurs during your original attack action.
From the most in depth analysis on this I have to say that: yes you still have to use two weapons that fit the bill of the abilities outlined before, and no you can’t have a shield while doing a weird weapon cycling idea.
I just like the idea of a dagger throwing fighter moving around with a shield and keep drawing and throwing as he moves around the field or javelins for that matter. I don't think it was suppose to complicate matters but open up more options, the only thing it changes is two weapon fighting with two longswords now.
Technicaly you can equip or unequip a weapon as part of each attack, but you only have 1 free object interaction per turn, 2 if you have the dual wielder feat, but so you cen unequip one weapon then equip another, but not do it again on the same turn, so you can do 2 attacks with one weapon unequip it and then equip another weapon, then use nick and dual wielder bonus action attack, but you can't unequip and equip on every attack.
I have the 2024 players uandbook where does it say u can equip/unequip as part of the attack?
I would assume, in light of the example "throwing individual weapons, and each weapon being drawn with each attack, as stated between Jeremy and Chris", that the equip or unequip is per individual attack.
Thrown weapons can be drawn as part of the attack separate from drawing on the attack action.
@@brettmajeske3525 So you are saying I could throw multiple daggers, but I can't attack twice and draw a new dagger for the nick attack?
Ok. So I will attack, throw the dagger as my second attack, and then draw a fresh dagger for the nick attack.
I still have 3 attacks and a shield, or a fourth attack with two weapon fighting.
@@plixeon Throwing multiple weapons works with one hand works RAW. Melee two weapon fighting with a shield certainly needs clarification.
What happens to the Weapon Master properties on Off-Handed Weapons? What do you have Nick on both weapons? Does that mean you get 4 attacks w/o using your BA?
TL:DR. I'm a rules lawyer, play the game how you want
A little late, but... We will examine this in layers. We will take the "Attack" action that has defined rules. You can make one attack roll, and you can equip or unequip one weapon as part of this action. The instances where "one" is used and "a/an" are different. "One" is used for quantity, "a/an" is used as an article. This would lead us to understand thas the basic attack action allows one singular attack roll, and one singular instance of equipping or unequipping a weapon, but not equip and unequip.
Now we'll talk about exceptions to the rules. In d&d, exceptions to rules always supercede the rule itself. In other words, if an ability says it, it happens even if it breaks a rule. Example being the Extra Attack feature. It says you can attack twice instead of once for an Attack action on your turn. This feature supercedes the established rule that only one attack can be made during the Attack action. A similar rule can be seen under the Light property of a weapon. When the attack action is taken on your turn and you attack with a light weapon, you are able to make an extra attack as a bonus action on the same turn as long as the extra attack is with a different light weapon. This bonus action is not an extra Attack action, but a different attack roll. If a character with Extra Attack were using a light weapon, they could make use of this by making two attacks during the Attack action, then a third attack as a bonus action as long as the previous conditions were met. Interestingly, the bonus action attack granted by the light feature doesn't care if both attacks from the Attack action were made with the same weapon or different ones, only that the bonus action attack is used by a different weapon than the one being considered by the Light property. This means that if you had two bonus actions, they could both be used to make an additional attack as long as the requirements for the Light property were met more than once
Discussing the Nick mastery, it is also a rules exception. It moves the extra attack from the Light property from a bonus action granted by the Light property to being an additional attack as part of the Attack action once per turn. Using the example from before, with Extra Attack you would be able to make two attacks as part of the Attack action, the Light property would grant an additional attack as a bonus action if the conditions were met, and the Nick mastery would move the additional attack to part of the Attack action if conditions were met. Incidentally, since the Light property can be triggered by any attack with a light weapon during the Attack action, even the extra attack moved to the Attack action by the Nick mastery. This means the Light property will grant an additional extra attack that can be used as a bonus action for a total of four attacks during the turn: Three as part of the Attack action, and one as a bonus action.
Finally, returning to using a shield. Since the Attack action grants the ability to equip or unequip once before or after any attack made with the attack action, you would need to have multiple actions to utilize the features described above. If you met the conditions for the Light property while weilding a shield, you could unequip the shield or weapon before or after any attack made during the Attack action. Then if you used the Action Surge feature to use an additional action other than a magic action, you could equip a weapon as part of the Attack action. If you unequiped the weapon after the last attack was made during the initial Attack action, equiped a weapon as a part of the second Attack action, and the requirements were met for the Light proerty and the Nick mastery you could make three attacks as part of the second Attack action and finally an additional attack as a bonus action. Basically, it's only feasible if two actions are taken, but it works as far as I know
I play a halfling battle master who fights with two short swords. So the two weapon fighting style is a given. I also did pick the dual wielder feat, but it basically just adds one AC (technically, I could dual wield rapiers, but those are not the weapons I have). Now you might say: 'Idiot, that is not worth a feat. Hell, a two point stat increase in dex would have been far better.' And you would be right. However, I never optimize characters. I think of personalities, backstories, and make the choices accordingly, and do not look at effectiveness at all. My halfling fights with two short swords because that is how he was trained to fight (not going to go into the backstory, but it fits the character). He has the feat because he is a dual wielder. It would makes sense he would have this trait through experience.
Thank you! Sometimes you build a character because that’s the character you want to play, not because you’re always trying to do the most dps
My character was given a spe ial longsword so i went with dual wielder as the mele damage dealer of the group. Every once in a blue moon o got a crit and piled on the smite.
I believe you are able to make a 4th attack with the dw feat. Otherwise it would have stated that the light property option has been adjusted to allow all non 2 handed weapons instead of spelling it out with its own seperate sounding ruling. It just was badly explained.
And 4 weapon dueling with a shield in your off hand makes sense to me. Attack with light weapon, stow weapon, draw another light weapon (pref with nick) as part of your extra attack and attack with said weapon for your extra attack, nick attack and dw-bonus attack.
General two weapon fighting (not the style/ feat) is contained within the Light property in 2024.
literally trying to help my wife build a dual wielding psi warrior as i watch this
Don’t conflate monks number of attacks with a cost with fighters resourceless attacks. If you care about balance yes the one costing something should get more.
Could you list the weapons that have the Light and Nick properties? I don't have access to the 2024 PHB. This would help me figure out if using the weapons be worth it vs other options.
Running with a loaded crossbow could have some fun consequences if the player rolled a one-on attack or something. For some odd reason, I can see the second crossbow accidentally firing if the character trips or falls.
In the Unearthed Arcana: dagger, light hammer, sickle, and scimitar. Note that Nick is listed as explicitly only available on Light weapons, so if it has Nick it must be Light. Of these weapons, two also have Thrown and two also have Finesse. Dagger has all four properties. Note also that the Hand Crossbow is the only non-thrown ranged weapon with the Light property so for purposes of Nick it is the only option for making the extra attack ranged. The DW feat also specifies the BA attack is with a melee weapon. As such only the Hand Crossbow is ever eligible here, but you can't use it for both. You could use a Hand Crossbow to trigger the BA of either property, but since it doesn't have Nick you still can't use both. You can however use the Light BA to fire a second Hand Crossbow. Given its versatility, Dagger seems like the best choice of weapon if you intend to use Nick and DW as it would allow you to utilize both feature either in melee or at a range since DW only says it needs to be a melee weapon, it doesn't say you can't throw it.
I read it as you can equip OR unequip a weapon during the attack. Not both.
Dual wielder Hunter, goes 4*2d6 attacks. 4d6 from his dual wielding and nick, the other 4d6 is from Hunter's Mark.
I think people are not getting the part about nick. It states "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn." to me this is reading as a replacement of the light weapon properties bonus action attack with the nick properties is attack during the Attack action not giving you both. The feat is giving you an extra attack in your bonus action like monks flurry of blow which has a 4th level resticion on it considering this lines up pretty well with the characters that get multi attack of a single class character.
Sounds okay, except not being able to add your ability modifiers makes it kind of weak, Tavern Brawler on the surface looks great for a Monk, but since it only allows you to use your strength modifier, you would be missing out on 50% of the feature for damage.
@@The_RealWilliamI dont have a book so I cant tell unless you post it word for word in the comments like I did off of what ted showed
@@The_RealWilliam a Maul is a 2d6 weapon ths can be a +3 damage with a str 16 our ever loved drow ranger has 2 Scimitar that do 1d6 so the first is 1d6+3 and the second is 1d6 for a total of 2d6+3 the only diffence is 2 attack rools. Why do you need an damage mod or should the Maul ger double there mod because they are putting the force of both arms into the attack.
@@JCinLapel I don't understand your comment. I would want that +3 damage that I am missing. Especially with multiple attacks.
when it come to damage economy both "attack actions" have a modifier of +3 damage. One does it with one big weapon not two smaller ones. your primary arm is the modifier not the weapon in its hand. In the Maul it is part of holding the Maul in the two weapons it is your first attack. You are both even and you are no longer losing your bonus action to do it with nick. if both your arms are +3 modifier what should the Maul using both arms only get one bonus not both arms like you want for both your weapons
We play at very different tables, I've always had dual wielders.
Same here, basically all the rangers at my tables always preferred dual wielding
@@Emanuele_Sacchi in mine a lot of rogues and bards. Old people who think it's still like the old days mostly 🤣
I've only seen Rogues do it and personally I think it's usually a mistake when they do (unless they are a Swashbuckler). Rogues are better off disengaging and moving away from the target than making a second attack. Unless they missed with their first attack and are certain a sneak attack would kill the target.
@@dabeef2112 as I DM I kept trying to suggest to the rogue player that disengage and move out was optimal but they wanted to roll dice and stab another time. Just goes to show : players enjoy doing more stuff even if it's not optimal!! :)
My group also have dual wielders many times. Including a pesky swashbuckler that was routinely doing 40+ points of damage per round on 3rd level, and I had to talk to the player because that was too much for that level.
Some people have never played 3ed, just wait till the monster manual comes out and all of the changes applied to characters now applies to monsters.
A Sage Advice column should have been released with the book to confirm all these kinds of queries
Seriously. I know that they want to keep the book slim. I get it. It's already big, and printing costs per page, even if it's realistically not that much. But they have this entire DnDBeyond website, which they're already releasing errata on. They could have real play examples, optimization discussions, and keep a compendium, of "yes, it can do this" and "no, it can't do that" clarifications. It would make for great reading and ~actually bring value to their digital product.~
Should also be noted that the Two weapon fighting style specifically states you get to apply your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack you gained from the Light Property.
The extra attack you gain from the Feat is from using a weapon with the light property and not from the property itself.
You do not get to apply your ability mod to the extra attack granted by the Feat.
The real question that needs clarification is whether you get 2 attacks on your bonus action if you have 2 light weapons that don't have the Nick property.
*cough*Dual wielding hand crossbows*cough*
You only have one bonus action, so you can't use the Light weapon property to make multiple attacks. You can use Nick to move the Light weapon property attack into the Attack action, and then use your bonus action for something else, like the Dual Wielder attack, or a smite.
@RaethFennec except Monk can now make up to 3 attacks with their bonus action so being able to make 2, especially with the wording of the Feat "an extra attack on your bonus action", it's not out of the realm.
And again there's a difference.
One attack is granted due to the Light weapon property itself and the other is an attack granted from using a Light weapon.
It’s basically the extra attack feature specifically for your bonus action, dual wielding attack.
At least that’s what it reads like to me.
In 8 years of playing dnd, I only had an artificer dual wielding their guantlets at my table.
Two weapon fighting with Conjour minor elementals .. or anything that does additional damage for every extra melee attack
I think you're exactly right with the light weapon, nick, and dual wielder going together, and giving you 4 attacks in total. But I believe in terms of equipping/unequipping weapons, you are only able to draw one weapon as part of your action--as it specifies one weapon as part of this action, not one weapon as part of the attack. Also, it doesn't make sense if it's part of an attack, when you have the dual wielding feat that gives you quick draw with two weapons at a time. So the idea that you can do things with a shield and draw multiple weapons doesn't work. In fact, if all your weapons are stowed at the start of combat, only a character with the Dual Wielding feat would be able to attack with two weapons in the first round--as they're able to draw two weapons as part of their action, and not just one. Without it, you can only draw one weapon, and will need to wait your next turn to draw the second. I think this is why the equipping/unequipping part says "If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don't need to use it for that attack," as you can use it for your Bonus action instead.
It says "you can... when you make an attack as part of this action" not "when you take this action" or just "as part of this action" but specifically "when you make an attack as part of this action" without any specific limit on how many time that can apply. It's equip OR unequip, so you can't draw and stow in one attack, and it's ONE weapon, so you can't draw two as part of one attack (without the feat) but the wording seems to allow this on each attack that is part of an attack action. Note that this excludes Bonus Action attacks though! It seems like you can draw a weapon for each attack you get in your attack action, but the BA would need to be with a weapon you are already holding.
More rules, slower game. Less rules, more arguments. Kind of balances out in the end.
But can you stow or draw a weapon as part of the Bonus action attack? It does say as part of the attack action but that bonus action attack is not part of the attack action. It is when it is using the Nick property though.
15 min mark. Yes I agree you can't get the nick working with a shield.
Nick abilities becomes part of the attack action. One attack action gives you one unequip or equip. This is not each attack but each attack action.
The two weapon fighting feat gives you a later bonus action attack, if you meet the requirements on the first attack. . This will let you equip or unequip as well, as it is an attack action.
Crossbow action could work for one attack per turn players. Shoot, draw new crossbow and shoot next turn.
Is this wrong?
I think the important thing to remember is that you get one action, one bonus action, one reaction.
If several effects give you a bonus action, that just gives you a choice of which to take. For instance, you can’t use a bonus action to drink a potion and then use one to smite.
The only exception is Action Surge.
My reading is that you make one attack with a light weapon, stow that, then draw your nick weapon, and you can make Extra attack, Nick attack, and Dual wielder attack all with the second weapon. So I think the interpretation of using a shield works as written even if that isn’t the intention. 8th Level champion fighter with Two Weapon Fighting and Dueling and capped Dex is making 4 attacks with a shield that average 10.5 damage on a hit. 6 with action surge.
@@TheJourneyman03 It makes a longsword obsolete. I don't think the intention was to be able to use two weapon fighting and a shield. But the rules support it.
They really should have released the actual rules in an UA document to avoid all this.
@@bradleyhurley6755 All of these rules were in UA 7. I remember a video at the time discussing this exact issue, and it wasn’t changed for the final print.
@@TheJourneyman03 okay.
I would say that is good evidence they didn't really read the feedback.
I've only ever had one player play a dual scimitar rogue. and after the changes to the light and adding the nick Property. I've ended up letting them attack the 4 times with no use of their bonus action. and it changed nothing for the balance of my games. they get to play the quick hit attacker that can still dip out of combat with a bonus action disengage.
Nick specifies that it is applicable when you take the extra attack of the light property. The qualifications of the light property are that you have a light weapon equipped in one hand and a different light weapon in another hand.
Nick was specifically written to extend from the light property.
Dual wielding extends from the the light property, so it has no direct relationship with Nick and is incomparable with Nick by the philosophy of “the specific trumps the general” language.
That is the interpretation I expect to survive - but we shall see.
Getting 3 attacks with the dual wielder feat plus the nick mastery seems super reasonable. Especially since you would also need the two weapon fighting fighting style to add your ability mod to the damage. Its a lot of investment on top of having your hands full (so no shield).
What is this "two weapon fighting style"?
@@The_RealWilliam It's a fighting style in the players handbook (2014)
Two-Weapon Fighting (PHB). When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
@@X20Adam Oh it's a fighting style feature of the Fighter. When I see something referring to fighting, my old school mind thinks of all of former subclasses of Fighters (Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin).
Does Nick require you too have 2 light weapons if you have Duel Weapons feat?
Can I have Nick with Duel Weapons feat with Scimitar and Morningstar.
Level 4
Attack Morningstar, Nick with Scimitar, DW bonus action Morningstar?
Can someone please explain the benefits of duel weilder if you already get the light weapon property benefits, im reading it as getting 4 attacks at lvl 5 either way
You only have 1 bonus action per turn.
So with 2 attack at level 5 would be 3 possible hits with light weapon. A, A, bonus action with light weapon.
Nick saves your bonus action from being used so,
A, A, N, and still have a bonus action.
So to get 4 attacks at level 5 you would need light weapons and nick for
A, A, N, bonus action attack with light weapon
Nick can only be used once per turn.
All of this stuff about exploiting the drawing the stowing rules just seems like an attempt to have a shield out in a situation that most people don't picture it in. I would rule regardless of the wording that if you are fighting with two weapons you have them both out and using both at the same time. If a player in one of my games tried to explain how they could do all this while still having a shield, I would say "you are a sword and boarder or dual wielder. Please pick one."
I think I have had a dual wielder in all 4 of my last campaigns
Great video, thanks for the update! But the mic gurgling and spiking is really making it hard to listen...
I made a dual-wielding kensei/fighter in 5E using twin katanas (longswords), but it was sub-optimal. Still had fun, but not worth the feat investment to optimize it.
Attack with dagger with light property -1 attack
Light property also a extra bonus action attack - 1 attack
Total of 2 attack thus far
Nick allows you to move “the extra attack” to the attack action - still 2 attacks, but 1 open bonus action (nick is only one per turn)
Dual weilder (lvl 4 or Dex 13) light property attack still
Add an extra attack as a bonus action…..now the bonus action may be a attack again - 3 attacks total thus far
No more light properties to use now because you don’t have a bonus, bonus action can only use Nick once per turn.
I thin a Lvl one melee character with Dex of 13 can do 3 attacks
Does Nick require you too have 2 light weapons if you have Duel Weapons feat?
Can I have Nick with Duel Weapons feat with Scimitar (light) and Morningstar (not light).
Level 4 with DW
Attack Morningstar, Nick with Scimitar, DW bonus action Morningstar?
@
Interesting….I’m going to have and write this one out…..three things going on here
Light,Nick and Dual Wielding
@@Charles-ij1ow
I’d say RAW no unfortunately
Light property says bonus action with a different light weapon
Nick says the extra attack using the light property can move to the Action
Dual welder says you can make an extra attack after a light weapon….. can be any weapon here other than two-handed.
However scimitars do the same amount of damage as a mace.
Finally…. Maybe a tricky way to do it.
Both scimitars out…. Attack( stow weapon)….attack with second scimitar….draw your mace and attack for the extra Dual wielder attack?
You couldn’t keep this up I don’t think (stowing and drawing your weapons in the proper order)
Maybe?