In Argentina, Casella edition was the most popular, which recommends 2-4-3. Interesting that that Barry Cooper says that in 1800, the standard way to play mordents was like triplets.
Thank you! It would be super helpful, if you had a camera showing your fingers from the top. For those of us who do not have a teacher it is sometimes really helpful to see which keys exactly are played in order to verify one's deciphering of the notes in the sheet.
Can you please explain all these trills in the second theme of the first movement? These two bars are kinda clear but what about the rest or do you play 2-4-1 throughout? I'm a bit ocnfused, Schnabel and Henle have the 3d finger in a bunch of places (I guess in order to not play black keys with the thumb) using 3-5 I think in some places. What do you think about htis?
There is another issue with these trills. The Schirmer edition insists they should NOT be played as triplets and calls that way "trivial". Schirmer wants them played as a pair of demisemis before the main note. Horowitz and Gilels play it that way but Richter (and SO many others, including you) plays them as triplets. What do you think?
Dear r.i.p Volodia, you raise an important point. It has been many years since I have used Schirmer but I went back to the edition you mention, to find that the triplet trill is indeed called 'tasteless'. Performance editions such as this one (I am assuming you are using the one edited by Bulow and Lebert), have their unquestionable value in representing thoughts and interpretation style preferred by the editors (Bulow was one of Liszt's prominent students). However, the last hundred years have given us tremendous research into the music of the past and some things we simply understand better than editors might have had a chance to understand many years ago. I would personally not worry too much about the advice given in Schirmer edition. You can check an urtext edition below, which aims at presenting only the markings originally indicated by Beethoven (imslp.hk/files/imglnks/euimg/2/24/IMSLP621786-PMLP01410-E621557_144-161-beethoven--sonatas-vol1.pdf) to see that there is no such advice given here by the composer. You can be quite certain that playing this trill starting from the main note, on the beat, together with the left hand note is a safe and well-established way to execute it. I actually love studying old editions. Here is one of the prime examples worth understanding, created by Schnabel: imslp.eu/files/imglnks/euimg/e/e8/IMSLP501860-PMLP1410-Beethoven_(ed._Schnabel)_.13_pathetique.pdf Schnabel recorded all Beethoven sonatas more than once and is considered one of the great performers of this music. We may not play or understand Beethoven's style in the same way today, but still, this edition carries an undisputable value as an experience of musical communication of the past.
Thank you very much for your considered response and I will certainly follow up the links you provided. I personally can only manage the Schirmer trill if I take the sonata at a very steady tempo. For the tempo you yourself demonstrated, there's no way I could safely do anything other than the so-called "tasteless" triplet. So many pianists also do it the triplet way, so I guess - like you said - I shouldn't worry about it; I'm wanting to perform this sonata for my ATCL you see.
In Argentina, Casella edition was the most popular, which recommends 2-4-3. Interesting that that Barry Cooper says that in 1800, the standard way to play mordents was like triplets.
Thank you! It would be super helpful, if you had a camera showing your fingers from the top. For those of us who do not have a teacher it is sometimes really helpful to see which keys exactly are played in order to verify one's deciphering of the notes in the sheet.
Thank you. This might help me achieving a better articulation in a sequence of thrills in a Mozart sonata I play at the moment.
This exercise is a good approach to short trills and mordents, I hope it does help 😊 Which Mozart Sonata are you learning?
Thanks for the tips! I never thought that. It is very useful!
Dear Evel1571, I am glad it was helpful!
Brilliant! Thank you so much. I shall start practising and I think those pointers are very relevant. Thank you again
My pleasure:) Good luck with your practice!
Can you please explain all these trills in the second theme of the first movement? These two bars are kinda clear but what about the rest or do you play 2-4-1 throughout? I'm a bit ocnfused, Schnabel and Henle have the 3d finger in a bunch of places (I guess in order to not play black keys with the thumb) using 3-5 I think in some places. What do you think about htis?
There is another issue with these trills. The Schirmer edition insists they should NOT be played as triplets and calls that way "trivial". Schirmer wants them played as a pair of demisemis before the main note. Horowitz and Gilels play it that way but Richter (and SO many others, including you) plays them as triplets. What do you think?
Dear r.i.p Volodia, you raise an important point. It has been many years since I have used Schirmer but I went back to the edition you mention, to find that the triplet trill is indeed called 'tasteless'.
Performance editions such as this one (I am assuming you are using the one edited by Bulow and Lebert), have their unquestionable value in representing thoughts and interpretation style preferred by the editors (Bulow was one of Liszt's prominent students). However, the last hundred years have given us tremendous research into the music of the past and some things we simply understand better than editors might have had a chance to understand many years ago.
I would personally not worry too much about the advice given in Schirmer edition. You can check an urtext edition below, which aims at presenting only the markings originally indicated by Beethoven (imslp.hk/files/imglnks/euimg/2/24/IMSLP621786-PMLP01410-E621557_144-161-beethoven--sonatas-vol1.pdf) to see that there is no such advice given here by the composer.
You can be quite certain that playing this trill starting from the main note, on the beat, together with the left hand note is a safe and well-established way to execute it.
I actually love studying old editions. Here is one of the prime examples worth understanding, created by Schnabel: imslp.eu/files/imglnks/euimg/e/e8/IMSLP501860-PMLP1410-Beethoven_(ed._Schnabel)_.13_pathetique.pdf
Schnabel recorded all Beethoven sonatas more than once and is considered one of the great performers of this music. We may not play or understand Beethoven's style in the same way today, but still, this edition carries an undisputable value as an experience of musical communication of the past.
Thank you very much for your considered response and I will certainly follow up the links you provided. I personally can only manage the Schirmer trill if I take the sonata at a very steady tempo. For the tempo you yourself demonstrated, there's no way I could safely do anything other than the so-called "tasteless" triplet. So many pianists also do it the triplet way, so I guess - like you said - I shouldn't worry about it; I'm wanting to perform this sonata for my ATCL you see.
Aren’t these mordants and not trills