T.S. Eliot Recites "The Hollow Men"

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ธ.ค. 2024

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  • @etonsworld7860
    @etonsworld7860 2 ปีที่แล้ว +47

    The reading of the final line surprised me yet I loved it. Life ends quickly, suddenly and harshly. He conveys all that in his reading of that final line, panicked pacing and then silence as our world ends.

  • @Konrad_Wallenrod
    @Konrad_Wallenrod 6 ปีที่แล้ว +390

    Thank you SO MUCH for not ruining it with some inappropriate ''dramatic'' music!

    • @MrGottmusik
      @MrGottmusik 5 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I agree Konrad. I listened to Jeremy Irons reading it and the piano noise simply got in the way.

    • @Konrad_Wallenrod
      @Konrad_Wallenrod 5 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@MrGottmusik
      I know! What is the point of hiring a famous actor with an awesome voice when you end up ruining it with pointless music!

    • @GreatWonderMoose
      @GreatWonderMoose 5 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      @@Konrad_Wallenrod Well, the piano was added by the uploader. You can find the version with Irons' voice alone on Audible and elsewhere away from TH-cam.

    • @melorafaelas
      @melorafaelas 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      o.o

    • @NichaelCramer
      @NichaelCramer 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@GreatWonderMoose : Thanks for pointing this out.

  • @knowthyself6981
    @knowthyself6981 2 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    This is the most "Dark Souls" poem I've heard till now !
    Incredible piece of art
    Meditate on the last verses...

  • @alisondane8150
    @alisondane8150 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    So glad I heard it read in Eliots voice and it brings so much context and emotion

  • @TallshrewFishing
    @TallshrewFishing 4 ปีที่แล้ว +93

    That ending is very appropriate and I do wish that more people who perform readings of The Hollow Men would listen to this reading and heed it.

  • @LuizHenrique-qx5et
    @LuizHenrique-qx5et 6 ปีที่แล้ว +420

    I
    We are the hollow men
    We are the stuffed men
    Leaning together
    Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
    Our dried voices, when
    We whisper together
    Are quiet and meaningless
    As wind in dry grass
    Or rats' feet over broken glass
    In our dry cellar
    Shape without form, shade without colour,
    Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
    Those who have crossed
    With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
    Remember us-if at all-not as lost
    Violent souls, but only
    As the hollow men
    The stuffed men.
    II
    Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
    In death's dream kingdom
    These do not appear:
    There, the eyes are
    Sunlight on a broken column
    There, is a tree swinging
    And voices are
    In the wind's singing
    More distant and more solemn
    Than a fading star.
    Let me be no nearer
    In death's dream kingdom
    Let me also wear
    Such deliberate disguises
    Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
    In a field
    Behaving as the wind behaves
    No nearer-
    Not that final meeting
    In the twilight kingdom
    III
    This is the dead land
    This is cactus land
    Here the stone images
    Are raised, here they receive
    The supplication of a dead man's hand
    Under the twinkle of a fading star.
    Is it like this
    In death's other kingdom
    Waking alone
    At the hour when we are
    Trembling with tenderness
    Lips that would kiss
    Form prayers to broken stone.
    IV
    The eyes are not here
    There are no eyes here
    In this valley of dying stars
    In this hollow valley
    This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
    In this last of meeting places
    We grope together
    And avoid speech
    Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
    Sightless, unless
    The eyes reappear
    As the perpetual star
    Multifoliate rose
    Of death's twilight kingdom
    The hope only
    Of empty men.
    V
    Here we go round the prickly pear
    Prickly pear prickly pear
    Here we go round the prickly pear
    At five o'clock in the morning.
    Between the idea
    And the reality
    Between the motion
    And the act
    Falls the Shadow
    For Thine is the Kingdom
    Between the conception
    And the creation
    Between the emotion
    And the response
    Falls the Shadow
    Life is very long
    Between the desire
    And the spasm
    Between the potency
    And the existence
    Between the essence
    And the descent
    Falls the Shadow
    For Thine is the Kingdom
    For Thine is
    Life is
    For Thine is the
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang but a whimper.

    • @harryschultz6951
      @harryschultz6951 2 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      Thanks for posting the text

    • @Dank_Engine
      @Dank_Engine 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Powerful words

  • @caseydouglas3671
    @caseydouglas3671 5 ปีที่แล้ว +144

    Never expected the last lines to be read that quickly

    • @guidad542
      @guidad542 5 ปีที่แล้ว +55

      I think that is part of the beauty of the poem. The last few lines build up a tension that is never resolved, the "bang" never comes and all that we're left with is the whimpering scratches of a finished tape recording.

    • @malachymultimedia
      @malachymultimedia 5 ปีที่แล้ว +25

      It's as originally intended by the author, so much onus has been put on the end of this prose, The way he recites it is like the wave of a hand, indicating he is done with such nonsense/things of import he cannot change. It's a truly terrifying and beautiful piece.

    • @jackreid5970
      @jackreid5970 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I know. It felt more like a whimper than a bang.

    • @pkchoudhary1675
      @pkchoudhary1675 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      The rapid culmination of the end is the actual beauty of the entire poem.

    • @ThePiantanida31
      @ThePiantanida31 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Thank you! It’s wonderful to hear the intention of the author.

  • @strawbrryfld1
    @strawbrryfld1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    My favorite poem of all time. Every time I read it, every time I listen to Eliots reading, I get goose bumps and my skin crawls. I just LOVE IT !!!!

    • @n9zmn
      @n9zmn 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Kimberly Sikorski. I know! I can’t shake these images,,

    • @connorwilliamson3
      @connorwilliamson3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Eliot has such a solemn voice. He reads perfectly - I can’t begin to imagine what his mind was like …

    • @jowonderanimation
      @jowonderanimation 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This is the way the world ends...

    • @guepardiez
      @guepardiez 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Can you explain what it means?

  • @brandonmatuja6498
    @brandonmatuja6498 6 ปีที่แล้ว +41

    A pure unadorned recording! Thank you Thank You thank YOU!

  • @okrajoe
    @okrajoe 5 ปีที่แล้ว +157

    Wow -- I did not expect that reading of the final lines.

    • @Mr_Bunk
      @Mr_Bunk 5 ปีที่แล้ว +60

      Since it's the most famous bit, people tend to put EXTRA-DRAMATIC...EMPHASIS....ON THOSE. WORDS. But Elliot mumbles past them because that's exactly what it is; a whimper.

    • @alphablitz1024
      @alphablitz1024 5 ปีที่แล้ว +34

      Yeah, he went sing-song with it, an echo of the "prickly pear" children's song. The end isn't even a whimper. It's an absurd school rhyme.

  • @barbarastepien-foad4519
    @barbarastepien-foad4519 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Omg when I was at grammar school our music master, a madman, wrote music to his poem and we sang it......

  • @thespanishinquisition8617
    @thespanishinquisition8617 4 ปีที่แล้ว +40

    Shout out to the guy who coughs at 2:01

  • @EZRADUCE
    @EZRADUCE 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    PURE GENIUS,,,!!!!!! THANK YOU !!!!!!!

  • @DOOMJESUS
    @DOOMJESUS 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    AND WE'VE ONLY BECOME MORE HOLLOW WITH EACH AND EVERY DAY THAT HAS PASSED SINCE.

  • @mehmetcemunal7143
    @mehmetcemunal7143 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    the hasty delivery of the crown jewel of the poem, the resolution of the suspense, is so in line with the words... he ends the poem with almost with a running page and a fade out. there is no care.

  • @JohanHerrenberg
    @JohanHerrenberg 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    A miraculously musical reading by the man himself. Very impressive.

  • @benwalker4660
    @benwalker4660 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    the oration and delivery is powerful.

  • @ian87294
    @ian87294 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wonderful! I'm coming back to Eliot after some 36 years. I liked The Hollow Men when I first read it but my English teachers' interpretation of it put me off. I saw A.N. Wilsons' documentary on BBC 4 recently and the sound of Eliots' voice was a revelation. I'm not a poetry follower, I like Phillip Larkin, John Betjeman and a few other bits and pieces but The Hollow Men is now my number one favourite poem. For me it articulates my feelings of existential despair beautifully.

  • @melorafaelas
    @melorafaelas 5 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Greetings from Brazil! I was at Russel Square looking for this.

  • @frankswildyear
    @frankswildyear 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    In my early 20's, I was obsessed with poetry, Rimbaud, Eliot, Baudelaire...now I watch Netflix and drink tea

    • @3rdcoastnyucka
      @3rdcoastnyucka 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      You’re now hollow.

    • @frankswildyear
      @frankswildyear 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@3rdcoastnyucka I agree, unfortunately

    • @phillipbrandel7932
      @phillipbrandel7932 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I read for much of the night, and go south in the winter

  • @ryanoneiljohnson8743
    @ryanoneiljohnson8743 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    My English teacher gave me a book of T.S Eliot Selected Poem and this is my favourite poem.

  • @user-ht4kp7py2c
    @user-ht4kp7py2c 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    hes out there man...he's really out there

  • @Tymbus
    @Tymbus 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Fab. It's good to hear the intended intonation.

  • @eatmills
    @eatmills 5 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Memorized this poem once for a recital at school but this is so cool to hear T.S. himself read it. My rhythm very close to his but dang my end much slower and somber. Thank you for posting this!

  • @paulboutchia1035
    @paulboutchia1035 4 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    I feel like I want this read by my children at my funeral.

    • @belleme861
      @belleme861 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      that’s depressing..

  • @mojozowa
    @mojozowa 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Last few seconds, ' This is the way the world ends
    . This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.' = new cell ringer

  • @BushyHairedStranger
    @BushyHairedStranger 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    A Divine Work

  • @vincentveilleux8097
    @vincentveilleux8097 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Rest in Peace Norm MacDonald. ❤️

    • @EPlTHANY
      @EPlTHANY 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Did norm like this poem?

  • @herdek550
    @herdek550 5 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    2:56 - best part

  • @strawbrryfld1
    @strawbrryfld1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    This is one of the strengths of the Internet. T S sounds exactly like I thought he would. Very Boris Karloff - ish 😱🤣😂

  • @marvinc9994
    @marvinc9994 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    One of my favourite types: an American who became British.

  • @curiositycam
    @curiositycam 4 ปีที่แล้ว +18

    Who else is here for Jamie of "the sinner"?

  • @rabbitrun777
    @rabbitrun777 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I like how eliots poetry takes you on a spiritual journey. Stuff like prufrock is the listless, aimless wandering of youth and juvenile scepticism. This and the waste land show that scepticism and lack of direction evolving into an all encompassing terror and disease. Finally ash wednesday and four quartets bring us to a kind of religious resignation and hope.

  • @rogersimpson7153
    @rogersimpson7153 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Cool. He sounds just like Praveen Sachdev from the Late Cosmic Cafe in Dallas

  • @colinsthebestest
    @colinsthebestest 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    For thine is
    Life is
    For thine is the

  • @hudsonbailey674
    @hudsonbailey674 6 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    No prophet is received in his own home. GO ELIOT!

  • @rinadobaidat4596
    @rinadobaidat4596 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Im sorry but the last lines were hilarious 😂 I didn’t expect him to read them that fast

    • @bingola45
      @bingola45 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Every time I read that last stanza, I imagine it in the voice of a parrot.

  • @wattlejuice1
    @wattlejuice1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +37

    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    This is the way the world ends
    Not with a bang but with a cough

    • @smeadswanson
      @smeadswanson 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      in ways you might not expect

  • @johnnymarlin819
    @johnnymarlin819 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Brando was brilliant reading it as Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. !

    • @everydayjoe649
      @everydayjoe649 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      johnny marlin and then the photo journalist Dennis Hopper finishes it. Epic movie scene.

    • @johnnymarlin819
      @johnnymarlin819 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@everydayjoe649 Agreed. "His out there man his really out there ",

    • @bingola45
      @bingola45 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Brando in Apocalypse Now?
      Overpaid mumbling fat bastard.

    • @stephenmcewan2460
      @stephenmcewan2460 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@bingola45 Far from *hollow*

    • @bingola45
      @bingola45 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@stephenmcewan2460 Stuffed, maybe...

  • @binghamguevara6814
    @binghamguevara6814 4 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    The decline of the British Empire: "a valley of dying stars"

  • @bobcraghead573
    @bobcraghead573 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The Sinner Season 3 brought me here

  • @moniqueharris9
    @moniqueharris9 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So eerie, like a stand up show by a clearly depressed person. Kinda reminds me of the final scene in The Wicker Man.

  • @clarkairbase3526
    @clarkairbase3526 6 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    I want to here Mr. T read this....

  • @dickydickensjr.5181
    @dickydickensjr.5181 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Incredible. Even today
    The stuffed men lead us to destruction.

  • @snehvatsa
    @snehvatsa ปีที่แล้ว

    Have you any ‘video’ of T. S. Eliot's recitation of his poems?

    • @poets-speak
      @poets-speak  ปีที่แล้ว

      I am not aware that any exist.

  • @sofarsogood3936
    @sofarsogood3936 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    "This is the way the world ends, not with a band but with a whimper". A moment of silence for all those dieing and dead of Corona virus.

  • @MrJimmyTide
    @MrJimmyTide 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    You don’t have to be hollow if you just farm more humanity.

  • @Tarik360
    @Tarik360 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I haven't actually had any interest in poetry, but I am getting a feeling I need to read more to understand this one.

  • @mo7697
    @mo7697 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    “Here we go round the prickly pear
    Prickly pear prickly pear
    Here we go round the prickly pear
    At five o’clock in the morning “
    love this part

  • @adaptivo3692
    @adaptivo3692 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Visceral

  • @Justo_Sells_Ajijic_Homes
    @Justo_Sells_Ajijic_Homes 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Heavy stuff!

  • @Boraaaaaaaaaaaa
    @Boraaaaaaaaaaaa 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Figueira brava

  • @My_Voice_For_The_Voiceless
    @My_Voice_For_The_Voiceless 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

  • @jeremiahgabriel5709
    @jeremiahgabriel5709 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    And this proves that all poetic interpretation is subjective, and so every poetic interpretation is choice and guesswork--- not knowable the way every English teacher I ever had suggested, reading this slowly and morrosely. Not contemplatively as he does. And those last lines-- read always so slowly every time I've heard it and group-analyzed why in every English class, he zoomed through 🤣 Thanks for this recording.

  • @2011woodlands
    @2011woodlands 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Marlon Brando did a good job in Apocalypse Now with this post- WWI thoughts of despair.

    • @stephenmcewan2460
      @stephenmcewan2460 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Though he was (famously) *far* from being hollow, at the time.

  • @absolutfx
    @absolutfx 4 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    I think most of you have it wrong. We are all hollow men trying to fill ourselves with meaning. Alas, we are still hollow men.

    • @davidmcdonald9180
      @davidmcdonald9180 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      You know admitting you have a problem is the first step

  • @paullawrence539
    @paullawrence539 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Yes

  • @MickiStJames
    @MickiStJames 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hollow men = Tin Woodman
    Stuffed men = Scarecrow

    • @kooroshrostami27
      @kooroshrostami27 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      We are born hollow, we stuff ourselves by clinging to entities and delusions that will be gone with death, in the end we are empty. We are never full as in (full)filled, just stuffed, might as well be hollow.

  • @montyravenscroft558
    @montyravenscroft558 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    He is literally me

  • @johncollins6063
    @johncollins6063 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Colonel Kurtz brought me here

  • @fantasyray5606
    @fantasyray5606 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    eliot's voice is dry and heavy which is quite suitable fo this verse

  • @greenheart5395
    @greenheart5395 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    If I wasn't delated from FB and without real life freinds I'd post this somewhere.
    I feel like I am alone, only on an island with my wife and child watching the apocalypse, as people seem replaced or to have vanished and only vapid can be seen but still in dwindalong number.
    What's next down the road I don't know, I dont even knowing I would have anyone to make the remark to

  • @pukaman2000
    @pukaman2000 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow. I like the interpretation about war on another post. This reading though points the interpretation as heroine addition. Too bad nobody made a video showing contemporary pictures of our lost hollow men on the streets.

  • @twistedlvl50
    @twistedlvl50 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    who is else is here because of halo 3 :ODST?

    • @jjklliop
      @jjklliop 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I’ve been looking for you

    • @twistedlvl50
      @twistedlvl50 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jjklliop for me?

    • @jjklliop
      @jjklliop 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@twistedlvl50 For someone else who came here after Halo 3: ODST

    • @twistedlvl50
      @twistedlvl50 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@jjklliop secret glyph project

    • @jjklliop
      @jjklliop 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@twistedlvl50 YES

  • @kooroshrostami27
    @kooroshrostami27 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This poem must have inspired Dark Souls series.

  • @danielamancheen7292
    @danielamancheen7292 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    this is so terrifying !

  • @CippiCippiCippi
    @CippiCippiCippi 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Krautrock's Faust 'We Are The Hallo Men' : th-cam.com/video/0YaHMgI1KXA/w-d-xo.html

  • @bubbercakes528
    @bubbercakes528 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    All I could hear was the scratching in the background.

  • @maxmir3793
    @maxmir3793 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Valéry is your friend

  • @binghamguevara6814
    @binghamguevara6814 4 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    So he’s basically saying we’re scarecrows, right?

    • @carolebarker2195
      @carolebarker2195 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Straw men.

    • @binghamguevara6814
      @binghamguevara6814 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@carolebarker2195 yeah. That’s what I mean. Scarecrows.

    • @AngryCrackbear
      @AngryCrackbear 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @Y T I noticed that instead of providing a perspective that may help someone enjoy the piece and create dialog. You just take a pretentious stance that could turn people away. Just something to think about for the future.

    • @AngryCrackbear
      @AngryCrackbear 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @Y T Here's the thing, I never claimed that what you had said was right or wrong. I called you out for being pretentious, and you responded by doubling down. So I thank you sir for proving me correct. With that I'll restate my previous comment in a way that I hope helps.
      If you feel that you have more knowledge on a subject, you should present that knowledge in a way that doesn't draw attention to yourself. Instead your knowledge should enhance the original subject.

    • @AngryCrackbear
      @AngryCrackbear 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @Y T pretentious

  • @DeadAbeVigoda
    @DeadAbeVigoda 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Dark stuff.

  • @Lemont321989
    @Lemont321989 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Maybe unpopular opinion, but imo this poem can be read better / performed better than the way TSE did himself. It's nice to hear his own rendition, regardless.

  • @thanksplainandsimple446
    @thanksplainandsimple446 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    We need a poet about the Full Women, for it is not just men who follow . . ., and lead, but women who have the freedom to lead us down a fuller path.

    • @derricksanderlin5351
      @derricksanderlin5351 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Sounds like you could very well be 'that' poet. :)

    • @victorsproule9508
      @victorsproule9508 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yes,all those women leaders in the world today, leading us down a path full of bulls…t!

  • @clarkairbase3526
    @clarkairbase3526 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    APOCALYPSE NOW

  • @spookypants9621
    @spookypants9621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    the horror, the horror...

  • @scramblesish
    @scramblesish ปีที่แล้ว

    Not with a bang but with a whimper ☹️

  • @medbesra-sk5iw
    @medbesra-sk5iw 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    الرجال الجوف ....أجداد السيد ( سبونج بوب ) وسلالته المستعصية على الانقراض

  • @markmuldoon805
    @markmuldoon805 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The poet is often not the best to recite their work. This is a prime example. I felt this was an often lifeless recitation.

  • @homealone5087
    @homealone5087 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Marlon Brando read it better.

  • @Pep1nu
    @Pep1nu 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Why he sounds so scary

  • @iniohos2
    @iniohos2 6 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    T.S. Eliot is expelled from modern liberal universities.

    • @thatmanrunning
      @thatmanrunning 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I don't know what university experience you've had, but I did a module in modernism for my minor in English. The first text we studied was The Wasteland, the second text was Tradition And The Individual Talent. After covering Eliot, the lecturers connected every other writer we covered to him.

    • @seanod7157
      @seanod7157 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I read him in high school and at the university. Of course that was in the late 80's.

    • @nathanw.3187
      @nathanw.3187 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I’m reading him, I’m a senior in high school. It’s shocking how many generations words can carry.

    • @nathanw.3187
      @nathanw.3187 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @Y T greatest book ever written

    • @phillipbrandel7932
      @phillipbrandel7932 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      I read Prufrock in English class my junior year of high school and there's a good chance I would not have gotten into poetry had that not happened.

  • @neonpitchforks
    @neonpitchforks ปีที่แล้ว

    He sounds annoyed

  • @condocord7544
    @condocord7544 ปีที่แล้ว

    that is crap, just admit it