This is the way I see it and hear it. Both super drummers have left us. Their accomplishments in music and drumming are legendary. Buddy Rich as you hear him and visualize him is a speed demon and master technician. On the other hand max roach was a melodic drummer who could literally paint tonal drum solos. Too get to the point. Complete admiration and respect for both drummers
There is no winner here. How can you choose a winner? Just listen and learn. When you say Max Roach sounded like "a five year old kid having a tantrum on the drums", it is totally disrespectful. Just listen and don't choose a winner here. Once you get to their level and are able to play things like this, then MAYBE you have a authority to choose, but until then. Buddy Rich=Amazing Max Roach=Amazing.
This got to be one of the most insane drummer records of all time. Both are masters and play really well off of one another. I love how Max answers Buddy at 2:02. It's just this avantgarde freak out after buddy's military assault, there was no better possible way to answer that.
max's sound is so unique. buddy rich sounds like a machine with musicality. it's hard to compare them, really. if I had the choice to have either play on my track, I would choose Max Roach. he just has so much style
Max is trying to keep up with Buddy. It's not his fault. Buddy is too powerful and has the edge. It is amazing how flawless and perfect are Buddy's strokes. Max is sloppy and muddy and it is hard to discern his ideas. Not too many drummers could go against Buddy on a one on one duel. This is Buddy's territory and he knows it. Tremendous command.
The way i see it, one's position in the Rich v Roach debate is one of the most indicative characteristics of said person as a musician. If you value precision, speed, and technical proficiency at the risk of sounding a bit like a metronome, then Rich is the way to go. If you value expressiveness and tonality at the expense of occasional sloppiness, then Roach. I personally like Roach, but that isn't to say Buddy doesn't blow my mind now and again. Both were just excellent drummers.
Buddy Rich was phenomanal utilizing speed, agility and dynamic 32nd and 64th rolls, not to mention incredible left hand speed and dexterity. I love Buddy Rich he was always #1 in my book. Max Roach was amazing with dynamics and creativity. Max had the speed like buddy but just not as fast and not as syncopated, but max had the touch and feel using speed with tone. My all time 2 favorite drummers. Love this clip. I never tire of listening to these 2 drumming giants.
Certainly,Buddy usually kicked ass(relatively speaking)in these kind of affairs. But,because he had long realized his greatness,he didn't "battle" another drummer unless it was someone he had a great deal of respect for. Obviously,Max fit comfortably in that category.
That's my favorite part! I'm glad someone else noticed it. I think it was the best possible answer to what Rich did right before. It's like, there's no way I can do a single stroke roll like that, so I'll just do something completely incomprehensible but make it end on time, lol.
Back in those days, the "versus" concept was hugely popular with the fans, and of course the record companies. The musicians, in this case, the drummers, were not hot about the title or concept, but contracts and money did the talking. Let's just say that if it weren't for that, we may not have this at all!
originalDimer I don't think either made a lot of money here, as the record did not sell millions or even hundreds of thousands of copies With few exceptions, jazz records don't sell
How can I say anything negative. I’ve played for fifty years and I’m totally in awe. Remember both these gentlemen had mutual respect for each other to leave us this.
I love both of these drummers but buddy rich just LOVES that snare! on this one i think he rides on it a little too much at times... he is playing with absolute precision, near perfection but I prefer roach's style here. ESPECIALLY with those blast beats riffs. love it! such a cool record one of a kind..
many years ago i met a gentleman in his 90's who asked me whos the faster drummer...buddy or max? I said,BUDDY!!! He said,NOPE...Max!! i said what do you mean?? HE says,he was at the recording and there's a difference between "solo fast" and "time fast"...he went on to say that during rehearsals the two legends played around with extremely fast ride cymbal time and Buddy couldn't keep up!! This will be hard for Rich fans to digest as it was for me,at that time!!! Now,Praise Christ,I see what he meant!! In a solo,you can control when you wanna blaze or not; When swingin more (way) than 320 bpm,you HAVE TO STAY FAST!!!
2 GRANDISSIMI BATTERISTI, BUDDY MOLTO ISTINTIVO , MAX TECNICO DA PAURA , CON IL TEMPO , FACEVA CIÒ CHE VOLEVA . UN BATTERISTA CHE HA STUDIATO ANCHE DIREZIONE D'ORCHESTRA!
Best battle with the legends here. Max is probably the only one who can keep up with Buddy. But Buddy on the other hand was so fast like a machine gun and never missed one beat at all. Love them both and sad they are gone.
I own and enjoy the CD. It is obvious to me that Rich is cleaner (drum-tuning too). Both have had wonderful impact on THEIR audiences. I admire them both for their contribution to the world and willingness to even do a CD like this.
@williamson609 Max Roach was an innovator in drumming. Give him the respect he deserves. Buddy was of course the best, but he didn't have a monopoly on talent.
The Ginger Baker drum battle I was referring to was between him and Elvin Jones. The battle was held somewhere in England, I think Manchester, but definitely not London and it was either 1973 or maybe 1975. I wrote to the excellent U.K. Rock Magazine, Mojo, back in the late 1990's to tell them of this drum battle and they wrote a one page story about it. The writers at the time commented on the different types of kits they both played and the style of playing, but more or less called it a draw.
@surethang27 It's because he phrased his lines more like a horn player. He was very rudiment-based, but put them in the context of musical statements rather than for pyrotechnics.
@SAHBfan I have always felt this way about this record- had to sell it, actually, as the mix pissed me off so much. I don't like contests of this nature anyway: I think they are both absolute geniuses of the drums- so musical, so fierce- but Buddy was ABSOLUTELY higher in the mix by about 40 %. Wack.
@spercoco "That's not true. Actually if you watch the drum battle with him and Krupa with Sammy Davis Jr. as the MC, Krupa had the higher platform. " Well... it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment, I'm sure there were some occassions where Buddy wasn't highest , although on most youtube vids he seems to be 'on a pedastle' one way or another ;-) But the valid point I was trying to make was that it is difficult to compare two players when one is MUCH louder in the mix than the other.
In the mid-1970's, there was a drum battle between Ginger Baker and Elvin Jones in England. Baker used his twin bass drums and about 50 other drums, while Elvin used his standard kit. The PC Brit rock writers tried their best to call it a draw, but it was clear that Elvin won hands down!
I've been a Buddy Rich fan since age 12, (1970) originally because my drum teacher (Mr. Stein, a much older white/jewish man), said he the best. He spoke briefly of Bellson, Morello & Krupa as second best. Of course, my neighborhood musician friends were all into playing (Led Zepplin, Chicago, Rare Earth, Grand Funk). Point being: I wish my teacher had mentioned Max Roach and had encouraged me to broaden my scope of music & musicians (drummers).
Buddy is the top master technic. In the big band he is the number one, but his solo are almost the same , and repetitive. Max is top musical and creative drummer a Mozart of the drum.
@SAHBfan Do you know if this record - or CD - is still available and if so, could you provide any label information so that I can hunt it down? Thanks! BTW - I like Ginger Baker, Carl Palmer and the many other great British drummers, such as Phil Seaman. However, I tend to like Buddy Rich - who I saw on several occasions - Elvin Jones, Max Roach and all the great soul, funk and Motown drummers a bit more. Nevertheless, they are all great and I couldn't play stock cymbals with any of them!
buddy is like an M16 up against the wall thats his incredible snare technique & style if I had to chose from these 2 BR wins BUT later proves he has greater independance later with "THE DRUM ALSO WALTZES" which is more contemporary but still my money is on the horse called"RICH" I hope thats an Omen.
Talk about major bullshit... Both Rich and Roach (and Krupa and Blakey and Williams and all the others of we're talking) are wonderful in their own way.
Roach is boring. He repeats the same 4 or 5 sequences through out his career. There’s no match. Listen carefully. The ideas that come from Buddy’s mind were endless.
I brought this album back in the 80s just to listen to Buddy's snare work I like Max for his Bop work but not a fan of his solos. He copt a lot of stuff from Sid Catlett big Sid that is in his solos. Max played vibraphone first but after hearing Milt Jackson he gave it up and played the Drums. Buddy Rich on the other hand Traps the boy wonder was playing since he got out of a cradle
@originalDimer hey do u kno wat kind of cymbals these guys r using on this recording? i kno both of them were endorsed by zildjian but idk the cymbals sound just amazing on this recording and they dont really sound like zildjian, are they possibly using paiste 602's?
@dapinelli Baker V Elvin? Really? Never heard of that. There was a drum battle between Art Blakey and Ginger Baker in the 1970s - what happened there was that the solo went on for so long (Baker's speciality) that Blakey physically ran out of puff and couldn't carry on - or at least couldn't keep up the chops. He had a bit of a rest in the middle - which was the 'comedy moment' for the crowd. You can find this battle on record. Not heard an Elvin Jones / Ginger Baker one, though...
One of the reasons why Buddy Rich lost to Max Roach was because of his bad technique. Buddy Rich leaned forward while playing and it caused him to get a terrible hunch back. Many drummers told him to fix his bad posture, but Buddy Rich was arrogant and wouldn't listen to anyone.
I want to point out something that is probably true in a purely historical context. Bernard Rich was probably the first modern supertechnician, and so all the drummers who didn't bother to go against him were students of the Big Sid Cutlet. As far as I am aware of the history of jazz drums, Sid had incredible technical abilities but played in a deceptively simple style. Even the late great Rich did not deny this, he knew there were others with his skills.
to Minko Iliev: People claim Buddy Rich is a good technician. But this battle clearly shows Buddy's techniques are limited to the snare. Max Roach is the true complete drum technician.
@@stefanrobert5233That's exactly what I tried to tell you, excuse me for the bad English. Max Roach's contribution to modern drums is undeniable. I wanted to say that in this figurative duel, Max Roach drew the future of drums, new ideas, musicality and everything else. This is what I tried to explain to you. The student of Sid Cutlet / Max Roach / was an ingenious drummer. B.R. he failed to get out of the standard playing for large groups but modernized it to an exceptional level.
@TheKirkaCola Your right. The old jazz players were indeed legends. Check out my solos on here. My attempts at a Buddy Rich tribute. Keep in mind I'm not a professional drummer, just a fan with some good chops. :-)
I have often wandered whether Buddy had something written into his contract about these 'battles'. On TV and stage appearances he was always on the highest platform or the nearest to the front. His snare drum was always tuned the highest, too. In this case he is twice the volume of Max Roach... I wonder if that was his condition for appearing on record? ^_^ Hardly surprising many comment say Buddy was much better, but hardly fair, either. If there is a stereo split - is it possible to remix?
Buddy in rudiments and in the big band is number one. But he couldn't read music. Max made the drum sound like music e was reading music very well. Both of them had a different approach on the drum..
Best drummers: Rich, Roach, Bellson, Shaughnessy, and although not quite their equal technically, certainly their equal in his ability to swing, Krupa.
why is Buddy so much louder than Max? I knew he'd probably be a little louder just by the way he plays, but I did not think he'd be this much louder. It seems a little unfair.
I have to give the edge to Buddy's hands in the strictly technical side, but honestly, Roach here sounds like the future. Like Bruce Lee versus Chuck Norris. Rich is from a very pulse oriented school, and even himself admits that melody was never his mission (MD issue #1), while Roach brought melodic concepts to the scene well after Rich was firmly established. No disrespect, but anyone who thinks there was even a winner needs to make sure they know what they're listening to.
I just find it funny that Buddy Rich's drums are just sound a little louder and a little more reverb to the center and Max Roach's set is panned way more to the right.
The tune is called ‘Eights’. Buddy is clean as all hell, but I like Max’s phrasing and musicality. Max’s lick at 1:29 is just killer. I dig it more than the machine gun rolls that Buddy plays
@SAHBfan That's not true. Actually if you watch the drum battle with him and Krupa with Sammy Davis Jr. as the MC, Krupa had the higher platform. Of course that was when Krupa was pretty old. The battle they did at the Philharmonic was much better and Krupa wailed but there's no video of that which I know of. As far as Rich's drums being louder and crisper it's all in the tuning and technique. Rich tuned his snare very tight and always had a snap to his playing. Carl Palmer the same.
TERRY BOZZIO my favourite drummy has pushed interdependance to mad mad levels to that of ART but sorry TERRY MAX was first with the first modern understanding of the modern OSTINATO with his solo THE DRUM ALSO WALTZES" Buddy was STILL my first love and I am UBer lucky owning an old 400 he struck[ yes i am sad]
Rich had much better natural technique and it is obvious in the articulation. I myself have problems with my hands sometimes with tendonitis and sluggishness especially as I get older and especially when I don't get proper rest. This is perhaps Max Roach's cleanest soling work and it is still not clean and precise as Rich. Buddy was incapable of sounding sloppy.
max really is the more creative drummer here, i think its pretty obvious. i dont see any real examples of his technique faltering at all. he's able to play buddy at his game and but then flips it into territory buddy would never comprehend. buddy and max were friends. to label max as a racist is oversimplifying his political views. to label buddy as just a fascist band leader with a huge ego i think would be an oversimplication as well. both great drummers.
@@stefanrobert5233 not true. He uses all that should be used at any moment. Not more, not less. Roach it’s just a clumsy drummer when compared to Buddy. Try to listen, not just hear.
Buddy owns Max is more like it! On this encounter and any other "meeting" these two ever engaged in and Max (rest his soul) would probably tell you as much! N.S.
Buddy;s hands are machine-guns....Max was a great percussionist, don't get me wrong, however Buddy's sheer speed and grace surpasses several others...no hatin' here, just sayin...Gotta go, time to practice
@postatility in my opinion buddy totally OWNED max roach.... i think that drummers like elvin jones, buddy rich, jhon bonham, billy cobham, tullio de piscopo rocked more than max roach.
tullio de piscopo? are you serious guy???? just a good professional completely unknown outside Italy (and for some good, very good reasons, even here we have and had better drummers than de piscopo....)
Max Roach clearly out drums Buddy Rich but people still want to believe Buddy Rich is unbeatable. This isn't the only battle Buddy Rich lost. Buddy Rich also lost a drum battle to “Speedy” Jones.
to Drummer J.L.H.: You can go to Steve Maxwell's vintage drum museum. He has one of “Speedy” Jones' drumsets and one of Buddy Rich's drumsets side by side. He can tell you about their drum battle.
@MusicofTheCool Are you serious,Needs to be remembered?Theres not 1 accomplished drummer alive today who doesn't know who buddy rich,max roach are..Anyone who has studied knows this.Be it rock,jazz or what ever genre of music.If you believe otherwise, you need to open your mind and be less opinionated.
This is the way I see it and hear it. Both super drummers have left us. Their accomplishments in music and drumming are legendary. Buddy Rich as you hear him and visualize him is a speed demon and master technician. On the other hand max roach was a melodic drummer who could literally paint tonal drum solos. Too get to the point. Complete admiration and respect for both drummers
Ray Szymarek I heard Max call Buddy the speed merchant
There is no winner here. How can you choose a winner? Just listen and learn.
When you say Max Roach sounded like "a five year old kid having a tantrum on the drums", it is totally disrespectful.
Just listen and don't choose a winner here. Once you get to their level and are able to play things like this, then MAYBE you have a authority to choose, but until then.
Buddy Rich=Amazing
Max Roach=Amazing.
MrBerenstain years late, but Cheers. I like it when adults comment on TH-cam.
man those Buddy single strokes at 1:58 are so fast, even and clean. It's unbelievable, like a machine
I have always wished that the entire Rich vs. Roach session had been video taped!
This got to be one of the most insane drummer records of all time. Both are masters and play really well off of one another. I love how Max answers Buddy at 2:02. It's just this avantgarde freak out after buddy's military assault, there was no better possible way to answer that.
Holy shit. I’m new to jazz and I must have this album.
I just got it
The Leftovers.
max's sound is so unique. buddy rich sounds like a machine with musicality. it's hard to compare them, really. if I had the choice to have either play on my track, I would choose Max Roach. he just has so much style
Max is trying to keep up with Buddy. It's not his fault. Buddy is too powerful and has the edge. It is amazing how flawless and perfect are Buddy's strokes. Max is sloppy and muddy and it is hard to discern his ideas. Not too many drummers could go against Buddy on a one on one duel. This is Buddy's territory and he knows it. Tremendous command.
The way i see it, one's position in the Rich v Roach debate is one of the most indicative characteristics of said person as a musician. If you value precision, speed, and technical proficiency at the risk of sounding a bit like a metronome, then Rich is the way to go. If you value expressiveness and tonality at the expense of occasional sloppiness, then Roach. I personally like Roach, but that isn't to say Buddy doesn't blow my mind now and again. Both were just excellent drummers.
best comment.
Buddy Rich was phenomanal utilizing speed, agility and dynamic 32nd and 64th rolls, not to mention incredible left hand speed and dexterity. I love Buddy Rich he was always #1 in my book. Max Roach was amazing with dynamics and creativity. Max had the speed like buddy but just not as fast and not as syncopated, but max had the touch and feel using speed with tone. My all time 2 favorite drummers. Love this clip. I never tire of listening to these 2 drumming giants.
Certainly,Buddy usually kicked ass(relatively speaking)in these kind of affairs. But,because he had long realized his greatness,he didn't "battle" another drummer unless it was someone he had a great deal of respect for. Obviously,Max fit comfortably in that category.
That's my favorite part! I'm glad someone else noticed it. I think it was the best possible answer to what Rich did right before. It's like, there's no way I can do a single stroke roll like that, so I'll just do something completely incomprehensible but make it end on time, lol.
Back in those days, the "versus" concept was hugely popular with the fans, and of course the record companies. The musicians, in this case, the drummers, were not hot about the title or concept, but contracts and money did the talking. Let's just say that if it weren't for that, we may not have this at all!
originalDimer I don't think either made a lot of money here, as the record did not sell millions or even hundreds of thousands of copies
With few exceptions, jazz records don't sell
Max Roach vs Buddy Rich Vs Zach Hill
Erik omfg only in dreams
I legitimately wonder if buddy could keep up with Zach
@@aBullet4uZombie Zach sense of rhythm is above Buddies, so I think you are on to something.
There is probably nothing one could do that the other could not do as easliy. Two of the greatest ever
I love the panning effect for each drummer! Inspiring stuff from both!
How can I say anything negative. I’ve played for fifty years and I’m totally in awe. Remember both these gentlemen had mutual respect for each other to leave us this.
two of jazz's most intense drummers combatting for total supremecy neither giving no inch nor quarter.WHAT A BATTLE!WHAT A RUSH!!!!!!!!!!
I love both of these drummers but buddy rich just LOVES that snare! on this one i think he rides on it a little too much at times... he is playing with absolute precision, near perfection but I prefer roach's style here. ESPECIALLY with those blast beats riffs. love it! such a cool record one of a kind..
Does anyone else hear the beginnings of the blast beat in Rich's channel?
I still have my original copy of this album.
Thank you....I've been a drummer for 21 years......'nough said!!!!
many years ago i met a gentleman in his 90's who asked me whos the faster drummer...buddy or max? I said,BUDDY!!! He said,NOPE...Max!! i said what do you mean?? HE says,he was at the recording and there's a difference between "solo fast" and "time fast"...he went on to say that during rehearsals the two legends played around with extremely fast ride cymbal time and Buddy couldn't keep up!! This will be hard for Rich fans to digest as it was for me,at that time!!! Now,Praise Christ,I see what he meant!! In a solo,you can control when you wanna blaze or not; When swingin more (way) than 320 bpm,you HAVE TO STAY FAST!!!
2 GRANDISSIMI BATTERISTI, BUDDY MOLTO ISTINTIVO , MAX TECNICO DA PAURA , CON IL TEMPO , FACEVA CIÒ CHE VOLEVA . UN BATTERISTA CHE HA STUDIATO ANCHE DIREZIONE D'ORCHESTRA!
“The Battle Royal Of The Giants”. IT’S A DRAW!!!!!!
I'm going with Max on this one.
right channel? I saw Roach live and up close. A drum buddha and mutha. I agree. Max is more musical.
Yeah, Max defiantly won this one.
You clearly haven't listened much to Buddy Rich. You're paying too much attention to the solos. Ever see him play the brushes?
Peter Erskine called Buddy a master with the brushes
Buddy rich never ceases to amaze me with the way his snare is angled. haha
Best battle with the legends here. Max is probably the only one who can keep up with Buddy. But Buddy on the other hand was so fast like a machine gun and never missed one beat at all. Love them both and sad they are gone.
its up to the individual as to style and technique he likes,I personally can get into all styles
friggin hell this is great
I own and enjoy the CD. It is obvious to me that Rich is cleaner (drum-tuning too). Both have had wonderful impact on THEIR audiences. I admire them both for their contribution to the world and willingness to even do a CD like this.
Damn near IMPOSSIBLE to pick a winner🥴😖BOTH were incredible!! MAYBE buddy was a C-hair better on the snare? MAYBE??
@williamson609 Max Roach was an innovator in drumming. Give him the respect he deserves. Buddy was of course the best, but he didn't have a monopoly on talent.
The Ginger Baker drum battle I was referring to was between him and Elvin Jones. The battle was held somewhere in England, I think Manchester, but definitely not London and it was either 1973 or maybe 1975.
I wrote to the excellent U.K. Rock Magazine, Mojo, back in the late 1990's to tell them of this drum battle and they wrote a one page story about it. The writers at the time commented on the different types of kits they both played and the style of playing, but more or less called it a draw.
@surethang27 It's because he phrased his lines more like a horn player. He was very rudiment-based, but put them in the context of musical statements rather than for pyrotechnics.
@SAHBfan I have always felt this way about this record- had to sell it, actually, as the mix pissed me off so much. I don't like contests of this nature anyway: I think they are both absolute geniuses of the drums- so musical, so fierce- but Buddy was ABSOLUTELY higher in the mix by about 40 %. Wack.
@spercoco
"That's not true. Actually if you watch the drum battle with him and Krupa with Sammy Davis Jr. as the MC, Krupa had the higher platform. "
Well... it was a slightly tongue in cheek comment, I'm sure there were some occassions where Buddy wasn't highest , although on most youtube vids he seems to be 'on a pedastle' one way or another ;-)
But the valid point I was trying to make was that it is difficult to compare two players when one is MUCH louder in the mix than the other.
In the mid-1970's, there was a drum battle between Ginger Baker and Elvin Jones in England. Baker used his twin bass drums and about 50 other drums, while Elvin used his standard kit.
The PC Brit rock writers tried their best to call it a draw, but it was clear that Elvin won hands down!
dapinelli Ginger played two bass drums and four toms. Elvin later played a single bass kit with four toms.
I've been a Buddy Rich fan since age 12, (1970) originally because my drum teacher (Mr. Stein, a much older white/jewish man), said he the best. He spoke briefly of Bellson, Morello & Krupa as second best. Of course, my neighborhood musician friends were all into playing (Led Zepplin, Chicago, Rare Earth, Grand Funk).
Point being: I wish my teacher had mentioned Max Roach and had encouraged me to broaden my scope of music & musicians (drummers).
Buddy is the top master technic. In the big band he is the number one, but his solo are almost the same , and repetitive.
Max is top musical and creative drummer a Mozart of the drum.
both did a great job
drumming 101 in heaven. ready to rumble dynamite everywhere else
This is great. Too bad there's no video of Buddy Rich vs. John Bonham. That'd be interesting.
The winner is.... All of us.
marcus nunes the winner is max roach
Riche's single stroke rolls are the best in the biz
CRAZY AWESOMNESS!
I really love both but Buddy Rich is better. It’s an other level ....
That was awesome
@SAHBfan Do you know if this record - or CD - is still available and if so, could you provide any label information so that I can hunt it down? Thanks!
BTW - I like Ginger Baker, Carl Palmer and the many other great British drummers, such as Phil Seaman. However, I tend to like Buddy Rich - who I saw on several occasions - Elvin Jones, Max Roach and all the great soul, funk and Motown drummers a bit more. Nevertheless, they are all great and I couldn't play stock cymbals with any of them!
some graet photos here that are new to me. TFP
Rich had the speed, Roach the finesse
Buddy had to have the last crash :)
buddy is like an M16 up against the wall thats his incredible snare technique & style if I had to chose from these 2 BR wins BUT later proves he has greater independance later with "THE DRUM ALSO WALTZES" which is more contemporary but still my money is on the horse called"RICH" I hope thats an Omen.
Max keeps interrupting Buddy endings.
Talk about major bullshit...
Both Rich and Roach (and Krupa and Blakey and Williams and all the others of we're talking) are wonderful in their own way.
Rich is SO clean! Roach is SO musical!
Roach is boring. He repeats the same 4 or 5 sequences through out his career. There’s no match. Listen carefully. The ideas that come from Buddy’s mind were endless.
Buddy Rich vs Max Roach... 47000 views and not one single dislike. were not worthy!
@MusicofTheCool that's so true-- most jazz drummers can wipe the floor with those of other styles -- though Deep Purple's Ian Paice was awfully good.
the guitaraist with Deep Purple said they would wipe the floor with ELP at the California Jam. Other way around.
@drummer0804 2:02 IS the quiet drummer, 2:02 IS the right channel, 2:02 IS Max. Idk what you're trying to say lmao
I brought this album back in the 80s just to listen to Buddy's snare work
I like Max for his Bop work but not a fan of his solos. He copt a lot of stuff
from Sid Catlett big Sid that is in his solos. Max played vibraphone first but
after hearing Milt Jackson he gave it up and played the Drums.
Buddy Rich on the other hand Traps the boy wonder was playing since he got out of a cradle
@originalDimer hey do u kno wat kind of cymbals these guys r using on this recording? i kno both of them were endorsed by zildjian but idk the cymbals sound just amazing on this recording and they dont really sound like zildjian, are they possibly using paiste 602's?
@dapinelli
Baker V Elvin? Really? Never heard of that. There was a drum battle between Art Blakey and Ginger Baker in the 1970s - what happened there was that the solo went on for so long (Baker's speciality) that Blakey physically ran out of puff and couldn't carry on - or at least couldn't keep up the chops. He had a bit of a rest in the middle - which was the 'comedy moment' for the crowd. You can find this battle on record. Not heard an Elvin Jones / Ginger Baker one, though...
One of the reasons why Buddy Rich lost to Max Roach was because of his bad technique. Buddy Rich leaned forward while playing and it caused him to get a terrible hunch back. Many drummers told him to fix his bad posture, but Buddy Rich was arrogant and wouldn't listen to anyone.
I want to point out something that is probably true in a purely historical context. Bernard Rich was probably the first modern supertechnician, and so all the drummers who didn't bother to go against him were students of the Big Sid Cutlet. As far as I am aware of the history of jazz drums, Sid had incredible technical abilities but played in a deceptively simple style. Even the late great Rich did not deny this, he knew there were others with his skills.
I wanted to say that all those who did the so-called drum battles against Bernard Rich were students of Sid Kalet / 1910-1951 /.
to Minko Iliev:
People claim Buddy Rich is a good technician. But this battle clearly shows Buddy's techniques are limited to the snare. Max Roach is the true complete drum technician.
@@stefanrobert5233That's exactly what I tried to tell you, excuse me for the bad English.
Max Roach's contribution to modern drums is undeniable. I wanted to say that in this figurative duel, Max Roach drew the future of drums, new ideas, musicality and everything else. This is what I tried to explain to you. The student of Sid Cutlet / Max Roach / was an ingenious drummer. B.R. he failed to get out of the standard playing for large groups but modernized it to an exceptional level.
@TheKirkaCola Your right. The old jazz players were indeed legends. Check out my solos on here. My attempts at a Buddy Rich tribute. Keep in mind I'm not a professional drummer, just a fan with some good chops. :-)
listen to these solos over again and tell me who is the best at control. It's obvious it's Buddy.
I have often wandered whether Buddy had something written into his contract about these 'battles'. On TV and stage appearances he was always on the highest platform or the nearest to the front. His snare drum was always tuned the highest, too. In this case he is twice the volume of Max Roach... I wonder if that was his condition for appearing on record? ^_^
Hardly surprising many comment say Buddy was much better, but hardly fair, either. If there is a stereo split - is it possible to remix?
@originalDimer great comment
easy peasy, no sweat drill
Buddy in rudiments and in the big band is number one. But he couldn't read music.
Max made the drum sound like music e was reading music very well.
Both of them had a different approach on the drum..
Best drummers: Rich, Roach, Bellson, Shaughnessy, and although not quite their equal technically, certainly their equal in his ability to swing, Krupa.
And also, IMHO, Buddy Rich was just as much an innovator as Max Roach.
why is Buddy so much louder than Max? I knew he'd probably be a little louder just by the way he plays, but I did not think he'd be this much louder. It seems a little unfair.
i may have my left and right cables in reverse but I know which is buddy.
snap rich precision : P max is awesome to tho. shocking at times.
I have to give the edge to Buddy's hands in the strictly technical side, but honestly, Roach here sounds like the future. Like Bruce Lee versus Chuck Norris. Rich is from a very pulse oriented school, and even himself admits that melody was never his mission (MD issue #1), while Roach brought melodic concepts to the scene well after Rich was firmly established. No disrespect, but anyone who thinks there was even a winner needs to make sure they know what they're listening to.
rebusd best comment in this thread
I just find it funny that Buddy Rich's drums are just sound a little louder and a little more reverb to the center and Max Roach's set is panned way more to the right.
The tune is called ‘Eights’. Buddy is clean as all hell, but I like Max’s phrasing and musicality.
Max’s lick at 1:29 is just killer. I dig it more than the machine gun rolls that Buddy plays
I'm not very familiar with these two drummers, so can someone tell me, which drummer is in which channel and is it consistent throughout the album?
Rich is in your left earphone and Roach in your right. Also Rich has the crisper sounding drums; especially the snare.
@SAHBfan That's not true. Actually if you watch the drum battle with him and Krupa with Sammy Davis Jr. as the MC, Krupa had the higher platform. Of course that was when Krupa was pretty old. The battle they did at the Philharmonic was much better and Krupa wailed but there's no video of that which I know of.
As far as Rich's drums being louder and crisper it's all in the tuning and technique. Rich tuned his snare very tight and always had a snap to his playing. Carl Palmer the same.
@auxsender
yup
Max Roach is pretty good but Buddy Rich destroys everybody.
Max beat Buddy in this battle. Buddy can work the snare but his tom tom rolls aren't good.
Favorite figure 8: 1:33. The accents just sound angry
TERRY BOZZIO my favourite drummy has pushed interdependance to mad mad levels to that of ART but sorry TERRY MAX was first with the first modern understanding of the modern OSTINATO with his solo THE DRUM ALSO WALTZES"
Buddy was STILL my first love and I am UBer lucky owning an old 400 he struck[ yes i am sad]
Rich had much better natural technique and it is obvious in the articulation. I myself have problems with my hands sometimes with tendonitis and sluggishness especially as I get older and especially when I don't get proper rest. This is perhaps Max Roach's cleanest soling work and it is still not clean and precise as Rich. Buddy was incapable of sounding sloppy.
Buddy Rich 🐐
Buddy rich verse Mike Mitchell haha.
Buddy's singles are so clean and crispy.
It's not even funny.
max really is the more creative drummer here, i think its pretty obvious. i dont see any real examples of his technique faltering at all. he's able to play buddy at his game and but then flips it into territory buddy would never comprehend. buddy and max were friends. to label max as a racist is oversimplifying his political views. to label buddy as just a fascist band leader with a huge ego i think would be an oversimplication as well. both great drummers.
2:52. That is all.
Max Roach is the winner. Buddy Rich needs to use the drums other than the snare.
You’re deff.
to Augusto Correia:
In this battle Buddy Rich mainly plays the snare. His tom fills aren't as good as Max Roach.
@@stefanrobert5233 Max it’s just too boring. The ideas and polirhytmics from Buddy’s mind are completelly out of reach for Roach.
to Augusto Correia:
Buddy Rich is just doing single stroke rolls on the snare drum. He stays on the snare.
@@stefanrobert5233 not true. He uses all that should be used at any moment. Not more, not less. Roach it’s just a clumsy drummer when compared to Buddy. Try to listen, not just hear.
Buddy Rich @1:49 😳😳
Buddy owns Max is more like it! On this encounter and any other "meeting" these two ever engaged in and Max (rest his soul) would probably tell you as much! N.S.
@AStudCalledKyle That's actually Buddy. Max is the quieter drummer. It's believed because of his skin color he was put in the back away from the mic.
Buddy;s hands are machine-guns....Max was a great percussionist, don't get me wrong, however Buddy's sheer speed and grace surpasses several others...no hatin' here, just sayin...Gotta go, time to practice
@postatility in my opinion buddy totally OWNED max roach.... i think that drummers like elvin jones, buddy rich, jhon bonham, billy cobham, tullio de piscopo rocked more than max roach.
tullio de piscopo? are you serious guy???? just a good professional completely unknown outside Italy (and for some good, very good reasons, even here we have and had better drummers than de piscopo....)
Max Roach clearly out drums Buddy Rich but people still want to believe Buddy Rich is unbeatable. This isn't the only battle Buddy Rich lost. Buddy Rich also lost a drum battle to “Speedy” Jones.
to Drummer J.L.H.:
This battle clearly shows that all Buddy could do is play the snare. But some people just want to believe he's better.
to Drummer J.L.H.:
As of drummers still alive, who do you put on top?
to Drummer J.L.H.:
You can go to Steve Maxwell's vintage drum museum. He has one of “Speedy” Jones' drumsets and one of Buddy Rich's drumsets side by side. He can tell you about their drum battle.
*oversimplification
buddy.
@MusicofTheCool Are you serious,Needs to be remembered?Theres not 1 accomplished drummer alive today who doesn't know who buddy rich,max roach are..Anyone who has studied knows this.Be it rock,jazz or what ever genre of music.If you believe otherwise, you need to open your mind and be less opinionated.
Imagine if one of these men did the gravity blasts