explaining even friends the difference between pedelec and throttle bike is hilariously diffiicult until they try both. Media can impose whatever narrative they like. How come having swiss army knife in your backpack can bring you troubles in London?
I watched this programme and came to the conclusion that it was typical of the sort of clickbait journalism on which much of the BBC now relies. I dob't totally blame the BBC, their News Departments have been eviscerated by corporate incompetence in recent years and this is what we're left with.
So why don't you call them out, get the researchers, directors etc on your platform and challenge the misinformation spilled out by the BBC, they need educating about our sport / hobby.
Why are suron not being called out…. Why is Sam pilgrim who endorses them and creates videos riding them illegally not being called out…. You go on these sites where they are being sold there’s next to 0 information to say that these bikes are only to be used on private land and you cannot use them on any public land…. Yet you see TH-camrs with big influence endorsing them and riding them illegally… yet no one calls them out… people should be held accountable! Suron know damn well that the majority of there customers are using there products illegally which has lead to very serious consequences and they don’t give a damn!
@@cookster322002 I’ve seen many videos of him riding on public land including public skate parks…. Search for “Sam pilgrim urban free ride”…. Are you telling me he got permission from the council to ride it in those places with cars on the road? 😂 he endorses them yet his not once advised that these things can only be ridden on private land….. yes his ridden them on his own land or land where is had permission etc but he has made plenty of videos where his riding them where he shouldn’t… not hating on him as I’m a fan of his actual mtb but his suron stuff needs calling out especially given his influence on younger people! Suron are a huge problem especially when they are given to kids… and yes influencers should be held accountable for what they are “influencing” 😂
@@SubaruWRC1996yea and I’m saying they should be called out!! Not no long ago some kids were killed as the police were chasing them…. There was a video of them going passed a camera at high speed, 2 kids on one bike going…. The media said they were on e-bikes…. But that’s a throttle emotor bike that looks more closer to a motocross bike than a mtb… the police had that bike and never actually addressed the public that this was a emotor bike…. Suron and brands like them should be called out in my opinion as many people don’t understand the difference between what we ride and what these things are! And parents who are giving these bikes to their kids should be punished as well as it’s becoming a big problem!
Last year I stood aside to let some horse riders through, and one remarked on the climb I was about to tackle. When I said I've got a motor to help, she told me I wasn't allowed on the South Downs and no matter how I tried to explain what a pedal assist e-bike is, she kept insisting I look up the rules. The first page on South Downs National Park website actually lists a number of venues where you can hire e-bikes to use on their land. Yep, the same type of bike as mine. There's a lot of people out there who really need to be better informed. That program doesn't appear to be helping at all, it's just adding to the misinformation.
Hell, we can't even legally ride 25 percent of our trails in the United States. I would gladly give up 5 mph to have all trail access. Colorado is incredible, but they treat ebikes like poachers. I really need to start reaching out to people to join together to counter this injustice.
It is essentially an 'e-bike', but it is not a [class-1] PEDAL-ASSIST bike - the problem is the media (and general public as a whole, even amongst many cyclists) is ignorant to the fundamental distinction.
They are motorbikes that happen to have an electric motor. They are already banned and illegal unless insured, taxed etc. The issue is the UK Police do virtually NOTHING to stop them. And if the Police do hurt some illegal rider then the media again refers to some 15 year old kid on an e-bike, not an illegal, uninsured rider! I get so mad as my own Ducati costs me a fortune to insure and tax, why do I bother!!!???
Has no one ever considered just calling E mountain bikes ..Mountain bikes? Or mountain bikes with assist? This could go a long way to stop people thinking they are the same thing as Surrons and street e-bikes.
Steve thank you and great to see your RAGE about this. For any good it'll do I filled out a BBC complaint form - they don't make it easy! But felt I had to, as the programme was so filled with disinformation it was jaw dropping. I've been aware that for some reason the beeb doesn't seem to like bikes let alone e bikes, only featuring any bikes once every four years at the olympics. And almost nothing about mTBs or EMTBs. They are ignoring a very large minority of the 'license paying public'. God I sound like old man ranting at clouds now but this panorama program was deliberate in a shock horror tabloid daily mail fashion and it had no business being made by the BBC let alone a gilt edged, long standing doc programme like Panorama. Who greenly this? That's what I want to know because it was a deliberate hatchet job. So poor. It's 2025 and the status of bikes in this country in the media is in the bloody Stone Age. Pathetic. We'll never get a sensible transport plan involving major cycling infrastructure like Paris if this sort of anti-bike campaign keeps going. Councils won't let races like Tour Of Britain into their towns for fear of public and media backlash. It's crazy times. PS Angry Steve is great. Think you should have a deep dive sister channel on ebike issues from legal, social and stuff like forcing brands to make motors more 'Right To Repair'. I know you do some of this already, I love your digging into the water ingress issues into motors for example, you could really do more amazing stuff. Thanks!
The US speed limit on Type 1 at 20mph is good for my emtb riding in eco or trail mode. I will only hit limit on smoother trails/roads with minor uphill grade or less. Type 3 at 28mph for a road/commuter is great! Again will only hit that limit when pushing harder in eco or trail mode. Of course if you are riding Turbo mode, you will always be hitting those limits. Note that I live in a non urban area where roads have wide smooth shoulders. The trails are raw rocky trails that were Jeep, ranch or animal trails and non maintained bulldozed fire breaks that a small group of emtb guys will occasionally ride. My experience in this environment, these limits are good. I would probably do some kind of derestriction if they changed us to UK limits of 15mph. Especially on my commuter!
Same thing has happened in Australian media. We adopted the same Euro rule of 25km/h but shops openly sell unrestricted bikes that keep up with cars and don’t have pedals. Media just lumps them all together.
I live in shitsville Australia 🇦🇺 too laws are totally ridiculous I have an emoto bike and ride it on paths and trails never on the road because will probably be taken by cops who should be doing other things with their time . Bike is quiet so karens can't complain always slow down to a waking pace when passing other people walk my dog extra mile's each day at 6mph on it all good so far no complaints.
The bbc are appalling and the cycle industry need to hold them accountable and if necessary, sue them for blatant lying and misreporting facts that will have a detrimental impact on the industry. P.s. I don’t watch tv anymore and stopped paying the bbc tax.
I think a 250-watt motor limit is a joke. Makes them near pointless. They're limited to about 16mph regardless of motor size so watt power shouldn't matter. Mine is 565 watts and I'm still going to use it on the road
It should be standard that pedal assist (Class 1) is an ebike and (Class 2 and 3) with a throttle is an Emoto. It's a very simple solution that would solve a lot of misconceptions.
Class 3 is still pedal assist, they don't have a throttle. The only difference is they continue to assist up to 28mph (ie. traditionally 50cc scooter speed), which really is too fast for shared use pathways. Generally speaking though, the vast majority of Class 3 bikes are commuter or cargo style, so unlikely to ever be used on mountain-bike trails to begin with... The issue off-road has aways been the home-brew conversions (and cheap Chinese imports) and bloody Surrons!
@@yodapig I thought class 3 had pedal assist + throttle. They just need to make one or the other. If you want an ebike, you gotta pedal (class-1) ebike.. if you wanna a throttle and increased speed (class-2) E-moto. Solves the entire issue. No grey area. Most people that have commuter bikes don't wanna pedal anyways. If they did they could just get a class 1.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ fwiw. primarily it is Class-1 (pedal assist only, with limited power and an assist cut off at 20mph/15.5mph in Europe) and Class-2 - which can have a throttle in addition to pedal assist and/or with the ability to power completely by throttle. However technically Class-2 is also limited to 20mph assist (in either mode), even though a lot of them are derestricted. Class-3 is specifically for pedelec bikes with assistance over 20mph (ie. up to 28mph/45kph as specified in Europe), and really only applies to 'city' or cargo bikes used for commuting on roads, effectively as an electric alternative to a 50cc [petrol powered] moped. However, these do not have a throttle to essentially get around the licencing and insurance requirement you have with a petrol powered motor vehicle.
@@yodapig Yeah, I'd still just make them one or the other. That gets rid of all the confusion. Pedal assist (ONLY) with the 25mph limit (US) and Throttle (up to 45mph) This way it's easy to tell what is a bike and what is a moto.. Just by the pedals alone. No need to blur the lines.
It is mostly about the operator but some of these electric motorcycles are ruining it for everyone. I ride an R&M Superdelite speed (US version, 28mph max assist) 40--50 miles per day on beautiful a multiuse trail along a river/lake most of which is paved but there is a 10 mile single track path that I include hence my full suspension needs. I've put over 23,000 miles on this trail using several ebikes since 2020. I'm 73 and prior to 2020, I had road and mountain bikes hanging in my garage that were not being used. Ebike's re-introduced me to cycling and allowed me to go farther and faster than ever in my life. It has become a critical part of my exercise routine and now my wife has joined me in this activity that we can share both at home and on driving road trips to the California Coastline where we have discovered some amazing cycling trails. We ride courteously and cautiously respecting others right to use these multiuse trails and so we have received minimal friction from traditional cyclists and other trail users. I have seen more and more non-pedelec e-machines illegally appearing on these trails. I realize there is a danger of our losing this important recreational and fitness maintaining part of our lives due to the abuse by ignorant and inconsiderate people on machines that are inappropriate for these trails. Poorly researched stories like your BBC "report" seem to be the new click centered journalism that is making alternate facts a normal part of life. Please keep up your good work giving a responsible and accurate view of these important recreational and personal transportation segments. If used properly, they are a very positive aspect of new technology and our health and welfare.
E-motto like the Surrons are big problem in California. Also, here in AZ rural trails. Mostly, teens are getting cheap Surrons with pedal kits and silently ripp'n up the local Class 1 MTB trails.
Typical BBC let us not forget they employed such people as jimmy saville ...they need to get there facts straight ...I wouldn't be able to ride if it's wasn't for my emtb I have severe back problems and have had a hip replacement 5 months ago .. my bike gets me out riding which is not just good for exercise but for my mental health when I suffer constant pain
I dont think its fair to expect illegal immigrants working illegally for a food delivery company via another riders profile, to ride in an illegal manner with zero respect for any rules of the pavement or road, to ride on anything but an illegal bike.
@@stea21fon15 Deliveroo etc say that they have ways of telling if someone is on a throttle bike and ban them from the app. But this doesn’t seem to happen in practice
Just because your on a bike, does not mean your immune to all traffic laws, and other drivers, it sound like police are not enforcing regular traffic laws.
I dont think it’s true to say you WILL travel twice the distance in a year than you would on a normal bike! I have an e-bike and i still have a manual bike. I love riding my manual bike of the because of the nimbleness of it and its much more controlable. However in my aging years i have found it harder and harder to cope with the up hill side of the sport. This it to the point that i was considering quitting mountain biking all together, even though i love the sport. I brought an e-bike to help me up the hills so i can enjoy the down hills. My manual bike rides better down hill but have have to compromise so i can continue riding the trails. I don’t think i ride more miles as i do on my manual bike but it is a better experience overall! And keeps me in the sport
And this is why we don't want super powerful bikes like the amflow. It stops us being able to say "emtbs are actually not very powerful" when in fact some are. And it's also why derestricting your bike is not cool.
Hear me out. There should be a path for people to build or buy a bike with more power than the average/regulated emtb. Every mode of transportation prioritizes speed. Not to mention the clear financial separation of cost/power that something like a Surron offers compared to a top-of-the-line emtb. The more people on bikes of any kind, the better.
I didn't watch the BBC Panarama program but intended to. What you have said in this video confirms exactly what I expected to see from an uninformed, sensationalising media production company. The BBC pronounces itself as unbiased and factual but the reality is that it ( an I have noted this on other topics) often spins a subject in the way they want to present it either as positive or negative ( 90% of the time, the latter). I will not waste my time watching it now as you have confirmed exactly what I thought it would be.
We really need to stop using the term ' "Ebike". When they hear that term, most people think of an electric motorcycle. I wish we could start referring to pedal-assist mountain bikes simply as " Class 1 Bikes" I think it would end a lot of confusion.
At what point is an ebike an electic motorcycle that you have to licence and insure. I live in California and the US in general has not been kind to emtbs. I am 59 years old and have always been a "Clydesdale", emtbs just made it so my friends werent always waiting on me even though I was working harder than they were to keep up lol. I had to sell my class 1 emtb because they consider it a motorcycle on mtb trails. Ive seen a lot of people getting carried away going 40 mph on modified surrons on streets or even sidewalks and think to myself your not helping people be more accepting of ebikes. One way of looking at it if an ebike requires human power (IE pedal assist) to operate its at least partially a human powered vehicle, If its throttle driven then you could argue its a motorcycle, even little mopeds back in the eighties had to be licensed. Theres a lot of grey area here to figure out and people that push laws to their limits make it so we cant have nice things anymore unfortunately
I own a Surron and an ebike. To be honest, although i really like my highly modded Surron, i prefer my ebike for trail riding. The ebike is actually more fun, and a better workout. It's worth noting that I am 60 years old too.
Alot of the pushback to ebikes comes from two groups. Hikers and horse people. The horse people have alot of heavy rollers on their side. Much of the trail restrictions were started along time ago against mountain bike riders. Even before that dirt bikers were on the hit list. One other thing is we are over populating our outdoor resources. They are more crowded than ever.
I can't believe my license fee has gone towards this trash piece of TV, the hate towards electric motor bikes is going to impact legitimate users. Someone like the BBC has a responsibility to report to a higher standard and this is just typical of the clickbait anti cycling rhetoric being pedalled by some of the main stream media that should know better.
Lets not forget Adrian chiles has been entirely comfortable riding around on a big polluting motorbike...its petrol engine fully capable of 180 mph... but not limited to 75mph. Chile's totally missed the environmental benefits of ebikes. He wants everybody driving cars and that there is no change to the status quo. He does not mention any comparative statistics to the amount of cyclists killed by cars or deaths driving cars... Chiles also does not understand that motors built for the american market or swiss market for example where the speed limit is 28 and are 600- 750 watt motors but limited by software for the uk market. He thinks that all motors should be physically limited to 250 watts. He does not realize all ebike motors are made in europe or China. No one in the uk is making motors as far as I know. This is the worst panorama program ever made...pure shit.
The problem is the e-bike label. There are e-bikes and e-motor cycles but both are called e-bikes. If it has a throttle and goes without pedaling, then it should be called an e-motor cycle.
I see a new Talaria Sting MX 4 going for $1350 USA. It is tempting but there are few places to legally ride. I almost think that is a better mate to my analog bike than a pedal-assist mtb.
What’s odd if powered on street why isn’t any ebike particularly assisted not limited to 30 mph as a moped 50cc is supposed to be , ? Then make everybody have a 16 onwards bike licence like mopeds
Please, look. I’m 73 now. The speed for cars has been lowered to 30mph on city streets. I’ve got my throttled bike to 30mph top speed. Yeh, o could gear it to go 40mph. My diy E-MTB is geared for uphill. I’m in fairly rough shape, currently at least 20lbs over weight. I need my 1500 watt, 160nm torque to get my lazy fat ass to the top of the hill to get my jollies going down. But wait, uphill IS a different sport. It nice to get to the top without any real effort at all. Bla bla bla… You guys seem to have to no idea where some of our commuters / errand bikes are our MTB. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. To be able to do traffic 20 years ago on an e-bike would be the dream. And so it is today for some of us. Well, to me, I’m retired. But I still have to merge with traffic to get to the beer store. Actually makes my day sometimes…
E-bicycles/ pedelacs are regulated they are a pedal assisted bicycle. They can be ridden on roads and cycle paths and bridle ways etc. The throttle powered e motor bikes should only be sold in the Uk if registered and taxed like motorcycles. Why allow the sale of a Suron without regulation.
ALL cycles/bikes/ebikes including manual/leg-power bicycles, pedelecs, speed-pedelecs and all the other "illegal" hybrids or epacs with increased power/speed-assist thresholds/throttles etc... '---> should ALL be "tested/MOT'd/similar", plus "Registered" (the "number plate" or registration number should be printed front +rear onto a body-worn diagonal high-vis sash with a waist band). **We all have passports to get on a plane. We'd get used to it!! **Insurance to be required too on the motor-assist ones. Manual ones could get a free pass for the mo'.
I only saw a few minutes but that was enough to know if was, at best misguided. In any city you can clearly see illegal bikes. The law should allow for them to be confiscated and the delivery company suspended. It won't happen until there is a high profile fatality.
This is the unfortunately obvious result of e-motorbikes and e-bicycles. I've counted numerous times when out on a multi-use pathway here the majority of powered vehicles are technically illegal to be on these pathways as they are outright e-motorbikes, or bikes that have a throttle with no pedaling input necessary. The bikeshops here are good about labeling what's legal and allowed but amazon or aliexpress offer no such guidance. My assumption is that most people on these illegal bikes are just ignorant of the restrictions and not flaunting the laws. I'm also now regularly seeing gas powered(usually homemade) motorbikes out on the paths as well. I ride over 10,000 KM per year and have never seen any enforcement of these laws here so this is what you get
To be fair, almost all shared use paths [in the US] have a posted speed limit of 15mph anyway, so the current Class-1 specification is more than sufficient. Your typical MTB gearing of 32/10 also means your cadence is pretty close to maxed out at that speed anyway - certainly for any length of time unless you are very fit. Meanwhile, once you're heading downhill you can go as fast as any other non-assisted bike if you're bravery and experience allows - the assist is primarily there to help you UP hills.
BBC Panarama need to be held accountable by the bike industry, for poor reporting and misinformation. Typical BBC, do more harm than good! Maybe the bike industry need to produce a programme and demand the bbc show it, due to the harm that the bbc has done to genuine legal e-bikes, their owners and the industry.
Need to be upped to 20mph. Loads of the roads in Bristol at 20 limits. 15.5 is too slow. If it was 20 then cars wouldnt need to overtake. I cycle faster than 15.5 on my xc bike so going to on my ebike at 15.5 sucks :(
Idea. The bike app knows where it is. On or Offroad. Surely advanced software can limit the speed based location. Public street or Off road. DJI could do it tomorrow. E=mtb²
@ yes, fwiw. I think the UK/EU should certainly adopt the US limit of 32kph/20mph - then call that good for Class 1 and concentrate on making the motors more reliable and increasing range/efficiency, rather than continually focusing on [and promoting] 'peak power' which by inference means more speed more of the time...
This is a pretence to taxing ebike users, turn the general public against first then tax with no opposition.which will then lead to taxing normal bikes.
Its mad looking at these comments, whenever i've looked at embn comments before its full of people with £500 carreras with electric kits bragging about how fast they are, plus i bet half the people commenting who have legit eeb's have got them deristricted. I remember embn showing illegal bikes, and that old geezer steve's mate who built a bike in his shed. Its all fun and games until the shit hits the fan
That programme got me so mad i could only watch a minute or so before i emailed the panorama team with a tirade. I work in active travel and nothing p1sses me off more than this constant battering of human powered machines by the media in favour of presumably further car use. I can see this fuelling even more hatred towards cyclists, its just so terrifyingly ironic.
The BBC with their poor reporting and being biased towards e-bikes going surrons are ebikes when they are not as kinda put me off riding my hidoes B6 that doesn't have a throttle and is limited to 15mph and the police said it okay to use as long as it's not been altered in anyway now I'm worried about using my hardtail with the yose power kit it's like they just don't want people using them or manual bikes and we all should be extremely overweight
The industry needs to Change our bikes from “e-bike” to “e-MTB” . Completely Legal e motorbikes also already exist like the zero and supersoco so calling a Suron an e motorbike doesn’t help and they have no interest in changing anyway.
Dreadful program, it was like someone has a vendetta against ebikes. Why not invite Mr Childs onto the programme and educate him of the real facts, keep up the great work chaps.
There are quarter of a million people here on this channel. Use them to make a changeuk matter for parliament to discuss if we get over ? 000 sign up to it
we need all to stop using the term Ebike........it does not exist as a vehicle category in any legislation. Our bikes are EPACs and ( in the UK) any 2 wheeled vehicle that does not concur to the EPAC regulations is a moped or motorbike.
ALL cycles/bikes/ebikes including manual/leg-power bicycles, pedelecs, speed-pedelecs and all the other "illegal" hybrids or epacs with increased power/speed-assist thresholds/throttles etc... '---> should ALL be "tested/MOT'd/similar" plus "Registered" (the "number plate" or registration number should be printed front +rear onto a body-worn diagonal high-vis sash with a waist band. **We all have passports to get on a plane. We'd get used to it!! **Insurance to be required too on the motor-assist ones. Manual ones could get a free pass for the mo'.
It's the media's fault, cloaking everything under the e-bike shadow. E-mountain bikes should have always been called peddle assist.. so rename your youtube account to PA-MBN immediately 😂😂
The comparison to the speeds of a road cyclist are really irrelevant. For a cyclist to ride at speeds of 25 mph+ requires years to decades of training and experience where unrestricted ebikes do not and it's very obvious with the ebikers around here to are now going faster than they have the skills or experience to handle
Don't know about that. When I hopped on a $300 road bike 20 years ago I was regularly hitting 24mph on flats for tens of miles at a time. Self powered. Not that crazy of a feat.
Some of the worst ineffectual reporting I have seen for some time, and don't get me started about his riding style on the motorbike ! The only information that was correct, was the UK speed limit for E-bikes, and in my opinion, it is way too low for road use. I can go way faster on my normal mountain bikes than on the E-bike. Ant the miss information about battery fires that clubs us all together with the badly built DIY made bikes that have batteries that done have BMS system built into the batteries along with the wrong chargers. My Piss is boiling !
I would just like to say, when you go on about these illegal kit owners, that it is those very people that made electric bikes popular. You are attacking the roots for one branch, Bloody typical . .
Steve, have you pushed the BBC as a “right of reply” on behalf of us legal, long time emtb bikers - surely this where you’re platform really had a voice instead of preaching to the converted 🤔
What are your thoughts on how the media portrays eBikes? Let us know in the comments below!
explaining even friends the difference between pedelec and throttle bike is hilariously diffiicult until they try both. Media can impose whatever narrative they like. How come having swiss army knife in your backpack can bring you troubles in London?
I watched this programme and came to the conclusion that it was typical of the sort of clickbait journalism on which much of the BBC now relies. I dob't totally blame the BBC, their News Departments have been eviscerated by corporate incompetence in recent years and this is what we're left with.
What a minute! Are you telling me that the "news media" are providing fake news. This must be a new thing. 😂
Typical BBC rubbish reporting.
Wankerz 😂
So why don't you call them out, get the researchers, directors etc on your platform and challenge the misinformation spilled out by the BBC, they need educating about our sport / hobby.
Why are suron not being called out…. Why is Sam pilgrim who endorses them and creates videos riding them illegally not being called out…. You go on these sites where they are being sold there’s next to 0 information to say that these bikes are only to be used on private land and you cannot use them on any public land…. Yet you see TH-camrs with big influence endorsing them and riding them illegally… yet no one calls them out… people should be held accountable! Suron know damn well that the majority of there customers are using there products illegally which has lead to very serious consequences and they don’t give a damn!
San pilgrim does not ride them illegally though. He rides them on private land with the permission of the land owner. Perfectly fine.
@@cookster322002 I’ve seen many videos of him riding on public land including public skate parks…. Search for “Sam pilgrim urban free ride”…. Are you telling me he got permission from the council to ride it in those places with cars on the road? 😂 he endorses them yet his not once advised that these things can only be ridden on private land….. yes his ridden them on his own land or land where is had permission etc but he has made plenty of videos where his riding them where he shouldn’t… not hating on him as I’m a fan of his actual mtb but his suron stuff needs calling out especially given his influence on younger people! Suron are a huge problem especially when they are given to kids… and yes influencers should be held accountable for what they are “influencing” 😂
They weren't really calling surron out. They was saying that E-mtb's and surrons aren't the same thing which they aren't
@@SubaruWRC1996yea and I’m saying they should be called out!! Not no long ago some kids were killed as the police were chasing them…. There was a video of them going passed a camera at high speed, 2 kids on one bike going…. The media said they were on e-bikes…. But that’s a throttle emotor bike that looks more closer to a motocross bike than a mtb… the police had that bike and never actually addressed the public that this was a emotor bike…. Suron and brands like them should be called out in my opinion as many people don’t understand the difference between what we ride and what these things are! And parents who are giving these bikes to their kids should be punished as well as it’s becoming a big problem!
@kevb8828 yeah that's true. Also, the phone thefts and stuff in London are on surrons, too.
They dont ACTUALLY want you using cheap, affordable, green transportation. They simply want to sell you this idea for your entire life.
Last year I stood aside to let some horse riders through, and one remarked on the climb I was about to tackle. When I said I've got a motor to help, she told me I wasn't allowed on the South Downs and no matter how I tried to explain what a pedal assist e-bike is, she kept insisting I look up the rules. The first page on South Downs National Park website actually lists a number of venues where you can hire e-bikes to use on their land. Yep, the same type of bike as mine. There's a lot of people out there who really need to be better informed. That program doesn't appear to be helping at all, it's just adding to the misinformation.
Hell, we can't even legally ride 25 percent of our trails in the United States. I would gladly give up 5 mph to have all trail access. Colorado is incredible, but they treat ebikes like poachers. I really need to start reaching out to people to join together to counter this injustice.
Come to Nevada we love ebikes 👍
The few that spoil it for everyone else just like E scooters
Nothing wrong with an e-scooter either, it's the operator that causes the issue not the vehicle.
Anything with a throttle is not an ebike
It is essentially an 'e-bike', but it is not a [class-1] PEDAL-ASSIST bike - the problem is the media (and general public as a whole, even amongst many cyclists) is ignorant to the fundamental distinction.
They are motorbikes that happen to have an electric motor. They are already banned and illegal unless insured, taxed etc. The issue is the UK Police do virtually NOTHING to stop them. And if the Police do hurt some illegal rider then the media again refers to some 15 year old kid on an e-bike, not an illegal, uninsured rider! I get so mad as my own Ducati costs me a fortune to insure and tax, why do I bother!!!???
The police are too busy investigating non-crimes or arresting people for using hurty words. 😅
Norway is absolutely gorgeous btw!
Has no one ever considered just calling E mountain bikes ..Mountain bikes? Or mountain bikes with assist? This could go a long way to stop people thinking they are the same thing as Surrons and street e-bikes.
@@MastaShredduh bloody good shout. Call them "assisted mountain bikes" .. and leave the 'e' moniker to everyone else.
I call them Cheater Bikes on the trails. 😂
@@SkarryTerry Cheating at what? Having fun?
When has the press allowed the truth to get in the way of a good story.
Steve thank you and great to see your RAGE about this. For any good it'll do I filled out a BBC complaint form - they don't make it easy! But felt I had to, as the programme was so filled with disinformation it was jaw dropping. I've been aware that for some reason the beeb doesn't seem to like bikes let alone e bikes, only featuring any bikes once every four years at the olympics. And almost nothing about mTBs or EMTBs. They are ignoring a very large minority of the 'license paying public'. God I sound like old man ranting at clouds now but this panorama program was deliberate in a shock horror tabloid daily mail fashion and it had no business being made by the BBC let alone a gilt edged, long standing doc programme like Panorama. Who greenly this? That's what I want to know because it was a deliberate hatchet job. So poor. It's 2025 and the status of bikes in this country in the media is in the bloody Stone Age. Pathetic. We'll never get a sensible transport plan involving major cycling infrastructure like Paris if this sort of anti-bike campaign keeps going. Councils won't let races like Tour Of Britain into their towns for fear of public and media backlash. It's crazy times. PS Angry Steve is great. Think you should have a deep dive sister channel on ebike issues from legal, social and stuff like forcing brands to make motors more 'Right To Repair'. I know you do some of this already, I love your digging into the water ingress issues into motors for example, you could really do more amazing stuff. Thanks!
The US speed limit on Type 1 at 20mph is good for my emtb riding in eco or trail mode. I will only hit limit on smoother trails/roads with minor uphill grade or less. Type 3 at 28mph for a road/commuter is great! Again will only hit that limit when pushing harder in eco or trail mode. Of course if you are riding Turbo mode, you will always be hitting those limits. Note that I live in a non urban area where roads have wide smooth shoulders. The trails are raw rocky trails that were Jeep, ranch or animal trails and non maintained bulldozed fire breaks that a small group of emtb guys will occasionally ride. My experience in this environment, these limits are good. I would probably do some kind of derestriction if they changed us to UK limits of 15mph. Especially on my commuter!
Same thing has happened in Australian media. We adopted the same Euro rule of 25km/h but shops openly sell unrestricted bikes that keep up with cars and don’t have pedals. Media just lumps them all together.
I live in shitsville Australia 🇦🇺 too laws are totally ridiculous I have an emoto bike and ride it on paths and trails never on the road because will probably be taken by cops who should be doing other things with their time . Bike is quiet so karens can't complain always slow down to a waking pace when passing other people walk my dog extra mile's each day at 6mph on it all good so far no complaints.
With regard to the warranty comment, the ads here in Australia for the amflow are advertising a 5 year warranty.
The bbc are appalling and the cycle industry need to hold them accountable and if necessary, sue them for blatant lying and misreporting facts that will have a detrimental impact on the industry. P.s. I don’t watch tv anymore and stopped paying the bbc tax.
Regardless of what ever they say about e-bikes , car drivers and cars are lethal weapons compared .
I think a 250-watt motor limit is a joke. Makes them near pointless. They're limited to about 16mph regardless of motor size so watt power shouldn't matter. Mine is 565 watts and I'm still going to use it on the road
It should be standard that pedal assist (Class 1) is an ebike and (Class 2 and 3) with a throttle is an Emoto. It's a very simple solution that would solve a lot of misconceptions.
Class 3 is still pedal assist, they don't have a throttle. The only difference is they continue to assist up to 28mph (ie. traditionally 50cc scooter speed), which really is too fast for shared use pathways. Generally speaking though, the vast majority of Class 3 bikes are commuter or cargo style, so unlikely to ever be used on mountain-bike trails to begin with...
The issue off-road has aways been the home-brew conversions (and cheap Chinese imports) and bloody Surrons!
Geneva convention would have to reconvene. Not happening
@@yodapig I thought class 3 had pedal assist + throttle. They just need to make one or the other. If you want an ebike, you gotta pedal (class-1) ebike.. if you wanna a throttle and increased speed (class-2) E-moto. Solves the entire issue. No grey area. Most people that have commuter bikes don't wanna pedal anyways. If they did they could just get a class 1.
@@_Jake.From.Statefarm_ fwiw. primarily it is Class-1 (pedal assist only, with limited power and an assist cut off at 20mph/15.5mph in Europe) and Class-2 - which can have a throttle in addition to pedal assist and/or with the ability to power completely by throttle. However technically Class-2 is also limited to 20mph assist (in either mode), even though a lot of them are derestricted.
Class-3 is specifically for pedelec bikes with assistance over 20mph (ie. up to 28mph/45kph as specified in Europe), and really only applies to 'city' or cargo bikes used for commuting on roads, effectively as an electric alternative to a 50cc [petrol powered] moped. However, these do not have a throttle to essentially get around the licencing and insurance requirement you have with a petrol powered motor vehicle.
@@yodapig Yeah, I'd still just make them one or the other. That gets rid of all the confusion. Pedal assist (ONLY) with the 25mph limit (US) and Throttle (up to 45mph) This way it's easy to tell what is a bike and what is a moto.. Just by the pedals alone. No need to blur the lines.
50 of them sit outside McDonald’s in town on crazy modded bikes and the police don’t give a shit.
It is mostly about the operator but some of these electric motorcycles are ruining it for everyone. I ride an R&M Superdelite speed (US version, 28mph max assist) 40--50 miles per day on beautiful a multiuse trail along a river/lake most of which is paved but there is a 10 mile single track path that I include hence my full suspension needs. I've put over 23,000 miles on this trail using several ebikes since 2020.
I'm 73 and prior to 2020, I had road and mountain bikes hanging in my garage that were not being used. Ebike's re-introduced me to cycling and allowed me to go farther and faster than ever in my life. It has become a critical part of my exercise routine and now my wife has joined me in this activity that we can share both at home and on driving road trips to the California Coastline where we have discovered some amazing cycling trails. We ride courteously and cautiously respecting others right to use these multiuse trails and so we have received minimal friction from traditional cyclists and other trail users. I have seen more and more non-pedelec e-machines illegally appearing on these trails.
I realize there is a danger of our losing this important recreational and fitness maintaining part of our lives due to the abuse by ignorant and inconsiderate people on machines that are inappropriate for these trails. Poorly researched stories like your BBC "report" seem to be the new click centered journalism that is making alternate facts a normal part of life. Please keep up your good work giving a responsible and accurate view of these important recreational and personal transportation segments. If used properly, they are a very positive aspect of new technology and our health and welfare.
The bikes being used by delivery riders that are illegal in this country are not hard to regulate. They are illegal! The police should seize them.
Keep up the good work ❤
E-motto like the Surrons are big problem in California. Also, here in AZ rural trails. Mostly, teens are getting cheap Surrons with pedal kits and silently ripp'n up the local Class 1 MTB trails.
Typical BBC let us not forget they employed such people as jimmy saville ...they need to get there facts straight ...I wouldn't be able to ride if it's wasn't for my emtb I have severe back problems and have had a hip replacement 5 months ago .. my bike gets me out riding which is not just good for exercise but for my mental health when I suffer constant pain
I dont think its fair to expect illegal immigrants working illegally for a food delivery company via another riders profile, to ride in an illegal manner with zero respect for any rules of the pavement or road, to ride on anything but an illegal bike.
@@stea21fon15 Deliveroo etc say that they have ways of telling if someone is on a throttle bike and ban them from the app. But this doesn’t seem to happen in practice
Just because your on a bike, does not mean your immune to all traffic laws, and other drivers, it sound like police are not enforcing regular traffic laws.
I dont think it’s true to say you WILL travel twice the distance in a year than you would on a normal bike! I have an e-bike and i still have a manual bike. I love riding my manual bike of the because of the nimbleness of it and its much more controlable. However in my aging years i have found it harder and harder to cope with the up hill side of the sport. This it to the point that i was considering quitting mountain biking all together, even though i love the sport. I brought an e-bike to help me up the hills so i can enjoy the down hills. My manual bike rides better down hill but have have to compromise so i can continue riding the trails. I don’t think i ride more miles as i do on my manual bike but it is a better experience overall! And keeps me in the sport
It's simple If it has a throttle it a "motorbike" if it does not it is an ebike
And this is why we don't want super powerful bikes like the amflow. It stops us being able to say "emtbs are actually not very powerful" when in fact some are.
And it's also why derestricting your bike is not cool.
Hear me out. There should be a path for people to build or buy a bike with more power than the average/regulated emtb. Every mode of transportation prioritizes speed. Not to mention the clear financial separation of cost/power that something like a Surron offers compared to a top-of-the-line emtb. The more people on bikes of any kind, the better.
@@dylanpierce_ there is a path for surron to go. Make them road legal motorbikes.
@@cookster322002 yep, just like a 50cc or 125cc petrol powered bike.
4:16 Like cars aren't used in crime? :D This is just a crazy smear piece by the auto/oil industry.
I didn't watch the BBC Panarama program but intended to. What you have said in this video confirms exactly what I expected to see from an uninformed, sensationalising media production company. The BBC pronounces itself as unbiased and factual but the reality is that it ( an I have noted this on other topics) often spins a subject in the way they want to present it either as positive or negative ( 90% of the time, the latter). I will not waste my time watching it now as you have confirmed exactly what I thought it would be.
We really need to stop using the term ' "Ebike". When they hear that term, most people think of an electric motorcycle. I wish we could start referring to pedal-assist mountain bikes simply as " Class 1 Bikes" I think it would end a lot of confusion.
At what point is an ebike an electic motorcycle that you have to licence and insure. I live in California and the US in general has not been kind to emtbs. I am 59 years old and have always been a "Clydesdale", emtbs just made it so my friends werent always waiting on me even though I was working harder than they were to keep up lol. I had to sell my class 1 emtb because they consider it a motorcycle on mtb trails. Ive seen a lot of people getting carried away going 40 mph on modified surrons on streets or even sidewalks and think to myself your not helping people be more accepting of ebikes. One way of looking at it if an ebike requires human power (IE pedal assist) to operate its at least partially a human powered vehicle, If its throttle driven then you could argue its a motorcycle, even little mopeds back in the eighties had to be licensed. Theres a lot of grey area here to figure out and people that push laws to their limits make it so we cant have nice things anymore unfortunately
Drive a Volvo everywhere,the BBC would be happy
I own a Surron and an ebike. To be honest, although i really like my highly modded Surron, i prefer my ebike for trail riding. The ebike is actually more fun, and a better workout. It's worth noting that I am 60 years old too.
Alot of the pushback to ebikes comes from two groups. Hikers and horse people. The horse people have alot of heavy rollers on their side. Much of the trail restrictions were started along time ago against mountain bike riders. Even before that dirt bikers were on the hit list. One other thing is we are over populating our outdoor resources. They are more crowded than ever.
I can't believe my license fee has gone towards this trash piece of TV, the hate towards electric motor bikes is going to impact legitimate users. Someone like the BBC has a responsibility to report to a higher standard and this is just typical of the clickbait anti cycling rhetoric being pedalled by some of the main stream media that should know better.
We have the same problem with PBS in the States.
What gets me is the number of people who buy a new emtb and the 1st thing they wanna do is derestrict it!
just emailed panorama look forward to thier response
Lets not forget Adrian chiles has been entirely comfortable riding around on a big polluting motorbike...its petrol engine fully capable of 180 mph... but not limited to 75mph.
Chile's totally missed the environmental benefits of ebikes. He wants everybody driving cars and that there is no change to the status quo. He does not mention any comparative statistics to the amount of cyclists killed by cars or deaths driving cars...
Chiles also does not understand that motors built for the american market or swiss market for example where the speed limit is 28 and are 600- 750 watt motors but limited by software for the uk market. He thinks that all motors should be physically limited to 250 watts. He does not realize all ebike motors are made in europe or China. No one in the uk is making motors as far as I know.
This is the worst panorama program ever made...pure shit.
Steve I think you need to right a letter to points of view 👍🏻Not sure Gary Took is still around though 😂
The problem is the e-bike label. There are e-bikes and e-motor cycles but both are called e-bikes. If it has a throttle and goes without pedaling, then it should be called an e-motor cycle.
How about powered mt bike instead of ebike
'assisted' is the word.
Never mentions he's an x racer Only every opportunity 😂😂
I see a new Talaria Sting MX 4 going for $1350 USA. It is tempting but there are few places to legally ride. I almost think that is a better mate to my analog bike than a pedal-assist mtb.
What’s odd if powered on street why isn’t any ebike particularly assisted not limited to 30 mph as a moped 50cc is supposed to be , ? Then make everybody have a 16 onwards bike licence like mopeds
Please, look. I’m 73 now. The speed for cars has been lowered to 30mph on city streets. I’ve got my throttled bike to 30mph top speed. Yeh, o could gear it to go 40mph. My diy E-MTB is geared for uphill. I’m in fairly rough shape, currently at least 20lbs over weight.
I need my 1500 watt, 160nm torque to get my lazy fat ass to the top of the hill to get my jollies going down. But wait, uphill IS a different sport.
It nice to get to the top without any real effort at all.
Bla bla bla…
You guys seem to have to no idea where some of our commuters / errand bikes are our MTB.
I’ve been doing this for 30 years. To be able to do traffic 20 years ago on an e-bike would be the dream.
And so it is today for some of us.
Well, to me, I’m retired. But I still have to merge with traffic to get to the beer store. Actually makes my day sometimes…
It’s the gun argument in the USA
is it me or those frames on the wall are identical but different brands...
I think dealers should start selling used ebikes and taking ebikes in part ex against a new bike
I expected nothing less from that program - always had their own agenda
E-bicycles/ pedelacs are regulated they are a pedal assisted bicycle.
They can be ridden on roads and cycle paths and bridle ways etc.
The throttle powered e motor bikes should only be sold in the Uk if registered and taxed like motorcycles.
Why allow the sale of a Suron without regulation.
You get 5 years warranty with Specialized
Nope not the motor and battery that's only 2 years. Here in UK anyway.
@ has it changed? My 5 years ended last November. Gen 2 levo.
It was just click bait of the highest order. There was zero balance or explanation of the difference between legal and illegal e-bikes.
Why cutting to GCN shots lol
ALL cycles/bikes/ebikes including manual/leg-power bicycles, pedelecs, speed-pedelecs and all the other "illegal" hybrids or epacs with increased power/speed-assist thresholds/throttles etc...
'---> should ALL be "tested/MOT'd/similar",
plus "Registered"
(the "number plate" or registration number should be printed front +rear onto a body-worn diagonal high-vis sash with a waist band).
**We all have passports to get on a plane. We'd get used to it!!
**Insurance to be required too on the motor-assist ones.
Manual ones could get a free pass for the mo'.
I only saw a few minutes but that was enough to know if was, at best misguided. In any city you can clearly see illegal bikes. The law should allow for them to be confiscated and the delivery company suspended. It won't happen until there is a high profile fatality.
Lol about 1 million killed by cars worldwide per year yet no signs of them being banned. 😂
This is the unfortunately obvious result of e-motorbikes and e-bicycles. I've counted numerous times when out on a multi-use pathway here the majority of powered vehicles are technically illegal to be on these pathways as they are outright e-motorbikes, or bikes that have a throttle with no pedaling input necessary. The bikeshops here are good about labeling what's legal and allowed but amazon or aliexpress offer no such guidance. My assumption is that most people on these illegal bikes are just ignorant of the restrictions and not flaunting the laws. I'm also now regularly seeing gas powered(usually homemade) motorbikes out on the paths as well. I ride over 10,000 KM per year and have never seen any enforcement of these laws here so this is what you get
We are 20 mph regulated on trail emtb, i wish it was 25 or 30 hit the wall alot at 20
It's 15.5mph in the UK.
To be fair, almost all shared use paths [in the US] have a posted speed limit of 15mph anyway, so the current Class-1 specification is more than sufficient. Your typical MTB gearing of 32/10 also means your cadence is pretty close to maxed out at that speed anyway - certainly for any length of time unless you are very fit.
Meanwhile, once you're heading downhill you can go as fast as any other non-assisted bike if you're bravery and experience allows - the assist is primarily there to help you UP hills.
BBC Panarama need to be held accountable by the bike industry, for poor reporting and misinformation. Typical BBC, do more harm than good!
Maybe the bike industry need to produce a programme and demand the bbc show it, due to the harm that the bbc has done to genuine legal e-bikes, their owners and the industry.
Why don’t the police confiscated illegal e-bikes surly it must be easy in a city
If it can go without pedaling it shouldn't be called an E-Bike.
call them motorcycles cause that is what they are
Need to be upped to 20mph. Loads of the roads in Bristol at 20 limits. 15.5 is too slow. If it was 20 then cars wouldnt need to overtake. I cycle faster than 15.5 on my xc bike so going to on my ebike at 15.5 sucks :(
E bikes are ebikes,both have motors
Idea. The bike app knows where it is. On or Offroad.
Surely advanced software can limit the speed based location. Public street or Off road. DJI could do it tomorrow.
E=mtb²
Do you really want that?
The onus is on YOU to police yourself, not a 3rd party who will inevitably use it to cream a load of money out of you too.
@yodapig The problem is On the city streets . Yes much better than permanently being limited to 25kph everywhere.
@ yes, fwiw. I think the UK/EU should certainly adopt the US limit of 32kph/20mph - then call that good for Class 1 and concentrate on making the motors more reliable and increasing range/efficiency, rather than continually focusing on [and promoting] 'peak power' which by inference means more speed more of the time...
This is a pretence to taxing ebike users, turn the general public against first then tax with no opposition.which will then lead to taxing normal bikes.
Its mad looking at these comments, whenever i've looked at embn comments before its full of people with £500 carreras with electric kits bragging about how fast they are, plus i bet half the people commenting who have legit eeb's have got them deristricted.
I remember embn showing illegal bikes, and that old geezer steve's mate who built a bike in his shed.
Its all fun and games until the shit hits the fan
That programme got me so mad i could only watch a minute or so before i emailed the panorama team with a tirade.
I work in active travel and nothing p1sses me off more than this constant battering of human powered machines by the media in favour of presumably further car use.
I can see this fuelling even more hatred towards cyclists, its just so terrifyingly ironic.
The BBC with their poor reporting and being biased towards e-bikes going surrons are ebikes when they are not as kinda put me off riding my hidoes B6 that doesn't have a throttle and is limited to 15mph and the police said it okay to use as long as it's not been altered in anyway now I'm worried about using my hardtail with the yose power kit it's like they just don't want people using them or manual bikes and we all should be extremely overweight
The industry needs to
Change our bikes from “e-bike” to “e-MTB” . Completely Legal e motorbikes also already exist like the zero and supersoco so calling a Suron an e motorbike doesn’t help and they have no interest in changing anyway.
The UK citizens need to get used to E-bikes, cos the majority of people will not be able to afford electric cars.
Haters,just like when snow boards came out in the early 80s. People are too ignorant 😒e bikes are the most fun thing u can do ❤
Ebikes are the future whether people like it or not.
@sd5458 i can't get myself to go backwards and get on a regular mtb i just can't do it
Dreadful program, it was like someone has a vendetta against ebikes. Why not invite Mr Childs onto the programme and educate him of the real facts, keep up the great work chaps.
Cancel your TV licence
There are quarter of a million people here on this channel. Use them to make a changeuk matter for parliament to discuss if we get over ? 000 sign up to it
we need all to stop using the term Ebike........it does not exist as a vehicle category in any legislation. Our bikes are EPACs and ( in the UK) any 2 wheeled vehicle that does not concur to the EPAC regulations is a moped or motorbike.
ALL cycles/bikes/ebikes including manual/leg-power bicycles, pedelecs, speed-pedelecs and all the other "illegal" hybrids or epacs with increased power/speed-assist thresholds/throttles etc...
'---> should ALL be "tested/MOT'd/similar"
plus "Registered"
(the "number plate" or registration number should be printed front +rear onto a body-worn diagonal high-vis sash with a waist band.
**We all have passports to get on a plane. We'd get used to it!!
**Insurance to be required too on the motor-assist ones.
Manual ones could get a free pass for the mo'.
people still watch 'prime time television'?
As soon as I heard the BBC were to show a programme on E-bikes, I avoided watching it…………
It's the media's fault, cloaking everything under the e-bike shadow. E-mountain bikes should have always been called peddle assist.. so rename your youtube account to PA-MBN immediately 😂😂
too bad you dont share the same ideas about firearms, you could be cool and free like us in the states.... Its not a bike problem is a human issue
The comparison to the speeds of a road cyclist are really irrelevant. For a cyclist to ride at speeds of 25 mph+ requires years to decades of training and experience where unrestricted ebikes do not and it's very obvious with the ebikers around here to are now going faster than they have the skills or experience to handle
Don't know about that. When I hopped on a $300 road bike 20 years ago I was regularly hitting 24mph on flats for tens of miles at a time. Self powered. Not that crazy of a feat.
Some of the worst ineffectual reporting I have seen for some time, and don't get me started about his riding style on the motorbike !
The only information that was correct, was the UK speed limit for E-bikes, and in my opinion, it is way too low for road use. I can go way faster on my normal mountain bikes than on the E-bike. Ant the miss information about battery fires that clubs us all together with the badly built DIY made bikes that have batteries that done have BMS system built into the batteries along with the wrong chargers.
My Piss is boiling !
Whos the guy on the right. He's unbearable in his ignorant sweeping statements. Is there much worse representation in this industry than him
I would just like to say, when you go on about these illegal kit owners, that it is those very people that made electric bikes popular. You are attacking the roots for one branch, Bloody typical . .
Steve, have you pushed the BBC as a “right of reply” on behalf of us legal, long time emtb bikers - surely this where you’re platform really had a voice instead of preaching to the converted 🤔
Misinformation from the BBC? surely not!
Your going to need registration and insurance by 2026.
Typical BBC BS program.