Fun fact - Mangonels and Cannons at release were much more accurate (to the point that you could snipe generals with them). Scrubs in multiplayer complained that's those stationary units were overpowered at thus we arrived at their current nerfed version ;DDDD. Sometimes you gotta wonder what is going through mind of average TW player when making complaint.
@@Sanvone tell me about it. CA kind of overreacts to that stuff. Odrysian Kingdom from Rome 2 was like that. Came out way OP, then got nerfed to the point where it became impossible to win with them
@@darkjedi55 I remember Odrysians - weren't their shortcoming being vulnerable to projectiles? I mostly remember that people were furious that their melee rushes were best quality wise. Thing is that those mangonels were as good as stationary artillery in R2 from what I remember. But people couldn't be bothered to walk around... As TW are mostly comfort games and many strategy gamers just stick to one gameplan and refuse to adapt I think that it can only become worse and worse. I still remember one of my first MP matches in which as Athens I skirmished down Roman player and had to listen to his outburst and demands of me conceding game asme shooting his infantry with Cretan Archers was unfair/bs tactic and it was matchmaking without any rules.
@@Sanvone reminds me of my multiplayer days in M&B W Napoleonic Wars, lots of the big guild line battles had lots of clever player and irl historical tactics banned: because the guild leaders and server mods couldn't stand losing. So everything apart from standing in a 1 man infantry line was and still is completely banned. Artillery wasn't allowed to position, and cavalry was either forced to dismount or banned outright. Being in a cavalry guild so fun /s
ironically their is a tech that makes them more accurate as well. i want to say its attack by fire but i dont remember. its the one before gunpower mastery.
You are just not using mangonels correctly. You need 4 doomstacks and then you can finally win a single siege by using all four stack and telling them to aim for the middle of the city. With the amazing accuracy that they have they will most likley nuke the town and at least one of your generals. I hope I just explained you how to get gud with mangonels in Shogun 2. Next time I will explain how to play european cannons. (hint: 6 stacks). A bit offtopic: I find it funny how much siege weapons can vary in Total War games. In Attila you can annihilate cavalry units while in Shogun 2 you can not even destroy a tower with siege weapons.
Yari sams are so misunderstood, even by their own unit description. They aren't a defensive unit. What good is a massive charge bonus on a defensive unit. These units are highly mobile foot soldiers that excel at flanking and closing with the enemy. They're like a hybrid between yari cav and for samurai. Use them like you would yari cav when you don't have warhorses yet. That said, I would rather have yari cav. But at least let them compete in the right category before you say they're terrible 😊
There is one benefit to them Mangonels. When they hit decorator buildings, they catch on fire. So if ya wanna be weird and and have the entire castle on fire before you charge in, there ya go. Have your epic backdrop.
There should've been some kind of campaign ability for the cannons and mangonels. There could've been an option where they could bombard a city that you're seiging, kind of like in FotS with ships.
You nailed the intro completely ;D! I love it! I do agree with that list. Only 2 nitpicks: - as if I remember correctly was one of people advocating for fire bomb throwers - you use them only in tandem with Yari wall because of meatshield unit thickness. You can micro it so the minimal range at which the bombs are dropping is on the other end of the Yari's that your men are holding. From what I remember in tests I made for them - this increases YA killing score tremendously as bombs don't kill but break cohesion of enemy units allowing yari wall to piece meal them. And you can use firebomb throwers to murder opposing yari walls. That is more of less known facts though - unit still belong to that list. - You gave us solid reason for gunpowder units and their placing. Worth noting is that at this point in campaign enemy will be able to field samurai units in masses which are better armored. Shooting arrows at Naginata's Samurai is not the best idea while matchlocks don't care for enemy armor. Matchlock ashigarus are bad and many guides are recommendering Matchlock Samurais as go-to unit (with their Rapid Reload and better stats they are quite fun to use). So not including them in this list was good call as it could spark some outrage. Great job overall :). Keep up the good work!
To be fair in the RANGED unit department anyway, Samurai are always better ashigaru. Better fire rates/accuracy for kills and should they run out of ammo they can if necessary fight in melee. Stranger still the portoguese Tarcos actually have worse melee defense (or the same i dont remember) as Samurai matchlocks.
Poor Yari Samurai. Imagine them having Yari Wall and recruiting them in a town with a blacksmith. They'd have 50% more armour than Yari Ashigaru and twice the morale. They'd be the number one in any best unit list.
@@daviddiaz5815Yeah but still aren’t as good because their spears are smaller then Yari Ashigaru which seems to be taken into account to how well their Yari wall works.
While I don't typically rely on Yari Samurai, they are also useful for flanking with their speed bonus. Encircling with infantry is less risky than cavalry if their morale isn't going to break in the charge.
@@aminyashed6824 They hit harder for sure. But they're more vulnerable when going out to flank. The only thing that can catch yari samurai are cavalry that they would love to engage. And then on the other extreme are no dachis. Even more fragile than katana samurai but also even more devastating. They're each useful in this role but bring their own advantages and disadvantages.
At one point I had a meme army of only fire casting mangonels. I had to bring around a second full stack to make sure they did not get killed, but they did make my first siege of Kyoto very cinematic. I even got the towering inferno achievement. 10/10, would do again.
Nice video, but for me, i put katana cav in No.5 instead of yari samurai, its even harder to make them use their full potential in campaign because the AI tend to spam spear units
@@hypervenom3141 Eh, I wouldn’t be so sure. If you find that being the case, katana samurai is useless given their melee stats don’t matter much against broken units and they also are slower. In my experience as the Takeda, all my cavalry got occasionally more then a hundred kills at a time when I made two groups of 2 Fire Cav and 1 Katana Cav and set them up on opposing flanks, with the Fire Cav setting the stage by killing any other cavalry. Combined with a defensive army meant to lure the enemy towards charging and splitting troops up. That combination of cav proved favorable in terms of killing enemy troops and causing havoc on the flanks and the backline.
@@kaijuslayer3334 if you mean katana cav, yeah they're not really good in campaign, if its for pvp i always bring katana cav to kill nodachi or katana sam spammer
I remember when I first played the tutorial for Shogun 2 the game showed me the Fire Projecting Mangonel and an enemy bow ashigaru unit. I had the FPM fire at the ashigaru as the game told me and got it to the fastest game speed because they just weren't hitting. After expanding all its ammunition the Mangonel had gotten ONE KILL. ONE ASHIGARU
In my experience the mangonel completely decimated that unit during the tutorial. So much that I thought it was scripted when I learned (The hard way) later on that they can't hit anything.
Mangonels with fully upgraded accuracy in campaign are great. I used them alongside European cannons with the Otomo and the mangonels were great for sieges. It meant my units lost barely any men.
@@melsonmacon2393 well I was hyped for more than using archers protected by a Yari wall but what I didn’t realize that I can’t move the artillery after start and forgot to put the Castel in range
This video does make a good case for why the European mangonels might actually not be the worst units in the game. They at least serve a purpose. Sure, it might be a purpose not worth serving, but serving a purpose not worth serving at least seems better than blowing up your own walls.
I'd argue you're overrating versatility and specialists can be good for something. For example, I would love a unit that is great at siege DEFENSE and only ok in field battles while in said field battles being equal to something much cheaper (meaning it isn't cost effective). In most total war games, it's nice to have a skeleton defense free up your real armies to go elsewhere. Sadly, Fire Bomb throwers and their propensity for friendly fire means they aren't good at siege defense after all.
If they had made mangonel's a siege built weapon, then fighting sieges might actually be doable. Setting them up like you set barriers/bamboo only on any infantry. Gives you a chance to bombard the enemy without causing issues due to extra units. Also destroyed walls should be easier to climb, like you should take only 1/3 the losses from falling.
That could be cool. When seiging out you got the ability to attack now, or construct weapons. Different techs and lengths of construction could get you ladders, mangonels, or other stuff.
Ah, the internet. You make one mistake and it crushes you...:p Been playing a bit more of Shogun 2. Finally decided to play every faction in every total war game. Should take a couple years, lol. Anyway, suggestions for top "x" if I may? - Top 5 provinces to capture - Top 5 dangerous enemies to have - Top 5 early game mistakes in your campaigns - Top 5 mid game mistakes in your campaigns Keep up the good content!
I build armies around mangonels and european cannons and are fun and challenging to use, of course I build the fletcher and hunting lodge to ensure maximum accuracy
Shimazu Heavy Gunner + European cannons on elevated terrain is fun. Trust me Donkey. Units start routing before the reach you. I still wouldn't recommend making that into a campaign however. There are easier avenues to raise your stress levels for free.
Changed my mind about yari samurai, playing as a takeda. I somehow always end in a battle with with fewer units than AI. I have to destroy flank first to even. Hummer and anvil is doing the job, but enemy units manage to come to my cavalry. Yari samurai with rapid advancement is the only unit that can intercept infantry and save my cavalry. Didn't try no-dachi, but I think low armor will not do good for them.
Just found this vid. Subben on the strength of it, even though I disagre re matchlock ashigaru! (Matchlocks in the front rank, bow ashigaru behind then, yari ashigaru behind them. 4 of each. 1 General, 2 light or yari cav to chase down fleeing units or enemy generals, and a couple of shock units of your your choice.) The gunners may only get a couple of volleys off before having to retire, but oh, do they mess with the enemies morale, so that when they've made it through the curtain of arrows and hit the spears, they're already wavering. Apart from that, I pretty much agree with all you've said.
Matchlock ashigaru? When you place them inside of the yari wall, you'll almost invincible to any kind of charges. Like placing yari ashigaru yari wall inside of the long yari ashigaru yari wall. Tho if you have access to imported yari Matchlock, otherwise don't worth the time to unlock them for fortifying yari wall.
@@BlackSabbath628 nope, you have to place matchlock a little bit front of the yari ashigaru when you give order for yari wall the spears will pass matchlock ashigaru without interfering one another.
Are we ever going to get legendary campaigns for Tsu or Nagaoka? I'd love to get an clan overview on them like your other videos. Although Tsu may be too punishing, having both the bad Iga start like the Hattori and gun unit spam against them...
Fire by Rank seems to be alright but in order to do that, you need to Micro them to shoot before the enemy runs in because they need to do the whole “Ready,Aim, Fire” stik first before shooting, FbR is at most, good for sustained fire which isn’t much. Overall, Ashigaru Matchlocks are not meant for a hyper offensive play style in a game that is capped at 200 turns.
i always like having just 1 siege unit in my comps. Turning every fight into a defensive one feels like a huge benefit, and I find just one can pepper and soften up the enemy frontline that its worth losing one unit, effectively trading my one unit to do a unit's worth of damage. But that's just my excuses. The real reason is because one campaign, in one fight, that Mangonel got the one-in-a-million shot. There's nothing better than seeing the volley fly into the enemy army and to hear to advisor shout "Their general has fallen! A cutting blow!"
I like to have 2 Yari samurai in a stack because i deploy them on the flanks to support my cav so that they win the cav fight easily. Rapid advance helps them to make contact with the enemy flank or rear quicker and Yari samurai have the best charge bonus outside of cavalry and nodachi, this is why i like to have vet them up. The last thing is they are good at killing generals and have higher morale than average so you can trust them to fight and move on outnumbered for a short while whereas Yari ash are slow with low morale before the late campaign. But it is true that objectively, they are one of the weakest units, it is just that they do have a niche use and do it well.
I view them as a Jack of all trades unit. Because look at everything around them, Yari ashigaru do their job just fine for half the price and thanks to yari wall and slightly dumb AI are almost invincible, meanwhile for the same price you can get Naginata Samarui which have the best armor of any unit in the game and are decent all round, and if that wasnt bad enough LIGHT cav and YARI cav are faster then them, Light cav will obviously get its ass kicked after the charge but they are the fastest unit in the game and slightly cheeper then Yari Samarui. But yes, Yari Samarui with their rapid advance have the highest charge of any SPEAR unit, highest anti cav bonus and better speed then any infantry. Jack of all trades, mast of none.
@@kaijuslayer3334They are, best ANTI CAV bonus in the game and they have an Rapid Advance that gives them more move speed (pretty sure they can't actually catch cav but it might be enough to intercept them) and charge. As an aside they might make good early game shock troops, you can also use Rapid Advance to get them out of combat as well. Not like the AI knows what YARI wall is anyway, its mostly the archers that are your biggest problem. Don't get me wrong Naginata are just better but given they have no abilities and have multipurpose weapon, they are more HOLD THE LINE/Defensive troops where Yari and Katana samurai are CHARGE/Aggressive troops. Pretty sure their stats reflect that as well, might be wrong.
@@jaywerner8415 Problem is Yari are weaker in melee then the Naginata. The melee stats for Naginata actually means they kill faster. So Yari aren’t exactly good at charging down enemy infantry in my experience. Once you start making your own samurai, I find it hard to find a reason why I should field yari samurai instead of katana and naginata. It might be useful in a army with very minimal cavalry to help guard flanks against enemy cav. But I typically always run enough cavalry to deal with the enemy’s.
@@kaijuslayer3334 Yeah that's true, id have to check but i swear Yari have more melee defense then Naginatas, however Naginatas have more melee attack, hence they kill faster. Yeah if you plan on using Cav be it LIGHT (Yari samurai never gonna catch them) or YARI (maybe they can catch other cavalry?) cavalry Yari samurai just kinda fade from your roster.
I will say in multiplayer Yari Samurai is great. Use Rapid advance to claim and hold a strategic spot ( or push off enemy cav) and then bring the rest of your army to the spot.
I am/was a newbie in shogun 2 but your videos basically teached me a lot about the game, thank you for that. Now I´m still far away from bein good (gettin fucked up at a normal campagne), and have a view more questions. Since I am playing with the Satsuma being a noob friendly clan, I have the feeling that I always fail at the research in one of the two directions. Its always me sitting next to way more and way further experienced enemy units or either messin up my economy resulting in having the first case. Any hints for the mid/late game? Thank you very much :)
i dont know if you already said something about this but what is with naginata samurai i know theres not much but at last i want a oppinion about them bcs i really love and always recruit a whole bunch (monk and samurai of course)
Yari samurai are not a defensive unit. They are shock infantry. You are meant to charge with them using the ability in enemy weakspot, break the enemy and repeat.
How do you all feel about fighting offensive sieges, by cheesing the enemy AI into never moving their ranged units, and then shooting up the other units with your own archers, without retalliation?
I know much about super high difficulties as I play on normal but on those difficulties mangonels while in no way top of the crop do seem to slap hard. I had 1 mangonel unit wipe out like 2-3 units in a hand full of shots. Dont know if I just got lucky or what but they seem to be ok.
Firebomb thrower should have at least been number 2, given it causes collateral damage to your own units and will be worse than matchlocks in defensive sieges. Matchlocks also are a symptom of you playing legendary since that messes up unit balance and especially hurts units that rely on morale shock. Plus playing cheese mode of legendary where your expected to exploit weaknesses in the system instead of play the game normally just skews everything.
You are very welcome too. Honestly, this should be a top 4 worst units, Yari Samurai are way more useful than anything else on this list. Maybe I should've even put Matchlock Samurai on #5, but I felt like that would be overkill with it being the exact same reasons and #4. That said, could always do it in the ultimate definitive edition 3 years from now! :D
I don’t know what version of shogun 2 you’re playing but every time I pit one unit of Yari Samurai against a yari wall Ashigaru the Samurai win every time.
@@Joe_Friday That's like the worst of the new games. Personally, I'd recommend Rome 2 or 3K. Attila is like Rome 2, but if you play a faction which doesn't play like a traditional TW faction i.e. start with a few settlements and build an empire, it's not that fun. What I mean is if you play a Roman faction, you're stuck in some sort of survival mode that's more tedious than fun, or a nomadic faction which just outflanks the enemy with cavalry. The funner factions are those like Yemen which basically play like a normal R2 campaign. Attila also has kickass DLC, the Charlemagne DLC has some of those Anglo Saxon kingdoms. Also, if you weren't already interested in Warhammer it might still interest you, most of the fanbase, including those who don't like fantasy, seem to think it's the best in the series, though I personally disagree. I liked WH40k, but I just couldn't get into TW Warhammer personally.
@@TheDirtysouthfan The problem is finding a game in a time period that interests me. Warhammer is out. For some reason I've never been into Chinese history. I do like Japanese a bit but that's about as far oriental as I go. I tend to enjoy Europe the most.
@@Joe_Friday I know that feeling. I didn't find medieval Japan that interesting either, but I loved Shogun 2. From there I became more interested in Japanese history. In fact, I've enjoyed every TW to some extent other than Warhammer.
@@TheDirtysouthfan You're right. Watching a movie/show, reading a book, playing a game about a particular time period can spark one's interest in said time period.
Mangonels are inaccurate but when theres a really large army inside a small wooden fort, THEN it possibly reliable. Ive dont that before, destroyed a whole fort full of christian rebels.
Not really related to this video but I'm a viewer from the 3K let's play and I was wondering by which let's play I should start in order to get a good understanding of Shogun 2
My original Shimazu campaign is one where I do the most explaining, but it's also several years old so my skills and knowledge of game mechanics have vastly improved since then. I would recommend watching that first and then once you understand the mechanics, you could choose a more recent campaign. Here's a link to the Shimazu campaign: th-cam.com/video/RuWmGjGITm0/w-d-xo.html
As I see it you should start with a faction that interests you and is not a "challenge game" such as siege only or archers only etc. Me myself especially enjoyed the Otomo let's play :) I still think Shogun 2 is in many ways superior to 3K so I highly recommend you give this game a try!
Let's be honest, if you're doing a matchlock run you're going to want either Shimazu or Otomo, both of which have excellent unique matchlock units. Why get matchlock sam when you can get Portuguese gunners or shimazu heavy gunners instead?
On the bright side that DLC brings you some good to OP units as Mounted Gunners, Shimazu Heavy Gunners or Takeda Heavy Cavalry. So it is still better than Beast of War DLC for Rome 2 TW...
Dunno if you'll ever see this comment, but I wonder what would happen if some of these "worst units" would be integrated into "hybrid units" like in Three Kingdoms with some of their ranged and melee units (i.e. half and half), IF they ever decide to make a Shogun 3? I'm thinking specifically about the Teppo (Musket) units, particularly Ashigaru. Maybe, have the Teppo units be an option in a unit of Yari Ashigaru, once they're a high enough level (or you have the tech and/or trade connections)? Maybe have an icon to have them advance to the front to let off volleys, but then withdraw quickly as you put the formation into Yari wall (With Yari wall in effect even as a couple of Musketeers straggle and get cut down by advancing enemies)? The drawback may be that roughly 1/4 or 1/5 (30-40 of a unit of 200) of normally Yari Ashigaru would be musketeers? Or perhaps, the unit of 200 turns into 230-240, but the upgrade requests a slight fee, and maybe a slight (i.e. not exorbitant) increase in upkeep?
Yeah, I tried using matchlock ashigaru and they always under perform unless they are defending forts. In a field battle they are rubbish, as they don't break enemy melee units fast enough, they get out ranged and out damaged by bow units, and you have to go pretty deep into the tech tree to get them. They were overall a big disappointment.
Really a massive letdown that matchlocks are so terrible in Shogun 2, when in real life they were the backbone of armies during the late Sengoku Jidai. When Hideyoshi invaded Korea, at least a third of his troops had guns.
they arnt though, escpecally in siege defense with the bonuses from being on walls, they will SLAUGHTER any unit reguardless of its armor (pretty sure the bullets ignore armor, hence the Date bulletproof samurai) the trick is keeping them alive and firing so they can deal that damage. their is also a nice guide on steam that explains a few things.
@@jaywerner8415 That's not the real problem though, the real problem is that anyone who plays on Legendary difficulty like Donkey usually not screwing around waiting to unlock matchlock, which at the minimum requires like 100 turns to get. They usually conquered half of the Japan and on their way to Domination Victory at that point, if not already beat the campaign, leaving little room for matchlock to come into play.
@@machaiping True, it does take a while to unlock, unless you grab up the paper resources and build the research chain, makes a big difference. But ya matchlocks are definitely LATE game relatively speaking.
@@jaywerner8415 There're only 5 research specialty buildings in the game scattered around the map, and one of them is Kyoto whose occupation triggers Realm Divide. So in practice they're not making much difference, at most shaving like a dozen turns out of 100s. In my recent hard mode domination campaign, the Realm Divide was shoved down my throat by "great victory" from beating backstabbing AI doomstack coming my way while I was peacefully building up, which forced me to beat the entire map before gunpowder units become available. But uselessness of gunpowder units is also present in Medieval 2 as well. Because in that game it was hard-coded to appear on turn 120 or so with no way to accelerate the process, but consider that most people will happily conquer the whole campaign map in 50 turns on the highest difficulty (or do so they don't have to deal with friggin Mongols)... yeah, same problem, too late to make a difference.
@@machaiping I mean each of those research specialties gives you what 30% maxed? for BOTH trees, plus that general skill for military tech and religious buildings and monks for civil tech. having been playing again recently it only takes like 20-40 ish turns for a straight shot to gunpowder mastery (i think its a little over 30 turns to go straight for it, so realistically without any research buffs it probably takes 50-60 turns or so for someone to go for it.).
Ostensibly, it is supposed to work like Fire By Rank in Empire: Where three ranks of a unit fire one after the other to ensure a faster overall rate of fire. However... It doesn't properly work in Shogun 2: for some reason it takes the ashigaru forever to open fire and begin their cycle, so usually the unit actually gets engaged in melee by their target before they can even finish their first cycle.
@@SerLagsalot Thats because as one guide on steam told me, fire by rank makes matchlocks more deadly then they already are, ya know those old war movies where the captain is always shouting "READY! STEADY! AIM! FIRE!" thats basically what that is. i cant recall if this gives them more MORAL shock or if by aiming they actually get more kills per volley.
I have to stress a major misconception about Shogun Total War that even veteran players make. Do not depend on balanced stacks. Specialized stacks are more effective. Especially cavalry only stacks as reinforcements.
Hello Mr.Smartdonkey. I am a big fan of your. I have a question. I saw you use yari samurai a lot in your shimazu campaign but with a highly upgraded armor. So, it is good to use them if you have high upgrade.
Not really, that was just one of my first campaigns, from all the way back in 2014 when I didn't realize yet that they're not very good compared to other units.
Maybe it's because I just suck, but I don't get the "Never fight sieges" mentality. Who has a half dozen turns to just tie up their army and sit around? I usually can't afford that. Granted again I suck, and I only started playing the game properly a week or so ago, but I've only got one or two armies, three at best late game, and I need them doing things, not sitting around. Like fighting off the 3 other enemy armies which are always marching into my domain.
Not to mention most of the time due to AI build plan you will (at least at first... then again in fall of the samarui they only seem to upgrade their capitals) find lots of unupgraded forts so you can just murder the Samurai retainers with archers and be done in a few mins, no damage to the fort.
The European cannons have one other redeeming factor. They are THE BEST anti cavalry unit in the game. To be fair though I only use them as the Otomo and even then only one unit of cannons per army
If you use more than one fire rocket unit maybe but I have seen European cannons tear a general unit apart from 40 to 14 in a single wave (yes recruited in Buzen with the best accuracy possible otherwise they will indeed not hit the broadside of a barn) the cannon ball forces soldiers to fall on the ground and while infantry gets back up cavalry stays down
Have you seen what fire rockets do the cavalry? one word, COOKED! and while they lack the range of cannons they are just as if not more so deadly. i can only assume its the rockets expulsion that makes it so deadly vs horsemen.
The explosion might make the wave more deadly but they don't have the range or the reload to deal with more than a single cavalry unit before the cavalry gets in melee with something. Cannons however do have the range to deal with most if not all the cavalry the AI tends to bring into battle
G'day MrSmartDonkey, I'm sure you're aware but, it's worth the mention. There's a mod to give yari samurai the yari wall ability. I know you don't use many mods (certainly not gameplay ones) but, I feel this is a worthwhile one as it makes yari sam actually worthwhile. They might actually make a top 10 list then :P
In my experience yari samurai are not that bad. Nahinata samurai on the other hand are more expensive but tend to cause less damage and die faster... maybe it was my experience!
Me before watching him: wow yari samurai is cool! He is strong and can destroy cavaleries, wow those guys with guns are cool! After watching him: yarimazing
How do you make it so there's no general in custom battles. Please I beg of you. I have not found a mod for this. I've asked so many people who seem to not be using generals and custom battles. I beg. Please answer my question
Basically you have to add him first, then you can add all the other units and then you just double click the general in your army list again and he’ll leave. Essentially this means you can only have a max of 19 or 39 units per side in custom battles if you don’t include the general, but that’s how you do it.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Thank you, I am forever in your debt and forever grateful for your actions and words kind sir, to repay only a small portion of this debt I will subscribe to you channel 🙏
Donkey: "European cannons are second worst units."
Pilps: "Not to me."
🍷🗿
From the worthless Mangonels of Shogun 2 to the laser targeted Ballistas of Rome 2. One sometimes wonders if CA understands the concept of balancing
Fun fact - Mangonels and Cannons at release were much more accurate (to the point that you could snipe generals with them). Scrubs in multiplayer complained that's those stationary units were overpowered at thus we arrived at their current nerfed version ;DDDD. Sometimes you gotta wonder what is going through mind of average TW player when making complaint.
@@Sanvone tell me about it. CA kind of overreacts to that stuff. Odrysian Kingdom from Rome 2 was like that. Came out way OP, then got nerfed to the point where it became impossible to win with them
@@darkjedi55 I remember Odrysians - weren't their shortcoming being vulnerable to projectiles? I mostly remember that people were furious that their melee rushes were best quality wise. Thing is that those mangonels were as good as stationary artillery in R2 from what I remember. But people couldn't be bothered to walk around... As TW are mostly comfort games and many strategy gamers just stick to one gameplan and refuse to adapt I think that it can only become worse and worse. I still remember one of my first MP matches in which as Athens I skirmished down Roman player and had to listen to his outburst and demands of me conceding game asme shooting his infantry with Cretan Archers was unfair/bs tactic and it was matchmaking without any rules.
@@Sanvone reminds me of my multiplayer days in M&B W Napoleonic Wars, lots of the big guild line battles had lots of clever player and irl historical tactics banned: because the guild leaders and server mods couldn't stand losing. So everything apart from standing in a 1 man infantry line was and still is completely banned. Artillery wasn't allowed to position, and cavalry was either forced to dismount or banned outright. Being in a cavalry guild so fun /s
*Cackles loudly in FOTS cannons which behave more like WW1 Artillery*
Shogun 2: You call throwing dynamite a martial art?
Hojo: Hey, as long as it works.
ironically their is a tech that makes them more accurate as well. i want to say its attack by fire but i dont remember. its the one before gunpower mastery.
Me: Should I tell him Dynamite is nitroglycerin and not Black Power? Black Power requires knowledge and training like a Martial Arts so be safe
You are just not using mangonels correctly. You need 4 doomstacks and then you can finally win a single siege by using all four stack and telling them to aim for the middle of the city. With the amazing accuracy that they have they will most likley nuke the town and at least one of your generals.
I hope I just explained you how to get gud with mangonels in Shogun 2.
Next time I will explain how to play european cannons. (hint: 6 stacks).
A bit offtopic: I find it funny how much siege weapons can vary in Total War games. In Attila you can annihilate cavalry units while in Shogun 2 you can not even destroy a tower with siege weapons.
Cannons and mangonels can't be used as reinforcement, so you won't be able to field more than 1 stack of them in the campaign :>
It's forgotten ancient technology of siege equipment optics. And lack of ballistics specialists in labor market.
Yea Rome 2 and Attila siege engine have aim bot
@@jeffthemercenary they are basically guided missiles 😂
Ik
Yari sams are so misunderstood, even by their own unit description. They aren't a defensive unit. What good is a massive charge bonus on a defensive unit. These units are highly mobile foot soldiers that excel at flanking and closing with the enemy. They're like a hybrid between yari cav and for samurai. Use them like you would yari cav when you don't have warhorses yet. That said, I would rather have yari cav. But at least let them compete in the right category before you say they're terrible 😊
they don’t use them properly and just throw them on the frontline
There is one benefit to them Mangonels. When they hit decorator buildings, they catch on fire. So if ya wanna be weird and and have the entire castle on fire before you charge in, there ya go. Have your epic backdrop.
"I see you in another 3 years for an update on this list" it's about time mister donkey!
There should've been some kind of campaign ability for the cannons and mangonels. There could've been an option where they could bombard a city that you're seiging, kind of like in FotS with ships.
You nailed the intro completely ;D! I love it!
I do agree with that list.
Only 2 nitpicks:
- as if I remember correctly was one of people advocating for fire bomb throwers - you use them only in tandem with Yari wall because of meatshield unit thickness. You can micro it so the minimal range at which the bombs are dropping is on the other end of the Yari's that your men are holding. From what I remember in tests I made for them - this increases YA killing score tremendously as bombs don't kill but break cohesion of enemy units allowing yari wall to piece meal them. And you can use firebomb throwers to murder opposing yari walls. That is more of less known facts though - unit still belong to that list.
- You gave us solid reason for gunpowder units and their placing. Worth noting is that at this point in campaign enemy will be able to field samurai units in masses which are better armored. Shooting arrows at Naginata's Samurai is not the best idea while matchlocks don't care for enemy armor. Matchlock ashigarus are bad and many guides are recommendering Matchlock Samurais as go-to unit (with their Rapid Reload and better stats they are quite fun to use). So not including them in this list was good call as it could spark some outrage.
Great job overall :). Keep up the good work!
To be fair in the RANGED unit department anyway, Samurai are always better ashigaru. Better fire rates/accuracy for kills and should they run out of ammo they can if necessary fight in melee. Stranger still the portoguese Tarcos actually have worse melee defense (or the same i dont remember) as Samurai matchlocks.
Lmao, Imagine me cringing when I hear my General and Diamyo whining about not having Artillery in their cutscenes.
Imported matchlocks + light cav = impregnable castle.
Poor Yari Samurai.
Imagine them having Yari Wall and recruiting them in a town with a blacksmith.
They'd have 50% more armour than Yari Ashigaru and twice the morale. They'd be the number one in any best unit list.
There's a mod for that
@@daviddiaz5815Yeah but still aren’t as good because their spears are smaller then Yari Ashigaru which seems to be taken into account to how well their Yari wall works.
While I don't typically rely on Yari Samurai, they are also useful for flanking with their speed bonus. Encircling with infantry is less risky than cavalry if their morale isn't going to break in the charge.
im 3 years late but even though there slower i find katana samurai way more effective at flanking infantry and in some cases devastating
@@aminyashed6824 They hit harder for sure. But they're more vulnerable when going out to flank. The only thing that can catch yari samurai are cavalry that they would love to engage. And then on the other extreme are no dachis. Even more fragile than katana samurai but also even more devastating. They're each useful in this role but bring their own advantages and disadvantages.
hi:3
#4 matchlock ashigaru
Oda nobunaga : hold my sake
Always enjoying your Shogun 2 lists!
Nagaoka faction overview please ^^
At one point I had a meme army of only fire casting mangonels. I had to bring around a second full stack to make sure they did not get killed, but they did make my first siege of Kyoto very cinematic. I even got the towering inferno achievement. 10/10, would do again.
Nice video, but for me, i put katana cav in No.5 instead of yari samurai, its even harder to make them use their full potential in campaign because the AI tend to spam spear units
I always found it handy to run them in a kind of 2:1 ratio with Yari Cavalry. They both cover each other’s weaknesses well.
@@kaijuslayer3334 i do that for pvp, but for campaign cav is only useful to kill routers
@@hypervenom3141 Eh, I wouldn’t be so sure. If you find that being the case, katana samurai is useless given their melee stats don’t matter much against broken units and they also are slower.
In my experience as the Takeda, all my cavalry got occasionally more then a hundred kills at a time when I made two groups of 2 Fire Cav and 1 Katana Cav and set them up on opposing flanks, with the Fire Cav setting the stage by killing any other cavalry. Combined with a defensive army meant to lure the enemy towards charging and splitting troops up. That combination of cav proved favorable in terms of killing enemy troops and causing havoc on the flanks and the backline.
@@kaijuslayer3334 how katana samurai is useless? they are the main killer in majority of people army
@@kaijuslayer3334 if you mean katana cav, yeah they're not really good in campaign, if its for pvp i always bring katana cav to kill nodachi or katana sam spammer
I remember when I first played the tutorial for Shogun 2 the game showed me the Fire Projecting Mangonel and an enemy bow ashigaru unit. I had the FPM fire at the ashigaru as the game told me and got it to the fastest game speed because they just weren't hitting.
After expanding all its ammunition the Mangonel had gotten ONE KILL. ONE ASHIGARU
In my experience the mangonel completely decimated that unit during the tutorial. So much that I thought it was scripted when I learned (The hard way) later on that they can't hit anything.
"I'll see you in another three years to update this list"
WELL, WE'RE WAITING
Mangonels with fully upgraded accuracy in campaign are great. I used them alongside European cannons with the Otomo and the mangonels were great for sieges. It meant my units lost barely any men.
7:39 Nani moments
Yoshikage Kira was among them
"Why even fight siege battles?" Uh because it's fun?
@@jpetras16 yeah that makes sense. I tend to start the siege battle right away, I've never tried to "starve out" a castle.
@@jpetras16 I'll keep that in mind
To get the settlement faster
Yeah, sieges in Shogun 2 are pretty fun, unlike in Warhammer where they're pure garbage.
@@melsonmacon2393 well I was hyped for more than using archers protected by a Yari wall but what I didn’t realize that I can’t move the artillery after start and forgot to put the Castel in range
This video does make a good case for why the European mangonels might actually not be the worst units in the game. They at least serve a purpose. Sure, it might be a purpose not worth serving, but serving a purpose not worth serving at least seems better than blowing up your own walls.
12 Turns a Year mod is great for Shogun 2. I'm on like, turn 312 for an Ikko Ikki campaign and its only 1568.
I'd argue you're overrating versatility and specialists can be good for something. For example, I would love a unit that is great at siege DEFENSE and only ok in field battles while in said field battles being equal to something much cheaper (meaning it isn't cost effective). In most total war games, it's nice to have a skeleton defense free up your real armies to go elsewhere. Sadly, Fire Bomb throwers and their propensity for friendly fire means they aren't good at siege defense after all.
Its been 3 years, wheres the update?!
0:37 I happened to press fullscreen at this exact moment and it messed with me so hard.
3:21 stamp is a LIE ITS A BIG LIE like CAKE IN PORTAL SERIES
Who the fuck makes a "The cake is a lie" joke 12 to 13 years after the damned game came out!
If they had made mangonel's a siege built weapon, then fighting sieges might actually be doable. Setting them up like you set barriers/bamboo only on any infantry. Gives you a chance to bombard the enemy without causing issues due to extra units. Also destroyed walls should be easier to climb, like you should take only 1/3 the losses from falling.
That could be cool.
When seiging out you got the ability to attack now, or construct weapons.
Different techs and lengths of construction could get you ladders, mangonels, or other stuff.
Ah, the internet. You make one mistake and it crushes you...:p
Been playing a bit more of Shogun 2. Finally decided to play every faction in every total war game. Should take a couple years, lol.
Anyway, suggestions for top "x" if I may?
- Top 5 provinces to capture
- Top 5 dangerous enemies to have
- Top 5 early game mistakes in your campaigns
- Top 5 mid game mistakes in your campaigns
Keep up the good content!
I build armies around mangonels and european cannons and are fun and challenging to use, of course I build the fletcher and hunting lodge to ensure maximum accuracy
I’m sure they are, but fun does not equal effective.
Shimazu Heavy Gunner + European cannons on elevated terrain is fun. Trust me Donkey.
Units start routing before the reach you. I still wouldn't recommend making that into a campaign however. There are easier avenues to raise your stress levels for free.
Nobody:
People who uses Yari Samurai with full attack upgrades:
*Small Angery Noises with 14 Melee Attack and 8 Melee Defense*
Yari Samurai: Say literally anything
Oda Long Yari Ashigaru: *laughs uncontrollably*
Nobody:
MrSmartDonkey: soo woopdy fucking do on that
Naginata eith Full upgrade is best unit
european mangonels are surely more accurate...
What about fire projecting cannons?
Fire projecting mongolians are better.
Changed my mind about yari samurai, playing as a takeda. I somehow always end in a battle with with fewer units than AI. I have to destroy flank first to even. Hummer and anvil is doing the job, but enemy units manage to come to my cavalry. Yari samurai with rapid advancement is the only unit that can intercept infantry and save my cavalry. Didn't try no-dachi, but I think low armor will not do good for them.
9:46 "European Mangonels"
He says that when refering to both
there's finally a mod that remove the -50 debuff for the fire projectile mangonels, with 20 effective precision they are decent
Just found this vid. Subben on the strength of it, even though I disagre re matchlock ashigaru! (Matchlocks in the front rank, bow ashigaru behind then, yari ashigaru behind them. 4 of each. 1 General, 2 light or yari cav to chase down fleeing units or enemy generals, and a couple of shock units of your your choice.) The gunners may only get a couple of volleys off before having to retire, but oh, do they mess with the enemies morale, so that when they've made it through the curtain of arrows and hit the spears, they're already wavering. Apart from that, I pretty much agree with all you've said.
Seeing those kisho-ninja all blow themselves up like complete idiots had me promptly DYING laughing 😂
This vid is just you moving the goalpost so you can still end up being correct
Matchlock ashigaru? When you place them inside of the yari wall, you'll almost invincible to any kind of charges.
Like placing yari ashigaru yari wall inside of the long yari ashigaru yari wall.
Tho if you have access to imported yari Matchlock, otherwise don't worth the time to unlock them for fortifying yari wall.
How do you do that without blocking line of fire? Do you have to spread them out thin?
@@BlackSabbath628 nope, you have to place matchlock a little bit front of the yari ashigaru when you give order for yari wall the spears will pass matchlock ashigaru without interfering one another.
@@joedollarbiden9823 or flank with matchlocks after melee lines engage.
YEAH!!!! But what about the Top Naginata Units .... We are still waiting ........ Please man
2 naginata sam. 1 naginata monks. Or otherwise, depends how much u value armor
Are we ever going to get legendary campaigns for Tsu or Nagaoka? I'd love to get an clan overview on them like your other videos. Although Tsu may be too punishing, having both the bad Iga start like the Hattori and gun unit spam against them...
"Spend most of your days UHHHing and DUUUHHing" Thenk u dankey I can rlate
Gordon Ramseru: "fire rockets are good you fucking donkey"
7:55 lol almost chocked myself with tea
If you know how to use, then matchlock ashigaru and yari samurai could do many useful things. And ... the mangonels and canons still ... real shit.
Fire by Rank seems to be alright but in order to do that, you need to Micro them to shoot before the enemy runs in because they need to do the whole “Ready,Aim, Fire” stik first before shooting, FbR is at most, good for sustained fire which isn’t much.
Overall, Ashigaru Matchlocks are not meant for a hyper offensive play style in a game that is capped at 200 turns.
Its great to see this game still getting attentsion
I remember that I got real lucky at times with mangonels (which I always had 2 of) by using them to snipe generals.
I had an OK success rate
i always like having just 1 siege unit in my comps. Turning every fight into a defensive one feels like a huge benefit, and I find just one can pepper and soften up the enemy frontline that its worth losing one unit, effectively trading my one unit to do a unit's worth of damage. But that's just my excuses. The real reason is because one campaign, in one fight, that Mangonel got the one-in-a-million shot. There's nothing better than seeing the volley fly into the enemy army and to hear to advisor shout "Their general has fallen! A cutting blow!"
I like to have 2 Yari samurai in a stack because i deploy them on the flanks to support my cav so that they win the cav fight easily. Rapid advance helps them to make contact with the enemy flank or rear quicker and Yari samurai have the best charge bonus outside of cavalry and nodachi, this is why i like to have vet them up. The last thing is they are good at killing generals and have higher morale than average so you can trust them to fight and move on outnumbered for a short while whereas Yari ash are slow with low morale before the late campaign. But it is true that objectively, they are one of the weakest units, it is just that they do have a niche use and do it well.
I view them as a Jack of all trades unit. Because look at everything around them, Yari ashigaru do their job just fine for half the price and thanks to yari wall and slightly dumb AI are almost invincible, meanwhile for the same price you can get Naginata Samarui which have the best armor of any unit in the game and are decent all round, and if that wasnt bad enough LIGHT cav and YARI cav are faster then them, Light cav will obviously get its ass kicked after the charge but they are the fastest unit in the game and slightly cheeper then Yari Samarui.
But yes, Yari Samarui with their rapid advance have the highest charge of any SPEAR unit, highest anti cav bonus and better speed then any infantry. Jack of all trades, mast of none.
@@jaywerner8415 Naginata samurai are more well rounded then Yari samurai. To me, the Yari samurai have always been specialized cavalry destroyers.
@@kaijuslayer3334They are, best ANTI CAV bonus in the game and they have an Rapid Advance that gives them more move speed (pretty sure they can't actually catch cav but it might be enough to intercept them) and charge.
As an aside they might make good early game shock troops, you can also use Rapid Advance to get them out of combat as well. Not like the AI knows what YARI wall is anyway, its mostly the archers that are your biggest problem.
Don't get me wrong Naginata are just better but given they have no abilities and have multipurpose weapon, they are more HOLD THE LINE/Defensive troops where Yari and Katana samurai are CHARGE/Aggressive troops.
Pretty sure their stats reflect that as well, might be wrong.
@@jaywerner8415 Problem is Yari are weaker in melee then the Naginata. The melee stats for Naginata actually means they kill faster. So Yari aren’t exactly good at charging down enemy infantry in my experience. Once you start making your own samurai, I find it hard to find a reason why I should field yari samurai instead of katana and naginata. It might be useful in a army with very minimal cavalry to help guard flanks against enemy cav. But I typically always run enough cavalry to deal with the enemy’s.
@@kaijuslayer3334 Yeah that's true, id have to check but i swear Yari have more melee defense then Naginatas, however Naginatas have more melee attack, hence they kill faster.
Yeah if you plan on using Cav be it LIGHT (Yari samurai never gonna catch them) or YARI (maybe they can catch other cavalry?) cavalry Yari samurai just kinda fade from your roster.
I will say in multiplayer Yari Samurai is great. Use Rapid advance to claim and hold a strategic spot ( or push off enemy cav) and then bring the rest of your army to the spot.
I am/was a newbie in shogun 2 but your videos basically teached me a lot about the game, thank you for that. Now I´m still far away from bein good (gettin fucked up at a normal campagne), and have a view more questions. Since I am playing with the Satsuma being a noob friendly clan, I have the feeling that I always fail at the research in one of the two directions. Its always me sitting next to way more and way further experienced enemy units or either messin up my economy resulting in having the first case. Any hints for the mid/late game?
Thank you very much :)
thats why I use mods to make matchlocks and cannons/mangonels useful, mods make everything better
i dont know if you already said something about this but what is with naginata samurai i know theres not much but at last i want a oppinion about them bcs i really love and always recruit a whole bunch (monk and samurai of course)
You also get cannon boats withe the cannon research, which idk if they're good, but I like them.
How about a Top 5 Three Kingdoms units? without DLC and Faction specific units
There’s still a couple of units I haven’t used enough to form a proper opinion, but I will.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Good. Looking forward to it. I'm sure the trebuchet will be high on your list
still waiting for the day he realises katana cav is the supreme anti-cav cav
Yari samurai are not a defensive unit. They are shock infantry. You are meant to charge with them using the ability in enemy weakspot, break the enemy and repeat.
When you are done with that "Monk Only Campaign", you need to do a "Yari Samurai Only" campaign.
I dare you ;)
He already did
I think he did one already? th-cam.com/video/26prOKCVRKk/w-d-xo.html
Yup, as the others said, been there, done that.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Fire-projecting mangonels only when?
I’ve done Siege Only already, that’s enough mangonel use for me.
How do you all feel about fighting offensive sieges, by cheesing the enemy AI into never moving their ranged units, and then shooting up the other units with your own archers, without retalliation?
I know much about super high difficulties as I play on normal but on those difficulties mangonels while in no way top of the crop do seem to slap hard. I had 1 mangonel unit wipe out like 2-3 units in a hand full of shots. Dont know if I just got lucky or what but they seem to be ok.
Firebomb thrower should have at least been number 2, given it causes collateral damage to your own units and will be worse than matchlocks in defensive sieges. Matchlocks also are a symptom of you playing legendary since that messes up unit balance and especially hurts units that rely on morale shock. Plus playing cheese mode of legendary where your expected to exploit weaknesses in the system instead of play the game normally just skews everything.
i will use yari samurai no matter what you tell me
You are very welcome too. Honestly, this should be a top 4 worst units, Yari Samurai are way more useful than anything else on this list. Maybe I should've even put Matchlock Samurai on #5, but I felt like that would be overkill with it being the exact same reasons and #4. That said, could always do it in the ultimate definitive edition 3 years from now! :D
Bruh you are like flat earther. Prove one hes wrong, he'll stick to his point bcs reasons...
But you could have a group of literally the best, cheapest, most efficient unit in the game: Yari Ashigaru.
I don’t know what version of shogun 2 you’re playing but every time I pit one unit of Yari Samurai against a yari wall Ashigaru the Samurai win every time.
Its because he plays Legendary as Very Hard Battle Mode screws up unit balance.
Siege battles are good.. in attila, seeing huns die left and right while you stay on a crappy gate is quite a good sight.
I've yet to play any Total War games since Shogun 2. I was thinking of playing Thrones of Britannia. The Last Kingdom show had sparked my interest.
@@Joe_Friday That's like the worst of the new games. Personally, I'd recommend Rome 2 or 3K. Attila is like Rome 2, but if you play a faction which doesn't play like a traditional TW faction i.e. start with a few settlements and build an empire, it's not that fun. What I mean is if you play a Roman faction, you're stuck in some sort of survival mode that's more tedious than fun, or a nomadic faction which just outflanks the enemy with cavalry. The funner factions are those like Yemen which basically play like a normal R2 campaign. Attila also has kickass DLC, the Charlemagne DLC has some of those Anglo Saxon kingdoms. Also, if you weren't already interested in Warhammer it might still interest you, most of the fanbase, including those who don't like fantasy, seem to think it's the best in the series, though I personally disagree. I liked WH40k, but I just couldn't get into TW Warhammer personally.
@@TheDirtysouthfan The problem is finding a game in a time period that interests me. Warhammer is out. For some reason I've never been into Chinese history. I do like Japanese a bit but that's about as far oriental as I go. I tend to enjoy Europe the most.
@@Joe_Friday I know that feeling. I didn't find medieval Japan that interesting either, but I loved Shogun 2. From there I became more interested in Japanese history. In fact, I've enjoyed every TW to some extent other than Warhammer.
@@TheDirtysouthfan You're right. Watching a movie/show, reading a book, playing a game about a particular time period can spark one's interest in said time period.
Mangonels are inaccurate but when theres a really large army inside a small wooden fort, THEN it possibly reliable. Ive dont that before, destroyed a whole fort full of christian rebels.
BURN THE HERETICS! LOL, not to mention the mangonels unlike cannons can fire OUT of a for when defending.
Not really related to this video but I'm a viewer from the 3K let's play and I was wondering by which let's play I should start in order to get a good understanding of Shogun 2
My original Shimazu campaign is one where I do the most explaining, but it's also several years old so my skills and knowledge of game mechanics have vastly improved since then. I would recommend watching that first and then once you understand the mechanics, you could choose a more recent campaign. Here's a link to the Shimazu campaign: th-cam.com/video/RuWmGjGITm0/w-d-xo.html
As I see it you should start with a faction that interests you and is not a "challenge game" such as siege only or archers only etc. Me myself especially enjoyed the Otomo let's play :)
I still think Shogun 2 is in many ways superior to 3K so I highly recommend you give this game a try!
I'm quite fond of my matchlock units though.
Yes but matchlock Samurai are the unit to use
Let's be honest, if you're doing a matchlock run you're going to want either Shimazu or Otomo, both of which have excellent unique matchlock units. Why get matchlock sam when you can get Portuguese gunners or shimazu heavy gunners instead?
So basically, non-dlc siege units suck besides fire rockets
The DLC ones suck too, Hojo Hand Mortars, eewwwww!
Yes. one of biggest ripoffs
On the bright side that DLC brings you some good to OP units as Mounted Gunners, Shimazu Heavy Gunners or Takeda Heavy Cavalry. So it is still better than Beast of War DLC for Rome 2 TW...
@@demomanchaos if only they improve the hand mortar damage
@@demomanchaos With accuracy so bad they make fire bombers look like snipers. but yes they are the only moveable artillery besides fire rockets.
Dunno if you'll ever see this comment, but I wonder what would happen if some of these "worst units" would be integrated into "hybrid units" like in Three Kingdoms with some of their ranged and melee units (i.e. half and half), IF they ever decide to make a Shogun 3? I'm thinking specifically about the Teppo (Musket) units, particularly Ashigaru.
Maybe, have the Teppo units be an option in a unit of Yari Ashigaru, once they're a high enough level (or you have the tech and/or trade connections)? Maybe have an icon to have them advance to the front to let off volleys, but then withdraw quickly as you put the formation into Yari wall (With Yari wall in effect even as a couple of Musketeers straggle and get cut down by advancing enemies)? The drawback may be that roughly 1/4 or 1/5 (30-40 of a unit of 200) of normally Yari Ashigaru would be musketeers? Or perhaps, the unit of 200 turns into 230-240, but the upgrade requests a slight fee, and maybe a slight (i.e. not exorbitant) increase in upkeep?
Yeah, I tried using matchlock ashigaru and they always under perform unless they are defending forts. In a field battle they are rubbish, as they don't break enemy melee units fast enough, they get out ranged and out damaged by bow units, and you have to go pretty deep into the tech tree to get them.
They were overall a big disappointment.
Really a massive letdown that matchlocks are so terrible in Shogun 2, when in real life they were the backbone of armies during the late Sengoku Jidai. When Hideyoshi invaded Korea, at least a third of his troops had guns.
they arnt though, escpecally in siege defense with the bonuses from being on walls, they will SLAUGHTER any unit reguardless of its armor (pretty sure the bullets ignore armor, hence the Date bulletproof samurai) the trick is keeping them alive and firing so they can deal that damage. their is also a nice guide on steam that explains a few things.
@@jaywerner8415 That's not the real problem though, the real problem is that anyone who plays on Legendary difficulty like Donkey usually not screwing around waiting to unlock matchlock, which at the minimum requires like 100 turns to get. They usually conquered half of the Japan and on their way to Domination Victory at that point, if not already beat the campaign, leaving little room for matchlock to come into play.
@@machaiping True, it does take a while to unlock, unless you grab up the paper resources and build the research chain, makes a big difference. But ya matchlocks are definitely LATE game relatively speaking.
@@jaywerner8415 There're only 5 research specialty buildings in the game scattered around the map, and one of them is Kyoto whose occupation triggers Realm Divide. So in practice they're not making much difference, at most shaving like a dozen turns out of 100s.
In my recent hard mode domination campaign, the Realm Divide was shoved down my throat by "great victory" from beating backstabbing AI doomstack coming my way while I was peacefully building up, which forced me to beat the entire map before gunpowder units become available.
But uselessness of gunpowder units is also present in Medieval 2 as well. Because in that game it was hard-coded to appear on turn 120 or so with no way to accelerate the process, but consider that most people will happily conquer the whole campaign map in 50 turns on the highest difficulty (or do so they don't have to deal with friggin Mongols)... yeah, same problem, too late to make a difference.
@@machaiping I mean each of those research specialties gives you what 30% maxed? for BOTH trees, plus that general skill for military tech and religious buildings and monks for civil tech. having been playing again recently it only takes like 20-40 ish turns for a straight shot to gunpowder mastery (i think its a little over 30 turns to go straight for it, so realistically without any research buffs it probably takes 50-60 turns or so for someone to go for it.).
I wish he wouldve explained the fire by rank thing that the matchlocks get
Ostensibly, it is supposed to work like Fire By Rank in Empire: Where three ranks of a unit fire one after the other to ensure a faster overall rate of fire. However... It doesn't properly work in Shogun 2: for some reason it takes the ashigaru forever to open fire and begin their cycle, so usually the unit actually gets engaged in melee by their target before they can even finish their first cycle.
@@SerLagsalot Thats because as one guide on steam told me, fire by rank makes matchlocks more deadly then they already are, ya know those old war movies where the captain is always shouting "READY! STEADY! AIM! FIRE!" thats basically what that is. i cant recall if this gives them more MORAL shock or if by aiming they actually get more kills per volley.
Gr8 video Mr, I'm a big fan of your work sir
I have to stress a major misconception about Shogun Total War that even veteran players make. Do not depend on balanced stacks. Specialized stacks are more effective. Especially cavalry only stacks as reinforcements.
Hello Mr.Smartdonkey. I am a big fan of your. I have a question. I saw you use yari samurai a lot in your shimazu campaign but with a highly upgraded armor. So, it is good to use them if you have high upgrade.
Not really, that was just one of my first campaigns, from all the way back in 2014 when I didn't realize yet that they're not very good compared to other units.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP thank you for your reply:) i will believe you and use naginata samurai to cover my flank instead.
So just wondering where is the naginata unit list?
Make top x naginata and hero units for shogun 2
Keep up the good work. Love you.
Maybe it's because I just suck, but I don't get the "Never fight sieges" mentality.
Who has a half dozen turns to just tie up their army and sit around? I usually can't afford that. Granted again I suck, and I only started playing the game properly a week or so ago, but I've only got one or two armies, three at best late game, and I need them doing things, not sitting around. Like fighting off the 3 other enemy armies which are always marching into my domain.
Not to mention most of the time due to AI build plan you will (at least at first... then again in fall of the samarui they only seem to upgrade their capitals) find lots of unupgraded forts so you can just murder the Samurai retainers with archers and be done in a few mins, no damage to the fort.
If you lay siege to a castle and it isn’t enough in your favourite to autoresolve they will generally sally out in one or two turns
Have you considered doing a top 5 for multiplayer units?
I've barely played any multiplayer, hence why I never made lists for it. They wouldn't be very good as I don't know what's good in multiplayer.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP ok. keep up the good work and have a nice day
The European cannons have one other redeeming factor.
They are THE BEST anti cavalry unit in the game.
To be fair though I only use them as the Otomo and even then only one unit of cannons per army
Fire Rockets have a thing or two to say about that.
If you use more than one fire rocket unit maybe but I have seen European cannons tear a general unit apart from 40 to 14 in a single wave (yes recruited in Buzen with the best accuracy possible otherwise they will indeed not hit the broadside of a barn) the cannon ball forces soldiers to fall on the ground and while infantry gets back up cavalry stays down
Fire Rockets can easily kill an entire general’s unit in a single volley with 0 upgrades.
Have you seen what fire rockets do the cavalry? one word, COOKED! and while they lack the range of cannons they are just as if not more so deadly. i can only assume its the rockets expulsion that makes it so deadly vs horsemen.
The explosion might make the wave more deadly but they don't have the range or the reload to deal with more than a single cavalry unit before the cavalry gets in melee with something. Cannons however do have the range to deal with most if not all the cavalry the AI tends to bring into battle
Yari do tend to be better if you use them as support for the front line.
the mangos can't hit the units, but these hit the moral... as far as i remember
Fire mangonels require army to be built around them so they can actually score kills LMAO
Are you planning on making any top 5 lists for Total War Three Kingdoms?
While mangonels suck, my favorite moment in shogun 2 was fucking incinerating a small takeda castle with a army of them.
G'day MrSmartDonkey, I'm sure you're aware but, it's worth the mention. There's a mod to give yari samurai the yari wall ability.
I know you don't use many mods (certainly not gameplay ones) but, I feel this is a worthwhile one as it makes yari sam actually worthwhile. They might actually make a top 10 list then :P
Pretty good this time.
MrSmartDonkeyLP, not giving a shit about haters since 2012. Keep up the great work ^^
try doing pike and shot formations with the matchlocks andd think that again xD at least imo
In my experience yari samurai are not that bad. Nahinata samurai on the other hand are more expensive but tend to cause less damage and die faster... maybe it was my experience!
Even if you do fight sieges, fire arrows or rockets are better at killing archer towers.
Agreed
Me before watching him: wow yari samurai is cool! He is strong and can destroy cavaleries, wow those guys with guns are cool!
After watching him: yarimazing
In 3 kingdoms, the trebuchet is fucking op, it can easily get 250+ per battle even 600 if you play it smart enough, but in shogun 2 it just a big joke
How do you make it so there's no general in custom battles. Please I beg of you. I have not found a mod for this. I've asked so many people who seem to not be using generals and custom battles. I beg. Please answer my question
Basically you have to add him first, then you can add all the other units and then you just double click the general in your army list again and he’ll leave. Essentially this means you can only have a max of 19 or 39 units per side in custom battles if you don’t include the general, but that’s how you do it.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP Thank you, I am forever in your debt and forever grateful for your actions and words kind sir, to repay only a small portion of this debt I will subscribe to you channel 🙏
That timestamp jebait, I watched the ad for you anyway
Good man, yeah I felt it would be bad manners if I timestamped it past the ad. People paid for me to show off their game.
Smartdonkey are you gonna keep on playing shogun total war 2
I have no plans on stopping anytime soon.
@@MrSmartDonkeyLP alright then
MrSmartDonkeyLP Can you play the Total FoTS mod?
@@totalwar1793 he said no
@@totalwar1793 What mod is that?
2:03 I feel personally attacked