The Firmament and the Waters Above - St. Ambrose of Milan
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- What is the firmament? What does Scripture mean by “waters above the heavens”? St. Ambrose expounds upon the Scriptural testimony and raises our minds and hearts both to God’s creation and God Himself. As he asks rhetorically, "When you hear this, why do you marvel if, by the operation of such majesty, water can be held suspended above the celestial firmament?"
📖 "Hexaemeron" by St. Ambrose of Milan
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🎧 The Firmament and the Waters Above - St. John Chrysostom
• The Firmament and the ...
📖 "Hexaemeron" by St. Basil the Great
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St. Ambrose teaches:
We follow the tradition of the Scriptures and we value the work by our esteem of the Author [Moses], as to what was said, who said it, and to whom it was said. ‘Let there be a firmament made,’ He said, ‘amidst the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters’ (Genesis 1:6). From this I learn that the firmament is made by a command by which the water was to be separated and the water above be divided from the water below. What is clearer than this? He who commanded the waters to be separated by the interposition of the firmament lying between them provided also the manner of them remaining in position, once they were divided and separated. The word of God gives nature its power and an enduring quality to its matter, as long as He who established it wishes it to be so, as it is written: ‘He hath established them forever and for ages of ages. He hath made a decree and it shall not pass away’ (Psalm 148:6). And that you may know that He said this concerning these waters which you say cannot exist in the higher parts of the heavens, listen to the words which precede: ‘Praise Him, ye heaven of heavens, and let all the waters above the heavens praise the name of the Lord’ (Psalm 148:4).... When you hear this, why do you marvel if, by the operation of such majesty, water can be held suspended above the celestial firmament? -Hexaemeron, p. 53-54
This firmament cannot be broken, you see, without a noise. It also is called a firmament because it is not weak nor without resistance. Hence, in dealing with thunderbolts, which give forth a tremendous crash when currents of air on the point of arising in the midst of the clouds meet together in collision, the Scripture speaks of strengthening the thunderbolt. Therefore, the firmament is called because of its firmness or because it has been made firm by divine power, just as Scripture teaches us, saying: "Praise ye him in the firmament of his power" (Psalm 150:1).
And I am not unaware that some refer "the heaven of heavens" to the intelligible powers, the firmament to the efficient powers and that the heavens praise and "shine forth the glory of God and the firmament declareth it"-yet, as we have said above, they declare them not as spiritual powers, but as things of the world. Others also interpret the waters to mean the purificatory powers. We accept this interpretation as a simple adornment to our treatise. To us, however, it does not appear to be inappropriate nor absurd, if we are to understand these to be real waters for the reasons given above. According to the hymn of the Prophet, dew, frost, cold and heat bless the Lord, the earth, too, blesses Him. Furthermore, we do not understand the stars to be unseen powers of nature, but as having real existence. Even dragons give praise to the Lord, because their nature and aspect, if one examines them closely, are not without presenting a certain modicum of beauty and design. -Hexaemeron, p. 62
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I love your thumbnails. I like how you juxtapose the saint whose text you are reading with the subject matter they are referring to.
Careful reading of St. John Damascene's "On The Orthodox Faith" II:6 "Concerning the Heaven" shows that a stationary earth with a hemispherical or spherical firmament was the standard view in the first millenium.
Thank you, brother. I failed to understand this passage for some time.
Now, I see it from a new perspective.
Awesome, very interesting! I just started rereading Genesis again.
I’ve been wondering about this stuff. I enjoy sitting in nature and willing my Attention to perceptually experience the Earth as flat and as being at the center of the Universe, and with experiencing my Being (my “I “) as being at the center of the Center. 😅 it’s really cool. I wonder if Medieval Christians lived continually, if not consciously, in this “state” of being (consciousness.)
If you think of the Firmament as encompassing the whole solar system or greater, it makes sense.
It also makes sense that the luminaries (sun, moon, stars, planets) are embedded in the Firmament, and the entire system rotates about North Pole defined by Polaris. That would explain why the same constellations are visible at the same time of year for thousands of years, a phenomenon that cannot be reconciled by modern rotating spherical earth cosmology (remember that earth purportedly orbits the sun, while the "solar system" is supposed to be hurtling through the vacuum of "outer space").
The Jesuits may have tampered with many of the Church Fathers' understanding of whether the Earth was spherical or flat.I personally think that the earth is flat. Of course, if you look at it together with the dome of the sky and the abyss, it is not flat. In fact, whether the earth is flat or not does not affect whether we are saved. We who believe in Jesus Christ are saved by the grace of God.
Don’t be foolish.
With all respect the Earth is a globe and seeing the horizon proves that. As you travel towards that horizon it constantly shifts forward which is proof you are chasing the curvature of the planet.
Have you noticed that over and over again objects are seen extremely far in the distance that should be hidden behind the curve? If refraction is the cause, why is light bending objects up to appear as though there is no curve…almost every time? I suggest looking into observations of objects in the distance and the nature of refraction, mirages, and how items on objectively flat surfaces can be obstructed slightly from the bottom up. The TH-cam channel “Taboo Conspiracy” has a number of thought provoking observations and demonstrations.
@@OrthodoxWisdom(Gi-Ming Shien wrote a paper on perception that could be helpful. Also, Fr. Seraphim Rose supported a Heliocentric model in his writings and lectures. Fully backed Copernicus.) Sometimes our observations can be contrary to reality.
I am very hesitant to disagree with the saints, but at times it seems necessary. St. Paisios even believed men landed on the moon, but now we know much more about how unlikely that is. As for Copernicus, I wonder what Fr. Seraphim would think if he knew about the occult, pagan philosophy behind heliocentrism. He was aware of that influence with other topics, including alchemical science and scientific philosophy. Watch the documentaries “Heliosorcery” and “The Principle” for more.
Interesting that NASA trains underwater for the sensation of being in space
God created the cellular cosmogony and he is at the highest point above us all
U believe in flat earth?
Hello. in my church you can receive communion only after having confessed but the problem is that to communion every Sunday you have to confess every week so it is complicated generally people confess and receive communion only once a month is that enough 1 communion per month? what can I do
It sounds like your in the Russian tradition. Saints, many saints, have been made in the Russian tradition. Ultimately, the frequency of communion is something to determine with your spiritual father. Frequent communion with proper preparation is salvific. But frequent communion without proper preparation is harmful.
@@OrthodoxWisdom thank you for your answer brother and I am Romanian (they have the same tradition as the Russians I think) the problem is that some priest refuses frequent communion (every Sunday) I don't know if all priests are like that, what should I do I have already thought about leaving my country because of this I am afraid of going to hell if I receive communion and confess only once a month
Don’t make a big decision quickly. Talk to your spiritual father. You could even ask if he blesses you to consult with another spiritual father or elder on this issue. Overall, I don’t think confessing and communing once a month is necessarily any real problem. But you need to find your way. Embrace Christ in everything.
@@OrthodoxWisdom Okay thank you and in the worst case if my priest does not accept I would say like you that it is not a real problem, I should then make more of an effort to get closer to God and compensate for this probleme thank you so much for help me god bless you 🙏
Ive been brought to ponder if in fact, our definitions of the elements are where we error? All appears to many waters. Simply different densities of waters. Watch the timelapse of the stars, watch them ebb and flow in their waters...watch dust float in the rays of the sun in their water we call "air"...we use fluid dynamics to study aerodynamics-this seems to be no coincidence. Do we need correcting of our understanding of the various forms of His waters? Even "solid" states flow as waters over time.. watch timelapses, see and marvel...His miraculous waters 😭
Our minds are limited in their comprehension of things and that remains so no matter the amount of technology and advanced knowledge. How would you describe multiple dimensions? Or entities who can travel through what we can't even percieve with our senses? How to explain things like bilocation? I've heared some compare it to cheatcodes in games. That would be an adequate descxription of magic.
If you want to read a book on this subject from the 5th century pick up a book called “Christian Topography” by cosmas the monk
☦️☦️☦️
Is there any writings from the Church on hollow earth?
No, but definitely of hollow souls
@@panokostouros7609 that sounds like a interesting topic, gonna have to read up on it.
@@godrilla5549I think he was just talking about being spiritually dead in a dramatic way. I don’t think literal hollow souls are a thing
@@nickkerinklio8239 I figured it out, kinda felt dumb lol.
Doesn’t this contradict St. John Chrysostem, who claimed the earth was bowl shaped? Ambrose is saying it’s round.
Can you point me to St. John saying the earth is bowl shaped?
Never heard of that claim by Saint John Chrysostom but,
1. I think he’s saying that the heavens are a sphere which turns around with the Earth, which is in the centre.
I don’t think he’s making a comment on the shape of the earth itself.
2. Bowls are round 🤷🏻♂️
A cereal bowl is round and a bowl shaped so am I opinion it can be both
I'll be honest.I have no idea what you're saying. Maybe what you're speaking about is gear towards a very few select
Read Genesis 1 a few times again and come back to this. That might help
@@OrthodoxWisdom I understand genesis one. But how the way you elaborate and describe the story. You're saying it in such a way that is not clear or concise for me to understand. What I'll do is forward this to my spiritual father and ask him.
Fair enough. I’m merely reading the text of St. Ambrose’s Hexaemeron. See link in description
flat earth , round earth.
real ones know the earth is hollow
Earth is not a sphere
It is if you want it to be
It is
💯 Let God be true, and every man a lier.
I’m 50/50 on the flat earth thing. They have some good arguments, but I wouldn’t die on that hill.
Correct