How Do You Build RPG Party Chemistry?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2021
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RPGs are great at telling long-form stories, and great parties help make their stories stick with you for a long time. But how do you go about building a great party dynamic? It's more than any one character, more than the archetypes, more than the ships. It's about character dynamics and pacing and putting the jigsaw pieces together to create something more than the sum of its parts. Let's talk about some games that do a great job at building great RPG party chemistry, and a few medium-bad ones too.
Featuring:
Final Fantasy X
Octopath Traveler
Final Fantasy XV
Bug Fables
Paper Mario
Mass Effect
Fire Emblem
Valkyria Chronicles
Chrono Cross
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Thank you Mr Moneybags, now I know how to edit videos xD
The very first game in the video is Dragon Quest XI, but you didn't list it in your description.
May you please talk about temporary party members
can you do a vid on how to make synergy between party members in a battle system?
I wish you talked about wrath of the righteous' party, almost all of them are great, even the evil ones
Then there's Miitopia, where the player inserts whoever they want and then the story just writes itself
Yup, it’s either really funny, sad, interesting, or drama filled
Don't forget the fact that battle does affect relationships! Yes, the bond gets stronger as characters fight side by side in Fire Emblem, but unlike Miitopia, they won't get mad at each other because one missed and hit the party member.
@@KoylTrane Unless you use Wild Shot.
And the game is psychic so the generic lines everybody is given somehow still fits the cast you choose.
@@Moss_Dude Reminds me of being spooked because I saw the game reference an actual dynamic in another game by pure chance.
"Maybe the real value is the friends we made along the way"
Shin Megami Tensei's protagonists: "ha, I killed all my friends"
lol, got demons, don't care
You don't need your old friends, Jack Frost is your new superior friend.
HEE HO!
Funny how you can actually do that in Apocalypse.
I never did because I love the cast (except for Toki), but it's still funny
SMT could use some better writing in that regard though.
Look how heart broken people are in FE3H when they have to kill students from another house in a previous playthrough.
SMT1 probably was the best in this regard since you spent the entire first part with Law and Chaos Hero, and then later in the game you would be shocked on what they became. A remake could definitely help with fleshing this part out and selling the tragedy.
SMT4 tried to replicate it and was more fleshed out, but you barely see your former friends after the split and it wasn't exactly the best written. "Manga"
>"secret enemies"
>Sora and Donald
Finally, someone speaks the truth.
they just got mad at each other for one world. they became friends again.
@@TheShiningEnergy I believe the OP is referring to the way that Donald doesn't heal Sora when you need him to lol
@@aCavemanNamedJaR ahh. ok. yeah, i see what you mean.
@@aCavemanNamedJaR this is why I always have cure/cura/curaga in my hot keys
"Great parties don't usually start as a group of strangers". That's why I love the cast of Tales of Berseria so much. They start off as total strangers to each other, and generally don't get along for a good part of the game. The main character doesn't join up with the other 5 out of a sense of comradery or friendship, but rather because she thinks that she can use them to further her own goal. As the game goes on, the characters are humanized and do eventually become more of a family by the end, although their personalities might not let them admit it. It's a really unique party dynamic that you just don't see in many other games.
I need to give Berseria another shot. The cast seems really enjoyable in a roguish kind of way. I didn't really enjoy the combat from what I played so I bounced off.
This. This right here is why I hold Berseria in such a high regard for it's story telling. The party was like nothing I have ever seen in an RPG cause everyone was all about themselves which made that dynamic alone worth playing further to explore how it pans out. And honestly the long long hours of watching this build up and change at many pivotal points in the plot? -chef's kiss-
@@DesignDoc key basic: abuse status Ailments and you’ll start to understand what they were going for. Main issue I have is how the handle skills and weapon drops, but they allow for better stat building on characters. That way, you can really enjoy the story and not worry about combat too much until much, much later.
I felt conflicted in the early parts of Berseria as Velvet's quest for revenge had her cause trouble for people that didn't do anything to her and that the her enemy didn't seem that bad beside what he did to her. It wasn't until later on. though, that everything becomes clear and that Velvet should keep going on her mission.
@@t.v.rockwell4504 A few of the Tales games have morally grey protagonists. Berseria took that concept to it's logical extreme.
This is why the five man band is such a common party structure. Even if all the members don't fit specifically into one archetype (Hero, Lancer, Heart, Smart guy and Big guy), all the roles that each archetype fulfills will generally be divided amongst all the party members and they will collectively make the party a full entity.
For others wondering about this trope, watch OSP trope talk on the topic!
Maybe having 5 active party members in a game would allow for using the benefits of the five-man band.
@@connordarvall8482 A 5 man, playable party in a RPG/JRPG?! That's...that's...MADNESS!! No really though, that could be interesting, I'm surprised no one has done that yet. I'd rather have 5 party members that are written fantastically, than 10 that are forgettable at best.
@@XDarkEcho epic battle fantasy 5 pulled that off pretty well imo, though the story itself isn't that deep lol
@@XDarkEcho Digital Devil Saga 1 has a 5-character party, where everyone neatly fits into the five-man-band archetypes and it pulls it off really well. It gets a bit more complicated in DDS2, but still worth pointing out.
Fire Emblem: Three Houses does a couple of things that get a lot of mileage out of the cast:
-The inter-character drama is never *plot* relevant, but is both a direct result of gameplay decisions you make, and also confers a mechanical benefit.
-There is a *lot* of it: a lot of characters can interact with a lot of other characters. Because of this, the simple jumping-off points of the characters' individual personalities create conflicts that provide details to what would otherwise be fairly archetypical characters.
I like how everyone looks 1 dimensional till you meet them:
Ferdinand looks like an arrogant self absorbed noble but he’s actually an honest hardworking guy who just wants everyone to have a good behaviour
Felix looks like an edgy antisocial who just wants to duel, but is actually a guy who tries to be strong to protect those around him, disagrees with the way knights are meant to give their life or their king, and likes when people sing
Seteth looks like the tipical strict priest and overprotective brother, but he’s actually the most wise, sane and understanding character in the game
@@rage_2000 Don’t forget Sylvain. He looks like your typical womanizer character, until you look into his support conversations and realize he actually HATES women. He thinks that most women only want him for his Crest, which had been the major cause for childhood abuse from his brother. Getting with women and then breaking their hearts is like his revenge. It’s not healthy, no, but it shows how deeply Crest Society has cracked him.
One thing I love about Three Houses' support system is that its supports change based on where you are in the story and other factors. To give one example, in Ingrid's supports with Claude if she's recruited to the Golden Deer, she'll tell him that a guy she knows is bothering her. Claude will specifically ask if it's Sylvain, but ONLY if Sylvan is also recruited into the Golden Deer.
Still, I feel that 3H falls into the same writing pitfall every other FE falls into: the cast is just way too big and the solutions for exploring them too limited to make them truly stand out. The side characters suffer the most because pretty much all they get is supports and a paralogue. Paralogues only constitute a small 3-4-scene mini-arc and supports are such a formulaic display of 'tell don't show' that I don't feel it's enough to carry the characterisations on their own. It's as if you removed the main story from a Tales game and only left the skits - it's just not enough. And only the select few side characters get to be relevant to the main story but only if their inclusion aids the arc of the route's lord, not their own.
Plus a chapter-based story structure faces its own difficulties when it comes to character writing. Works great for an action game like DMC, not so much for a 60-hours-long jRPG with loads of characters.
It depends on the Fire Emblem game. Some have plot relevant characters survive, but you can't use them in battle anymore. They get demoted from playable unit to NPC.
This. This is such a huge part of rpgs to me. Well written and enjoyable characters will make or break an RPG for me
That's the reason I enjoyed FF XV. Yes the combat could be better and the main story is not that good. But the party dynamics are fantastic. You can feel why they're friends.
Same for me, those connections and the character development are what I enjoy the most. It really fleshes a story out
And that's why I never finished Octopath Traveler
It is but sometimes you need to limit the characters. Trails of Cold Steel 3 and onwards feels pain to explain 50 characters since they bring all characters in the series including the past arc games...
@@veeshadow good characters certainly doesn't mean lots of characters. I'll take three or even two really interesting and enjoyable characters over a full cast of them any day
BUG FABLES MENTION, WOOO
And I completely and heavily agree with the Team Snakemouth being incredibly well written. They really are just inseparable. The amount of optimal dialogue and polish with the writing is incredible.
Hey aren’t you the guy who uploaded- Nah, just kidding, I’m also super happy to see bug fables get attention
Bug Fables is so good! It's a shame so many people drop it before it gets good. I'll be the first to admit that it takes a while to get going, but once you get there it REALLY pulls you in
@@AlphaOblivion7 Really? For me it was great from the start
Yoo Elu you’re the one who got me to buy the game
@@millythompsonfromtrigun98anime Awesome! That makes me happy to hear because it definitely deserves more attention
The Tales of games have one of my favorite ways of doing party dynamics, called Skits. While you're walking around in the world, sometimes the game will give you an optional prompt to watch a scene of character portraits talking to each other about various things, which is a really good way to bring in character dialogue and show things that don't really fit well into scenes, all without sacrificing too much time. If you don't like them, you don't have to watch a single one, but for those who want the extra dialogue they're amazing
the bravely default series has a similar system and it really fleshes out the personality and interparty dynamics
The party chat in modern Dragon Quest games also does that really well.
At any point you can have your companions react to the events, allowing to build their personalities organically.
The skits are the best part of Tales games! This is what they were trying to hit with Octopath Traveler, but through most of the main story, the available dialogues are just so... generic. The big character moments come after you've finished the game, which is certainly a choice.
Tales has always been good with their skits fleshing out character dynamics. Even the games i dont like as much i like a little more do the interactions that come from skits
The Xenoblade Chronicles games also have this feature, called Heart-to-Heart. You also get to make a choice which alters the dialogue and grants you bonus Trust with whatever character you sided with. Still entirely optional as you get Trust just from playing with that character, but it's a nice bonus and you get some really cool scenes.
Mario & Luigi have such a pleasant bond between each other, truly inseparable and it's something I love about the Mario & Luigi RPGs. They really dial up the brotherly love and care for each other, even down to the mechanics that use both together or their special attacks that can't be used with one K.Oed.
'Lets-a-go!'
'Okie-dokie!'
Or even just moments like Teehee Valley.
I think part of what makes the Bros. work is the intimacy of the cast. Only having two characters, especially brothers, allows for the game to showcase the inseparability of these two, and it's great!
@@mb778_ That's actually my thing with the Mario n Luigi series is that it is "only" them don't get me wrong I like the game but it would of been cool to see ah whole cast especially with as many characters u can use on mario
I especially love that Mario and Luigi, on the enemies turn, will try to protect the unconscious brother to his own detriment
One other way you can do this that isn't really mentioned in this video is combat quips, or little bits. The Tales series of JRPGs, for instance, has a ton of post-battle conversations based on who's in your active party, with character dynamics and running jokes being established purely through them. Tales also has Skits, little quick side conversations that appear during dungeon exploration or world map traversal, that also do a ton to flesh out the characters.
A personal favorite of mine is a running joke in Tales of Berseria where whenever the party makes it to ruin or dungeons, Eizen, a world-traveling pirate, will dump some lore and background information on the party in a skit, which establishes him as having an interest in history and lets him feel like one of the more mature members of the party... until later on in the game, when Eleanor, a studious and heavily religious knight, also joins the party, and starts correcting his little history lessons. It's a funny bit on its own, it establishes Eizen and Eleanor's dynamic, and it also reframes Eizen's earlier characterization from 'guy who knows a lot to' 'guy who *thinks* he knows a lot.
Really recommend the Tales series in general if you want to see this done well.
Yes, I agree. I think the one thing Tales really shines in is its party dynamics. It's crazy that more RPGs didn't copy skits or post-battle convos.
@@Hyperion_Dark It's been DECADES and I don't think I've seen any other franchise grab it. Is it copyrighted?
@@RicochetForce Nah, that's not something that can be copywritten. It hasn't been emulated because 1) random battles with victory screens in rpgs are rare these days and 2) it would require more effort than these people are willing to give.
Loveeee thiiisss commmment
@@Hyperion_Dark Xenoblade also does the after battle dialogue thing
I think this is why I love RPGs so much. I’m a sucker for character relationships and development. Games like Kingdom Hearts and Persona have such fleshed out characters that it makes the story so enjoyable
The dynamic of Persona 2's party in specific is amazing. And the contrast of the parties of both games also really works. I won't spoil too much but the twist in Innocent Sin makes it the most unique party of the series
Kingdom Hearts is an rpg?
@@Walamonga1313 sometimes
@@Walamonga1313 what is it if not an rpg? 🤔
@@Walamonga1313 why would it NOT be?
Radiant historia, a ds rpg with a 3ds remake, does a good job tying the party to the main mechanic both in narrative and gameplay. The game has the main character traveling back between two different time lines, and back in time for both. Because the story plays out differently in both, the party is also different, with party members in one time line being NPCs, antagonists, or not appearing in the other. It does a good job of showing the effect one person can have on the world around them, which is a theme in the game. The downside is that often party members’ primary connection is with the mc, so it has a kind of spoke and wheel group dynamic.
Radiant Historia has a mostly great cast, but unfortunately I think Gafka really gets the short end of the stick, much like Kimahri in FFX. He's basically just there to enable one plot point and has no presence in the story beyond that. I suppose the issue is that he's *too* much of an outsider, and never really gets the chance to integrate with the main plot.
@@elliotgott2993 Yup Gafka was severely underused.
Yessssss more Bug Fables love! The character writing in it is so strong. While I wish Octopath had a bit more inter party interaction, the way they set up dynamics and who can comment on what depending on your party is nice. Octopath in general is set up to be a very different narrative type game which I know a lot of people dont gel with but I do. If you have Cyrus in one of Primrose's chapters, he'll ask if he can learn to dance, and the tavern conversation combos can be entertaining as well!
9:07 "Each party member [...] need to stay relevant as long as they're going to be around." *shows Haru Okumura* You didn't need to rub salt in the wound!
Haru is set up to matter in the story but no let’s focus more on a dumb falling out with Morgana instead.
@@DesignDoc even the new girl in royal has more screentime than poor haru
At least we have Strikers now. Party dynamic's a lot better there and everyone manages to stay relevant.
@@nachohangover5104 Ryuji finally used his f word pass.
@@dafire9634 Such a shame that they didn't use the opportunity to give Haru more screen time in Royal
I’m so glad you mentioned how Fire Emblem and Valkyria Chronicles handles its casts of expendable characters. Nothing truly hurts more than losing your favorite character due to your own lack of skill, which can be a driving force to replay and get better at the game. I love it.
Which is why I always play on Casual. Not really a fan of permadeath
Well, sometimes it's just bad luck, not necessarily skill.
Yeah, but in the first Valkyria Chronicles only a handful of characters have any screen time. While some facts about characters are interesting (like that 12 y.o. girl soldier) they don't get to interact with each other.
@@KoylTrane I wanna experience 4 for myself, but how are characters handled in VC 2 and 3?
@@paperluigi6132 I'll be honest with you chief, I didn't play VC 2 and 3. But I can say that in VC4 if you deploy characters that like each other, you will unlock a special mission for them, called "Squad Stories".
Urdnot Wrex and Mordin Solus are the most impactful "disposable" characters in Mass Effect solely because their presence in the game determines how the genophage arc ends. And there's a surprising amount of outcomes to that trilogy-spanning storyline. It's absolutely brilliant and both characters are wonderfully memorable for how unique and fleshed out they are.
One party dynamic I always come back to is Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age. Having a silent protagonist is hard but Camelot used very clever narrative techniques to have other party members "react" to what the protagonist was supposedly saying. It was a "party dynamic by contrast" where you the player would fill in the blanks based on everyone's reactions. I remember thinking it was very charming and engaging when I played it as an 11 year old.
The experience is made weirder when you realize the mute protagonist of the first game is allowed to talk in the second, and in turn, the protagonist of the second game talks during his short appearances in the first game. Apparently not only are the protagonists actually talking, but we can hear them as long as they're not *currently* our avatar.
Golden sun is such a hidden gem, wish they would make a modern versio
Wouldn't call Golden Sun a hidden gem, combined sales were just under 3 million units sold. That being said I do wish the old gang at camelot got back together and made something inspired by their work on Shining and Golden sun but alas...almost none of the original devs are with the company.@@larkley663
I've still never finished it but Xenoblade had what, like 8 party members. Most of which you meet fairly early on and they all play some part in each cutscene. The affinity system helps flesh it out, and the heart to hearts make it feel like the group is getting to know each other even better.
Xenoblade 1 has 7, Xenoblade 2 has 5 drivers, and depending on how you count, somewhere between 5 and 9 I think (let's just call it 6 though, as a bunch of the blades don't get to be relevant often (Aegeon is always forgotten)) main blades
In 1, you're aware of all the party members by chapter 9 or 10 iirc (of 17), although you don't get Seven for a chapter or two longer
In 2, you've met everyone during chapter 3 (of 10), and have full access by chapter 5 or 6.
And yeah, in most cutscenes, most people get to express something about the situation, then later on they might get to reflect on it in a heart to heart, or even in another cutscene. There's obvious dynamics put in between certain party members to help it feel interconnected, and it's quite nice seeing the characters care for each other through the cutscenes and the heart to hearts.
One of my favourite moments in 1 is near the start of chapter 12, the party is a bit split up for a time, and Melia, Dunban, and Riki are walking together. Riki complains about being hungry and tired, so they set up camp for a bit, and Melia falls asleep. Dunban then notes that Riki isn't sleeping or eating, and makes the connection that Riki noticed that Melia was struggling and decided to help her get some rest, because she wouldn't say so herself. It's this wonderful little moment that really shows the fatherly side of Riki, and arguably the big brother side of Dunban, towards Melia.
@@dhi_holo True, that whole area is the best in the game and I won't accept any substitutes.
My favorite party is Dragon Quest 11’s. Every character feels like a vital part of the team. The trials and tribulations they go through help them bond despite coming from a variety of situations and backgrounds. Erik & The Luminary feel like the typical “ride or die” bromance that forms between the first 2 party members. Serena & Veronica feel like they complete each other which helps form the second half of the story. Jade & Rab aren’t even blood relatives but you can tell they have a (grand)father and daughter bond after being with just each other for years. Slyvando and the secret 8th character having similar views of knighthood helps with their loyalty for the Hero. What especially makes this is that while everyone has some connection to the MC, they also have dynamics amongst each other. You see how they truly feel with things like Eric’s amnesia, #8’s struggle with an old friend, a certain heavy loss, and Sylvando making amends with his dad. Truly makes things like the reunion and the final boss rewarding because they’ve been through so much together
Completely agree - I love that it's mini dynamics within a big group dynamic
@@may8876 I’m in a mood to replay it after the recent DQ livestream. I miss these characters
@@Zenithal1843 Same here!
Yes 100 %. But the third part of the game ruined this for me a little bit. It was like all the character development was gone and as we all know, there was much development in the 2nd part. Just the new character stories between the 1st and the 2nd part were so fleshed out. But still an outstanding game!
@@mco7478 Yeah I personally dropped the game halfway through the post game. Didn’t feel right leaving behind the other reality and having an ideal future after working through the odds.
I feel like the Persona 2 games have amazing parties, especially Innocent Sin which completely develops and reveals plot points related to the party throughout the story. I would love to talk more about P2 but a lot of the character moments involve spoiling the story...
However there is one thing I could say without spoiling: the game has a mechanic called "contact" which allows you to contact demons. You can pair up on party members during these to get more options as well and at the start of the game there aren't really any as the party is still relatively unfamiliar with each other though there are some pre-established relationships. Over the course of the game, the many different combinations increase as the party establishes relationships between each other and forming unique bonds that can be seen through this contact system.
completely agree, persona 2 imo has the best group dynamic out of the rest of persona games
Indeed. There is just no contest.
I was just going to comment how Persona 2 did an awesome job with the cast. Small party to make the bonds between them feel much stronger, protagonists with a backstory and relationship with the party members prior to the games events, relevant characters throughout the whole story, brought back characters from SMT If... and Persona 1, etc. And even though this video only talked about RPG parties, can we please talk about the absolute excellence of P2's villains? P2IS literally was the first game to make me tear up at the events just before the final boss fight due to how messed up it was (won't go into detail because the story is to good to spoil). Incredible cast to a phenomenal duology.
@@brain5272 And all that's before getting into all the subtle details put into the entire cast in terms of both dynamics and symbolism.
The Persona 2 Duology is so fucking Kino
I was expecting this video to be about gameplay interactions, something like the triangle of support, attacker, and tank, talking about the multiple variants in some games and how some sort of have unique yet interesting gameplay interactions. Still a really good video, but I wanted to say that.
Architect of games recently did that video.
If you want more info on that subject it's called the holy trinity. We're doing a video on that soon.
same
Like many I feel like a good party dynamic makes or breaks a JPRG, which is why I ended up loving Persona 5 Strikers so much for really improving the PTs chemistry. The original kept my attention with its gameplay and style but I always felt the Phantom Thieves never got to really feel like a group, unlike SEES and the Investigation Team. The story was better paced than P4 but so many cutscenes focusing on the main story meant the Thieves besides Makoto and Futaba dropped off after their joining arcs. Strikes did a great job of giving more time for them to hang out as friends without sacrificing the story pacing (something I felt was a problem in P4), and I hope its writers (who wrote for Royal but not vanilla P5) stay on to write Persona 6.
I felt like in Persona 5, the Phantom Thieves were all friends with Joker, but not really friends with each other outside their roles as Phantom Thieves ... which worked for me personally in comparison to Persona 4 given the context. If no supernatural stuff had happened, Yu probably would have still befriended everyone except Naoto. He pretty much instantly joined the friend group of Chie,Yukiko and Yosuke. Joker might not have had a single friend except maybe Ryuji if nothing supernatural happened and none of those kids would have any reason to talk to each other. Naturally though ... by Persona 5 Strikers they are pretty much bonded for life after some really formative experiences
Uhh, i won’t say P3 crew character dynamic is better than P5. Outside of maybe Junpei and Yukari, you rarely see that much normal interactions between party members. Mitsuru and Akihiko feel distant from the the rest (rightfully so because they are senpai), though there is a very deep relationship between two of them. P3 cast work better as individual characters rather than a group in my opinion.
P5 crew in P5R have a lot of casual interactions that shown their dynamic like a close friend group. Of course P5S has a ton more of that, but i don’t think the original is lacking.
I agree with most of this, but let’s not act like SEES had a good party dynamic
@@kazenna The thing with SEES is they start as "co-workers, but not friends" and that only changes very late into the game. While it means they don't have much of a dynamic for a while, there's a reason for it, and it's something that's commented on in Q when they see how close the Investigation Team is. It's a unique take on the team dynamic. P5 felt like the same thing, except this time there wasn't a reason for it.
10:22 this is exactly how I felt about Bug Fables. Neither Vi, Kabbu, or Leif seem like main characters. They all have equal roles in the story. That really just goes to show how great their friendship is
If we’re talking about expendable party members, you literally have to play Russian roulette in Lisa to progress, with each round being a 50% chance to lose a party member permanently
Wtf
I was scrolling just to find the LISA love in the comments. Terry didn't have a unique story arc in Painful, but I'll be damned if I wouldn't go save him if he's kidnapped at a rest site
I love Final Fantasy V's party a whole lot, more than any game in the series until XV, V's cast is just a group that quickly becomes friends who legitimately enjoy each other's company, and even with how early on it was in the series the game still does a great job selling the camaraderie and friendship between the group both with the big story events and smaller moments like Bartz and Galuf getting drunk at a bar, Bartz bonding with Krile, the moments of Lenna and Faris connecting as family, etc.
Also what I think makes Bartz a particularly great protag, despite being kind of the most simple character of the group early in the game, is that he has a distinct dynamic with each other character that's rly endearing. Perhaps it's not much of a surprise given how small the party is, but FFV easily has the best main cast of the snes games (and also my personal favorite of the series)
Oh really? I personally can't stand FFV's story and especially not Bartz. I just hate his guts so much.
Whereas I find many of FF8's characters bland, I really like how during the exam your team is Squall, Seifer and Zell: three characters that hate each other but there is also some respect for each other's skills.
When Seifer fails the exam due to going against orders he applaudes the others, and if I remember correctly Zell is the one most troubled by Seifer taking the hit for the team.
Yeah, when they get to Galbadia Garden and the find out Seifer's (supposed) fate, Zell definitely takes it hard, since even though Seifer was an arrogant asshole he was still "one of them" (losing even one person in your unit is always going to be hard, no matter how sour the actual relationship might have been).
I thought Moneybags’ motivation was gems.
The Bug Fables mention warms up my heart so much
The fact that Bug Fables got some more recognition gives me l i f e.
While Yakuza: Like a Dragon has some memorable characters, I do agree that it does feel like not all the characters had their time in the spotlight. Zhao is an especially big offender, since he plays a big part in the story where he's initially introduced as a potential antagonist, but when he does join the party, he stops being important despite being, y'know, the (ex)leader of a Chinese mafia gang. And while there are a couple of optional scenes that really flesh out his character, the problem is that he's not relevant to the main story once he becomes playable, despite the story taking twists and turns that would have been prime opportunities to flesh out his reasons for remaining a member of the party, as well as exploring the unique skills he could have brought to the table.
That being said, the interpersonal connections between the main party are very well done and feel very fleshed out relative to other RPGs. No one is defined by any one trait or personality quirk, and it does feel like the cast interact with each other outside of the time the player spends playing the game.
Ichiban, Nanba, Adachi, and Saeko are a cohesive unit. Han and Zhao feel slapped on, with Eri being connected by a broken staple.
@@kinryuten Han and Zhao could have been handled better not gonna lie, I like them, but I feel like the game didn't flesh them out as much as they should have for me to get attached to these characters.
And Eri...As much as it pains me to say this, but that's the optionally unlockable party member curse. They don't flesh her out nearly at all with the rest of the party (Aside of Ichiban through her management minigame) because the people who don't do side quest wouldn't even know about her.
Tales of Berseria, a mish mash cast of characters, that after learning of impending doom, band together, each with their own reasons of course; revenge, a decent challenge, stopping the main villain from achieving their plans, a relative working with the main villain, etc. I find this to be one of my favourite reasons for characters to work together; personal goals, although you guys may not agree with it.
Any Berseria fans out there?
I really have to finish that game.
I didn't liked the battle system that much but the story and characters are really enjoyable. Heck, i may not agree with Velvet on many things, but i do empatize with her a lot and it's my fav char from the game.
I love persona 4 not for the plot itself, but for the conections i made with each character in the social links. Was wonderful to see why they are what they are, their motivations and fears, it was like i was actualy talking with friends.
It's the game where you can feel and tell they are all good friends. In 3 they feel like Co-workers until a certain point in the game and while it's pretty good in 5, you know that if it wasn't for their Phantom Thief work they wouldn't've come together.
I agree while I like Persona 5 a lot, Persona 4 has the best character friend dynamic. To me you cared about the characters a lot more
I feel like most persona games are like that, you're not always driven by the MC but most of the time by other characters surrounding the MC, the MC is simply a window for you to gaze on the other character's development while tying gameplay aspects like Arcana alongside it
Then we have 2. One of the main character's crowning moments is early on. He beats the fuck out of an enemy Persona user WITHOUT his own Persona after getting shanked plenty of times. That scene was so cool. Also shows some hefty character development for what was originally the haughty joke character
The character dynamics in CrossCode are fantastic. I was really invested in the growing friendship between Lea and Emilie, the rivalry turning into respect between Lea and Apollo, and the unique personalities of the supporting cast. Add onto that the fact that the game was built to feel like playing an MMO and pulls it off with great success.
crosscode surprisingly became one of my favorite games ever, and whenever i think back on it, i usually remember lea and emilie's reunion. its amazing that the devs managed to pack so much character into a protagonist who literally can only say a handful of words.
Omg yes, Crosscode killed me and brought me back to life so many times with it's fantastic characters and writing, which is an odd thing to say since the MC can barely say anything lol.
CrossCode really is an underrated game.
Yeah, seriously the moment emilie and lea run into each others arm while ugly sobbing and apologizing... it made me cry as a full grown ass man, lol.. absolutely fantastic characters!
I love the crosscode party, but I do kinda wish there was more sidestories focusing on the party members. Probably would've been massive scope creep, but the little tastes we get of everyone's lives really makes me want to know more about them
I feel like some RPGs expected the player to have a theater of the mind where interaction between characters does happen but the player has to fill in the gaps themselves. there's a cutscene in final fantasy XII that I really like where two characters talk to each other and they look at other charcters who talk to each other and you don't get to hear what the second set of characters say, it just implies that the characters do talk to each other more than what the player sees.
For me, Persona 4 is my favorite party just because there friendship feels more genuine than any other game I've played.
I think its because the first 3 party members Yosuke, Chie, and Yukiko already know each other and have a dynamic. Chie and Yukiko are besties and Chie and Yosuke are friends enough that she would lend him her kung fu dvd. Then the plot events help to further deepen those bonds and they grow closer to each other and we get to see and experience that growth from them (Chie telling Yukiko her truth once they beat her shadow, helping Yukiko to accept her shadow)
@@LuminousArc92 And Kanji fits in with them and adds to the great interactions between them.
Marking to reply when I'm not on mobile.
Agreed. Best party chemistry in Persona
Yukiko and Chie have great chemistry having been friends for so long (and their relationship gets explored further later on as you do their dungeon), Yosuke and the protagonist get close fast and the preexisting weird relation between Chie and Yosuke make it work.
Teddy's admiration for the protagonist allows him to join the group easily... Kanji feels a bit more forced in my opinion, but he still works.
Naoto and Rise though, to me, don't really feel like they belong.
One of the biggest reasons I really loved _Final Fantasy VII Remake_ is because of how well they handled every single character. Honestly, my favorite parts of that game are not even combat-related (although boss battles are _amazing_); I just really enjoyed seeing characters interacting with each other. The cast is so fleshed out, even the support cast (Marle, for instance). I can't wait to see future entries and how they'll tackle characters like Cid and Vincent.
Finally, someone mentioned FF 7 Remake. I'm surprised not many people mentioning it here in the comments.
Although i still think FF 15 has the best party dynamics in the franchise so far, FF7 Remake came pretty close. My only gripe IMO is that ouside cutscenes and battles, the characters mostly follow each other completely silent.
@@artemis1993 That depends on the area, really. For example, when Cloud escapes the Sector 5 Church with Aerith, they really fleshed out the dialogue from the original game, which takes like, 45 seconds, to over 5 minutes. You really get to see how quirky Aerith is as she talks with Cloud and ask him stuff, and you even see how #thuglife she when she drops that "Shit!". Nearly every new area you walk into has tons of character moments as they talk while you explore. Sure, when you exhaust the bantering, they won't really say anything else, but that's ok.
Honestly, FFVIIR had more memorable character moments to me than FFXV. The advantage that XV has is that characters already know each other, so their interactions are a bit more personal. In VIIR's case, they're meeting and getting to know each other. To me, that carries way more emotional weight, such as when Barret finally acknowledges Cloud as an ally, or when Tifa comes to save him from falling from the Shinra Building.
With the sequels episodes it'll be really nice to see those relationships and bonds getting stronger. And it'll be specially devastating when "that" happens to "that" character, way more than it was in the original game, since they'll lay the ground way more and have you, the player, get far more attached to those characters.
i hate it when a game just straight up murders my healer with a giant freaking sword
And then the developers have to create another female character to serve as the MC's *actual* "love interest" (even though through 90% of the game he has all of the emotional range of a spacefaring rock).
It's a great twist because no one would expect the love interest or best supporting character to be killed. His actual love interest makes a lot of sense when you think about it, especially when you realize his interest in the flower girl was probably largely due to his memories being jumbled with the actual 1st class soldier
I enjoy the fact that nobody said any names, bit everyone understands the topic
@@IvanezRus it's so true. I haven't even played the game and I know exactly what they're talking about!
That's why I never managed to finish that game. Like, fuck it, I don't care about the emotional anguish this causes the characters (I mean I do, but...) but I'm not alright with the gameplay side of things robbing me of my only healer.
Other games from the same franchise also often had characters die or leave the party, but the core roles stayed. I genuinely hated what they did in that particular game.
Some rare Tales of Symphonia love!
Highly appreciated.
The amount and quality of dialog in Bug Fables is astounding to me. Man I love that game.
This is actually particularly relevant to a hobby project I'm working on. I have my own thoughts I've come to, but I'm super interested in your thoughts on character gameplay interactions, too!
If making a story (game or some other type of media) I'd recommend checking out Overly Sarcastic Production's Trope Talk series. It's awesome.
I really like the party in Nier Replicant because their banter is so hilarious and all their personalities clash in the best way. Especially between Kaine, who swears like a sailor and wears lingerie 24/7 and Weiss, a sassy ancient tome. Their arguments were the best part of the game alongside the amazing story.
Also of course the persona games always have great parties with great conversations.
Nier is a really weird case that goes against the entire video here, methinks. None of the party members know each other, and just kinda join you when its relevant. They're all just incredibly eccentric, leading to them being an enjoyable cast anyways. To best highlight the issues with this though, the sequel can be used. Personally, I found 2B and 9S to be a more engaging party despite being arguably more bland characters, but them being comrades from the start helped their relationship feel more natural.
I dunno... I just feel Nier could've done better, is all. Of course, I haven't finished the entire game yet, so maybe something else will stick as well.
I really like the Kaine & Emil dynamic, where they bond over their mutual otherness and become sibling-like, despite their wildly different personalities. It's the, "Someone will die." - "Of fun!" dynamic, which is always fun. But the fact that they're both so othered by society (mundanely through being gay/intersex and fantastically through being monstrous and magical) just makes their dynamic work. They aren't bound by a shared history, but rather by a profoundly personal shared struggle.
(I love when Emil is telling Nier about camping and eating marshmellows with Kainé, and she's like, "Hey, *can it!* ...I got a fucking image to maintain.")
@@normal6483 Yes!! You've described them so perfectly! Kaine being a somewhat caring sister type of figure to Emil as they're both outcasts is adorable, and their new campfire scene where Emil listens to Kaine talk about her grandma is so sweet as well :') Nier is just amazing with it's characters...
@@jonathanlennon-kelly8642 I hated 9S, what an annoying character
@@Walamonga1313 i try to respect peoples opinions but you are just wrong my guy
God I love ffxv's party and how close they are. You can FEEL the stress put on them when shit hits the fan, and even characters that have known each others for less time (Prompto comes to mind) still have a great balance with the others. I just love the animations where Prom helps Ignis while Gladio and Noct have a more... Sad, distant approach to it all.
That's probably why I like FeMC more than MC in persona 3, too.
The Trails series and more specifically the Trails in the Sky trilogy has some of my favorite character interactions in RPGs, they’re so well written
Sky have amazing character interaction. Not just party members.
Sadly its not entirely true for Cold Steel. There are some good dynamics but the big cast really shows its toll imo.
I like 4's Act 1 because its just the new Class 7 unlike 3 where we pendulum from new to old Class 7
Trails in the Sky FC is particularly good at this, and I think a lot of that is down to how in each arc the set party members are decided by the needs of the plot, not the player. Other characters from previous arcs go off and do their own things which keeps them feeling like believable people with their own goals, and you still have the core duo of Estelle and Joshua throughout for some mechanical consistency. I wish the subsequent game had kept this system, because with a standard, interchangeable it falls into the whole problem of the character moments also feeling interchangeable.
I am currently playing Trails from Zero (the first Crossbell game) and I agree with this. I finished the sky trilogy, and Sky SC is one of the most amazing games I've ever played. The first Crossbell game has lots of new characters, but some very old, very familiar characters from the sky trilogy do come back. Zero has Estelle, Joshua, Anton (the sky NPC who is perpetually looking to get married), Renne, Killika (the former secretary at the Zeiss Bracer Guild), and has multiple moments where characters make direct references to what happened in the sky trilogy. I haven't gotten far enough yet to meet up with Olivier and Kloe, but I know they're both coming.
That's what makes a good character, for me, when I feel like I know these people. Hell, I can even remember all the whacky hijinks of Anton's perpetual quest to find a wife, and then, when I'm in the middle of chapter 3 of zero, and I get a card signed "Phantom Thief B", I just think to myself: "oh no, not this bastard again." That's good characterization, when just the name showing up makes me FEEL something.
@@fjhatsu You mean every female character wanting to bang Rean isn't a good party dynamic? Seriously though, the Harem Elements of Cold Steel really started to get on my nerves. The only thing that got on my nerves more was the lack of teeth in the story.
@@PedroSteckecilo ColdSteel's character interaction is a complete mess. They made a Bonding System/DatSim game and a ''Canon Harem'' in the same storyline. Rean shows his love side of him but five minutes later start acting like a dense character. That's ruin the immersion and the character's coherence at the same time.
I like DatSim (especially in games where I hate the ''main heroine/first heroine'' like Coldsteel) and I think this mechanic could really works for ToCS's game design (removing the entire Harem Elements from the main story but keeping the ''special moments'' to create a better romance immersion would be a lot better) but I still wanted to see a better ''interaction'' between the characters and a better story of course cause that Curse Bullshit ruined everything.
And a ''New Class VII'' is even more idiot considering the lack of a good arc for every ''Old Class VII members''.
One thing that octopath does really well is the background storytelling, Is true, the interactions between characthers are varely anything to point out, But The key elements on everyone story is connected in some way or another.
I can't help but wonder if Octopath would have worked better had it instead been done as a Live-la-live style affair with 8 mini-RPGs, each with their own 1-3 person party, using the same core mechanics but having their own spin on them. But then the path action system wouldn't have worked nearly as well.
@@Stephen-Fox I think the whole idea of Octopath is an example of failed innovation. It doesn't even sound like a good idea on paper since it sacrifices so many other aspects that make JRPGs great. It's good to innovate but I've always felt that one of Square Enix's biggest flaws is that their "innovations" often simply suck. FFVIII and games like I Am Setsuna are also examples. The former because the junction system was too convoluted and the latter because ATB mixed with tactical positioning is just too much to do given the time constraint. Also, Parasite Eve's battle system is just REALLY tedious when you have like one party member and have to wait for ATB. Also it just doesn't feel very engaging. On a related note, the break system in Octopath SEEMS like a good idea..... until you realize that it makes normal encounters longer than LITERAL BOSS FIGHTS in some games. And not a Square Enix game but I'd like to take a moment to complain about how convoluted and badly explained Xenoblade 2's combat system is. Like I didn't know shit about why random encounters took forever or about the pseudo gacha system.
I mean, _sometimes_ they get it right. In particular, I loved FFVII's materia system, as much as it diminished the specific roles of party members by allowing any party member to fit any role I kinda enjoyed using it regardless. I forgot what I took into consideration when choosing my party composition though, but by the endgame I mostly rocked Cloud, Red XIII, and Cid.
Mass Effect didn’t just place generic characters to fill holes, the characters they replaced to fill gaps were very fleshed out, but unfortunately people seldom got to meet them as a lot of players were meticulous about saving everyone they could or reloading.
Another great example is Dragon Age Origins, not everyone could die willy-nilly but characters could go in different directions and change the story. I worked on how to maintain those save states and mapping them into future games at BioWare and the scope of doing things like that was even larger than I suspected initially, and I suspected it was going to be damn near impossible. Temporal dependencies are something that’s is often overlooked in open world games and was a source of huge complexity in BioWare games due to the ability to do different adventures in different orders - it’s not something people actively notice but in a lot of BioWare games you can do whole sections of the game in different orders with different access to party members and at different points in their development... there is a lot of work that goes into keeping those issues cohesive.
Persona 2 and Digital Devil Saga has to be some of my favorite and most well developed parties in games I have ever experienced. Especially with just hoe well interconnected they are.
God yes DDS love is always appreciated. Such a fantastic duology. Gives me very high hopes for P2, knowing both duologies had Tadashi Satomi behind their scripts.
I feel Tales of the abyss has one of the best party dynamics where each character has a connection to each other's story and its enhanced since the main villan team is similarly connected to each character.
And they're also a group of strangers that almost immediately disbands once their need to travel together ends. Seeing them slowly get used to (and appreciate) one another was cool. Guy is one of the biggest bros I've ever seen in a videogame.
@@RicochetForce exactly i especially love that as the game goes on more stuff is revealed about each character and you see their relationships with each other evolve so no character loses relevance thats why I think games need to have smaller partys
@@austincain9507 Yup, the cast is moderately sized but no one feels neglected at all. There's even lots of interaction from characters that are worlds apart (like Jade & Natalia) that are always fun to see.
"It's not all about the ships."
woah, Woah, WOAH! Let's not say anything you'll regret.
Maritime craftsmanship is serious business.
I don't really care about shipping either and- hey, can anyone else hear an ominous rendition of The Wellerman coming up the stairs?
I love the party dinamics of braverly default, all of them have a distinc personality and all of them interrelates pretty well with each other, and you pick them at the early stage of the game.
Also the mechanics of the job change with the asteriscs helps making a dynamic and adaptable team battle party without changing the party members.
I started playing octopath traveler with the merchant, who hates thieves and her first quest revolves around getting stolen things back from her city.
The third character I recruited was a thief who wanted to steal from a mansion just cause he wanted to be the best thief (no robinhood-like or vengeance justification or anyting), and the merchant just goes with him and helps, no questions asked.
Dropped the game instantly
"Each party member needs their own time in the spotlight, but also needs to stay relevant."
*Shows Haru's Related Palace*
I still shed a tear to this day.
can’t shed a tear for someone you don’t know enough about!
You showed a few Tales clips but I wish you had talked about the skits in the series. Skits provide so much interaction between party members between talking about the actual plot to silly banter. It's the one thing that keeps me coming back to the series as skits give me that feeling that the party members are actually a party and get along and joke around. Star Ocean does a similar thing with its private actions.
Contrast this with DQXI, where I felt the party members weren't a group at all. You could almost split them into separate groups: the Hero and Erik, Serena and Veronica, Rab and Jade, and Sylvando. While each party member did have their own arc, the party barely interacted as a whole. I understand that's just how the DQ games are, but it made me care a lot less about the characters in the game since they hardly seemed to care about each other.
The strong part of DQXI I think was that their characters are very well written, the dynamics may not be so well done, but each character has a remarkable personality and development, I loved how Veronica was just being herself with everyone, her jokes and dialogues and sassiness... And then she's gone and I cried, although that scenes proves that the dynamics are not the strong point, because only Serena gives her hair and mourn her (well and you are also sad). But I loved the dynamics between Hero and Erik (ship them hard), and Erik was my favorite character, so... Also Sylvando I love him, each time I saw him I was smiling, he reminds me of a friend of mine
I always liked the dynamics around the Tales party members. It's usually due to the skits for the occasional side conversations they have when travelling around. I've found them the perfect way to characterize party members without having an entire loyalty mission set up for each character
With the way each Deltarune chapter is going, it seems like it's on it's way to be a shining example of enjoyable RPG party dynamics.
Ralsei is the one who knows all the lore and is the walking hug dispenser of the group, Susie is mean and rough but is slowly learning to be nice, and Noelle is a sweetheart who has no idea how the Dark World works but is trying her best.
Even characters who, in gameplay terms, aren't part of the party act like members. (Lancer, and more recently Berdly)
Lancer's Susie's best friend, and causes her to openly show empathy for the first time when he turns to stone. Berdly starts out an annoyance but over time becomes an ally and comedic relief.
Damn, Toby really knows how to make RPGs.
Ralsei, not Asriel.
@@characookie241 dang how did this comment exist for a whole year without anyone correcting that. Thx!
Ive been looking for articles about just this subject. Like you mentioned, FFX has what all great parties need, having characters as a proxy for larger factions in the world. My favorite RPG trope is 'group of diverse characters who should be enemies become best friends and fight the whole damn world'. And at some point in a game visiting an important part of someone's backstory, like Barrett in Corel Prison, or Frog vs Magus, those magical character moments that make these games worth remembering.
While its status as an RPG is debatable, Paper Mario: The Origami King had an interesting twist to the partner system. Mario gets Olivia right off the back who gets to be relevant throughout the whole story and gets a bit more fleshed out, but every major story beat gives you a new temporary ally that gets their time in the spotlight before the story moves on. They manage to make an impact and do their part, then make way for another character later on to do the same. So at least they avoid the characters being present but not contributing. Bobby's a real one.
Persona 3 cast does this well. The cast feels somewhat disconnected at first, since they don't all know each other but are forced to work together, but they all have ties to each other. Junpei and Yukari are friends, Mitsuru and Akihiko are friends, Ken and Shinji know each other, and aigis has ties to the MC as well as Mitsuru. Fuuka is kind of the odd one out, but she's not particularly disconnected either. What really sells this dynamic though is how during the 100+ hours of the game, more connections develop and by the end, the cast ends up feeling like they really developed over time.
Personally i prefer p4's cast because they are much more connected
@@raidev_ I get that, but it doesn't feel like they grow that much as a team because they are basically just friends from start to finish
Wild Arms 3 does a great job at integrating the evolving party dynamic via gameplay. Gallows is a lazy slacker but he has training in magic. Initially he's a tanky character whose normal attacks are pretty good, but as the game goes on, his gun isn't nearly as useful for combat as anyone else's. But he has the best magic stats. As his story has him come into his own and gain confidence for his family history, you witness him become your magic MVP. Jet is an all-around party member who can do anything, which suits his lone wolf nature. But that also means he doesn't specialize in anything. As the game progresses, Jet becomes a character who you use with the party to support where the others can't, and in his own arc he is still moody but has embraced them as his comrades. Clive is a more mature adult whose arc is fairly short but that also is reflected in his gameplay. He's always your heavy hitting, slow tank. As you get more mediums, Clive's best use doesn't really change much. But that's because he is the responsible, well-adjusted member of the team. He doesn't really need to change. And then there's the main character, Virginia, who is frail, not very strong, but she is extremely fast, fast enough to go first against even bosses. She is adaptable, always able to keep your party healthy (she has the best means of AOE healing tied to an ability Gallows can't access). Being able to count on Virginia going first makes her a super flexible party member even if she needs everyone else for damage, tanking, magic, etc. which does well to emphasize her character as the group's leader due to her mental fortitude.
Wild ARMS pretty much always has good character interaction and development. One of my favorite series. At least until you reach 4/5. Which are less awesome. Lol. But that is an amazing observation about 3. I never considered it before, but it fits. The game doesn't beat you over the head with it, either, it's all in the feel of things. Very natural feeling.
Ever heard of radiant historia?
It's about time travel.
It has has 7 party members, but only 3 can be used in battle and depending on where you are in the timeline you won't be able to use them.
The first 6 are integral to the story and actively determine events in the game, while the last one is uhhh... just there to forward the plot once.
It also doesn't help that in battle he doesn't really synergize with anyone.
My main takeaway from this character is to not force a character archetype in the main party when the story nor other characters really benefit from it
Strange; that game sounds like Chrono Trigger, except the final character is a secret, and not in the party for plot.
@@Soumein Oh yeah. You're right
the mario and luigi rpg's are great for using the mario bros as a strong comedy duo and the party chemistry is especially good because of the bros moves you can use in battle, so its kind of affected by the gameplay
the whole battle system itself in those games is good for making them feel like a real team
This is helpful for writing, but can you also do an episode about mechanical chemistry- how party members synergize in combat to allow for interesting gameplay situations? The way a party is built is important to the structure of the entire game, so it would make a good topic for analysis.
Can't believe the Suikoden series shown but not discussed, those games party dinamics deserve a video of their own, not only do you have a huge cast but most of them have their own motivation and part to play in the main story and there really is enough main story characters that it doesn't really matter that a lot of the optinal ones are pretty shallow, you even have groups that already know each other that can perform special unite attacks
In my opinion bug fables has one of if not the best party dynamic both in gameplay and in the story
I’m surprised I’m not seeing nearly as much love for the Mass Effect party as I thought I would in these comments. It’s probably one of if not the best written party out there
Also I gotta disagree with how the video talks about their deaths. Someone dying does a lot more than just replace or skip people, like how the krogan and Eve will be entirely different if Wreav is in charge, or how Kirrahe will become a bigger character again if Thane can’t carry out his mission of protection. Things like Miranda not being there being the only way for her father to survive, or getting a ton more character development for Raan and the other admirals since Tali isn’t there to support peace. The only one where someone dies and is simply replaced is Legion, which makes sense since they are a collective intelligence that tried to replicate him based on his prior experiences. There are a ton of consequences for most things in Mass Effect, deaths especially. It’s one of the things that make the trilogy one of the best games of all time
This sort of thing is the key virtue of Tales of Xillia, I find. It's why I wound up invested in that particular entry of that franchise over any other game in the series.
Final fantasy 15 really did this the best out of any game I have played. It was truly the little things like prompto taking the strangest pictures inaginable, to gladio getting mad and saying “watch where you’re going!” when you would attack him with no enemies around that made the whole experience memorable.
I barely followed the plot and kind of just went to point marker and did x thing, but really what made that game so enjoyable was the party dynamic. It reeled you into feeling like you were the main character and made it feel immersive despite all of the game’s flaws.
OMG, I know it was just a short clip but thank you for including Wild Arms 3! I love that game and very rarely anyone I talk to have heard of it
Great video.
I also think it's useful to connect all the party members thematically. For instance, all of the Returners in FF6 are linked through the idea of healing after a great loss.
Man, been following your content for well over a year now. Can't believe this channel hasn't blown up! Love your work
“Tales of” first comes to mind
Omori is a great example of a good party.
Everyone is so meaningful and important to the plot somehow, it's amazing.
That game has the best-written characters I've ever seen. Seeing how much Aubrey changed after 4 years really hurt. I wish I had a friend like Kel in real life.
I love the Wild Arms 3 mention in 9:44! Not a lot of people know about the JRPG and I really love their dynamic so much
I love that you included the Highland Village theme from Okage in your intro! It's such a great song, and I love seeing the appreciation!
I will say that I've always enjoyed the banter and storyarcs in the Tales of.. games. Symphonia was my gateway into it but Abyss, Vesperia and especially Berseria all grabbed me with how the party play among each other, both in combat and outside. The over-arching stories are usually good to show most sides of the characters, but the side-quests and various smaller interactions in the skits are interaction gold.
It's even part of the gameplay in Tales of Innocence
You showed Suikoden 2. And as the law of the universe dictates, you must now make a video on it!
Impossible
Another one of my favorite partys is the party fro persona 3. Compared to 4 and 5s partys i like how the characters in 3 clearly have a life outside of the main character with each of them going to different clubs and hanging out with each other outside of cutscences also the fact the each of them evolve there persona with out the main characters help really pushes them forward. I also think that living with them and seeing how at the beginning of the game every ones pretty indifferent to each other really helps you see them grow compared to 4 and 5 were everyone's best friends from the moment they join the party
Since you showed it, I want to mention Wild Arms 3 here.
In terms of party dynamics for battles, you see where each character shines. As for their chemistry, you see it build from complete strangers to a tight knit group of allies, all with a common goal to accomplish.
one key question for a party as well is to ask why is this character here in the group. Sometimes its that they get swept up into the larger conflict (usually the protagonist from a small town) other times they are just like yea sure I'll come with. The party in FF12 is interesting to look at. Vaan and Penelo have zero reason to be in the plot, other than Vaan being the protagonist allows him and us the audience to learn about events as they come. Balthier is a better choice for the leading man, as he calls himself, but since he knows about the world already and specific events and characters it would have been trickier to write I suppose.
Also have to consider in the party who is the protagonist and who is the main character since they are not necessarily the same. The protagonist is our main player character, and it can shift as the story goes on, but the main character is the one who's motivations drives the plot forward. For instance FF10 and FF12, Vaan and Tidus are the protagonists since we play as them and start off the game as them but Ashe and Yuna are the main characters since they're the ones with the quest off to quest it. FF15 Noctis is both the protagonist and main character.
good point on the second paragraph. The writing made the dinamic work in ff10 but not on 12. My guess is that Vaan doesnt get enough development as a character and doesnt end up having an important part in guiding the story/making decisions. thoughts?
@@goncaloferreira6429 I agree. Vaan's character is basically just reacting to things or being there so we can be told things. Like beyond the whole Bashe's twin brother killed Vaan's brother plot line he really doesn't have anything to do. Also there's a great gag in RABtoons FF12 in a Nutshell video where Penelo is just a cardboard cutout in the background of various scenes since she serves no purpose
Might be a weird favorite, but I love Final Fantasy XIV's "party", The Scions of the Seventh Dawn. You don't really get to go through dungeons and raids with them (at least until Shadowbringers), since you do those with other players. But there are times where you play with them in solo instances, or even as them. They are some of the most well-written and lovable RPG characters I've ever seen.
I agree... except there are a couple wasted ones. The remaining ones we have now are great, but Papalymo was forgettable despite being a core member.
@@diersteinjulien6773 I think they're still fIguring out how to do characterization in the early days so there's a lot of missed opportunities, unfortunately.
This is my absolute FAVORITE thing to discuss when it comes to game design! My dad and I were just discussing the dynamics of Final Fantasy casts the other day, but I have to say, I think the first four in FF9 (Zidane, Dagger, Vivi, Steiner) have one of the best dynamics ever seen. Too bad the rest of the cast feels half-baked (looking at you, Amarant...). I'd also give Dragon Age II and Tales of Xillia a shoutout for how tightly their groups intertwine, for both good and bad. Thank you for making this for all of us - watching it was a wonderful use of my Memorial Day ❤
I just found your channel recently and it's pretty good as an go to tutorial on several game design choice!
I also want you to have a thought more deeper on Suikoden II where the characters have numerous number, 108 to be exact but you still have decent connection with each of primary party member. It also add some spices and mini-story by having the random party member, though they didn't really affecting that much to the entire game.
I would like to see a follow-up video about parties mechanically. How diverse do you make the different characters?
I fully agree with what you've said about Bug Fables. The main characters' interactions in that game are amazing and way better than anything Paper Mario has ever done! Though, to Paper Mario's credit, the way Origami King handles partner stories is very interesting.
I’ve been working on an RPG with my brother, and this is really handy for me since I’m doing the writing! Thanks for the video!
The song at the end of the video reminded me of something i quite liked about Tales of Symphonia.
While not all characters get the same degree of attention on the plot (either because they joined late or their tale is a tad shorter), I really enjoyed the skits that we'd get by pressing Z on the overworld. It would show the character portraits and have dialog between them, showing off traits of their personality or how they reacted to event A or B. It also allowed for a lot more interactions between different characters that didn't really get to talk much to each other during cutscenes. At the time it felt like a really nice way of embracing the party as a whole rather than "two/three main characters plus a bunch of tag-alongs"
To this day, I consider FFVII to be the gold standard for the "pacing" aspect here. Most of the members get a scene to get them into the party to help introduce them, and they all get a (sometimes optional) scene in disk 2/3 to conclude their arc. Some characters are forced into the party once in a while, and the game doesn't waste that opportunity to develop them when they do. Most of the time you're free to select which two accompany Cloud at any given time, so you'll hear more dialog from the team members you like; with a portion of that dialog not being generic like the Chrono Cross example.
In addition, there are quite a few scenes where the main plot stops to bring the party together as a whole to have a conversation and share their views and insights about what is happening. These include the haunted hotel in the gold saucer, near the crater at the end of disk 1, numerous scenes on the Highwind, Cosmo Canyon a couple of times, etc. This makes sure that even party members you've been neglecting still get to infrequently chirp in and remind you they exist.
This is pacing as opposed to something like Paper Mario. When a companion's personal quest is completed, and they join the party, they essentially stop being relevant as a character. The spotlight hovers over them once, and then not really anymore after that. As the video said, they turn into glorified items.
You know what would be a good companion piece to this? Designing for party balance with characters that are designed to specialize in what they do and how to keep one character form becoming basically mandatory (either by being overpowered or being the only good option for a specific role).
This channel just hit my algorithm and I've been enjoying it so far.
I put so many hours in FFXV precisely because of the party dynamic, I was always searching for that next bit of banter or that next version of the various hotel/camper/camping site scene. I honestly had a ton of fun.
Nier deserved a mention, OMORI also has an excellent party.
On the topic of keeping the party members engaged and relevant with the main plot, I'm going to have to mention Persona and its Social Links. And... not in a positive manner. Keep in mind that these are just my own personal feelings on the matter, and not some end-all-be-all objective judgment on the character writing in the series. I also drop some spoilers for the games P3-5 later down in the comment, so read at your own risk.
While the Social Link system works well as a gameplay mechanic and gives us some interesting side-characters to interact and spend time with, I feel that Social Links somewhat hurt the main cast. But how could that be? After all, Party Member Social Links give you tons of interactions with your closest friends, adding in some great character development THAT MEANS DIDDLY SQUAT TO THE MAIN PLOT. In Persona 4&5, all of your party members' development (with the exception of the mascot characters, Teddie and Morgana) after their personal story arc is straight-up sidelined into their social links, and never affect their actions and thoughts during the main plot of the game. This results in the characters feeling somewhat one-note in the actual story scenes and having very little relevance or connection to the plot.
Yusuke in P5 is probably one of the most damning examples - after the Madarame arc, he has zero personal stakes or investment in the Phantom Thieves' actions, only showing up in group scenes to state the obvious or make an art reference. Whenever the team discusses their next plans, all you hear from him is "If everybody else wants to do this, I'm in too". Really, the only reason I can see why he doesn't quit the Phantom Thieves is because he straight-up can't go back to living a life of normalcy now that he is a Persona user - that and he doesn't want to lose contact with what appear to be his only friends. Some other characters suffer from similar situations (Yukiko, Kanji, Makoto and Haru come to mind), but even the ones that do have personal stakes or investment (Yosuke, Naoto, Futaba) still suffer from the symptoms of being very static in the main plot and only showing their hidden depths inside their social links, never to resurface past Rank 10.
On the other hand, I'll have to hand it to Persona 3 for, admittedly, doing what almost every other RPG does and tying its characters' development to the story rather than to some optional side-arc that can be skipped or postponed until lategame. There are Party Member Social Links in that game, too, but they moreso exist to tell side-stories than carry the main development of the character. Yukari grappling with the truth about her father, Junpei's tragic romance, Ken's bloody revenge... all of this occurs in the main plot, and the characters are no longer the same people they were before their personal story climaxes. The mascot Social Links in P4&5, on the other hand, are just weird when it comes to all this. Teddie and Morgana grow and develop over the course of the entire game due to their Social Links being tied to story events rather than the calendar, but Teddie in particular is prone to the same problem that I mentioned earlier - where you would have a pretty impactful Social Link moment with him that marks a significant milestone in his search for what makes him "him" and makes you appreciate him as a character, and then fifteen minutes later he's back to being the wacky comic relief pervert in a wacky comic relief cutscene.
Anyways, that's enough rambling about my personal grievances. I don't think Social Links are inherently flawed or should be removed from the series - goodness, no - but I feel they could be integrated better within the main plot so that the characters don't feel like there are two versions of them - a static main plot version and a steadily developing Social Link version.
I see what you mean. The separation between social links and the main plot can be jarring.
7:27 that was the last thing I expected to read in a snow leopard's speech bubble and it was stupidly funny
I'm just happy to see Tales of Symphonia and Vesperia in this video. Love those games, especially the party. The skit system really help flesh some characters out while you play the game.
Edit: What I really like about the skits in Tales is that they are optional, you almost never have to see them. Some of them have the characters talking about something that just happened, or it could be about some other thing you've done outside the main plot, like how one character's a terrible cook or how you've improved you skills. What ever it is about, it helps build the party up and flesh them out. It's one of the aspects that makes Tales the series it is.
The reason I got hooked on the fire emblem franchise is because I fell in love with the cast in Awakening. I replayed it 5 times specifically to unlock every non marriage/child exclusive support
I've actually thought about that Paper Mario vs Bug Fables thing for a while now. It took me a while to admit it to myself since I love Paper Mario, but I ended up loving the party in Bug Fables way more than the partners in paper mario because the Bugs had much longer and more interconnected stories that lasted for the entire game, instead of having smaller more contained stories that are quickly forgotton.
I think that when people say that they want partners back in Paper Mario, I think that's just a surface level observation. What I think we really want is actual characters with real stories and interactions. Even if it means not getting a new party member with every chapter. I mean hell just look at the Mario and Luigi RPGs. They didn't have any partners like paper mario but their stories were way more interesting and they had a ton of fun side characters that they could bounce off of despite being silent protagonists.
So basically, Bug Fables is objectively superior to Thousand Year Door come fite me
Great video! I think you would've commented on the gameplay side of things; how party members tend to cover each other's weaknesses, something like the support capitalizing on the the tank's defenses or the DPS's damage so that they'd be protected, consequently having more options to help the party which, in turn, would make the job of protecting easier, how row/formations systems affect this, planning ahead for covering elemental weaknesses and strengths, stuff like that.
This exact thing is one of the reasons I loved playing through Persona 4. It just felt like you were in on all the inside jokes and group dynamics of this bunch of friends going through some weird shit. It was really fun to play out a role in an entirely different scenario and with a completely different group of people. Persona's "slice-of-life-ness" mechanics and format really emphasize characterization through showing how all the characters go through life and whatever the story has to throw at them.
Bug Fables looks so cute! I'm gonna buy it tomorrow. Never heard of it before.
I hope you love it as much as I did!!! ,100%ed it and still wanted more ahahahahhaha. Its really really really fun
I hope you enjoy really annoying puzzles! *I'm looking at you with deep hatred Beemerang*
@@PedroSteckecilo the platforming and puzzles aren’t too good but everything else is amazing