The Fender Princeton: A Short History
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The Fender Princeton: A Short History
I repaired the copyright issue by cutting the references to Larry Carlton's use of a Princeton. Which might take care of the controversy as well.
Thanks for understanding.
Keith
This is a follow up to my video on The Fender Champ, also "A Short History". A basic premise of the channel is that we can likely be doing all we need with much less wattage and at much lower volume, than we have in the past. I type this with the tinnitus that any self-respecting, gigging musician has, ringing away in my ears.
But more than an issue of volume, I've become fascinated with the concept of "enough". A concept that seems almost alien in our fast moving consumer culture.
So if you've started to wonder "what is enough" too. Then think about subbing to five watt world. That's the ride we're on.
Best,
Keith
This is from Larry Carlton’s cousin Steve when I asked him about Larry’s set up for Kid Charlemagne “Yes it was a 1972 Princeton Reverb amp, modified by Paul Rivera when he worked at Valley Arts Guitar. It was a "stage 1" mod, which only increased signal to noise.
And of course, Larry played his 1969 ES-335 with Ernie Ball Super Slinky's.” He should know. He was there.
Fab info, Uncle Rick
Well who is right then? Larry's cousin or Larry himself? Larry himself claim, that it was a Tweed Deluxe on ALL Steely Dan cuts including the night fly record. Larry only brought the tweed amp for those dates, but would normally use either his Rivera amp or an old Marshall with Dynacomp in front of i on normal dates.
@@cockcockson7965 Yeh. Here's the video where he talks about that very amp. The 5E3 is about 13:00
th-cam.com/video/rcfZwva-v64/w-d-xo.html
it was his tweed deluxe 13:45 in this interview www.premierguitar.com/articles/21081-rig-rundown-larry-carlton
Search for Jay Graydon and Rivera on youtube, and you'll find all the information on the mod Paul did to Fender amps. But again it is not a Princeton Larry played, but a Fender Tweed amp on The Royal Scam record.
Wanted to let you know, that your soothing style of these talks helped me through very dark times, and I didn't commit suicide last year. So thanks for the help.
Good It's Not Worth it. Just in Case you Would Have to Come Back Do it All over.
Hope your doing well
Good on you for forgoing the suicide what a difference a day makes!
Brother, you are loved, even if you can’t tell or can’t feel it. I love you
Lmao 💀
Looks amazing Hypes!! Great video dude!
Thanks Hypes!
Is this an alternative universe - or a textbook case of cross-pollination? I'm a BIG fan of your videos, Rick - I watch them compulsively. Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge, great insights, and tasty production - not to mention impressive chops. Long may you run!
FlamQ Dbltap Thanks FlamQ.
@@fivewattworld apart the facts are not right..
This is great. Still have my 69 my mom bought me new when I was a kid!!!
Sweet!
Same here only 77
I literally started weeping seeing that last Tom Petty clip. Back in the day I was sure he would outlast The Rolling Stones.
I think we need a national Tom Petty Day. Who's with me???
Count me in Randy. Where do I sign the petition?
You be leading us fiver .
Oh yeah! Tom Petty was a one-hundred-percent-real-deal rocker with a badass band like everyone wants to be when they start out. And what a songwriter. If you had to explain Rock 'n' Roll to aliens, you could just show them the video of a Tom Petty concert.
I know what you mean man....
Tom Petty, Ric Ocasek and Eddie Money. This is really devastating for me. 😢
I've known for almost as long as I've owned it that the Stratocaster I bought at a flea market years ago was made in April 1965. Only a couple of years ago, however, did I discover that my old Princeton Reverb was also made in April of 1965. It's kind of cool to think they could have been on the loading dock at the same time.
Match made in Heaven there....I have a 65 Strat as well but my Princeton is a 61 The 65's are the best...I had a 58 too so I know a little about Strats
Especially when I was born April 10 1965..haha They should belong to me...You lucky bastard.
I’m going to the wrong gall dang flea markets.
As I recall Mesa/Boogie started as modded Princetons.
They were built in Princeton cabs on Princeton chassis but no stock anything was used beyond that. The Boogie only works because Randy had enough RF experience to tweak it and so it's very tough to build a Boogie clone. After you've built and debugged a few tube transmitters it's worth a try, but remember the schematics have deliberate errors so you'll need an actual amp to copy off. Dumble is really not a trained electronics guy in any sense so he had to build something he could make work and consequently it's easier to build a Dumble clone than a Mesa clone. Life is funny that way.
The Princeton Reverb is one of the best clean tone amps around. The small package is what makes this amp a big choice for my at home playing
I miss Tom Petty. True gentleman and brilliant musician.
I have Princeton Reverb Reissue. Great little amp that I gig with exclusively. Looking to find a silverface I can afford. Thanks for another awesome video!
You never really realized how awesome a Princeton is until you traded or sold your awesome Princeton.
I couldn't have said it better. I sold my 1970 in the 90's and took me to this year but I found a 69 drip rail
Jim Campilongo is a Major Princeton user!
Mike Campbell mikes his little amps and sends them through the PA and the monitors, so he's relying on them for tone, not stage volume, which would be ridiculously inadequate. That said, a friend of mine has relied on a silverface PR modded with a very efficient 12" EV speaker, and that sucker is indeed loud. That high efficiency 12" speaker goes a long way.
Of course, but I understand from interviews that Mike also has used a PR as his stage monitor, use to have one in front of him sending the guitar tone back.
And totally agree on the 12" mod for gigging. You can buy a lot of virtual headroom by using a more efficient 12 and not needing to turn up as much.
@@fivewattworld Allen beefed up tranny helps make it louder too. That and a DR output tranny. I say stick with a 10" speaker tho or just buy a deluxe.
Great video Kevin! I don’t own a Princeton, but my Princeton story goes like this. I’m a child of 80’s guitar, especially EVH, use a Charvel Guthrie Govan and an Axe FX II for all my gigs. The bartender at Reggie’s in Chicago goes “Johnny, you don’t need all this, all you need is a Tele and a Princeton.” I worked at CME at the time so being a wise guy, I borrowed a vintage Princeton and Tele from the shop. I showed up to the following week’s gig with that and a Butler overdrive. He was right.
Good story. Welcome to five watt world.
Keith
🏡👦 He’s home alone!
"Keith!"
@@shaft9000I wish I had video from that night. With my Axe Fx, I can get a pretty close VH I tone with the obligatory Phase 90. But I think that’s the point. Without all that, what can you make it sound like? With your hands and a little overdrive, it’s more possible than you’d realize.
Lmao love Reggies
I am catching up on FWW vids. How cool this is. It's like memory lane. Had a nice '67 Princeton at one time. "Had" being the operative word. My uncle "fixed" it for me once. Shocked the hell out of me whenever I touched my strings. Thanks uncle Dave. Dork. I got a cool permed mullet out of it though.
I love Princetons but I wonder why a Deluxe Hot Rod with 40 watts is much cheaper.
You forgot to mention the many thousands of dollars worth of reinforcement apparatus in line after mic’ing Mike’s amps. Which is what makes stadium gigs with a Princeton possible.
Yes. But more like hundreds of thousands of dollars (US)! The mixing consoles alone can exceed 100G's!
But true; with the audio systems of the past couple of decades you could do fine being heard using a pignose practice amp.
*(I said, "heard". I didn't say anything about sounding good.)
:-)
Even in club gigs, a little Gibson GA5 w/8" speaker can be mic-ed up and added to the house mix and monitors. It actually blends better that way too.
BUT - there's a natural symbiosis, a circular partnership that happens when the amp is directly feeding back (not feedback) into the chest and heart of the guitarist that just doesn't translate as well through the monitors - definitely not through the in-ears.
We need a bit more 'umph' to get that going just right.
I own a '68 PR, '74 DR, '73 VR, '71 Pro Reverb, and '75 Twin Reverb. I love them all. However, for raw tone and recording the Princeton Reverb is just the best, IMO. However, I've struggled like crazy trying to use it on stage with a full band. There's more to it than just volume. I HAVE to have some amount of clean headroom to enjoy myself and play like I want to play. A couple PRs - a la Mike Campbell - lend much better to big, jangly chording and soloing, and of course he's going to have the benefit of world-class stage monitoring. But in clubs with tight stages, drum kits crammed up next to the guitar amp, with the bass rig on the other side - I just haven't been able to make the PR work. That's why it's so great to have the larger Fender amps.
Doesn't Mike C. say "reverb" at the beginning when asked to name his favorite amp? But he used non reverbs?
I think that was a toss to the guys at "Reverb" that were doing the interview. :)
If a Princeton isn't loud enough, your band is too loud?
Only if you're playing classic rock lol
I have to keep mine on 2.5 through the second input and it's still too loud for my apartment.
@@thesoundchekguy If a Princeton at 2.5 is too loud, perhaps a torpedo, suhr RL, or going full digital?
I specifically chose a (very) small house to rent instead of an apartment for this reason. Even still built one of the closets into an isolation booth, in case I need to *really* crank up either of my tube amps. (a Larry Grohmann Dino and a 93 Matchless Clubman)
Reviewers need to stop referencing bar gig volume and start referencing basement show volume for amps
I miss my Silverface 70's Princeton Reverb. Had to sell it to pay tuition for college in 78. Was plenty loud enough for my level of play at home. Miss my strat as well. Should have never sold that black strat, but money was tight. Had it set up by Stars guitars in San Francisco back in the day. By the way, with regards to your # of guitars, I view them as works of art, not just a tool. I am a woodworker, so maybe that influences my view.
If you want to really enjoy the awesome tone of '58 Princeton tweed, spin the magical Hoodoo album by Tony Joe White
John Fogerty has an album too with that title but his was never commercially released, I have a bootleg tape of it.
I have a 61 that's probably close circuit wise besides the tremolo I love that thing......lol it loves other speakers IMO .If you have never heard one through a 4/12 You Should Loud too
Spring reverbs were the best - you could jam things into them like glass pill bottles for a ringing sound, or put dampers into them, like tissue paper.
I used to tap the back of my spring case with a drum stick to get psychedelic reverb.
Syd Barrett would have been proud of me.
My first amp was a Fender Princeton Reverb bought for me by my dad about 1969 or 1970. If memory serves it was a blackface (of course, memory doesn't alway serve...) but it's my main "wish I still had it".
Wish you'd have talked about the 80's Prinstons. Prety decent amps.
I wish I still had my ‘77 Princeton. Selling it twenty five yrs ago is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever done.
I have two 66 Princeton Reverbs, one with original speaker that sounds great, 2nd waiting a new Eminence Alessandro speaker I just ordered today. Both going to an amp guy in AZ - Lowell Hunt next week for analysis and tune up! Guess I'll just have to survive on my perfect 1960 Tweed Deluxe until I get these amps back. Life's hard! P.S. Didn't know until today that Kid Charlemagne was recorded on a Princeton. I know Larry used a 1959 Tweed Deluxe to record Don't take me Alive.
Well done video.
The silver face amps didn't use a particle board for the cab. They didn't. Fender fans crap on the latter cabs for them being plywood instead of jointed solid pine cabs. In modern times plywood is usually marketed as a luxury...
The baffles on blackface and silverface were both particleboard though...
Plywood is strong .
Now made from the finest particle board cabinets and printed circuit boards. $$$$$
Best slide sound I ever heard live was a local guy using 2 Fender Rivera Super Champs which would kinda be a Princeton Reverb Jr on steroids but I been thinkin' of down sizing yet again to something like a PR. My Mesa Maverick is great but 30 watts is killin' the cat....
Gigged my Princeton in rock bands for years when I got too lazy to haul bigger amps. It's great, just loud enough to be heard over a loud rock drummer. But at that volume you have no clean headroom. Still made it work, legendary amp
2/12 isn't too bad of a haul....it's a killer set up for a vintage Princeton
As long as your amp is louder than a vocalist, it's loud enough. If you have to stick a mic in front of a vocalist so his or her voice can be heard, then you can also stick a mic in front of an amp, and run both mics through the PA.
depends on the type music you're playing.
@@shaft9000 Why would anyone be gigging outside without a PA? Granted, the Ventures, the Shadows, or some other all instrumental bands might not need a PA since they have no vocalist. But in a really big venue, even the drums need to be mic'd through a PA system. From the perspective of a guitarist, I'm only really concerned with how high the quality of my sound is. The sound engineers are the ones responsible for making sure the audience can hear everything. From an audience member perspective, generally the sound of really loud big amps gets pretty muddy far back from the stage if all the sound isn't run through a well-controlled sound system. Bottom line, going through a well-managed and setup PA system in ANY venue results in better sound. I've walked out of far too many shows where the ego driven lead guitar player was using his Marshall stack to drown out everyone else in the band. Frankly, that sounds like shit.
Just fyi, in some countried, even in the western world, PA systems are extremely expensive and not often bought for a small stage. For example, here in Spain, I have been many places with no PA system or old systems that cant be used for more than keys and vocals. Big amps are still useful, in certain places and at certain times.
@@Whydoyoureadme Please note that I said "IF you have to stick a mic in front of a vocalist so his or her voice can be heard, THEN you can also stick a mic in front of an amp". It's a classic "if-then" statement. If you don't have a PA, then of course you can't mic the small guitar amp. But, you also can't mic the vocalist, so you're stuck playing instrumentals, right?
Princeton Chorus
The new 12” speaker version of the Princeton Reverb fixes the only issue that kept it from being a perfect amp for me. I love the Blackface PR but I’ve never been a 10” speaker guy. I’ve been really tempted by the new reissue , I still am honestly and it wouldn’t be a surprise if one didn’t follow me home sometime lol
Exactly!!
Yes and why they have an ext spk out..... sometimes when recording you want that ten but I prefer 12'as well...I just hooked mine up to a 4/12 Marshall alnico loaded and WoW Gonna try the mid 80's Anniversary half stack next Ceramic 65's Really would like to try 4/10's too
@@paulcowart3174 Recently tried the G12H-75 four of them would be amazing but my fav is the G12H heritage 55hz that is discontinued now
I tend to agree becauseI learned the hard way about music and sound.
My first amp was a Vibro Champ that really went unappreciated until recently. I slowly clawed my way up to a Twin Reverb, and I could put out some loud music.
All the while an old friend was using a Princeton Reverb. When we got together again he asked where my Vibro Champ was, and I told him in cobwebs in the closet, and I set up my Twin Reverb. Pete set up his old Princeton Reverb, that he had back in the early days, and my jaw dropped; he was light years ahead of me on the sound issues. I had always equated louder with better, but Pete was still playing through that old beaten up amplifier and getting a great sound.
I was shamed into digging out the old Vibro Champ. Not by my friend or anything he played, but by my own personal awakening and my former blind, or possibly deaf, ambition regarding the generation of music and sound.
This is why I agree with your statement, "15 watts is the new 50 watts." I didn't need to be louder. I needed better technic with the guitar. To bad I didn't learn this when I was younger, it may have spared a few decibels of hearing along the way.
I agree. I've had Twin Reverbs and a Princeton Reverb. The Princeton sounded better and it was easier to carry. The Twin sounded like a jet plane idling before take off.
I was hoping you were going to mention the 'Rivera-era' Princeton Reverb 2 as I used to have one of those. But I guess you were going for an overview of the classic Princetons so that omission is fair enough. Anyway I'm chasing a '68 re-issue right now so this video is timely.
Ive got a PR2 as well and it's a great little amp! I was hoping for a mention here, but like you said he most likely was focussed on the classic Princetons.
I bought the 65 Princeton Reverb special Sweetwater edition in brown tweed and it is coming today. It has the 12" Cannibis Rex speaker. I really appreciate your work here at five watt world!
do you love it 3 years later now?
@@createlovehappy Hello, I seen your question come up. I sold it a while back. Our church went silent stage and so I have been using modelers straight to FOH. Started with the Quad Cortex and then sold that and bought the Tone Master Pro last January. I am very happy with it and it does sound very good. I like the Princetons in the unit and the 59 Bassman sounds great too.
Just grabbed a Princeton and so obviously came here to scrub up on the history!! Cheers Keith, great vid!
Thanks John.
Nice video! For what it’s worth, my Rivera era “82 Princton Reverb II has been my main gigging amp for almost 20 years.
I have a Princeton Reverb II as well and was wondering why (unless I missed it) it was not in this video.
I used a 82 Princeton Reverb II from 83-2015. Fantastic amps and never a problem. I switched to Orange and like those a little better Super Champs are great too.
I think it is very important and should be mentioned that the first silver faced Princeton reverb in 1968 with the black line grill cloth is not a silver face amp but actually the last of the black face as far as the circuitry. To me the most ideal Princeton reverb amp is the last black face which is the silver face 68.
The first band that I was in back in '67, the guitarist played through a little Princeton. I couldn't believe it. My bass amp was a 15" monster about the size of a half stack. Hey, but he made it work.
HAHA! Mike Campbell, playing huge arenas for Tom Petty, was using a 15-watt amplifier for tone. That's what a good PA with good monitors can do for stage sound nowadays!
Exactly 😊
Now I feel silly for trying to dime my Princeton Reverb in my room. The Pete Townsend story explains why the walls and windows were rattling.
I found my tone a long time ago, when my old AC30 got pissed on by a drunken band mate after a gig (I kid you not lol) & I borrowed an Orange OR120 head from a friend. I fell in love with it, so I scraped, scrounged & begged him till he sold it to me. I still use it for gigs 30 yrs later but I use an Orange Tiny Terror at home (my wife banned me from playing the OR lol. Can't imagine why) & even sometimes for gigs. It's only 15w but it packs a serious punch & played through my 2 Marshall cabs, sounds pretty damn good. Good enough even to make me rethink my opinion of smaller amps. Plus, they're so much more convenient now many venues have great sound systems. Cool vid as always Keith.
Cool! Kid Charlemagne as the backing track! Love it
A friend of mine gave me a Princeton 65 he got in a storage locker auction. I was totally stoked until I realized it was the solid state reissue. But like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. It actually sounds ok considering that they used the cheapest components that you can buy. Tiny circuit board mounted pots with 1/8" plastic shafts, not quality construction. The cabinet is built like a tank though and is gigable
Cool video! It be nice to see a Deluxe Reverb one too!
First amp I ever played through was a m8's dad's blackface Princeton.
The sound and smell of that amp permeates my being...
I love your “history of” series, maybe some vox and epiphone stories?
They’re on the list. Thanks for watching.
I do not like the 12 inch mod because the cab is sonically designed for a 10. I changed the output tubes to EL 84's and put in an output transformer from a Fisher stereo and it sounds great!
Wow. Curious what kind or how old of a Fischer radio ? I've one my father built from a kit when he was a kid.
I've been a longtime Fender black face amp lover, but I recently just came by an all original, 1962 brown face 6G2 Princeton. It's an entirely different beast, but it rivals my Princeton Reverb cline and '67 BF Super Reverb completely. Great vid man!
61 owner here Love it especially with an extension cabinet hooked up
You forgot to mention the 64' Princeton Reverb (first year) did not come with amp logo/badge..
I am glad I discovered this channel. I am mainly a bedroom type player that occasionally records a song, so I don't need a huge amp, and this channel is perfect.
Welcome to five watt world William!
Yeah, I'm in the same category. I have a Tiny Terror combo and a little Joyo Champ clone, but def will be buying a Princeton in a year or so.
Heys Guys, Gals. Less Is More! :)
My princeton is perfect for gigging, recording, and practicing. I want a super reverb though... but I love my 68 princeton reverb...
Good stuff. The non-reverb black/silver Princeton is IMO a friendlier home amp, as you can run it clean at ~4 on the volume for a full sound without annoying anyone. For gigging I might opt for the reverb version for the extra breakup/volume ratio (and the ‘verb too!). Depending on the venue and style of music, of course.
I'm right there with you. I use a Vox AC10 for the reverb in my 12 watt wet/dry rig with a Gibson GA40 clone in a Princeton cab (video to come). The GA40 can do late tweed to Marshall tones and the Vox, well we know what the Voxes do so well. :)
There’s a difference though if the amp is being mic’d and sent to a PA vs the amp by itself just outputting to its internal speaker..band loudness aside, lol.
I just purchased a Princeton 65 reissue and I love it. I got it after seeing Marty Stewart and Kenny Vaughn both playing Telecasters through Princeton's and sounded Amazing!
got to love cousin Kenny
I have 4 Princeton Reverbs and a ‘58 Tweed Princeton, 2 Deluxe Reverbs. They are great amps amongst my other Fenders. My ‘59 Champ is my #1.
Used to own one for nearly 20 years.
A silverface with the pull for boost volume knob. Sweetest amp I've ever had
And now? What are you playing through now?
@@fivewattworld sadly I'm left with a boss br800to use as a preamp and run it through a sony mini hifi. I know I know......
My old timer had to go for cash (900€) for the sake of my son.
Tried a hotrod deluxe once, but that thing was WAAAYYY too loud.
Hopefully I'll be looking for another vintage fender anytime soon. Maybe for the holly grail, a deluxe reverb, that would be nice
The Princeton Reverb blackface has been the most sought after combo amp in Nashville for about three years. That and the Gibson Stereo 79 RTV...
If you see one get one! Brilliant stuff!
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve played through one live every week for 8 years and it’s all the amp I’ll ever need.
I played a Korg BX-3 through a Princeton in the 80s. That combination, with the built-in Leslie effect of the Korg and the warm distortion of the Princeton, was a perfect lightweight alternative to the expense and heft of a real Hammond and Leslie.
I have a PRRI and swapped the speaker for a Celestion Gold 10'' and replaced the baffle by a plywood one I made. This guy followed me around the world and I couldn't ask for a better amp.
Hmmm yeah I'm thinking about getting a gold ten instead of the Weber alnico that in it What is the wattage on the gold ?? Thanks
@@paulcowart3174 40w 8ohm for the Gold 10"
@@IbervilleMusic Hey thanks man Sounds perfect Happy Thanksgiving
@@paulcowart3174 Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones! Cheers!
Nice video. No mention, though, of an obscure iteration of the mighty Princeton: The Princeton Recording Amp, which lasted a few years after Fender first released it in 2005-2006. It has a "rack" mounted below the control plate, offering overdrive, compression and an attenuator to control volume while keeping the tubes cooking. Very unusual. I've had mine since January 2007.
Got a '64 PR that I picked up in Hollywood in the late 70's in mint condition. Still have it and one thing I wondered about was why they didn't put the Fender logo on some of them. The Princeton you show at 0:56 in the video is also sans logo. Any ideas?
Thanks Eric. Still a mystery to me as to why they did that. If I come across info from any old Fender employees, I'll post it. Best regards. (BTW...hold on to that amp!)
My Princeton has no logo. I thought it was because it had a replacement 12" speaker but it seems they jst didn't put a logo badge on them.
@@doitnowvideosyeah5841 '64's didn't have the Fender logo.
I bought a dead mint 64' back in 94 or 95' from Walter's Music Exchange in Austin with the original General Tire Tolex tag for $300!!! a steal even back then. It did not have a logo either. They added them probably in 1965.
I've got a February 65 Princeton Reverb with no Fender badge/logo on the grill cloth.,
Great amps. I have the 64 custom hand-wired version and it is an amazing little amp!
Hey man if you're reading these, I absolutely love the Short History videos you do. It's so hard to find concise histories on all these iconic instruments in one place and you do such a great job putting it all together and keeping it fast and interesting. Thank you!
Thanks John! Yeah, I read all the comments. I’ve been moving but am releasing the next video tomorrow morning.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and thanks for watching the videos.
Keith
@@fivewattworld and that's just one of the many reasons I love this channel. Thank you, Keith! ❤️😎
a great video Keith, I own a vintage 1968 SF Princeton Reverb with a hemp cone 10 inch in her, an amazing amp, even on large stages as you say... it's my goto for most gigs I play. I also own an early 70's SF Vibro-Champ.... another grand winner from Fender, again with a hemp cone 8 inch in her as well.
I must say, I enjoy this channel
Thanks Thomas
@@fivewattworld Just discovered this channel myself. I am quickly warming up to it. Good stuff right here.
i have a couple princetons myself , but the reason that Campbell and Camporlongo can keep up with more powerful counterparts, I would say , is they're miked through a powerful P.A. .....
Of course, but they also provided the stage volume they need. Campbell used a non-reverb Princeton down front as his stage monitor for many years.
I have a '64 non reverb and a '75 reverb model , i love both amps , I actually run the '64 NR > '65 fender reverb unit> 1-12" Eminence ..Originally, I was intrigued about Princeton amps when I read that Randall Smith of Mesa Engineering , heavily modified a Princeton as a prototype for the original Mesa Boogie amp.
He compared a Tweed F511 Vibrolux to a Brown Princeton Chris Stapleton amplifier….interesting to know at 2:35
A fellow I know owned the best guitar store in the city I live in. He retired recently and before that I was speaking to him. He told me the princeton was, in his opinion, the best amp he has ever played. This is a man who has owned pretty much everything and was really into playing. Think about that, access to anything all the time and the princeton was king. I got one in the end. It's the best non high gain amp I've ever played. I'm a convert. Great amp.
Personally, after hearing so many Marshalls, I think the only thing that would satisfy me is a Marshall 50w head(or 2 😁) and a half stack(or 2 😁😁). I absolutely love the sound of a Les Paul or SG straight into a Marshall. ❤️❤️❤️
Petty and Campbell use a lot more amps than Princetons. Like they're guitars they use amps as colors. You could have mentioned the 2 biggest country disciples of Princeton amps, Marty Stuart and Kenny Vaughn. I know Kenny's has been outfitted with an Eminence Red Fang speaker...very hot.
"If your Princeton's not enough (loud) to keep up with the band, then the band is probably too loud".....I'm sorry but....have you ever hear real rock n' roll hard strummin drummers? Try to match that with a Princeton....? Don't make me laugh. And please, please dont't get me wrong....I love little amps and Princeton in particular for what they are....but that's NOT enough VOLUME for a good sounding rock band.
I hear you, but I'm talking about proper PA, and maybe a drummer that is less performing than serving the tune. Sorry but if Beck can do it with Pro Juniors, and Campbell can do it with a pair of 12 watters (mic'd to high heaven no doubt). I'll stick with my statement. And we can respectfully agree to disagree, and I mean that, respectfully. God knows I wouldn't ever want to impose my ideas on someone else any more than I'd want the reverse to be attempted.
Turn up the PA, turn down the stage volume. You'll rock longer, or I should say, you'll hear it longer while you're rocking out.
@@fivewattworld Oh I didn't mean no disrepect here at all. Sorry if my comment sounded like that. I was just tryng to say....not even for playing live in stage w good or bad PA.... take it to a rehearsal enviroment, (wich I did), and well.....to get the drum sounds I like, (and many many many others), is necesary to be played at a certain level....you know what I mean....and a Princeton, wich I love how they sound, is not enough for that SPL. And I really enjoy the video, thank you. Cheers!
Wow, I bought a 1969 Princeton Reverb Amp in 1977 for $300, it was silver face. I bought it with new new 1977 Fender Stratocaster for $325. I sold both about 6 years later for $600. Wish I still had them, who knew?
I have had a now mostly retired 68 Princeton Reverb, for over 40 years. (I paid the original owner $100 for it). Back in the late 70's we used it for keyboards, drums, my guitar, and even vocals when we didn't have a P.A. system. It never failed to meet the challenge. Though I have always loved it, I never dreamed it would be such a coveted item.
I've a 69 for 25 years cost $400.
With all that and the math I still can't play like Jerry Garcia.
Well she was an American girl...
I wanted so badly to like the 68 reissue I bought, but the super cheap speaker baffle rattled like a fat hooker on a cold night. I tried tightening everything, but nothing worked. There are tons of videos on how to reinforce the baffle, but after spending $900 on an amp I wasn't about to put more money into it and void the warranty.
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your 68 RI. It's hard when you can't turn an amp up before you buy and most stores aren't set up to handle that...and don't get me started about buying gear online. The shipping is a killer and the returns a nightmare.
Hope you got out of it without too much pain.
If not, I'd put it in a new solid pine cab. I"ve used Pinetone and The Cab Guy (John Hinsdale). Both do solid pine with baltic birch baffles. Dead silent.
Best, Keith
Dude, what about the pull boost models? To me, they were the best. Remember one of my college roommates saying, "Dude, that thing is fucking loud!" Nice tone too.
They were indeed great. I had one made in 1978. The downside with the push/pull boost is that it got the boost by utilizing the reverb driver. Boost on, then no reverb.
Here is what you are missing about Fender and the Princeton. Analytically, when examining circuitry, hence the schematics.....The Princeton crossing over into the tolex era was basically an evolution of the tweed deluxe amp. The Princeton can be thought of as a single channel tweed deluxe and the next step in the deluxe evolution being that the power section went from being cathode biased to a fixed bias & negative feedback loop on the phase inverter, and that it had an added vibrato circuit (which would be the 1/2 of a 12ax7 that the other channel would use in a tweed deluxe repurposed for the vibrato circuit). The early era tolex amps had a tone pot where as the later era went to the traditional tone stack of the 1960's as opposed to the tone stack/cathode follower style of the tweed era amps...….with its associated gain loss.
There are 2 directions you could go in modification, one of which would be the classic mesa boogie tone stack ground lift which they called a gain boost......which it is due to the gain loss of the tone stack being lifted out of the signal chain. The gain boost would be similar to the gain of a tweed era deluxe......all be it being just a single channel deluxe.
A more sophisticated mod for the gain would involve bypassing the tone stack all together with a switch and have the signal pass through the appropriate value signal cap. The ground lift of the tone stack still has the signal passing through the tone stack network but is more simple to do.
The secondary mod would be to convert the Princeton from being fixed biased to making it cathode biased by changing the circuit appropriately. Then you would also have to examine the plate voltages and adjust them appropriately for a tweed response. Tweed Deluxe amps were not known for the clean headroom range.
When cathode biasing, you need to also examine the phase inverter as there are 2 points which can be changed on its cathode, and this also has to do with the negative feedback circuit. With the feedback circuit, the amp will be tame in such sense, but if you choose to drop the negative feedback.....the amp can become a very knarly beast in a great way.
@FlamQ Dbltap I do recommend changinging the silver faced amps back to the black faced specs. This usually revolves around the phase inverter and the power tubes biasing situation. The phase inverters were tamed down in the silver face amps so as you go up in volume....they just stay clean and don't break up. That might be fine for particular circumstances or if you want a really clinically clean signal....they sound quite sterile to my ears and not like a tube amp despite being tubes. But other that changing out values for the offending resistors, you also have to mind the voltages on the plates. The more critical of the plate voltage is on the first pre amp tube, and you'd have to adjust the power rail feed resistors as these can be the schematic values or end up different values than what's on the schematics.....but also affected by the power tube bias. SO once you ball park the voltages, then you set the power tube bias and recheck all the plate voltages and make any final adjustments. The primary preamp tube is where your sound originates so the plate voltage affects this. The higher plate voltage which some of the amps spec at around 225 volts lead to a cleaner high head room situation, where as like a bf deluxe reverb specs a 170 volt plate voltage which will give less head room and bring on breakup faster. SO its a matter of preference for your guitar playing style. You can actually go alittle lower than 170 volts too. This is in a generic sense as the type of tube you put into the sockets have their own thing to them so setting the plate voltages is kind of a thing of striking a balance.
The power tube plate voltages tend to be high in silver face amps, so once set up and in final adjustment....you measure the plate voltages and compare to the schematic. Generally when the power tube plates run up in the 465 volt range, the power tubes tend to be kind of bright and sometimes can be a harsh brittle bright. This can be affected by the tube choice as 6L6's have a scooped kind of curve with a high end "chime" as some describe it.....but the high end can get to be brittle high. The tube books from the manufacturer's in the era like the RCA book, they list the maximum plate voltages at around 400 volts, so fender was pushing past that in the silver face era, but not so in the tweed era. So reducing the power tube plate voltage might be the direction to go. So its a combination of the power tube selection and the plate voltage again just like the first pre-amp tube. The higher voltage on the power tube plates yields more power, and with less voltage the output power will decrease but you shouldn't be able to tell......its in the math. But I tend to use a high wattage cement power resistor inserted in series in the power rail after the diodes. Generally 500ohms may be the value to drop the voltage.....or less than 500 ohms. It depends on if the particular amp has a solid state rectifier or a tube.....the tube insert point would be off the rectifier...the wire that connects to the power rail would be replaced with the power resistor. You need a high power rated type because its going to get hot. Ideally one with a chassis mount and fins for cooling would be the type. But keep in mind that this would also be a fuse kind of thing, so if it gets too hot and burns out....the amp shuts down. SO you need the high wattage type to prevent this. SO if you do this to drop the plate voltages of the power tubes...….you'd also have to readjust all the plate voltages the whole way through to the first preamp tube again.
My personal preference is having a master volume, a 1 meg pot, in front of the phase inverter...as its a gate keeper to the power tubes...how much signal will get to the power tubes for amplification. Fender may have started with a MV in 1972, and it was a non pull out MV. To understand what is going on, when you do not have a master volume.....the signal goes through the amp to the power tubes and the volume control present on the first preamp tube is the only control. The head room of that first preamp tube in relation to the signal passing through to the power tubes and the overall loudness ….its just a single relationship and you don't have good control over the head room and "compression of the wave" passing through to the power section. The head room adjustment is affected by the plate voltage on that first preamp tube, so as you go up on the dial to "10", the wave will be growing.....both peaks on the wave. There will be a point on the dial where the wave will reach its maximum and the top of the peaks will start to "compress" and that's where the breakup point is and the over drive and distortion character. A better term for "compress" is squish.....the top of the peak of the waves gets squished down.....and if the plate voltages are set right...you'll have control on the dial as to how much you can squish it down...the breakup. Hence 225 volts on the plate has less squish. If it were a foot pedal and solid state, the signal through those electronics gets clipped off abruptly so its a squared off flat line, where as a tube squishes down and has a rounded transition rather than an abrupt clipped off top of the wave.
So without a master volume, you would be having to have the amp way loud to get to the juicy compression character which is in that first preamp tube and the single volume control for it.
With a master volume, you'd set the preamp volume up to find your break up point you like for your playing style and set your tone section......the signal then hits the master volume which is the gate keeper to the power tubes...….so you bring up the master volume to adjust your loudness.
To get into the juice of the power tubes and their distortion/compression character.....
from zero to about 3 on a master volume dial is where the power section will amplify louder and louder as you come up on the dial. After 3 and going up to around 7 or 8 is the range of the dial where you will be in the power tube zone of compression and distortion. So dialing up in that range will yield more and more dynamic but it might be subtle to your ears but its there. And from 7/8 to wide open is jimi Hendrix territory.
SO the preamp squish is passed through to the power section and it depend how loud you want to play and how much power tube juice you want. The overall loudness dialing up to 3 from zero is really the thing for loudness of the amp....as going into the juice of the amp passed 3....the loudness of the amp doesn't really sound like its getting louder like its more watts. SO overall loudness is more about selecting the power tubes...….2 6L6's types will be subjectively "louder" in watts than 2 6V6's......but it can be kind of close at times depending on voltages. SO professional players and studio players always lean on the lower wattage amps with the 6V6's.....The 6V6's have a certain kind of creamy tone to them as opposed to the big brother 6L6's, and the 5881's have a certain creamy thing as opposed to the 6L6's. If you play in a band, you want to be loud enough to hear yourself when on stage with your band members playing too.
AS for the master volume pot itself, when its wide open its 1 meg of signal separation to ground so it should not affect the quality of the signal. If there is a purest thing with issue to this 1 meg separation to ground, they do make a "no load" pot, and its finding a 1 meg one. The no load kind of drops the pot action out of the pot....as there is a small gap in the trace of the pot swing when its wide open, so there is no 1 meg to ground. But that little separation in the swing is like a dead spot on the dial you want to stay out of. Up to the drop out it acts like a regular pot.....so it separates the signal from going to ground as you dial up. So on "10" wide open, its transparent as if there is no pot in the circuit. Is it worth the trouble to use a no load pot...…?????, I would say its not worth it as most 1 meg to ground circuits are maximum signal through....its often a situation to eliminate pop of switches which carry signal as well as the scenario of the first preamp tube and the guitar signal coming in for amplification. The 1 meg distance to ground is the maximum. If you happen to have an old amp that uses a 500K pot instead of a 1 meg pot, yes there is signal still being bled off to ground with a 500K pot, so you can swap it with a 1 meg and get more gain out of that amp. The issue is that the amp was not "designed" by the designer for that in which some people go bonkers over because they do not understand electronics. A lot of the time designers actually don't play guitar and have no clue. Its kind of like a chef cooking a dish that they do not eat so they have no clue on how it tastes.
to clarify a bit further, a 500K pot doesn't separate the signal to ground enough, where as a 1 meg pot reaches the maximum potential. You can do an ear test......but point being....there are 2 meg pots and sometimes larger values. There is no difference in the ears to gain when using a 2 meg pot......the magic spot is a 1 meg pot. Electricity takes the path of least resistance to ground. What you want is a good sweep in the pot dial for adjustments......so there are pot tapers and there can be different rates of the pot taper with the manufacturer's line of pots...standard or special taper.
There is a lot to amplifiers as they are not a generic thing. Capacitors and resistor values and the materials they are made from, the voltages and the tube themselves......everything can be critical. But there can also be a factor of STRESS...the electronic stress and the thermal stress on the materials......its gets complexed.
The "classic" amps were made by companies seeking a profit and nothing to do with signal quality or specifics, so they used the cheapest sourced parts.....aand 50 years later those parts deteriorate with age. Even within the era and off the same assembly line, there was variances in the product where no 2 units would actually be the same exactly to the littlest of detail electronically.
With components of the present times, there can be more consistency in making an amp and circuitry.....and on my part its based on working with the stuff and experience of years of hands on......and being a guitar player. AND NOT BEING DEAF......which is not a reference to playing guitar at loud volume levels over an extended period of time. Keep in mind that there are old timers that were in the same room/hall of loud guitar...some have hearing loss and others do not. I'm referring to having a critical ear....
One further thing, with the RCA tube books being reprinted and available as opposed to obtaining a vintage book. In the back of the tube manual they printed circuit diagrams for different applications whether it be audio or for TV. The designs were given away free as their labs came up with them as a means to promote their tubes they sell and manufacture. This is where leo fender first got his amplifier notions on being a manufacturer. They all used existing designs from the western electric labs or from RCA......then tweaked them. The components of the time changed over the course of electronics evolution as referring to materials......vacuum tubes gave rise to solid state and transistors......and there was a push on in the industry to miniaturize …...so the bulk and size of vacuum tube circuitry was reduced with transistors, and further along the time line with solid state electronics came the IC chips further reducing size. In the Vacuum tube era, size wasn't really a consideration as it was more of a novelty that there were electronics & that science...the technology.
@@mikecamps7226 How much further do you need to go, man? The whole point of
his video is "enough." So I say, enough.
Till the fat lady sings ?@@larrygeetar9309
Found my dad’s old 65 in my moms closet!!!
I was looking through an old photo album and saw it...
Then went looking for it!!
It’s dusty but mint!!
At the peak of my GAS years I was saving for a Princeton even though my VHT Spec. 6 was way too loud according to my wife. I finally settled for a Fender Champ XD which I currently own and will not part with. Oh, yes my wife thinks it's way too loud so I also bought a Yamaha THRC 10 with a headphone jack. Happy wife, happy life.
I have the SCXD, great amp for the price.....15W is loud enough!
Absolutely the greatest TH-cam review of guitar gear. A Silver-face Princeton also my first guitar amp, but like All The Young Dudes, I soon enough wanted something louder, even if running an original EH Big Muff into it, my only communication with my parents at 15 had already become, a constant "Turn that damn guitar down!" Loved the Mike Campbell story, the most under-recognized all-time great guitarist ever, new info to me, and you ended this Princeton history and video so nicely with The Heartbreakers clip. Tom Petty, R.I.P., so loved and dearly missed by many.
Thank you for the accolades. Very appreciated. Glad to have you as part of five watt world.
I wanted a Princeton Reverb, but couldn't afford, so I picked up Mesa Subway Blues, that I love. Some associate Mesa w/ modern metal, but this amp is a pretty close to a Fenderish sound.(20 watt/10" combo w/ analog reverb) You don't need a lot of stage volume if you are running in ear monitors and have a PA. More and more bands are running no stage volume by using cabinet sims. It give the FoH engineer more control, especially in small venues.
those are great amps. I used one to record with in the studio years ago. It is a VERY underrated amp.. and very affordable too!
Not being that much of a Fender amp fan myself, I always wondered what the differences were between black face, brown face, and silver face amps.....and now I'm still none the wiser 😆
Well maybe a little bit 👍
I'm wondering also that in these stupid days of 'political correctness' and people being triggered at the slightest thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the thought police try banning the use of the terms black face and brown face. Although to be honest I'm surprised that noone has kicked up a stink about it....or maybe they have and I just don't know about it.
Ya might be over-thinking that whole PC thing just a little.
Can't watch this without thinking how much I miss Tom Petty. Never was a huge fan, but when he died it hit me hard. I came to this video because my first amp was a princeton reverb that I bought new in 1978. Had to sell it to pay college tuition, unfortunately, along with my strat! Miss them both to this day... We love you, Tom, and the Princeton!
Question years ago I got to play through a brown face Fender amp tan tolex that had 3 10" speakers I think it was called a studiomaster. Does anyone know anything about this . I wonder if it had been modded to the 3 speaker it was absolutely the best sounding amp I've ever played through.
No, that was a Bandmaster with stock 3 speakers. I believe they made them in 1960..... pretty rare amp.
Nothing about one of the very best clean tones you can get? The Princeton Chorus! Heresy, maybe, but a great amp for clean tones and cheap too.
Yeah, I stop the history prior to the red knobs but one of my favorite amps was my red knob PC. So much so that I told my nephew to buy that amp when he was looking for a good pedal platform amp as a teenager. And the stereo chorus was SO addictive.
Thanks for watching Kev.
Keith
I have 4 Fender Princeton Reverbs and a Tweed Princeton. A couple Deluxe Reverbs. I play through my old Tweed Champ the most often.
I have a Princeton reissue and it's great. Nice to take to jobs and plenty loud. Now I'm trying to sell a Twin lol it's just too heavy to lug around anymore. It was OK when I was younger but at 70 it's a bit much.
I own Roadhouse 12 (hand wired clone of a 6g2 brown Princeton) with a 12” speaker. It is a beast of an amp. You can play just about anything with it and it’s a great gigging amp.
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I DIG ALL MY LOW WATTAGE AMPS & ALWAYS USE THEM
MY 1958 FENDER HARVARD HAS BEEN MY FIRST CHOICE FOR A FEW YEARS NOW WITH MY 1972 ECHOPLEX WITH A 1956 LES PAUL GOLDTOP RE
IT'S A RICH FULL TONE
CARLOS GUITARLOS 90042
Plywood is great for guitar cabs but it has to be a void free marine grade of ply. Particle board does not cut it from a roadworthiness perspective. Some of the old Fender cabs get buzzy and sometimes they can be fixed by routing out a section and gluing in a stiffener but it's a lot of work.When I worked for a music store we had a customer bring in a super rare tweed style Liz Taylor Bassman that was factory tolexed like the Stones/ Blondie Champlin "Jan and Dean" amp (that wasn't a Bassman, it ws a Twin iirc, but same thing-tweed style cab factory tolexed, probaly less than 20 were ever done of all styles). It buzzed like hell but the owner did not want it stripped. We located the separated areas, drilled into them and using a vacuum pump got Brownells Acraglas to inject in there and fill the voids. Worked great. We had maybe ten hours in the project and he bitched at the price tag though.
Then the output transformer dropped a deuce a few months later (because the amp hadn't been played for decades and was suddenly in high use) and the owner blamed us. We'd put him on the banned customer list by then and he would up sending it to a certain meat cutterr to have it "Rebuilt" and the guy did, actually probably did a good job, but the guy bitched more that it "didn't sound the same". There is no making some people happy and identifying them and getting them to go away, is one important key to running a business.
So Very Cool Thankyou. One of my Favorite episodes (Big Mike Campbell and Fender Amp Fan) Cheers
Keith: Thanks for this video, which provides further corroboration of a growing consensus that Clarence White's studio amp of choice was a Princeton Reverb.
A non-reverb Princeton does not have more headroom than a Princeton Reverb, that is a basic misunderstanding of the term "headroom". It is true that they don't have as much gain available, but that does not increase headroom. To increase headroom would mean the power amp is able to produce more amplitude (volume) before going into non-linear operation (i.e. distorting). They don't do that, so no, no additional headroom. Also, having owned a Princeotn Reverb since the early 80's, and having had it onstage many, many times, I can assure you that they can easily be swamped by an aggressive rhythm section, or another guitar player with a bigger amp. It works fine for Mike Campbell because he mic's it up and run's it through the PA. He hears it on a big stage through the monitors. But I would agree that if your band is too loud for you to use a PR, then for most bar & small venue gigs the bans is too loud. Those bands that can't grasp this concept are the ones that don't get repeat jobs at a venue, and wonder why.
Great history but there’s more on the country side. Marty Stuart and Kenny Vaughan run their Telecasters, particularly the Clarence White B-Bender, through ‘68 Princeton Reverbs. Their last album, Way Out West, was produced by Mike Campbell.
I hear ya. This is the hardest part about making these, what to keep in, and of course the limitations of what I know. Others chimed right in to tell me that Stuart and Vaughan are Princeton guys but I didn't know that when I did the vid. Maybe a good thing would be a vid on users and tones, just about the music made and not about versions or circuits.
Thanks for checking it out and thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.
Keith
@@fivewattworld Thanks Keith & keep 'em coming. I'm enjoying your format and presentation style. It's clear that you do your research. Great info for someone like me who's coming to this later in life and trying to avoid buying stuff I really don't need.
At any venue larger than the neighborhood bar, the guitars are mic'd... so amp wattage and speaker size literally don't matter as far as volume is concerned.
I kinda miss the 80s Rivera-ERA Princeton reverb II's . Not very classic sounding but seemed to have more power compared to some vintage ones. i ran a pair with a TS-9 and could hear every note and compete with a 4x12 .
With any amp you should be able to keep up with the band because they have things called microphones 😁😁😁
Harp player here....back in the day I played through a 65 PR, my all time favorite amp. Depending on the venue and the band I would mic it or slave it into a Fender Bassman. The black face PR with the right tubes is a fantastic harp amp. Thanks!!!
Thanks for watching. Welcome to five watt world Daniel.