Dear god Kathleen mentioned people bringing their animals and now I'm just thinking about Interplanar Invasive species and how just absolutely ecologically devastating they could be in such an incredibly mundane and normal way.
My take is that Rakdos, being the biggest theater nerd in the multiverse, is so into playing his role as "the Muscle" that he doesn't mind patiently waiting for the proper moment to do the punchy violence.
I'm also big on the vibe that Rakdos is basically a big old house cat, in that he isn't actually very energetic. But when he actually gets moving he is exclusively motivated by violence and property damage. (Also never ever get him angry)
I think Kathleen vastly underestimates how much random violence the rulers of Ravnica have been willing to put up with in the past, provided it keeps Rakdos himself busy and lazy. As she said the population of the plane is absolutely enormous, so the death-by-clown rate would have to get amazingly high before it even shows up against the background noise of traffic accidents, plagues, Orzhov "soul repossession", and whatever Simic/Izzet experiment got loose this week. A society can function like that perfectly well, so long as it has a half decent birth rate. Despite surface appearances, Ravnica is actually pretty feudal in how the 10 leaders use their guilds, with the very callous understanding of the value of a sentient life which that brings. I remember one story from the perspective of an Izzet goblin test pilot, who was considered slightly less valuable than the test rocket, and had zero landing plan. It's not much of a step from there to "The clowns murdered a hundred people today? Interesting, that's down on yesterday's hundred-and-ten". Honestly Rakdos himself has always seemed like a bit of an auteur, appreciating fine craftmanship in his bloodletting and torture, with an eye for excellence over just pure numbers. And he can only be watching so many productions at once, which is the real limit on how much his guild actually needs to be doing.
I think the image problem Jace had was that old counterspells would have flavourtext attributed to Ertai who was the main blue wizard character at the time and being snarky was his thing. When Jace then became the new main blue character of Magic thet gave all the snarky counterspell flavourtext to him even though he wasn't like that. It then lead to a disconnect bewteen how the character was perceived from actual story and how he was perceived from flavourtext
As it happens, Mark Rosewater had a similar comment on his blog some years back. He suggested that they were all actually said by Race, Jace's rude cousin
I'd expand that to the entire character; it felt like Jace was the PoV character because people liked the color blue, not because he was a particularly engaging mind-mage. Even when he used his powers, he didn't play off of his actual powerset when it came to solving problems creatively. He felt like a template for a Blue Planeswalker that they gave a name more than a character. Ironically, hiding behind the "he mind-controlled/wiped himself" didn't actually fix that until they started building from that sort-of blank slate they gave him in Ixalan. Kellen runs into a similar problem, but from White. I'd attribute him being good at random plot-relevant things to him being "White Aligned" as a character, but aside from his previous goal of "Find Oko" he's been generally lacking any texture. Even without replacing someone, Kellen needs a personality trait that isn't just "naive, exploring the world."
I'm inclined to agree with Kathleen's thesis that the people who are working on the story are talented, capable writers who really care for what they're doing, but they are horrifically constrained by the amount of space they are given. Addendum: I would absolutely be here for one (or even a series of) story retrospectives on the various pieces and arcs worth revisiting.
Magic the Gathering is like Godzilla. Sometimes there's a deep story with many layers on different levels, and sometimes there's Jet Jaguar/doing a suplex off a pyramid.
I love the concept that the cult of rakdos jumped straight to murder sex circus cult to entertain rakdos, and in reality they could have kept him equally appeased by doing like BMX, Pro skating or football. Like the man wants a good show, and they just jumped straight to the most extreme version. It's like putting on the Running Man for someone who would have been perfectly happy with The Price is Right.
Not exactly. The theme of Red/Black in the Cult of Rakdos is hedonism. They embody this to extremes, and Rakdos actively encourages it while he mostly lazes around to enjoy watching them go through with it.
One of my favourite little details they missed is that when Oko and co. is reconvening post-failed heist someone asks where Malcolm and Breeches are and Oko(?) mentions that they were *only* there cause Vraska was, and now that she's gone they peaced out to follow her. It's such a fun detail, and I love that Vraska still has all that respect from her former crew. Also it means we might get more of Malc and Breeches in later sets when Vraska shows up. Love it.
I'm right on board with Cameron & Kathleen- Magic Story's got really good potential and has frequently produced astoundingly good pieces of short fiction. If WotC would just give some of these excellent writers some gosh dang BREATHING ROOM, they could easily churn out lots of iconic pulp novels- Black Library is proof that this system works and is profitable. I wonder if maybe they're reticent to do more novels after how poorly received (rightly so) the War of the Spark novels were?
I appreciate their defense of writers and hope for the story. But I do wish they helped that defense by heavily criticizing WotC for giving way too much pressure to just "make things fit".
My overall reaction to the story is that looking back at everything that happened, Jace was written all over it and it still blew my mind when he revealed himself at the end.
The epilogue for this set was every bit as good as the writing in the last set, which is what got me really into the story for the first time since I became an enfranchised player (ca. 2021). It did the impossible, which was soothing my disdain for Jace (cop-ass vanilla ice who pulls bad bitches despite being as flavorful as a saltine) as a character.
As an Irish American, the idea that the Celtic-inspired culture may have been an empire, when Irish history is like THE OPPOSITE, is kind of funny. Also, if anyone's curious, check out the Giants' Causeway in Northern Ireland. Ties in with the folklore of the Fomorii and is a geological marvel. Looks a liiiiittle bit like the planar art for Ir.
Oh we actually have confirmation that there was going to be an Aftermath set. The Big Score bonus sheet is Standard legal because it was originally intended to be the connected Aftermath set, but MOM Aftermath flopped so hard that they decided to merge them to avoid that flop again.
So the reason why the buildings look the way they do is because they’re built as quickly as possible. A lot of the “Western Towns” irl were put up shockingly fast (some within a few months) with local materials, so it shouldn’t be surprising that Thunder Junction would look similar because it was also built within a few months
This is a great point of real world inspiration. From a Multiverse perspective, I also think some of the city flavour could be explained by New Capenna culture. The Yuma short story makes me think quite a few people from that particularly devastated plane are migrating to more hospitable worlds and bringing their party life and speakeasy influences with them. Yuma thinks the train is a Capennan design, when I assumed it was built by people from Kaladesh.
As someone who feels like I don't have time to read anymore, let alone catch up with Magic Lore, I really enjoy these kinds of story overviews and enjoyed this one in particular. I had very little care or anything on my radar for this set or it's characters, but this summarizing of the story showed that it was more interesting than I originally thought. Well done team :)
The entire main story convinced me I needed another light novel of just what Amalia’s been doing this whole time, first on Ravnica and now Thunder Junction. I like her much more than Kellan and I’d love to know what the perspective of a sheltered dusk rose vampire’s view on the Orzhov, or a completely unmapped uninhabited desert plane would be like.
kathleen, Ashiok was also banished from New Phyrexia by Elesh Norn for exposing that she could have a nightmare (in the leadup to March of the Machine). (timestamp 50:00)
There are a lot of legends because it's supposed to be a outlaw/villain set as well as a western set because of how NA centric the wild west is as a theme. Not all of these are pure evil but still aren't as cut a dry heroic as the Gideons of the world. These are the opportunistic or the misfits. Also on the Eriette front there is a case for charming redundancy in a team.
In retrospect the weirdness of Ashiok's behaviour stands out; in the moment I had put it down to it being part of their greater plan. The mind mage tricks made it more obvious that it was Jace in disguise - he did the same mindlink group call for the Gatewatch on Innistrad. I actually had the thought that maybe Jace's mind may have become detached from his original body and found a way to possess Ashiok. This new being was a blend of the two and perhaps more callous, setting up a new arc for Jace in the "hero living long enough to become the villian" trope as his self-justified actions to fix the damage he had caused increasingly sprial into atrocities. It'd be a gut punch for everyone who loved the amnesiac pirate.
Nashi is my favorite mtg character, as someone who just got into the whole series, and I was super happy to see him receive such a great story! When he took on Tamiyo’s occupation in his aftermath card, I worried that he would just become Tamiyo 2, but this story directly addressed that! Nashi is someone with a lot of grief gained through what he’s been through, and there’s a profound feeling of being cheated out on a good life by forces and people outside of his control (read the Ajani story in Kaladesh where Ajani and an younger Nashi connect through shared losses, it’s amazing!!) So when he loses the best thing to happen to him, his mother, Tamiyo, it’s understandable that he’d gain even more grief from it, and how he responds to that is really great too. My worry about him turning into Tamiyo 2 is directly addressed by that becoming his main conflict. In losing his mother, his grief spurs him on to take on her duties and continually sublimate and obliterate himself so he can become Tamiyo, so that his mother could keep on living through him. He is fine with there being less Nashi and there being more Tamiyo, that’s his response to his grief. But this story actively shows that that method won’t work and won’t bring her back in any way, and that Nashi thrives on being himself over being Tamiyo. The way that is expressed through his version of story magic coming easier to him through surveillance footage not only honors Tamiyo, but is also distinctly Nashi more than anything. This is him reclaiming himself, both finding a new way to heal and thrive, and honoring Tamiyo’s true wishes for him. Plus, my favorite line of the whole story about Nashi’s memory being fallible compared to recorded stories is fantastic! It’s such a good encapsulation on the nature of memory and how it’s expressed and passed on through stories; plus, it’s a good expression of Nashi’s grief and wanting to hold on to anything tangible of his mother, but feeling frustrated that he can’t remember literally everything. Those smaller, mundane, but constant moments are lost on him, and it’s what he craves to remember the most in detail. They’re experiences he can’t get back, which only highlights his initial desire to be less of him and be more of Tamiyo even more. God, I could gush on and on about this side story for Nashi, I love it so much~!!!
Headcanon for Rakdos is that he was the big monster murder demon, but has chilled a lot and grown since the guild pact 'bound' him into moderation, learning the value of limited his destructive self and bending it more creatively. A sort of Red Death from Venture Brothers, still loves killing, but understands the rules are important, so he binds himself to those rules.
IIRC, there was confirmed to be a scrapped aftermath style set, it's what turned into the 'vault' bonus sheet. That does not explain the density of cameos.
Yeah they announced this about 2 months or so ago before we even saw the first spoilers for this set. From what they've said the only card moved into the main set and not just the BIG list is Jace
I always figured the other guilds ceded power to Rakdos and his guild because while he is a menace to society, should an interplanar threat arrive on Ravnica, it’s really easy to point him in the threat’s general direction and tell him to go nuts. Also the whole story was a case of Chekov’s Rakdos, and I’m here for it.
Alison Luhrs came in swinging a steel chair of an Epilogue (Part 1) today! I'm really hoping for a follow-up to this episode to catch up on Alison's Epilogue!
Just as a fun fact for anyone curious since the crew here brought it up, Kaervek is still alive because his prison tower was phased out along with the rest of Zhalfir when teferi phased them out (same reason Jolrael is still alive) and he returned (and promptly escaped) when Zhalfir was brought back via swapping places with new Phyrexia.
I still believe, given the art, and the fact that Jace isn't the only telepath, and even hinted at the end of MKM, that the person who intruded wasn't Jace, but Lazav entering and stealing secrets from Proft's mind. If you compare the art, it's even more strongly suggested. I just think Not Everything Has To Be Jace, you know?
The Rakdos arc of just going around being entertained (and probably destroying many things) before returning to ravnica with his newly founded interplanar theatre troupe to replace the cult with his new group would be wonderful
As someone who was born in the desert with cowboys i can tell you thunder junction sounds like heaven. Any humitity in the air and i become a greasy mess
The thing that bothers me about the mishmash of legends is that they don't NEED to make them all lore-compliant. Sure, give them new cards to sell packs, but let the story team work out if it's an "What if" scenario or if they're actually there! They could have both the vorthos and the people who only care about the cards happy. Also, what a great episode. Sense8 and Chrono Cross mentioned, people who genuinely care about the lore and can criticize the "seams" of the story and analyze its beats. I can't wait for the next lore TTC when they get to review the Epilogues (so far we've only got chapter 1 but THEY GOT ALISON LÜRS WRITING IT).
I wait for the day they do a music/opera plane where Rakdos can be truly entertained and embrace his inner theater nerd. He seems like he would enjoy the Carmina Burana, O Fortuna.
Counterpoint: I think Jace's character rehabilitation started in Shadows/BFZ. We got to see him work in a party setting and it really opened us up to who he REALLY is
I like the idea that the Rakdos cult was doing all the crazy murder to keep Rakdos asleep but he finally woke up and was like "guys you don't have to kill him the knife juggling is pretty cool"
Fun fact: Yuma (the face commander of the Naya Deserts Precon) is the first canonically Trans Man in MTG, and his story hilariously reveals that New Capennans think transitioning involves changing your humors, leading to LoreleyWrites posting “the four humours are blood, phlegm, estradiol, and t-gel”
Well now I HAVE to run this guy (kindly disregard deadname; I am just exceedingly lazy with tech stuff unless I get paid to care about it). All the trans characters!!!
I always said that the Jace hate had nothing to do with his character and everything to do with him getting a busted planeswalker card in Jace the Mindsculptor.
And the flavor text. Maro said a long time ago that early on they would do arrogant Blue spell flavor text attributed to Ertai, and when Jace became the default Blue character they just changed to attributing him, despite not really fitting his character.
As partially vorthosian person, I am not necessarily against Jace's return (especially if his phyresis was very impactful and consequential). However, it was quite disappointing to me that we did not get to see Ashiok scheming and getting something they want.
I do think magic in general got gunshy about doing books after the repeating fumble that was War of the Spark. Namely I remember people complaining that it was in one book that they had to pay for, that it was in two parts and yet still felt rushed, that both the book and the cards had conflicting visions on events, and that's not even including the ChandraXNissa stuff or the fact that the fallout was so bad they had to basically retcon it away (Like they've had to for like almost every book they've ever done), and the fact that they took a break from telling stories at all for the next few sets. That said I do think the idea of releasing books have potential. I would really like a combination of artbook like they did with amonkhet and stuff with besically the "directors cut" of the story giving the writers space to play more while still uploading the shorter version on the mothership. Hell, I'd love a book that's just all the magic short stories of one stretch of time collected into an anthology-esque book.
If possible I would love if you could at least have part of the next TTC to talk about the epilogue that you weren’t able to cover. Thanks again for all you do!
Congrats on 500!!! I am also on the camp of hating Jace until the ixalan story. But his interactions with Vraska, Gideon and Liliana were so good I was kinda missing him in the story
I think of Thunder Junction as Westworld meets Mos Eisley: the place where interplanar scum go to have a vacation on themselves and the expectations at their native planes and play cowboy tropes without real consequences
Know what I kinda wanna see now? Ashiok meeting up with Jace, to see how they feel about their gimmick getting stolen, and if they don't think it's funny, one of these two happening: Jace arrogantly believing his more general mind powers plus what he underwent on Phyrexia makes him more than a match for Ashiok, only for Ashiok to be all "oh, you think a little torture and mental talent means you understand fear? Biiiii--"; or Ashiok absolutely convinced that they're going to break Jace in the first clash only for Jace to prove rather more resilient to fear than they expect and then use his superior skill base to mess them up.
500 TTCs? Feels like just yesterday I was watching the lot of you huddled around a table talking about your commander decks. Anyway, I think the Magic story's been in a pretty good place lately. MKM was very good and OTJ was than I expected. The Ashiok reveal genuinely got me. Though I do have to say, the high point was DEFINITELY Seanen McGuire getting to play with the Cecani twins again.
I love how the epilogue has answered several questions the crew ask, and made everything make a lot more sense. Also, and I say this because he's my favoured commander, Ghired going to TJ and the only explanation being his card's flavour text of "The Selesnya are pricks, the Gruul are nuts. That's an omenpath... I'm outta here." is really all I need.
4:29 My brain autocompleted Kathleen's sentence with "your pores" Also, as someone who sweats the way that Graham and Jacob do, I feel no insecurity in stating that moisturizer is likely not enough for any of us to survive on Thunder Junction. I drink several gallons of water a day and still find myself thirsty on the regular.
I love these lore episodes, they’re a great way to digest the story. I would love if Kathleen went back and did a retrospective on earlier stories like she mentioned! (DMU was a bit of a sleeper imo)
I think they did a pretty good job explaining why everyone was involved , but im guessing for some, now we know it was Jace, they werent so much convinced to join as compelled to want to. The so many dead bodies thing was also explained right after Gisa screeched about it, people bringing bodies with them from other planes. We also dont know that Jace and Vraska planeswalked, just that they vanished. Seems likely enough has just been using the omenpaths rather than suddenly can planeswalk people
Started on Spotify and finished on TH-cam when I got home, just to get the full experience. :D Though I've got to say, having TTC lined up straight after QWERPLINE is a hell of a ride. I keep being unsure whether I should actually take what Graham says seriously, and it doesn't feel right that the sponsor doesn't rhyme and isn't read by Beej. Consider: "Card Kingdom's smart bling-tonne of art- 'n' ink-fun Buy yourself 1000 kilos of expensive magic stuff at well-organised paper royalty! Card Kingdom's smart bling-tonne of art- 'n' ink-fun From Seattle, Washington."
Speaking of looking, I saw a really old episode of Friday Nights that had Wheeler in it. (So glad he was there thank you for having him.) Oh he was just a scrawny babby. Like a normally fluffy furred animal had just been shaved. He looks very good now! Personally I think Graham looked pretty spiffy with the cueball look, but I can understand those were otherwise not memories he'd want to relive.
I agree Annie not seeing Jace sooner isn't a plot hole, but it is a plot contrivance. This is our first story with her and we are shown she is cautious, and slow to trust, and she already knows Oko uses illusions, it feels like the only reason she doesn't give everyone a once over is so they can have the reveal later
Here's the thing: co-signed on everything discussed here, but also OH MY GOD THE EPILOGUE WITH THE INVASION TREE. OH. MY GOD. I cannot wait for hearing reaction to this from the crew, assuming this was recorded before it came out.
Mark Rosewater confirmed on Tumblr that there was a cancelled Aftermath set for Thunder Junction. Jace was meant to be in it, which is why his Collector Number is out of order for a blue card
Geralf strikes me as a medic who you go to when you stub your toe and will then turn you into a zombie so that the pain of a stubbed toe or stepping on lego won't bother you as much anymore
I think after so many thousands of years trying to Entertain a sleeping demon, that mortal imagination slipped and the Rakdos decided to go all murder-carnival thinking that was the only thing that could excite him anymore.
Ashiok setting up a Discord group call is sort of interesting, both as far as something traditional for "comms" in heist films (thinking in particular here of Leverage, but there's a general genre convention in a lot of modern-tech heists that if you press your ear you've got an earbud and somebody in a van is connecting all of those) but also as a reflection of an assumption from the day-to-day prevalence of slack, discord, team, zoom, etc that have people today just expecting a lot more always-on voice communication and assuming that it would be a natural application of any telepathy or the like to enable it than previously--Overly Sarcastic Productions had sort of an interesting review of the evolution of that trope in her video about "Those Dang Phones" about a year ago.
On the one hand, Cam's right, and we should get back to Bundles having books in them. On the other hand, the web stories can be much closer written to "time of release", as it were, and less stress need be had between "an author might spoil a story thing" and the company that one time employed a non-zero number of pinkertons for spoiling something.
Like Graham I don't actually care but to pick at the cowboy clothes thread a bit further, simply because it's fun to do so; There exists styles of clothing on other planes that'd be similarly functional on a cowboy world, that these characters, especially the Planeswalkers, but other folk as well, would be aware of. You probably wouldn't need to invent a Cowboy Hat to keep the sun off, you'd just use the kind of wide brimmed hats they have on planes like Innistrad or Kamigawa. Maybe there's a strong Tarkir influence on the clothing because horses. Or maybe they're more Knightlike. It's a warm weather climate so maybe there's a strong Ixalan flavor to certain clothing styles. But that's not the gimmick; obviously they wanted to do cowboy stuff, which you can also bend over backwards to justify if you feel the need. I do think it'd be a neat flavor thing though if they did a mix and match when it made sense. They mention that Moonfolk womans (forgot her name) adopted rat son. What if he was fully decked out in cowpolk gear, except instead of a cowboy hat he had on a Sedge Hat because it'd serve the save sun protective purpose and his mom is from Kamigawa. If you can't picture it think of what the Wandering Emperor wore when she was just the Wanderer. That's like a really fancy version of one :p That'd be pretty fun. If the multiverse is going to be a big thing then maybe lean hard into the melting pot nature of cultural integration. This would have been a great setting to do not just "cowboy stuff" but rather explore what "cowboy stuff in the MTG multiverse" would really be like. Give me Ixalan Dinosaur Cowboys dressed like Khans who fight with lances.
Oko: Father of the Year. 😂 I agree with Kathleen's take on the story development, HOWEVER the way that the majority of players interact with the story will be through the cards and that will likely never change. So IMO the cards do have a responsibility to give a decent representation of that and cramming an entire Aftermath set into the main set when those people aren't part of the story at all is muddying the waters and I don't blame people at all for not being interested in _actually reading the story_ as a result.
My one complaint about the Jace reveal is that I wanted Ashiok Ashiok, but I understand they didn't want to keep Jace out while leaving some really big questions about Vraska.
I've for a long time just tuned out whenever Jace shows up because I never found him interesting, but that does mean I've completely misses what ever this character reform was, so I would really like a TTC that explains why he is actually interesting now.
Pity that this episode came out before the two great epilogue stories -written by Alison no less! Lots of the questions asked here about Jace and Vraska answers there. Personally, I agree with a lot that was said here - these stories were pretty good, I liked the twist, and the depth that was possible was constrained by the word count, as usual. I really dislike the lack of story reason for all the other characters printed n cards. So often my reaction to a spoiler was "WHY are they here?" Kathleen is right that isn't a criticism of the stories written, which already had too large a cast, but it is a justified criticism none the less, at least imho
Dear god Kathleen mentioned people bringing their animals and now I'm just thinking about Interplanar Invasive species and how just absolutely ecologically devastating they could be in such an incredibly mundane and normal way.
One word: Ikoria.
More of these strange slivery things... It's probably nothing.
Now I am trying to remember what the Kaladesh gremlins did against the Phyrexians
The Gitrog Monster will not rest until it becomes the ultimate invasive species. Innistrad containment has been breached. Nowhere is safe.
@@timbrault9939lots of things, none of them pleasant im sure
My take is that Rakdos, being the biggest theater nerd in the multiverse, is so into playing his role as "the Muscle" that he doesn't mind patiently waiting for the proper moment to do the punchy violence.
I'm also big on the vibe that Rakdos is basically a big old house cat, in that he isn't actually very energetic. But when he actually gets moving he is exclusively motivated by violence and property damage. (Also never ever get him angry)
Rakdos vs Kane, Hell in a Cell
…will be the best in a cycle of battle cards from the WWE Universes Beyond set.
I think Kathleen vastly underestimates how much random violence the rulers of Ravnica have been willing to put up with in the past, provided it keeps Rakdos himself busy and lazy. As she said the population of the plane is absolutely enormous, so the death-by-clown rate would have to get amazingly high before it even shows up against the background noise of traffic accidents, plagues, Orzhov "soul repossession", and whatever Simic/Izzet experiment got loose this week. A society can function like that perfectly well, so long as it has a half decent birth rate.
Despite surface appearances, Ravnica is actually pretty feudal in how the 10 leaders use their guilds, with the very callous understanding of the value of a sentient life which that brings. I remember one story from the perspective of an Izzet goblin test pilot, who was considered slightly less valuable than the test rocket, and had zero landing plan. It's not much of a step from there to "The clowns murdered a hundred people today? Interesting, that's down on yesterday's hundred-and-ten".
Honestly Rakdos himself has always seemed like a bit of an auteur, appreciating fine craftmanship in his bloodletting and torture, with an eye for excellence over just pure numbers. And he can only be watching so many productions at once, which is the real limit on how much his guild actually needs to be doing.
*Update: Karaoke has spread around the multiverse due to the Rakdos guild!
I think the image problem Jace had was that old counterspells would have flavourtext attributed to Ertai who was the main blue wizard character at the time and being snarky was his thing. When Jace then became the new main blue character of Magic thet gave all the snarky counterspell flavourtext to him even though he wasn't like that. It then lead to a disconnect bewteen how the character was perceived from actual story and how he was perceived from flavourtext
As it happens, Mark Rosewater had a similar comment on his blog some years back. He suggested that they were all actually said by Race, Jace's rude cousin
I'd expand that to the entire character; it felt like Jace was the PoV character because people liked the color blue, not because he was a particularly engaging mind-mage. Even when he used his powers, he didn't play off of his actual powerset when it came to solving problems creatively. He felt like a template for a Blue Planeswalker that they gave a name more than a character. Ironically, hiding behind the "he mind-controlled/wiped himself" didn't actually fix that until they started building from that sort-of blank slate they gave him in Ixalan.
Kellen runs into a similar problem, but from White. I'd attribute him being good at random plot-relevant things to him being "White Aligned" as a character, but aside from his previous goal of "Find Oko" he's been generally lacking any texture. Even without replacing someone, Kellen needs a personality trait that isn't just "naive, exploring the world."
I'm inclined to agree with Kathleen's thesis that the people who are working on the story are talented, capable writers who really care for what they're doing, but they are horrifically constrained by the amount of space they are given.
Addendum: I would absolutely be here for one (or even a series of) story retrospectives on the various pieces and arcs worth revisiting.
You would only be here for a story retrospective on the various pieces and arcs if you cast this comment during your main phase?
@@jadelson93 Well played, I laughed
Magic the Gathering is like Godzilla. Sometimes there's a deep story with many layers on different levels, and sometimes there's Jet Jaguar/doing a suplex off a pyramid.
I love the concept that the cult of rakdos jumped straight to murder sex circus cult to entertain rakdos, and in reality they could have kept him equally appeased by doing like BMX, Pro skating or football. Like the man wants a good show, and they just jumped straight to the most extreme version. It's like putting on the Running Man for someone who would have been perfectly happy with The Price is Right.
Also going back to the theater kid thing, Rakdos does along with the tropes cuz he thinks the script is good and he enjoys putting on a show.
Not exactly. The theme of Red/Black in the Cult of Rakdos is hedonism. They embody this to extremes, and Rakdos actively encourages it while he mostly lazes around to enjoy watching them go through with it.
One of my favourite little details they missed is that when Oko and co. is reconvening post-failed heist someone asks where Malcolm and Breeches are and Oko(?) mentions that they were *only* there cause Vraska was, and now that she's gone they peaced out to follow her.
It's such a fun detail, and I love that Vraska still has all that respect from her former crew. Also it means we might get more of Malc and Breeches in later sets when Vraska shows up. Love it.
Everyone at LRR has aged like fine wine, send tweet.
I personally prefer present silver fox Cameron to young "I still get beat up for my lunch money in college" Cameron.
Kaervek was trapped in a crystal, under guard on Zalfir and his escape was in MOM, though as I recall they chose to not mention him by name.
My take is that Rakdos is the king theatre guy and just wanted to be in a heist story and is playing along with the story
Thank you Kathleen for properly representing the joy the Vorthos community has been experiencing from the story reveals/surprises from this set 🙏
I'm right on board with Cameron & Kathleen- Magic Story's got really good potential and has frequently produced astoundingly good pieces of short fiction. If WotC would just give some of these excellent writers some gosh dang BREATHING ROOM, they could easily churn out lots of iconic pulp novels- Black Library is proof that this system works and is profitable.
I wonder if maybe they're reticent to do more novels after how poorly received (rightly so) the War of the Spark novels were?
I appreciate their defense of writers and hope for the story. But I do wish they helped that defense by heavily criticizing WotC for giving way too much pressure to just "make things fit".
My overall reaction to the story is that looking back at everything that happened, Jace was written all over it and it still blew my mind when he revealed himself at the end.
4:26 Genuinely thought Kathleen was going to ask for people to send in their skin care routines.
Coming here after reading today's epilogue story by Alison freaking Luhrs (!) to demand a follow up episode. We need to discuss THESE DEVELOPMENTS.
The epilogue for this set was every bit as good as the writing in the last set, which is what got me really into the story for the first time since I became an enfranchised player (ca. 2021). It did the impossible, which was soothing my disdain for Jace (cop-ass vanilla ice who pulls bad bitches despite being as flavorful as a saltine) as a character.
As an Irish American, the idea that the Celtic-inspired culture may have been an empire, when Irish history is like THE OPPOSITE, is kind of funny. Also, if anyone's curious, check out the Giants' Causeway in Northern Ireland. Ties in with the folklore of the Fomorii and is a geological marvel. Looks a liiiiittle bit like the planar art for Ir.
Oh we actually have confirmation that there was going to be an Aftermath set. The Big Score bonus sheet is Standard legal because it was originally intended to be the connected Aftermath set, but MOM Aftermath flopped so hard that they decided to merge them to avoid that flop again.
So the reason why the buildings look the way they do is because they’re built as quickly as possible. A lot of the “Western Towns” irl were put up shockingly fast (some within a few months) with local materials, so it shouldn’t be surprising that Thunder Junction would look similar because it was also built within a few months
This is a great point of real world inspiration. From a Multiverse perspective, I also think some of the city flavour could be explained by New Capenna culture. The Yuma short story makes me think quite a few people from that particularly devastated plane are migrating to more hospitable worlds and bringing their party life and speakeasy influences with them. Yuma thinks the train is a Capennan design, when I assumed it was built by people from Kaladesh.
As someone who feels like I don't have time to read anymore, let alone catch up with Magic Lore, I really enjoy these kinds of story overviews and enjoyed this one in particular. I had very little care or anything on my radar for this set or it's characters, but this summarizing of the story showed that it was more interesting than I originally thought. Well done team :)
The entire main story convinced me I needed another light novel of just what Amalia’s been doing this whole time, first on Ravnica and now Thunder Junction.
I like her much more than Kellan and I’d love to know what the perspective of a sheltered dusk rose vampire’s view on the Orzhov, or a completely unmapped uninhabited desert plane would be like.
And they started putting up the epilogue today!
kathleen, Ashiok was also banished from New Phyrexia by Elesh Norn for exposing that she could have a nightmare (in the leadup to March of the Machine). (timestamp 50:00)
Congratulations on five hundred episodes of tap tap concede! That's a thousand taps!
There are a lot of legends because it's supposed to be a outlaw/villain set as well as a western set because of how NA centric the wild west is as a theme. Not all of these are pure evil but still aren't as cut a dry heroic as the Gideons of the world. These are the opportunistic or the misfits.
Also on the Eriette front there is a case for charming redundancy in a team.
In retrospect the weirdness of Ashiok's behaviour stands out; in the moment I had put it down to it being part of their greater plan. The mind mage tricks made it more obvious that it was Jace in disguise - he did the same mindlink group call for the Gatewatch on Innistrad.
I actually had the thought that maybe Jace's mind may have become detached from his original body and found a way to possess Ashiok. This new being was a blend of the two and perhaps more callous, setting up a new arc for Jace in the "hero living long enough to become the villian" trope as his self-justified actions to fix the damage he had caused increasingly sprial into atrocities. It'd be a gut punch for everyone who loved the amnesiac pirate.
Nashi is my favorite mtg character, as someone who just got into the whole series, and I was super happy to see him receive such a great story! When he took on Tamiyo’s occupation in his aftermath card, I worried that he would just become Tamiyo 2, but this story directly addressed that!
Nashi is someone with a lot of grief gained through what he’s been through, and there’s a profound feeling of being cheated out on a good life by forces and people outside of his control (read the Ajani story in Kaladesh where Ajani and an younger Nashi connect through shared losses, it’s amazing!!) So when he loses the best thing to happen to him, his mother, Tamiyo, it’s understandable that he’d gain even more grief from it, and how he responds to that is really great too. My worry about him turning into Tamiyo 2 is directly addressed by that becoming his main conflict. In losing his mother, his grief spurs him on to take on her duties and continually sublimate and obliterate himself so he can become Tamiyo, so that his mother could keep on living through him. He is fine with there being less Nashi and there being more Tamiyo, that’s his response to his grief. But this story actively shows that that method won’t work and won’t bring her back in any way, and that Nashi thrives on being himself over being Tamiyo. The way that is expressed through his version of story magic coming easier to him through surveillance footage not only honors Tamiyo, but is also distinctly Nashi more than anything. This is him reclaiming himself, both finding a new way to heal and thrive, and honoring Tamiyo’s true wishes for him.
Plus, my favorite line of the whole story about Nashi’s memory being fallible compared to recorded stories is fantastic! It’s such a good encapsulation on the nature of memory and how it’s expressed and passed on through stories; plus, it’s a good expression of Nashi’s grief and wanting to hold on to anything tangible of his mother, but feeling frustrated that he can’t remember literally everything. Those smaller, mundane, but constant moments are lost on him, and it’s what he craves to remember the most in detail. They’re experiences he can’t get back, which only highlights his initial desire to be less of him and be more of Tamiyo even more. God, I could gush on and on about this side story for Nashi, I love it so much~!!!
"He's a bad dragon" My brain has been permanently ruined by the internet, because I immediately thought of the line of adult toys
Browsed the comment section to type the same 🤝
Headcanon for Rakdos is that he was the big monster murder demon, but has chilled a lot and grown since the guild pact 'bound' him into moderation, learning the value of limited his destructive self and bending it more creatively. A sort of Red Death from Venture Brothers, still loves killing, but understands the rules are important, so he binds himself to those rules.
IIRC, there was confirmed to be a scrapped aftermath style set, it's what turned into the 'vault' bonus sheet. That does not explain the density of cameos.
Yeah they announced this about 2 months or so ago before we even saw the first spoilers for this set. From what they've said the only card moved into the main set and not just the BIG list is Jace
As someone who knows basically nothing of the lore, I would love a episode of TTC about what lore material people should read.
"When do you think your plan went wrong?" "Probably around the time someone thought to make Gissa and Geralf part of it"
I always figured the other guilds ceded power to Rakdos and his guild because while he is a menace to society, should an interplanar threat arrive on Ravnica, it’s really easy to point him in the threat’s general direction and tell him to go nuts.
Also the whole story was a case of Chekov’s Rakdos, and I’m here for it.
The Epilogue for this set GOES SO HARD EVERYONE GO READ IT!!!!
Where do I find that again I’m at work and figured I’d ask so I can do it on break. New to magic
Alison Luhrs came in swinging a steel chair of an Epilogue (Part 1) today! I'm really hoping for a follow-up to this episode to catch up on Alison's Epilogue!
Just as a fun fact for anyone curious since the crew here brought it up, Kaervek is still alive because his prison tower was phased out along with the rest of Zhalfir when teferi phased them out (same reason Jolrael is still alive) and he returned (and promptly escaped) when Zhalfir was brought back via swapping places with new Phyrexia.
Hey! I live in tucson az, and i love it here. It is completely worth visiting! Nosebleeds be damned!
I still believe, given the art, and the fact that Jace isn't the only telepath, and even hinted at the end of MKM, that the person who intruded wasn't Jace, but Lazav entering and stealing secrets from Proft's mind. If you compare the art, it's even more strongly suggested.
I just think Not Everything Has To Be Jace, you know?
I really badly want to hear Kathleen gosh about the epilogue story from this set now
The Rakdos arc of just going around being entertained (and probably destroying many things) before returning to ravnica with his newly founded interplanar theatre troupe to replace the cult with his new group would be wonderful
As someone who was born in the desert with cowboys i can tell you thunder junction sounds like heaven. Any humitity in the air and i become a greasy mess
holy shit read the epilogue RIGHT NOW I'm sobbing
I miss the mtg novels. I was on the JacexLiliana ship for a long time because of how well their relationship was written in Agents of Artifice.
The thing that bothers me about the mishmash of legends is that they don't NEED to make them all lore-compliant. Sure, give them new cards to sell packs, but let the story team work out if it's an "What if" scenario or if they're actually there! They could have both the vorthos and the people who only care about the cards happy.
Also, what a great episode. Sense8 and Chrono Cross mentioned, people who genuinely care about the lore and can criticize the "seams" of the story and analyze its beats. I can't wait for the next lore TTC when they get to review the Epilogues (so far we've only got chapter 1 but THEY GOT ALISON LÜRS WRITING IT).
I wait for the day they do a music/opera plane where Rakdos can be truly entertained and embrace his inner theater nerd. He seems like he would enjoy the Carmina Burana, O Fortuna.
Counterpoint: I think Jace's character rehabilitation started in Shadows/BFZ. We got to see him work in a party setting and it really opened us up to who he REALLY is
Kellan in LCI: enters stage left "oh hi guys, whatcha doin? Sounds fun! Welp gotta go!" Exits stage right
I like the idea that the Rakdos cult was doing all the crazy murder to keep Rakdos asleep but he finally woke up and was like "guys you don't have to kill him the knife juggling is pretty cool"
Fun fact: Yuma (the face commander of the Naya Deserts Precon) is the first canonically Trans Man in MTG, and his story hilariously reveals that New Capennans think transitioning involves changing your humors, leading to LoreleyWrites posting “the four humours are blood, phlegm, estradiol, and t-gel”
thats hilarious
Well now I HAVE to run this guy (kindly disregard deadname; I am just exceedingly lazy with tech stuff unless I get paid to care about it).
All the trans characters!!!
Is he from New Capenna? Is he also the first Cowboy/Gangster?
@@TheAlmightyGoiter wiki says Yuma is former Riveteer
@@TheAlmightyGoiter yes, he was fed up with the Riveteers leadership, got into a feud with them, and ran off to Thunder Junction and started a saloon
I always said that the Jace hate had nothing to do with his character and everything to do with him getting a busted planeswalker card in Jace the Mindsculptor.
And the flavor text. Maro said a long time ago that early on they would do arrogant Blue spell flavor text attributed to Ertai, and when Jace became the default Blue character they just changed to attributing him, despite not really fitting his character.
Ixalan vampires are unharmed by the sun, almost every Legion of Dusk card was set in daytime
As partially vorthosian person, I am not necessarily against Jace's return (especially if his phyresis was very impactful and consequential).
However, it was quite disappointing to me that we did not get to see Ashiok scheming and getting something they want.
I do think magic in general got gunshy about doing books after the repeating fumble that was War of the Spark. Namely I remember people complaining that it was in one book that they had to pay for, that it was in two parts and yet still felt rushed, that both the book and the cards had conflicting visions on events, and that's not even including the ChandraXNissa stuff or the fact that the fallout was so bad they had to basically retcon it away (Like they've had to for like almost every book they've ever done), and the fact that they took a break from telling stories at all for the next few sets.
That said I do think the idea of releasing books have potential. I would really like a combination of artbook like they did with amonkhet and stuff with besically the "directors cut" of the story giving the writers space to play more while still uploading the shorter version on the mothership. Hell, I'd love a book that's just all the magic short stories of one stretch of time collected into an anthology-esque book.
I expected from Kellan reaction to Ashiok something like "You cannot trust them. Thay almost destroy Eldraine" and Oko like "Well, I also tried".
I like how Magda, who doesn't appear in the Kaldheim story, has a brand new card in OTJ; even though she isn't in this story either.
If possible I would love if you could at least have part of the next TTC to talk about the epilogue that you weren’t able to cover. Thanks again for all you do!
You guys do look better now. Good job taking care of yourselves. You deserve it
Congrats on 500!!!
I am also on the camp of hating Jace until the ixalan story. But his interactions with Vraska, Gideon and Liliana were so good I was kinda missing him in the story
I think of Thunder Junction as Westworld meets Mos Eisley: the place where interplanar scum go to have a vacation on themselves and the expectations at their native planes and play cowboy tropes without real consequences
Know what I kinda wanna see now?
Ashiok meeting up with Jace, to see how they feel about their gimmick getting stolen, and if they don't think it's funny, one of these two happening: Jace arrogantly believing his more general mind powers plus what he underwent on Phyrexia makes him more than a match for Ashiok, only for Ashiok to be all "oh, you think a little torture and mental talent means you understand fear? Biiiii--"; or Ashiok absolutely convinced that they're going to break Jace in the first clash only for Jace to prove rather more resilient to fear than they expect and then use his superior skill base to mess them up.
4:25 I was fully expecting Kathleen to remain on the topic of pores.
"Hey, if you got any (pores), we would love to get..." them from you? :D
500 TTCs? Feels like just yesterday I was watching the lot of you huddled around a table talking about your commander decks.
Anyway, I think the Magic story's been in a pretty good place lately. MKM was very good and OTJ was than I expected. The Ashiok reveal genuinely got me. Though I do have to say, the high point was DEFINITELY Seanen McGuire getting to play with the Cecani twins again.
I love how the epilogue has answered several questions the crew ask, and made everything make a lot more sense.
Also, and I say this because he's my favoured commander, Ghired going to TJ and the only explanation being his card's flavour text of "The Selesnya are pricks, the Gruul are nuts. That's an omenpath... I'm outta here." is really all I need.
4:29 My brain autocompleted Kathleen's sentence with "your pores"
Also, as someone who sweats the way that Graham and Jacob do, I feel no insecurity in stating that moisturizer is likely not enough for any of us to survive on Thunder Junction. I drink several gallons of water a day and still find myself thirsty on the regular.
Rakdos is awake from his nap and finally has the opportunity to perform for an entirely new audience, away from his cult and troupe.
I love these lore episodes, they’re a great way to digest the story. I would love if Kathleen went back and did a retrospective on earlier stories like she mentioned! (DMU was a bit of a sleeper imo)
When I heard “king gizzard and the lizard wizard” I nearly fainted. I couldn’t adore you enough!! Then you gotta say that😭
I think they did a pretty good job explaining why everyone was involved , but im guessing for some, now we know it was Jace, they werent so much convinced to join as compelled to want to.
The so many dead bodies thing was also explained right after Gisa screeched about it, people bringing bodies with them from other planes.
We also dont know that Jace and Vraska planeswalked, just that they vanished. Seems likely enough has just been using the omenpaths rather than suddenly can planeswalk people
Started on Spotify and finished on TH-cam when I got home, just to get the full experience. :D
Though I've got to say, having TTC lined up straight after QWERPLINE is a hell of a ride. I keep being unsure whether I should actually take what Graham says seriously, and it doesn't feel right that the sponsor doesn't rhyme and isn't read by Beej. Consider:
"Card Kingdom's
smart bling-tonne
of art- 'n' ink-fun
Buy yourself 1000 kilos of expensive magic stuff at well-organised paper royalty!
Card Kingdom's
smart bling-tonne
of art- 'n' ink-fun
From Seattle, Washington."
To Kellan: "You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts."
1:22:00 I would laugh to see KellanQuest for his dad turn into OkoQuest for debt repayment.
As a passionate fan of Claude Shannon, I love you so freaking much. Thank you so soooooo much, Cameron
I found the story super fun and want a MOM style Rakdos and Tinybones team-up card
Speaking of looking, I saw a really old episode of Friday Nights that had Wheeler in it. (So glad he was there thank you for having him.) Oh he was just a scrawny babby. Like a normally fluffy furred animal had just been shaved. He looks very good now!
Personally I think Graham looked pretty spiffy with the cueball look, but I can understand those were otherwise not memories he'd want to relive.
I agree Annie not seeing Jace sooner isn't a plot hole, but it is a plot contrivance. This is our first story with her and we are shown she is cautious, and slow to trust, and she already knows Oko uses illusions, it feels like the only reason she doesn't give everyone a once over is so they can have the reveal later
Will you do another story time for.the epiloge ?
"Sens8" mentioned!!!
The thumbnail on this one is just *chef's kiss*
Here's the thing: co-signed on everything discussed here, but also OH MY GOD THE EPILOGUE WITH THE INVASION TREE.
OH. MY GOD.
I cannot wait for hearing reaction to this from the crew, assuming this was recorded before it came out.
we recorded this on Thursday. More lore discussion will be coming!
There needs to be a follow up for the Epilogues, those two were SO GOOD
Mark Rosewater confirmed on Tumblr that there was a cancelled Aftermath set for Thunder Junction. Jace was meant to be in it, which is why his Collector Number is out of order for a blue card
Geralf strikes me as a medic who you go to when you stub your toe and will then turn you into a zombie so that the pain of a stubbed toe or stepping on lego won't bother you as much anymore
Cameron looks amazing, handsome and scholarly … I did enjoy story
I think after so many thousands of years trying to Entertain a sleeping demon, that mortal imagination slipped and the Rakdos decided to go all murder-carnival thinking that was the only thing that could excite him anymore.
Rakdos in this set felt like Thanos from the “What if Tchalla became star lord”.
Ashiok setting up a Discord group call is sort of interesting, both as far as something traditional for "comms" in heist films (thinking in particular here of Leverage, but there's a general genre convention in a lot of modern-tech heists that if you press your ear you've got an earbud and somebody in a van is connecting all of those) but also as a reflection of an assumption from the day-to-day prevalence of slack, discord, team, zoom, etc that have people today just expecting a lot more always-on voice communication and assuming that it would be a natural application of any telepathy or the like to enable it than previously--Overly Sarcastic Productions had sort of an interesting review of the evolution of that trope in her video about "Those Dang Phones" about a year ago.
Also, their voice call psychic link has PTT: psych to think.
On the one hand, Cam's right, and we should get back to Bundles having books in them.
On the other hand, the web stories can be much closer written to "time of release", as it were, and less stress need be had between "an author might spoil a story thing" and the company that one time employed a non-zero number of pinkertons for spoiling something.
First time listening to TTC, excellent coverage of the story!
Like Graham I don't actually care but to pick at the cowboy clothes thread a bit further, simply because it's fun to do so;
There exists styles of clothing on other planes that'd be similarly functional on a cowboy world, that these characters, especially the Planeswalkers, but other folk as well, would be aware of.
You probably wouldn't need to invent a Cowboy Hat to keep the sun off, you'd just use the kind of wide brimmed hats they have on planes like Innistrad or Kamigawa. Maybe there's a strong Tarkir influence on the clothing because horses. Or maybe they're more Knightlike. It's a warm weather climate so maybe there's a strong Ixalan flavor to certain clothing styles.
But that's not the gimmick; obviously they wanted to do cowboy stuff, which you can also bend over backwards to justify if you feel the need.
I do think it'd be a neat flavor thing though if they did a mix and match when it made sense. They mention that Moonfolk womans (forgot her name) adopted rat son. What if he was fully decked out in cowpolk gear, except instead of a cowboy hat he had on a Sedge Hat because it'd serve the save sun protective purpose and his mom is from Kamigawa. If you can't picture it think of what the Wandering Emperor wore when she was just the Wanderer. That's like a really fancy version of one :p
That'd be pretty fun. If the multiverse is going to be a big thing then maybe lean hard into the melting pot nature of cultural integration. This would have been a great setting to do not just "cowboy stuff" but rather explore what "cowboy stuff in the MTG multiverse" would really be like. Give me Ixalan Dinosaur Cowboys dressed like Khans who fight with lances.
you have me at "Dinosaur Cowboys" it sells itself
Oko: Father of the Year. 😂
I agree with Kathleen's take on the story development, HOWEVER the way that the majority of players interact with the story will be through the cards and that will likely never change. So IMO the cards do have a responsibility to give a decent representation of that and cramming an entire Aftermath set into the main set when those people aren't part of the story at all is muddying the waters and I don't blame people at all for not being interested in _actually reading the story_ as a result.
Random thought while listening to this and knowing nothing else about the story: this is a holodeck episode.
Karovek was in Zhalfir, and managed to escape when Teferi unphased it.
Congratulations on 500!
Watching this after reading the epilogue chapter 2. Man that chapter filled in a bunch of holes.
Happy 500th episode! 🎉
My one complaint about the Jace reveal is that I wanted Ashiok Ashiok, but I understand they didn't want to keep Jace out while leaving some really big questions about Vraska.
After today's (and I'm guessing tomorrow's) story, I think you'll have to do a Part 2
I'd love to watch a part 2, with epilogues and maybe side stories being covered.
I've for a long time just tuned out whenever Jace shows up because I never found him interesting, but that does mean I've completely misses what ever this character reform was, so I would really like a TTC that explains why he is actually interesting now.
He was interesting before
@@Mordalon To you maybe.
Pity that this episode came out before the two great epilogue stories -written by Alison no less! Lots of the questions asked here about Jace and Vraska answers there.
Personally, I agree with a lot that was said here - these stories were pretty good, I liked the twist, and the depth that was possible was constrained by the word count, as usual. I really dislike the lack of story reason for all the other characters printed n cards. So often my reaction to a spoiler was "WHY are they here?" Kathleen is right that isn't a criticism of the stories written, which already had too large a cast, but it is a justified criticism none the less, at least imho
Karevk got released from his amber prison on zalfir during the story of it reconnecting