Dr. Joshua Coleman and How Parents Can Heal or Prevent Estrangement | Episode 166
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode, Sasha and Stella delve into the intricate world of family estrangement with psychologist and author, Dr. Joshua Coleman. Coleman's insights highlight the complexity and emotional strain of estrangement, emphasizing empathy, responsibility, and strategic communication as essential tools for parents navigating these challenging dynamics. This episode offers valuable insights and practical strategies for families coping with the heartache of alienation.
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Not new. Hippies moved into cults like Scientology and religious as well. No contact/cut off is cult behavior 101. If adult kids choose this let them as they get to choose but are also responsible for those choices. They have shown you that they are manipulative and coercive so believe them. Focus on your other kids and other enjoyable pursuits. Pain, resentment, and embarrassment is yours to work through. The goal is to beable to be loving when they change.
Amen that is the goal
❤
I agree,it seems a bit like cult behavior to me...like it's a new" thing."
As a parent in these shoes, this is such a valid comment. Thank you.
Such a helpful video. I am an alienated mother. i have read and do believe whether alienated or estranged, mothers are bonded to their children through the chemicals they shared before birth. It’s not so easy to just let go. Trust me, I wish it was.
There is a lot of social pressure to cut off your parents now. My mom was very verbally abusive to me (and everyone else in our family) and when i would mention it people's first comment was that i should cut off contact and it was like weird to them that i didnt. She was a deeply troubled and traumatized person and no it's not right that she took it out on everyone around her but i grew to understand that behavior was not about me, it was about her unresolved childhood trauma. i still wanted a relationship with her so i had a lot of boundaries in place to make that work (and for anyone who doesn't understand how boundaries work, boundaries are for you, not the other person - you don't go around telling people this is my boundary and if you cross it I'm going to punish you, that's not how healthy boundaries work and if you do that you are asking for drama. You say to yourself this is what I'm going to do to protect myself and if the other person notices and asks you why you're doing xyz then you can explain it (gently)...). Anyway when i was a kid i dreamed of my mom apologizing, acknowledging all the pain she caused me (i even tried family therapy with her but it only made things worse), so eventually i realized that was never going to happen and releasing that allowed me to love her as she was, even though i would no longer tolerate her bad behavior, which is like what dr coleman was saying about accepting the kind of relationship the other person is able to give, opposed to the fantasy or ideal relationship you think it should be. (I'm a millennial btw)
Like you, I maintained contact with my very damaged and abusive mother. I recognised in some way when I was very young that there was something very wrong with her and vowed to myself I'd never treat her as she treated me. I stayed in contact with her and took care of her needs through to the end. As far as she could, she did acknowledge my effort to help her and take care of her just before she died. She could never truly recognise or apologise sincerely for her behaviour and I accepted this was the reality, though it took me many years to do so.
Your comment is insightful, and shows that you have done a lot of reflection and introspection. I wish our daughter was as open hearted as you are. I’m convinced that these patterns are generational, like a curse, and we break them by restoring what we can and refusing to perpetrate or participate in the pattern further.
I’m both an estranged daughter and an estranged mother. My father stopped speaking to me 30 years ago; and my daughter, just last year. She lacks the will to communicate honestly nor to attempt problem solving or conflict resolution. Her father and I are heartbroken, but trying to go on with our lives without her.
Estrangement is a cruel and torturous way to punish kind and loving parents who simply don’t subscribe to the latest gender ideology. And karma is not kind to the cruel.
An insightful, mature, and compassionate way to love your mother in spite of her flaws.
My kids were swallowed up by the Ayahuasca cult masquerading as a legitimate Church where they have been conditioned to preach that their drugs are the spiritual drugs there is no reaching them the lawyer who helped legalize drugs in Oregon of course was a New York divorce attorney who stole his son from his loving mother is how he gets his jollies a Serial sexual predator the Oregon Bar Association louds as a hero he has a house on the hill where antifa can come and go taking directions from him and who they are to put the hit on I was surrounded by about 20 of them at my local grocery store sitting on a bench outside waiting for a friend to get off work called every name in the book told not to come out of my house and at the same time lawyers were trying to evict me from my own home weaponizing eviction of older women is a thing and doesn't the government participate yes it does
Nobody has to stay in abusive relations with family because it physical or sa. You’re out of your mind. Next
Estrangement is on the rise. I so glad Dr Joshua has this channel. These younger adults are so different today. It’s a very narcissistic culture
No respect. The Bible says “honor the mother and father” for centuries this has always been in the world. These kids are so lost. My son is under 40. I was a single mom. Bought my son a home to raise him in. Spoiled him on cruises and trips yearly. I feel I over compensated by over spoiling him. When the other parent is mentally ill and a drug addict as well it creates a perfect storm. A lot of kids are raised now alone. My son didn’t have the guidance of a healthy father. The brain washing and feel sorry for me son went on for years. I wish I got my son in therapy as a child.
He and I have been estranged for years. I have grandkids and am not able to see them. I made the mistake of telling my son not to yell at me and his lil boy. I stood up to him and told him not to disrespect me. Now I am cut off.
The abuse has been learned by his dad and now who my son is. Parents should never talk bad about the other one to the child. It’s heart breaking and a living torture. I pray for healing ❤️🩹 and need to try to just move on. God bless to all of us who are estranged ❤
I was one such adult child who needed to get my mother’s voice out of my head. She had borderline personality disorder, however, and it was very, VERY difficult for me and my sister to individuate in a healthy way. Her death a few years back left us with mixed feelings. Sure, her death was sad, but on the other hand the ever present, ever demanding voice was gone. It was often said to me that, as she was dying, that I should get a recording of her voice because I would miss it one day. Frankly, and I feel bad for saying this, I still do t feel so bad for the silence.
Great episode. A few years back, I had the opportunity to speak with Dr Coleman and implement a Letter of Amends and received my first reconciliation with my young adult child. However, it was not to last and reconnection has been intermittent.
Gender ideology adds a unique layer even to estrangement, and like my daughter, many children want ideological adherence from the parent and aren’t ready for the cognitive and emotional maturity required for nuanced reconnection with a parent who holds a differing worldview.
How’s that for a run on sentence?
😏😂
Bon Jovi documentary 🤘🏻
Social media has been a blessing and a curse.
In the 90s I went down this path with my parents under the influence of a well meaning but misguided therapist. Children need to be realistic about how their parents are likely to respond to this and whether they are capable of responding at all, which I think is what the child is looking for, a response that will make them feel seen, heard, acknowledged etc. My parents responded with a mute puzzled acceptance and never forgave me. I wanted them to fight for me, but they just weren't interested, they had 6 other kids and a host of grandchildren to think about and care about. If i hadn't done this I still would have suffered fairly limited disinterested parents but at least they wouldn't have hated me. As usual in the main this sort of good advice from Joshua really only benefits those able to think about it and in the main are likely to have been thoughtful parents to begin with.
this sounds so familiar. My parents had a lot of children and numerous grandchildren, so I never had any leverage to attempt cut-off. They were flawed. I am flawed. ... humans are flawed. Live & Love.
They gave you what your behavior communicated. They went on with their lives as they should.
I assumed my young adult daughter was getting these ideas from social media, but had no idea there was a whole movement online telling them No Contact (& misdiagnosing their parents as narcissists), even for non gender issues.
true omg so true
Some young people caught up in gender often believe (and are advised to believe that) their parents are abusive because the parents believe that taking hormones or a double mastectomy or genital surgery is a bad idea for their young person (that is, that likely risks outweigh likely benefits). And they have listened to the young person and did their research and learned that the young person was misinformed ("there is no other way to be happy"[false], "the regret rate is tiny" [false], "it's no big deal or danger to my health or future" [false]).
Where do you start? (I'm sorry for telling you that the benefit you were promised hasn't been seen in studies, you can't count on it in any way beyond a possible short term effect. That the regret rate hasn't been measured but appears to be significant, they aren't checking. It has a huge effect on your health as the hormones and surgery are long term stressors on your body, but again, the MDs haven't been keeping track, but the medical reports of adverse outcomes keep piling up.)
My father disowned me when I came out as gay. Well, he said I wasn't his son, that I should change my name, and that he wanted a DNA test and that sort of thing. So I didn't bother talking to him for a while. Does that mean I "cut ties" with him?
When he started talking to me again, about ten years later, I immediately started talking with him again. But it seemed to me he needed to make the first move. People would often tell me I was being selfish for not trying to repair the relationship when I wasn't the one who broke it up on the first place, which I found very annoying. It was on me to reach out to him, rather than on him to apologize.
We now have a cordial, but not close or warm, relationship. He has never apologized.
I'm sorry you went n in a way still go through this. Very hurtful. I'm not gay but I'm with you. He abandoned you not the other way around so the responsibility is his to make ammemds or at least try to reconnect. As I see it he is very lucky you welcomed him back after 10 years and didn't close the door permanently as many would understand ably do. You're father n you as you say have a cordial relationship but not close n this is quite understandable bc he never humbled himself to offer his son a true n genuine apology that even he knows he should have so he had deprived himself of growth n the relief he would feel bad he done so. Sounds like you have handled this very well. Good luck.
Hm, interesting interview. My mother cut off contact with her parents maybe a decade years ago in a way I (Millennial) found rather unfair and I always felt in the middle until both of my grandparents had died. And then to this day I feel angry at her for this and for... i don't know, making it somehow like I can't properly grieve or I have to grieve in secret, because to this day she talks badly about them and if I say anything in their favor or dare to say that I loved them, it's like I am a traitor. And I thought at least after they died it would be over, but now her resentment goes to my aunt, so I have another "secret" and stuck-in-the-middle relationship. So it's not just the younger generation...
But something you guys haven't really touched on, and I wonder if that isn't so much the case when it's Millennials or Gen-Z, but I found that one of the biggest reasons my mother cut them out of her life wasn't really about what they were doing, but because of her own shame. I think we (and I definitely include myself in this) can see ourselves reflected quite harshly in our parents who really know us. And if you don't want someone to really know you because you are ashamed, or deep down you know you are stuck or on the wrong path and you don't know how to get out of it and how to become a person you can be proud of, and you've already figured out that your parents can't help you with that, that means they are just watching it - and you imagine their disappointment or apathy or sadness, and that can feel deeply uncomfortable. And I felt like that had much more to do with the whole thing than any real actions my grandparent had taken, even though, of course they weren't perfect.
This is hugely insightful.
Your comment is so insightful!
I don't know how old you are but this is such a wise n insightful observation whether it applies to your Mom or not though sounds very likely. I'm 58 n only came to this suspicion about 5-6 years ago. It's rarely talked about and the people who could best explain it will rarely if ever admit it so we are left only to speculate. I have found in my life that their is really nothing I wouldn't apologize for or try to make ammemds for but I'm not sure if this is because I'm just more humble,more conscious driven person or because I really don't have anything I'm ashamed of or feel guilty for in relation to how I've treated others so it wouldn't take much for me to admit it if I hadn't already of my own accord, which I've done on few occasions. And I'm pretty confident no one in my life is sitting around waiting for an apology or amends letter from me. But I have had people cut n run from me or ghost without saying why n it always seems to be when they have done something they are ashamed of not if or when I have done something. People usually think people stop being in relationship to you when you for something they don't like and sure that's true enough but most people want to tell you in that case even if it's to tell you to *"$# off or go pound sand so if they're not it's not usually bc they are such highly evolved people who are above the drama but or just conflict avoidant (this is the case sometimes) but bc of their own shame. Many years ago my sister listta close friend of 3 yrs from high school a few months after the girl had an abortion. My sister was the only one she had told and though my sister didn't judge her and likely supportive enough when the young lady started dating another guy she little by little pushed my sister away and the only thing we could think was that she didn't want anyone around her who knew as she started in her new life with this man who she planned n did marry. Did this make her regret n shame about the abortion less? Perhaps for awhile but I doubt forever as things buried have a way of coming up. I had a similar experience with a close friend of 4 years who shared with me that she n her husband had gotten together with another couple for sex. It was pretty surprising even shocking but I handled it pretty well n not surprisingly she revealed this to me when we had been drinking. We continued the friendship for a bit afterwards and no uncomfortable feeling in my part and not like we continued to discuss it much but little by little she became less available to get together after several months I just felt something was up n I called her n left her another voicemail n finally she called back( can't recall if we spoke live or she left a voicemail) and her whole tone was one of trying to be nice about what she was saying but that there was something and it was about me but yet it wasn't really clear n she didn't seem to want to talk about it but didn't want to just never return my call. I was hurt but accepted her response. It was made more difficult by the fact that we had friends in common back in our home state 4 hrs away. I had been close friends with her cousins for 8-10 years at that time. About 9 months later their grandmother died so I drove down for the funeral to support my friends. She of course was there as well since it was her grandmother too n we were both polite as I expressed my condolences to her as well. We must have chatted a tiny bit but not much and I didn't think much more about it although it's always bittersweet to run into someone in this type situation. A few weeks or months later she called me out of the blue to apologize n said seeing me at the wake/funeral made her realize that she owed me a truthful explanation. She went on to reveal that it wasn't about me at all but that she was sorry she had told me their secret. I forget if she had told her husband who I also got along well with or any of the other details but I forgave her and told her I appreciated her being honest now. I had suspected this must have been a very difficult call for her to make and if anything I thought it made our friendship stronger. Although we lived in different states soon after that for the next 6 years of our friendship we were best friends who talked m emailed regularly and even visited in person in one another's homes several times and met up in our home state with our mutual friends, Alas however after what I would consider a disagreement or conflict at my friends 40th birthday party which we were both mature enough to not have an argument about or create a big disturbance, she told me off over the phone a few days later and ended our friendship for good. This was far more painful as we had been friends far longer at this point (10 years) had grown even closer and had shared so much love n laughter and so much an integral part of my life. and I was now 41. Again the mutual friends in common just made it more difficult. They of course didn't want to take sides n I really had no one to talk to about it. After a year or so when I was in therapy for variety of things I was discussing this and the therapist trying to help suggested I contact my former friend and ask for a better explanation and apologize to her. I did not think this was exact wise but trying to get out of my comfort zone I emailed her. She had sent me a nice Christmas card n sentiment inside along with pic of her family so I knew she didn't hate me or anything but even her warm n personal sentiment didn't give the impression she wanted to talk or try to reconnect. Anyway she left me a voicemail few days later saying she got my email but didn't think it was best to write back and get into everything and that she felt I had a lot of wonderful qualities but that the friend was no longer working for her n had become unhealthy and it's best that we not discuss it but both learn what we could from the friendship and appreciate the time we did have or something to that effect. She also said she thought it was good that I was going to therapy(lol) but not in a mean way. The therapist didn't think there was anything wrong with what seemed on the surface to be a kind answer but as a man I don't think he quite understood that I had mixed feelings about it. I felt even her answer here was not really an answer and that deep down there was far more to her ending the friendship than she had indicated or alluded to. I couldn't help recall the time 7 years ago when she preferred to have me feel it was something about me when it really wasn't. Not that I or any friend is perfect but they should also not have to be a mind reader. Years later now and knowing all I know now and how the world has changed so much since 2009, I suspect she had her own shame about something again.
Amazing commentating you two have about this ❤ Your opinions are spot on . please do more about this conflict avoidance 🎉
For anyone interested in this topic I highly recommend Trish Wood Is Critical podcast from February 2 2024. The episode is called Ann Bauer: Families Are Not Alright.
I was an audio-only listener up until very recently. Before I saw what you guys looked like, I imagined Stella having long black hair and looking kind of like Siouxsie Sioux. I don't know why. I am a fan of Siouxsie though so it's a compliment coming from me haha
Thank you for this discussion. It really does highlight the difference between the previous understanding and knowledge about Estrangement and then adding in the pit of narcissism that is gender ideology. Our children reinvent their history, literally making up abuse and trauma where none existed, so they know we are lying when we try to apologise, because there is nothing to apologise for, at least not on the scale that they invented. So by trying to acknowledge their hurt we are performing and for most of us NOT lying to our children is the main reason they estranged from us, we wouldn't celebrate the Emperors New Clothes.
@@Ddddddddd885 Don't call it nonsense just because you don't get it. You're only making yourself look the fool.
Or narcissistic parents refuse to acknowledge or don't remember what they did. Their apology is a lie because their narcissism drives them into a total lack of accountability. Like. Seriously.
You may not agree with what they remember, but that is besides the point. If you actually love your children you want to hear from them and how they feel. There is something wrong, that's what you should concentrate on - not defending yourself at all costs.
@@hardpathpoet2859 Or you're an idiot that has no clue what they're talking about and seriously thinks that they have anything of worth to add to this discussion. Like. Seriously. Literally, I mean. 🙄
@@kimberlyf4888 You don't have a clue what you're talking about. There is nothing to defend, because what they are saying is a fiction. Our children are annoyed that we don't believe that men can become women and women can become men. Reality isn't abusive, supporting their delusion is.
I am in year 5, and proud that I have regained myself despite the task of managing grief all the time. My son changed dramatically, influenced by a controlling wife. Their complaints are petty and frankly absurd.
I noticed that you feel compelled to comment n call their complaints petty n absurd but don't even list one of them. Hmm
Same Here with the controlling wife. She only cares about seeing her family.
@@helencirignano2622 first thing Josh told me when I contacted him for family therapy, "it's common", turns out to be more common than I could have imagined.
I don’t find Josh’s approach appropriate when you are dealing with an adultified, psychologically abused child who has been placed in a position of power over their rejected parent. Children, teens and young adults who have been alienated by a pathological parent against their loving healthy parent (aka parental alienation) is a different kettle of fish.
These parents are being abused - I agree with Stella O’Malley that the amends letter can be inauthentic and won’t be successfully and in fact place the parent in a worse position as they are being threatened
Josh is a beautiful human being.. literally saving parents lives from all over the world every day.
He gives so much time for free.
He genuinely cares for us all.
I've read and listened to almost everything he's done.. I'm now reconciled using his advice and techniques.. it took years but against all odds,in way, it worked as I applied it all exactly as he advises. He's a great guy so kind and supportive.
Coleman’s contempt of adult children is clear
You may not be reading this comment correctly....if you are then I dissagree. Dr. Coleman is very kind in offering free advice and support for those suffering.
@@lynnmarie1943 Joshua Coleman spreads misinformation about estrangement and that is neither kind or professional
I'm reconnected with my kids .. Joshua Colemans advice support and information is why and how.
@@Nannie-jx2px the good doesn’t make up for the bad.
Fascinated to hear about this important topic from this very qualified guest. I'll be listening along as I cook breakfast for my children!
What a spiteful comment.
I think my child wants me to admit that my blind spot is that I don't agree with trans ideology... That is where my defect lies...bc i cannot agree. I can accept its the solution hes found to make himself feel better but I see it as an escape , he doesnt want to face reality and he thinks because i reject his ideology around where he gets his new identity from I reject him.
This movement works like a cult. Love bombing, peer pressure, control, and a demand that they cancel those who disagree. Pretty terrible stuff.
I wonder if you could come up with an analogy for him or have a close friend or family member he respects do so. I'm afraid I don't have one off the top of my head. While the facts,figures n date are things to discuss n give to him regarding this decision his views about thinking you are rejecting him personally may be better explained by giving an example of something you or another family member might believe that no one had believed in all these decades n generations prior. Like that the Earth was flat or what if you believed something considered or once considered a conspiracy theory and were so convinced of it but the people around you just weren't, should you then be furious with them n think they are rejecting you. Since the beginning of time people have disagreed about any number of things and that's ok. Also sometimes some people take longer to catch up to conventional wisdom of the day( not that I'm suggesting you do just saying) unfortunately the gender thing is so personal for those experiencing this that any disagreement about it feels personal unlike a disagreement about whether UFOS exist, whether their is life on Mars or the truth n lies about global warming. They need to see this isn't about your rejecting them personally or trying to control them but fear for them. Ask them what if doctors suddenly came out and were not only saying drugs should be legal but encouraging young people to take street drugs. Should parents just wake up one day and say "Sure,no problem. Start doing cocaine n heroin" Would they really expect that? Would they do that with someone they love n care about. Try to get them to see it with analogies is what I'm trying to say. Best of luck
I don’t find Josh’s approach appropriate when you are dealing with an adultified, psychologically abused child who has been placed in a position of power over their rejected parent. Children, teens and young adults who have been alienated by a pathological parent against their loving healthy parent (aka parental alienation) is a different kettle of fish.
These parents are being abused - I agree with Stella O’Malley that the amends letter can be inauthentic and dangerous
Is it still estrangement when your adult daughter refuses to see you in person, but responds to text messages and will call now and again? My daughter won’t allow me or her father to ever visit her, but she calls each week. She only talks about how her job is going, and never asks about her brother or her father. Like calling me is a duty to excuse never seeing us.
That was my daughter, now she is full no contact for the last two years. It seems I was willing to take any attention from her before and walked on eggshells rather than tell her the truth and risk losing her.
@@aprilb6642My child wanted me to be fine with barely ever seeing my Grandchildren because the wife never liked me...when I complained about hardly seeing them and asked why I was told it's all in my head,until I would see them so comfortable with the other Grandparents they saw on a regular basis.
Asking to see them more and refusing to be ok with my Son and His wife's disrespect towards me was followed with a "no contact" request. How cold and nasty,With name calling.Who would ever want to be part of the lives of people who would abuse their Mother as this? Not I. I feel relieved not having to be in the midst of this any longer.
Can't believe Stella visits Mum's net. I suppose she has to keep up to speed on developments.
Can you get investigative journalist, Jennifer Bilek on the show?? That'd be really interesting!!
Interesting podcast. If a parent truly has cluster b personality disorder, it's actually impossible to have a HEALTHY relationship with them. Its utter futility. I'm not sure our kids know what cluster b actually is. I'd never want my confused daughter to have anything to do with cluster b, even if she thought it was me.
Also some adult children can have cluster b pd. It is heartbreaking to see how some older parents are abused😢
I don't find this helpful. I would really like to know why the parent's voice cannot be heard. If it is only going to be "on their terms" (the child), this poses immeasurable problems when the child sees through an extremely distorted lens (think concept creep), or radically distorts family history with events that never occurred, or finds ways to avoid discussing mind-blowing blatant contradictions in their behavior for which they should be held accountable rather than some alleged new system of justice. I was once told by my daughter how awful I was because I did not let her watch a particular cartoon when she was a child because I didn't deem it to be appropriate. A cartoon?? Seriously?? I think we need family interventions for children that guide them back to reality rather than anointing themselves as having been "traumatized" for the most minor of infractions.
Filial duty has evaoprated due to lack of maternal dyadic care.
❤🇬🇧
Coleman creates echo chambers for abusers. Sad
Exactly
Joshua Coleman was with Focus on the Family, which was a staunchly Christian conservative group started by Chuck Colson (Nixon’s Watergate dirty trickster). Colson found Jesus in the slammer, so FotF was hard core Republican moral-majority type stuff. FotF supported conversion therapy and staying in abusive marriages, because the bible said.
Coleman distanced himself from conversion therapy, but never apologised for the harm he did.
Yes thank you for pointing this out and speaking up. Coleman is not an expert on estrangement. He spreads propaganda about estrangement that is misleading and dangerous. He should be reported to the APA immediately
Focus on the Family was started by James Dobson - not Chuck Colson.
In my day parents would bash their kids into cis het normativity.
Dr. Coleman's advice really is of no use to the typical parents of Trans kids who listen to Stella and Sasha. His methods require the parent acknowledging wrongdoing and these parents won't even accept that their estranged kids have much happier, healthier and fuller lives post-transition, let alone that denying their identity and socially ostracizing them as minors was abusive behaviour resulting in permanent physical and psychological damage that they'll likely be dealing with the consequences of for the rest of their lives. Maybe just accept your kids as they are from the moment they have the courage to speak up for themselves and they won't become estranged the moment they become independent.
😂
Well said. Agreed
There's always a honeymoon period post-transition, where they feel relief at having done the thing that they were told would make them happy. But it doesn't last. All the actual reasons for their unhappiness are still there. And they've now got a messed up body on top of it.
They then have a choice. Admit that they made a mistake and start the long hard road to healing and self-realisation; or dig their heels in and continue to delude themselves because, to them, it's better than accepting that their worldview was flawed.
@@siobhannoble8545 Is that opinion backed up by any evidence from peer reviewed medical studies? Because long term studies consistently show a detransition rate of 1-2%. There’s ZERO evidence for the mental health and quality of life benefits of medical transition being transitory.
I think the more abusive action from parents would be to feed into their child's delusion, rather than helping them to navigate the distress that is causing them to deny themselves and believe that changing gender will solve this distress.
I just learned this morning that my 19yr old cousin just had a double mastectomy, and is on the road to testosterone. 😭
I’m terrified her parents will shut me out, they are very supportive and I’m worried they will cut off contact with me because I’m not buying trans ideology.