Yesterday we had an individual show up get food and coffee, then go off and say we were trying to poison him. He then started shouting profanities as he left the building but refused to leave the campus. Our uniformed guards finally got him moving after a brief fight. We finally got hi to the edge of our property but he kept jumping on and off to taunt the officers. We call the police but they were a full 45 minutes in response. Point is you may have deal with this for a while. Make a plan and settle in.
Hey Gregory, yes this is very true, police have to prioritize their calls, so it causes delays in response. You and your team kept him from being a continual disruption in the building and kept him from disrupting a service. So job well done !!
Here in Texas, if someone refuses to leave, it's called Trespassing and is a criminal offense. Someone must sign a complaint but, it could be the best thing to happen to the person.
Consult a lawyer for use of force laws in your jurisdiction. If you tell someone to leave, and they refuse to leave, they are trespassing. Make sure you instruct them to leave multiple times and get it on camera. Let them know they are trespassed and that you have called the police. If you initiate physical contact you may well be charged with assault and battery. And if you aren't trained in open-handed skills you may get one or more people injured leading to other claims. Make sure you understand the laws around these areas before you start using physical force.
Good to know. The lesson I learned from this video is to call the police and let them deal with the "mentally ill" person. I don't make enough money to get sued by some "mentally ill" person trying to disrupt the service, by trying to physically (hands-on) escort them out of the church building. It's amazing how the definition of assault changes to suit a narrative.
I advocate asking politely? Then informing ? “ Sir/Mam you hv to leave yes it open to the public but private property therefore we can ask you to leave”! “ if you do not leave; police will be called and you can be arrested for trespassing . It’s your choice? Having served many years ( in LE) I know ppl who hv mental episodes can appear to be cooperative then in a flash engage you physically! You cannot believe the strength of a person who is in a mental episode! And once engaged there is no time out ! Church security do not carry handcuffs, mace, baton, safety holsters to protect your gun, and training is very very basic! Years ago I spent 18 weeks in an academy now it’s 24? Then I had two weeks of orientation and 16 hours more on the range after 80 hours in the Academy. Thereafter 8 hours every 90 days , 24 hours a year defense tactics , and 16 hours annually of perishable skills! I say all that to ask can the team do an arm drag? Proper search techniques, safely? Take downs? You can not just pull a gun and shoot someone for punching you? Maybe? Why would you use deadly force? We are security not the police and we do not put hands on ppl unless they put hands on us ?
A tragic example of an over-reaction and escalation happened in April, 2023, at the Rock church in Mississippi. A man had been escorted out, and after he walked to the parking lot he turned around and headed back to the church. A church safety security volunteer went out and met the man outside the building, then punched the man in the face, and when the man ran the church volunteer shot the man in the back. AND then the volunteer ran up and kicked the dying man in the head. It was all so, so avoidable and de-escalatable. Having a ministry mindset would have gone a long way to helping the situation.
I believe this topic dovetails with the subject of capturing video of these incidents. Video evidence of encounters are increasingly important as these days of anarchy expand. To primarily rely upon timely law enforcement is not an option for us and so, deescalation may come to laying soft hands. Since the area of the city we worship in is characterized by crime and mental illness, protection of the security team and our congregation from law/legal issues has to be as important as the removal of difficult people. How do you convince church leadership to training and monitoring in church security a priority?
Thanks Stephen, great comments and I agree with you. Convincing leadership to focus / invest more in security, I think is a multi-phase process. First, we have to be doing good at the level we are at now. As we start or as we operate the security team, we need to be seen as a great compliment to the ministry as well as doing our security tasks. Then once we are seen as support to the ministry and doing a job well done, we start inserting our ideas for a little more training and cameras. When you become aware of an incident somewhere that supports your argument share it. Our ministry leaders, Priests, Pastors, have a lot on their plate and so. we need to do our job to be a benefit to many and inserting a few small requests in these areas along the way will help us get further, than all at once hitting them with big requests. My opinion......which means we should be the friendliest, we should pick up the trash in the parking lot, we should vacuum if needed before the doors open. Then we do our job as security and we are a vital part of the church and ministry.
Touching the person unless it's an immediate safety issue may not be a good idea. Unwanted touching in our state is assault and battery. Monitor and call the cops.
I'm kind of late but if you deploy OC spray inside a building you may have a lot of "collateral damage." Spray, stream or gel all work differently but inside buildings there is almost always some kind of forced air heating or cooling and that will circulate the agent widely and quickly. I am going to bet most people who carry OC sprays have never tested it and have never been exposed to it. Make sure a security team has some experience with OC spray before deploying it.
As an usher or security team member, if i put my hand on their shoulder or arm to “escort’”or ‘usher’ the person out, and then they ask me not to touch them and telling us that i’d we continue to do so then it will amount to assault and a violation of state statute; what do we do then? At what point are we escalating the situation by continueing to touch them after they told us not to put them in ‘apprehension of fear’? Do will escalate further and risk further escalation, or do we tactically retreat to allow law enforcement to mediate the situation? At what point would we run afoul of the law and risk more than a civil lawsuit? If we did so, what should we do with the video we have that shows that we initiated the physical contact and we continued afterward with some resistance yet little aggression or hitting? Will the arriving police arrest us?
This is a good question. That is probably a good question for your local LE, attorney, and insurance carrier, however, let me make several observations. 1, Touching them would not be my first move but rather to encourage them to exit the area with you. Know the law about what you can do and can't do. Remember, de-escalation is key. Evidence of your attempts to de-escalate will serve you well, as long as it truly was de-escalation (and safe to do so). Know what your state says about self-defense and if there are any laws on the books that deal specifically with house of worship disruption, etc. 2, If they are unwilling to go, tell them they are disturbing the peace and if they refuse to leave they are trespassing and WILL be arrested (assuming your pastor or church leadership has agreed with this approach - NEVER EVER bluff folks because they will call your bluff). In this, always use clear and plain language rather than code words. 3, If you are part of the safety team (acting in a security function), you probably don't need to "tactically retreat" unless there is a lethal threat, at which point the congregation should be the first to leave before the safety team. I wouldn't back off just because they are making threats to have me arrested when they are on private property, disturbing the peace, and very likely also are causing other parishioners to fear for their safety (in my state assault on the lowest level can be as simple as unwelcome contact or "purposely places another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury". Know your laws. Know your authority. Know your policies. Know your limitations ("A man's got to know his limitations." -Clint Eastwood). 4, ABSOLUTELY call LE. Matter of fact, I would call 911 as soon as you know they are being uncooperative and report an active disturbance. Request to pursue charges if it is appropriate and provide the video as evidence if they ask. 5, At a minimum, save the video in a secure place. It would also be wise to have relevant staff/volunteers document their involvement using an incident form. I am confident @ChurchSecurityAnswers has some training that deals with this to some extent (I still need to get through the training myself).
can we escort someone out bouncer style (soft hand technique/joint lock manipulation) and just put them out of the front door with no injury. if we have to take them down or tussle with them call the police, but would that be justifiable? as far as protecting the congregation goes? (Texas goes by the castle doctrine/ stand your ground doctrine.) what kind of line can we draw if a guy refuses to leave and then says dont touch me when we put a hand on shoulder and try to escort them out? can we drag him out if needed? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!
In Texas the perpetrator can be charged with disturbing the peace (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to prevent or disrupt a lawful meeting, procession, or gathering, he obstructs or interferes with the meeting, procession, or gathering by physical action or verbal utterance. (b) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. - Best practice is to avoid touching the perpetrator if at all possible. You could be civilly liable in the court of law. I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
Excellent!
Yesterday we had an individual show up get food and coffee, then go off and say we were trying to poison him. He then started shouting profanities as he left the building but refused to leave the campus. Our uniformed guards finally got him moving after a brief fight. We finally got hi to the edge of our property but he kept jumping on and off to taunt the officers. We call the police but they were a full 45 minutes in response. Point is you may have deal with this for a while. Make a plan and settle in.
Hey Gregory, yes this is very true, police have to prioritize their calls, so it causes delays in response. You and your team kept him from being a continual disruption in the building and kept him from disrupting a service. So job well done !!
Here in Texas, if someone refuses to leave, it's called Trespassing and is a criminal offense. Someone must sign a complaint but, it could be the best thing to happen to the person.
wow how Christian of you.
Good stuff. Always have to be ready for the unruly churchgoer. It happens
Especially with those charismatic types, am I right??
Thank you
Consult a lawyer for use of force laws in your jurisdiction. If you tell someone to leave, and they refuse to leave, they are trespassing. Make sure you instruct them to leave multiple times and get it on camera. Let them know they are trespassed and that you have called the police. If you initiate physical contact you may well be charged with assault and battery. And if you aren't trained in open-handed skills you may get one or more people injured leading to other claims. Make sure you understand the laws around these areas before you start using physical force.
Good to know. The lesson I learned from this video is to call the police and let them deal with the "mentally ill" person. I don't make enough money to get sued by some "mentally ill" person trying to disrupt the service, by trying to physically (hands-on) escort them out of the church building. It's amazing how the definition of assault changes to suit a narrative.
I advocate asking politely? Then informing ? “ Sir/Mam you hv to leave yes it open to the public but private property therefore we can ask you to leave”! “ if you do not leave; police will be called and you can be arrested for trespassing . It’s your choice?
Having served many years ( in LE) I know ppl who hv mental episodes can appear to be cooperative then in a flash engage you physically! You cannot believe the strength of a person who is in a mental episode! And once engaged there is no time out ! Church security do not carry handcuffs, mace, baton, safety holsters to protect your gun, and training is very very basic!
Years ago I spent 18 weeks in an academy now it’s 24? Then I had two weeks of orientation and 16 hours more on the range after 80 hours in the Academy. Thereafter 8 hours every 90 days , 24 hours a year defense tactics , and 16 hours annually of perishable skills!
I say all that to ask can the team do an arm drag? Proper search techniques, safely? Take downs? You can not just pull a gun and shoot someone for punching you? Maybe? Why would you use deadly force?
We are security not the police and we do not put hands on ppl unless they put hands on us ?
Nice job captain
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Thanks!
Wow Thanks James! Thanks for being part of the community and our team appreciates you and your support!
A tragic example of an over-reaction and escalation happened in April, 2023, at the Rock church in Mississippi. A man had been escorted out, and after he walked to the parking lot he turned around and headed back to the church. A church safety security volunteer went out and met the man outside the building, then punched the man in the face, and when the man ran the church volunteer shot the man in the back. AND then the volunteer ran up and kicked the dying man in the head. It was all so, so avoidable and de-escalatable. Having a ministry mindset would have gone a long way to helping the situation.
A lack of "ministry mindset" might not be the biggest issue here🤔🙄
I believe this topic dovetails with the subject of capturing video of these incidents. Video evidence of encounters are increasingly important as these days of anarchy expand. To primarily rely upon timely law enforcement is not an option for us and so, deescalation may come to laying soft hands. Since the area of the city we worship in is characterized by crime and mental illness, protection of the security team and our congregation from law/legal issues has to be as important as the removal of difficult people.
How do you convince church leadership to training and monitoring in church security a priority?
Thanks Stephen, great comments and I agree with you. Convincing leadership to focus / invest more in security, I think is a multi-phase process. First, we have to be doing good at the level we are at now. As we start or as we operate the security team, we need to be seen as a great compliment to the ministry as well as doing our security tasks. Then once we are seen as support to the ministry and doing a job well done, we start inserting our ideas for a little more training and cameras. When you become aware of an incident somewhere that supports your argument share it. Our ministry leaders, Priests, Pastors, have a lot on their plate and so. we need to do our job to be a benefit to many and inserting a few small requests in these areas along the way will help us get further, than all at once hitting them with big requests. My opinion......which means we should be the friendliest, we should pick up the trash in the parking lot, we should vacuum if needed before the doors open. Then we do our job as security and we are a vital part of the church and ministry.
Doesn't want to leave church? I would love to have that problem!
We have had a sheriff stationed at our church for a few months. Not sure how that happens. We do have a security team also.
We have police on site during our service, so it will be pretty quick for us to get a disruptive person arrested.
That is awesome!
Touching the person unless it's an immediate safety issue may not be a good idea. Unwanted touching in our state is assault and battery. Monitor and call the cops.
Short answer: continuum of force. You'll have to have reasons why you had to elevate your response, as needed.
Can you discuss the possible use of OC spray?
Hey Matt, yes that is a great topic idea.
I'm kind of late but if you deploy OC spray inside a building you may have a lot of "collateral damage." Spray, stream or gel all work differently but inside buildings there is almost always some kind of forced air heating or cooling and that will circulate the agent widely and quickly. I am going to bet most people who carry OC sprays have never tested it and have never been exposed to it. Make sure a security team has some experience with OC spray before deploying it.
Maybe the church might get a better respons from the police than the store. As an armed door guard, give em a squirt of OC gel, the'll leave!
"Compelled Movement"
Our plan is to call 911 and let the police remove the person if they refuse to leave and pose no iminate threat.
Great plan Michael, thank you for sharing!
Like wise Michael. We call 911with all circumstances. We're able tell someone the police are on their way as an encouragement to comply.
Isn’t placing hand on shoulder considered assault? It was when I was a security guard.
@@snowyowlz5992 A definitive answer would be great. But no doubt it depends on the jurisdiction.
@@UTubeQu1che551 In my jurisdiction it is.
As an usher or security team member, if i put my hand on their shoulder or arm to “escort’”or ‘usher’ the person out, and then they ask me not to touch them and telling us that i’d we continue to do so then it will amount to assault and a violation of state statute; what do we do then? At what point are we escalating the situation by continueing to touch them after they told us not to put them in ‘apprehension of fear’? Do will escalate further and risk further escalation, or do we tactically retreat to allow law enforcement to mediate the situation? At what point would we run afoul of the law and risk more than a civil lawsuit? If we did so, what should we do with the video we have that shows that we initiated the physical contact and we continued afterward with some resistance yet little aggression or hitting? Will the arriving police arrest us?
This is a good question. That is probably a good question for your local LE, attorney, and insurance carrier, however, let me make several observations.
1, Touching them would not be my first move but rather to encourage them to exit the area with you. Know the law about what you can do and can't do. Remember, de-escalation is key. Evidence of your attempts to de-escalate will serve you well, as long as it truly was de-escalation (and safe to do so). Know what your state says about self-defense and if there are any laws on the books that deal specifically with house of worship disruption, etc.
2, If they are unwilling to go, tell them they are disturbing the peace and if they refuse to leave they are trespassing and WILL be arrested (assuming your pastor or church leadership has agreed with this approach - NEVER EVER bluff folks because they will call your bluff). In this, always use clear and plain language rather than code words.
3, If you are part of the safety team (acting in a security function), you probably don't need to "tactically retreat" unless there is a lethal threat, at which point the congregation should be the first to leave before the safety team. I wouldn't back off just because they are making threats to have me arrested when they are on private property, disturbing the peace, and very likely also are causing other parishioners to fear for their safety (in my state assault on the lowest level can be as simple as unwelcome contact or "purposely places another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury". Know your laws. Know your authority. Know your policies. Know your limitations ("A man's got to know his limitations." -Clint Eastwood).
4, ABSOLUTELY call LE. Matter of fact, I would call 911 as soon as you know they are being uncooperative and report an active disturbance. Request to pursue charges if it is appropriate and provide the video as evidence if they ask.
5, At a minimum, save the video in a secure place. It would also be wise to have relevant staff/volunteers document their involvement using an incident form. I am confident @ChurchSecurityAnswers has some training that deals with this to some extent (I still need to get through the training myself).
can we escort someone out bouncer style (soft hand technique/joint lock manipulation) and just put them out of the front door with no injury. if we have to take them down or tussle with them call the police, but would that be justifiable? as far as protecting the congregation goes? (Texas goes by the castle doctrine/ stand your ground doctrine.) what kind of line can we draw if a guy refuses to leave and then says dont touch me when we put a hand on shoulder and try to escort them out? can we drag him out if needed?
THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!
In Texas the perpetrator can be charged with disturbing the peace (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to prevent or disrupt a lawful meeting, procession, or gathering, he obstructs or interferes with the meeting, procession, or gathering by physical action or verbal utterance. (b) An offense under this section is a Class B misdemeanor. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. - Best practice is to avoid touching the perpetrator if at all possible. You could be civilly liable in the court of law. I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
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Thank you