Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Coinbase: coinbase.com/lex to get $5 in free Bitcoin - Quip: getquip.com/lex to get first refill free - Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex and use code LEX to get special savings - NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - ExpressVPN: expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free 0:20 - Stalin and absolute power 14:17 - Dictators and genocide 38:43 - What is genocide 48:50 - Human nature and suffering 1:18:35 - Mao's Great Leap Forward 1:25:49 - North Korea 1:29:42 - Our role in fighting against atrocities 1:38:38 - China 1:42:47 - Hopes for the future and technology 1:57:40 - Advice for young people 2:00:27 - Love and tragedy
How are you going to talk about Genocide without mentioning the most successful genocide in recent history the Native Americans? Very biased. There are legitimate critiques of Soviet Union. This isn’t it.
Lex can you get an expert in Japanese history on someday to discuss the sengoku period it was a period of war that lasted a 100 years between the samurai clans it’s fascinating
@@flurnsdale3929 Thank you for your note. Just to add my two cents -- three ethnic groups fell victims of the famine -- Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Russians, which means the motifs of the famine were not ethnicity-driven. It was about industrialization and exchange of grains for machinery and technologies where the west, mostly the US, won't accept any other form of payment, but grains and gold.
@@evawind the definition of genocide is discussed in the podcast. Quoted as “the intentional destruction of an ethnic, national, racial or religious group”. It doesn’t need to be an ethnic group. Here, it would be three national groups under the Soviet Union. They were intentionally targeted and viewed as lesser than other components of the union.
I was 6 years old when USSR collapsed living in Latvia (ex Soviet Union country) We didn't know any of the shit what has been uncovered now. Truly tragic events happening in those days, worst of it is that it is still happening and nothing has been done about it. Thanks Lex for bringing this to light.
My buddy was from Czechoslovakia. He was about 13 when it collapsed. He said his family went from living in a rough concrete apartment to a castle with an indoor pool in less than a year. His dad was a scientist that worked on developing seeds for stuff like rye, barley, rice, etc. My friend thinks his dad sold the IP, seeds, etc of one or more crops he was developing/working on, and got stinking filthy rich. His dad also started a seed business that has offices and seeds growing in almost every European country. Lucky sob
I wouldn't be so sure of everything reported prior to the invasion by Germany. Much of what Norman acredits to Stalin was actually done by the Germans who scoured the countryside with teams of propaganda officers that did those thing largely implicated as Stalin had done. It would appear that if the Ukrainians were savaged so badly by Stalin they would be better guarded from that experience for when the Germans occupied their area. All indications are that they weren't. This leads me to believe the Stalinist collectivism is being over portrayed in this rendition of history. Plus the fact that Stalin was a Georgian would seem he would be more mindful to Ukrainians then Russians. It seems the emworst things in history are quite often exaggerated except when the evidence is dicumented with records and photography.
@@colemclain3563 Check out the profile of the other similar comment - it seems like it's just some channel rehashing popular comments to gain subscribers
@@puneet7768 How about...I quote,you can shoot anyone who are looking for food, people were eating there own kids , body's piled up like Belson.. Thats not propaganda come on.
I must agree with the professor that Lex is a naive one. When I first started to listen to Lex's podcast, I found Lex's optimism quite annoying but after watching dozen of his videos, now I think that his optimism is one of the pillars of his charm 😊 Sending loads of love from Lithuania ❤️
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
„One overdressed naïve optimist” - Lex, you’re a brilliant man! 😂 Your podcasts have become an integral part of my life. You’re such a powerhouse of a human.
@@lucianboar3489 divide and conquer is an old idea, but I think this might be happening spontaneously as a result of several factors, there are many dangers around in the world which are bringing up the tensions in people and making them more tribal, political parties and their media satellites spread hatred towards the other group as a means of winning elections and we have the internet now which separated us in to information silos so that talking to someone from a different group brings up tons of frustrations because you are fundamentally experiencing different realities or rather different perceptions of realities.
Thank you Lex.My family is from Ukraine and never spoke of those days.Your guest is opening up my eyes to the sad part of our history.Thank you so much Norman Naimark
my family is ukranian and thats literally all my grandparents talk about. completely mentally destroyed by these dictators until the day they died over in canada.. hows your day baba? ... answer., do you know what is world war 2? .... on repeat ever single day.. like they are still trapped in the hell of it all. never to be free again so sad
I love how this old , wise and experienced man tells Lex to the face how naive he is, it's good to be naive when you are young but it's also good to be remembered you are by people who has lived more than you. This kind of interviews are really something we need more of, been able to listen to someone like Naimark talking for hours is a gift to all of us.
When I was a young girl of 23 in the early 70's I was much like Lex. I spent 3 months camping around the island of Hawaii. One night I was hitchhiking and a truck driver picked me up. He told me I should not be out at night hitching. I told him I was ok in my optimistic way. He told me I was looking at the world through rose colored glasses and that a friend of his last week had picked up a girl and raped her. He was very upset and insisted that I call my mom . So he took me to a public pay phone and waited while i talked to her then he dropped me off at my campsite still warning me to be careful. I am wiser now but still have not lost my trust in people. I just know now who to trust.
Over our evolutionary history, the old have often been wiser, more experienced, etc. but that is less and less the case in some ways over the last few hundred years and especially now. Elders in our time can often be naive and not so recently educated or witness to how the world works now, it's new dynamics and drivers. They fail to update in technology, vision, not as connected. Even the gentleman interviewed here takes the tact that sounds like "the science is settled regarding global warming"... climate change is of course real, but he's mistaking the artificial consensus in the PR messaging to the world for the actual state of the science for those actually well-versed in the multiple disciplines that are involved in climate science. We are almost certainly on a path of environmental calamity, though how it's described by the scientism and climate change PR is farcical.. to me, it's one of several attempts by Western governments and leaders to effect social control through narratives as such leaders are stuck within what for them is the restrictions of rule within a democratic society where they cannot announce 5 year plans that everyone must conform to. They therefore need to manufacture consent and bring the panels of experts to give scientific legitimacy and teach it in primary school through undergraduate so the populace conforms to what they're being manipulated towards. Now I really do understand why this is pursued... we need to do something to stabilize a sustainable path to and through the future. I just wish we were all stoic enough to accept tradeoffs and do what's good for the planet and all on it. I prefer hard truths than pragmatic lies, but we're collectively rather immature
@@dndx5 I'm 32. I could be wrong in the my opinions here and I'm not "well versed" in the multiple disciplines from which climate science draws, but I think I'm past the threshold of confidence here in recognizing the pattern that we are being systematically manipulated and enduring a subversion of our society as we shift closer to a China model of social control and governance. We are bombarded with fear based messaging to mold the population in certain directions, to accept certain shifts in norms, incentivized with status rewards for virtue signaling "correct" opinion on matters where reasonable people can disagree yet we're told it's immoral to deviate from certain rapidly-formed orthodoxy that are free to be moved by entities like the New York Times on a whim. We've had a parade of invisible threats trotted out by the media and enlarged beyond reason for decades... terrorism under Bush, climate change, COVID (not that the SARS-COV2 virus doesn't exist but that the fear complex cultivated blew it considerably out of proportion), "an epidemic of racism", etc. Again, I understand a need for catalysts for collective action, but the level of top-down manipulation is polarizing, chaotic, destabilizing and has been misused for everything from empire building, distraction of the public, profiting the corporate beneficiaries of the state, reordering society. I don't trust that the social engineers are noble or above the insidious nature of power and politics to claim or use such means of breaking and rerouting institutions, laws, something like the social contract, etc. and that this will continue to derange society, bring us further from reality, and erode human rights and render unrecognizable some of the most tolerant, free and liberal societies in history.
Luck, probably, had little to do with it. Naimark is a professor at Stanford- the majority of students that gain entry to Stanford, Harvard, Yale , etc. come from the American ruling class, or business class, same thing really. You could say “ruling class” is more a generational thing if you wanted to differentiate between new money business moguls
Honestly blame social media. It made everything adversarial and combative because it added a point system to your thoughts and opinions (likes and favorites)
Absolutely correct. People are too turned up to have a discussion with someone they don’t 100% agree with. We are unable to listen and understand differing opinions. Also, people just do not know how to reason for themselves
@@darktagmaster1861 You can have conversations sometimes, you have to really be able to put yourself in their mindset. It was really hard for me to talk to anyone really so I gained the social mimicry skills to fit in. Now I use those skills to empathize and try to get to a mutual ground
With all due respect, years ago was the far better time to learn about this. We would have treated this like the flu it that turned out to be, instead of revealing so many to be go-along-get-along bootlicking NPCs.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
Lex's reaction to the pessimism of his guest is so admirable. God bless you Lex. I hope most people have a strong flame of love in their hearts that would usually overcome the garbage the world throws at them. I hope you are right Lex. I truly do.
It's so funny how Lex keep trying to have hope in humanity “but the flame”, but the professor just goes “nah son, we're scum, I'm tellin ya“ and just utterly destroys every hope. 😂
To think that there will never be another genocide is just blind naive hope. Knowing what we know about Homo Sapiens that is a zero % possibility. There will also be lots of beautiful actions and heroic ones but one day, sure as night follows day, there will be another warlord who preys on the vulnerable.
My mom lived through the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands. Neighbors who once were friendly and normal became informants and told the Nazis who was hiding Jews. After the war they acted like nothing had happened and they did nothing wrong.
@@djvincekline7338 it’s all of the above. Some people probably enjoyed ratting on people. Some people would hide people, some would just not say anything, some would actively speak out.
My in laws grew up in Nazi Germany. And even in there 90s would shake with fear of the.name Hitler😢 or Gestapo😢. It had a gripping fear even decades later. Even when they lived in united states. I heard stories from my mother in law aunt.that was horrifying😢 No wonder they would shook with fear decades later.Sad. And they were German. These leaders like Stalin and Hitler as an effect on people still today😢 very sad. Maybe lex understands just how bad these men were.
I wish this particular podcast was much longer . I could listen to this conversation with Norman Naimark for hours and hours. It´s very insightful. I too believe that there are different shades of suffering and I don´t see romance in a deep suffering. There is nothing romantic about it.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
These two men make me proud to be a human. What could anyone possibly add to this conversation? it seems to me they cover the entire spectrum of thought and feeling.
@olivegrovebear Says the misanthrope. Knowledge is not measured in quantity. You remind me of an opinion. If you have something constructive to say let's hear it.
@@mauricemorning I apologize I didn't listen to the stream , I'm automatic disqualified . its only these type of guests / topics. in MY past experience here , has always been less than authentic and more misleading with historical fact , may I stress not all interviews but most for me . I love honest dynamic conversation between knowledgeable people .. that disqualifies me from being a misanthrope . Is the word democide more appropriate here , I truly believe it is ... if you haven't witnessed democide over the past years , one has been living under the rock . I will listen to the stream now and I already hear omissions of fact . But I already enjoy the guest . thank you good sir
@olivegrovebear Yes, democide is the right word, and no, I have not witnessed it so I apologize. I too will watch again and look for deceit. I do know how evil leaders always cloak themselves under veils of decency.
@@lucianboar3489 Each time I would say we were a bit lucky that it was not even worse but it was certainly horrific. However the tech gets more powerful as time goes on and at some point I have to agree.
The idea that one man, in Germany, USSR, Cambodia, North Korea etc. Could single handedly commit these atrocities is ridiculous. The people of these countries allowed them and actively participated in them through their morality. They were morally bankrupt. I can't imagine eating another human being let alone my own children. We, as a people must have a sense of morality or we'll allow evil men to rise up.
Some believe evil can only be checked with great power but, I really am beginning to feel it is the little things of ordinary people that keeps it at bay. The every day acts of love, kindness and compassion. This was a tremendously moving episode for me because, it is truly difficult to look into the darkness of humanity and maintain hope for the future while recognizing my connection to the past. The line between good and evil truly does run through the heart of every man.
That is the best and really only way. Not a person standing up on national TV protesting and speaking power or fear tactics. LOVE thy neighbor {which is all humans} as yourself
Lex has got at least one book in him, if only the current position of his personal philosophy and how his experiences with these long form conversations has molded them.
I always get goosebumps from your and Andrew Huberman's podcasts. They are truly deep and so well-thought, that they always generate a cascade of emotions within my inner self. Thank you Lex and thanks a lot to Prof. Naimark for this meaningful conversation! ❤
59:41 I think you guys overlook the power of propaganda when it comes to Hitler's regime. I think if it were not for Goebbels, Hitler's influence over Germany may not have been nearly as fanatical. It was kind of the first time in history when propaganda, radio and striking imagery were used in concert to such great effect. You can even see this in the German postage stamps between 1933-45. Today we are swimming in propaganda in many forms so it's much more difficult to rally large groups of people together for a single unified cause, at least in the case of the USA. It also a great way to promote and perpetuate the lowest mode humans can operate in - tribalism. The Taliban have used propaganda to great effect. I think without that power of propaganda Hitler may have just kept screaming at the wall without much actually happening.
Also, the influence of the wealthy and the occult... The Thule society was instrumental in the formation of the Nazi party, as was their beliefs in underground civilizations, extraterrestrial civilizations, and other occult beliefs.
In other words, Hitler was selected by these occult societies, as well as even groomed by the Jesuits of the Vatican. A Catholic Jesuit helped Hitler write Mein Kampf.
@@jeremyt4292 Yes yes!!!! I think the supernatural is never brought into these conversations bc people are scared to say anything in reference to it. Even this man was hesitant to talk on the subject of morality. Also, through the human journey, the powers of the supernatural or unseen realm, has had the upper hand of being invisible. It’s an invisible hand that has always been involved, on the ground with the human family. Think of the story about the 2 angels that come to Sodome & Gamorah to warn the family of faithful believers. Think of the angels (GEN:6) that come down and take wives for themselves. There’s an element of the supernatural in these men throughout history. All the killers and genocides that has transpired. All that loss of life. Famines, wars, droughts, fire, genocides, floods… so much death.
1:14:00 Uhhh, that's dangerous thinking and a-historical. Germany was an advanced, if not the most advanced country (also most open minded in many regards) at the advent of the holocaust. The 9/11 terrorists were academics, law students, teachers, aeronautic students etc., Mao tried his hands on multiple different higher education schools only to become an autodidact at the local library, Hitler aspired to study, Stalin started at a religious collage, Mengele sang operas during his experiments and most (if not almost all) of the "middle management" of the German and Japanese perpetrators of genocide went not only scot-free but enjoyed long careers in the Soviet Union and USA for being valuable and highly educated assets. Imagine a //insert a person of a persecuted group// deep diving into the history of the genocides of his people - will it inspire hope or hatred? Now make him charismatic because he is studying psychology or theater. Let him find a highly paid job or nice party position... what will you end up with? A Gandhi or a Pol-Pot? Is it still a coin flip? Chinese leadership is almost entirely made up of engineers and China's youth fights fist and nail to enroll into university... yet, still the Uighurs are getting wiped out slowly but surely. Fuck look at Cesar, a person that enjoyed the highest education possible at the time. and his kill count of Gauls. Education comes with rationality and "the ultimate victory of rationality were the death factories of the holocaust" (I forgot who wrote that but it stuck with me).
I’d love to see a three way between these two with Jordan Peterson. A lot of people don’t know this but Peterson started in Political Science but after getting his Polly Sci degree he switched to psychology. He did this because he was seeking answers about the Holocaust and the tragedy in the USSR as to how could this have happened and determined it was more of a psychological question than a political one. Much of his early research centred around these issues.
Lex, as a 3x combat veteran to Afghanistan I do believe you’re right about creating strong friendships and love with those you’ve experienced war with. These days, I sit behind a computer most of the day but I find that it’s hard for me to find genuine friendships without such strong forces as war. I know, it doesn’t take war to make friendships or love but war can be togetherness while facing isolation, solving tough problems, or some sort of problem faced together.
@@Mastermindyoung14 I should imagine someone would consider that. I have a few close friends and believe it or not - I’m very happy with that. I find joy in my work and spending time with the few close friends I do have.
It takes you purposely and consciencely effort to indulge yourself to trust and love another outside the military way of life. Turn the volume down in your mind and scan the situation and issues to fit everyday civilian life. I’ve been where you are along time ago. Let go of the sense of urgency you had. Replace it with understanding and wisdom you have gained being a vet. If you apply yourself you can be in a good place in your mind and heart.
I´ll guess in war a friendship is pretty fast put the test. I see that in my own history with friendships. You´re friends but not until some situation really tested your friendship there´s always something missing which holds yourself back.
As someone that has experienced tough times myself, I can confirm this experience. Especially relationships with men that have had an easier life. I just can't respect them.
What a beautiful interview. I use the word “beautiful” and it might sound strange in this context… but this conversation was truly beautiful. Two VERY smart people with complex question and ideas. Such a pleasure it is to listen to them. But it also makes me sad that Professor Naimark said how historians cannot predict genocides, big wars, and mass murders… and it was just DAYS before another genocide of the Ukrainian people has began… Putin is similar to Stalin in so many ways… and he, too, had a chance to remain a bad, but not a genocidal leader, but he chose a path of violence just like his predecessor did…
Lenin did not promote Stalin, he even humiliated him publicly over the failure in the 1920 war with Poland and the failed dash for the rest of Europe. Stalin made sure that Lening soon ended up dumb and disabled, and then he paraded pushing him in a wheelchair, rejoicing at Vladimir's dismay and still pretending to be the loving heir. Lex's is a remarkable interviewer.
So nice you mentioned Primo Levi. I met him about 4-5 weeks before his suicide. I had the privilege to meet him. He was having a medical procedure and I visited him in the room where he was recovering. It is kind of unbelievable that I met him... I was a teenager.
Toward 2:05:00 when the topic of intensity of love and care in times of struggle came up, the book Click by Ori and Rom Brafman came to mind. In their book, the brothers evaluate what they call magical interactions (conversations where you both vibe/resonate, where things just 'click'). One of the five main factors they note is a shared framework, especially frameworks of challenging times. I think why people develop seemingly more intense feelings in these types of relationships is because of trust. While trauma bonding could be a part of it, the more profound thing I think is that when you know you can trust a person in tense times, you know you can trust them in good ones. Sure people can change after those situations, but the general notion of trust is profound. Thanks for yet another stellar conversation.
Excellent point, as the old Jew put it 'whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much!' The darker aspect that I took from Norm is that even this approximation of trustworthiness is simplistic - there's a funny anecdote by Saul Bellow in Mr. Samler's Planet where he's saved by an Anti-Semitic Polish man, significance being his Jewishness. Its a cognitive strategy; life is almost unbearable lived on the ''case-by-case" basis. Its far more efficient to assume poorly dressed African-American males in sketchy situations are most likely criminals than to give them the benefit of the doubt. Kyrie eleison!
NN has the wisdom and lifetime of preparation for his solid observations and opinions about life and human nature. Thanks for his presence in this interview.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
A couple of observations from my 50 years on the planet: Collectivism tends toward atrocity. More accurately, maybe, lack of concern for the individual does. The ideas behind the collectivism matter much less than the lack of concern for individuals. I don’t say this presuming it is a novel idea. One death is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic, after all? Democracy is not nearly as important as a concern for the individual. This is what made America unique, and what we have sadly lost. How many times does we have to watch a group of people vote for their own demise before we stop worshipping democracy as the cure for human behavior? Lex, your desire to operate with some level of love for all is a great way for individuals to proceed. Provided you do not take it to absurd levels (permitting someone evil to harm your family because you care more about their motivation, etc) of course, this is something we all should do more of.
To me it is quite simple, as soon as you have collectivist goals, you need to give a central authority enough power to wield over people in order to enforce whatever it is you decide upon. No matter how benign the aspirational goal may be or seem to be, it always has this lean towards or danger of more authoritarianism (and corruption). It's quite a simple observation really, that it amazes me that I didn't see it earlier and that more people don't see it. To me, I live in an interesting country, Germany. Post ww2 our constitution, in part was influenced culturally by the USA so much that in some ways the german constitution resembles the american constitution, though it was still thought up almost exclusively by german thinkers, americans at that time had the power to veto it and also demanded certain criteria it had to meet (rightfully so i might say). But at the same time we are heir to "social" (communistic) thought, after all, the wall was only lifted in '89 and we have a rather good social welfare system and things like that. So we are trying to balance these forces, but I now do see the proclivity of collectivism trumping the thought of individual rights and freedom. We have this push globally but different countries respond in different ways. I wish we had the right to bear arms (2nd amendment) and more thought and appreciation for freedom as a fundamental concept. Currently there are voices in politics to abolish the nurenburg code and some politicians also see the chinese model as superior (due to economic output) and take affinity with it. I must be honest, I am not certain that we won't ever do this kind of thing again.
Democracy is only a tool, what makes it work is the individuals in it. No democracy means less individuals have the power to choose. Now i believe the knowledge of the people is above any individuals and it will work slow but in the end result in a higher possibility of success instead of a few choosing for the masses. I think this is an ideal we should strive for, it is impossible to have everybody decide on everything but in grand decisions i think every member of society should have a say. Nothing is worse than many people subjected to the will of a few, which cannot possibly foresee the consequences of their decisions, much less so than the whole sum of the ones being affected by them. i agree it is a constant struggle and it has it's flaws but i still think it is the best shit choice we have, compared to the other options. I think it is wrong to believe it is the cure, yes, but i think it comes down to education and information, which can be controlled and manipulated much easier if few are in power. also about collectivism. i live in switzerland and i love being able to study basically for free and being held alive for a few bucks a month whatever sickness i get. it makes me able to contribute to society earlier and more efficient and develop the life i wanna live more freely and self directed. in the end the benefits will outweigh the cost, also for any CEO or leading individual, which has more competent and content workers for his project.
The thing people by and large refuse to come to terms with; diversity is not in fact a strength, and it is currently the weakness of the USA. You can’t flip flop sides forever. That’s what powers that be in the West seem to not understand. And it’s what’s destroying their own internally and externally.
I think this was one of his best because he actually debated. I want to see more of that. He's had people on that were less learned than this man whom he let spew a bunch of crap without challenging them.
Great work Lex and I appreciate your ability to be a great listener and the questions you ask, which really brings out the best conversation with your guests. Keep up the good work, stay humble as your podcast grows and we are looking forward to your next episode. 😊
As inconsequential as it may seem,it says alot about your character and the amount of hard work you put into the podcast when I scroll the comment section and cannot find anything negative. Keep going, Lex.
I heard Serbs being mentioned several times by Mr. Naimark during this conversation. Mostly in negative context related to the events in Bosnia and Kosovo. I know it is pointless to start any sort of dicussion, but I must mention that things are not as clear as Mr. Naimark is pointing out. I, being Serbian, feel the urge to point out that things are much more complicated and I feel the anger because my people are being labeled in such a perfidius way. I know Lex couldn't challenge Naimark's points and I do not blame him whatsoever. However, the bitter taste remains. Lex, thanks for everything you've been doing. Cheers from Serbia.
Watching this a little late. It's so interesting to hear with the last month of recent history. 💙💛💙💛 Hoping for more positive outcomes in the future and praying for those who are suffering now.
I couldn’t help but make associations to the covid response the entire podcast. I think Sapolsky’s lectures on behavioural evolution would illuminate a lot of Lex’s seemingly naive and, I’ll even say, unscientific view of human behaviour and explain much of what was discussed in this podcast. Only once you truly understand human behaviour for what it truly is, why it is so, and how it came to be from a real scientific perspective do you even stand a chance at being successful in circumventing the “flaws” we have. “flaws” in quotation because whatever behaviour(s) are wired in us, the good ones AND the bad ones, are necessarily there by the fact that we are here as we are and have outcompeted all others who are not. This stuff runs incredibly deep and you can’t just ignore it or wish it away with naive optimism or technology. It needs to be understood as deeply as possible and engineered AROUND if we want to make a serious effort in preventing it from sneaking up and rearing it’s ugly head without us noticing. One good first step would be simply awareness. It’s been clear to me in the last 2 years that this is not even on the radar of most people.
It's all in the Bible. God gave us all the answers to life. But 90% of the population has ignored and or outright rejected and many oppose the Word of God. Even if you make the choice not to accept God, everyone can learn and improve from the wisdom and knowledge granted to us from the Word of God.
Listening to this after Russian invasion of Ukraine. I appreciate how Prof. Naimark skeptically keeps pushing back at Lex's repeated intuitions that love will win in the end. Even if 90% of people in the world were to choose love but the 10% who actually run the world choose greed, power and destruction to feed their egos, then all that love is cancelled out. I can admire Lex's dogged belief in the goodness of people. But in a practical sense, one paranoid power-hungry madman in charge can make a decision that will nullify it all. It's like if all the workers in an office were enlightened and positive but the CEO and VP weren't and then just set fire to the building. Then what? it is truly depressing.
another great episode, thanks a lot Lex! Have you ever considered having a Buddhist monk or some scholar of Buddhism on? I think that would make for a great conversation, especially with your interest regarding suffering and the meaning of life.
@@numbersix8919 well tbh you cant really compare us war crimes to the topics they were discussing like the holodomer, great leap forward, Armenian genicide in turkey or the holocaust (all which occured less than 100 years ago. The usa is guilty of some terrible things but is comparatively clean when compared to some foreign nations
Lex this was incredibly powerful...so well done and beautifully communicated on both parts. I continue to be enthralled in these incredibly important conversations you are so graciously bringing to the world. Thank you.
You're arrival is timely Lex. We're in interesting times sure as shit. The interviews by you and other's around the world appear to teach two fundamental lessons; individual sovereignty beats national sovereignty, and God is Love. Fuzz
I'm halfway into the episode and I have to say this is a heavy one. It's discouraging and depressing to hear how pessimistic Naimark is about human nature although I guess not surprising given the type of work he does. Once again, I appreciate the hell out of Lex for trying to bring the light and focus on the good parts of the human spirit. Individuals like him that remind us that it is possible to live from a place of love and that we can choose to do so on a daily basis. The world changes when we all choose to live better as individuals.
History is on Norms side, sadly. Lex's exuberance and hope is to be cherished; the adults* in the room however know like Norm said that monsters lurk beneath the surface. Absolutely fantastic interview!
Mr.Norman Naimark is a good human being, liked to know a lot of new things about saddest and worst action done against humanity by one ethical group or other. made me smile , sad and thoughtful . I observed that whenever Norman get happy or make a joke he rubs his thigh with his hands. Respect for him though
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
1:10:26 - 1:10:31 "No. Ya know, I think maybe I fundamentally disagree with you." I will always hope he's wrong; always fear he's right. I feel like this is a much scarier conversation today than it was when it dropped...
A young engineer interviews an old man who studies genocide and mass rape and talks to him about the light of love inside of people. The idealism and blind optimism is galling. Lex would open up Pandora’s box and unleash all the horrors of the world and then reassure us that there is still hope.
Thank GOD we are free in the US to have these meaningful discussions to help people become educated about history { That repeats itself} and hopefully come out of a small way of thinking about only their little world. This FREEDOM was fought for and many lives were lost to achieve it. don,t let protesters, riots, certain people in government ,attempts from anyone to suppress speech, or ANY other form of freedom in this country to be taken away.
This is one of my favorite episodes. I feel like many of the world's problems would be solved if the two of you had a forum on the world's stage with all the leaders. Lex, you give me hope.
When my husband and I were predicting, for the millionth time, the outcome of something mundane, I decided to start making a note of who predicted what, when and why. For example, we both, for different reasons predicted the insurance company would not cover our roof replacement. We were both wrong, as it turned out, and I recorded it all in a folder called Nostradumbass. I think I might have stumbled upon a name for the bigger syndrome the guest describes regarding the unpredictability of major catastrophes and the predictability of people after the fact saying they predicted it.
@@crazierthan-u7571 ummmmmmm the tens of thousands of Jews that fled Germany in the mid 30s before the real madness started. 38,000 Jews sought refuge in exile in 1933; 23,000 in 1934; 20,000 in 1935. Those "know-it-alls", according to you, I presume ?
36:00 aprox. Yes, Hitler seems now a kind of clown to us, but in the 30s even smart people underestimated him and the influence such persona can have, and how fedup and mortified millions of Germans felt, so that his promises and shoutings and propaganda slogans could captivate them. Eventhough his way of exagerated speaking sounds kind if weird nowadays, the words, sentences he used were like a spell to so many.
Great conversation. I appreciate Naimark’s honest assessment and Lex’s appeal to love. It’s a battle to find character to overcome the savagery that lives in everyone. Thanks
It's amazing to me in these Lex Friedman podcasts how quickly Lex is able to bring out the humanity in the people he talks to. They start as haughty professors in lecturing mode but quickly turn into deeply emotional human beings. Respect Lex. This podcast is on a different level than anything else I've ever seen.
A shining exceeption to the stories of most conceentration camps is recorded in the WWII Japanese POW camps in Thailand. The exception occurred when a Christian presence came into the camps and led to inmates sacrificially taking care of each other. My late mentor Ernest Gordon has documented these events in several books and in the film, "To end all wars."
Watching your podcast, JRE, Huberman Lab, and Jordan Peterson has been slowly changing me from being angry, resentful, and universally critical to being more understanding, grateful, yet still skeptical. This episode hit really hard. It's crazy to think how warped our view of reality can become when we're so sheltered by the greatness of our ancestors and legends of the past. I'm so thankful for this incredible country and the opportunity it provides for leaders like yourself and others to explore and illuminate the darkness in order for us to understand ourselves and the world better. Everyone has a self-critic inside them but don't ever let that motherfucker trick you, you're seriously changing the world. Much love and thanks to you and your guests!
We are still struggling so here u go. The solution to everything: Every problem we have now focuses around the overuse of force on eachother. Force is only to be used to stop harm. Every time we go beyond what is needed to stop harm we create more of an entrenched system for control in our reality.
It is usually wrong methods for wrong reasons and in the wrong circumstances. Take systems of fines destroying trust in state bodies. The Cuban missile crisis was very similar to Russia and NATO. Also the invasion of Grenada. All involve ego, perceived threat and trust, unfortunately many don't have good skills when dealing with these areas, nor the willingness to create international frameworks.
Wow!! What an incredible talk! I have listened to it twice now and I am amazed by how much I come away feeling to have learned. ….just by listening to one 2-hour talk between two people. This just serves to illustrate how powerful something as simple as that can be when it’s the right to people and the right topic. I am amazed..
What a podcast. Somtimes history when told from fact shows us how we really are just Mammals. History paints a picture of the cuddly Lion but we should maybe get our history from an antelopes points of view
Going to save this one for Christmas morning. Get a nice fire started up, gather up the family, put on the fluffy bunny slippers and break out the Ovaltine.
I feel like the reason people sometimes hate others or groups of others, is due to their deeply held feelings/beliefs of lack and unworthiness. Due to those unacknowledged deep, dark feelings, those who hate, seem to do so because they’re mindlessly letting out parts of themselves they’re hiding from themselves, unwittingly. They feel powerless and unworthy of power, so they coldly take it from others. They feel alone and in pain, so they coldly inflict pain onto others. When people bring pain and terror into the collective reality, I believe it’s because it can no longer be contained within them. People typically aren’t even aware of these parts of themselves. Throughout my life I’ve noticed people almost always reject those parts of themselves and in doing so, they also reject SO MANY of their amazing and beautiful qualities! Every negative can also be a positive (like two sides of a coin) but if you suppress either one, you’ll get neither. I was conversing with an INTJ the other day, who said his intense drive and perfectionism is a weakness. I told him it can be either a weakness OR it can be a strength, depending on how he chooses to integrate, balance, control, utilize, develop and perceive, said quality, CONSCIOUSLY. Know self. EDIT: referencing Lex’s inquiry at around the 49min mark.
Connie Criscitello - yes exactly, and not acknowledging them and not educating ourselves on how so many become that way is why, I believe, there’s so much psychopathy running rampant and free, in our world, today. I feel like we need to deeply understand the root causes of these problems. We need to acknowledge their existence in order to get to those root causes. But that’s a terrifying prospect. No one wants to do it and I understand why. But we still need to.
We left USSR 42 years ago mostly because the “window” opened but also due to the party tyranny. You had so many chances to draw a parallel and ask your guest about tyranny of the wokeness in which we are drowning now just like we did in USSR or maybe even worse since there were no omnipotent media there.
Outstanding questions from Lex here, great interview! As someone who has read a bit about Stalin and Mao, I found this interview absolutely fascinating. On the Stalin part of the interview - I would have been interested to hear Naimark's views on how Stalin's criminal gangster past influenced the shaping of the man in absolute power. Because as a lamen on this subject, I have tended to view Stalin as a psychopathic gangter who (partly) got lucky to rise to power. As I understand it, Trotsky was dead against Stalin when Lenin was in power, because he saw Stalin as a crude, violent, peasant thug. From my limited understanding it seems that Stalin got lucky when Lenin gave him a prominent role in the party which enabled him to maneouvre against Trosky when Lenin died. I would have been interested in understanding more about this dynamic. But this kind of interview is really important for Gen Z-ers to hear, given the current moves in western countries to politically and culturally internalise the watering down of democracy and individual rights/sovereignties.
I agree. Here in the US we need to hold onto our freedom and democracy with both hands. Also to quit apologizing for our unfortunate mistakes. Because we are a FREE nation we are FREE to come above and do better as we have been doing in great strides that benefit the whole world.
I was told many years ago that the two different Democratic and Socialist governments would become closer and closer until it would be hard to tell the difference. This same man said always vote Conservative.
I find it strange that Mr. Naimark considers Stalin to be suffering from delusions, due to Stalin's belief that there were others plotting against him and seeking to undermine his power. Doesn't that just mean that Stalin had enemies? Which would be expected at that level of power? Isn't that perfectly credible? I dunno...I haven't studied any of this, just listening to a podcast. But it just sounds disingenous to me to convince the listener that Stalin had no enemies. Man, come on. I may be a nobody with no enemies like that , but I can certainly conceive of such a thing when there's real power/authority in play.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
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0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
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0:20 - Stalin and absolute power
14:17 - Dictators and genocide
38:43 - What is genocide
48:50 - Human nature and suffering
1:18:35 - Mao's Great Leap Forward
1:25:49 - North Korea
1:29:42 - Our role in fighting against atrocities
1:38:38 - China
1:42:47 - Hopes for the future and technology
1:57:40 - Advice for young people
2:00:27 - Love and tragedy
How are you going to talk about Genocide without mentioning the most successful genocide in recent history the Native Americans? Very biased. There are legitimate critiques of Soviet Union. This isn’t it.
Lex can you get an expert in Japanese history on someday to discuss the sengoku period it was a period of war that lasted a 100 years between the samurai clans it’s fascinating
i really like Norman Naimark i love his honesty thanks for the episode lex .
@@flurnsdale3929 Thank you for your note. Just to add my two cents -- three ethnic groups fell victims of the famine -- Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Russians, which means the motifs of the famine were not ethnicity-driven. It was about industrialization and exchange of grains for machinery and technologies where the west, mostly the US, won't accept any other form of payment, but grains and gold.
@@evawind the definition of genocide is discussed in the podcast. Quoted as “the intentional destruction of an ethnic, national, racial or religious group”. It doesn’t need to be an ethnic group. Here, it would be three national groups under the Soviet Union. They were intentionally targeted and viewed as lesser than other components of the union.
I was 6 years old when USSR collapsed living in Latvia (ex Soviet Union country) We didn't know any of the shit what has been uncovered now. Truly tragic events happening in those days, worst of it is that it is still happening and nothing has been done about it.
Thanks Lex for bringing this to light.
My buddy was from Czechoslovakia. He was about 13 when it collapsed. He said his family went from living in a rough concrete apartment to a castle with an indoor pool in less than a year. His dad was a scientist that worked on developing seeds for stuff like rye, barley, rice, etc. My friend thinks his dad sold the IP, seeds, etc of one or more crops he was developing/working on, and got stinking filthy rich. His dad also started a seed business that has offices and seeds growing in almost every European country. Lucky sob
Hi Sir. Take a look at the book the gulag archipeligo.
labdien from Lithuania ;)
Didn’t your country help the Nazis kill your Jewish population?
I wouldn't be so sure of everything reported prior to the invasion by Germany. Much of what Norman acredits to Stalin was actually done by the Germans who scoured the countryside with teams of propaganda officers that did those thing largely implicated as Stalin had done.
It would appear that if the Ukrainians were savaged so badly by Stalin they would be better guarded from that experience for when the Germans occupied their area.
All indications are that they weren't. This leads me to believe the Stalinist collectivism is being over portrayed in this rendition of history. Plus the fact that Stalin was a Georgian would seem he would be more mindful to Ukrainians then Russians.
It seems the emworst things in history are quite often exaggerated except when the evidence is dicumented with records and photography.
What a great conversation. Lex you're a great interviewer. Genuine, deep, respectful, confronting and personable.
RIGHT??!!
All I can do is 👍agree.
Is anyone else weirded out that there's another comment that has basically the same structure and words as this one....?
Confronting? Have you seen his Phizer CEO interview?
@@colemclain3563 Check out the profile of the other similar comment - it seems like it's just some channel rehashing popular comments to gain subscribers
I’m a recent convert to the Lex Fridman podcast. What a wealth of insight!
Lex must never forget Joe Rogan helped make him
Ye and what a wealth of one sided propergander
You got lots of content to catch up on.
Welcome to the party my brother
@@puneet7768 How about...I quote,you can shoot anyone who are looking for food, people were eating there own kids , body's piled up like Belson.. Thats not propaganda come on.
I must agree with the professor that Lex is a naive one. When I first started to listen to Lex's podcast, I found Lex's optimism quite annoying but after watching dozen of his videos, now I think that his optimism is one of the pillars of his charm 😊
Sending loads of love from Lithuania ❤️
I’d love to have him as a professor. The way he acknowledges and respects your point of view creates security. Makes me want to learn/share more.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
He BS much but most people like BS artists
@@acatrica4074can i see your phd and publications?
@@williambrock3534 What that have to do with BS?
„One overdressed naïve optimist” - Lex, you’re a brilliant man! 😂 Your podcasts have become an integral part of my life. You’re such a powerhouse of a human.
The fact that this podcast sounds so timely is terrifying.
The fact that nobody is drawing conclusions or seeing the similarities? It seems that nothing ever truly changes.
@@Syncopia which similarities are you referring to?
@@victorpaulsson01 I think dividing almost every country into two groups that increasingly hate each other...
@@Syncopia History has a tendency to repeat itself.
@@lucianboar3489 divide and conquer is an old idea, but I think this might be happening spontaneously as a result of several factors, there are many dangers around in the world which are bringing up the tensions in people and making them more tribal, political parties and their media satellites spread hatred towards the other group as a means of winning elections and we have the internet now which separated us in to information silos so that talking to someone from a different group brings up tons of frustrations because you are fundamentally experiencing different realities or rather different perceptions of realities.
Thank you Lex.My family is from Ukraine and never spoke of those days.Your guest is opening up my eyes to the sad part of our history.Thank you so much Norman Naimark
my family is ukranian and thats literally all my grandparents talk about. completely mentally destroyed by these dictators until the day they died over in canada.. hows your day baba? ... answer., do you know what is world war 2? .... on repeat ever single day.. like they are still trapped in the hell of it all. never to be free again so sad
I love how this old , wise and experienced man tells Lex to the face how naive he is, it's good to be naive when you are young but it's also good to be remembered you are by people who has lived more than you. This kind of interviews are really something we need more of, been able to listen to someone like Naimark talking for hours is a gift to all of us.
When I was a young girl of 23 in the early 70's I was much like Lex. I spent 3 months camping around the island of Hawaii. One night I was hitchhiking and a truck driver picked me up. He told me I should not be out at night hitching. I told him I was ok in my optimistic way. He told me I was looking at the world through rose colored glasses and that a friend of his last week had picked up a girl and raped her. He was very upset and insisted that I call my mom . So he took me to a public pay phone and waited while i talked to her then he dropped me off at my campsite still warning me to be careful. I am wiser now but still have not lost my trust in people. I just know now who to trust.
@@bluewaters3100 you know who to trust? Lol
Over our evolutionary history, the old have often been wiser, more experienced, etc. but that is less and less the case in some ways over the last few hundred years and especially now.
Elders in our time can often be naive and not so recently educated or witness to how the world works now, it's new dynamics and drivers. They fail to update in technology, vision, not as connected.
Even the gentleman interviewed here takes the tact that sounds like "the science is settled regarding global warming"... climate change is of course real, but he's mistaking the artificial consensus in the PR messaging to the world for the actual state of the science for those actually well-versed in the multiple disciplines that are involved in climate science.
We are almost certainly on a path of environmental calamity, though how it's described by the scientism and climate change PR is farcical.. to me, it's one of several attempts by Western governments and leaders to effect social control through narratives as such leaders are stuck within what for them is the restrictions of rule within a democratic society where they cannot announce 5 year plans that everyone must conform to. They therefore need to manufacture consent and bring the panels of experts to give scientific legitimacy and teach it in primary school through undergraduate so the populace conforms to what they're being manipulated towards.
Now I really do understand why this is pursued... we need to do something to stabilize a sustainable path to and through the future. I just wish we were all stoic enough to accept tradeoffs and do what's good for the planet and all on it. I prefer hard truths than pragmatic lies, but we're collectively rather immature
@@jtzoltan would you consider yourself closer to Lex's age or Norman's age?
@@dndx5 I'm 32. I could be wrong in the my opinions here and I'm not "well versed" in the multiple disciplines from which climate science draws, but I think I'm past the threshold of confidence here in recognizing the pattern that we are being systematically manipulated and enduring a subversion of our society as we shift closer to a China model of social control and governance.
We are bombarded with fear based messaging to mold the population in certain directions, to accept certain shifts in norms, incentivized with status rewards for virtue signaling "correct" opinion on matters where reasonable people can disagree yet we're told it's immoral to deviate from certain rapidly-formed orthodoxy that are free to be moved by entities like the New York Times on a whim.
We've had a parade of invisible threats trotted out by the media and enlarged beyond reason for decades... terrorism under Bush, climate change, COVID (not that the SARS-COV2 virus doesn't exist but that the fear complex cultivated blew it considerably out of proportion), "an epidemic of racism", etc.
Again, I understand a need for catalysts for collective action, but the level of top-down manipulation is polarizing, chaotic, destabilizing and has been misused for everything from empire building, distraction of the public, profiting the corporate beneficiaries of the state, reordering society. I don't trust that the social engineers are noble or above the insidious nature of power and politics to claim or use such means of breaking and rerouting institutions, laws, something like the social contract, etc. and that this will continue to derange society, bring us further from reality, and erode human rights and render unrecognizable some of the most tolerant, free and liberal societies in history.
Wow, so amazing to see Professor Naimark nearly 40 years after taking his course on Russia in college!
Lucky man.
Luck, probably, had little to do with it. Naimark is a professor at Stanford- the majority of students that gain entry to Stanford, Harvard, Yale , etc. come from the American ruling class, or business class, same thing really. You could say “ruling class” is more a generational thing if you wanted to differentiate between new money business moguls
@@darktagmaster1861 He wasn’t a professor at Stanford nearly 40 years ago.
@@darktagmaster1861 Shut up man
i was thinking the exact same thing, lol
What an excellent conversation. I'm always very grateful to have free access to such lengthy and deep conversations.
Why does it feel like this is the first time in years that I've heard two adults talking like two adults? Thank you, nice work!
Because our society sucks
Honestly blame social media. It made everything adversarial and combative because it added a point system to your thoughts and opinions (likes and favorites)
Absolutely correct. People are too turned up to have a discussion with someone they don’t 100% agree with. We are unable to listen and understand differing opinions. Also, people just do not know how to reason for themselves
@@darktagmaster1861 You can have conversations sometimes, you have to really be able to put yourself in their mindset.
It was really hard for me to talk to anyone really so I gained the social mimicry skills to fit in. Now I use those skills to empathize and try to get to a mutual ground
I feel that same way I watch an old episode of Firing Line with William F Buckley.
This is a perfect time to learn more about human behavior on a national level.
@ozmartian rational, there's a concept which seems to be severely lacking currently. Rational rationale...
With all due respect, years ago was the far better time to learn about this.
We would have treated this like the flu it that turned out to be, instead of revealing so many to be go-along-get-along bootlicking NPCs.
@@shaft9000 agreed 👍
Imagine having such a man to teach you history., I have been imagining it for the past two hours. Thanks, Lex
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
Lex's reaction to the pessimism of his guest is so admirable. God bless you Lex. I hope most people have a strong flame of love in their hearts that would usually overcome the garbage the world throws at them. I hope you are right Lex. I truly do.
It's so funny how Lex keep trying to have hope in humanity “but the flame”, but the professor just goes “nah son, we're scum, I'm tellin ya“ and just utterly destroys every hope. 😂
😂😂
Utilitarian ideology does that to people
He popped the bubble.
We are rapidly descending the path of total destruction.....
To think that there will never be another genocide is just blind naive hope. Knowing what we know about Homo Sapiens that is a zero % possibility. There will also be lots of beautiful actions and heroic ones but one day, sure as night follows day, there will be another warlord who preys on the vulnerable.
My mom lived through the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands. Neighbors who once were friendly and normal became informants and told the Nazis who was hiding Jews. After the war they acted like nothing had happened and they did nothing wrong.
@@djvincekline7338 it’s all of the above. Some people probably enjoyed ratting on people. Some people would hide people, some would just not say anything, some would actively speak out.
@@weignerleigner3037 And I am pretty sure that this is exactly how it would happen again.
My in laws grew up in Nazi Germany. And even in there 90s would shake with fear of the.name Hitler😢 or Gestapo😢. It had a gripping fear even decades later. Even when they lived in united states. I heard stories from my mother in law aunt.that was horrifying😢 No wonder they would shook with fear decades later.Sad. And they were German. These leaders like Stalin and Hitler as an effect on people still today😢 very sad. Maybe lex understands just how bad these men were.
Fidel was nothing like nothing like Stalin or Hitler
I wish this particular podcast was much longer . I could listen to this conversation with Norman Naimark for hours and hours. It´s very insightful. I too believe that there are different shades of suffering and I don´t see romance in a deep suffering. There is nothing romantic about it.
Bingo. Lex should do a deep dive on Mother Theresa.
If someone finds suffering romantic, either the one suffering or someone only watching it, that's a deep psychological disorder.
It's not romantic but it is a key to love. It gives a profound sense and better understanding of what love is when you experience the opposite.
The Lex Fridman podcast is quickly becoming my favorite podcast, great work Lex, love your choice of guests and questions.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
These two men make me proud to be a human. What could anyone possibly add to this conversation? it seems to me they cover the entire spectrum of thought and feeling.
Mandatory lethal injections could urgently be added to this politically correct conversation.
you know so little then ..
@olivegrovebear Says the misanthrope. Knowledge is not measured in quantity. You remind me of an opinion. If you have something constructive to say let's hear it.
@@mauricemorning I apologize I didn't listen to the stream , I'm automatic disqualified . its only these type of guests / topics. in MY past experience here , has always been less than authentic and more misleading with historical fact , may I stress not all interviews but most for me . I love honest dynamic conversation between knowledgeable people .. that disqualifies me from being a misanthrope . Is the word democide more appropriate here , I truly believe it is ... if you haven't witnessed democide over the past years , one has been living under the rock . I will listen to the stream now and I already hear omissions of fact . But I already enjoy the guest . thank you good sir
@olivegrovebear Yes, democide is the right word, and no, I have not witnessed it so I apologize. I too will watch again and look for deceit. I do know how evil leaders always cloak themselves under veils of decency.
I love that lex is so optimistic, but I sadly agree with some of his guests that we are not evolved enough to handle the tools we have created.
So true
yeah, a lot of people thought we reached that point at the beginning of the 20th century, then after WW1, then after WW2, then after the cold war...
True
@@lucianboar3489 Each time I would say we were a bit lucky that it was not even worse but it was certainly horrific. However the tech gets more powerful as time goes on and at some point I have to agree.
I’m also cringing that he’s so enamoured with people like Musk, calling them visionaries, creators. Tech alone will not save the world.
I love the way the professor contrasts the naive view of the future from Lex.
Meant to dip into this but stayed for the duration. Top class interviewing. Truth and insight in every question and answer. Many thanks.
The idea that one man, in Germany, USSR, Cambodia, North Korea etc. Could single handedly commit these atrocities is ridiculous.
The people of these countries allowed them and actively participated in them through their morality. They were morally bankrupt. I can't imagine eating another human being let alone my own children.
We, as a people must have a sense of morality or we'll allow evil men to rise up.
Some believe evil can only be checked with great power but, I really am beginning to feel it is the little things of ordinary people that keeps it at bay. The every day acts of love, kindness and compassion.
This was a tremendously moving episode for me because, it is truly difficult to look into the darkness of humanity and maintain hope for the future while recognizing my connection to the past. The line between good and evil truly does run through the heart of every man.
Yes! We know about death by a 1000 cuts but I believe there is hope by a 1000 healings ... Small actions are everything!
That is the best and really only way. Not a person standing up on national TV protesting and speaking power or fear tactics. LOVE thy neighbor {which is all humans} as yourself
It has to, certainly. And that's a beautiful thought
There's nothing like a Lex history podcast. Can't wait for more episodes like this one 😍😍😍
Lex has got at least one book in him, if only the current position of his personal philosophy and how his experiences with these long form conversations has molded them.
I always get goosebumps from your and Andrew Huberman's podcasts. They are truly deep and so well-thought, that they always generate a cascade of emotions within my inner self. Thank you Lex and thanks a lot to Prof. Naimark for this meaningful conversation! ❤
59:41 I think you guys overlook the power of propaganda when it comes to Hitler's regime. I think if it were not for Goebbels, Hitler's influence over Germany may not have been nearly as fanatical. It was kind of the first time in history when propaganda, radio and striking imagery were used in concert to such great effect. You can even see this in the German postage stamps between 1933-45. Today we are swimming in propaganda in many forms so it's much more difficult to rally large groups of people together for a single unified cause, at least in the case of the USA. It also a great way to promote and perpetuate the lowest mode humans can operate in - tribalism. The Taliban have used propaganda to great effect. I think without that power of propaganda Hitler may have just kept screaming at the wall without much actually happening.
Also, the influence of the wealthy and the occult... The Thule society was instrumental in the formation of the Nazi party, as was their beliefs in underground civilizations, extraterrestrial civilizations, and other occult beliefs.
In other words, Hitler was selected by these occult societies, as well as even groomed by the Jesuits of the Vatican.
A Catholic Jesuit helped Hitler write Mein Kampf.
@@jeremyt4292 Yes yes!!!! I think the supernatural is never brought into these conversations bc people are scared to say anything in reference to it.
Even this man was hesitant to talk on the subject of morality.
Also, through the human journey, the powers of the supernatural or unseen realm, has had the upper hand of being invisible.
It’s an invisible hand that has always been involved, on the ground with the human family.
Think of the story about the 2 angels that come to Sodome & Gamorah to warn the family of faithful believers.
Think of the angels (GEN:6) that come down and take wives for themselves.
There’s an element of the supernatural in these men throughout history.
All the killers and genocides that has transpired.
All that loss of life.
Famines, wars, droughts, fire, genocides, floods… so much death.
Taliban = students of Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Mao (himself a student of S, M and H), with the added benefits of social media.
I agree. Have you listened to what Jordan Peterson has to say about tribalism/
1:14:00 Uhhh, that's dangerous thinking and a-historical. Germany was an advanced, if not the most advanced country (also most open minded in many regards) at the advent of the holocaust. The 9/11 terrorists were academics, law students, teachers, aeronautic students etc., Mao tried his hands on multiple different higher education schools only to become an autodidact at the local library, Hitler aspired to study, Stalin started at a religious collage, Mengele sang operas during his experiments and most (if not almost all) of the "middle management" of the German and Japanese perpetrators of genocide went not only scot-free but enjoyed long careers in the Soviet Union and USA for being valuable and highly educated assets. Imagine a //insert a person of a persecuted group// deep diving into the history of the genocides of his people - will it inspire hope or hatred? Now make him charismatic because he is studying psychology or theater. Let him find a highly paid job or nice party position... what will you end up with? A Gandhi or a Pol-Pot? Is it still a coin flip? Chinese leadership is almost entirely made up of engineers and China's youth fights fist and nail to enroll into university... yet, still the Uighurs are getting wiped out slowly but surely. Fuck look at Cesar, a person that enjoyed the highest education possible at the time. and his kill count of Gauls. Education comes with rationality and "the ultimate victory of rationality were the death factories of the holocaust" (I forgot who wrote that but it stuck with me).
I’d love to see a three way between these two with Jordan Peterson. A lot of people don’t know this but Peterson started in Political Science but after getting his Polly Sci degree he switched to psychology. He did this because he was seeking answers about the Holocaust and the tragedy in the USSR as to how could this have happened and determined it was more of a psychological question than a political one. Much of his early research centred around these issues.
0:12
0:31
This is the kind of talk I want to listen more of in your podcast.
Lex, as a 3x combat veteran to Afghanistan I do believe you’re right about creating strong friendships and love with those you’ve experienced war with. These days, I sit behind a computer most of the day but I find that it’s hard for me to find genuine friendships without such strong forces as war. I know, it doesn’t take war to make friendships or love but war can be togetherness while facing isolation, solving tough problems, or some sort of problem faced together.
Sounds like you should put yourself outside of your desk more often
@@Mastermindyoung14 I should imagine someone would consider that. I have a few close friends and believe it or not - I’m very happy with that. I find joy in my work and spending time with the few close friends I do have.
It takes you purposely and consciencely effort to indulge yourself to trust and love another outside the military way of life. Turn the volume down in your mind and scan the situation and issues to fit everyday civilian life. I’ve been where you are along time ago. Let go of the sense of urgency you had. Replace it with understanding and wisdom you have gained being a vet. If you apply yourself you can be in a good place in your mind and heart.
I´ll guess in war a friendship is pretty fast put the test. I see that in my own history with friendships. You´re friends but not until some situation really tested your friendship there´s always something missing which holds yourself back.
As someone that has experienced tough times myself, I can confirm this experience. Especially relationships with men that have had an easier life. I just can't respect them.
Thank you for everything you do, Lex. At least in your case, love did conquer all. You're a wonderful human being.
What a beautiful interview. I use the word “beautiful” and it might sound strange in this context… but this conversation was truly beautiful. Two VERY smart people with complex question and ideas. Such a pleasure it is to listen to them. But it also makes me sad that Professor Naimark said how historians cannot predict genocides, big wars, and mass murders… and it was just DAYS before another genocide of the Ukrainian people has began… Putin is similar to Stalin in so many ways… and he, too, had a chance to remain a bad, but not a genocidal leader, but he chose a path of violence just like his predecessor did…
Lenin did not promote Stalin, he even humiliated him publicly over the failure in the 1920 war with Poland and the failed dash for the rest of Europe.
Stalin made sure that Lening soon ended up dumb and disabled, and then he paraded pushing him in a wheelchair, rejoicing at Vladimir's dismay and still pretending to be the loving heir.
Lex's is a remarkable interviewer.
Love Lex's history based discussions
So nice you mentioned Primo Levi. I met him about 4-5 weeks before his suicide. I had the privilege to meet him. He was having a medical procedure and I visited him in the room where he was recovering. It is kind of unbelievable that I met him... I was a teenager.
You were honoured.
Sei stato fortunato Luca, hai conosciuto la Storia in persona. Saluti
Toward 2:05:00 when the topic of intensity of love and care in times of struggle came up, the book Click by Ori and Rom Brafman came to mind. In their book, the brothers evaluate what they call magical interactions (conversations where you both vibe/resonate, where things just 'click'). One of the five main factors they note is a shared framework, especially frameworks of challenging times. I think why people develop seemingly more intense feelings in these types of relationships is because of trust. While trauma bonding could be a part of it, the more profound thing I think is that when you know you can trust a person in tense times, you know you can trust them in good ones. Sure people can change after those situations, but the general notion of trust is profound. Thanks for yet another stellar conversation.
Excellent point, as the old Jew put it 'whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much!'
The darker aspect that I took from Norm is that even this approximation of trustworthiness is simplistic - there's a funny anecdote by Saul Bellow in Mr. Samler's Planet where he's saved by an Anti-Semitic Polish man, significance being his Jewishness. Its a cognitive strategy; life is almost unbearable lived on the ''case-by-case" basis. Its far more efficient to assume poorly dressed African-American males in sketchy situations are most likely criminals than to give them the benefit of the doubt. Kyrie eleison!
NN has the wisdom and lifetime of preparation for his solid observations and opinions about life and human nature. Thanks for his presence in this interview.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
I graduated from college last year w a degree in history but w Lex I feel like I’m back in school and still learning
A couple of observations from my 50 years on the planet:
Collectivism tends toward atrocity. More accurately, maybe, lack of concern for the individual does. The ideas behind the collectivism matter much less than the lack of concern for individuals. I don’t say this presuming it is a novel idea. One death is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic, after all?
Democracy is not nearly as important as a concern for the individual. This is what made America unique, and what we have sadly lost. How many times does we have to watch a group of people vote for their own demise before we stop worshipping democracy as the cure for human behavior?
Lex, your desire to operate with some level of love for all is a great way for individuals to proceed. Provided you do not take it to absurd levels (permitting someone evil to harm your family because you care more about their motivation, etc) of course, this is something we all should do more of.
To me it is quite simple, as soon as you have collectivist goals, you need to give a central authority enough power to wield over people in order to enforce whatever it is you decide upon.
No matter how benign the aspirational goal may be or seem to be, it always has this lean towards or danger of more authoritarianism (and corruption).
It's quite a simple observation really, that it amazes me that I didn't see it earlier and that more people don't see it.
To me, I live in an interesting country, Germany. Post ww2 our constitution, in part was influenced culturally by the USA so much that in some ways the german constitution resembles the american constitution, though it was still thought up almost exclusively by german thinkers, americans at that time had the power to veto it and also demanded certain criteria it had to meet (rightfully so i might say).
But at the same time we are heir to "social" (communistic) thought, after all, the wall was only lifted in '89 and we have a rather good social welfare system and things like that.
So we are trying to balance these forces, but I now do see the proclivity of collectivism trumping the thought of individual rights and freedom. We have this push globally but different countries respond in different ways.
I wish we had the right to bear arms (2nd amendment) and more thought and appreciation for freedom as a fundamental concept.
Currently there are voices in politics to abolish the nurenburg code and some politicians also see the chinese model as superior (due to economic output) and take affinity with it.
I must be honest, I am not certain that we won't ever do this kind of thing again.
Democracy is only a tool, what makes it work is the individuals in it. No democracy means less individuals have the power to choose. Now i believe the knowledge of the people is above any individuals and it will work slow but in the end result in a higher possibility of success instead of a few choosing for the masses. I think this is an ideal we should strive for, it is impossible to have everybody decide on everything but in grand decisions i think every member of society should have a say. Nothing is worse than many people subjected to the will of a few, which cannot possibly foresee the consequences of their decisions, much less so than the whole sum of the ones being affected by them.
i agree it is a constant struggle and it has it's flaws but i still think it is the best shit choice we have, compared to the other options. I think it is wrong to believe it is the cure, yes, but i think it comes down to education and information, which can be controlled and manipulated much easier if few are in power.
also about collectivism. i live in switzerland and i love being able to study basically for free and being held alive for a few bucks a month whatever sickness i get. it makes me able to contribute to society earlier and more efficient and develop the life i wanna live more freely and self directed. in the end the benefits will outweigh the cost, also for any CEO or leading individual, which has more competent and content workers for his project.
@@mirrorengine thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciated reading them.
The thing people by and large refuse to come to terms with; diversity is not in fact a strength, and it is currently the weakness of the USA. You can’t flip flop sides forever. That’s what powers that be in the West seem to not understand. And it’s what’s destroying their own internally and externally.
@@brandonmay3094 without some kind of bond, you are exactly right. Freedom used to be that bond, but they’ve pretty much destroyed that.
I love conversations like this, you're doing great lex.
I think this was one of his best because he actually debated. I want to see more of that. He's had people on that were less learned than this man whom he let spew a bunch of crap without challenging them.
Thank you Lex, another wonderful podcast about topics I care about deeply. I would never have heard about Mr.Naimark unless you brought him up for us.
@Andy Godwin Already reported you.
@Andy Godwin reported again.
I love that my youtube app just autoplayed this and you got right into the conversation, now I'm watching the whole thing!
A conversation has become something that people are awe struck by. Because it's a podcast.
Great work Lex and I appreciate your ability to be a great listener and the questions you ask, which really brings out the best conversation with your guests. Keep up the good work, stay humble as your podcast grows and we are looking forward to your next episode. 😊
As inconsequential as it may seem,it says alot about your character and the amount of hard work you put into the podcast when I scroll the comment section and cannot find anything negative. Keep going, Lex.
There are a few negatives about, keep searching;)
You probably just skip over them, like reality itself
I heard Serbs being mentioned several times by Mr. Naimark during this conversation. Mostly in negative context related to the events in Bosnia and Kosovo. I know it is pointless to start any sort of dicussion, but I must mention that things are not as clear as Mr. Naimark is pointing out. I, being Serbian, feel the urge to point out that things are much more complicated and I feel the anger because my people are being labeled in such a perfidius way. I know Lex couldn't challenge Naimark's points and I do not blame him whatsoever. However, the bitter taste remains.
Lex, thanks for everything you've been doing. Cheers from Serbia.
Watching this a little late. It's so interesting to hear with the last month of recent history. 💙💛💙💛 Hoping for more positive outcomes in the future and praying for those who are suffering now.
so we are to endure this entire conversation without this expert addressing our own ongoing genocide
Hello Hammett, looking at the comment dayes, this interview took place at least three months ago. Woud ike a current follow up.
You have the best podcasts and interviews hands down. What incredible stories,insights and information. Thank you.
Thanks for another podcast, Lex! Hello from Romania
I couldn’t help but make associations to the covid response the entire podcast.
I think Sapolsky’s lectures on behavioural evolution would illuminate a lot of Lex’s seemingly naive and, I’ll even say, unscientific view of human behaviour and explain much of what was discussed in this podcast. Only once you truly understand human behaviour for what it truly is, why it is so, and how it came to be from a real scientific perspective do you even stand a chance at being successful in circumventing the “flaws” we have.
“flaws” in quotation because whatever behaviour(s) are wired in us, the good ones AND the bad ones, are necessarily there by the fact that we are here as we are and have outcompeted all others who are not. This stuff runs incredibly deep and you can’t just ignore it or wish it away with naive optimism or technology. It needs to be understood as deeply as possible and engineered AROUND if we want to make a serious effort in preventing it from sneaking up and rearing it’s ugly head without us noticing.
One good first step would be simply awareness. It’s been clear to me in the last 2 years that this is not even on the radar of most people.
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You make a good point. Lex should interview Robert Sapolsky.
@@parrhesia7477 That would be amazing
It's all in the Bible. God gave us all the answers to life. But 90% of the population has ignored and or outright rejected and many oppose the Word of God. Even if you make the choice not to accept God, everyone can learn and improve from the wisdom and knowledge granted to us from the Word of God.
Thank you for these wonderful words. I’ll have a look at Sapolsky’s
Listening to this after Russian invasion of Ukraine. I appreciate how Prof. Naimark skeptically keeps pushing back at Lex's repeated intuitions that love will win in the end. Even if 90% of people in the world were to choose love but the 10% who actually run the world choose greed, power and destruction to feed their egos, then all that love is cancelled out. I can admire Lex's dogged belief in the goodness of people. But in a practical sense, one paranoid power-hungry madman in charge can make a decision that will nullify it all. It's like if all the workers in an office were enlightened and positive but the CEO and VP weren't and then just set fire to the building. Then what? it is truly depressing.
Very interesting as usual, Mr Fridman. I would be interested in hearing a similar interview today, after the invasion of Ukraine..
Amazing interview! Lex, you really are an amazing human. Never stop asking the tough questions. 💞
another great episode, thanks a lot Lex!
Have you ever considered having a Buddhist monk or some scholar of Buddhism on? I think that would make for a great conversation, especially with your interest regarding suffering and the meaning of life.
i second this.
He can have scholars from every major religion on cause they all have to say alot of deep things about suffering and the meaing of life.
@@calistafalcontail but mostly about suffering :))
@@calistafalcontail No not scholars of all religions that would be lame, just Buddhism.
Oriental religion is an intellectual lobotomy that rejects mans focused mind.
Norman Naimark extremely honest intellectual who doesn't beat around the bush. Lucky are people who grow up in intellectual households.
@@numbersix8919 well tbh you cant really compare us war crimes to the topics they were discussing like the holodomer, great leap forward, Armenian genicide in turkey or the holocaust (all which occured less than 100 years ago. The usa is guilty of some terrible things but is comparatively clean when compared to some foreign nations
Let's keep in mind Stalin was a Georgian not a Russian and his field general in Ukraine during the Holodomor was Genrikh Yagoda an Ukrainian ...
Kruschev was I thought....
Who needs Netflix when you have Lex?
Lex this was incredibly powerful...so well done and beautifully communicated on both parts. I continue to be enthralled in these incredibly important conversations you are so graciously bringing to the world. Thank you.
You're arrival is timely Lex. We're in interesting times sure as shit. The interviews by you and other's around the world appear to teach two fundamental lessons; individual sovereignty beats national sovereignty, and God is Love. Fuzz
I like when Lex stands his ground like a boss 😎
I hope he really holds his own with the Pfizer fuck
My Name Jeff - whaaaat? He’s going to interview a pfizerling!?!? Oooh, do I ever wanna see THAT!
@@janeofthejungle4 THE Pfizer man, no less.. I hope he consults Bret Weinstein beforehand
@@mynamejeff2006 what is the name of the "pfizer man" ?
@@Humanaut. Albert Bourla I believe
I'm halfway into the episode and I have to say this is a heavy one. It's discouraging and depressing to hear how pessimistic Naimark is about human nature although I guess not surprising given the type of work he does. Once again, I appreciate the hell out of Lex for trying to bring the light and focus on the good parts of the human spirit. Individuals like him that remind us that it is possible to live from a place of love and that we can choose to do so on a daily basis. The world changes when we all choose to live better as individuals.
History is on Norms side, sadly. Lex's exuberance and hope is to be cherished; the adults* in the room however know like Norm said that monsters lurk beneath the surface. Absolutely fantastic interview!
@@Kobe29261 A little dismissive
@@josiahclarke3535 Perhaps you misunderstood me but no matter. We must all live in hope of loves victory. That was Sartres point.
@@Kobe29261 Saying "the adults in the room" is the dismissive part. Makes it seem that people who have faith in humanity are naive or child-like.
Mr.Norman Naimark is a good human being, liked to know a lot of new things about saddest and worst action done against humanity by one ethical group or other.
made me smile , sad and thoughtful . I observed that whenever Norman get happy or make a joke he rubs his thigh with his hands. Respect for him though
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
1:10:26 - 1:10:31
"No. Ya know, I think maybe I fundamentally disagree with you."
I will always hope he's wrong; always fear he's right.
I feel like this is a much scarier conversation today than it was when it dropped...
Great chemistry between these two. Quite a good conversation
A young engineer interviews an old man who studies genocide and mass rape and talks to him about the light of love inside of people. The idealism and blind optimism is galling. Lex would open up Pandora’s box and unleash all the horrors of the world and then reassure us that there is still hope.
Lex was cringe...
glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Lex was disappointing in this one.
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Exactly!
so brilliant to hear such a thoughtful discussion on these topics, able to tackle nuance and bring some enlightenment.
Thank GOD we are free in the US to have these meaningful discussions to help people become educated about history { That repeats itself} and hopefully come out of a small way of thinking about only their little world. This FREEDOM was fought for and many lives were lost to achieve it. don,t let protesters, riots, certain people in government ,attempts from anyone to suppress speech, or ANY other form of freedom in this country to be taken away.
There is no god, lol
@@darktagmaster1861 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍
@@darktagmaster1861 I feel terrible for you.
Don’t feel too bad, at least I’m not a republican or democrat
This is one of my favorite episodes. I feel like many of the world's problems would be solved if the two of you had a forum on the world's stage with all the leaders. Lex, you give me hope.
yes let’s all go to Sugar Rock Candy Mountain
When my husband and I were predicting, for the millionth time, the outcome of something mundane, I decided to start making a note of who predicted what, when and why. For example, we both, for different reasons predicted the insurance company would not cover our roof replacement. We were both wrong, as it turned out, and I recorded it all in a folder called Nostradumbass. I think I might have stumbled upon a name for the bigger syndrome the guest describes regarding the unpredictability of major catastrophes and the predictability of people after the fact saying they predicted it.
Hindsight bias is pretty much what you are describing here. The belief that an event was highly predictable after it already occured.
There are people sharp enough to predict things. Sounds like you are projecting.
Yes, Mike--I did describe hindsight bias, though that was not at work in the prediction my husband and I made about the roof.
@@seltonk5136 Who is sharp enough to predict things and what did they predict?
@@crazierthan-u7571 ummmmmmm the tens of thousands of Jews that fled Germany in the mid 30s before the real madness started. 38,000 Jews sought refuge in exile in 1933; 23,000 in 1934; 20,000 in 1935.
Those "know-it-alls", according to you, I presume ?
36:00 aprox. Yes, Hitler seems now a kind of clown to us, but in the 30s even smart people underestimated him and the influence such persona can have, and how fedup and mortified millions of Germans felt, so that his promises and shoutings and propaganda slogans could captivate them. Eventhough his way of exagerated speaking sounds kind if weird nowadays, the words, sentences he used were like a spell to so many.
What a great podcast Lex. How timely! Very important to understand. Thank you.
Thank you for this discussion. So honest, so informative, so enlightening. So deep and timely.
1:13:57 I guess this optimism didn't age well. 4 months later we see how easy it is to manipulate millions and millions of people even today...
Lex: "I believe in the inherent good in all humanity"...
Also Lex: "I prefer the company of Robots"
Lol! Never change Lex, you're a gem 💎
No he’s just another hypocrite that won’t call a spade a spade
Great conversation. I appreciate Naimark’s honest assessment and Lex’s appeal to love. It’s a battle to find character to overcome the savagery that lives in everyone. Thanks
It's amazing to me in these Lex Friedman podcasts how quickly Lex is able to bring out the humanity in the people he talks to. They start as haughty professors in lecturing mode but quickly turn into deeply emotional human beings. Respect Lex. This podcast is on a different level than anything else I've ever seen.
The episode with Carrot Top is the opposite
@@seltonk5136 lol which episode is that
A shining exceeption to the stories of most conceentration camps is recorded in the WWII Japanese POW camps in Thailand. The exception occurred when a Christian presence came into the camps and led to inmates sacrificially taking care of each other. My late mentor Ernest Gordon has documented these events in several books and in the film, "To end all wars."
One of my favorites. Thanks for everything, Lex!
The emotion on Lex's face at 21:25 hearing about what his relatives went through..dang
Yet he still thinks love prevails 🤣 as was said, he is young and naive
@@brandonmay3094 well...the USSR no longer exist , and Hitler put a bullet in his head....It seems to me like "love" prevailed
@@die4race no just the fairytale a bit longer
I saw rage, not compassion.
Watching your podcast, JRE, Huberman Lab, and Jordan Peterson has been slowly changing me from being angry, resentful, and universally critical to being more understanding, grateful, yet still skeptical. This episode hit really hard. It's crazy to think how warped our view of reality can become when we're so sheltered by the greatness of our ancestors and legends of the past. I'm so thankful for this incredible country and the opportunity it provides for leaders like yourself and others to explore and illuminate the darkness in order for us to understand ourselves and the world better. Everyone has a self-critic inside them but don't ever let that motherfucker trick you, you're seriously changing the world. Much love and thanks to you and your guests!
I agree but people like Jordan Peterson are opening the eyes of people for the good of mankind
We are still struggling so here u go. The solution to everything:
Every problem we have now focuses around the overuse of force on eachother. Force is only to be used to stop harm. Every time we go beyond what is needed to stop harm we create more of an entrenched system for control in our reality.
It is usually wrong methods for wrong reasons and in the wrong circumstances. Take systems of fines destroying trust in state bodies.
The Cuban missile crisis was very similar to Russia and NATO. Also the invasion of Grenada. All involve ego, perceived threat and trust, unfortunately many don't have good skills when dealing with these areas, nor the willingness to create international frameworks.
Wow!! What an incredible talk!
I have listened to it twice now and I am amazed by how much I come away feeling to have learned.
….just by listening to one 2-hour talk between two people.
This just serves to illustrate how powerful something as simple as that can be when it’s the right to people and the right topic.
I am amazed..
Listening to this during the ongoing war in Europe and the description of a human nature is chilling.
What a podcast. Somtimes history when told from fact shows us how we really are just Mammals. History paints a picture of the cuddly Lion but we should maybe get our history from an antelopes points of view
Everyone should listen to this episode. Great insights into the worst of what humans have done to one another
Going to save this one for Christmas morning. Get a nice fire started up, gather up the family, put on the fluffy bunny slippers and break out the Ovaltine.
Very nice vibes!
I'm sure hearing about how parents ate their children in the face of death by hunger will keep the whole family entertained!
@@prolifik6513 lmao
@@prolifik6513 "A full belly is prerequisite to all manner of good. Without that, no man knows what hunger will make him do". Alexander Pierce
Oh bless nothing like a good bit of genocide convo on christmas morning 🎉
54:33 powerful moment. I know you don't say this lightly. Thank you for your honesty and love of mankind Lex.
Zach
I love your interviews, and you allow people to talk, and you listen. Great questions Lex.
Thank you so much for consistent quality content Lex
I feel like the reason people sometimes hate others or groups of others, is due to their deeply held feelings/beliefs of lack and unworthiness. Due to those unacknowledged deep, dark feelings, those who hate, seem to do so because they’re mindlessly letting out parts of themselves they’re hiding from themselves, unwittingly. They feel powerless and unworthy of power, so they coldly take it from others. They feel alone and in pain, so they coldly inflict pain onto others. When people bring pain and terror into the collective reality, I believe it’s because it can no longer be contained within them. People typically aren’t even aware of these parts of themselves.
Throughout my life I’ve noticed people almost always reject those parts of themselves and in doing so, they also reject SO MANY of their amazing and beautiful qualities! Every negative can also be a positive (like two sides of a coin) but if you suppress either one, you’ll get neither. I was conversing with an INTJ the other day, who said his intense drive and perfectionism is a weakness. I told him it can be either a weakness OR it can be a strength, depending on how he chooses to integrate, balance, control, utilize, develop and perceive, said quality, CONSCIOUSLY. Know self.
EDIT: referencing Lex’s inquiry at around the 49min mark.
or in other words: they are psychopaths.
Connie Criscitello - yes exactly, and not acknowledging them and not educating ourselves on how so many become that way is why, I believe, there’s so much psychopathy running rampant and free, in our world, today. I feel like we need to deeply understand the root causes of these problems. We need to acknowledge their existence in order to get to those root causes. But that’s a terrifying prospect. No one wants to do it and I understand why. But we still need to.
We left USSR 42 years ago mostly because the “window” opened but also due to the party tyranny.
You had so many chances to draw a parallel and ask your guest about tyranny of the wokeness in which we are drowning now just like we did in USSR or maybe even worse since there were no omnipotent media there.
I agree entirely. 'Woke-ness' is not what it appears to be.
ALL freedom ispecially fredom of speech is the only way for people to survive
Outstanding questions from Lex here, great interview! As someone who has read a bit about Stalin and Mao, I found this interview absolutely fascinating. On the Stalin part of the interview - I would have been interested to hear Naimark's views on how Stalin's criminal gangster past influenced the shaping of the man in absolute power. Because as a lamen on this subject, I have tended to view Stalin as a psychopathic gangter who (partly) got lucky to rise to power. As I understand it, Trotsky was dead against Stalin when Lenin was in power, because he saw Stalin as a crude, violent, peasant thug. From my limited understanding it seems that Stalin got lucky when Lenin gave him a prominent role in the party which enabled him to maneouvre against Trosky when Lenin died. I would have been interested in understanding more about this dynamic. But this kind of interview is really important for Gen Z-ers to hear, given the current moves in western countries to politically and culturally internalise the watering down of democracy and individual rights/sovereignties.
I agree. Here in the US we need to hold onto our freedom and democracy with both hands. Also to quit apologizing for our unfortunate mistakes. Because we are a FREE nation we are FREE to come above and do better as we have been doing in great strides that benefit the whole world.
I was told many years ago that the two different Democratic and Socialist governments would become closer and closer until it would be hard to tell the difference. This same man said always vote Conservative.
A podcast ready just in time for work. Thank you.
Just in time for my insomnia.
I find it strange that Mr. Naimark considers Stalin to be suffering from delusions, due to Stalin's belief that there were others plotting against him and seeking to undermine his power. Doesn't that just mean that Stalin had enemies? Which would be expected at that level of power? Isn't that perfectly credible?
I dunno...I haven't studied any of this, just listening to a podcast. But it just sounds disingenous to me to convince the listener that Stalin had no enemies. Man, come on. I may be a nobody with no enemies like that , but I can certainly conceive of such a thing when there's real power/authority in play.
Thank you so much for the content Lex Fridman. I can sometimes be cynical . I must say your optimism is quite infectious.
This was a fantastic guest, Lex. Thanks for bringing him on.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...