Inflatable kayaker here, aire outfitter 2. :) I didn't realize we weren't cool. I wish you would do more inflatable kayak stuff on your channel, we are here. *raises a hand, a subscriber* but I'm new to the rafting community. I've only been rafting about 5 years. I'm older and only started because I wanted to explore the Owyhee Canyonlands and the only way to do that was to float it, extensive portages, hiking in, and doing 5 day trips made an inflatable kayak an easy choice. No rolling, umm that's why I stayed away from hard kayaks. Why aren't we cool? not as maneuverable as a hard kayak, and much easier to flip than a big boat. Especially carrying a ton of gear, we should demand more respect. Although we don't usually tackle as crazy of water, that's because we shouldn't.
Hopefully you can tell that we both like inflatable kayaking but recognize there is a lack of respect in the boating community. Do you have any ideas for inflatable kayaking videos that I can do? Did you see this video that I published last week? th-cam.com/video/qirf0pwY8ws/w-d-xo.html
I did whitewater canoeing since 1996 but recently gave it up in favor of inflatable kayaking.. don't care if it's cool or not, but I am having way more fun
I've run an NRS Bandit for 10 years now. i absolutely love it. I pushed myself up into very big water for several years and have now scaled back into III and low IV runs. I also love a good II these days just to float and see some great views. I'm with you guys 100%.I would never try to roll my IK in a rapid. IK beats packraft every time.
im new to the sport and i didn't know duckys were not cool. I would also like to add that a ducky is the same as a pacraft with a more aggressive shape.
Packrafts have waterproof/air tight zippers for storing gear inside of the tubes, so if you compare a packraft and IK of similar size the packraft is going to have a lot more carrying capacity. With a lightweight backpacking type of kit, fitting 2 weeks of food inside a packraft is no issue. I've heard of packraft groups doing entire grand canyon trips without raft support. Try doing that with something like a star outlaw, not going to happen. You need a longer IK to store all that gear.
If you are not concerned with the boat weight itself for portaging etc, what about a tandem Lynx being paddled solo? Surely that would carry more cargo weight than a pckrft?
@@GabrielJM a large/long IK is a very different boat than a packraft. At that point is more raft that kayak. Nothing wrong with that if it's what you prefer.
I'm confused. Sometimes it seems Zach refers to his Aire Bakraft as an IK, and other times not. He says he'd rather do the Grand Canyon in an IK, but I think he's referring to his Bakraft, right? Erin clearly prefers his Kopapelli backraft.
I feel like pacrafts are cool because you can backpack with them way easily. But if you aren't doing extensive expeditions or hiking, than I don't see much of an advantage of having a packraft over a ducky, other than maybe handling. I've done cool shit in both honestly, but I definitely agree with them about people thinking duckying isn't something cool to do.
packrafts are like fatbikes...they're fun... and there are people running Upper Cherry and Middle Kings, but unlike kayaks they don't have to be for gnar. Low volume class IV is super fun in a packraft
That's a hard question to answer. The flow is really hard to judge in there because the gauge is all the way in Brookings and a lot of tributaries come in that act different with rain and snowmelt. There are some very general recommendations here www.nwrafting.com/river-descriptions/chetco-river-tips-for-planning-your-trip.
I've been paddling mainly Stilettos and Sotar IKs for 25 years, and we consider it a "roll" if you hang onto your boat and are back in your boat, in control, before the end of the rapid. If you "hang" in your thigh-straps a moment after flipping, you can either maintain a grasp on your boat or ensure you and your boat are in close proximity. I also often use a paddle leash so I can use both hands to either re-flip the boat or swim and not have to worry about the paddle getting away. Short video of me taken by my son: th-cam.com/video/8KK5rWX84uA/w-d-xo.html Brian Vogt's IK Blog is full of him and his friends running Class 5: riverlog.blogspot.com My son, Jacob, doing first full IK descent of Eagle Creek: www.canoekayak.com/photos/eagle-creek/ Jacob and his girlfriend, Priscilla Macy, 3rd and 4th paddlers down the Upper Merced in Stilettos: dbpmagazineonline.com/2015/06/26/merced-part-2-by-jacob-cruser-video-by-priscilla-macy/
Apologies Aaron, but I gotta side with Zach on the question of rolling IK's. A key reason for being able to roll a conventional hardshell kayak is so you don't have to come out of the boat and swim. That's a major deal for a conventional kayaker because you cannot reboard your boat midstream. In an IK, by contrast, falling out of the boat is not as big a deal because you can often reright and reboard -- i.e. self-rescue -- in midstream without having to get to shore. Conventional kayakers rarely acknowledge this advantage that IK's have over conventional kayaks. Instead, they focus on the inability of IK's to roll. But the real point is, rolling is less essential for an IK. As to IK's being uncool, Zach, I like you am a committed IK explorer, and I think these boats rock. They're totally underappreciated. I believe the number one thing we can do is ban the name "ducky." I hate that term! I refuse to use it! You guys are great! Bill
I would also like to say the ducky that is made now is the biggest thing to happen to the sport. i would have never considered white water unless i saw a ducky. i dont run a ducky, i run a 12ft rmr because i need to fit my family, but i was shopping for the ducky and my wife got prego so i had to by a bigger boat.
Packrafts are cool. Duckies are not. It might not be right, but It's just the way it is. Unless you are Jacob Cruser, who makes the ducky incredibly cool.
Also, WV steep creeking in Thrill Seekers: th-cam.com/video/NCjKlm4x4rs/w-d-xo.html Also also, before the SUP explosion, there was Jeff Snyder who used an aire inflatable with waterski mounts for his feet, I think. He could roll standing up www.americanwhitewater.org/photos/archive/medium/16682.jpg
Zack you are spot on with IKs and being comfortable as we age a bit. Aaron seems a little jaded against IKs, but the whole "cool" argument really goes against a lot of the reason I originally loved about the ww community. Unfortunately, that sentiment seems to be more common with the younger generation. I have always paddled IKs, and made many a hard boater eat their words on their perception of ability and performance. I am a class IV paddler, and comfortable just where I am at.
that only makes Zach's point. Rolling in the pool is a totally different animal from a combat roll in difficult water. When I was hardshelling a lot, I had a 100% roll in the pool but less than satisfactory roll in anything over cl 2. I have not seen any videos of a pckrft being rolled in cl3 or more water. Would love to see any if they are available.
"You need to get with the program" IKs have all the problems of a kayak but none of the benefits. The guy in the blue jacket needs to do his homework.....Try to roll an IK...Try to carry an IK over a mountain range then run class IV.
Try and roll a packraft. It can be done in a pool but not something that is commonly done in whitewater. We guide commercial trips on the Chetco River which requires a 10 mile hike in with boats and multi-day gear. For that trip have experimented with both lightweight IKs and packrafts. I've done my homework.
@@GearGarageTV I have rolled my packraft on multiple occasions on multiple rivers. Love the Chetco. A classic packrafting Oregon run, especially like the Darlingtonia pitcher plants (Cobra Lillies?) growing like hanging gardens. Here's a video from over ten years ago of rolling a packraft: th-cam.com/video/2WBoyPTW_WY/w-d-xo.html ....but this is what the kids are doing today: th-cam.com/video/RF2QfgJndmQ/w-d-xo.html it's come a long ways!
@@romandial There are certainly some people who are pushing the limits of what is possible. I have friends that have inner tubed Cherry Creek (at normal flows) and Bald Rock Canyon (at low flows). The vast majority of packrafters are not able to roll their packrafts and (in my opinion) would benefit from the extra stability of a traditional inflatable kayaks.
I'm a duckie guy, and make fun of pack rafts. That's like being a scooter person being made fun of by roller bladers. Guarantee Roman isn't running The Upper Yough or Gauley like a lot of rookie raft guides are doing in duckies...
What book did you mention in this video? It sounds interesting. I cant seem to find it
Courting the Diamond Sow amzn.to/3h6wODv
@@GearGarageTV Thank you for time!
You two crack me up! appreciated the risk portion as well
Inflatable kayaker here, aire outfitter 2. :) I didn't realize we weren't cool. I wish you would do more inflatable kayak stuff on your channel, we are here. *raises a hand, a subscriber* but I'm new to the rafting community. I've only been rafting about 5 years. I'm older and only started because I wanted to explore the Owyhee Canyonlands and the only way to do that was to float it, extensive portages, hiking in, and doing 5 day trips made an inflatable kayak an easy choice. No rolling, umm that's why I stayed away from hard kayaks. Why aren't we cool? not as maneuverable as a hard kayak, and much easier to flip than a big boat. Especially carrying a ton of gear, we should demand more respect. Although we don't usually tackle as crazy of water, that's because we shouldn't.
Hopefully you can tell that we both like inflatable kayaking but recognize there is a lack of respect in the boating community. Do you have any ideas for inflatable kayaking videos that I can do? Did you see this video that I published last week? th-cam.com/video/qirf0pwY8ws/w-d-xo.html
I did whitewater canoeing since 1996 but recently gave it up in favor of inflatable kayaking.. don't care if it's cool or not, but I am having way more fun
Aire Lynx or Force for the win! Love this channel guys. Thanks!
Thanks!
I used a Force for a couple years. We used to joke and call it the teeter tater.
I've run an NRS Bandit for 10 years now. i absolutely love it. I pushed myself up into very big water for several years and have now scaled back into III and low IV runs. I also love a good II these days just to float and see some great views. I'm with you guys 100%.I would never try to roll my IK in a rapid. IK beats packraft every time.
Oh and duckys are rad.
Great to hear! The NRS Bandit is a nice boat.
im new to the sport and i didn't know duckys were not cool. I would also like to add that a ducky is the same as a pacraft with a more aggressive shape.
Packrafts have waterproof/air tight zippers for storing gear inside of the tubes, so if you compare a packraft and IK of similar size the packraft is going to have a lot more carrying capacity. With a lightweight backpacking type of kit, fitting 2 weeks of food inside a packraft is no issue. I've heard of packraft groups doing entire grand canyon trips without raft support. Try doing that with something like a star outlaw, not going to happen. You need a longer IK to store all that gear.
If you are not concerned with the boat weight itself for portaging etc, what about a tandem Lynx being paddled solo? Surely that would carry more cargo weight than a pckrft?
OK, I did not read that boats of similar sizes were being alluded too. I don't think there are any p rafts the size of a tandem lynx.
@@GabrielJM a large/long IK is a very different boat than a packraft. At that point is more raft that kayak. Nothing wrong with that if it's what you prefer.
I'm confused. Sometimes it seems Zach refers to his Aire Bakraft as an IK, and other times not. He says he'd rather do the Grand Canyon in an IK, but I think he's referring to his Bakraft, right? Erin clearly prefers his Kopapelli backraft.
Yes I consider a BakRaft an IK. I would rather use a BakRaft or another IK on the Grand Canyon than a traditional packraft. Sorry for the confusion.
I feel like pacrafts are cool because you can backpack with them way easily. But if you aren't doing extensive expeditions or hiking, than I don't see much of an advantage of having a packraft over a ducky, other than maybe handling. I've done cool shit in both honestly, but I definitely agree with them about people thinking duckying isn't something cool to do.
Do you think an inflatable kayak could do class 4 rapids? Or could they do grand canyon rapids?
Yes inflatable kayaks can definitely do Class 4 rapids and the Grand Canyon has been done many times in an IK.
💯Packraft!
packrafts are like fatbikes...they're fun... and there are people running Upper Cherry and Middle Kings, but unlike kayaks they don't have to be for gnar. Low volume class IV is super fun in a packraft
Hi Zach and Aaron. Good discussion. An unrelated question - what is the minimum flow for a hard shell creek kayak on the Chetco? Thanks.
That's a hard question to answer. The flow is really hard to judge in there because the gauge is all the way in Brookings and a lot of tributaries come in that act different with rain and snowmelt. There are some very general recommendations here www.nwrafting.com/river-descriptions/chetco-river-tips-for-planning-your-trip.
Thanks Zach. Rolling an inflatable kayak - th-cam.com/video/hOoBe_pSBl0/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for sending that video. I really want to hear about someone rolling in a rapid.
I've been paddling mainly Stilettos and Sotar IKs for 25 years, and we consider it a "roll" if you hang onto your boat and are back in your boat, in control, before the end of the rapid. If you "hang" in your thigh-straps a moment after flipping, you can either maintain a grasp on your boat or ensure you and your boat are in close proximity. I also often use a paddle leash so I can use both hands to either re-flip the boat or swim and not have to worry about the paddle getting away.
Short video of me taken by my son:
th-cam.com/video/8KK5rWX84uA/w-d-xo.html
Brian Vogt's IK Blog is full of him and his friends running Class 5:
riverlog.blogspot.com
My son, Jacob, doing first full IK descent of Eagle Creek:
www.canoekayak.com/photos/eagle-creek/
Jacob and his girlfriend, Priscilla Macy, 3rd and 4th paddlers down the Upper Merced in Stilettos:
dbpmagazineonline.com/2015/06/26/merced-part-2-by-jacob-cruser-video-by-priscilla-macy/
Apologies Aaron, but I gotta side with Zach on the question of rolling IK's.
A key reason for being able to roll a conventional hardshell kayak is so you don't have to come out of the boat and swim. That's a major deal for a conventional kayaker because you cannot reboard your boat midstream. In an IK, by contrast, falling out of the boat is not as big a deal because you can often reright and reboard -- i.e. self-rescue -- in midstream without having to get to shore. Conventional kayakers rarely acknowledge this advantage that IK's have over conventional kayaks. Instead, they focus on the inability of IK's to roll. But the real point is, rolling is less essential for an IK.
As to IK's being uncool, Zach, I like you am a committed IK explorer, and I think these boats rock. They're totally underappreciated. I believe the number one thing we can do is ban the name "ducky." I hate that term! I refuse to use it!
You guys are great!
Bill
Thanks for your thoughts!
I would also like to say the ducky that is made now is the biggest thing to happen to the sport. i would have never considered white water unless i saw a ducky. i dont run a ducky, i run a 12ft rmr because i need to fit my family, but i was shopping for the ducky and my wife got prego so i had to by a bigger boat.
Do you like the RMR boat? I'm thinking about getting one.
I'm going with the dude who is bringing the dutch oven hands down.
Packrafts are cool. Duckies are not. It might not be right, but It's just the way it is. Unless you are Jacob Cruser, who makes the ducky incredibly cool.
"IK" is the designation you're looking for, guys.
IK is what Nicholas Cage would call a ducky if he was a boater.
Also, WV steep creeking in Thrill Seekers: th-cam.com/video/NCjKlm4x4rs/w-d-xo.html
Also also, before the SUP explosion, there was Jeff Snyder who used an aire inflatable with waterski mounts for his feet, I think. He could roll standing up www.americanwhitewater.org/photos/archive/medium/16682.jpg
You still live in Hood River? I'm in the area looking to get into kayaking
Yes I still live in Hood River. Wet Planet in White Salmon offers kayak courses.
Watch “a token of my extreme” and then tell me duckies ain’t cool. In fact, I say they’re extra rad!! 🤘🏼
What about watter master boats or the like? Pack oar boats?
I don't have any experience with either of those
Which episode of Hammer Factor podcast were you referencing?
It's one of the Hammer Factor podcasts but I can't remember which one
Looks like this one th-cam.com/video/pApNorTPd2M/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=HammerFactor
We need a follow up to this video! I want to see if your opinion has changed any
Opinion about what?
Can you carry a donkey in your ducky ??? Might be handy if you ducky gets wrapped. 🤔
Zack you are spot on with IKs and being comfortable as we age a bit. Aaron seems a little jaded against IKs, but the whole "cool" argument really goes against a lot of the reason I originally loved about the ww community. Unfortunately, that sentiment seems to be more common with the younger generation. I have always paddled IKs, and made many a hard boater eat their words on their perception of ability and performance. I am a class IV paddler, and comfortable just where I am at.
Rolling a packraft - th-cam.com/video/SRPq_vxFF_4/w-d-xo.html
that only makes Zach's point. Rolling in the pool is a totally different animal from a combat roll in difficult water. When I was hardshelling a lot, I had a 100% roll in the pool but less than satisfactory roll in anything over cl 2. I have not seen any videos of a pckrft being rolled in cl3 or more water. Would love to see any if they are available.
"You need to get with the program" IKs have all the problems of a kayak but none of the benefits. The guy in the blue jacket needs to do his homework.....Try to roll an IK...Try to carry an IK over a mountain range then run class IV.
Try and roll a packraft. It can be done in a pool but not something that is commonly done in whitewater.
We guide commercial trips on the Chetco River which requires a 10 mile hike in with boats and multi-day gear. For that trip have experimented with both lightweight IKs and packrafts. I've done my homework.
@@GearGarageTV I have rolled my packraft on multiple occasions on multiple rivers. Love the Chetco. A classic packrafting Oregon run, especially like the Darlingtonia pitcher plants (Cobra Lillies?) growing like hanging gardens. Here's a video from over ten years ago of rolling a packraft: th-cam.com/video/2WBoyPTW_WY/w-d-xo.html ....but this is what the kids are doing today: th-cam.com/video/RF2QfgJndmQ/w-d-xo.html it's come a long ways!
@@romandial There are certainly some people who are pushing the limits of what is possible. I have friends that have inner tubed Cherry Creek (at normal flows) and Bald Rock Canyon (at low flows). The vast majority of packrafters are not able to roll their packrafts and (in my opinion) would benefit from the extra stability of a traditional inflatable kayaks.
@@GearGarageTV Zach, your last sentence is the most sensible statement in this whole thread, so far.
I'm a duckie guy, and make fun of pack rafts. That's like being a scooter person being made fun of by roller bladers.
Guarantee Roman isn't running The Upper Yough or Gauley like a lot of rookie raft guides are doing in duckies...
Found this video googling for packrafting. Just sayin.