My dads gonna kill me for this take (he was a 90s Bulls fan/MJ Stan lol) 2nd channel (Extra content) - th-cam.com/channels/LlZZVU8QBpMHVT7kdEbpSQ.html Follow me on twitter- twitter.com/RustyBUCKETS321
@@raw5889 it is though. You can make an argument for one party without pointing out the flaws of another. You actually don’t have an argument if you have to do that. You’re just being an asshole at that point.
MJ is like a storybook character, his career sounds too perfectly scripted like they wrote it all out and made a miniseries about it and Lebron is the physical freak who was seemingly hand crafted in a lab to be the perfect basketball specimen yet somehow managed to live up to all that talent and hype. If Lebron gets another finals win or carries another play-in level team (or worse) there at damn near 40 it’ll be really hard for me to argue against him
Lebron is the perfect Athlete. He has that combined with one of, if not the best basketball IQ's of all time. An absolute specimen of a basketball player. But he's lost too many times to pass MJ in my opinion
@@wilzleveliq5345 can’t really argue there, I’m just more of a fan of longevity and competition in these kinds of debates and I do think Lebron is the more complete basketball player but idk how many people would really argue that except for old heads
@@chloelittle7036 mj could pass while lebron was better at it, but mj is more complete he's better at d and he plays better OFF BALL knowing how and when to cut and move off ball and score kgf ball is a part of tje game lebron isn't near as effective off ball as Jordan just saying
Mj for me will always be the GOAT. 2 three back to back championship wins. Something lebron never did or will do. Even though lebron has gone to more he has lost as many as MJ has won. Also LJ was never able to beat of the best modern basketball teams of all time in the 17-18 Golden State. That team is pretty much the modern day chicago bulls of the 90s..
Lebron is top 2 in total points, top 7 in assist, top 10 in steals, top 11 in 3s, top 100 in blocks, top 40 in Rebs- his all around game is beyond amazing
Longevity awards. That's cool but Jordan won 6 rings in 13 years. Two of those years he was our more than half the season. Jordan did more in less time and retired twice and went back to back 3 peats twice
@@boombabitch it's part of it but it's not everything and also it's what you do in those years yes he missed the play offs and previously vgot bounced in the first round. Won a 4th ring with another super star in ad in 2020 . But he's cool just not anything to be on a greatest...
@@streetpresident8343 the fact that a player made the finals at 24 did it for 9 straight years, then won a championship at 35. And all he gets is “he missed the playoffs at 36” 🤡
Completely agree. Wish we would spend more time celebrating both of these players instead of constant comparison and reminders of their flaws. Great vid!
yea I've thought for a while now that at best you can just say that Lebron and Jordan are the best of their eras but that comparing the two directly makes no sense since the game now is totally different.
lol no. LeBron played the game like a low-quality gold-digging ho. Lap-dancing whichever team has the most assets. Desperate and pathetic. LeBron is participation medals personified.
You aren't alone on this one. I've been saying for the better part of two years that it's kinda hard to debate this when the resumes of both players are equally as impressive no matter how you look at it. It's about time that we, as basketball fans, just look at the GOAT debate and just call it as it is: pointless. There will never be a definitive GOAT, no matter what you do to try and stupidly and pointlessly tear down another person's accomplishments. If you think LeBron, Kareem, Mike, Bill, or even Kobe is the GOAT, it shouldn't really matter because the debate is very subjective.
Nah. MJ is clearly the GOAT and majorly the only ones that disagree, are people who openly disliked Michael Jordan like Isaiah, players who played with Lebron, media members and fans of which I would bet all my money on that 95% of then havent even seen MJ play live in his prime. And no it's not because Lebron is still playing that virtually zero NBA players call him the GOAT. MJ was called the GOAT and was highly appraised as the greatest by players such as Magic and Bird DURING, their careers while they were in GOAT contention themselves. That just speaks volumes since the player closest to GOAT contention next to Lebron is Curry and he's the only one but still virtually zero players state him as the GOAT and a big group of them even put Kobe above him. If he was the greatest, his peers would all say the same. Players are known to widely appraise each other even in that highly competitive pre 10's era's. This has never been a hard debate. It just has been for a younger group who just do not grasp how good a lot of the 90's and 00's stars really were in their prime.
@@Herosennin Right I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan. Tons of people have done reaction videos to that video over the last 2 years it's not even a debate. Jordan was the better defensive player, Jordan was far and a way the better clutch player, Jordan was the better leader, Jordan was the better shooter and had more accolades going all the way back to college. So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough. And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
@@keaganfarmer6008 the issue with Lebrons Goat case is that his fanbase let him leapfrog the entire Hall of Fame just to push him ahead of MJ. heres a couple thoughts. When/what year did Lebron pass Larry Bird? What did he do to surpass Magic or Shaq? There are other names that should be mentioned. according to everyone Lebron passed Kobe but they cant tell me when that happened either. im not debating that Lebron isnt greater than them but you Cant tell me youve surpassed MJ without a definitive answer on when the passed them. same way this season the general consensus has become Steph #2 PG all time.
I 100% agree with you. I did grow up during MJs career and I’ve enjoyed both his and Lebrons careers. I just enjoy basketball and have always found the goat debate to be pointless. Just enjoy greatness when it’s on display. I have really enjoyed the deep dive content you have been putting out so keep up the great work. Thank you for being the adult in the room when other content creators just rant and rave.
Despite being a Jordan guy and having him as my GOAT my biggest pet peeve is when people act like their isn’t a conversation to be had or that its not even close. I personally all have MJ, Lebron and Kareem at the very top of the top all time and all are very close to each other with all 3 having arguments for every spot, I happen to rank it as I listed them 1-3 but I think the differences are narrow. At the end of the day tho each played a different position, a different style and in very diff eras.
Winning matters. Losing matters. Dude lost so much despite stacking the deck, hopping from lap to lap whoever had the most assets and needed 2 prime top 10 all-stars to win. One played the meta game like a ho, a bitch, a merc, a gold-digger. One played the meta game like a killer. THINK ABOUT IT.
Actually feel the same way. I thought I was an MJ guy, but after hours of defending LeBron from Jordan truthers as a devils advocate, I came to realise that this is more close than I originally thought. There are probably more black marks on LBJ legacy, but there are also feats than MJ never accomplished. Jordans career is almost Perfect, but he also had advantages that LBJ didn't have, sometimes because of his own decision (like having years and years of competent front office who made a juggernaut team around you). At The end of the day the only people who are wrong on this debate are those who say "X is better, and is not even close". It is. Its really close.
You sound like a fool who has no clue of what he's talking about people reacted to this particular video that I'm about to link to you and it was basically a one-sided debate. The guy had analytics he has statistics he had countless proof of who's better and it wasn't even close it was Jordan. He even had stats to prove who was more clutch and crunch time of games in the playoffs and regular season and it wasn't even close. I even had defensive wind shares at each of the players positions.. You guys watch this one 8 minute video from Rusty buckets and all of a sudden you talking about well maybe this debate is closer then you really thought no it's not. Link to the video ⬇️⬇️ th-cam.com/video/tl3mR6eoEa8/w-d-xo.html
@@RecapRico they were absolutely competent in team building. Jerry Krause was literally all time great in that regard. However, he also had massive ego and couldn't bite himself in the tongue and beefed like crazy, which has ended the greatest dynasty ever, that he himself built.
I think it’s a 3 way tie. Kareem, MJ, Lebron. 3 different eras, 3 different types of players. Cant compare each player but in my opinion their contributions and greatness are at a level unlike any others of their generations and we’ll never be able to objectively say any of those 3 are better than one another but all 3 are objectively better than any other players in NBA history
I wouldn't say objectively because at the end of the day it's all preferences but I also share the same view that Kareem, MJ and Lebron are the greatest players to ever play the game and you could pick any one of them to be your goat and I wouldn't find a reason to object your view.
1000% agree with you and I talk about this on twitter all the time! I’ve had MJ and LeBron as my Co GOAT for 5 years now and I love them both! Super early 80s baby (Jan 1980) who loved MJ growing up as well as LeBron since 2001. I’ve seen them both live center court row 10 since 50x is each since 1985 (40-60 games per year since 87-88 Reggie’s rookie year and 10-15 games per year since 85). Anyone who acts like it’s not close have no clue what they’re talking about and are biased Stans! Since 1985 the next two best players I’ve seen live 10+ x each (and many times on TV + studied) are Hakeem & Larry Bird as their first 11/9 years are AMAZING also! Also the best resume in a short period of time is Bill Russell 1956-1968 (if Finals MVP & DPOY existed he’d have at least 12-15 of those combined).
MJ, Kobe and LeBron are my GOATs. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who loves all of them. Appreciate them while they're still here/playing. I just smh whenever stans attack each other. They all retire and we all die someday.
@@anthonynorman7545 Pretty hard to find that but I would say Kobe's 2010 ring against the Celtics was more impressive and harder than any of MJ's rings, I still think MJ is above Kobe tho
I think your "it all comes down to personal preference" line sums up my thoughts best. I don't think that debating the topic is all that productive because it ends up boiling down to what attributes people value more and to what degree.
This goes beyond stats for me. It's about a feel. Every true GOAT candidate redefined basketball greatness. Wilt, Kareem, MJ, and now Lebron. There is no true GOAT because of the era differences and the evolution of the game. But the handful of "the best of the best" players set a new standard for how we compare great players.
Been having this same thought lately. Normally I think longevity in sports in comparison to something like music gets overblown because athletes can't help how much their bodies can hold up. But Lebron is such a crazy outlier you gotta give him credit for it
rusty this has been you morst balanced and honest takes ever. u explained how espn kakes money yelling at each other about the same teams in ifferent colors of the same clothes. Its so..so crazy man
I’ve always thought: MJ - GOAT LeBron - BOAT You actually summed it up pretty great with the résumé comparison. MJ’s unmatched icon and LeBron’s transcendent anomaly of nature. Almost reminds of the Superman vs Hulk debate lol, nerd logic..
I always thought the other way around because MJ had a shorter career but it burned like a brighter flame and he was “better” while Lebron has a longer career where his accomplishments pile up to make his career “greater” (he had a longer lasting flame) So… Lebron = Goat Jordan = Boat In my opinion though
@@redwingbasil I like the way you phrased it. I contextualize MJ’s greatness for example, in him being undefeated in the Finals. For LeBron him being I feel pound for pound the best all around basketball playing human being. MJ was pretty close to being a perfect all around player but I think the era he played in slowed that up a little. His “perfect” career and cultural impact give him the edge.
Winning matters. Losing matters. Dude lost so much despite stacking the deck, hopping from lap to lap whoever had the most assets and needed 2 prime top 10 all-stars to win. One played the meta game like a ho, a bitch, a merc, a gold-digger. One played the meta game like a killer. THINK ABOUT IT.
I think I’m going to have to agree with you Rusty. If I had to take one over the other, I’d go Mike, but I believe that they’re tied at this point as the greatest player.
I don’t have a GOAT player anymore. The conversation became annoying after a while. I try to appreciate the totality of the game of basketball instead of being fixated on one part or person in the game. Thanks for explaining your opinion this way.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan. So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough. And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
I’ve always said I think you need to wait until players finish their playing career. Look at how MJ Stan’s build up and defend his legacy. Yet Kobe who imo is top 10 didn’t get the love he deserved while he was still alive and now I’ve seen people drop Kobe from 5-7 to out of the top 10 so I think it’ll be interesting more than anything to see how Lebron holds up to time after his career
I’ve started to feel the same way. They’re both so incredible, and I agree that essentially the longevity of lebron has began to equal the dominance of Jordan. If you make me choose, I’ll probably still pick Jordan, to combat recency bias, but I’m definitely not going to argue ardently against lebron.
I respect your take though for me Lebron could be good until he’s 45 and he still won’t surpass the peak of Jordan. Longevity is only one category and for me the goat could be on the scene for only 8 years and then get struck by lightening. If they’re the best, they’re the best, whether it was for a decade or 20 years.
hey rusty, for people who didn’t start fully paying attention to the nba not many years ago; do u think u would ever do a breakdown/deep dive of each nba season from the 2010s? been tryna find vids like that but haven’t seen it done and think it’s a rlly cool idea and think it could be a good way for new comers to the nba who want more knowledge on the game.
This is why I’d rather do a tier list instead of a traditional 123 ranking. As players keep getting better and better, it’s getting harder to say one is better than the other. To me Mike and lebron are the GOATs. They both deserve to be known as the greatest to do it.
I think its crazy I always agree with you, I had this same take TODAY, I’ve been following your channel for about 2 years now and I can’t recall a single take you had that I blatantly disagreed with, my favorite youtuber by far
Jordan was 9 times all defensive first at the same time as scoring champ. That really shows how much of a beast he was on both ends. Also steals champ at the same time as scoring champ. Something that never gets mentioned. Jordan is top 5 in both totals and per game averages in both scoring and steals. Some players maybe both for one stat but not 2. Jordan took it to another level in the finals especially the first 3. 91-- average 11.4 assists per game highest for anyone not Magic. 92 - - average an impressive 42% for 3s and in game 1 shot six 3s in a half which was a record for 18 years until Ray Allen the only person to shoot more in a half 93-- average 41 points per game highest ever.
Yeah people only bring up his rings instead of what actually made him great. But in his system it heavily benefited sgs mostly. And it was a 2 player system. (Mj Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, Kobe and Pau.)I know bringing up 2k is dumb. But every athletic sg who can score high and get 5-7 rebounds and assists in 2k are like 99 in triangle proficiency. People never mention he had Jackson as his coach
lebron was a better defender at his peak, all-def teams are circumstantial and don't actually capture how good of a defender he was. MJ made a lot of those teams off rep alone, he was an amazing defender tho just not as versatile as bron
thats cause of media. Media constantly keeps talking about jordan how would they not? If you want to look at true greatness look at MIcheal jackson. dude gets zero media coverage none. And I can bet any child would easily pick jackson as the king of pop to this day@@prchdm
Yeah I believe they really are equals and it comes down to preference. In my experience, people just like MJ or Lebron because something about their game or legacy resonates with us and what we like about basketball. It's completely personal and not a real reflection of their abilities as athletes.
You aren't alone. I agree with you. For me, I've always just kind of said, that I don't think active players should be in the GOAT debate. I want to see the end the LeBrons career before I weigh in.
LeBron's definitely my GOAT, up till this point I can't see anyone else adding more value to their squads than him. Tbh, even though my view on the value of traditional bigs has dropped a bit recently on both ends, I still think Kareem for his full career is a closer debate with MJ than LeBron is. 18 years of great play on both ends with 6 rings (I know he was only the best for half) is hard to pass up.
lol no. LeBron played the game like a low-quality gold-digging ho. Lap-dancing whichever team has the most assets. Desperate and pathetic. LeBron is participation medals personified.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan. So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough. And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
I’ve legit got MJ at 51.09% versus Bron at 48.91%. MJ is my 🐐, but Bron is still active, so he has a chance. Either way, it’s going to end up being very close.
@@parico4489 It’s been what - 2 years since this comment!? 😂 So, I’ve actually updated my ranking system, and it has two (2) levels: 1) Best Overall Career & 2) Best Overall Player. I won’t go into detail about how I score things, but currently I have LeBron ranked as having the best overall career (66.1), and Jordan in second (65.7). However, regarding best overall player, I have Jordan ranked first (43.80), while LeBron is ranked fourth (31.48). Second place is Magic (34.23), while third is Bird (32.15). What this shows is that no one comes close to Jordan’s dominance as an individual player. It also shows that LeBron’s career score is enhanced by his longevity, which is not a knock against him, as his longevity is part of what makes him one of the greatest to ever play the game.
Thank you. I 100% agree. It’s literally impossible to pick one or the other because they both have a case of being the GOAT and their fans are always caught up in a never ending slander fest on both sides. Me personally I’d give the GOAT title to Lebron by a slight margin, but if people tell me MJ is the GOAT, I have no problem with that. But to use mistakes they made in the past just to tear them down to boost the other is egregious. At that point I just gave up and made both of them the GOAT
they are both the goats of our heart and soul and we know one of them is more important.....On a serious note it's incredibly hard to compare the both of them they both played in different eras with vastly different team importance structure because as a general manager now if you had a talent like Jordan you would put him with a lot of shooters they really didn't do that with Jordan, I do think it is stupid to compare across era's for the fact that the rules are different the allowed level of violence is way different the overall team structure is different the amount of players allowed to thrive and see what they can do is different it's just really hard to compare.
Hey Rusty I agree with you but what if Lebron wins another title? Or keeps all nba level by 40? In my opinion I feel like lebron and Jordan are tied however if I had to pick I’d pick lebron just based off of him just being more all around
I got MJ only slightly ahead of bron which hurts sometimes cuz I'm a bron fan but how is he more all round , he passes better for sure but his assists numbers are only 1 or 2 averages higher despite being the fact MJ played in a system and couldn't have the ball as much as bron did , mj was better off ball , a better defender , better jumpshot and as paint protectors they averaged the same blocks , Bron has like 1 more rebound per game , but he should cuz he's like 3 inches taller, among small forwards he isn't very high on rebounds while MJ is one of the best at his position
@@jonnstewart2023 Prime MJ is not a better defender, Prime LeBron could guard 1-4 and sometimes five and is one of the greatest help defenders ever. He should've won DPOY in 2013
My homie Nick always used the term GOATs. He'd say Jordan is a GOAT, Kobe is a GOAT, LeBron is a GOAT... This is a philosophy I subscribe to, as well. To me, there are around 7 guys with really great claims, depending on what you prefer. Personally, I don't have a GOAT, even as I have a favorite player
@@robertoloor285Kobe and Shaq only have 1 MVP each and we know why. you guys keep acting willfully ignorant as if the NBA and its media members were supposed to promote Kobe to "Face of the NBA" coming off a rape case. Go ahead and ask Carmelo where his Rookie of the Year is while you're at it
@@YouCallThataKnife253 Regardless if it's opinion based, my criteria or yours, someone is better than the rest. Y'all so damn concerned with showing the proper worship to these athletes, that you wanna act like is ten eleven twelve way tie, it's not.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan. So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough. And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
@@pp3k3jamailI don’t think that this debate is over given the amount of positive attribute each player has going for them. I completely get why you would choose Jordan over LeBron though. I just wouldn’t do that personally since I think LBJ’s longevity with his amount of talent is equally as difficult and impressive as MJ’s stainless record and impeccable peak.
@@DevenRamchandran y'all didn't see that video from 2 years ago with the guy who made the video between Jordan and LeBron. I don't know how y'all didn't see that video millions reacted to it. I'll give you the link right here it was so one-sided LeBron shouldn't even be in the discussion. Jordan was the more clutch player by far, Jordan was the better leader, Jordan was the better shooter, Jordan was the better defensive player, Jordan lead his position in win shares far more than LeBron let his position. Here's the link right here to the video this is all so instead of me telling you how much better Jordan was you can watch for yourself. Link to the video ⬇️⬇️ th-cam.com/video/tl3mR6eoEa8/w-d-xo.html
They should stop calling players GOATs. These debates go on and on forever and eventually just get to the point of tearing down the other person rather than bring up a person's GOAT. Let's just all agree that we call both of them GOATS. Jordan is the GOAT of the 90s. Lebron is the GOAT of the 2010s. Kobe or Duncan can be the GOAT for 2000s. Magic or Bird can be GOAT of the 80s. Kareem can be the GOAT of the 70s. Russell or Chamberlin can be GOAT of the 60s. Done.
I agree, It's easier and makes more sense to compare players to their peers in the same era rather than comparing players from different eras like the 80s to the 2010s where you have two completely different basketball games being played.
This is nice but that’s not a GOAT. a GOAT is supposed to be literally the greatest of all time. These are the greatest players of the decade, sure. So maybe what you mean is that we focus on the greatest player of their respective eras.
Or eight players have a real case. I love the Making the Case series by Clayton Crowley and it completely opened my mind. I still tend to go with MJ or Lebron but I can't shut out the others. It is an open discussion and it is simply the discussion, not any answer, which holds the value.
I get what you're saying, but, I think I would take a perfectly polished 1 page resume over 2 pages that are great but with worse blunders. As far as the goat debate; whenever we can be honest and unbiased with both MJ and LBJs careers while adding context to their careers I think it will always reveal that MJ is the GOAT BUT I think LBJ is a close 2 if not 1B. I respect it either way.
@@GymbalPooh also looking at quality of roster/stability of team, since MJ had that luxury of having a team owner and front office who built an all time roster around him, while LBJ has not had that luxury for most of his career, so his 2007 and 2018 runs are seen more as LBJ feats rather than shortcomings
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan. So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough. And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
I believe MJ is the GOAT, and I believe it for one reason. By the 1998 season, a 35 year MJ retired from basketball while still being the best player in the league and having won 6 rings. Up until that point, he had no major injuries and basically played in every regular season and playoff game. There is no reason for me to believe the MJ didn't have 3-4 very good years left in him. He could have joined contenders like Portland, LA or Spurs and further his legacy by posting something close to 25 ppg and being the best or second best player in a championship team. MJ chose not to do this for his own reasons which are all well documented. When talking about MJ longevity, we should all keep that in mind: MJ did not retire because he was washed, he retired because he was over it. He completed basketball, plain and simple. LeBron is still chasing all time records and rings to get to MJ's level. MJ could have done what LBJ is doing now. LBJ could not accomplish what MJ did in the same number of years and thus is still going. That's my two cents, respectfully.
I understand where your coming from but I don’t think lebron is still playing to chase rings and records. I think he’s still playing because there is no real reason for him to stop. The best thing Mj did was retire in 1998 because the bulls weren’t winning another championship for sure and his legacy wouldn’t be as perfect if he moved
Lebron is still playing because he love basketball and because he is a competitor, Basketball isnt a 9-5 job at Mcdonald, it’s a passion so if basketball is really your passion you will play until you are washed just like Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, KG, Melo and all the other great.
What’s funny is how there are only 2 potential goats right now, imagine in 40 years and how many there are going to be. I feel like this is a topic that’s only getting started. Great video as always rusty
In terms of talent, I think both of them are roughly equal despite very different play styles. With LeBron being more of an all-encompassing net, while Michael is more of a sharpened sword and sturdy shield. So while on paper they could be 1a and 1b, in simplest terms there are two things that imo keep LeBron at #2: - Michael still has a better balance between team and individual accomplishments. - The "who did you stop?" narrative leans firmly in Michael's favor as almost every major contemporary superstar to LeBron has at least a neutral record against him. (Granted KD had to join Curry to offset his 2012 loss)
I've been saying for a few years Jordan goat peak for his 6 in 8 year 90s but people who don't respect Lebron's goat case I think are looking at it in a very unfair 6-0 vs 4-6 way which doesn't account for his tougher strength of finals opponents overall, several finals particularly 07, 15, 18 Finals where he was so undermanned that I'd hope any reasonable fan even a hater could agree Jordan wouldn't win in that situation either. And 2017 Warriors are the greatest team ever , and 2014 Spurs are the best version of their 20year 5 ring dynasty despite their age at the time, it's a stretch for me to say MJ would win those either. Only knocks on LeBron for me that are reasonable is 2011 Finals and a weak East that certainly helped him make alot of Finals but it wasn't like it wasn't because he was playing amazing too. The bonus is the extra 5 or more playing at a peak level when Jordan really only had 11 great seasons, his first 3 under .500 record and 1-9 playoffs.
LeBron played the Spurs and Warriors 7 times at their peak too, most of those times James having the undermanned roster. MJs best finals comp was imo the Sonics. Still nowhere close a caliber team to the likeliness of the Spurs and Warriors, that’s one thing LeBron has on MJ
How is it a knock on Michael that he achieved more in less time? Your problem is that you don't know anything about him. To assume he couldn't beat the spurs or the warriors is proof of that.
@ juju 32 The problem is you’re applying context to Lebron’s finals losses without applying that same context to MJ’s ‘pre-finals playoff loses’. You have to be consistent. In 1985 MJ lost to a loaded 59-23 Bucks team lead by Sidney Moncrief and Terry Cummings, as well as great role players like Paul Pressey, whereas Mjs bulls were 38-44. The bulls lost that series 3-1. In 1986, MJ was swept by Larry Bird’s Celtics, who are undoubtedly one of the greatest teams of all time, they went 67-15 and they were 40-1 at home, meanwhile, the bulls were 30-52, MJ only played 18 regular season games, but at the end of the day, the bulls were a mediocre team. In 1987, the bulls got swept again by the Celtics, the Celtics went 59-23, whilst the Bulls were 40-42. So when applying context to MJs 1-9 record, he got swept by the 1986 nba champions, who had one of the greatest team records ever, and have the joint nba record for the best regular season home record (40-1), and he was also swept by the 1987 Celtics that lost to the Lakers in the finals. The singular win he was able to get was against a much superior Bucks team in the 1985 nba playoffs, although they did get swept in the second round by the 76ers. If you’re going to recognise that Lebron was undermanned in the 07,15,18 finals, then you need to also recognise that MJ was undermanned in all the series that comprise his 1-9 record, especially the 1986, and 1987 playoff loses against the Celtics. Additionally, the 1986 Celtics are also one of the greatest teams of all time, not better than the 2017 warriors, but they’re just as good as the 2014 Spurs, maybe even better.
@@BayAreaHoops415 I agree with you, but if we apply this context to Lebron facing tougher competition in the finals, then we also have to recognise that MJ played much tougher competition prior to the finals. The Bad Boy Pistons and the 80s Celtics are better than any team Lebron has ever faced prior to the finals, then MJ also had to get through great Pacers, Knicks, Heat, Magic, Hawks, and Cavs teams in order to make the finals. Lebron still obviously played some great teams prior to the finals, but the eastern conference when Lebron was in the East was much weaker than the Eastern conference that MJ played in.
idk why lebron stans got such a problem with him being the 2nd best player to ever pick a basketball. Like thats a massive achievement but for some reason they cant accept that hes not number 1 which he cant possibly reach now in his career. The bubble ring was valid but he just doesnt have it at 4-6 im sorry
@@colewrld901 simply comparing how many rings players have and basing part of your argument on that, does not make for a good argument. You have to look at each ring individually and see how impressive it was.
@@colewrld901 okay and lebron has much better longevity and statistical achievements plus his overall game could be argued to be better than Jordans. I have MJ as the goat but y’all MJ stand have to realize that almost every argument you make as to why lebron can’t be the goat can be thrown back at you in a modified version
@@sheeb3050 or I can look at one guy being under 500 hundred in finals attempts 🤷 couldn't even compare the difficulty of their rings, cause LeBron doesn't have enough
I really agree both had different types of greatest of all time careers so I honestly don’t think either answer is wrong and the answer of both is probably most fair to both their accomplishments
I have a lot of trouble saying that lebron is the GOAT after 2011. As great as he has been, he didn’t show up on the final stage. I give lebron a pass on the warriors titles and huge props for the Cleveland title. I just can’t get past the fact that he lost with a super team against a mavs team with one star
Thank you. This is what I’ve been saying for so long. LeBron and MJ are different players. They excel in different areas. There is more than 1 way to be great. If you want to talk about winning it’s MJ, he is a better winner but LeBron is the all around better player and that’s honestly not close. People gave this image of MJ (and rightfully so) so they just trash Bron to make MJ seem that much better. I have never in my life heard a LeBron fan try and say MJ isn’t an all time great but we see time and time again mj fans trash LeBron and try and make him seem like he’s lesser
You clearly don’t know any LeBron fans. Did you know that if it wasn’t for Scotty Pippin Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson carring Michael Jordan he would’ve never been successful
To me longevity can’t overtake a significant peak. You could be the best player in the league for 8 years or 25. If you’re the best… you’re just the best. If Grant Hill had been say 30% better & wiped the floor with the league and won 4 or 5 championships in the 90s before going down with injuries like he did, then he could’ve been the goat.
lebron has had harder finals comp.He faced both the 2014 spurs team as well as the 2017 warriors which are both candidates for the greatest team of all time.Lebrons only indefensible loss was the 2011 playoffs.Aside from that he won every finals he was favored in. Not to mention mj only being the underdog only once in the finals against magic
@@williamingwerson4692 y'all only call the 2014 spurs an all time great team cause they destroyed LeBron. If LeBron won, people would say oh it was an old team 😂 not giving him a pass for losing that finals and 2017 he had a big 3 and couldn't even make it competitive 😑 and Jordan wasn't the underdog in 5 of his finals because he was that dominant. He didn't show a track record of losing finals he wasn't supposed to lose lol....cough cough...2011
@@colewrld901 he had the goat coach and an all nba caliber sidekick plus a great supporting cast.The best teams mj went up against was probably the sun's team and they only had 1 star in barkley.The 2017 warriors had 4 all stars on their team.Steph and kd are mvp candidates,klay was liable for going off for 40 on any given night and draymond was a dpoy and all nba level player. As for the 2014 spurs they played arguably the greatest team basketball of all time.Mj lost to a pistons team that was a lot worse than any of the warriors squads from 2016 onwards
growing up in Cleveland seeing everything transpire the burned jerseys the playoff performances the return the comeback and being a jordan stan I can honestly say that I agree 1A and 1A
We will never come close to an answer for who is the goat. Oldheads will never give up the Jordan argument even if lebron is clearly better. And over time older players will be forgotten. There will never be a real answer.
This is a great video. It’s really either or at this point between MJ and Bron. They really played different games when you look at the rules, mentality, etc. Take your pick, don’t be an ass
That resume metaphor really nailed it. You said a perfect resume vs a longer resume with some blemishes. I'd go perfection over quantity. Give you another metaphor...I'd take a perfect looking rich chick over a nice looking lady with some money and a really cute puppy.
They are on the same Tier. You hit a certain level of greatness and unless you’re like Brady (several more championships than anyone else , clearly lead those teams almost “on his own” for nearly 2x the avg career length) there’s no getting better. Like you’d need 8 rings at this rate
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My dads gonna kill me for this take (he was a 90s Bulls fan/MJ Stan lol)
2nd channel (Extra content) - th-cam.com/channels/LlZZVU8QBpMHVT7kdEbpSQ.html
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W take personally I think bron s the goat
OK....SOMEONE'S bored
I agree
I've got LeBron at #6
@@karmanbhela7978 good thing I'm not you. I have him inside top 5 and most definitely inside top 10 even for a hater
“We can love one without tearing down one”
- Kobe back in 2018
That's not how sports work
@@raw5889 it is though. You can make an argument for one party without pointing out the flaws of another. You actually don’t have an argument if you have to do that. You’re just being an asshole at that point.
@@raw5889 not how sports media works*
But LeWoke James shouldn't even be in the goat discussion.
@@raw5889 So should we listen to you or Kobe about how sports work?
MJ is like a storybook character, his career sounds too perfectly scripted like they wrote it all out and made a miniseries about it and Lebron is the physical freak who was seemingly hand crafted in a lab to be the perfect basketball specimen yet somehow managed to live up to all that talent and hype. If Lebron gets another finals win or carries another play-in level team (or worse) there at damn near 40 it’ll be really hard for me to argue against him
Lebron is the perfect Athlete.
He has that combined with one of, if
not the best basketball IQ's of all time. An absolute specimen of a basketball player. But he's lost too many times to pass MJ in my opinion
honestly to me bill russel has the story book career, 11 rings lol, but yea to me the goat is always changing between born and MJ.
@@wilzleveliq5345 can’t really argue there, I’m just more of a fan of longevity and competition in these kinds of debates and I do think Lebron is the more complete basketball player but idk how many people would really argue that except for old heads
@@chloelittle7036 mj could pass while lebron was better at it, but mj is more complete he's better at d and he plays better OFF BALL knowing how and when to cut and move off ball and score kgf ball is a part of tje game lebron isn't near as effective off ball as Jordan just saying
Mj for me will always be the GOAT. 2 three back to back championship wins. Something lebron never did or will do. Even though lebron has gone to more he has lost as many as MJ has won.
Also LJ was never able to beat of the best modern basketball teams of all time in the 17-18 Golden State. That team is pretty much the modern day chicago bulls of the 90s..
The real goats are the friends we made along the way
The theme of the video perfectly captured
💯
Oh gee whiz, that sounds like so much fun, fair and all
Real talk
Friendship is everything
Lebron is top 2 in total points, top 7 in assist, top 10 in steals, top 11 in 3s, top 100 in blocks, top 40 in Rebs- his all around game is beyond amazing
Longevity awards. That's cool but Jordan won 6 rings in 13 years. Two of those years he was our more than half the season. Jordan did more in less time and retired twice and went back to back 3 peats twice
@@streetpresident8343 is longevity not apart of greatness? Look how old he is and the performance hes still giving
@@boombabitch it's part of it but it's not everything and also it's what you do in those years yes he missed the play offs and previously vgot bounced in the first round. Won a 4th ring with another super star in ad in 2020 . But he's cool just not anything to be on a greatest...
@@streetpresident8343 the fact that a player made the finals at 24 did it for 9 straight years, then won a championship at 35. And all he gets is “he missed the playoffs at 36” 🤡
@@streetpresident8343 fun fact: Jordan came out of retirement and was so dogshit the Wizards still missed the playoffs, with him AND the Number 1 pick
I agree with this, the more I get into the NBA I realize lebron being in a 20 year prime is absolutely insane. Both goats in my eyes.
Completely agree. Wish we would spend more time celebrating both of these players instead of constant comparison and reminders of their flaws. Great vid!
yea I've thought for a while now that at best you can just say that Lebron and Jordan are the best of their eras but that comparing the two directly makes no sense since the game now is totally different.
lol no. LeBron played the game like a low-quality gold-digging ho. Lap-dancing whichever team has the most assets. Desperate and pathetic. LeBron is participation medals personified.
You aren't alone on this one. I've been saying for the better part of two years that it's kinda hard to debate this when the resumes of both players are equally as impressive no matter how you look at it. It's about time that we, as basketball fans, just look at the GOAT debate and just call it as it is: pointless. There will never be a definitive GOAT, no matter what you do to try and stupidly and pointlessly tear down another person's accomplishments. If you think LeBron, Kareem, Mike, Bill, or even Kobe is the GOAT, it shouldn't really matter because the debate is very subjective.
Nah. MJ is clearly the GOAT and majorly the only ones that disagree, are people who openly disliked Michael Jordan like Isaiah, players who played with Lebron, media members and fans of which I would bet all my money on that 95% of then havent even seen MJ play live in his prime.
And no it's not because Lebron is still playing that virtually zero NBA players call him the GOAT.
MJ was called the GOAT and was highly appraised as the greatest by players such as Magic and Bird DURING, their careers while they were in GOAT contention themselves.
That just speaks volumes since the player closest to GOAT contention next to Lebron is Curry and he's the only one but still virtually zero players state him as the GOAT and a big group of them even put Kobe above him.
If he was the greatest, his peers would all say the same. Players are known to widely appraise each other even in that highly competitive pre 10's era's.
This has never been a hard debate. It just has been for a younger group who just do not grasp how good a lot of the 90's and 00's stars really were in their prime.
@@Herosennin Right I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan.
Tons of people have done reaction videos to that video over the last 2 years it's not even a debate. Jordan was the better defensive player, Jordan was far and a way the better clutch player, Jordan was the better leader, Jordan was the better shooter and had more accolades going all the way back to college.
So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough.
And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
@@Herosennin u clearly miss the point of the video lmao
@@Herosennin how could you possibly miss the point of this video so badly man..
@@keaganfarmer6008 the issue with Lebrons Goat case is that his fanbase let him leapfrog the entire Hall of Fame just to push him ahead of MJ. heres a couple thoughts. When/what year did Lebron pass Larry Bird? What did he do to surpass Magic or Shaq? There are other names that should be mentioned. according to everyone Lebron passed Kobe but they cant tell me when that happened either. im not debating that Lebron isnt greater than them but you Cant tell me youve surpassed MJ without a definitive answer on when the passed them. same way this season the general consensus has become Steph #2 PG all time.
I 100% agree with you. I did grow up during MJs career and I’ve enjoyed both his and Lebrons careers. I just enjoy basketball and have always found the goat debate to be pointless. Just enjoy greatness when it’s on display. I have really enjoyed the deep dive content you have been putting out so keep up the great work. Thank you for being the adult in the room when other content creators just rant and rave.
Despite being a Jordan guy and having him as my GOAT my biggest pet peeve is when people act like their isn’t a conversation to be had or that its not even close.
I personally all have MJ, Lebron and Kareem at the very top of the top all time and all are very close to each other with all 3 having arguments for every spot, I happen to rank it as I listed them 1-3 but I think the differences are narrow. At the end of the day tho each played a different position, a different style and in very diff eras.
Winning matters. Losing matters. Dude lost so much despite stacking the deck, hopping from lap to lap whoever had the most assets and needed 2 prime top 10 all-stars to win. One played the meta game like a ho, a bitch, a merc, a gold-digger. One played the meta game like a killer. THINK ABOUT IT.
Actually feel the same way. I thought I was an MJ guy, but after hours of defending LeBron from Jordan truthers as a devils advocate, I came to realise that this is more close than I originally thought.
There are probably more black marks on LBJ legacy, but there are also feats than MJ never accomplished.
Jordans career is almost Perfect, but he also had advantages that LBJ didn't have, sometimes because of his own decision (like having years and years of competent front office who made a juggernaut team around you).
At The end of the day the only people who are wrong on this debate are those who say "X is better, and is not even close". It is. Its really close.
U know what, I think ur the GOAT because u brought up the best point of all time 👍
1A and 1B
You sound like a fool who has no clue of what he's talking about people reacted to this particular video that I'm about to link to you and it was basically a one-sided debate.
The guy had analytics he has statistics he had countless proof of who's better and it wasn't even close it was Jordan.
He even had stats to prove who was more clutch and crunch time of games in the playoffs and regular season and it wasn't even close. I even had defensive wind shares at each of the players positions..
You guys watch this one 8 minute video from Rusty buckets and all of a sudden you talking about well maybe this debate is closer then you really thought no it's not.
Link to the video ⬇️⬇️
th-cam.com/video/tl3mR6eoEa8/w-d-xo.html
id like to know how you cam to the conclusion that the bulls were ever a competent front office?
@@RecapRico they were absolutely competent in team building. Jerry Krause was literally all time great in that regard. However, he also had massive ego and couldn't bite himself in the tongue and beefed like crazy, which has ended the greatest dynasty ever, that he himself built.
I think it’s a 3 way tie. Kareem, MJ, Lebron. 3 different eras, 3 different types of players. Cant compare each player but in my opinion their contributions and greatness are at a level unlike any others of their generations and we’ll never be able to objectively say any of those 3 are better than one another but all 3 are objectively better than any other players in NBA history
Pretty good take
I wouldn't say objectively because at the end of the day it's all preferences but I also share the same view that Kareem, MJ and Lebron are the greatest players to ever play the game and you could pick any one of them to be your goat and I wouldn't find a reason to object your view.
mj and lebron never had magic fucking johnson on their rosters and no one even close to that
@@spaghettisauce445 You acting like Lebron didn’t have prime Shaq in 2009-2010 averaging 12 and 6 😼
@@Kilooma 💀💀💀
1000% agree with you and I talk about this on twitter all the time!
I’ve had MJ and LeBron as my Co GOAT for 5 years now and I love them both! Super early 80s baby (Jan 1980) who loved MJ growing up as well as LeBron since 2001. I’ve seen them both live center court row 10 since 50x is each since 1985 (40-60 games per year since 87-88 Reggie’s rookie year and 10-15 games per year since 85).
Anyone who acts like it’s not close have no clue what they’re talking about and are biased Stans!
Since 1985 the next two best players I’ve seen live 10+ x each (and many times on TV + studied) are Hakeem & Larry Bird as their first 11/9 years are AMAZING also!
Also the best resume in a short period of time is Bill Russell 1956-1968 (if Finals MVP & DPOY existed he’d have at least 12-15 of those combined).
MJ, Kobe and LeBron are my GOATs. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who loves all of them. Appreciate them while they're still here/playing. I just smh whenever stans attack each other. They all retire and we all die someday.
Same I’m a big fan of all three of them even if their fangirls don’t like each other and try their hardest to discredit each other.
Dude it's not an attack to say only one person can be the best
Not trying to start beef, but what did Kobe do that MJ didn't do better?
@@anthonynorman7545 Pretty hard to find that but I would say Kobe's 2010 ring against the Celtics was more impressive and harder than any of MJ's rings, I still think MJ is above Kobe tho
@@anthonynorman7545 You're part of the issue.
I think your "it all comes down to personal preference" line sums up my thoughts best. I don't think that debating the topic is all that productive because it ends up boiling down to what attributes people value more and to what degree.
i’m not opposed to this.
Lebron should have like 12 rings.... Imagine if he had the right teammates his whole career
This goes beyond stats for me. It's about a feel. Every true GOAT candidate redefined basketball greatness. Wilt, Kareem, MJ, and now Lebron. There is no true GOAT because of the era differences and the evolution of the game. But the handful of "the best of the best" players set a new standard for how we compare great players.
Russell**
@@Fearthegoatee if we going by eras i think wilt and russell are tied
Damn that resume analogy was really good
Been having this same thought lately. Normally I think longevity in sports in comparison to something like music gets overblown because athletes can't help how much their bodies can hold up. But Lebron is such a crazy outlier you gotta give him credit for it
rusty this has been you morst balanced and honest takes ever. u explained how espn kakes money yelling at each other about the same teams in ifferent colors of the same clothes. Its so..so crazy man
I’ve always thought:
MJ - GOAT
LeBron - BOAT
You actually summed it up pretty great with the résumé comparison. MJ’s unmatched icon and LeBron’s transcendent anomaly of nature. Almost reminds of the Superman vs Hulk debate lol, nerd logic..
I always thought the other way around because MJ had a shorter career but it burned like a brighter flame and he was “better” while Lebron has a longer career where his accomplishments pile up to make his career “greater” (he had a longer lasting flame) So…
Lebron = Goat
Jordan = Boat
In my opinion though
@@redwingbasil I like the way you phrased it. I contextualize MJ’s greatness for example, in him being undefeated in the Finals. For LeBron him being I feel pound for pound the best all around basketball playing human being.
MJ was pretty close to being a perfect all around player but I think the era he played in slowed that up a little. His “perfect” career and cultural impact give him the edge.
Winning matters. Losing matters. Dude lost so much despite stacking the deck, hopping from lap to lap whoever had the most assets and needed 2 prime top 10 all-stars to win. One played the meta game like a ho, a bitch, a merc, a gold-digger. One played the meta game like a killer. THINK ABOUT IT.
@@redwingbasil lol is this from jimmy highroller video?
@@monsterswolr I was inspired by his video but it’s mostly my opinion
Great video Rusty, loving the content
I think I’m going to have to agree with you Rusty. If I had to take one over the other, I’d go Mike, but I believe that they’re tied at this point as the greatest player.
I don’t have a GOAT player anymore. The conversation became annoying after a while. I try to appreciate the totality of the game of basketball instead of being fixated on one part or person in the game. Thanks for explaining your opinion this way.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan.
So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough.
And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
I’ve always said I think you need to wait until players finish their playing career. Look at how MJ Stan’s build up and defend his legacy. Yet Kobe who imo is top 10 didn’t get the love he deserved while he was still alive and now I’ve seen people drop Kobe from 5-7 to out of the top 10 so I think it’ll be interesting more than anything to see how Lebron holds up to time after his career
oh god more GOAT debates 😂😂
whats sports without a goat debate
@@demarkusondatrack5646 absolutely nothing.
I’ve started to feel the same way. They’re both so incredible, and I agree that essentially the longevity of lebron has began to equal the dominance of Jordan. If you make me choose, I’ll probably still pick Jordan, to combat recency bias, but I’m definitely not going to argue ardently against lebron.
I respect your take though for me Lebron could be good until he’s 45 and he still won’t surpass the peak of Jordan. Longevity is only one category and for me the goat could be on the scene for only 8 years and then get struck by lightening. If they’re the best, they’re the best, whether it was for a decade or 20 years.
@@amostlyreasonableguy If were being honest this is just Jordan dickriding
Wow , finally a decent video from you . Keep it up 💯
hey rusty, for people who didn’t start fully paying attention to the nba not many years ago; do u think u would ever do a breakdown/deep dive of each nba season from the 2010s? been tryna find vids like that but haven’t seen it done and think it’s a rlly cool idea and think it could be a good way for new comers to the nba who want more knowledge on the game.
This video is going to blow up
This is why I’d rather do a tier list instead of a traditional 123 ranking. As players keep getting better and better, it’s getting harder to say one is better than the other. To me Mike and lebron are the GOATs. They both deserve to be known as the greatest to do it.
I think its crazy I always agree with you, I had this same take TODAY, I’ve been following your channel for about 2 years now and I can’t recall a single take you had that I blatantly disagreed with, my favorite youtuber by far
Jordan was 9 times all defensive first at the same time as scoring champ. That really shows how much of a beast he was on both ends.
Also steals champ at the same time as scoring champ.
Something that never gets mentioned. Jordan is top 5 in both totals and per game averages in both scoring and steals. Some players maybe both for one stat but not 2.
Jordan took it to another level in the finals especially the first 3.
91-- average 11.4 assists per game highest for anyone not Magic.
92 - - average an impressive 42% for 3s and in game 1 shot six 3s in a half which was a record for 18 years until Ray Allen the only person to shoot more in a half
93-- average 41 points per game highest ever.
Two different eras they are way better players in lebron era
Yeah people only bring up his rings instead of what actually made him great. But in his system it heavily benefited sgs mostly. And it was a 2 player system. (Mj Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, Kobe and Pau.)I know bringing up 2k is dumb. But every athletic sg who can score high and get 5-7 rebounds and assists in 2k are like 99 in triangle proficiency. People never mention he had Jackson as his coach
lebron was a better defender at his peak, all-def teams are circumstantial and don't actually capture how good of a defender he was. MJ made a lot of those teams off rep alone, he was an amazing defender tho just not as versatile as bron
@@ACLA23 why do you feel it is important to bring up Jackson? It was Tex Winter's system
@@lfcnba what shows LeBron better defender?
I love when people make me look at things differently. Good take bro👌🏽💯
The fact that in 2022 most of NBA fans haven't watched MJ play and still consider him the GOAT speaks for itself.
That means there opinion doesn't matter or isn't relevant because they haven't seen him play
@@-rio-. so no great man from antiquity until the 20th century means anything because there's nobody contemporary to them alive.
Great logic 👍
@@prchdm I'm saying that those peoples opinions aren't as reliable as to those have watched him play live
We still live off the 90s right?
thats cause of media. Media constantly keeps talking about jordan how would they not? If you want to look at true greatness look at MIcheal jackson. dude gets zero media coverage none. And I can bet any child would easily pick jackson as the king of pop to this day@@prchdm
Agreed. I pretty much have had the same feeling-trajectory that you had, man.
Yeah I believe they really are equals and it comes down to preference. In my experience, people just like MJ or Lebron because something about their game or legacy resonates with us and what we like about basketball. It's completely personal and not a real reflection of their abilities as athletes.
You aren't alone. I agree with you. For me, I've always just kind of said, that I don't think active players should be in the GOAT debate. I want to see the end the LeBrons career before I weigh in.
LeBron's definitely my GOAT, up till this point I can't see anyone else adding more value to their squads than him.
Tbh, even though my view on the value of traditional bigs has dropped a bit recently on both ends, I still think Kareem for his full career is a closer debate with MJ than LeBron is. 18 years of great play on both ends with 6 rings (I know he was only the best for half) is hard to pass up.
I know your not serious. Neither of them were close to as dominant in their era as Mike.
lol no. LeBron played the game like a low-quality gold-digging ho. Lap-dancing whichever team has the most assets. Desperate and pathetic. LeBron is participation medals personified.
@@raw5889 you clearly don't understand the point of the video
I think one can make the argument that the real goat is the four legged animal with two horns that can produce milk.
i literally agree with you perfectly. you put it exactly how i feel.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan.
So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough.
And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
Legit had this same realisation at the end of this last season, u ain’t alone in this bro
I’ve legit got MJ at 51.09% versus Bron at 48.91%. MJ is my 🐐, but Bron is still active, so he has a chance. Either way, it’s going to end up being very close.
Lol the double decimals. I respect that take a lot. I like the takes that have it close. I don't like the takes when someone has it 80-20 either way.
has the olympics and the scoring record changed it towards bron now?
@@parico4489 It’s been what - 2 years since this comment!? 😂
So, I’ve actually updated my ranking system, and it has two (2) levels: 1) Best Overall Career & 2) Best Overall Player.
I won’t go into detail about how I score things, but currently I have LeBron ranked as having the best overall career (66.1), and Jordan in second (65.7).
However, regarding best overall player, I have Jordan ranked first (43.80), while LeBron is ranked fourth (31.48). Second place is Magic (34.23), while third is Bird (32.15).
What this shows is that no one comes close to Jordan’s dominance as an individual player. It also shows that LeBron’s career score is enhanced by his longevity, which is not a knock against him, as his longevity is part of what makes him one of the greatest to ever play the game.
At this point, you're the GOAT of making GOAT themed youtube videos, rusty
Thank you. I 100% agree. It’s literally impossible to pick one or the other because they both have a case of being the GOAT and their fans are always caught up in a never ending slander fest on both sides. Me personally I’d give the GOAT title to Lebron by a slight margin, but if people tell me MJ is the GOAT, I have no problem with that. But to use mistakes they made in the past just to tear them down to boost the other is egregious. At that point I just gave up and made both of them the GOAT
You hit the nail on the head with the tearing down the other player idea. Kudos
I love the quality and consistency of your content man, you and Alex Hoops are constantly hitting my feed with gems
I think it’s perfectly fine to have multiple people as your GOAT opinions are open so you shouldn’t be restricted to just one
they are both the goats of our heart and soul and we know one of them is more important.....On a serious note it's incredibly hard to compare the both of them they both played in different eras with vastly different team importance structure because as a general manager now if you had a talent like Jordan you would put him with a lot of shooters they really didn't do that with Jordan,
I do think it is stupid to compare across era's for the fact that the rules are different the allowed level of violence is way different the overall team structure is different the amount of players allowed to thrive and see what they can do is different it's just really hard to compare.
Well done. Rationality like this is nice. Thank you.
Hey Rusty I agree with you but what if Lebron wins another title? Or keeps all nba level by 40?
In my opinion I feel like lebron and Jordan are tied however if I had to pick I’d pick lebron just based off of him just being more all around
at the end he said that when LeBron retires that he might consider him the sole goat.
I consider mj the 🐐 but if lebron wins a title or all nba at 40 I gotta go with bron
I got MJ only slightly ahead of bron which hurts sometimes cuz I'm a bron fan but how is he more all round , he passes better for sure but his assists numbers are only 1 or 2 averages higher despite being the fact MJ played in a system and couldn't have the ball as much as bron did , mj was better off ball , a better defender , better jumpshot and as paint protectors they averaged the same blocks , Bron has like 1 more rebound per game , but he should cuz he's like 3 inches taller, among small forwards he isn't very high on rebounds while MJ is one of the best at his position
@@jonnstewart2023 Prime MJ is not a better defender, Prime LeBron could guard 1-4 and sometimes five and is one of the greatest help defenders ever. He should've won DPOY in 2013
I just think of it as a tier list than an actual ranking. Kareem is also GOAT tier
My homie Nick always used the term GOATs. He'd say Jordan is a GOAT, Kobe is a GOAT, LeBron is a GOAT... This is a philosophy I subscribe to, as well. To me, there are around 7 guys with really great claims, depending on what you prefer. Personally, I don't have a GOAT, even as I have a favorite player
Yeah but one of the has the best argument. I don't know why that's so hard to admit.
agree with you there except for the kobe one... really 1 MVP for 20 seasons. that aint it
@@robertoloor285Kobe and Shaq only have 1 MVP each and we know why. you guys keep acting willfully ignorant as if the NBA and its media members were supposed to promote Kobe to "Face of the NBA" coming off a rape case. Go ahead and ask Carmelo where his Rookie of the Year is while you're at it
@@raw5889 that's a personal opinion based on your criteria and biases. Why is that so hard to admit?
@@YouCallThataKnife253 Regardless if it's opinion based, my criteria or yours, someone is better than the rest. Y'all so damn concerned with showing the proper worship to these athletes, that you wanna act like is ten eleven twelve way tie, it's not.
finally i’ve literally been saying this for the past couple of years they share the goat status. great take
I’m happy to hear that someone else has this take. I’ve felt this way for a while, but I’ve always felt that I was wrong in not choosing a goat.
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan.
So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough.
And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
@@pp3k3jamailI don’t think that this debate is over given the amount of positive attribute each player has going for them. I completely get why you would choose Jordan over LeBron though. I just wouldn’t do that personally since I think LBJ’s longevity with his amount of talent is equally as difficult and impressive as MJ’s stainless record and impeccable peak.
@@DevenRamchandran y'all didn't see that video from 2 years ago with the guy who made the video between Jordan and LeBron. I don't know how y'all didn't see that video millions reacted to it. I'll give you the link right here it was so one-sided LeBron shouldn't even be in the discussion.
Jordan was the more clutch player by far, Jordan was the better leader, Jordan was the better shooter, Jordan was the better defensive player, Jordan lead his position in win shares far more than LeBron let his position.
Here's the link right here to the video this is all so instead of me telling you how much better Jordan was you can watch for yourself.
Link to the video ⬇️⬇️
th-cam.com/video/tl3mR6eoEa8/w-d-xo.html
The fact LeBron isnt done playing speaks for itself in the GOAT debate, we'll see how he ends his career.
They should stop calling players GOATs. These debates go on and on forever and eventually just get to the point of tearing down the other person rather than bring up a person's GOAT. Let's just all agree that we call both of them GOATS. Jordan is the GOAT of the 90s. Lebron is the GOAT of the 2010s. Kobe or Duncan can be the GOAT for 2000s. Magic or Bird can be GOAT of the 80s. Kareem can be the GOAT of the 70s. Russell or Chamberlin can be GOAT of the 60s. Done.
Duncan & Russell for the same reason
I agree, It's easier and makes more sense to compare players to their peers in the same era rather than comparing players from different eras like the 80s to the 2010s where you have two completely different basketball games being played.
no
Lol problem with that is the term literally includes "of all time"
This is nice but that’s not a GOAT. a GOAT is supposed to be literally the greatest of all time. These are the greatest players of the decade, sure. So maybe what you mean is that we focus on the greatest player of their respective eras.
that job resume analogy was awesome
Or eight players have a real case. I love the Making the Case series by Clayton Crowley and it completely opened my mind. I still tend to go with MJ or Lebron but I can't shut out the others. It is an open discussion and it is simply the discussion, not any answer, which holds the value.
I've never really thought about it like that, but now that you say it, it makes sense, I agree with you rusty!
I get what you're saying, but, I think I would take a perfectly polished 1 page resume over 2 pages that are great but with worse blunders. As far as the goat debate; whenever we can be honest and unbiased with both MJ and LBJs careers while adding context to their careers I think it will always reveal that MJ is the GOAT BUT I think LBJ is a close 2 if not 1B. I respect it either way.
I think adding context pushes lebrons case even further, most ppl jus look at his finals record and assume he lost cuz he was bad
@@GymbalPooh also looking at quality of roster/stability of team, since MJ had that luxury of having a team owner and front office who built an all time roster around him, while LBJ has not had that luxury for most of his career, so his 2007 and 2018 runs are seen more as LBJ feats rather than shortcomings
I'm sorry but this debate is over it's been countless reaction videos and a guy made a video 2 years ago already proven who the better player was and that's Jordan.
So the LeBron Jordan debate needs to stop it's old and it's tired and it's played out and it's already been proven that Jordan is the better player enough is enough.
And I'm not even a Michael Jordan fan but this debate needs to end.
RB the only channel I'd spend 12:07 of my life rehashing this damn conversation lmao - here we go *hits play*
I believe MJ is the GOAT, and I believe it for one reason. By the 1998 season, a 35 year MJ retired from basketball while still being the best player in the league and having won 6 rings. Up until that point, he had no major injuries and basically played in every regular season and playoff game.
There is no reason for me to believe the MJ didn't have 3-4 very good years left in him. He could have joined contenders like Portland, LA or Spurs and further his legacy by posting something close to 25 ppg and being the best or second best player in a championship team. MJ chose not to do this for his own reasons which are all well documented.
When talking about MJ longevity, we should all keep that in mind: MJ did not retire because he was washed, he retired because he was over it. He completed basketball, plain and simple. LeBron is still chasing all time records and rings to get to MJ's level. MJ could have done what LBJ is doing now. LBJ could not accomplish what MJ did in the same number of years and thus is still going.
That's my two cents, respectfully.
I understand where your coming from but I don’t think lebron is still playing to chase rings and records. I think he’s still playing because there is no real reason for him to stop. The best thing Mj did was retire in 1998 because the bulls weren’t winning another championship for sure and his legacy wouldn’t be as perfect if he moved
Lebron is still playing because he love basketball and because he is a competitor, Basketball isnt a 9-5 job at Mcdonald, it’s a passion so if basketball is really your passion you will play until you are washed just like Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, KG, Melo and all the other great.
What’s funny is how there are only 2 potential goats right now, imagine in 40 years and how many there are going to be. I feel like this is a topic that’s only getting started. Great video as always rusty
It’s going to be nearly impossible to make a top 10 people are happy with
In terms of talent, I think both of them are roughly equal despite very different play styles. With LeBron being more of an all-encompassing net, while Michael is more of a sharpened sword and sturdy shield.
So while on paper they could be 1a and 1b, in simplest terms there are two things that imo keep LeBron at #2:
- Michael still has a better balance between team and individual accomplishments.
- The "who did you stop?" narrative leans firmly in Michael's favor as almost every major contemporary superstar to LeBron has at least a neutral record against him. (Granted KD had to join Curry to offset his 2012 loss)
Brave and thoughtful stance. I applaud you. I disagree, but I can appreciate it. I still think MJ is the goat and that his peak was higher.
I've been saying for a few years Jordan goat peak for his 6 in 8 year 90s but people who don't respect Lebron's goat case I think are looking at it in a very unfair 6-0 vs 4-6 way which doesn't account for his tougher strength of finals opponents overall, several finals particularly 07, 15, 18 Finals where he was so undermanned that I'd hope any reasonable fan even a hater could agree Jordan wouldn't win in that situation either. And 2017 Warriors are the greatest team ever , and 2014 Spurs are the best version of their 20year 5 ring dynasty despite their age at the time, it's a stretch for me to say MJ would win those either.
Only knocks on LeBron for me that are reasonable is 2011 Finals and a weak East that certainly helped him make alot of Finals but it wasn't like it wasn't because he was playing amazing too.
The bonus is the extra 5 or more playing at a peak level when Jordan really only had 11 great seasons, his first 3 under .500 record and 1-9 playoffs.
LeBron played the Spurs and Warriors 7 times at their peak too, most of those times James having the undermanned roster. MJs best finals comp was imo the Sonics. Still nowhere close a caliber team to the likeliness of the Spurs and Warriors, that’s one thing LeBron has on MJ
How is it a knock on Michael that he achieved more in less time? Your problem is that you don't know anything about him.
To assume he couldn't beat the spurs or the warriors is proof of that.
@ juju 32 The problem is you’re applying context to Lebron’s finals losses without applying that same context to MJ’s ‘pre-finals playoff loses’. You have to be consistent. In 1985 MJ lost to a loaded 59-23 Bucks team lead by Sidney Moncrief and Terry Cummings, as well as great role players like Paul Pressey, whereas Mjs bulls were 38-44. The bulls lost that series 3-1. In 1986, MJ was swept by Larry Bird’s Celtics, who are undoubtedly one of the greatest teams of all time, they went 67-15 and they were 40-1 at home, meanwhile, the bulls were 30-52, MJ only played 18 regular season games, but at the end of the day, the bulls were a mediocre team. In 1987, the bulls got swept again by the Celtics, the Celtics went 59-23, whilst the Bulls were 40-42. So when applying context to MJs 1-9 record, he got swept by the 1986 nba champions, who had one of the greatest team records ever, and have the joint nba record for the best regular season home record (40-1), and he was also swept by the 1987 Celtics that lost to the Lakers in the finals. The singular win he was able to get was against a much superior Bucks team in the 1985 nba playoffs, although they did get swept in the second round by the 76ers. If you’re going to recognise that Lebron was undermanned in the 07,15,18 finals, then you need to also recognise that MJ was undermanned in all the series that comprise his 1-9 record, especially the 1986, and 1987 playoff loses against the Celtics. Additionally, the 1986 Celtics are also one of the greatest teams of all time, not better than the 2017 warriors, but they’re just as good as the 2014 Spurs, maybe even better.
@@BayAreaHoops415 I agree with you, but if we apply this context to Lebron facing tougher competition in the finals, then we also have to recognise that MJ played much tougher competition prior to the finals. The Bad Boy Pistons and the 80s Celtics are better than any team Lebron has ever faced prior to the finals, then MJ also had to get through great Pacers, Knicks, Heat, Magic, Hawks, and Cavs teams in order to make the finals. Lebron still obviously played some great teams prior to the finals, but the eastern conference when Lebron was in the East was much weaker than the Eastern conference that MJ played in.
@@joshuaarawole8589 I get that but, beating a lot of good teams isn’t as impressive as beating great teams
jxmy had a similar analogy of candles, where mjs flame burned brighter but Lebrons burned longer
idk why lebron stans got such a problem with him being the 2nd best player to ever pick a basketball. Like thats a massive achievement but for some reason they cant accept that hes not number 1 which he cant possibly reach now in his career. The bubble ring was valid but he just doesnt have it at 4-6 im sorry
You can say the exact same thing in reverse tho
@@jakobreagan2592 no u can't because it wouldn't make sense in reverse. Jordan has a superior resume to LeBron and more rings in less attempts
@@colewrld901 simply comparing how many rings players have and basing part of your argument on that, does not make for a good argument. You have to look at each ring individually and see how impressive it was.
@@colewrld901 okay and lebron has much better longevity and statistical achievements plus his overall game could be argued to be better than Jordans. I have MJ as the goat but y’all MJ stand have to realize that almost every argument you make as to why lebron can’t be the goat can be thrown back at you in a modified version
@@sheeb3050 or I can look at one guy being under 500 hundred in finals attempts 🤷 couldn't even compare the difficulty of their rings, cause LeBron doesn't have enough
I really agree both had different types of greatest of all time careers so I honestly don’t think either answer is wrong and the answer of both is probably most fair to both their accomplishments
I have a lot of trouble saying that lebron is the GOAT after 2011. As great as he has been, he didn’t show up on the final stage. I give lebron a pass on the warriors titles and huge props for the Cleveland title. I just can’t get past the fact that he lost with a super team against a mavs team with one star
One of the better explanations on the GOAT debate. Nailed it on the résumé metaphor.
Thank you. This is what I’ve been saying for so long. LeBron and MJ are different players. They excel in different areas. There is more than 1 way to be great. If you want to talk about winning it’s MJ, he is a better winner but LeBron is the all around better player and that’s honestly not close.
People gave this image of MJ (and rightfully so) so they just trash Bron to make MJ seem that much better. I have never in my life heard a LeBron fan try and say MJ isn’t an all time great but we see time and time again mj fans trash LeBron and try and make him seem like he’s lesser
Then you clearly haven't been around social media long enough.
You clearly don’t know any LeBron fans. Did you know that if it wasn’t for Scotty Pippin Dennis Rodman and Phil Jackson carring Michael Jordan he would’ve never been successful
Ngl, it's mad relatable how he said he watched NBA footage when he had no friends
How does this affect LeBron’s legacy tho?
I’ve never seen anything quite like this
SKIUPPP
Let’s go back and see what happened in 2011 we have never seen this big of a meltdown from a superstar in any sport -skip
Man this video can be sum up in one sentence
"It's up to you"
At this point … they really 1a and 1b to me I think bron is the goat but if you have MJ I can’t be mad ..
Same
Lol just admit ya boy is shit. He doesn't stack up at all.
To me longevity can’t overtake a significant peak. You could be the best player in the league for 8 years or 25. If you’re the best… you’re just the best. If Grant Hill had been say 30% better & wiped the floor with the league and won 4 or 5 championships in the 90s before going down with injuries like he did, then he could’ve been the goat.
Nah MJ is the goat. LeBron is under 500 in championship games, which would make him the only under 500 sports goat
lebron has had harder finals comp.He faced both the 2014 spurs team as well as the 2017 warriors which are both candidates for the greatest team of all time.Lebrons only indefensible loss was the 2011 playoffs.Aside from that he won every finals he was favored in. Not to mention mj only being the underdog only once in the finals against magic
@@williamingwerson4692 y'all only call the 2014 spurs an all time great team cause they destroyed LeBron. If LeBron won, people would say oh it was an old team 😂 not giving him a pass for losing that finals and 2017 he had a big 3 and couldn't even make it competitive 😑 and Jordan wasn't the underdog in 5 of his finals because he was that dominant. He didn't show a track record of losing finals he wasn't supposed to lose lol....cough cough...2011
@@colewrld901 he had the goat coach and an all nba caliber sidekick plus a great supporting cast.The best teams mj went up against was probably the sun's team and they only had 1 star in barkley.The 2017 warriors had 4 all stars on their team.Steph and kd are mvp candidates,klay was liable for going off for 40 on any given night and draymond was a dpoy and all nba level player. As for the 2014 spurs they played arguably the greatest team basketball of all time.Mj lost to a pistons team that was a lot worse than any of the warriors squads from 2016 onwards
@@williamingwerson4692big 3 losing to an old Tim Duncan 😭😂
Both have absolutely incredible accomplishments.
growing up in Cleveland seeing everything transpire the burned jerseys the playoff performances the return the comeback and being a jordan stan I can honestly say that I agree 1A and 1A
We will never come close to an answer for who is the goat. Oldheads will never give up the Jordan argument even if lebron is clearly better. And over time older players will be forgotten. There will never be a real answer.
This is a great video. It’s really either or at this point between MJ and Bron. They really played different games when you look at the rules, mentality, etc. Take your pick, don’t be an ass
i agree with the maybe in the title. Good video and take.
This is a fresh point of view.
Finally, a heart!
That resume metaphor really nailed it. You said a perfect resume vs a longer resume with some blemishes. I'd go perfection over quantity. Give you another metaphor...I'd take a perfect looking rich chick over a nice looking lady with some money and a really cute puppy.
Keep up the great work man! Love to see it!
I have thought this way for a while and I completely agree
To be honest I wish everyone can agree they are both the best.
Shutup
Now that you have presented it like that I totally agree and it makes sense lol
I actually agree with you! Great take
i rly agree ngl i’ve been thinking about it a lot this summer
I feel pretty similar to you honestly. I don’t feel right putting either above each other. Both of them are solidly the greatest two to ever play
I really like the resume metaphor fr
I agree it's too hard it's too close right now
4:12 Rusty was watching LOW’s video😂😂😂
My friend that was beautiful & this will now be the location I refer people to to help clarify my new somehow more reasonable take
They are on the same Tier. You hit a certain level of greatness and unless you’re like Brady (several more championships than anyone else , clearly lead those teams almost “on his own” for nearly 2x the avg career length) there’s no getting better. Like you’d need 8 rings at this rate