I think bear cavalry should be an easy A-tier.... but then I realized it HEAVILY depends on their pairings. Literally any faction that adds ongoing extra power is amazing with them, but alone I guess they only have one strong card: The High Ground. I guess you could say.... it's over, anakin
You underestimate bear cavalries power... You're not wrong, they rely on a partner to really make them good. Left to their own devices though apart from High Ground it's all pretty 'meh'.
If we're going to rank factions based off their potential with partners than Pirates will be at the top list. Pour tons of power onto your First Mates and watch them ride. It is possible to get infinite VP by having a first mate with a power level higher than the breakpoint of any base in the game (or higher than all except one, you can keep one out forever and have him bounce between the other two indefinitely). I've seen this done with Pirates Ants and "We Will Rock You". Unfortunately there are zero ways of giving a minion permanent power boost within the pirate deck.
question on the rules it self. Can you play more then one cards of your own that says "Play on Base" on single base? or can 2 or more be played on a single base?
Yes, you can play as many play on base actions as you want on the same base. They can even have the same name if you want (as in, you can even play duplicates on the same base). Same for play on minion actions.
Is there weighting for each catagory? I realize this is supposed to be objective, but if someone looks at this to decide pairings they will run into issues. with Zombies in c tier they will think this is a safe pick that wont be too strong, but then almost anything else they pick it becomes a very strong pairing. This is because recovery is one of the strongest mechanics the game has, probably the strongest when its recovery directly to play. They have recovery in spades. Similarly Steampunk in D tier, it will get picked cause objectively its weak (on this list), then in practice its not at all cause it has recovery and recovery to play in combination with burst. I also think movement is objectively stronger than destruction. Destruction has its place but most the time it slows down scoring bases whereas movement lets you use someone else to break a base you couldnt otherwise break while also getting rid of their minion. Almost like pseudo extra plays mixed with disruption.
I mentioned in the video that weighting the categories is really tricky. I agree that recovery is very strong but so are all of the characteristics in fairness. If zombies paired with anything gets rolled by a pairing with loads of draw and burst (halfling/robots for instance), actually recovery is kind of irrelevant in that game because the game doesn't go on long enough. Weighting characteristics starts to get caught up with faction identity, the partner faction, and the opposition factions. Going back to the previous point though, I'd struggle to say if Recovery were better than Phase 3 plays, or Draw Power were better than Burst and so on. I think ultimately it doesn't matter in the context of considering factions in isolation, and I hope that comes across clearly, as hopefully, people viewing this can see where each factions strengths are and make those conclusions that you talked about. The factions towards the lower end are there because they rely more on good pairings than being able to carry their own weight. Speaking subjectively here, outside of a handful of really great pairings, I think Steampunks are very average at best. We could be here all day debating movement haha. I agree on mass movement mechanics, but bog standard moving individual minions can be good short term (ideally the turn you win the game), but long term doesn't actually prevent your opponents from scoring VP. You can make them score inefficiently but they still score, and will win bases (putting aside the fact that you're hoping favourable bases for that strategy actually come out). If you have the controlling effect every turn, with destruction your opponent can only try to score one base at a time, the base they play their minion for turn on, with movement they're scoring multiple bases, the base they choose to play their minion for turn on, and the base you're moving minions to. Good points though, I love discussing this sort of thing!
@@ThatSmashUpChannel zombies carry their own weight and increase the strength of any faction they play with. Being able to abuse just a few strong cards is why recovery I think is the strongest. You can have draw as much as u want but it won't matter if the cards u play are average. Almost no game goes fast enough for recovery to not be a factor. This applies to steam punk also as they only need themselves for strong plays but can also enhance an opponent, whether it be other play on base (mechanic) or action in general (scrap diving). In fact, steampunk have all the best mechanics in one, draw, recovery, extra plays and burst, as well as movement. Objectively they have one of the best burst cards in the game and best recovery. Destruction I see as worse than movement cause usually those factions don't help make up for the lost power on the base well enough and their combo ends up not being able to score stuff. Also, there is alot more destruction protection compared to movement blocking. I will say destruction might be better in 1v1 but most my opinions are for 3p, 1v1 destruction get oppressive for sure.
I would say to that though that recovery is only good if you can actually draw into those strong cards, which is where zombies fall down by having weak draw. If you think of recovery like a convex curve, where it gets stronger the longer the game goes on, if you're too far behind by that point though, even the strongest recovery won't make up the VP difference. As for Steampunks they've been power crept by Ancient Incas. They have better draw (Difference Engine vs Temple of the Sun, Incan Engineer, Sapa Inca), better, albeit different, power cards (Rotary Slug Thrower, Aggromotive vs 2x Armoury 2x Fortress Walls), Royal Highway for movement, Llamas, Child of the Sun, Golden Condor for extra actions, Ashlar Masonry and Quipu Strings for recovery. Steampunks have a little better action recovery, but all in all they haven't aged well. I agree that destruction protection is more prevalent than movement blocking, on movement, more factions have cards that let them move their minions than let them get those same minions back from the discard pile. Using steampunks as an example because we've talked about them a lot, if you destroy the mechanic they have the wait until their discard is shuffled back into their deck to play it again. If you move mechanic, unless you're breaking the base that turn, they can always just move it right back to the base where you moved it from. There also seems to be a decent number of bases that let you move minions around. This is the beauty of 'ranking' anything, it's going to generate debate because everyone has their own thoughts and ideas of what's important, powerful, useful etc. I just didn't want this to be a list of "well I think Steampunks are great and I prefer playing them to Ghosts so I'm going to say they're A-Tier".
@@ThatSmashUpChannel Think of this this way. Pair every faction with Ghosts and pair every faction with Zombies and steampunks. Zombies would easily have the strongest average pairings, then steam punk then ghosts. Ghosts are the most niche of them. This is objective to me, it takes away the outside of certain partners debate. Steam punk and Zombies would have more S tier strength combos and fewer F tier strength than ghosts (much different with titan) . i also dont think incas power crept steampunk and i think they perform different roles. Steampunk have a much higher single turn burst, incas need some time for their burst to hit hard. Steampunk also have normal action recursion not just base action and much better movement and draw. Incas are also really good but in different ways, i have them around the same strength overall. If i move mechanic off im either doing it cause im going to score the base without them or im just slowing them down. With destruction all you do is slow them down, its less versatile. Movement atleast has the option of using opponents power against them and destruction doesnt and has to make up for the lost power. Recover doesnt only abuse the really strong cards, it abuses all cards. It takes away the need for draw cause now your discard is a draw pile you get to choose out of. This starts working after 1 base scores. It also scales, if its strong cards its even better, draw stays the same.
You could well be right in your assertion, and I'd be inclined to agree that Zombies would have more top tier pairings than Ghosts and Steampunks (although not necessarily that Steampunks would have more than Ghosts). You've also highlighted the issue though. The way you've described would be the best way to do a Smash Up Tier List, play every possible pairing several times (preferably against every other possible pairing) at 2, 3 and 4 player counts and rank the strength of pairings (ideally in a controlled environment - same players, same turn order etc), but it just isn't possible. This is the best way that I could think of, and I think it does help to highlight: what factions do well/don't do well, what factions are independently strong, what factions are strong in combination. One thing we've not mentioned in the movement vs destruction discussion is the denial of abilities, if you move invader, archmage etc and you don't break the base that turn, then they still have access to ongoing abilities, or the card is still available for them to replay the ability, whereas destruction denies that, the Aliens can't do anything about an invader in the discard pile. In general though, all I can do is reiterate what I've already said in my responses above, I don't think we're going to be able to convince the other on this debate haha! I agree that movement on short term plays can be very strong but not over the long term. I agree that recovery is strong but referencing back to the first paragraph of my previous response recovery is dependent on draw (and extra plays ideally to get more stuff in the discard faster). And again I'd have to reference back to the first two paragraphs of my first reply regarding weighting characteristics and how difficult it is. We should do a debate video haha! :)
I eventually will do them all, glad you liked it!. They take so long to make though. My intention is that the next video I do (not the discussion ones) will be the next tier list video.
I put several disclaimers at that start of these videos about how I came up with the tier list, as well as what the optimum tier list would be (and how this wouldn't be possible). The point of this tier list is that it isn't based on what I think (as much as possible). It's an attempt at an objective assessment of each faction on its own merit. Zombies are a strong partner faction that major on only one thing, but their individual strength comes from Tenacious Z alone. Their strength comes from recovering your partner faction cards, not Zombie ones. How many times do you recover Zombie cards with Zombie cards for example? I won't go into the arguments about what the strongest mechanic is as I've discussed it a lot in the comments on the tier list videos, but good luck recovering cards without card draw. I'd be happy to take a look at your tier list if you'd care to share it?
I think bear cavalry should be an easy A-tier.... but then I realized it HEAVILY depends on their pairings. Literally any faction that adds ongoing extra power is amazing with them, but alone I guess they only have one strong card: The High Ground.
I guess you could say.... it's over, anakin
You underestimate bear cavalries power...
You're not wrong, they rely on a partner to really make them good. Left to their own devices though apart from High Ground it's all pretty 'meh'.
If we're going to rank factions based off their potential with partners than Pirates will be at the top list. Pour tons of power onto your First Mates and watch them ride. It is possible to get infinite VP by having a first mate with a power level higher than the breakpoint of any base in the game (or higher than all except one, you can keep one out forever and have him bounce between the other two indefinitely). I've seen this done with Pirates Ants and "We Will Rock You".
Unfortunately there are zero ways of giving a minion permanent power boost within the pirate deck.
question on the rules it self. Can you play more then one cards of your own that says "Play on Base" on single base? or can 2 or more be played on a single base?
Yes, you can play as many play on base actions as you want on the same base. They can even have the same name if you want (as in, you can even play duplicates on the same base). Same for play on minion actions.
Nice video. Could you do the other expansions?
Eventually perhaps, they just take so long to do!
Is there weighting for each catagory? I realize this is supposed to be objective, but if someone looks at this to decide pairings they will run into issues. with Zombies in c tier they will think this is a safe pick that wont be too strong, but then almost anything else they pick it becomes a very strong pairing. This is because recovery is one of the strongest mechanics the game has, probably the strongest when its recovery directly to play. They have recovery in spades. Similarly Steampunk in D tier, it will get picked cause objectively its weak (on this list), then in practice its not at all cause it has recovery and recovery to play in combination with burst.
I also think movement is objectively stronger than destruction. Destruction has its place but most the time it slows down scoring bases whereas movement lets you use someone else to break a base you couldnt otherwise break while also getting rid of their minion. Almost like pseudo extra plays mixed with disruption.
I mentioned in the video that weighting the categories is really tricky. I agree that recovery is very strong but so are all of the characteristics in fairness. If zombies paired with anything gets rolled by a pairing with loads of draw and burst (halfling/robots for instance), actually recovery is kind of irrelevant in that game because the game doesn't go on long enough. Weighting characteristics starts to get caught up with faction identity, the partner faction, and the opposition factions.
Going back to the previous point though, I'd struggle to say if Recovery were better than Phase 3 plays, or Draw Power were better than Burst and so on. I think ultimately it doesn't matter in the context of considering factions in isolation, and I hope that comes across clearly, as hopefully, people viewing this can see where each factions strengths are and make those conclusions that you talked about. The factions towards the lower end are there because they rely more on good pairings than being able to carry their own weight.
Speaking subjectively here, outside of a handful of really great pairings, I think Steampunks are very average at best.
We could be here all day debating movement haha. I agree on mass movement mechanics, but bog standard moving individual minions can be good short term (ideally the turn you win the game), but long term doesn't actually prevent your opponents from scoring VP. You can make them score inefficiently but they still score, and will win bases (putting aside the fact that you're hoping favourable bases for that strategy actually come out). If you have the controlling effect every turn, with destruction your opponent can only try to score one base at a time, the base they play their minion for turn on, with movement they're scoring multiple bases, the base they choose to play their minion for turn on, and the base you're moving minions to.
Good points though, I love discussing this sort of thing!
@@ThatSmashUpChannel zombies carry their own weight and increase the strength of any faction they play with. Being able to abuse just a few strong cards is why recovery I think is the strongest. You can have draw as much as u want but it won't matter if the cards u play are average. Almost no game goes fast enough for recovery to not be a factor. This applies to steam punk also as they only need themselves for strong plays but can also enhance an opponent, whether it be other play on base (mechanic) or action in general (scrap diving). In fact, steampunk have all the best mechanics in one, draw, recovery, extra plays and burst, as well as movement. Objectively they have one of the best burst cards in the game and best recovery.
Destruction I see as worse than movement cause usually those factions don't help make up for the lost power on the base well enough and their combo ends up not being able to score stuff. Also, there is alot more destruction protection compared to movement blocking. I will say destruction might be better in 1v1 but most my opinions are for 3p, 1v1 destruction get oppressive for sure.
I would say to that though that recovery is only good if you can actually draw into those strong cards, which is where zombies fall down by having weak draw. If you think of recovery like a convex curve, where it gets stronger the longer the game goes on, if you're too far behind by that point though, even the strongest recovery won't make up the VP difference.
As for Steampunks they've been power crept by Ancient Incas. They have better draw (Difference Engine vs Temple of the Sun, Incan Engineer, Sapa Inca), better, albeit different, power cards (Rotary Slug Thrower, Aggromotive vs 2x Armoury 2x Fortress Walls), Royal Highway for movement, Llamas, Child of the Sun, Golden Condor for extra actions, Ashlar Masonry and Quipu Strings for recovery. Steampunks have a little better action recovery, but all in all they haven't aged well.
I agree that destruction protection is more prevalent than movement blocking, on movement, more factions have cards that let them move their minions than let them get those same minions back from the discard pile. Using steampunks as an example because we've talked about them a lot, if you destroy the mechanic they have the wait until their discard is shuffled back into their deck to play it again. If you move mechanic, unless you're breaking the base that turn, they can always just move it right back to the base where you moved it from. There also seems to be a decent number of bases that let you move minions around.
This is the beauty of 'ranking' anything, it's going to generate debate because everyone has their own thoughts and ideas of what's important, powerful, useful etc. I just didn't want this to be a list of "well I think Steampunks are great and I prefer playing them to Ghosts so I'm going to say they're A-Tier".
@@ThatSmashUpChannel Think of this this way. Pair every faction with Ghosts and pair every faction with Zombies and steampunks. Zombies would easily have the strongest average pairings, then steam punk then ghosts. Ghosts are the most niche of them. This is objective to me, it takes away the outside of certain partners debate. Steam punk and Zombies would have more S tier strength combos and fewer F tier strength than ghosts (much different with titan)
.
i also dont think incas power crept steampunk and i think they perform different roles. Steampunk have a much higher single turn burst, incas need some time for their burst to hit hard. Steampunk also have normal action recursion not just base action and much better movement and draw. Incas are also really good but in different ways, i have them around the same strength overall.
If i move mechanic off im either doing it cause im going to score the base without them or im just slowing them down. With destruction all you do is slow them down, its less versatile. Movement atleast has the option of using opponents power against them and destruction doesnt and has to make up for the lost power.
Recover doesnt only abuse the really strong cards, it abuses all cards. It takes away the need for draw cause now your discard is a draw pile you get to choose out of. This starts working after 1 base scores. It also scales, if its strong cards its even better, draw stays the same.
You could well be right in your assertion, and I'd be inclined to agree that Zombies would have more top tier pairings than Ghosts and Steampunks (although not necessarily that Steampunks would have more than Ghosts). You've also highlighted the issue though. The way you've described would be the best way to do a Smash Up Tier List, play every possible pairing several times (preferably against every other possible pairing) at 2, 3 and 4 player counts and rank the strength of pairings (ideally in a controlled environment - same players, same turn order etc), but it just isn't possible. This is the best way that I could think of, and I think it does help to highlight: what factions do well/don't do well, what factions are independently strong, what factions are strong in combination.
One thing we've not mentioned in the movement vs destruction discussion is the denial of abilities, if you move invader, archmage etc and you don't break the base that turn, then they still have access to ongoing abilities, or the card is still available for them to replay the ability, whereas destruction denies that, the Aliens can't do anything about an invader in the discard pile.
In general though, all I can do is reiterate what I've already said in my responses above, I don't think we're going to be able to convince the other on this debate haha! I agree that movement on short term plays can be very strong but not over the long term.
I agree that recovery is strong but referencing back to the first paragraph of my previous response recovery is dependent on draw (and extra plays ideally to get more stuff in the discard faster). And again I'd have to reference back to the first two paragraphs of my first reply regarding weighting characteristics and how difficult it is.
We should do a debate video haha! :)
You should do more of these! 😁
I eventually will do them all, glad you liked it!. They take so long to make though. My intention is that the next video I do (not the discussion ones) will be the next tier list video.
@@ThatSmashUpChannel When's the next one!? Some of the best vids on YT
@@kenzofromtheyu-gi-squad2601 Tomorrow if all goes well haha
Thanks by the way!
@@ThatSmashUpChannel Shit the legend actually replied let's go
Any tier list that has zombies as the 6th best faction just doesn't understand the game
I put several disclaimers at that start of these videos about how I came up with the tier list, as well as what the optimum tier list would be (and how this wouldn't be possible).
The point of this tier list is that it isn't based on what I think (as much as possible). It's an attempt at an objective assessment of each faction on its own merit.
Zombies are a strong partner faction that major on only one thing, but their individual strength comes from Tenacious Z alone. Their strength comes from recovering your partner faction cards, not Zombie ones. How many times do you recover Zombie cards with Zombie cards for example?
I won't go into the arguments about what the strongest mechanic is as I've discussed it a lot in the comments on the tier list videos, but good luck recovering cards without card draw.
I'd be happy to take a look at your tier list if you'd care to share it?