Thank you to GoldenSound, Passionforsound, and WaveTheory for joining the third roundtable. Apologies for the sound imbalance. Brian had a new mic and the gain was initially set too high. Cameron's internet was being a bit slow, so if there are any drop-outs, apologies. I couldn't find the option to allow "Live Chat Replay" in the settings, so some of the great comments people made aren't available. Thank you everyone who watched and commented, as well as those of you who gave me a Super Chat.
It's an interesting subject, and it made for a very interesting discussion. Appreciate you fellas sharing your thoughts. It's all so personal and preferential. I don't even know how to properly contextual it to friends who ask for recommendations. I don't think you have to spend thousands of dollars to enjoy music in high resolution but I also think you could and it be worth every penny. I like GS' advice of knowing your comfort level with spending or otherwise said, don't go into debt for audio. I have come to dislike when people talk about "upgrade paths". Just enjoy what you have. There's any number of us who "upgraded" only to come back to the stuff we were listening with originally, you see it all the time. It can be a very forest-for-trees hobby with a lot of rationalizing analyzing tree bark. Again, appreciate the discussion. Happy listening y'all ✌️
Love this interaction it gives us a more human perspective of your thoughts about different topics and where you guys agree and disagree. Been a follower for many years of Currawong and passion for sound to this day both of you guys are the ones I consider your opinion more closely. Thanx for your hard work!
Thank you for this. Great discussion. It’s also really cool you shared what you think is a really good value product and what isn’t for you. I would have loved to hear more of that. Every audiophile (or I would assume a lot) want to hear about products that are huge jumps of value of $500 or more with the competition. That way you feel good about spending a decent amount on a product.
Thanks guys for a very interesting discussion; for a newbie like myself, the comment I find intriguing is the point made that it is a journey and that trying new gear is about the experience and discovering new sounds. Music has always been a big part of my life but I only started the audiophile journey truly in my 50s after I stopped my professional work. In a very short space of time, I am appreciating modern jazz and jazz singers because of I am hearing from my gear. And that has driven me to explore new elements in the chain such as OTL tube amps and makes me wonder about DACs too, in that order. And because I have dived into "mid-tier" headphones from the get-go, I am starting to feel that my source, dacs and amps need further attention/upgrade.
My view matches that of Michael Lavorgna who puts it like this. “ Trying to apply the law of diminishing returns to hifi makes no sense because the value of listening to music is not measured by price/performance, its measure is enjoyment.”
100% and this applies to any expensive hobby in life whether it comes to time investment or financial cost. Only the individual in question can determine how much value to put on something esoteric (yet so visceral) like euphoria from certain passages of your favorite music in between great combos. In other words, you can't assign financial diminishing returns to a subjective quality (the joy of music and its emotional response). It's not something objective like getting a gaming PC and picking your parts to measure cost per unit frame.
4 of my favorite reviewers… the only one missing is Sandu from sound news! My rule of thumb in budgets < 700 go iem < 2.5k go headphones > 2.5k go 2 channel
I think it’s important to understand that beyond a certain price point. What we are aiming at is a particular sound experience. It won’t make much sense to purchase all Dan Clark Audio models as a collection, because they all have a certain house sound. A sound which is neutral’ish but still alike. I have just to my astonishment ordered a Sony Mdr Z1R at a discount, because it’s different. It’s probably out of production soon, and now was the time to get it. Had I waited I might not have been able to purchase its unique, somewhat coloured but captivating sound. Next year I can purchase neutrally if I get the urge. Greetings from Denmark
Me and my friend (non audiophile) had a conversation (short of an argument), that spending 20$ for a headphone show is worthy or not worthy. He said that,that is the stupid way to spend money, and you are not even buying anything why do you want to spend that much for only listening for a day. I said that ' to experience different kinds of products from different prices, and if i like some product , i can short of compare different products with that particular one,and i may buy that one in future. Said that listening and experiencing high end headphones and equipments that i can't afford is worth it for me. I gave lot's of examples, like comparing cars,mobiles,brand value etc. but he takes everything literally as it is. He just couldn't agree with me and we argued for about 4 hours. No final conclusion arrived. So "IT ONLY DEPENDS ON THE PERSON HIMSELF. OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ARE NOT APPLICABLE/INVALID".
I've been rotating high end gear for years and was recently impressed by the AirPods Pro 2 especially with the Dolby Atmos songs on Apple Music. I have sold all my IEM's and simplified life with amazing lossless sound and convenience from my iPhone.
I’m still on my hd650 and contemplating to stick with it since quite a bit of my music isn’t the most resolving, specially some electronic and modern rap, but 650 makes everything sound great. I’m running a zen sig stack (has been a really nice upgrade for the 650), would be nice to get a review, i got a pair of ipower x power supplies with it which are supposed to be pretty nice to get clean power. Love your reviews and the information you give :D
Given that Benchmark once recommended the HD-650 to be used with their DAC1 and even used to sell both in a bundle due to the great neutrality, I think we're both still very fine with it, depsite that true audiophiles never find piece and never rest, always hunting a mirage of audio perfection while entirely forgetting how bad human hearing unfortunately actually is compared to measurement instruments. One recommendation if that is up your alley musically as well: get the score of "Memoirs of a geisha" on CD and listen to it through the HD-650 and be astonished how "resolving" it can get without having spent a fortune.
In pure parts cost I feel electronics give you good value for money until $3000 or so. After that you pay mostly for good design and R&D rather than the parts cost. With headphones & speakers you hit the diminishing returns much faster in pure parts cost. But I feel the audio market is one of the best examples of free market competition driving innovation in product design for the benefit of consumers. Speakers in the $300-$2000 range sound much better now than they did 15 years ago, because competition forced everyone to raise the bar. They probably don't cost any more to make for the manufacturers, but the designs themselves are much more efficient in how the money spent translates into perceived audio quality. New speakers aren't nearly as boomy as they were in the mid to late 2000s. The worst value for money is in cables, but even there you get clearly audible improvements going from $50 to $100 and to $400. Cables are the hardest for a consumer to judge the quality of the design just by looking at what the manufacturer says in their marketing. It's also impossible to tell what if anything has improved in cable design over the past 20 years, which is very different from electronics and speakers.
Regarding headphones, according to most of these reviewers here the Susvara hasn't been equaled yet for detail and resolution for the price point, despite about 5 years of R&D by other companies. That is surprising. The Bravura does, according to Golden Sound, but you have to buy into the system to run it, so few are going to consider that actual advancement. I haven't seen enough reviews of the ZMF Caldera yet, maybe it will be the one to equal or surpass the Susvara, and hopefully not require a nuclear reactor to get it to perform. But even the flagships in the $4000-6000 other than the Meze Elites seem to need a system built around them to perform, and reviews for the new flagships from Dan Clark and Focal have been lukewarm to say the least. So, the wait continues.
@@chungang7037 Agreed, need more reviews for the ZMF Caldera. The latest round of TOTLs have kinda fallen flat, Elites, LCD-5s, Utopia 2022, Stealth/ Expanse, Yamaha 5000. Stax X9000 has been received well, but is not easily accessible for all given the electrostat niche. Next contender, Modhouse Tungsten?
The sum of all "it's your preference" boils down to the law of supply and demand. As we increase in quality, fonctionality and being at the forefront of technology (innovators and early adopters of the innovation adoption curve), there is less and less demand, like rarified air at altitude. Therefore, these features are not produced in mass and costing is increasingly inefficient. The law of diminishing returns is a consequence of these more fondamental laws. I would rather just acknowledge the diminishing returns not as a law but a perspective from a value standpoint.
Overtime within this hobby I've defined it for me by what my listening preferences are. I listen to a lot of underground meta which isn't produced super great all the time. Also that lends itself to certain headphones and certain types of amps.
Great discussion, similarly I find the Cayin RU7 to provide amazing sound that despite having an expensive desktop setup, i tend to use the RU7! BTW when can we expect a review on it? ;)
Interesting that you say IEMs are moving really fast lately in terms of tech due to being closer to their ceiling. It would make sense from an audio engineering perspective - people are still pursuing retro Hifi for analogue/vinyl and actually getting a better overall sound in the room - I've witnessed this firsthand. ChiFi has definitely accelerated the process and lowered the barrier to entry). Does this imply that TWS Bluetooth IEMs will reach that peak ceiling even faster? We've made tremendous strides in the last 2 years of TWS to the point that I can actually rate some of them a 7/10 and being satisfied with my Noble FoKus Pro/Mystique over the right codec. I've yet to see a TWS even cross the four figure range.
I reckon when they actually crack lossless transmission over BT (and it's not fake lossless, like MQA, or fake high-res like LDAC) then things will get very interesting.
There’s no need to go broke enjoying good / great sound ..after DECADES AND DECADES in this hobby ..in the end it comes down yo music ..and in this case..IEM’s and a nice amp/DAC or a smart phone with a music service or two. That’s IEM’s…you can have a varied stable and a decent source chain ..for the cost of what this august round table would consider “entry or mid tier” headphones. Stay well ..and if you’re in NY for the Can Jam ..have fun. And to my Australian brothers 🍻
Expensive gear is for people who thinks spending the other side of 20K or 30K brings quality. 20% can produce 80% of the 30K hype. The top 6 mega expensive headphones did nothing for me at CanJam
@@Currawong Well you review gear. I wish i had components from your rack. But Performance is getting cheaper which enables folks on a bugjet to upgrade
I got one recently. What a jump from the Modius! I’m in love. Of course I guess I am the perfect example of someone that didn’t make the small jumps to really know how much better this is than something in-between but either way I love this product. I’m a huge believer in R2R now and I love the fast filter for blow you away sound that isn’t harsh at all. And then I love Nos for more emotion and analogue like feel. I feel like I have everything. Source really does matter.
All equipment is the same and behind a curtain, you tell the subject that you have a $ 200 amp and a $5000 amp when you have the the same amps (200) behind the curtain. You ask the listener if they can tell, which one is the $5000 amp upon switching. When the listener says (oh, this one, it's so much better). Placebo effect. It would also work with cables, a $100 set, and a 5k set but the cables are the same and the listener picks one over the other. Placebo effect. At least that's how I view the placebo effect. The power of suggestion
This is an interesting topic, but a little moot. If you never get to actually hear high end gear, how are you going to know what you are missing (or not)? I know for myself, at some point I am not satisfied just taking another person's word for it, I need to hear it for myself. So how do I do that? The days of being able to audition gear has come and gone as far as I can see. Further, if I actually get to hear, say, a 15,000-dollar DAC, I may love it, but I know I will never be able to afford one, so what's the point? There is so much snake oil and overpriced crap in this industry it boggles the mind. So, you make your peace with that, work within your budget and try your best to make intelligent choices. And of course, everyone's budget will vary. Simple as that. Who cares about diminishing returns? Basic economics will drive what you can and cannot do.
Certainly the type of music you listen to plays a huge part in how far you will go up the chain of efficacy. For instance, I'm blessed with a lack of imagination and narrow interest in music...mostly folk. For this application I do feel resolution is paramount, or the entire frequency response. But I can see someone listening to classical - for instance, would be enticed to go the distance for resolution and dynamics.
Recently I upgraded from the sundara to focal clear og. The was a significant upgrade in almost all aspects except soundtage, which made me realise how much i value soundstage
Nobody NEEDS more than a $100 OpAmp and an HD660, that's 90% of the way there. It's all about chasing the dragon and enjoying the intricacy of refining a setup just for you
If there were a value chain from worst to best, people would stop buying gear eventually, but they don’t. Audiophiles are obsessive and compulsive, they will keep chasing imaginary improvements long past the point where they can be obtained. And yes, a lot of it is in fact related to the placebo effect, whereby if you expect something to be better, it’ll be, and if you expect something to be worse, it’ll be.
Yea but remember there is such a wide range of people in the hobby. A lot of people I’m guessing don’t have the money to keep buying a ton of stuff all the time. But sure, I’m sure there are plenty of people that do stay on the chase for something different.
Were you listening? That is not the Placebo Effect, nor is it related to it. That is a form of confirmation bias. And I'd also be very interested to know where your certainty that those chased improvements are imaginary comes from. Because there's certainly no hard data to back that up.
Ha ha I see mostly “younger” folks here….another element to diminishing returns is age,..my ears aren’t what they used to be..frequency over 16K forget about it…
In the case of the ones I've used, decades of research and development, plus a significant amount to the dealer and distributor. The costs and effort involved in producing a high-quality custom product are might higher and more difficult than many people imagine.
@@kellustzall3057 - I almost always end up with EQ back to zero - and therefore I prefer gear that doesn't have EQ, because I am paying for what I am not using. But of course, this is different for everybody.
Thank you to GoldenSound, Passionforsound, and WaveTheory for joining the third roundtable.
Apologies for the sound imbalance. Brian had a new mic and the gain was initially set too high.
Cameron's internet was being a bit slow, so if there are any drop-outs, apologies.
I couldn't find the option to allow "Live Chat Replay" in the settings, so some of the great comments people made aren't available.
Thank you everyone who watched and commented, as well as those of you who gave me a Super Chat.
And thank you for hosting! I had a blast.
Such an important and nuanced discussion on the topic, well done gents.
Thank you very much!
It's an interesting subject, and it made for a very interesting discussion. Appreciate you fellas sharing your thoughts. It's all so personal and preferential. I don't even know how to properly contextual it to friends who ask for recommendations. I don't think you have to spend thousands of dollars to enjoy music in high resolution but I also think you could and it be worth every penny. I like GS' advice of knowing your comfort level with spending or otherwise said, don't go into debt for audio. I have come to dislike when people talk about "upgrade paths". Just enjoy what you have. There's any number of us who "upgraded" only to come back to the stuff we were listening with originally, you see it all the time. It can be a very forest-for-trees hobby with a lot of rationalizing analyzing tree bark. Again, appreciate the discussion. Happy listening y'all ✌️
Love this interaction it gives us a more human perspective of your thoughts about different topics and where you guys agree and disagree. Been a follower for many years of Currawong and passion for sound to this day both of you guys are the ones I consider your opinion more closely. Thanx for your hard work!
Keep them coming. Great discussions.
"If you're enjoying yourself, who cares".
Thank you for this. Great discussion. It’s also really cool you shared what you think is a really good value product and what isn’t for you. I would have loved to hear more of that. Every audiophile (or I would assume a lot) want to hear about products that are huge jumps of value of $500 or more with the competition. That way you feel good about spending a decent amount on a product.
Thanks guys for a very interesting discussion; for a newbie like myself, the comment I find intriguing is the point made that it is a journey and that trying new gear is about the experience and discovering new sounds. Music has always been a big part of my life but I only started the audiophile journey truly in my 50s after I stopped my professional work. In a very short space of time, I am appreciating modern jazz and jazz singers because of I am hearing from my gear. And that has driven me to explore new elements in the chain such as OTL tube amps and makes me wonder about DACs too, in that order. And because I have dived into "mid-tier" headphones from the get-go, I am starting to feel that my source, dacs and amps need further attention/upgrade.
My view matches that of Michael Lavorgna who puts it like this. “ Trying to apply the law of diminishing returns to hifi makes no sense because the value of listening to music is not measured by price/performance, its measure is enjoyment.”
100% and this applies to any expensive hobby in life whether it comes to time investment or financial cost. Only the individual in question can determine how much value to put on something esoteric (yet so visceral) like euphoria from certain passages of your favorite music in between great combos.
In other words, you can't assign financial diminishing returns to a subjective quality (the joy of music and its emotional response). It's not something objective like getting a gaming PC and picking your parts to measure cost per unit frame.
4 of my favorite reviewers… the only one missing is Sandu from sound news! My rule of thumb in budgets < 700 go iem < 2.5k go headphones > 2.5k go 2 channel
Excellent gathering of minds. Very helpful, especially for those early in their music playback journey.
Thank you for the time and effort for this talk. Best, D. From STL.
I think it’s important to understand that beyond a certain price point. What we are aiming at is a particular sound experience. It won’t make much sense to purchase all Dan Clark Audio models as a collection, because they all have a certain house sound. A sound which is neutral’ish but still alike. I have just to my astonishment ordered a Sony Mdr Z1R at a discount, because it’s different. It’s probably out of production soon, and now was the time to get it. Had I waited I might not have been able to purchase its unique, somewhat coloured but captivating sound. Next year I can purchase neutrally if I get the urge. Greetings from Denmark
Really insightful and enjoyable. Thank you. Cheers Rob👍😎
Great discussion from the go to guys. It was affirming but also a reset for my future direction. Very informative. Thanks.
Fun listen, guys. Thanks.
I think this one is better than last one, well done🎉
Thanks for the conversation gents. I definitely feel a step closer to Purple.
Brings new meaning to "colored sound" doesn't it? 😆
Me and my friend (non audiophile) had a conversation (short of an argument), that spending 20$ for a headphone show is worthy or not worthy.
He said that,that is the stupid way to spend money, and you are not even buying anything why do you want to spend that much for only listening for a day.
I said that ' to experience different kinds of products from different prices, and if i like some product , i can short of compare different products with that particular one,and i may buy that one in future. Said that listening and experiencing high end headphones and equipments that i can't afford is worth it for me. I gave lot's of examples, like comparing cars,mobiles,brand value etc. but he takes everything literally as it is.
He just couldn't agree with me and we argued for about 4 hours. No final conclusion arrived.
So "IT ONLY DEPENDS ON THE PERSON HIMSELF. OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ARE NOT APPLICABLE/INVALID".
The graphs are a great add to the discussion WaveTheory
Thanks! I worked hard on those! 😆
Very enjoyable, thanks to you four.
I've been rotating high end gear for years and was recently impressed by the AirPods Pro 2 especially with the Dolby Atmos songs on Apple Music. I have sold all my IEM's and simplified life with amazing lossless sound and convenience from my iPhone.
I was using the Airpods Pro 2 today. I often use them for everything but listening to music, though sometimes for watching TH-cam.
I’m still on my hd650 and contemplating to stick with it since quite a bit of my music isn’t the most resolving, specially some electronic and modern rap, but 650 makes everything sound great. I’m running a zen sig stack (has been a really nice upgrade for the 650), would be nice to get a review, i got a pair of ipower x power supplies with it which are supposed to be pretty nice to get clean power.
Love your reviews and the information you give :D
Given that Benchmark once recommended the HD-650 to be used with their DAC1 and even used to sell both in a bundle due to the great neutrality, I think we're both still very fine with it, depsite that true audiophiles never find piece and never rest, always hunting a mirage of audio perfection while entirely forgetting how bad human hearing unfortunately actually is compared to measurement instruments.
One recommendation if that is up your alley musically as well: get the score of "Memoirs of a geisha" on CD and listen to it through the HD-650 and be astonished how "resolving" it can get without having spent a fortune.
Great show folks.
Nice one lads, always interesting
In pure parts cost I feel electronics give you good value for money until $3000 or so. After that you pay mostly for good design and R&D rather than the parts cost. With headphones & speakers you hit the diminishing returns much faster in pure parts cost. But I feel the audio market is one of the best examples of free market competition driving innovation in product design for the benefit of consumers. Speakers in the $300-$2000 range sound much better now than they did 15 years ago, because competition forced everyone to raise the bar. They probably don't cost any more to make for the manufacturers, but the designs themselves are much more efficient in how the money spent translates into perceived audio quality. New speakers aren't nearly as boomy as they were in the mid to late 2000s. The worst value for money is in cables, but even there you get clearly audible improvements going from $50 to $100 and to $400. Cables are the hardest for a consumer to judge the quality of the design just by looking at what the manufacturer says in their marketing. It's also impossible to tell what if anything has improved in cable design over the past 20 years, which is very different from electronics and speakers.
Regarding headphones, according to most of these reviewers here the Susvara hasn't been equaled yet for detail and resolution for the price point, despite about 5 years of R&D by other companies. That is surprising. The Bravura does, according to Golden Sound, but you have to buy into the system to run it, so few are going to consider that actual advancement. I haven't seen enough reviews of the ZMF Caldera yet, maybe it will be the one to equal or surpass the Susvara, and hopefully not require a nuclear reactor to get it to perform. But even the flagships in the $4000-6000 other than the Meze Elites seem to need a system built around them to perform, and reviews for the new flagships from Dan Clark and Focal have been lukewarm to say the least. So, the wait continues.
@@chungang7037 Agreed, need more reviews for the ZMF Caldera. The latest round of TOTLs have kinda fallen flat, Elites, LCD-5s, Utopia 2022, Stealth/ Expanse, Yamaha 5000. Stax X9000 has been received well, but is not easily accessible for all given the electrostat niche. Next contender, Modhouse Tungsten?
The sum of all "it's your preference" boils down to the law of supply and demand. As we increase in quality, fonctionality and being at the forefront of technology (innovators and early adopters of the innovation adoption curve), there is less and less demand, like rarified air at altitude. Therefore, these features are not produced in mass and costing is increasingly inefficient. The law of diminishing returns is a consequence of these more fondamental laws. I would rather just acknowledge the diminishing returns not as a law but a perspective from a value standpoint.
Overtime within this hobby I've defined it for me by what my listening preferences are. I listen to a lot of underground meta which isn't produced super great all the time. Also that lends itself to certain headphones and certain types of amps.
Great discussion, similarly I find the Cayin RU7 to provide amazing sound that despite having an expensive desktop setup, i tend to use the RU7! BTW when can we expect a review on it? ;)
Interesting that you say IEMs are moving really fast lately in terms of tech due to being closer to their ceiling. It would make sense from an audio engineering perspective - people are still pursuing retro Hifi for analogue/vinyl and actually getting a better overall sound in the room - I've witnessed this firsthand. ChiFi has definitely accelerated the process and lowered the barrier to entry).
Does this imply that TWS Bluetooth IEMs will reach that peak ceiling even faster? We've made tremendous strides in the last 2 years of TWS to the point that I can actually rate some of them a 7/10 and being satisfied with my Noble FoKus Pro/Mystique over the right codec. I've yet to see a TWS even cross the four figure range.
I reckon when they actually crack lossless transmission over BT (and it's not fake lossless, like MQA, or fake high-res like LDAC) then things will get very interesting.
If you're a bit bored with your current sound signature and want something different the cheapest solution is use EQ.
If your music is too quiet the easiest solution is increasing the volume.
There’s no need to go broke enjoying good / great sound ..after DECADES AND DECADES in this hobby ..in the end it comes down yo music ..and in this case..IEM’s and a nice amp/DAC or a smart phone with a music service or two.
That’s IEM’s…you can have a varied stable and a decent source chain ..for the cost of what this august round table would consider “entry or mid tier” headphones.
Stay well ..and if you’re in NY for the Can Jam ..have fun.
And to my Australian brothers 🍻
Expensive gear is for people who thinks spending the other side of 20K or 30K brings quality. 20% can produce 80% of the 30K hype. The top 6 mega expensive headphones did nothing for me at CanJam
You're lucky then. For other people, such as myself, I get significant enjoyment from my system. It's the same with any hobby.
@@Currawong Well you review gear. I wish i had components from your rack. But Performance is getting cheaper which enables folks on a bugjet to upgrade
I think the Gustard R26 DAC is WAY better than any cheaper DAC I've heard. For me it defies the diminishing returns trend for DACs
I got one recently. What a jump from the Modius! I’m in love. Of course I guess I am the perfect example of someone that didn’t make the small jumps to really know how much better this is than something in-between but either way I love this product. I’m a huge believer in R2R now and I love the fast filter for blow you away sound that isn’t harsh at all. And then I love Nos for more emotion and analogue like feel. I feel like I have everything. Source really does matter.
I'd like to have a listen, but I don't want to be stuck with it if I don't like it.
Many Chifi IEMs are incredible value at the
All equipment is the same and behind a curtain, you tell the subject that you have a $ 200 amp and a $5000 amp when you have the the same amps (200) behind the curtain. You ask the listener if they can tell, which one is the $5000 amp upon switching. When the listener says (oh, this one, it's so much better). Placebo effect. It would also work with cables, a $100 set, and a 5k set but the cables are the same and the listener picks one over the other. Placebo effect. At least that's how I view the placebo effect. The power of suggestion
This is flat out wrong. Just needed to point that out. You sound like the average ASR commenter which only owns like $200 worth of gear
This is an interesting topic, but a little moot. If you never get to actually hear high end gear, how are you going to know what you are missing (or not)? I know for myself, at some point I am not satisfied just taking another person's word for it, I need to hear it for myself. So how do I do that? The days of being able to audition gear has come and gone as far as I can see. Further, if I actually get to hear, say, a 15,000-dollar DAC, I may love it, but I know I will never be able to afford one, so what's the point? There is so much snake oil and overpriced crap in this industry it boggles the mind. So, you make your peace with that, work within your budget and try your best to make intelligent choices. And of course, everyone's budget will vary. Simple as that. Who cares about diminishing returns? Basic economics will drive what you can and cannot do.
Certainly the type of music you listen to plays a huge part in how far you will go up the chain of efficacy. For instance, I'm blessed with a lack of imagination and narrow interest in music...mostly folk. For this application I do feel resolution is paramount, or the entire frequency response. But I can see someone listening to classical - for instance, would be enticed to go the distance for resolution and dynamics.
Do not feel the need for Uber resolution or the entire frequency range...I meant.
@@timothyfreeseha4056 sounds logical - you are an example of people with no need to go to far (into expensive equipment)
Recently I upgraded from the sundara to focal clear og. The was a significant upgrade in almost all aspects except soundtage, which made me realise how much i value soundstage
Most planars are better than Clear OG
@@dangerzone007 Examples being?
I wouldn't say better - just different - and for some people different means better.
Its not about diminishing returns for most part, would say no audible difference with true a/b test
Is it measurable performance ..or tases that dictate performance 🤔
The Audeze Mobius are fantastic!
I’m writing as the videos playing..
Moondrop Variations and an IFI Go Blue , iPhone with
Amazon Music HD 👍
Nobody NEEDS more than a $100 OpAmp and an HD660, that's 90% of the way there. It's all about chasing the dragon and enjoying the intricacy of refining a setup just for you
If there were a value chain from worst to best, people would stop buying gear eventually, but they don’t. Audiophiles are obsessive and compulsive, they will keep chasing imaginary improvements long past the point where they can be obtained. And yes, a lot of it is in fact related to the placebo effect, whereby if you expect something to be better, it’ll be, and if you expect something to be worse, it’ll be.
Yea but remember there is such a wide range of people in the hobby. A lot of people I’m guessing don’t have the money to keep buying a ton of stuff all the time. But sure, I’m sure there are plenty of people that do stay on the chase for something different.
Were you listening? That is not the Placebo Effect, nor is it related to it. That is a form of confirmation bias. And I'd also be very interested to know where your certainty that those chased improvements are imaginary comes from. Because there's certainly no hard data to back that up.
Y'all looking like 4 horsemen of audiophile apocalypse ngl
Ha ha I see mostly “younger” folks here….another element to diminishing returns is age,..my ears aren’t what they used to be..frequency over 16K forget about it…
Gravity is a 3 way inertia valve. Laws are sheriffs bent broken and always listens.
My 650’s on the Xduoo 604 …😉
Good enough, like the Apple dongle.
When you have a car 20.000 and a dac that is 15.000 where is the money go in the dac world?
In the case of the ones I've used, decades of research and development, plus a significant amount to the dealer and distributor. The costs and effort involved in producing a high-quality custom product are might higher and more difficult than many people imagine.
If you know how to use EQ you can usually get away with much cheaper headphones.
EQ doesn't always fix everything, but it's a quick solution for tuning alone
Have you looked at Oluv's Gadjets?
@@kellustzall3057 you can EQ budget planars to sound incredibly good.
That's too easy and too inexpensive for those kind of audiophiles.
@@kellustzall3057 - I almost always end up with EQ back to zero - and therefore I prefer gear that doesn't have EQ, because I am paying for what I am not using. But of course, this is different for everybody.