I played the p/r Olds Duratone baritone in 77-78 Blue Knights, a King 2-piston silverplated bari in Sky Ryders 79, a DEG dynasty 2-piston bari in Blue Stars 80, and a "chrome" or "nickel") in 82 Freelancers. I now own 10 G-Bugles : Getzen p/r Soprano, Getzen p/r Baby Contra (from the Yooper Shriners), King silver 2-piston Bari (from Sky Ryders), and a FULL SET of Olds p/r: Contra, Ultratone,(from Colorado Springs garagesale) Bari, Duratone (from Blue Knights), French Horn, Ultratone (new-old-stock with papers, never played before me), Mellophone, Ultratone (from Great Falls Golden Sky-Liners) Mellophone, Duratone (needs rotor honed) Fluegel , Duratone (my favorite !) Soprano,Ultratone. You did a really good job describing things. The physical differences between the 70s and the 20s horns are dwarfed by the cultural chasm between the activity in the past Half-Century.
I hope BAC considers selling more of their G bugles. Unfortunate they’re not making 2 valve, the Marine DBC had custom 2 valve bugles from Kanstul. Their contras had an extra thumb trigger to lower the pitch another half step and allowed them to sound an A-flat. Also your Slingerland is likely a stencil horn produced by someone like Conn or Olds. They were sold as package deals with their marching drums.
I marched Sky Ryders ‘86 & ‘87. We had two valve, silver plated, King instruments designed by the great John Simpson. When I was in high school in Kansas, the state was a hotbed of high school drum and bugle corps. I believe there were 8-10 in the mid 70’s. There I marched a single piston, single rotor DEG. LOVED the sound of G bugles. I still remember sitting in front of the Blue Devils in ‘86 and just feeling the power of that horn line!
I played on that 86 Bari line with you. The overtones G bugles produced were amazing. Hard to tune though. We had to lip/blow those horns into pitch and really listen. With those overtones, the sound of a 60-65 member brass line would carry for miles. Never had to mic a solo in those days. The Devils revisited Channel One Suite that year in honor of the 10th anniversary of their first title and wore spats. I remember seeing north tenors for the first time. I also remember Ricky Garcia and Jaime Martinez marching with the Devils brass line that year. Those two had marched Sky Ryders the year prior and as far as I was concerned they were living the dream that summer of 86. I also remember the “brass jedi master” inviting his mentor John Simpson to give us a clinic out in some elementary school parking lot under the oak trees. Brilliant, just brilliant. Simpson walked up to each one of us and sang a ten note part for/to each one of us which we used as warmup the rest of that summer. Chris Knighten dubbed it the “Simpson Chorale”. Blue Devils, Star of Indiana, Sky Ryders,Troopers and maybe one more (I can remember) all played those King Power bores. The soaring scream of a K20 on the field was unequivocally, undeniably indelibly seared into my memory. And, those 20 contra Star of Indiana employed for Close Encounters against Neal on soprano was just over the top.
I was there with you in '87! I played one of the heavy King contrabass bugles. I've got our exhibition performance (audio) from Tulsa and one of our semifinals judges tapes posted on my channel 👋🏼🙏🏻
The first DCI show I ever went to was semifinals 1994. I was there for the last 6 years of G bugles and I still attend live shows to this day. IMO there is no comparison when listening to a live hornline. G's were so much louder it's not even close. A buddy of mine marched 99 BD and listening to them play Star Was ridiculous. No one today even comes close.
G bulges do produce more sound mostly due to the larger bore size of the instrument which allows the player to push a greater volume of air through the horn. Couple this with the primarily outdoor use of the horn in which we were trained how to pump out large volumes of air when playing them. Another difference I noticed in G vs. Bb was that it was easier to play in the upper register on G than on a Bb, and conversely, it was easier to play in the lower register on a Bb than on a G.i played my entire drum corps playing career (1987-2009) on G Bugles (2 valves, then 3) and found the G easier to play on after playing a Bb for the first time in 2010 (the first time I picked up a Bb instrument since 1989).
Yes screaming on the horn was much easier for me as well, although I couldn’t reach my peak range on the G compared to my trumpet however that’s to be expected.
I’ve played a 2 valve soprano at a music store, you’re right about the easier high register. It seems counterintuitive since a G bugle has more tubing than a Bb trumpet, but it makes sense since the bore is so big.
I recently acquired a 3 valve G contra and I do agree it’s easier to play lower on my Bb tuba, I don’t think my G contra sounds as good when playing notes below E1. It is a 4/4 contra so it’s a little smaller than my Bb tuba (The G is still longer though obviously)
I never played a horn. But in my ears the stronger louder Flugel sounding G-bugle pushed a cooler sound to the audience. So maybe that's why corps are micing to get more sound to the audience. You are right it's a business move away from your g-bugle. To be honest I thought when they did make the change, it was because You could play the way music was Ritten better. I loved your post thanks for the information. For my ears the G-bugle was better.
14:17 A lot of this is because the single valved bugle is a “tenor” bugle rather than a Soprano. The “tenor” bugles back then had the same amount of tubing as a soprano but with a bigger bore and bell.
I was born far too late to march any G bugle corps, but I got obsessed with old-school drum corps in high school, and eventually purchased an old 3v Kanstul G mellophone bugle (early-pattern, with the twisted third valve slide!) for use alongside my section of F mellos in my senior year of high school. It’s a bastard instrument, and I say that affectionately. It’s capable of stunning raw power, but its intonation (like many other mellos, F and G alike) can be iffy, particularly on the fifth partial, necessitating alternate fingerings. It sounds phenomenal when blown hard, and can be heard for several city blocks! However, that can make it harder to use indoors because of its unbelievable projection; it’s difficult to record because it’s so loud, even when playing softly. I did manage to record three-part harmonies with it on my song “To My Sisters” (which can be found on my channel!), during the last third or so of the song, but it’s somewhat buried in the mix. Overall, I love the sound of G bugles, but they can be difficult to tame in comparison with modern Bb/F marching brass, which by comparison nearly “play themselves”. But I wouldn’t trade my G mellophone bugle for that - there’s so much character to G bugles that modern Bb/F brass sometimes seems to lack. Not to mention the G soprano bugle having a full minor third of lower range as compared with the Bb trumpet!
@@sceu25 My band director was bemused more than anything, but I was a high school senior and he knew that I had a highly developed musical ear (for a teenager), so I'm pretty sure he trusted me. Plus, he himself was the reason I got into old drum corps -- he had shown our band class a video of 1989 BD, for which he had been in the front ensemble (under Catherine and Tom Float!), and I was blown away by the bizarre brass instruments with only two valves(?!).
@@agogobell28Ah that makes sense. And BD 89 happens to be my favorite ballad as well lol. I see why your band director would be okay with it then since he’d had a whole season with those bugles. I plan on using a 3V G Euph for my senior year. I’m currently a Junior and I’ve got a 2V euph, but I’m pretty sure the 2 Valves is what he’s got a problem with
G Bugles aren’t only louder but you also Felt the sound. The Spirit of Atlanta was practicing in a small high school stadium in ‘79 or ‘80 and shattered the glass in the press box!!! I played a chrome plated Contra with a valve and a rotor with the Reading Buccaneers (DCA) in the early 1980’s. I miss that special sound. You can watch it on TH-cam but watching a Drumcorps show on video and watching it live are like night and day. Oh well what ya gonna do. Keep up the Great work!!! -Nick Giardiello
No matter who it is, every old Drum Corps vet always says the SOA ‘79 and ‘80 were the loudest hornlines they’ve ever heard in their lives. Wish I was around to hear it but my parents weren’t even born lol
I have not played trumpet in decades, but I correctly guessed the two G-Bugles in the blind test, but transposed the Bb Cornet and Bb Trumpet, in my guesses. I guess that is evidence supporting what most of us have always opined: the G-Bugles sound VERY noticeably different than the Bb "band instruments."
Great video!!! I marched with the Sky Ryders in 1987 and played a King K-90 GG Contrabass bugle. Here are some interesting facts about our prototype contras from a drum corps planet post- "And now for a short history of the King K-90 GG Contrabass Bugle. Many of you are unaware of the impact that this fine old instrument had on DCI hornlines back in the heady days of the early 1980's. All of the information is based on memories. So some of it might be off a bit. If anyone here knows more or can make corrections to this tale, then add to the thread, by all means! All of the following was from a thread that I joined one day on my favorite tuba and euphonium BBS. I was searching the archives there today and stumbled across my old words. I thought they might make a nice post for the DCP community. I will post in the DCA section since I am in a Senior Corps (and hoping that we earn DCA membership soon) and because there are few in the world of DCI that would remember how revolutionary these contras were at the time that they first made it onto the field (1981). ******************************* The K-90 started as a set of eight King 2341 tubas purchased from Dennis Fisher (now asst. band dir. at UNT) at Hutchinson High School in Kansas. These tubas were bought by the Sky Ryders in 1980 and sent to the King factory to be made into a prototype GG Contrabass with the then-new-ish two piston configuration. I am unsure whether this R&D project was part of a deal between Rainbow Boosters and the King company, but the Ryders ended up with a full set of new Kings for the other sections as well. The corps first showed up with these new horns in the summer of 1981 and blew everyone away with the sound quality, which was excellent when compared to the Olds and Dynasty "instruments" everywhere else. The problem was that these instruments were prototypes. That means that each one was very different from the other. Pistons were at differing angles, braces were in different places, and the bows were wrapped by hand, leading to differences in height of nearly two inches from horn to horn. But they all played MUCH better than any other contra made at the time, and were the only alternative to the Dynasty hegemony (unless you wanted late-1960s Olds Ultratones and Duratones). I played on several of the Blue Devils contras in 1984. They were from the first production run of the K-90 in 1982, and they were mediocre compared to ours. They were lighter and smaller, and the 9" half-step throw slide (while having a better stop) did not function properly. Don't get me wrong; that first production run produced some very nice horns. But ours were just a bit better. I believe that this was because the tubing used from the old 2341 tubas was thicker than that used in the newer bugles, as was some of the hardware. Ours were just heavier, which can make for a little bit darker tone color. Our eight prototypes were also heavier, had better intonation, and made a much more even sound. Larry Kirschner liked the functionality of our Ab (half step) slides and used to write for it a lot. You can see the things moving in and out in some videos from that period. The introduction of the King K-90 GG Contrabass Bugle marked the first time that a tubist could march in DCI and feel that he or she was playing a musical instrument rather than a "bugle". These eight instruments totally changed the way directors outfitted horn lines, helping to start the trend towards the modern, full-bottomed, warm sound that we all strive for today. These eight bugles helped push the mostly neglected "bottom" into the foreground. Up to that time, sections were mostly 6 players (or fewer) and were relegated to using really lame horns well after two piston horns were legalized (new contras will always cost "too much" for many corps). The incredible potential of outdoor, non-amplified brass sound became much more interesting after the introduction of these wonderful instruments. Corps began to shy away from thin or ratty sounding pea-shooters, realizing that a solid floor really helps a line's sound and impact. After the Sky Ryders introduced the original eight K-90 contras to the corps world, the Blue Devils showed up with them in 1982. I believe that that set of eight instruments were the very first production version K-90's ever sold. From that point forward to today the trend towards better balance and warmer tone started, culminating with Star using 16 K-90's in 1992. (Okay, my memory is a bit foggy here, but I am pretty sure of the number and the year - just not totally sure. PLEASE correct me if you know better!) The K-90 changed the way that horn lines sounded forever. The 1981, 17th place Sky Ryders opened that door on the DCI telecast. (Remember? It was the DCI Midwestern Championships that year, and not DCI itself because of some problem about it being in Montreal. The Ryders did not make finals - BUT - they were the first corps off of the starting line on the telecast from Whitewater.) I personally chose to march with SR because of the sound of the line and their very cool-looking horns that made such a big, round sound. Everyone else just seemed to be blasting on my cheap tv/boom box setup that I wired together just for the show. Those Kings were monsters. And I am very glad to own one. (I just wish that I could have one of the eight prototypes that I marched with so long ago.) If you were a member of the Sky Ryders contra section from 1981 up until they folded, then you too played on a bugle that was important to the history of drum corps." Sorry for the long post, but I thought you might find this information interesting! Keep up the good work! ❤️🙏🏻👋🏼
@he4t0fthesun we have pretty much 5 different Styles of Corps/Bands: Spielmannszug (kinda like Drum and Five) one of the more common Styles Musikzug (like your Classic Marching Band) also pretty common) Gugge (in this Style the Players play thier Instrument on purpose as Bad AS possible) Fanfarenzug (Classic Drum and Bugle Corps with G Bugles) more common in East Germany (Former DDR) Modern Drum and Bugle Corps (like you find in modern DCI) pretty Rare Just a Hand full of Corps All in all we got around 3000 Bands (only like 20%of them are competing) We used to have a Lot more than that but its hard to get People intrestet. We also got our own Competitions: Every West German State (except of the e City Staates) have thier own State Competition every one or 2 Years, east Germany has thier own "Fanfaronade" Every 3 Years, there is also the German Championship, wich you need to Qualify in Order to compete (you have to gain 80+ Points at designatet Event or If you one Last Time) We also compete in DCE (Drum Corps Europa) and at WAMSB
9:08 - “A lot of the veterans… not all of them… but a lot of the veterans weren’t actual musicians…” Ouch! That likely unintentional critique brings back a few rough memories, but I get your point. 😊 Anyway, your comment was a bit of a leap in that the military occupation specialty (MOS) for veterans that used those, let’s all them “legacy bugles” was: MOS-5591 (Field Music Bugler) MOS-5574 (Bugler - Soprano/Mellophone) etc., to name just a few. Many of those musicians (like myself) graduated from the Armed Forces School of Music (Little Creek/Norfolk Virginia), and so by definition they were trained, professional musicians. They would go on to play important roles in the American Legion/VFW circuits that ultimately gave birth to the idea of competitive drum and bugle corps. The idea of playing on those challenging instruments in competition was mostly to hold on to tradition, to maintain the uniqueness of the genre itself, and the unique instrumentation of those marching brass and percussion ensembles. Keep in mind that the military maintained its music programs (from long before Sousa) along with the popular drum & bugle corps. The Commandant’s Own (U.S. Marine Drum & Bugle Corps) is the last of its kind (not sure if the Air Force Academy Drum & Bugle Corps still exists). 🤔 I marched in the USMC (85-89), just before they consolidated the last two (of three) of their drum corps (in Albany, GA and Twenty-nine Palms, CA) down into one, “The Commandant’s Own” in Washington, D.C. I also marched as a teen (late 70s to early 80s) when the drum corps activity was severely marginalized (berated) by the “real musicians” in the marching band (many of which were doing “corps style shows), and the larger world of music education in general. It was pretty brutal being told by many a band director to stay away from those drum corps that didn’t even use “real” instruments. Nonetheless, being a trumpet player before marching in drum corps, those hard to control horns (intonation, etc.) made me a MUCH better trumpet player and performer. 😊
Nice post with good info. I marched 1975 and 1976 with Guardsmen drum and bugle corps. We had valve and rotor. I think in 77 the transition to two valves starting with the sopranos. Phased in due to having to get new bugles. I played trumpet in high school. For Guardsmen 1975 Flugle Bugle, 1976 Soprano. Too many corps are gone now. Thanks you all members of corps past and present for your hard work doing this great activity! 😊🎉❤
Very fortunate to have marched a DCA corps in 2019 that used G bugles, ended up purchasing a 3 valve soprano when they retired them, has an engraving of which original corps used it, but I'd have to dig it out of the closet to find it.
I marched one of those chrome FE Olds Ultratone 2 valve baritones 94 and 95. Went to a silver Dynasty 3 valve horn in 96. The weight difference was huge. The silver horn sounded louder to me when I played it. I always wondered if that olds was louder out the bell than the dynasty.
I think the reason why that 1-valve bugle sounds less bright is because it's a tenor bugle, one of the earliest additions to the hornline alongside the baritone bugle. It's one of the middle-voiced horns (tenor, alto, flügelhorn, french horn, meehaphone, and mellophone). Most of these horns gradually fell out favor until the mello is the only middle voiced horn in the hornline. Its size also kinda gives it away. I'm also in no way an expert about G bugles (I'm a drummer although I wanna learn a brass instrument.). I happened to have went down really deep into this rabbit hole lol.
I marched 96-99, at the end of the G bugle era, playing Dynasty mellophones. You were onto something with the weight of the instrument, contributing to the sound: bugles were louder in large part due to that weight. Pedagogically, we were also encouraged to aim for a more highly-focused sound than is usually desirable in a concert setting, which I don't think translates well on instruments not built specifically for outdoor projection.
I love my Maynard Ferguson Bb trumpet, and having played a 2 valve DEG sop and 3 valve Kanstul powerbore sop...i love the Kanstuls sound and feel, and the DEG was a breeze to play. I think why us old G bugle guys say we were better, is our projection of the sound. We may not have been as musically up front as DCI nowadays, but we could be heard. It's an airflow thing. More air in the g horns. You blow that much air through a trumpet, and it's easy to over play. BUT, on the g's, the tone and sound quality held up.
I didn’t know any of this; I thought a trumpet was a trumpet! But I came across a Kanstul G-Bugle with horizontal valve. It doesn’t play, it’s missing a valve and it’s best to hell with crinkled bell and all. But just dropped off at the UNT instrument repair shop to see what magic they can do (if they want to undertake my challenge). I had no idea that DCI and bugle corps used anything different than standard trumpets. Very educational video, great job n
You could not get fully chromatic scales on a 2-valved horn unless you started from the A natural in the staff. From that point down, you HAD to have a 3rd valve to play Ab, Eb, D, or C#. ABOVE the staff you could play notes normally requiring a 3rd valve....Ab above the staff, for example, was 1st valve and push the 1st valve tuning slide all the way in.
I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the topic is that the individual differences in sound between keyed instruments equates to a significant difference for the change in the group as a whole. But this doesn't pan out when we consider the overlap of voices in a family. Frankly, a lot of brass sounds like a lot of brass in any "key". It seems to me that it's the addition of valves that caused the G to be disused. With the extension of range into the lower register through additional valve combinations (as the key was intended to push the range higher for fewer combinations), the purpose of the lower key center became unnecessary. They could have just skipped the 3 valve G and gone directly to common Bb/F horns. I played 3 valve G horns in my time... but I quite honestly had and have no bias toward or against them. I find them simply unnecessary, given the rules permitting 3 valves. That ruling in the early 90s pretty much sealed the deal for Bb 10 years later. It just took some time for everyone to realize the logic vs. the adherence to tradition. Nice video!
I marched dci in 2000 when the Bb horns were first used. There was a huge difference in sound. We used G horns. The G horns really played well at mf and up. Soft volume on them really drops off tonally. That's the sound old schoolers miss.
The reason for 2 not 3 valves as explained to us by our program coordinator, arranger, and sometimes composer (Robert W. Smith, Suncoast Sound): With two valves you're unable to play a full chromatic scale until you're in the upper register, so the bugles were not 'legitimate' instruments. That meant that arrangements of existing IP did not require payment of royalties to ASCAP, reducing drum corps cost. We played Dynasty 2 valve bugles; I marched 1981-1986, on 2nd baritone for a year and then 1st bari from 82 on. Around 1984, people consistently told me I was the loudest player they ever heard. Going by how the field judges started to recognize and run away from me, that sounds believable enough.
1 G F GD bugle can out project/out volume/out excite, feel to the core/ corps (pun ) to 2 to3 Bb Trumpets and do it musicality for the average ear to accept . What once could be done with 50 Bugles needs at least 75 trumpets to do and still struggle for shear volume penetration of sound . nice presentation CJ
Excellent video. But, the G/F horn, meaning a horizontal valve with rotor was introduced in 68 or 69 not 70 as you said, minor difference I know. Before that there were D rotors on some horns. But when they decided to introduce the 2 vertical valve horn that freed up a huge amount of space for a large main tuning slide. That's something earlier horns didn't have. I would always tell people that the reason lines started sounding better after 77 was a larger tuning capacity. Then after the tune any note was introduced but you still had to have that main slide in it's proper place. I very well could be wrong about the D rotor I was 9 at the time just starting out.
you may have misheard me. I talked about how AL legalized the F piston in, 67 and showed on screen VFW legalizing a year later. 7:03. Ziggy produced the first of those horns at the FE olds company for his velvet knights. i also mentioned the half step rotor before that as well, unless you meant something different. Hope this clears things up.
I marched in a VFW corp back in 1962, 1963 & 1964. Single valve French Horn. I also played a traditional three valve French Horn in our high school band. Without exaggerating, my single valve drum corp French horn was at least twice as loud as my three valve orchestra horn.
Thanks for this description of horns, and all the other info you have online about corps. I don’t see an opportunity to comment on a different drum corps issue so I’ll put it here: I'm wondering if you and others feel as I do that the expansion of the pit has become a bit too much. I think the collection of vibes, xylophones, tympani and other percussion adds a lot, but there are just too many of them now. A show can be enhanced with some of this, used strategically; but it need not be such a major focus of a corps as it is now. Especially when a corps does a standing concert it has become like a vibraphone band with some horns and drums backing them - visually and musically it detracts from the performance. A couple years ago at Tanglewood this is what it seemed like, and it's what it's like whenever I hear a corps playing in concert. I'm going to the Crusaders' Concert in the Park this week, bringing some friends who are novices and I fear they'll miss out on the essence of what a drum corps is - Crusaders will do a standing performance of their show before taking it on the road. In addition to the musical/visual effect, all these extra instruments and people are making the activity more expensive. When we're losing iconic corps (Cadets, Vanguard) because of the difficulty of raising enough money, we need to be thinking about our priorities and how we can efficiently use the dollars we have. When a corps gets reborn after a hiatus (Blue Stars, Madison, Troopers, etc.) they don’t have much of a pit yet, showing it takes extra $$ they don’t yet have. I'm not an old-timey purist, don’t want just horns and battery; but it's a matter of scale, and it seems to have gotten a bit too swollen up front. Do you agree?
Nicely done. Very informative. I miss the G horns and I think they were great for the field venue. But this video gives a lot of valid economic reasons for the change.
I started watching DCI in the 80s. The G-bugle corps were definitely louder than today's, but today the playing is generally more refined and in tune. Still miss that old school wall of sound though.
The G Bugle was the main instrument in the late '60s and early to mid '70s. And that is what I played on. The biggest difference was you had the soprano, the mellophone, the baritone, and the contra. All were pitched in G. Tuning was a simple trick. Now you have the soprano or trumpet pitched in Bb. The mellophone pitched in F. The baritone and the tuba pitched in C. Tuning is now a big problem. In my experience, many corps would not march mellophones and French horns together. They were too hard to play together and in tune. One more thing, Olds made a very good bugle. I'm surprised you didn't mention that brand at all. Just a simple fact, if each instrument is pitched in G, has one horizontal valve and one rotary valve, and all the voices are built by the same company, the tuning takes care of itself. If you have this condition the only other factor you have to deal with is the mouthpiece. This too will affect the tunability of the entire horn line. Your comment on the saleability of the bugle to the general public is a problem. I really have no answer to that. It is a good point. Just one more fact about tunning. Some brass instructors will insist that the membership of a particular corps use the same make of brass mouthpiece. This is just one more variable that has to be dealt with. I marched from 1970 with the Brookhaven Crusaders to the Crossmen in 1975. That year I aged out. Ever since I have had a special place for the corps.
The 1 valve bugle was also called a G/D bugle and the "tuba" is a contrabass. I played a valve/rotar and 2 valve baritone when I started marching in the last years of the G bugle and the first year DCA allowed the Bb horns. I honestly prefer the ease of playing the G bugles, but it was much easier to tune the Bb horns.
Hearing a D below the staff coming from a bugle that sounds like a modern trumpet is just bizarre to me. 😂 Edit with new information: CJ says that the single-valve bugle became standardized in all branches of the United States Military in 1892. This standardization came nearly 80 years after the introduction of piston valves in brass instruments, which an early variety was produced in 1814.
The biggest change is actually the difference between playing G vs Bb. Playing a G bugle is more like a French Horn than a trumpet because you are an octave higher in the harmonic series of the horn than you are with a Bb instrument.
Having played french horn, I don’t know if I would exactly agree with that. I think mellophone or flugelhorn might be a better comparison, but on french horn the small mouthpiece, bore, and long amount of tubing create a feel (for me at least) that’s very seperated from Trumpets, Cornets, and Mellophones.
My point is more about the register. On a standard Bb trumpet the written 3rd space C is two octaves above the lowest fundamental of the instrument. On the old G bugles that same written C was 3 octaves above the fundamental. That higher register is part of the reason G horn lines had such a bright and intense sound.
@@zzhamiltonyou are correct in your assessment about G bugles being similar to French horns, especially the sopranos. Why? Because most soprano lines in the 2V era never played below written G in the staff, and most lead sop parts never went below the C or E in the staff, spending most of their time above the staff.
I listened to some shows from the last year of the g bugles and from the first year of the Bb-F instruments and the quality of sound was vastly improved by using the new instruments. Probably because those are the instruments that they had the most experience playing and were most comfortable with. Although, to be fair, I could just be biased toward the sound of the modern instruments because that is what I am used to hearing.
Marched 91 murauders g bugles were wormer and projected better in my opinion the down side was the intonation had to do some tricks to get the right pitch I heard back in the 70s they cracking press box windows 😮luv the work
Many issues with this video: - You did not discuss the whole step F rotor or step and a half E rotors. - Zig Kanstul worked for Olds, then Benge, then King (before the CKB merger) - Dynasty began selling 3 valve G bugles in 1977 to the international community. - The single piston horn you have is a tenor bugle, so your direct comparisons to the 3V sop will be wrong no matter what. You should get a single piston or piston/rotor soprano in order to properly compare the two eras. - Big instrument manufacturers were partly responsible for the switch to Bb by refusing to make cost comparable G bugles and offering competitive "buy now, pay later" contracts which allowed corps to buy Bb hornlines on credit at a steep discount and sell them for a profit. - You also missed most of the development of the various other voices and completely ignored the creativity and ingenuity of designers in the 1970s and 1980s that created entire orchestral offerings of bugles: piccolo soprano, soprano, alto soprano, flugelhorn, French horn, baritone, euphonium, contrabass, plus boutique voices such as the cellophone, Meehaphone, low alto (1990s), and the last major bugle design created in the mid 90s, the 4 valve contrabass, which is the lowest pitched mass produced "tuba" voice ever built, with a chromatic range to A0 (pedal is G0).
Bb Bugles do exist, they are kind of a cross between a cornet and a trumpet, with a large bell. They aren’t really popular and aren’t mass produced. You have to consider what’s currently being produced in the overall market. Prices for Bb horns are going to be cheaper than not commonly produced instruments, so they are a much better option financially.
Unmentioned were the very odd instruments from the 80's, such as the trombonium. It would be great to see that covered in a future video. Also, wonder what your thoughts would be on that this evolution of instruments mirrors the evolution of musical expression in drum corps itself, from bugle calls to marches, to music for performance to music in service to a performative art. I believe this evolution may in some ways mirror the evolution of western music, if you substitute church (religion) for country (patriotism). Some of this is hinted at in this: Ritualized Performance and Community Identity: A Historical Examination of Drum Corps Competition in the United States by Denise Odello
The bugle was used in military to be heard over the din of battle. The sonic projection was paramount . It wasnt actually meant to be musically relevant. It had a unique style/ genre of its very own when adapted and utilized for entertainment / activity/ spectacle purpose. To me, it was pure, nothing like it by band/ stage/ concert/ even field9 marching band ) concept. Thats why it was once called drum and BUGLE corps . We didnt want to be called a band or related . We were unique, one of a kind . It wasnt exclusive for some fortunate. It was for millions of youth and even adults that felt young to even live it later .Well time to go to the shed and practice on my Bb or Bb cornet rather than my Olds Ultra tone GF French Horn bugle . Wife thinks its too loud .
I'd heard about but had never seen the bugles with the tune-every-note slide, so that was cool to see. BD first used them in 1984, and Gail Royer tried to get BD disqualified the night before finals for using them. Wayne Downey and the 80s staff talks about it in BD's "Through the Years, the 80s" dvd. Always fun to hear Wayne lol. Love your videos, CJ.
I played those horns in BD and Sky Ryders. The only note I recall it adding was an A flat above the staff. I played lower lead soprano and rarely used the slide except during some chromatic runs in that crazy tornado sequence in 86 Ryders. I think many arrangers may have written around the A flat.
So something like a sousaphone is a cylindrical horn so obviously that would not be considered a bugle. But both the modern day Bb Contra and Bb Tuba are largely Conical. While you wouldn’t call them “bugles” per se they are generally much closer to the bugle family than something like the Trumpet. That same distinction could be made about the G contra.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet G contras were mostly built out of Bb tuba parts, except the "baby" Getzen 3/4 contra, which was built from Bb euphonium parts. The Olds and DEG 4/4 contras were made from 4/4 BBb student tuba parts. The 5/4 contras from King and later Kanstul were designed from the King 1140/1141 BBb tuba, while the 5/4 DEG contras are based on the Willson 3100FA BBb tuba.
Can't spell Dynasty without nasty. Never liked the DEG horns. I played a Kanstul 5/4 contra (200G in their catalog) my last three years, and it was a beautiful horn to play. Key of G or not.
I played King 2 valve soprano bugles for 5 years and loved them. I tried DEG and it felt like the hurt was full of cotton. I could play very loud (MFL) and not spread my tone like I would on a trumpet.
When I started in Corps in 91, I was given a 3 valve Dynasty G Soprano made of chrome. It was like playing on a bathroom faucet. The 3 valves had just been released. My last year in 96, I was playing on a 3 valve G Soprano made by Kanstul. Much better!! I DO not like the way Corps has gone now paying whatever instrument they choose. The key of G was so bright. B flat just doesn't sound the same on the field.
I actually mixed up the 3-valve and trumpet lol One thing I've always wondered about the G era: was there any difference between sopranos and mellophones besides the tone quality? Obviously, modern modern F mellos sit between the baritone and trumpet for that "horn-esque" alto voice, but did the G mello fill an equivalent role despite being in the same key? And if so, were the players just forced to use the 3rd valve (once it was added) a lot to play lower notes? Did the instrument manufacturers compensate for this? How did pre-3-valve mellos handle this?
I wish I had the exact answers for you. From the limited amount of information I’ve read, it seems like the mellophone was in the same range as the trumpet but had that much much warmer tone. Flugelhorns also were used the fill a similar role. Kanstul company has a fantastic video on the invention of the mellophone which I highly recommend.
The mellophone bugle parts in 80s drum corps were often written in a higher range than what we’d see today with F mellos. This continued into the 90s after the introduction of the third valve, although I’d say that throughout that decade, G mello parts started to approach F mello parts in terms of range, mostly because they *could*.
G mellos were often used as their own independent melody voice. The mellophone was used in small numbers in the 2V era and the majority of the alto voice was filled with French horn bugles which played a bridge range between the lead baritones and low sopranos. The fact that a G French horn had almost as much tubing as an F French horn meant you didn't need a 3rd valve to play most of the standard range of the horn (much like an F horn). The G French horn became the first G voice to be retired in the 3v era because the mellophone was now capable of playing this whole mid voice. The Mello, in modern G bugle ensembles (I played in G bugle corps from 2009-2019), is written both as a standard background mid voice, as well as a melody or counter melody voice, especially if sopranos are doing something else like fanfares or screaming high notes.
I never have played a G bugle. I have played a Schilke G trumpet and it was the easiest blowing trumpet I ever played, but it is an entirely different animal.
It seems doubtful there would be much success in hiding a valve or trigger from the American Legion in those days, or the days of Tony S. However it would make sense that even as much as having a "nice" look to it, it was in attempt to keep it looking like a bugle. Even up into the 70's the judging sheets call them "bugles" not "brass." BTW it's not just accidentals being able to played with "slide slipping" technique. Many bugle lines were doing full glissandos in those days.
I may have been incorrect. from the very limited amount of info that i could find it seems like the early 3 valves the one I had included were chrome plated, and later switched to a silver/nickel plating. Again though that may have been incorrect.
Friend who played with the Phantom Regiment and Blue Devils has several G Bugles and they are an absolute hoot coming from a trumpet…. His Kanstuls are Silver Plated, but the Dynasty he has was in fact Chrome Plated…
It's easier to lip trill on the G because you are higher in the overtone series. The pedal tone should also be fairly easy on the big single piston G. Projection is easier on the G Bugle due to the larger bell and flare. If it's a Power bore Kanstul then it's a huge .470" bore. And no, the Cornet and G bugle didn't really sound that similar. The last Dynasty Bugles were total crap and not even built in the US. I was there and have taught marching band since. The G Bugles were louder, darker, and projected better. Built specifically for that exact purpose. Modern brass isn't built for the sole purpose of playing outdoors. They're just modified versions of indoor concert brass. Wanna hear what the G's sounded like but with modern Bb horns? Easy. Put a G soprano bell on a .470" bore trumpet. That'll get you really close.
Agreed on most points. I think for the modern brass I would point out that modern marching horns are designed for outdoor use in many factors, but are designed for the common marching band and are meant to blend with woodwind instruments as well as other brass, rather than just brass.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet the trumpets still do t have remotely close to the bell flare of the Soprano. Keeping most of the flare right at the very end. While the Soprano is much more "cornet" like. It's also braced more heavily, improving efficiency, and the longer instrument allows for more overtones, giving the timbre more "character".
Dynasty bugles were always lower build quality, unless you bought a boutique model or a Willson built low voice. Until the early 90s, DEG sops down to baritones were built by Allied Music in Wisconsin, and built by the apprentices working for Allied and Getzen. Some altos, early euphs, and all contras until the end were built by Willson in Switzerland. In the 90s, due to a falling out between the Getzen family, Dynasty moved production of sopranos, mellos, and baritones to Weril in Brazil. These were built until 2012. The Weril horns had some issues as well, but generally the horns became more consistent. I've played good and bad horns from Weril and Allied. Willson? They all play great.
After the inception of DCI, it went from Drum and Bugle Corps to Drum and Orchestra/Concert Band Corps. Some like the change, of course, but the loss of hundreds of Corps across the country, leaving out thousands of participants, all for money, is never going to be justified. In the 1970s, when DCI came into being, there were well over 750 Drum and Bugle Corps across the country. Today, there are how many? Fifty, if you include all-age Corps? Putting a show on the field can cost more than one million dollars per year, in this day and age, when spectacular shows were produced by many Corps which had local members and you paid less than $20 per month to be a member. 1968 Chicago Royal Airs and Cavaliers, 1972 Kingsmen, 1973 SCV and 1980 27th Lancers come to mind, as being filled with "local to the home city" members. All for money but at the cost of how many talented participants. History will tell the final story, of course.
Chrome is Nickel. Horns these days are silver plated. Conicity? You mean bore taper. Cornets start with smaller bores at the throat of the lead pipe receiver than a soprano bugle which starts the size of a trumpet. Usually somewhere between .460" and .470". Trumpets are no longer truly cylindrical as they were originally. But the taper is much smaller between the receiver and bell crook.
Chrome is not nickel, in fact there are many horns nowadays produced with nickel plate rather than silver, however nickel plating necessitates a lacquer and these horns are certainly not lacquered. Conicity references a “conical” bore so yes bore taper. You are correct in that trumpets aren’t truly cylindrical any longer. Although just as we saw the couturier trumpet Id be interested in seeing how a true cylindrical trumpet would play.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet it would be ridiculously bright if built from what's commonly used today. If made from lead, it would sound very much like a pure sine wave. If made from something much harder like beryllium (popularized by Bill Chase's Schilke) it would still be bright but it would actually have some character imparted from the sympathetic vibration in the bell material. Nickel Chrome is a common term for mirror polished nickel. It is more durable than pure chrome plating. Chrome is a veneer plate. Both are extremely hard but chrome is apt to delaminate if it gets damaged. I've been cut by delaminating chrome on an old DEG Mellophone. I haven't heard of any modern brass instruments using nickel or chrome plating as the outer layer. It's usually fairly thick and unless accounted for (or very meticulous masking) requires additional machining on any threaded or tight clearance mating surfaces. It changes the acoustic properties of anything it's applied to. A brass bell is going to sound very different than a chrome plated bell of the same spec. I don't claim to know what all the manufacturers are plating with now. But raw brass, silver plate, gold plate, and lacquer are the most common. I play almost exclusively on Harrelson Trumpets now and his only optional coating has been acoustic armor and he's done lacquer in the past. Acoustic armor seemed to be a kind of ceramic/powder coating that didn't alter the inherent acoustic characteristics of the bell it was applied to.
Ah I see what you mean now. That may very well have been the case then. As for manufactures nowadays, Nickel plating is used on a lot of cheaper brass instruments to give it the silver look that’s more sought after. The problem is that nickel flakes pretty badly just as you mentioned, so the practice with those types of instruments is to give it a lacquer just as you would a gold/raw brass horn. A lot of repair techs that I’ve spoken with hate the nickel horns because the plating flakes off with dent repair
@@92vanguard All of the Chinese instrument manufacturers use nickel plate because of the cost of silver as a precious metal. BAC, Schiller, Wessex, King "Performance" (formerly System Blue), and all of the other horns from the JinBao factory come in lacquered brass or nickel finish. Nickel is only coming back as a cost necessity, not because of a tone color choice or because of a durability choice.
I played the p/r Olds Duratone baritone in 77-78 Blue Knights, a King 2-piston silverplated bari in Sky Ryders 79, a DEG dynasty 2-piston bari in Blue Stars 80, and a "chrome" or "nickel") in 82 Freelancers.
I now own 10 G-Bugles :
Getzen p/r Soprano,
Getzen p/r Baby Contra (from the Yooper Shriners),
King silver 2-piston Bari (from Sky Ryders),
and a FULL SET of Olds p/r:
Contra, Ultratone,(from Colorado Springs garagesale)
Bari, Duratone (from Blue Knights),
French Horn, Ultratone (new-old-stock with papers, never played before me),
Mellophone, Ultratone (from Great Falls Golden Sky-Liners)
Mellophone, Duratone (needs rotor honed)
Fluegel , Duratone (my favorite !)
Soprano,Ultratone.
You did a really good job describing things.
The physical differences between the 70s and the 20s horns are dwarfed by the cultural chasm between the activity in the past Half-Century.
As a member of '80 PR. if someone brought a 3 valve trumpet to practice, the entire hornline would HISSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
I hope BAC considers selling more of their G bugles. Unfortunate they’re not making 2 valve, the Marine DBC had custom 2 valve bugles from Kanstul. Their contras had an extra thumb trigger to lower the pitch another half step and allowed them to sound an A-flat. Also your Slingerland is likely a stencil horn produced by someone like Conn or Olds. They were sold as package deals with their marching drums.
I marched Sky Ryders ‘86 & ‘87. We had two valve, silver plated, King instruments designed by the great John Simpson. When I was in high school in Kansas, the state was a hotbed of high school drum and bugle corps. I believe there were 8-10 in the mid 70’s. There I marched a single piston, single rotor DEG. LOVED the sound of G bugles. I still remember sitting in front of the Blue Devils in ‘86 and just feeling the power of that horn line!
I played on that 86 Bari line with you. The overtones G bugles produced were amazing. Hard to tune though. We had to lip/blow those horns into pitch and really listen. With those overtones, the sound of a 60-65 member brass line would carry for miles. Never had to mic a solo in those days. The Devils revisited Channel One Suite that year in honor of the 10th anniversary of their first title and wore spats. I remember seeing north tenors for the first time. I also remember Ricky Garcia and Jaime Martinez marching with the Devils brass line that year. Those two had marched Sky Ryders the year prior and as far as I was concerned they were living the dream that summer of 86. I also remember the “brass jedi master” inviting his mentor John Simpson to give us a clinic out in some elementary school parking lot under the oak trees. Brilliant, just brilliant. Simpson walked up to each one of us and sang a ten note part for/to each one of us which we used as warmup the rest of that summer. Chris Knighten dubbed it the “Simpson Chorale”. Blue Devils, Star of Indiana, Sky Ryders,Troopers and maybe one more (I can remember) all played those King Power bores. The soaring scream of a K20 on the field was unequivocally, undeniably indelibly seared into my memory. And, those 20 contra Star of Indiana employed for Close Encounters against Neal on soprano was just over the top.
I was there with you in '87! I played one of the heavy King contrabass bugles. I've got our exhibition performance (audio) from Tulsa and one of our semifinals judges tapes posted on my channel 👋🏼🙏🏻
The first DCI show I ever went to was semifinals 1994. I was there for the last 6 years of G bugles and I still attend live shows to this day. IMO there is no comparison when listening to a live hornline. G's were so much louder it's not even close. A buddy of mine marched 99 BD and listening to them play Star Was ridiculous. No one today even comes close.
G bulges do produce more sound mostly due to the larger bore size of the instrument which allows the player to push a greater volume of air through the horn. Couple this with the primarily outdoor use of the horn in which we were trained how to pump out large volumes of air when playing them. Another difference I noticed in G vs. Bb was that it was easier to play in the upper register on G than on a Bb, and conversely, it was easier to play in the lower register on a Bb than on a G.i played my entire drum corps playing career (1987-2009) on G Bugles (2 valves, then 3) and found the G easier to play on after playing a Bb for the first time in 2010 (the first time I picked up a Bb instrument since 1989).
Yes screaming on the horn was much easier for me as well, although I couldn’t reach my peak range on the G compared to my trumpet however that’s to be expected.
G bugle= a rifle. Sounds travels. Bb horn= A Shotgun. Sound disperses..at least that's what I here.
wow, you're a lifer! Wonderful to hear
I’ve played a 2 valve soprano at a music store, you’re right about the easier high register. It seems counterintuitive since a G bugle has more tubing than a Bb trumpet, but it makes sense since the bore is so big.
I recently acquired a 3 valve G contra and I do agree it’s easier to play lower on my Bb tuba, I don’t think my G contra sounds as good when playing notes below E1. It is a 4/4 contra so it’s a little smaller than my Bb tuba (The G is still longer though obviously)
I never played a horn. But in my ears the stronger louder Flugel sounding G-bugle pushed a cooler sound to the audience. So maybe that's why corps are micing to get more sound to the audience. You are right it's a business move away from your g-bugle. To be honest I thought when they did make the change, it was because You could play the way music was Ritten better. I loved your post thanks for the information. For my ears the G-bugle was better.
14:17 A lot of this is because the single valved bugle is a “tenor” bugle rather than a Soprano. The “tenor” bugles back then had the same amount of tubing as a soprano but with a bigger bore and bell.
I was born far too late to march any G bugle corps, but I got obsessed with old-school drum corps in high school, and eventually purchased an old 3v Kanstul G mellophone bugle (early-pattern, with the twisted third valve slide!) for use alongside my section of F mellos in my senior year of high school. It’s a bastard instrument, and I say that affectionately. It’s capable of stunning raw power, but its intonation (like many other mellos, F and G alike) can be iffy, particularly on the fifth partial, necessitating alternate fingerings. It sounds phenomenal when blown hard, and can be heard for several city blocks! However, that can make it harder to use indoors because of its unbelievable projection; it’s difficult to record because it’s so loud, even when playing softly. I did manage to record three-part harmonies with it on my song “To My Sisters” (which can be found on my channel!), during the last third or so of the song, but it’s somewhat buried in the mix. Overall, I love the sound of G bugles, but they can be difficult to tame in comparison with modern Bb/F marching brass, which by comparison nearly “play themselves”. But I wouldn’t trade my G mellophone bugle for that - there’s so much character to G bugles that modern Bb/F brass sometimes seems to lack. Not to mention the G soprano bugle having a full minor third of lower range as compared with the Bb trumpet!
I marched G bugles from 2009 to 2019 in 3 different All Age corps and one standstill performance group.
Practice playing soft. Long tones and scales. It's a wonderfully fun instrument.
Playing a G mello in your HS band? Lol. I tried playing my friend’s K-20 for pep band and my band director nearly crucified me
@@sceu25 My band director was bemused more than anything, but I was a high school senior and he knew that I had a highly developed musical ear (for a teenager), so I'm pretty sure he trusted me. Plus, he himself was the reason I got into old drum corps -- he had shown our band class a video of 1989 BD, for which he had been in the front ensemble (under Catherine and Tom Float!), and I was blown away by the bizarre brass instruments with only two valves(?!).
@@agogobell28Ah that makes sense. And BD 89 happens to be my favorite ballad as well lol. I see why your band director would be okay with it then since he’d had a whole season with those bugles. I plan on using a 3V G Euph for my senior year. I’m currently a Junior and I’ve got a 2V euph, but I’m pretty sure the 2 Valves is what he’s got a problem with
G Bugles aren’t only louder but you also Felt the sound. The Spirit of Atlanta was practicing in a small high school stadium in ‘79 or ‘80 and shattered the glass in the press box!!! I played a chrome plated Contra with a valve and a rotor with the Reading Buccaneers (DCA) in the early 1980’s. I miss that special sound. You can watch it on TH-cam but watching a Drumcorps show on video and watching it live are like night and day. Oh well what ya gonna do. Keep up the Great work!!!
-Nick Giardiello
Man I would love to feel a G hornline, I’ve read another comment before that said they had made car alarms go off way in the distance
No matter who it is, every old Drum Corps vet always says the SOA ‘79 and ‘80 were the loudest hornlines they’ve ever heard in their lives. Wish I was around to hear it but my parents weren’t even born lol
Oh.. I saw the late great Maynard Ferguson three times. When we were young we digged his super high notes!
G bugles are cool
G bugles are cool
@@kazoomer221 G bugles are cool
G bugles are cool
G bugles are cool
G bugles are cool
I have not played trumpet in decades, but I correctly guessed the two G-Bugles in the blind test, but transposed the Bb Cornet and Bb Trumpet, in my guesses. I guess that is evidence supporting what most of us have always opined: the G-Bugles sound VERY noticeably different than the Bb "band instruments."
They're beautiful. I was lucky to play one for many years.
Great video!!! I marched with the Sky Ryders in 1987 and played a King K-90 GG Contrabass bugle. Here are some interesting facts about our prototype contras from a drum corps planet post-
"And now for a short history of the King K-90 GG Contrabass Bugle.
Many of you are unaware of the impact that this fine old instrument had on DCI hornlines back in the heady days of the early 1980's. All of the information is based on memories. So some of it might be off a bit. If anyone here knows more or can make corrections to this tale, then add to the thread, by all means!
All of the following was from a thread that I joined one day on my favorite tuba and euphonium BBS. I was searching the archives there today and stumbled across my old words. I thought they might make a nice post for the DCP community. I will post in the DCA section since I am in a Senior Corps (and hoping that we earn DCA membership soon) and because there are few in the world of DCI that would remember how revolutionary these contras were at the time that they first made it onto the field (1981).
*******************************
The K-90 started as a set of eight King 2341 tubas purchased from Dennis Fisher (now asst. band dir. at UNT) at Hutchinson High School in Kansas. These tubas were bought by the Sky Ryders in 1980 and sent to the King factory to be made into a prototype GG Contrabass with the then-new-ish two piston configuration. I am unsure whether this R&D project was part of a deal between Rainbow Boosters and the King company, but the Ryders ended up with a full set of new Kings for the other sections as well.
The corps first showed up with these new horns in the summer of 1981 and blew everyone away with the sound quality, which was excellent when compared to the Olds and Dynasty "instruments" everywhere else.
The problem was that these instruments were prototypes. That means that each one was very different from the other. Pistons were at differing angles, braces were in different places, and the bows were wrapped by hand, leading to differences in height of nearly two inches from horn to horn. But they all played MUCH better than any other contra made at the time, and were the only alternative to the Dynasty hegemony (unless you wanted late-1960s Olds Ultratones and Duratones).
I played on several of the Blue Devils contras in 1984. They were from the first production run of the K-90 in 1982, and they were mediocre compared to ours. They were lighter and smaller, and the 9" half-step throw slide (while having a better stop) did not function properly. Don't get me wrong; that first production run produced some very nice horns. But ours were just a bit better. I believe that this was because the tubing used from the old 2341 tubas was thicker than that used in the newer bugles, as was some of the hardware. Ours were just heavier, which can make for a little bit darker tone color. Our eight prototypes were also heavier, had better intonation, and made a much more even sound. Larry Kirschner liked the functionality of our Ab (half step) slides and used to write for it a lot. You can see the things moving in and out in some videos from that period.
The introduction of the King K-90 GG Contrabass Bugle marked the first time that a tubist could march in DCI and feel that he or she was playing a musical instrument rather than a "bugle". These eight instruments totally changed the way directors outfitted horn lines, helping to start the trend towards the modern, full-bottomed, warm sound that we all strive for today. These eight bugles helped push the mostly neglected "bottom" into the foreground. Up to that time, sections were mostly 6 players (or fewer) and were relegated to using really lame horns well after two piston horns were legalized (new contras will always cost "too much" for many corps). The incredible potential of outdoor, non-amplified brass sound became much more interesting after the introduction of these wonderful instruments. Corps began to shy away from thin or ratty sounding pea-shooters, realizing that a solid floor really helps a line's sound and impact.
After the Sky Ryders introduced the original eight K-90 contras to the corps world, the Blue Devils showed up with them in 1982. I believe that that set of eight instruments were the very first production version K-90's ever sold.
From that point forward to today the trend towards better balance and warmer tone started, culminating with Star using 16 K-90's in 1992. (Okay, my memory is a bit foggy here, but I am pretty sure of the number and the year - just not totally sure. PLEASE correct me if you know better!) The K-90 changed the way that horn lines sounded forever. The 1981, 17th place Sky Ryders opened that door on the DCI telecast. (Remember? It was the DCI Midwestern Championships that year, and not DCI itself because of some problem about it being in Montreal. The Ryders did not make finals - BUT - they were the first corps off of the starting line on the telecast from Whitewater.) I personally chose to march with SR because of the sound of the line and their very cool-looking horns that made such a big, round sound. Everyone else just seemed to be blasting on my cheap tv/boom box setup that I wired together just for the show. Those Kings were monsters. And I am very glad to own one. (I just wish that I could have one of the eight prototypes that I marched with so long ago.)
If you were a member of the Sky Ryders contra section from 1981 up until they folded, then you too played on a bugle that was important to the history of drum corps."
Sorry for the long post, but I thought you might find this information interesting! Keep up the good work! ❤️🙏🏻👋🏼
In Germany, we still got Lots of Corps with G Bugles
@he4t0fthesun we have pretty much 5 different Styles of Corps/Bands:
Spielmannszug (kinda like Drum and Five) one of the more common Styles
Musikzug (like your Classic Marching Band) also pretty common)
Gugge (in this Style the Players play thier Instrument on purpose as Bad AS possible)
Fanfarenzug (Classic Drum and Bugle Corps with G Bugles) more common in East Germany (Former DDR)
Modern Drum and Bugle Corps (like you find in modern DCI) pretty Rare Just a Hand full of Corps
All in all we got around 3000 Bands (only like 20%of them are competing)
We used to have a Lot more than that but its hard to get People intrestet.
We also got our own Competitions:
Every West German State (except of the e City Staates) have thier own State Competition every one or 2 Years, east Germany has thier own "Fanfaronade"
Every 3 Years, there is also the German Championship, wich you need to Qualify in Order to compete (you have to gain 80+ Points at designatet Event or If you one Last Time)
We also compete in DCE (Drum Corps Europa) and at WAMSB
9:08 - “A lot of the veterans… not all of them… but a lot of the veterans weren’t actual musicians…” Ouch! That likely unintentional critique brings back a few rough memories, but I get your point. 😊
Anyway, your comment was a bit of a leap in that the military occupation specialty (MOS) for veterans that used those, let’s all them “legacy bugles” was: MOS-5591 (Field Music Bugler)
MOS-5574 (Bugler - Soprano/Mellophone)
etc., to name just a few.
Many of those musicians (like myself) graduated from the Armed Forces School of Music (Little Creek/Norfolk Virginia), and so by definition they were trained, professional musicians. They would go on to play important roles in the American Legion/VFW circuits that ultimately gave birth to the idea of competitive drum and bugle corps.
The idea of playing on those challenging instruments in competition was mostly to hold on to tradition, to maintain the uniqueness of the genre itself, and the unique instrumentation of those marching brass and percussion ensembles. Keep in mind that the military maintained its music programs (from long before Sousa) along with the popular drum & bugle corps. The Commandant’s Own (U.S. Marine Drum & Bugle Corps) is the last of its kind (not sure if the Air Force Academy Drum & Bugle Corps still exists). 🤔
I marched in the USMC (85-89), just before they consolidated the last two (of three) of their drum corps (in Albany, GA and Twenty-nine Palms, CA) down into one, “The Commandant’s Own” in Washington, D.C.
I also marched as a teen (late 70s to early 80s) when the drum corps activity was severely marginalized (berated) by the “real musicians” in the marching band (many of which were doing “corps style shows), and the larger world of music education in general. It was pretty brutal being told by many a band director to stay away from those drum corps that didn’t even use “real” instruments. Nonetheless, being a trumpet player before marching in drum corps, those hard to control horns (intonation, etc.) made me a MUCH better trumpet player and performer. 😊
Nice post with good info. I marched 1975 and 1976 with Guardsmen drum and bugle corps. We had valve and rotor. I think in 77 the transition to two valves starting with the sopranos. Phased in due to having to get new bugles. I played trumpet in high school. For Guardsmen 1975 Flugle Bugle, 1976 Soprano. Too many corps are gone now. Thanks you all members of corps past and present for your hard work doing this great activity! 😊🎉❤
I marched Guardsmen in '79, I think that was the first year we had two valve contras; DEG horns IIRC.
I have been wanting this kind of video forever, trying to find bugle information on my own has been tough lol
So have I! And wow from someone who's never had a chance to play on one!
Very fortunate to have marched a DCA corps in 2019 that used G bugles, ended up purchasing a 3 valve soprano when they retired them, has an engraving of which original corps used it, but I'd have to dig it out of the closet to find it.
I marched one of those chrome FE Olds Ultratone 2 valve baritones 94 and 95. Went to a silver Dynasty 3 valve horn in 96. The weight difference was huge. The silver horn sounded louder to me when I played it. I always wondered if that olds was louder out the bell than the dynasty.
I think the reason why that 1-valve bugle sounds less bright is because it's a tenor bugle, one of the earliest additions to the hornline alongside the baritone bugle. It's one of the middle-voiced horns (tenor, alto, flügelhorn, french horn, meehaphone, and mellophone). Most of these horns gradually fell out favor until the mello is the only middle voiced horn in the hornline.
Its size also kinda gives it away.
I'm also in no way an expert about G bugles (I'm a drummer although I wanna learn a brass instrument.). I happened to have went down really deep into this rabbit hole lol.
I agree it’s what they called a tenor and when I was in drum corps it tended to play the third upper part adding a somewhat mid voice or alto sound.
Freelancers alum here ❤️🖤thanks for the shout out and great video!
I marched 96-99, at the end of the G bugle era, playing Dynasty mellophones. You were onto something with the weight of the instrument, contributing to the sound: bugles were louder in large part due to that weight. Pedagogically, we were also encouraged to aim for a more highly-focused sound than is usually desirable in a concert setting, which I don't think translates well on instruments not built specifically for outdoor projection.
I love my Maynard Ferguson Bb trumpet, and having played a 2 valve DEG sop and 3 valve Kanstul powerbore sop...i love the Kanstuls sound and feel, and the DEG was a breeze to play. I think why us old G bugle guys say we were better, is our projection of the sound. We may not have been as musically up front as DCI nowadays, but we could be heard. It's an airflow thing. More air in the g horns. You blow that much air through a trumpet, and it's easy to over play. BUT, on the g's, the tone and sound quality held up.
I didn’t know any of this; I thought a trumpet was a trumpet! But I came across a Kanstul G-Bugle with horizontal valve. It doesn’t play, it’s missing a valve and it’s best to hell with crinkled bell and all. But just dropped off at the UNT instrument repair shop to see what magic they can do (if they want to undertake my challenge). I had no idea that DCI and bugle corps used anything different than standard trumpets. Very educational video, great job n
You could not get fully chromatic scales on a 2-valved horn unless you started from the A natural in the staff. From that point down, you HAD to have a 3rd valve to play Ab, Eb, D, or C#. ABOVE the staff you could play notes normally requiring a 3rd valve....Ab above the staff, for example, was 1st valve and push the 1st valve tuning slide all the way in.
I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the topic is that the individual differences in sound between keyed instruments equates to a significant difference for the change in the group as a whole. But this doesn't pan out when we consider the overlap of voices in a family. Frankly, a lot of brass sounds like a lot of brass in any "key". It seems to me that it's the addition of valves that caused the G to be disused. With the extension of range into the lower register through additional valve combinations (as the key was intended to push the range higher for fewer combinations), the purpose of the lower key center became unnecessary. They could have just skipped the 3 valve G and gone directly to common Bb/F horns.
I played 3 valve G horns in my time... but I quite honestly had and have no bias toward or against them. I find them simply unnecessary, given the rules permitting 3 valves. That ruling in the early 90s pretty much sealed the deal for Bb 10 years later. It just took some time for everyone to realize the logic vs. the adherence to tradition.
Nice video!
I marched dci in 2000 when the Bb horns were first used. There was a huge difference in sound. We used G horns. The G horns really played well at mf and up. Soft volume on them really drops off tonally. That's the sound old schoolers miss.
The reason for 2 not 3 valves as explained to us by our program coordinator, arranger, and sometimes composer (Robert W. Smith, Suncoast Sound): With two valves you're unable to play a full chromatic scale until you're in the upper register, so the bugles were not 'legitimate' instruments. That meant that arrangements of existing IP did not require payment of royalties to ASCAP, reducing drum corps cost. We played Dynasty 2 valve bugles; I marched 1981-1986, on 2nd baritone for a year and then 1st bari from 82 on. Around 1984, people consistently told me I was the loudest player they ever heard. Going by how the field judges started to recognize and run away from me, that sounds believable enough.
1 G F GD bugle can out project/out volume/out excite, feel to the core/ corps (pun ) to 2 to3 Bb Trumpets and do it musicality for the average ear to accept . What once could be done with 50 Bugles needs at least 75 trumpets to do and still struggle for shear volume penetration of sound . nice presentation CJ
Excellent video. But, the G/F horn, meaning a horizontal valve with rotor was introduced in 68 or 69 not 70 as you said, minor difference I know. Before that there were D rotors on some horns. But when they decided to introduce the 2 vertical valve horn that freed up a huge amount of space for a large main tuning slide. That's something earlier horns didn't have. I would always tell people that the reason lines started sounding better after 77 was a larger tuning capacity. Then after the tune any note was introduced but you still had to have that main slide in it's proper place. I very well could be wrong about the D rotor I was 9 at the time just starting out.
you may have misheard me. I talked about how AL legalized the F piston in, 67 and showed on screen VFW legalizing a year later. 7:03. Ziggy produced the first of those horns at the FE olds company for his velvet knights. i also mentioned the half step rotor before that as well, unless you meant something different. Hope this clears things up.
I marched in a VFW corp back in 1962, 1963 & 1964. Single valve French Horn. I also played a traditional three valve French Horn in our high school band. Without exaggerating, my single valve drum corp French horn was at least twice as loud as my three valve orchestra horn.
Thanks for this description of horns, and all the other info you have online about corps. I don’t see an opportunity to comment on a different drum corps issue so I’ll put it here: I'm wondering if you and others feel as I do that the expansion of the pit has become a bit too much. I think the collection of vibes, xylophones, tympani and other percussion adds a lot, but there are just too many of them now. A show can be enhanced with some of this, used strategically; but it need not be such a major focus of a corps as it is now. Especially when a corps does a standing concert it has become like a vibraphone band with some horns and drums backing them - visually and musically it detracts from the performance. A couple years ago at Tanglewood this is what it seemed like, and it's what it's like whenever I hear a corps playing in concert. I'm going to the Crusaders' Concert in the Park this week, bringing some friends who are novices and I fear they'll miss out on the essence of what a drum corps is - Crusaders will do a standing performance of their show before taking it on the road. In addition to the musical/visual effect, all these extra instruments and people are making the activity more expensive. When we're losing iconic corps (Cadets, Vanguard) because of the difficulty of raising enough money, we need to be thinking about our priorities and how we can efficiently use the dollars we have. When a corps gets reborn after a hiatus (Blue Stars, Madison, Troopers, etc.) they don’t have much of a pit yet, showing it takes extra $$ they don’t yet have. I'm not an old-timey purist, don’t want just horns and battery; but it's a matter of scale, and it seems to have gotten a bit too swollen up front. Do you agree?
Nicely done. Very informative. I miss the G horns and I think they were great for the field venue. But this video gives a lot of valid economic reasons for the change.
I started watching DCI in the 80s. The G-bugle corps were definitely louder than today's, but today the playing is generally more refined and in tune. Still miss that old school wall of sound though.
Well done, sir! I learned lots
The G Bugle was the main instrument in the late '60s and early to mid '70s. And that is what I played on. The biggest difference was you had the soprano, the mellophone, the baritone, and the contra. All were pitched in G. Tuning was a simple trick. Now you have the soprano or trumpet pitched in Bb. The mellophone pitched in F. The baritone and the tuba pitched in C. Tuning is now a big problem. In my experience, many corps would not march mellophones and French horns together. They were too hard to play together and in tune. One more thing, Olds made a very good bugle. I'm surprised you didn't mention that brand at all. Just a simple fact, if each instrument is pitched in G, has one horizontal valve and one rotary valve, and all the voices are built by the same company, the tuning takes care of itself. If you have this condition the only other factor you have to deal with is the mouthpiece. This too will affect the tunability of the entire horn line. Your comment on the saleability of the bugle to the general public is a problem. I really have no answer to that. It is a good point. Just one more fact about tunning. Some brass instructors will insist that the membership of a particular corps use the same make of brass mouthpiece. This is just one more variable that has to be dealt with. I marched from 1970 with the Brookhaven Crusaders to the Crossmen in 1975. That year I aged out. Ever since I have had a special place for the corps.
Great video and nice sound. Even though it has been a while I could still hear the difference.
The 1 valve bugle was also called a G/D bugle and the "tuba" is a contrabass. I played a valve/rotar and 2 valve baritone when I started marching in the last years of the G bugle and the first year DCA allowed the Bb horns. I honestly prefer the ease of playing the G bugles, but it was much easier to tune the Bb horns.
Hearing a D below the staff coming from a bugle that sounds like a modern trumpet is just bizarre to me. 😂
Edit with new information: CJ says that the single-valve bugle became standardized in all branches of the United States Military in 1892. This standardization came nearly 80 years after the introduction of piston valves in brass instruments, which an early variety was produced in 1814.
The biggest change is actually the difference between playing G vs Bb. Playing a G bugle is more like a French Horn than a trumpet because you are an octave higher in the harmonic series of the horn than you are with a Bb instrument.
Having played french horn, I don’t know if I would exactly agree with that. I think mellophone or flugelhorn might be a better comparison, but on french horn the small mouthpiece, bore, and long amount of tubing create a feel (for me at least) that’s very seperated from Trumpets, Cornets, and Mellophones.
My point is more about the register. On a standard Bb trumpet the written 3rd space C is two octaves above the lowest fundamental of the instrument. On the old G bugles that same written C was 3 octaves above the fundamental. That higher register is part of the reason G horn lines had such a bright and intense sound.
@@zzhamiltonyou are correct in your assessment about G bugles being similar to French horns, especially the sopranos. Why? Because most soprano lines in the 2V era never played below written G in the staff, and most lead sop parts never went below the C or E in the staff, spending most of their time above the staff.
I listened to some shows from the last year of the g bugles and from the first year of the Bb-F instruments and the quality of sound was vastly improved by using the new instruments. Probably because those are the instruments that they had the most experience playing and were most comfortable with. Although, to be fair, I could just be biased toward the sound of the modern instruments because that is what I am used to hearing.
Thank you! I wanna know the Fire between these, I've never heard G bugles
Marched 91 murauders g bugles were wormer and projected better in my opinion the down side was the intonation had to do some tricks to get the right pitch I heard back in the 70s they cracking press box windows 😮luv the work
Very informative !! Thanks. Have some bugles myself, but now i can at least identify them.
Many issues with this video:
- You did not discuss the whole step F rotor or step and a half E rotors.
- Zig Kanstul worked for Olds, then Benge, then King (before the CKB merger)
- Dynasty began selling 3 valve G bugles in 1977 to the international community.
- The single piston horn you have is a tenor bugle, so your direct comparisons to the 3V sop will be wrong no matter what. You should get a single piston or piston/rotor soprano in order to properly compare the two eras.
- Big instrument manufacturers were partly responsible for the switch to Bb by refusing to make cost comparable G bugles and offering competitive "buy now, pay later" contracts which allowed corps to buy Bb hornlines on credit at a steep discount and sell them for a profit.
- You also missed most of the development of the various other voices and completely ignored the creativity and ingenuity of designers in the 1970s and 1980s that created entire orchestral offerings of bugles: piccolo soprano, soprano, alto soprano, flugelhorn, French horn, baritone, euphonium, contrabass, plus boutique voices such as the cellophone, Meehaphone, low alto (1990s), and the last major bugle design created in the mid 90s, the 4 valve contrabass, which is the lowest pitched mass produced "tuba" voice ever built, with a chromatic range to A0 (pedal is G0).
Is there some in-between for the G bugles and trumpets that gives the warmth and volume but also the flexibility? If so, why don't people use that?
Bb Bugles do exist, they are kind of a cross between a cornet and a trumpet, with a large bell. They aren’t really popular and aren’t mass produced. You have to consider what’s currently being produced in the overall market. Prices for Bb horns are going to be cheaper than not commonly produced instruments, so they are a much better option financially.
@@CJsMusicTrumpetAh, its always the money. Well, someday I'm going to make sure I see those on the field, sounds awesome
1992 Madison had F horns. I think It was the first year with 3 valve horns supplied by Yamaha. If I remember correctly.
Glad you made this video like you said you wanted to in your last news video. Looking forward to your next news video in light of cadets news
G sounded like its own thing designed for a specific purpose. Bb/F just sounds like an imitation of that that doesn’t quite work 🤷♂
Unmentioned were the very odd instruments from the 80's, such as the trombonium. It would be great to see that covered in a future video. Also, wonder what your thoughts would be on that this evolution of instruments mirrors the evolution of musical expression in drum corps itself, from bugle calls to marches, to music for performance to music in service to a performative art. I believe this evolution may in some ways mirror the evolution of western music, if you substitute church (religion) for country (patriotism). Some of this is hinted at in this:
Ritualized Performance and Community Identity: A Historical
Examination of Drum Corps Competition in the United States
by Denise Odello
I’ve seen one of those in an old 27 video
I marched 87 and 88 on DEG sopranos. They were alive.
The bugle was used in military to be heard over the din of battle. The sonic projection was paramount . It wasnt actually meant to be musically relevant. It had a unique style/ genre of its very own when adapted and utilized for entertainment / activity/ spectacle purpose. To me, it was pure, nothing like it by band/ stage/ concert/ even field9 marching band ) concept. Thats why it was once called drum and BUGLE corps . We didnt want to be called a band or related . We were unique, one of a kind . It wasnt exclusive for some fortunate. It was for millions of youth and even adults that felt young to even live it later .Well time to go to the shed and practice on my Bb or Bb cornet rather than my Olds Ultra tone GF French Horn bugle . Wife thinks its too loud .
I'd heard about but had never seen the bugles with the tune-every-note slide, so that was cool to see. BD first used them in 1984, and Gail Royer tried to get BD disqualified the night before finals for using them. Wayne Downey and the 80s staff talks about it in BD's "Through the Years, the 80s" dvd. Always fun to hear Wayne lol. Love your videos, CJ.
I played those horns in BD and Sky Ryders. The only note I recall it adding was an A flat above the staff. I played lower lead soprano and rarely used the slide except during some chromatic runs in that crazy tornado sequence in 86 Ryders. I think many arrangers may have written around the A flat.
I read Wayne Downey’s autobiography where he mentioned getting like 24 of the new King TAN sops in ‘79
Why do you consider A 3 valve marching tuba more like a bugle than a true Bb instrument? Just wondering......
So something like a sousaphone is a cylindrical horn so obviously that would not be considered a bugle. But both the modern day Bb Contra and Bb Tuba are largely Conical. While you wouldn’t call them “bugles” per se they are generally much closer to the bugle family than something like the Trumpet. That same distinction could be made about the G contra.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet G contras were mostly built out of Bb tuba parts, except the "baby" Getzen 3/4 contra, which was built from Bb euphonium parts.
The Olds and DEG 4/4 contras were made from 4/4 BBb student tuba parts.
The 5/4 contras from King and later Kanstul were designed from the King 1140/1141 BBb tuba, while the 5/4 DEG contras are based on the Willson 3100FA BBb tuba.
Can't spell Dynasty without nasty. Never liked the DEG horns. I played a Kanstul 5/4 contra (200G in their catalog) my last three years, and it was a beautiful horn to play. Key of G or not.
I want a 5/4 G contra so bad
I played King 2 valve soprano bugles for 5 years and loved them. I tried DEG and it felt like the hurt was full of cotton. I could play very loud (MFL) and not spread my tone like I would on a trumpet.
Hawthorne Caballeros Alumni still play g bugles.
When I started in Corps in 91, I was given a 3 valve Dynasty G Soprano made of chrome. It was like playing on a bathroom faucet. The 3 valves had just been released. My last year in 96, I was playing on a 3 valve G Soprano made by Kanstul. Much better!! I DO not like the way Corps has gone now paying whatever instrument they choose. The key of G was so bright. B flat just doesn't sound the same on the field.
I actually mixed up the 3-valve and trumpet lol
One thing I've always wondered about the G era: was there any difference between sopranos and mellophones besides the tone quality? Obviously, modern modern F mellos sit between the baritone and trumpet for that "horn-esque" alto voice, but did the G mello fill an equivalent role despite being in the same key? And if so, were the players just forced to use the 3rd valve (once it was added) a lot to play lower notes? Did the instrument manufacturers compensate for this? How did pre-3-valve mellos handle this?
I wish I had the exact answers for you. From the limited amount of information I’ve read, it seems like the mellophone was in the same range as the trumpet but had that much much warmer tone. Flugelhorns also were used the fill a similar role. Kanstul company has a fantastic video on the invention of the mellophone which I highly recommend.
The mellophone bugle parts in 80s drum corps were often written in a higher range than what we’d see today with F mellos. This continued into the 90s after the introduction of the third valve, although I’d say that throughout that decade, G mello parts started to approach F mello parts in terms of range, mostly because they *could*.
G mellos were often used as their own independent melody voice. The mellophone was used in small numbers in the 2V era and the majority of the alto voice was filled with French horn bugles which played a bridge range between the lead baritones and low sopranos. The fact that a G French horn had almost as much tubing as an F French horn meant you didn't need a 3rd valve to play most of the standard range of the horn (much like an F horn). The G French horn became the first G voice to be retired in the 3v era because the mellophone was now capable of playing this whole mid voice.
The Mello, in modern G bugle ensembles (I played in G bugle corps from 2009-2019), is written both as a standard background mid voice, as well as a melody or counter melody voice, especially if sopranos are doing something else like fanfares or screaming high notes.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet Your take on mellos is accurate. BTW, that's a bari, euphoniums were available in '78, but rare then.
@@czarkbrooksSmith Music Sales and Whaley Royce made the first Euphs back in the late 50’s/60’s.
I never have played a G bugle. I have played a Schilke G trumpet and it was the easiest blowing trumpet I ever played, but it is an entirely different animal.
Is that background music Cadets 1991 or 1999?
Definitely 1991
It seems doubtful there would be much success in hiding a valve or trigger from the American Legion in those days, or the days of Tony S. However it would make sense that even as much as having a "nice" look to it, it was in attempt to keep it looking like a bugle. Even up into the 70's the judging sheets call them "bugles" not "brass." BTW it's not just accidentals being able to played with "slide slipping" technique. Many bugle lines were doing full glissandos in those days.
I’m like 95% certain that 3V soprano is silver plated.
I may have been incorrect. from the very limited amount of info that i could find it seems like the early 3 valves the one I had included were chrome plated, and later switched to a silver/nickel plating. Again though that may have been incorrect.
Friend who played with the Phantom Regiment and Blue Devils has several G Bugles and they are an absolute hoot coming from a trumpet…. His Kanstuls are Silver Plated, but the Dynasty he has was in fact Chrome Plated…
I ❤ my Kanstul horn 🥳📯
is there any way to get the G sound without the poor intonation?
tune any note was the basic solution for the tuning issues. The Kanstul G Bugles were probably the best G bugles tonally for that reason.
It's easier to lip trill on the G because you are higher in the overtone series. The pedal tone should also be fairly easy on the big single piston G.
Projection is easier on the G Bugle due to the larger bell and flare. If it's a Power bore Kanstul then it's a huge .470" bore.
And no, the Cornet and G bugle didn't really sound that similar.
The last Dynasty Bugles were total crap and not even built in the US.
I was there and have taught marching band since. The G Bugles were louder, darker, and projected better. Built specifically for that exact purpose. Modern brass isn't built for the sole purpose of playing outdoors. They're just modified versions of indoor concert brass.
Wanna hear what the G's sounded like but with modern Bb horns? Easy. Put a G soprano bell on a .470" bore trumpet. That'll get you really close.
Agreed on most points. I think for the modern brass I would point out that modern marching horns are designed for outdoor use in many factors, but are designed for the common marching band and are meant to blend with woodwind instruments as well as other brass, rather than just brass.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet the trumpets still do t have remotely close to the bell flare of the Soprano. Keeping most of the flare right at the very end. While the Soprano is much more "cornet" like. It's also braced more heavily, improving efficiency, and the longer instrument allows for more overtones, giving the timbre more "character".
Dynasty bugles were always lower build quality, unless you bought a boutique model or a Willson built low voice.
Until the early 90s, DEG sops down to baritones were built by Allied Music in Wisconsin, and built by the apprentices working for Allied and Getzen.
Some altos, early euphs, and all contras until the end were built by Willson in Switzerland.
In the 90s, due to a falling out between the Getzen family, Dynasty moved production of sopranos, mellos, and baritones to Weril in Brazil. These were built until 2012. The Weril horns had some issues as well, but generally the horns became more consistent. I've played good and bad horns from Weril and Allied. Willson? They all play great.
Why is that slide soooo far out?
42 minutes ago, newborn ahh video ☠️💝
I got 4/4 correct!
Scooter!
Current DCI intonation is so much better than when I began listening.
After the inception of DCI, it went from Drum and Bugle Corps to Drum and Orchestra/Concert Band Corps.
Some like the change, of course, but the loss of hundreds of Corps across the country, leaving out thousands of participants, all for money, is never going to be justified.
In the 1970s, when DCI came into being, there were well over 750 Drum and Bugle Corps across the country. Today, there are how many? Fifty, if you include all-age Corps?
Putting a show on the field can cost more than one million dollars per year, in this day and age, when spectacular shows were produced by many Corps which had local members and you paid less than $20 per month to be a member. 1968 Chicago Royal Airs and Cavaliers, 1972 Kingsmen, 1973 SCV and 1980 27th Lancers come to mind, as being filled with "local to the home city" members.
All for money but at the cost of how many talented participants.
History will tell the final story, of course.
I need “I Don’t Support DCI” to watch this video
Chrome is Nickel. Horns these days are silver plated.
Conicity? You mean bore taper. Cornets start with smaller bores at the throat of the lead pipe receiver than a soprano bugle which starts the size of a trumpet. Usually somewhere between .460" and .470".
Trumpets are no longer truly cylindrical as they were originally. But the taper is much smaller between the receiver and bell crook.
Chrome is not nickel, in fact there are many horns nowadays produced with nickel plate rather than silver, however nickel plating necessitates a lacquer and these horns are certainly not lacquered. Conicity references a “conical” bore so yes bore taper. You are correct in that trumpets aren’t truly cylindrical any longer. Although just as we saw the couturier trumpet Id be interested in seeing how a true cylindrical trumpet would play.
@@CJsMusicTrumpet it would be ridiculously bright if built from what's commonly used today. If made from lead, it would sound very much like a pure sine wave. If made from something much harder like beryllium (popularized by Bill Chase's Schilke) it would still be bright but it would actually have some character imparted from the sympathetic vibration in the bell material.
Nickel Chrome is a common term for mirror polished nickel. It is more durable than pure chrome plating. Chrome is a veneer plate. Both are extremely hard but chrome is apt to delaminate if it gets damaged. I've been cut by delaminating chrome on an old DEG Mellophone.
I haven't heard of any modern brass instruments using nickel or chrome plating as the outer layer. It's usually fairly thick and unless accounted for (or very meticulous masking) requires additional machining on any threaded or tight clearance mating surfaces. It changes the acoustic properties of anything it's applied to. A brass bell is going to sound very different than a chrome plated bell of the same spec.
I don't claim to know what all the manufacturers are plating with now. But raw brass, silver plate, gold plate, and lacquer are the most common. I play almost exclusively on Harrelson Trumpets now and his only optional coating has been acoustic armor and he's done lacquer in the past.
Acoustic armor seemed to be a kind of ceramic/powder coating that didn't alter the inherent acoustic characteristics of the bell it was applied to.
Ah I see what you mean now. That may very well have been the case then. As for manufactures nowadays, Nickel plating is used on a lot of cheaper brass instruments to give it the silver look that’s more sought after. The problem is that nickel flakes pretty badly just as you mentioned, so the practice with those types of instruments is to give it a lacquer just as you would a gold/raw brass horn. A lot of repair techs that I’ve spoken with hate the nickel horns because the plating flakes off with dent repair
@@92vanguard All of the Chinese instrument manufacturers use nickel plate because of the cost of silver as a precious metal.
BAC, Schiller, Wessex, King "Performance" (formerly System Blue), and all of the other horns from the JinBao factory come in lacquered brass or nickel finish.
Nickel is only coming back as a cost necessity, not because of a tone color choice or because of a durability choice.
@@bt25 although. Nickel is more durable and much harder than silver.