Did Captain Archer Actually Commit Genocide?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 เม.ย. 2018
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Am I the only one who enjoyed Enterprise? It wasn't my favourite but I did like it most of the time.
YourPalAL I loved it
Better than Voyager and much better than Discovery.
Love it!
I can enjoy enterprice now when Im 50 yers old not so much when i was 30 - show made for old or slow or some that get exited with little -now I like it slow so I enjoy the show.
It's far superior to Discovery.
I liked the Orville's Prime directive. They are allowed to visit not when the planet develops warp but when the planet decides to reach out to space faring entities for contact. I love that. It makes more sense.
i think you might be mistaken, union scientists were on a prewarp society to do recon work, its the society that basically runs like reddit
It does from an idealistic standpoint but I'm not sure how interstellar states like the Union or the Federation survive when they're competing against interstellar states that don't have a rule preventing them from colonizing and extracting the resources of pretty much any planet they can reach that hasn't developed the technology to stop them. Is the prime directive something that would actually work in interstellar geopolitics or would it just be handicapping the geopolitical power of any state that adopted it?
Plus the episode with the planet that considered Kelly a god.
The then developed civilization said what I thought so often "We would have made up another god without you"
I agree, in part. My caution is based upon, "who is doing the asking?" Take our own planet as a for instance. Imagine you were the captain of an interstellar ship and managed to hear the signals Earth sent into space, hoping to meet other life. No doubt you would investigate.
Upon arrival you quickly notice the primary species strips the planet for its resources and mostly puts back nothing. The few people who do try to preserve and restore nature are ridiculed and politicized away. Nearly 1/2 of them deny science and reality, mostly in favor of imaginary deities and fears that hold no basis in reality. These same willfully ignorant morons politicizes a pandemic, leading to the unnecessary death of millions of people!
They routinely wage wars, uprisings and generally kill each other due to differences in their made-up religious belief systems, skin color, national origin, ancestry and even kill each other over bodily autonomy. They set imaginary borders to separate each other and keep out "undesirables."
These people act this way to their own species! How do you think they'd feel about you?
Maybe you don't just meet everyone who just says, "hello."
@@shenhurstthe answer to that takes a certain amount of idealism but it does exist - the Federation has the advantage of collaboration between advanced civilizations which can give them a technological development leg up on their imperialist adversaries. Sure the Romulans or Cardassians have access to more resources by exploiting less advanced worlds - but the Federation is better at developing technology letting them operate at post-scarcity levels where they don’t need the same amount of resources (take the development of dilithium recycling between TOS and TNG for example) because they have the scientific collaboration between so many advanced civilizations and their knowledge that the Romulans and Cardassians don’t.
(I left out the Klingons because obviously they change a lot through the franchise’s in-universe history)
It’s a very optimistic answer, but it is an answer.
Startrek made me love the Andoriens.
And Shran is fuuuckiiing awesome! Man I loved every moment he was on screen.
"Soo, why did you help me?"
"I just want a good night of sleep!!!"
"Tell Archer I no longer owe him he owes me now"
"Thats two archer owes me now!"
I initially hated/agreed with the vulcans about the andorians. But by the end the Andorians felt more like honorable allies. They are ruthless to their enemies but will put their lives on their line at the drop of a hat for an ally. In comparison to the vulcans at the time they seemed entirely honest and honorable while the vulcans back-stabbed and tried to commit genocide.
" You are my friend" knowing he will fight Archer
Greg L. Turnquist g
@@WobblesandBean A good businessman sees oppertunity where he can.
Also, Latnium isn't the only valuable resource out there.
Some smart Ferengi probably returned with the cure and built a pharmaceutical empire off the Valaksian's.
Only if they had something valuable to trade.
There’s actually a theory that the Valakian’s had become the Breen if it had been the Romulans that came by to ”help”. It would explain why the Breen have it out for earth, they ignored their calls for help and refused to cure them and now they are off for revenge to destroy those that refused to save them.
@@brandonlyon730 And the Menk became the Pakleds.
The Valakians didn't specify that they encountered the Ferengi after they were afflicted. Unless the Ferengi decided to return, this wouldn't have a chance to occur. If the Ferengi didn't return, it was because they didn't consider the Valakians a suitable market to exploit (which I find hard to believe). Archer was horribly wrong, misguided by Phlox. The Valakians had evolved to the point where they could reach out in spacecraft to help find another intelligence capable of developing a cure for their condition. They succeeded. They encountered the Enterprise a human vessel on a mission of discovery. It's crew devised and enlisted to help in that mission, subordinate to that cause and its Captain's direction. The human principles of reason and compassion are clearly espoused by Archer. The decision he ultimately made was an inhuman one, leaving the Valakians to suffer and die in a spiral of misery and despair. How would future Valakians, if any, respond to humans if they discover a cure had been developed a century earlier but withheld because of an misinterpretation of a scientific principle?
Yes and earth has officially made a enemy, personally I would never forgive
I feel like the only reason why the writers thought the "Archer and Phlox Make a Tough Decision" plot was a good idea is because they also decided that the Valakians were holding back the Menks as a species. If there hadn't been another group of marginalized people living on the same planet, then withholding the medicine would be the act of "playing god."
As you put it in the video, this wasn't an alien species showing up to change the course of evolution on their planet by showering them with technology. This is the Valakians traveling from their world in desperation, searching for someone more advanced who could stop their people from dying out.
If this was Stargate: SG-1, I feel like Jack would have given the Menks the cure and let them sort it out for themselves - which would have opened the door for an entirely different conversation.
This is why Stargate is my favorite of the 3 “Star” franchises.
I quite enjoyed Enterprise.
tyrongkojy Me too. Rare to find people like us...
It had 4 years.
That's four times as much of a chance, as Firefly had.
Cheshire Kat that was FOXs fault. They didnt play the episodes in order.
Enterprise deserved at least 3 more seasons
Trip should have lived
"Never heard of _______. Sounds made up." ~T'Pol's reaction to everything not in the Vulcan scientific database.
With a body like that, she can say anything she likes and we will love it.
"The Science Vulcan Directorate has determined that time travel is... not fair."
Even drugged and tortured, T'pol has the basics of logic.
@@gabrielmichelson9830 Temporal paradoxes are logical contradictions.
"Destiny is not a component of the evolutionary process"
Thank you for that, I have had a problem trying to explain this concept to people but I think these words are lot better then some of mine.
Other than the fact that we're all destined to "evolve" into lizards once we learn to travel at warp 10, right? 😆
Steve could probably do a whole video on all the times the Star Trek writers didn't understand how evolution works.
Darwin sort of did believe that, it's one of the many ideas from origin of species that got thrown out
@@Tim3.14 Both this episode and Threshold were written by Brannon Braga. Brannon Braga was no idea how biology or evolution work and anytime he writes about it this bizarre theme of "evolutionary predestination" keeps coming up. Braga writes evolution not like a reactive process that responds to changing environmental pressures on a population, but as some prescribed force that has some plan in store and us mortals are not supposed to interfere with it. Congratulations Braga, you turned evolution into a god.
@@OsirisLord I rather think it's the viewers that are confounding destiny/determinism with evolution, not the show itself. Granted, there is a lack of articulate language for the writers to use when dealing with the topic, and maybe that is where some of the confusion stems from, but honestly... I don't think anyone is stupid enough to suggest that the literal process of evolution has very much to do with the concept of the Prime Directive. Whether or not the development of a species should be interfered with is a wholly different issue. And if you can't get on board with the idea that maybe it isn't correct for external influences to intervene in what should be a natural process, then maybe you should try refocusing the lens and realize that it isn't right to place the expectation on any passing advanced species to take responsibility - godlike responsibility - over another. They aren't gods, as everyone is so apt to point out, so it can't be justified that they have to fulfill that duty.
@@Tim3.14 The sad thing is....there are times when evolution is depicted correctly in Star Trek. Odo, frustrated by the people's fear of him, is lectured by Quark on how humanoid species would die out if they didn't evolve the ability to learn and fear.
Enterprise was actually one of my favorites. The crew characters, the premise, the actors. Loved it all. Yes, it had it's issues, but nothing is perfect.
the one thing you forget to point out is that the Valakians still have 200 years to extinction and that following the encounter both Earth and Vulcan would have knowledge of their situation and the cure. So Archer is just one of many who decided to let the species die out.
They're not letting them die out - they have 200 years to figure out a solution for themselves.
@@Divya736 Yes! In 200 years of time they may find a cure themselves or convince another species to help them...
Or perhaps within 200 years the Valakians perfect the medicine they've been given, nullifying the effects of the disease until they invent warp technology of their own so Starfleet officially makes first contact.
Oh well they aren’t letting them die out, just leaving them to potentially die out entirely and in the meantime guaranteeing the deaths of what...several million people over the next 200 years? Break out the Nobel peace prizes!
Seriously guys...there is no nobility to be found in having a cure and withholding it for no reason.
@@nothri The point the show makes and it seems you guys are ignoring, is that the Valakians were the dominant species and were halting the advancement of another race that coexisted with them.
Cure the Valakians and potentially leaving the other dudes to be somewhat like a slave race or
Not cure the Valakians, they still have 200y to deal with it and give a chance to the other race to thrive.
Its a hard moral dilemma and im glad there are shows out there to present them, even if at the end they need to pick one to wrap up the episode. :)
Whos to say that after 195 years we wouldnt go back and check? If they have warp tec great, you can move the other race to some other planet if needed and still cure the valakians.
Ultimately its just a show. But if it were reality and those were the terms, even if we held the cure from them, there are a ton of options on what to do to help them. Its not a clear white or black answer you guys seem to wanna give.
What if instead of coexisting, one race was really dictator like and really treated those from the other race poorly? I think this is what the show wants to show. The Valakians are just subtle about it. Not letting the Menks live in fertile land is discrimination. Would it still be ethical to cure them? I don't know, but its a great episode to exercise your mind.
I love Enterprise. It was far from perfect but it had some moments. When it was firing on all cylinders it was unbelievable
Season 4, really. The 'temporal cold war' storyline was pretty horrible whenever it was front-and-center. Season 3 had some really great moments fueled by it: The internal politics of the Xindi and the existence of the Delphic expanse in general were really fun, but overall whenever they bring up the time travel plot it drastically brings things down. Once they hit season 4, it was far more often allowed to really shine and show off the 'formation of the federation' storyline that Enterprise really should have been focusing on from the beginning.
My least favorite Trek, but I am disappointed that we didn't get 1 more season. What they were planning sounds like it would have been far and away more compelling than what came before.
As I was first watching this episode I thought it building to a moral about inclusion. I assumed Phlox would find that the only way to cure the Valacians would be for them to interbreed with the Menk and acquire their genetic immunity. Then the Valcians would have to wrestle with their prejudices about the Menk's inferiority and eventually accept them as equals.
The B plot about possible romance between Phlox and his nurse would be replaced with a Romeo and Jukiet subplot between a Valacian and a Menk where Phlox realizes that their fetus is disease free and will have immunity to the disease.
This would have been a very Star Trekie plot where Archer can still wrestle with whether to give them Warp technology as well and have that serve as the proto-prime directive dilemma.
I thought the same thing. I was very disappointed about the conclusion. The writers did drop the ball on this one ruining a thus far pretty good episode.
I'd love to see 'Trek, Actually' turned into a whole channel of it's own with regular releases, it would be a huge hit. Every episode thus far has been brilliantly written and delivered. Really excellent content. :)
I agree. This series is great and would make for an awesome channel. I would definitely sub to that.
the only reason i havent subbed to the channel is because trek actually is only a small part of it
Nah, quality over quantity every time
You would get bored. Same way as we got bored of Star Wars now.
The budget for such a network would be astronomical.
And for the record, Archer's decision was correct.
Also, of course, re-watching "Enterprise" inevitably leaves me a tad sad and rueful watching the episodes with the late Kellie Waymire, who played Crewman Cutler. I always wonder "What if?" both the series had more seasons and if Waymire hadn't tragically passed away. I loved her character and her work.
I just realized something: Rome started as an insignificant town in Italy, as at the time all the "good stuff" was going on in Greece and Mesopotamia, and transformed into the most powerful empire it's side of the Indus river. In Star Trek Earth's transformation sounds a lot like that, going from an insignificant planet far far away into the leading nation in this Galactic quadrant
Dang, I thought this would be about that episode when Archer's dog "boldly went where no dog had gone before".
A better way for the writers to get their point across is for Archer to say no to sharing Warp Drive technology but yes to curing the disease and have them all ponder at the end of the episode if they did the right thing. Then there could be another episode a few seasons later to follow up with this one where you find the cure had an unintended consequences. Perhaps the cure had an effect on birth rates and caused a spike in the Valakians, which cause them to need the resources that were given to the Menik. When the Enterprise returns they find the Menik on the verge of extinction due to their intervention and now have to find a way to resolve the problem they are at least partially responsible for creating.
Or the later episode could be where they return and find the cure brought on a new disease that even the Menik had no immunity to.
They could make an episode playing later in the timeline, where they return and see the consequneces of their inaction. As the Valakians withered they started to rely on the Menk more and more causing them to slowly inherit their Culture, so when the Valakians die out the Menk had spent generations caring for them while being shaped by them, developing a sort of co dependency. Next step would be how the Menk would handle the revelation that the Valakians could have been saved once they have breached Warp, causing them to deeply mistrust the federation.
@@carlrood4457 Agree! Also it would make more sense if it wasn't a genetic illness but a regular infection or some kind of retrovirus they just didn't have the technology to cure themselves. Barring a cultural proclivity to marry close relatives there's no way for genetic disease to spread to the entire population.
I get the feeling that they were trying to come up with a prototypical prime directive scenario thought of several of them. Rather than just pick one they mashed them together.
Or have them give the Valakians warp technology (or at least a warp-capable ship) and a cure, only to have a series of nasty consequences which lead to the creation of the Prime Directive in the first place. You don't make a sweeping policy like that without a major incident where that policy would have prevented it. Policies in organizations are usually the scar tissue of a previous injury.
They could also have used that second encounter as a reason to start the prime directive of no interference. Seeing what it's done in the past not risking it again. Rather than some arbitrary moral authority.
I absolutely LOVED Enterprise
Oh, yeah. It's the antidote for too much Voyager. It didn't break any molds but in a way it didn't have to.
The name Enterprise has existed in Anglo fleets since at least the 1700's. It's also not uncommon that ships pass their name to later generations, such as Queen Mary and Queen Mary 2
I can't get past the fact that it's Archer and Phlox who get to make this decision! Shouldn't there be, uh, I don't know, some kind of review or appeal process for something like this? Maybe a medical tribunal or something? Also the fact that Phlox made the cure then is withholding it is makes it even more morally dubious than just not helping outright.
I wonder how Mirror Universe Archer handled that situation. ^_^
He gave them a fake cure that accelerated the genetic mutation and enslaved the menk. Taking the planets resources for the empire!
Ironically, Mirror Universe Archer gave them the cure. He wasn't sure why he did though.
Mirror Archer did nothing because he wasn't the captain. ;) The ISS Enterprise was commanded by Captain Maximilian Forest. He and Mirror Phlox probably advocated marking up the price of the cure and extorting the population for all they are worth. Then it's just a mater of whether Forest took their recommendation or not.
Honestly I give this one to the Mirror Universe. A civilization capable of space-flight, but pre-warp? That's a gold mine to an aggressive imperial power. It means their society is advanced enough to deploy medicine, education, and industry, without the slightest threat of resistance to the Empire's military authority.
If we are to assume the Valakians hadn't had an alternate encounter with the Ferengi or whoever, the Terrans probably cured them instantly in exchange for entry into the Terran Empire.
That's Mirror Phlox:1, Prime Phlox: 0
Phlox would have been straight into an agony booth.
There is no guarantee that the Menk would even survive without the Valakians. Unless the crew time jumps, they can't possibly know. Archer could have completely cured the Valakians, and for all anyone knew, the Valakians could have socially evolved and ended up treating the Menk as equals later on.
like europeans that took over the rest of the world did? socially grow i mean. And i am prestty sure the menk would have done fine without the valakians
The cure is not finally up to Archer or Phlox. StarFleet could come back with the cure later.
Phlox was correct in withholding the cure . If Enterprise had not responded to the original spacecraft, they would not have gone to the planet and evolution would have run it's course. What they could have done, as is now accepted as very possible with homo sapiens & Neanderthals, is promote the interbreeding of the two species or sub-species to possibly 'overwrite' the defective gene(s) . This is the prime example of why the Federation came up with the Prime Directive.
@@davetrummer3439 So, what you're saying is that the Vulcans should not have visited Earth in First Contact, and the Federation should never have been formed?
If the Vulcans hadn't visited Earth, and if the Federation hadn't later been formed, just think of all the species whose destinies would have played out uninterrupted by human intervention.
The trouble with any argument about letting things play out the way they "should have" is that it assumes that the intended course of events isn't the one that includes your intervention.
Was there a prime directive at this time?
@@gilatwoodjr there was not, at that time according to Star Trek Canon
@@davetrummer3439 Dude evolution is just a survival mechanism, not a universal determiner of what is right, moral, or correct. We actively interfere in our own evolution constantly. There is absolutely nothing empirical or even a very well thought out philosophy, that points to evolution as what "should" happen.
An easy way to side-step this whole issue would be for Phlox to have discovered the beginnings of a cure but having it require a dedicated team an indeterminate amount of time and Starfleet resources to complete, drawing a parallel to the argument about providing them with Warp tech.
My least favorite "Star Trek" series is a hell of a lot better than my favorite "Reality T.V." series.
I find it strange that both you and this episode never addressed the indentured servitude of the minor species
Indentured servitude and slavery are quite different things. You don't get a contract spelling out the length of your servitude, your duties and your rights, the treatment of your and, if applicable, other family members (to more quickly work off the debt). It's true the unscrupulous "employers" sold the contracts to slave dealers, but this was a very rare event.
Well said...evolution may be the great "equalizer" of the galaxy.....perhaps that is "destiny" after all.
This. This makes the difference.
Sure, Archer could have been like "yeah, here are some meds but y'all gotta get rid of those rules though" but that would put Earth in a position to police that it isn't ready to be in.
Calling it evolutionary 'destiny' isn't saying necessarily that evolution is driven by destiny, but rather that the species, based on natural selection, will have a given fate. So, should the species be saved because it was able to offset labor on the backs of another sentient species and develop tech to reach out? If that happens, isn't that kind of in a way subjecting the would be survivors to an eternity of non-free living?
@@davetrummer3439 The thing about indentured servitude is that the slave owner rarely treated indentured servants as well as the contract might dictate, and courts were more favorable to land holders than they were to poor, possibly non-english speaking servants working for those powerful people. There are many recorded accounts of pretty ridiculously awful treatment of indentured servants.
@@shivermeshoes That's still making "fate" something that's determined by genetics. That's not how evolution works. A species does not have a given fate just because of how they evolve. Nothing in nature is planned. Nothing.
Actually, I've enjoyed watching ST Enterprise, it was slow, but it got interesting later.
I've been watching all the series for the first time this year. It seems they all start out slow and get better after the first season.
"We didn't come out here to play god!"
Except that's exactly what they decided to do. They decided a species was going to die and performed actions (or inactions) that would facilitate that outcome. =_=
no, they decided not to interfere. The Volakians could find a way to cure themselves and no decision made by Phlox and Archer would hinder their salvation.
@@Mishkola You miss the point. Whatever they do, they're playing god. They decide not to interfere? Playing god by observing the dying throes of a species from on high. Giving them the cure that they had on hand? Playing god by saving a species from their 'natural fate'.
A god is a being of essentially infinite agency. Whatever the Enterprise did, they were the ones in the situation with all the agency/power in the world. Whatever they did in that scenario with the valakians, their word was law as the valakians lacked the power to challenge them.
Therefore in this instance the Enterprise is 'god' since they have the agency. They're free to make any choice they so desire.
Some of the best Star Trek episodes of any series, are ones that cause a discussion. I liked Enterprise and especially those episodes that would later form the thinking behind The Prime Directive. Archer frequently has to make hard decisions without the UFP book of rules. Right or wrong, he's the one in the position that has to make them and it shows the sort of skills that are needed by Star Fleet captains.
This is why I thought despite being a prequel, Enterprise is actually pretty good, contrary to many fan opinions.
We don't need brain dead excuses for genocide.
Never turn your back on a Breen. Thanks ARCHER!
it's not like he actively is stopping them from finding a cure .
@Lord Admiral Spire I'm not sure what your point is here. the answer is no (under those terms and conditions) you do not have to give the cure.
@@chiffmonkey Wrong. They do not take on that responsibility. If you save a child from drowning, does that mean you're responsible for that child's needs for the rest of their life? Of course not. The species receiving the cure will be able to use it as a basis to improve on it themselves later on.
I’m a Star Trek fan and I do love enterprise, and I really love the design of the ship. Like a pre Akira class starship.
I think major problem with Dear Doctor is along set one. It came about with writers playing a game of telephone with the prime derivative, changing it from abstract rule to a unshakable dogma .You should talk about Pen Pals.
+Kenneth Benck
What about TNG 7x13, Homeward?
Specifically Picard's monologue:
"This is one of those times when we must face the ramifications of the Prime Directive and honour those lives which we cannot save."
*He says after rejecting a plan to save some of them from extinction without ever revealing themselves.
Enterprise is probably my favorite Star Trek show. It's mostly because of it's early era pre federation style, along with how humanity evolved and began it's space exploration, and how their crudly put togeather ships shaped humankind
It might not have been Archer's intent to wipe out the Velackians, but it was Phlox's.
I feel like Phlox's Bias took over and Archer trusting Phlox was lead to take a wrong decision and that happens, I think that the fact that he didn't get everything right is better than him doing everything well.
Aside from the original....Enterprise is my Favorite
That's my feeling too. Enterprise is the most underrated of all the Trek shows. Really the most underrated show of all time.
I don't know if the Prime Directive is righ or wrong but I do know its practically their religion.
IMAGINE AN EPISODE WITH Q PUTTING THEM ON TRIAL FOR THIS JUST LIKE NEXT GEN🧐🤩🤯
Q: Jonathan Archer, you are guilty of allowing the Valakiens to go extinct even though you had a cure.
Archer: Now wait a minute! I was going to give it to them... but Phlox convinced me not to! It was Phlox's fault!
Q: Yes... but you had the authority to override him and chose not to do so. I hereby find you guilty of being stupid enough to accept Phlox's bullshit.
Archer: I knew I should've accepted that Tellarite doctor. He would've argued with everybody over everything, but at least he would've been willing to cure diseases.
Jonathan Archer never returned home.
The Prime Directive was only written after the events of this episode to justify what Archer did.
Came on this series at random. Ended up loving it. Looking forward to more.
This reminds me of a TNG episode where two planets of people rely on each other.
One planet has people affected by a dreadful 'plague' that will 'kill them' should they not get the 'medicine' from the population of the other planet - that has a very good quality of life, as they only produce one product for export - the 'medicine'.
Captain Picard has to decide whether to give warp coils to the 'sick planet' inhabitants so they can continue importing the 'medicine' from the other planet.
Dr Crusher finds out the 'medicine' to treat the 'plague' is simply a drug of dependence. The 'plague' has long since stopped, but the 'rich' planet keeps making their 'medicine' more potent - thus ensuring the other planet's dependence and addiction.
The Prime Directive is discussed, much to Dr Crusher's disgust.
The 'rich' planet agrees to give a shipment - for later payment - as they "can't let the other planet's inhabitants suffer needlessly".
Furthermore, the 'rich' planet demand that Picard adhere to the Prime Directive - not tell the 'poor' planet that they are actually HOOKED ON A DRUG that they just need to ween themselves off of. In fact Beverly Crusher offers to synthesis a non-addictive pain relief - which Captain Picard refuses - as this would be interrupting the natural course of their development...
'rich' planet is happy, they get the keep their 'drug running' going, and Captain Picard can't inform the 'poor' planet they are just suckers - and the 'poor' people are happy because they just scored a zillion doses of the heaviest narcotic known to the Universe.... HOWEVER - when the 'poor' planet thank Picard for helping them - and for giving them the WARP COILS - Captain Picard says, "Sorry, it goes against the Prime Directive" and refuses to give them the coils... which upsets the 'rich' planet no end - because eventually the 'poor' planet's cargo ships will completely break down and will not be able to travel to its neighbouring 'rich' planet to pick up the 'life saving' highly addictive NARCOTICS.
THAT was a brilliant way to use get around the Prime Directive.
I wonder if the writers of this 'Enterprise' episode simply wanted to 'flesh out' the fuller ramifications of the Prime Directive?
Personally, I think Dr Flox acted out of malice - he passed judgement on the Valakians - that they did not deserve to continue keeping the Menk under their control - and that the Menk should have a right to rise to the top to replace the Valakians - Flox played God.
Dr Flox acted against the Hippocratic Oath - 'do no harm'. Was it because he was Denobulian an considered other species of lesser value - that he alone could decide.
I know Enterprise writers wanted viewers to see the 'people' behind the Uniforms, but this episode left a very bad taste in my mouth. It is similar to the dork who bought the patent for HIV medication - then increased the price from a few cents per dose to over $12 per dose. Happily, I believe that guy is in jail now.
I don't think Phlox acted out of malice or even passed judgement on the Valakians. Rather he fell victim to Brannon Braga's bizarre form of evolutionary predestination that treats evolution as some sort of guided process with a goal in mind. To him, interfering with the natural development where the Valakians go extinct and the Menk replace them was on the same level as violating God's intended plan. This isn't surprising this sort of language popped up, not only are we dealing with an episode on evolution written by Braga we're also dealing with a proto-Prime Directive story and all throughout Braga's run on Voyager characters referred to the Prime Directive as though it were a God with a plan we couldn't interfere with. Janeway defended letting a planet blow itself up with unstable fuel sources by making an appeal to consequences and that's what Phlox does here. The problem is that Phlox is a doctor and interfering with nature is basically his job. It seems arbitrary that he draws the line at stopping a disease when it becomes genetic, unless he's being written by a writer who thinks evolution is predetermined.
@@OsirisLord Dr. Phlox' cure is infact science and technology. A cooperative between humans and denobulans.
So is the coexistence of Valakians and Menks. The Valakians has denied the Menk access to Valakian science and technology as Dr.Phlox denies Valakians access to Denobulan and Human science and technology. The Valakians surpress the Menk through the exact same reasons as Dr. Phlox and Capt. Archer. Therefor to not give the Valakians access to the cure, they give the Menk access to become the dominant species, through natural selection and evolution. Since the Menk has a natural immunity to the disease. So Dr. Phlox desicion and reasoning is the right one, in regard of Valakians desicion to withhold key factors of science and technology towards the Menk.
If Dr. Phlox and Capt. Archer gave the Valakians the cure, whoes to say that Dr. Phlox and Capt. Archer doesn't commit future genocide towards the Menk?
The Valakians has the science and technology and time to cure them selves. The Valakians, denies the Menk access TO science, technology and fertile soil. So that the Menk can't gain access to the sources that they better them selves and therefor the Valakians are holding the Menk hostage, through the same reasons as Dr. Phlox.
Because either way the ethics are clear .
"§ 12
A doctor shall in his or her practice have due regard for the national economy. Unnecessary or excessively costly methods must not be employed.
"
A doctor must not enter into relationships with the pharmaceutical industry and/or suppliers of medical equipment that may be detrimental to the confidence in the doctor’s professional assessments.
A doctor must contribute to the distribution of medical resources in accordance with generally accepted ethical norms. A doctor must in no way seek to provide individual patients or groups with unjustified advantages, whether financial, in respect of priorities, or otherwise. A doctor must give notice of insufficient resources in his or her area of responsibility.
The ethics that Dr. Phlox will undermine is the last part here:
"A doctor must contribute to the distribution of medical resources in accordance with generally accepted ethical norms. A doctor must in no way seek to provide individual patients or groups with unjustified advantages, whether financial, in respect of priorities, or otherwise. A doctor must give notice of insufficient resources in his or her area of responsibility."
Because giving the Valakians the cure, will give the Valakians an "unjustified advantage", over the Menk, that the Menk doesn't have, because the Valakians hasn't given the Menk the same advantages through Valakian science, technology and "fertile soil".
My question is this: is it stated that Phlox got his MD on earth? How do we really know he took the Hippocratic Oath??? He could have earned his degree on his home planet!
Ross of Accursed Farms (Frreemans Mind and Game Dungeon) actually made a video on that episode recently.
@@Fiskeflett1 this sounds similar to Judism "An eye for an eye" kind of punishment. And it is too conservative according to "Star Trek" core ideology. It also contradict to First contact value : if Vulcan didn't make the first contact, there will be no Star fleet, and the human may nuke themselves out of misery. So Vulcan play the care-taker roles, so the question is, why the story doesn't explore the caretaker roles?
There was one easy way to fix this episode, have Phlox be unable to find a cure. It was still a better season one episode but that's due to the quality of season one.
Enterprise just can't be my least favorite Star Trek show, it got me into Star Trek when I was a kid. So it'll always have a special place in my heart.
I think this was an excellent episode, its positive reception again confirmed that a lot of people are closer to psychopaths than to actual empathetic humans beings.
Okay so I'm definitely in the minority in that Enterprise is my favorite star trek show
It is mine, too. I admit I enjoyed all of them except the original series (or let's say the first couple of episodes had me lose motivation to keep watching). I grew up with TNG and Voyager, and then Enterprise came around. I loved it!! I enjoy Discovery as well, even though it's obviously a very different, more Marvel-esque type of Star Trek, but it has many very cool characters in my opinion.
I think Archer and Phlox must be the ones running the coronavirus vaccine research...
My biggest issue with this episode is not that withholding the cure unintentionally casts Archer and Phlox in a negative light, but that their reasoning allows a seriously flawed reinterpretation of the Prime Directive, which casts the entire franchise negatively. Enterprise can be treated as an exception in many ways with Archer torturing people, leaving other ships stranded in space, and so on. Archer doesn't have to be a pure hero for the show to be good, just like Michael Burnham in Discovery. The problem is that he isn't just messing up his corner of the Universe with his mistakes; he's rewriting the ideals of Star Trek.
The reviewer overlooks a very important part of the Phlox's reasoning -- the part that finally convinces Archer of this course of (in)action. Phlox hypothesizes that letting the Valakians live inevitably dooms the Menk under the absurd idea that two intelligent species cannot co-exist on the same planet. If the Valakians survive, then the increasing intelligence of the Menk is a ticking time bomb for social upheaval. If Star Trek in any way makes a social commentary on our society, with relationships among planets representing relations among varying groups in our world, then this idea represents an essentially fascist, segregationist, apartheid point of view. It claims, in essence, that race war is inevitable.
As implied, the problem lies in the prime directive. The prime directive is a good foundational ethical rule for a massive organization, but it is incredibly imprecise. It is not meant to drive individual decisions, but to shape organizational policy. It can be interpreted through an isolationist lens, as a prohibition against colonialism, or even as merely a limit on the authority of starship crews, that interventions sanctioned by the Federation must flow through political and social leaders, not through the essentially military channel of Starfleet. All of those are reasonable, but this episode presents the directive as a rule against individual compassion. If you see a person lying unconscious, Dr. Phlox says to check their passport before resuscitating them in order not to "interfere" in a foreign culture. More importantly, this is presented as good reasoning and the foundation of the franchise's entire moral worldview. In Star Trek, ideals are everything. The characters can get it wrong, but the show can't. It destroys the whole point. Now rather than watching a fantastic future world enabled by cooperation and good will, we are watching a world of distrust and inescapable adversarial relationships among different groups.
clearly you never understood the prime directive. the MAIN thing it prohibits is trying to help people because it could cause unintended consequences
@@FirstArchon they're not really disagreeing with that, but this episodes clashes with that and then claims it's the only true interpretation. It can be a good general guide, but if there's a fire and you don't let people know because you don't know if someone else in the building could be a serial killer, that is monstrous.
*This* episode would call that the moral and valid choice, and that's a horrible warping of the prime directive.
I think you're missing the point of the series. There was no prime directive, no guidelines about first contact, no nothing. There was no Federation. There was just Archer and his crew exploring the galaxy and in the beginning helping out as they could. The features of the Federation we see on TOS have their roots in instances like this one. Also, in the episode, there is no hintof a race war. The Menk aren't actively resisting the Valakians. By the time a majority of the Menk would reach the level of awareness needed to determine they were being mistreated, the Valakians would have probably died out.
Nah, to me it sounded like he was trying to free the other species from slavery by doing nothing. It wasn't about evolution so much as it was about a power struggle.
If so he could and should of argued for that. Evolution is non-personal, The safety of an entire race of sentient people is personal and makes for a much greater argument.
So wait, just because they were racists that justifies genocide? I doubt every man, woman, and child of these aliens all enslaved the other species. By that logic we should've murdered off all of the Germans for attempting to enslave or kill off the people they conquered under the Nazi government even when not everyone even agreed with that government.
@@brandonlyon730 İt is not genocide or anything about slavery. They are choosing who are gonna survive and they decide not to choose and let nature works. They have 200 years so they can find cure on the other hand if you give the medicine right now you are choosing genocide to the other species. Sorry for my bad england
Poorly reasoned morals is hardly something new to trek lol.
Couldn't have been put better.
Exactly, if anything the writers nailed it because the prime directive has always had this flaw in it...hence why our favorite captains sometimes feel the need to break it.
ENT is ahead of the execrable Voyager and behind DS9, TOS, and TNG in that order, in my opinion. (TAS gets a pass for making my childhood slightly more bearable.)
Using Floxx's logic, one would never go to a doctor...
This is wholly incorrect, and completely misses the point of the episode. Treating the diseases of the members of one's own society is very different from affecting a sweeping change on another society with advanced technology. It's why the Vulcans were so hesitant to share advanced technology with humans, and while it's portrayed by the humans as unfair and wrong, this episode actually uses it as an example of why it may have been the right call. Captain Archer even admits to this in this episode.
Enterprise was just getting really good when they pulled the plug.
I liked enterprise on a second watch, first few seasons are a bit meh but from season three onwards it really started getting good and seeing the ideas they had for a 5th series, I'm sad it got cancelled. I was happy that the ent era got a little bit of love in star trek beyond which is one of the underated Kelvin timeline movies.
I'm sort of part of the problem there. I didn't see Beyond until it came on Netflix and I definitely put it solidly in the middle of all Star Trek movies, mainly because it's hard to push Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, Final Frontier, and First Contact down.
It was actually pretty well reviewed. It's just that it didn't draw in the casual fans very much. Definitely Pine's best outing as Kirk. I could easily have seen Shatner in his prime doing it.
Different types of Starships have had shared names before. Great example would be the starship Defiant. In the TOS episode, The Tholian Web, USS Defiant NCC-1764 was a Constitution Class vessel. In DS9, it was a class/ship of it's own with the designation NX-74205.
Let's not forget the Defiant was also in an episode of Enterprise. Or was it two? Three? I think I remember Evil Hoshi ended up with it.
Yeah, I don't think the problem so much was that the ship in Enterprise was called Enterprise, as it was that other Star Trek shows on multiple occasions explicitly talked about the time-line of ships called Enterprise with no obvious room for the NX-01 in there, both with Scotty's "the original Enterprise, no bloody A, B, C or D" and multiple instances of paintings showing the history of ships by that name, starting with one of the 18th or 19th century sailing ships (I believe it was the 1799 ship, but I don't think they say exactly), followed by the nuclear carrier and then the TOS era ship. Of course, even that skips over multiple known ships by the name, so I guess it would still be possible that they just didn't think the NX-01 was significant enough for that kind of memorial ... but given the events of the show, that sounds weird.
really enjoy your take on things . Glad I found your channel . Don't have many trek fan friends.
Life finds a way …..love you Phlox, but it was a bad call Ripley
when the show aired here in germany, i was confused by the name of the show. The german Title is "Star Trek Enterprise". TOS's german title was "Raumschiff Enterprise" or for you english speaking guys "Spaceship / Starship Enterprise". I always thought it was a weird thing that the shows have almost the same title. Only years later i learned that TOS is just called "Star Trek" in its original title
Ooohhh....I've been waiting for this one *cracks knuckles*
I think you give Archer too much credit, Steve. "Intent" is clear; the Valakians must die so the Menk can flourish. If the desired result is NOT to help the Menk flourish, then what purpose is there? If they are removed from the equation, what are Phlox and Archer doing besides dangling a cure on a fishing line just out of reach? I suppose THAT doesn't exactly cause genocide, but if we are to believe, as the episode frames, that Phlox convinces Archer of his position,, that the Valakians must die, there is definite intent there.
Further, the Trek universe does handle the issue at 11:30 in "Tattoo", arguably the most-racist episode of Trek ever. Thanks Voyager. Aliens did give certain groups of humans evolutionary advantages....that did not include immunity to smallpox, unfortunately, so their "projections" were shit. Nature: 1 Alien interventionists: 0 in that regard.
What's even worse is that the Neanderthal framing means the Valakians are being punished NOW for being non-violent THEN. Phlox outright says, on almost any other world where multiple sapient races arise, one invariably dominates the others and wipes its competitors out. That the Valakians and Menk have something of a cooperative relationship, AT ALL, is a miracle. They have found a way to peaceably exist. It's clearly not perfect, but it IS non-violent, and has hope to improve. But because the Valakians did not turn the Menk into a fossil record, their presence NOW is dooming their entire race to death.
Precisely. The Menk COULD be better for the Valakians' absence... but who's to say the universe wouldn't be better off with both species around? Or neither? If you're 'not going to play God', ok fine, so why cure any disease? Shouldn't nature take its course? If Khan Noonian Sing had gotten sick and died, wouldn't the universe be better off? You can't have it both ways. TNG addressed this in that time traveller episode, and far better imo.
@@kirkaugustin2232 I'm quite certain that fatal genetic mutations can just happen on Star Trek.
I enjoyed this episode, it did introduce a new (if somewhat biased) way to look at the nature of space exploration. You expertly pointed out that the Neanderthal argument was flawed in that it's not guaranteed that one sapient species' survival is predicated on their exclusive dominance of their homeworld. Had Neanderthal continued to exist, there was no guarantee that it would mean the destruction of homo sapiens.
The Next Generation had an episode that touched on this a bit better (in my opinion). "Pen Pals" focused on Data making audio contact with a young girl named Sarjenka of a pre-warp civilization. By avoiding disclosing he was in space or of another planet's civilization, he was able to avoid directly violating the Prime Directive. When her planet was at risk of shaking itself apart (and the USS Enterprise had the technology to save it) Captain Picard and the senior staff make their points about why they should or should not intervene. What seems to settle the matter was the Prime Directive: this was a pre-warp civilization and to intervene could/would have wide ranging effects on the future of their sector of space once/if the people achieved space/warp travel.
In a surprise twist, the android incapable of feeling emotion successfully appeals to the emotions of the crew and lets them hear Sarjenka's current transmission. Her attempts to communicate have gone from just voicing concern about the tremors on her homeworld to a plea for help. Rather than spoil what happens, go watch the episode.
DarkLight523 One of my favorite episodes. It had a lot of heart.
It’s because the Prime Directive is full of crap anyway
Yes, the correct answer to the neanderthal question is that there would be neanderthals on the Enterprise.
Wasn't there another episode about consequences of warp technology in a species not ready for it.
Shortly after first contact didn't humans send out a probe with instructions for warp technology and the species on a planet where it landed used it and destroyed their planet in the process?
Yes, I think you talking about a voyager episode.
At least he didn't taunt them by letting them know he had the cure.
There was a lot to like about Enterprise. I enjoyed watching it much more than I enjoyed Voyager.
No, he did Not deliberately inflict conditions. His team Assessed the conditions that were already there, did the necessary research to allow them to do something about it, and decided not to. He decided to NOT inflict any kind of conditions, the exact opposite of that. Not saying it wasn't a shitty thing to do, but it doesn't meet the definition of genocide.
If he could remove the conditions with little effort, then he may as well have inflicted them. The fact they still exist is his fault. To draw a distinction is merely a technicality.
No, they aren't Archer's fault. The conditions existed before Enterprise came along, and would have existed if it hadn't. Non-interference does not suddenly make those conditions Archer's fault. It was not Archer's responsibility or job to fix a naturally occurring flaw in their genetics... and who knows what unintended consequences would have occurred had he saved them?
@@katiekatie6289 Right now youu could help relieve the suffering of people in third world nations with very little effort. Does the fact that you haven't done so mean that you are responsible for that suffering? That you might as well have been the one to create those conditions?
"No bloody A, B, C or D"
Love it
@Steve Shives, mate, PRIME Archer impersonation xD Loved it!
Another point can be made if they die out, will the Menk suffer the same fate because they are dependent on the Valakians and then a mass extinction of two species will result.
MKDumas1981 maybe.
ipponyc this is a pretty good argument
ipponyc They've got a increased intelligence!
That's a big reach. The Menk were only dependent because the Valakians would not allow them to live on good land where they could grow their own food and kept them in a condition of serfdom. With the Valakians gone, the Menk would take over their land and be able to thrive on their own. They were more than smart enough to be able to understand and use much of the technology that the Valakians left behind. Some of it may have taken a little more time for them to grasp fully, but understanding would have come with time.
No matter what happened, Phlox and Archer were going to be playing God. They were going to be setting a course for the Valakian people no matter what action they took, so why not make the more benevolent choice? They HAVE a cure, do they not? It's 100% going to work, yes? There is no debate, here. Archer was right, both as a Captain and as a decent human being, to question Phlox.
Heck, Deep Space Nine, set two centuries and change later, would have an episode ("The Quickening") with a similar scenario. Dr. Julian Bashir and Lt. Cmdr. Jadzia Dax find a civilization ravaged by a plague that the Dominion used to punish them for two whole centuries. They've been knocked back to something resembling Renaissance-era Italy.
And what do Dax and Bashir do? They get to work. They come up with solution after solution, and nothing seems to work. Dax eventually gives up. but Bashir presses on, and eventually, he creates a vaccine that causes a newly-born child to exhibit none of the symptoms of the plague. When Bashir returns to DS9, it's implied that he continues to work on a cure.
Dr. Julian Bashir has better ethics and morals than Phlox does.
Yes but that's not the same conundrum. DS9 civilzation was a victim of war, not evolution.
Star Trek writers didn't understood evolution in Voyager nor in Enterprise.
Understand
Love your ethical breakdown and discussion of the episode's delimma!
Great deep dive!!!
I like Startrek Enterprise very much but we all know that Startrek Original Series is obviously the first and that one we love. And the other shows are very nice and we love them too because each one has an enchanting point
Enterprise is the best Star Trek.
Even the Enterprise books are pretty good.
Tripp’s not dead, Section 31.
I actually enjoyed Enterprise for the most part. The dynamic between humans and vulcans is a really interesting and the Xindi are awesome. I just wish that some of the ensemble cast had been utilized better and that Trip hadn't been killed off so unceremoniously when they knew the show was canceled.
I imagine Star Fleet went back there. All they did in the episode is to not decide RIGHT NOW to intervene. They could have come back in 1 or 10 years and give them the cure. Even negotiate more favorable conditions for the menkh to "evolve".
It's also quite possible that they found the cure by themselves.
could this be the breens original home planet?
Genocide is a active action to kill, Genocide is not a passive action.
john hodgson not handing over the cure is an active action that will lead to millions dead and total collapse of their society
@@trl2151 Except this is not a universal law. There are limitations.
I am not required to help if that would put me in danger, I would have to ignore other Duties and the like. It also only applies to immedaite danger, like someone needing CPR right now. There is a very low treshold to get out of this as average Joe.
Otherwise you not working to actively end world hunger right now would be a crime. Indeed you going to sleep without having solved every single issues on the planet would be.
Archer had a duty to earth. The danger was not immedaite. And there was a decent chance of some other spacefaring civilisation comming along and helping. Or even just Star Fleet reading the Report and sending another ship/asking the Vulcans/whatever.
If you walk off a cliff, and I do not Stop you, I am not guilty of pushing you. Anymore than I would be guilty of murder, because I failed to stop you from committing suicide.
I can not commit genocide, by withholding assistance, asked for or not. NOT doing something, is NOT an overt action designed to harm, ever.
In fact, to force someone to respond to your advantage, regardless of free will, is Coercion or even slavery.
Yes. Declining to throw the life preserver to a drowning person is not murder. Still a dick move though.
Good job. Your very intelligent thinking things through.
What I think is funny about this is that it's debatablely not only a trolley problem, but also a Monty Hall problem.
evolutionary destiny kind of is a thing in the star trek universe, though...
in any case, the actual cure is probably interbreeding.
This was the episode that made me give up on Enterprise.
Yes, my first time watching it and it's a bit slow. Really hated this episode.
Enterprise was my favorite season personally. I also agree with your assessment. It would have been cool to see him land on 2 different sides with both issues. Withhold the warp drives but give the cure.
There's another episode where he leaves a ship and its inhabitants vulnerable, crippled, and hopeless against an attack by space pirates. I felt that one even more.
Enterprise had the same issues as TNG and the rest-the first year always looked like they were written by people that never seen TOS. I was bothered by the errors in the equipment (the communicator is the translator ) but compared to discovery and JJ Abrams, they are perfectly on the beam. I would have loved a two part mirror episode.
There is a two part mirror universe episodes right before the last three episodes and it's entirely set in the mirror universe so maybe u mean them actually going over lol
The valakians could have been able to develop their own cure
Take into account also, if they had cured the valakians, who's to say they weren't wiped out later by another space faring race, or, they ended up like the Xindi and become a threat to the federation in the future?
the thing with this episode is that this episode is that there are two species on the planet. one the Valakian is are dying while the other half is evolving to replace the Valakian. the truth is Archer is in a rock in hard place. say the cure was employed the Valakian the other species might not evolve and the Valakian might have just got rid of them. so, either way, there is no true victory.
+MegaWetwilly
By your argument, we shouldn't have any kind of emergency response or hospitals, because it wouldn't make sense to save someone from dying, just so that they can die of old age later. It also has shades of the Baby Hitler argument, in that you shouldn't save a child from dying because they might grow up and become Hitler, i.e. nonsense.
Honestly, if the Valakians came close to finding a cure of their own, Phlox would probably tell Archer to bomb their medical research lab with Photon Torpedoes in order to stop them from finding a cure, just because the Valakians believe in Menk racial supremacy.
So if the Whale probe decided that humans were holding whales back and just decided to wipe out humans, that's ok right?
I remember this episode and wondered why Archer didn’t help them and show the Valaciacs what they know about the Minkx.
Great video. You got yourself a new sub
Evolutionary logic goes out the window when sentience is involved. You ought to help people who ask you for help. The alternative is eugenics at its worst. The diseased folks will have the chance make their own Warp drives when the cure is in their hands and their future is secured.
Of course. Sentience often throws a wrench in natural selection because sentient beings do things like help the weak survive. And really, what reason is there to be beholden to evolution as a moral force? It's just the process that brought us to here, it doesn't have to be our guide moving on from here.
@@georgeparkins777 It's not even a moral force. Evolution is just the mechanic by which organisms adapt to their environment; no more, no less. Ascribing morality to evolution is just absurd.
"Who are we to determine their next step in evolution?"
Physicians swear to uphold the Hippocratic Oath and its critical dictum:
“first, do no harm.”
Most lawyers will tell you that about the Bystander's No Duty Rule. For instance, if I come across you drowning in a swimming pool, I have no legal duty to come to your rescue, but once I undertake the task to save you, I assume a duty of due care to you. If I save you, I must save you right or you can sue me.
2:55 - A fitting moment, when I was taking a sip of scotch at the same time as you quoting Scotty.
I actually loved Enterprise!
It's not my favorite, but it's definitely not my LEAST favorite, either.
Personally that distinction goes to TOS for me. The original series has a few good episodes but by and large I find the show too strange for my taste.
My top Trek
1. DS9
2. Next Generation
3. Enterprise
4 Voyager
5. Original series.
1.DS9
2. TNG
3.Voyager
4.Original Series
5.Enterprise
I thought the final enterprise episode showed that the cannon should be that we were watching a holodeck projection of history.
Dear Doctor's moral confusion is infuriating.
I think the proper term might be death by depraved indifference. Some obscene high count of the same charge for refusal to lend aid after a direct request for it.
Do you have a different understanding of the word "inflict" than I do? Not giving someone something doesn't inflict. Taking something inflicts. Imposing something inflicts. Not acting doesn't inflict.
When I see your house on fire and do not call 911 on my cell phone, or I see you drowning and do not throw a life ring that I'm holding, then talk to me about "not acting doesn't inflict".
Dean West That's not inflicting
Enterprise is my favorite loved them all but this one is the one that makes the most mistakes and faces decisions of how to not repeat them i love how it faces huminoid deficiencies and explores the beginning of the federation
I actually think the writers felt they had to/intended with the episode to establish the precedent for the prime directive, that the prime directive wasn't just a vulcan rule but that non-interference to a fault was something also established by early human explorers. They just... didn't do it very well.
I loved Star Trek and enterprise was my favorite show has less continuity breaks then voyager and it was just more down to earth and gridy
I enjoyed Enterprise. Needed a more cohesive story through-line though.
BTW , this is my 1st time seeing this channel - Great Job Capt. Shives !!
Very sharp analysis, convinced me. I always thought that Archer did the ultimatly right thing in accordance to the (laterly to be drawn up) prime directive. I'm gonna watch more of your videos. :)