I like how they spend 5 minutes debating what qualifies as support and utility, and why a utility class isn't a support class, only for Monty to call the Wizard an A tier support class for having great utility lol
The dudes are just heavily biased towards wizards. A lot of the internet is because "lol wish spell". Almost no one is actually playing at a high enough lv to use the spell. I could stomach (barely) them giving the S to the wizard in utility but the wizard isn't a support. The wizard is such an overrated class.
@@adaelion3772 i actually agree with paladin being A tier support... they get plenty of healing, especially the higher level they get, they can end the more common conditions with lay on hands, and their auras are probably the best support ability in the game.
Honestly the "who's going to play the paladin" question is valid. Like when I was picking a character for Curse of Strahd and found out we had NO healing and very little support (evocation wizard and Assassin rogue) I grabbed paladin, not cleric. I needed the hit point buffer and being able to stay up longer and make concentration checks (that +3 to saves bonus is AMAZING) is what takes paladin over most other classes when it comes to support I think. Built in passive support that I don't need to concentrate on is insanely good. Pair that with Satyr where you get advantage on all saves against spells and magical effects and your ability to make saves goes through the roof. It is DEF not better than the cleric or bard. But I'd say a passive support ability is still support and paladins just come built with passive ability that as long as they are conscious, enemies can shut off.
I think one issue I have with these videos is the hyper focus on spell lists without looking at the subclass abilities. I know not all work the same but looking at their overall function you can get/give a better perspective
Baffled that Druid got a B from Monty. I came into this thinking it had a shot to win it… I truly feel like Bard is being overestimated in some categories here, like it doesn’t have enough spells known to get the number of prepared healing that Druids can offer. There’s also a number of Druid subclasses that go S-tier in support (Shepherd, Dreams, Stars, Wildfire)
The Bard gets between 22 and 24 spells known in total(unless I overlooked something), so personally I do not think they lack spells known. They do also get Song of Rest, which is surprisingly potent over the course of an adventure day(not to mention, a full campaign). Also, they get a lot of spells and effects that support the party outside of just healing. They are definately A-tier. But so are Druids in my opinion.
@@fendelphi Indeed, the Bard certainly deserves an A here, just like it did in Utility. But I’m not agreeing with Monty’s logic - he’s spending a lot of time focusing on Faerie Fire and Moon Druids, as if those are the two defining traits of a Druid. Not everyone plays Moon, and over half of the subclasses do go deeper in on support. Faerie Fire is one spell in a big list and while they don’t have all the healing options of a cleric, they have a lot more crowd control which fits the bill of Support I think. A+ for me, and I do think it edges Bard out because of the prepared list.
@@BoPeep_42 I cant really see one being "better support" over the other. Bardic Inspiration is such a versatile multi-tool, allowing it to be used offensively or defensively, while still being able to cast spells in the same turn. And they can get the "best support spells" from other classes with Magical Secrets. The Druid's spell list is more geared toward support, and can better prepare for an encounter if you have prior knowledge(which I do find very powerful), but the Druid's overall base features does not really allow more than 1 support action(usually a spell) per turn. You need certain subclasses to go beyond that(but then they also get really good at it, for sure). The Bard comes with that "second support action" in the base package(Bardic Inspiration), which is probably why a lot of people prefer it over the Druid when categorizing "best support". Vanilla Bards can simply respond more rapidly during a crisis, while many other classes require specific subclasses.
Everyone seems to forget that Alchemist Artificers can use a spell slot to create an elixir from their list that *isn't random.* Unfortunately, the elixirs don't get better or more numerous with higher level spell slots. But for level 1 slots, almost every option on the list is a better support effect than almost anything you can cast normally.
To put it in short: *Support* is *making your party better* at what they're already good at, helping where they may not be so great, and making sure things run smoothly. *Utility* is granting your party access to *new tools* in the party toolbox to help or solve problems.
Before I watch the video, I like to make my own guess. Now the difficult part is, I believe both Cleric and Bard to be the best support class in the game, with the healings and buff that they have and can give to their party, it's hard for me to pick which if the two would out perform the other.
These last two video discussions on the Bard really highlight why I think it's the best single class in the game. Every party needs a glue guy, and the Bard is kind of the ultimate glue guy. If you need something done the Bard can do it.
I totally agree with the fighter absolutely not being a supportive role, but I think an interesting look at what they CAN do to support the party is what Liam is doing in C3 with his fighter. Bait and Switch and Goading attacks are absolutely frontline abilities, but they also do have a supportive aspect, especially when it comes to getting the attention off of a party member in trouble and giving them a buff or making it harder for an enemy to go after them. And that has to do with how he role plays that character, but it’s still a subversive look at how a front liner can absolutely support their party with battlefield tactics.
Moon druid is quite nice support / utility because it is using diffrent resources for fight and supporting. Moon druid need jest 1-2 damage/controll spells per fight then can prepace and use majority of its spellcasting to help party.
"Wizards don't have a single _real_ healing spell on their list, and I don't know if there is any way to change that." I will say it: Life Transference is _great_ healing option when you're standing cosily at the back of the battlefield just hurling Fireballs, but you see someone in your party who's vital to keep you together intact (so anyone who has access to healing spells) barely alive. From the smorgasbord of Wizard's 3rd level spells (Fireball, Counterspell, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly, etc), it might be the least likely pick, but it helps! Self-healing spells though… man, I am so salty that Vampiric Touch is eh and Enervation is just a bit overglorified Witch Bolt. (other) Ways to get _reliable_ healing as a Wizard? Starting with a level in Artificer (there's more to that than Guidance and Cure Wounds), grabbing Artificer Initiate and getting the two aforementioned spells, or grabbing Fizban's Gift of the Metallic Dragon. Furthermore, Eberron's Mark of Healing Halfling makes _any_ spellcaster able to get a few healing spells (Divination Wizard heavily recommended - Portent counts as both support and utility!). Pair that with a level of Life Cleric (or even Artificer) and you might be a better healer than the rest of 'em! This is of course setting-restricted, but… Your best (and easiest) bet is tossing a few healing potions onto your familiar though.
Love the content y'all making, just spammed watching like 8 of your videos. Was wondering if y'all could do a video on how to make a dread knight or something, like a paladin to Orchest, being an unholy paladin
So got a couple of years as an Artificer Player now at various levels. I'd suggest that the Dudes reevaluate the Artificer. Monty's biggest point was "Artificer Players tend to be selfish with their Infusions", but no other class was looked at from the Player lense. In my own games games I've vary rarely seen a Cleric actually fill the support role. Should Player style for Clerics be used to reflect the class' ability to be an S Tier Support? No. The Artificer is an A+ Support character when looked through the objective lense on the Class' ability to buff the party. It's the only Class I know of that can raise ability scores....
Under 'Unearthed Arcana' you get a much better wupport sub-class option for the Wizard class - The "Theurgist" - Bisically a Wizrd who gets access to 'Cleric domains' instead of their normal 'schools of magic' - but still have access to all the basic non-specialization Wizard spells.
We try to avoid talking about Unearthed Arcana in our video guides and rankings since it's playtest material subject to change (and sometimes it just gets scrapped from further development entirely). If it makes it into a published sourcebook, we'll definitely discuss it though!
@@DungeonDudes I actually think there is enough material in UA that you guys could easily do a video on 'UA stuff that should be made canon (because its already pretty close to game-ready)'
What's the best support class, and which kind of cleric exactly? As a rogue main, the hardest balancing act of the class is to justify not tackling most problems alone. It's not at all a support class because it's built around being better alone at anything that is not a head on fight.
Honestly, if a Battle Smith just uses Repeating Shot on a Musket or Heavy Crossbow, they can contribute just fine, and give the rest of their infusions to party members.
Monti's gotta apologize to the Rangers, because the survival element of support was totally thrown away. I know not every table plays with food rules, but no other class can provide food and shelter without a spell slot. Roleplay support HAS to count too. This can apply to monks and druids as well
now I'm wondering how my monk/rouge nearly died (even with deus ex machina magic bat healing her five times) when the other five party members were a teir classes and one c teir...
Monk deserves a bump; way of mercy provides options for recovery and resolving situations, and refreshes on a short rest, so C tier for monk with way of monk a B tier in your ranking system.
Idk about that. If your concentration is broken or an enemy caster casts Dispel Magic, your friend is mortal danger. I like the idea of twinning Polymorph as a sorcerer. I do the same with Haste.
When I think of the distinction between support and utility, I think that support is helping teammates be better or healing type spells. When I think of Utility, I think of the ability to solve problems for the party, whether it’s a locked door, a chasm, a puzzle, sneaking, understanding languages, etc.
I think of support as aid, they're the characters who are buffing and debuffing, trying to heal their comrades, and create openings for the damage dealers. Utility to me is more out-of-combat how can we get out of this, thinking outside the box, rule-bending characters. To me, support is like an instant aid and utility is more of a multi-step, trust the process aid.
@@Rellyks Utility and support can both be utilised in and out of combat. Battlefield control is combat utility. Long term buffs are non combat support.
Barbarian are great supporter. They are awesome at preventing dmg to your party (by killing everyone quickly) and they are great at conversation (by ending them quickly with killing).
@@BenTheFool tundra actively adds temp hp to you and allies and the whole subclass allows the sharing of resistances like fire, thunder, and cold. Though out of curiosity, what does ancestral guardian do? I haven't looked into it my self. I only mentioned the ones I did because I was familiar with those abilities
@@drepruitt6780 initial ability forces disadvantage on attacks by a creature you've struck of they go to anyone but you. Then their spirit shield at 6 reduces damage on allies (which at 14 turns into damage reversed on the attacking creature).
Some of the cleric subclass features are just insane. I am currently playing a Grave Domain Cleric, and I have saved multiple members of the party, including myself, from instant death with the Sentinel at Death's Door feat. Undoing crits is insanely powerful
If you're giving the artificer an A, I don't understand how you can rank the Druid lower than that? Especially if the argument for it is "Moon Druids won't really be supporting the party." Okay, well, what about Shepherd? Dreams? Stars? Heck, even Wildfire! Most of the druids subclasses have features that are tweaked towards enhancing their support abilities -- (or at the very least, their healing abilities). Also, when it comes to Bless vs. Faerie Fire, while I think that Bless wins out a bit and has more benefits, I also really think it depends on the size of your party. I frequently play in groups of 5-6+ people and usually play a spellcaster, so when it comes time for the Cleric to cast Bless, the backline is usually not getting it, and I've found that Clerics will be a little reluctant to spend spell slots higher than 1st or maybe 2nd level to bless more than 3/4 people. When you cast Faerie Fire though (and it lands), that's a straight up buff for everyone, regardless of positioning or party size. And it's useful at all stages of the game. In smaller parties though where everyone can get the benefits of Bless easier, or you have a Peace Cleric in the party to double the amount of people you can bless, then yeah I'd probably say its a little better. Especially since it doesn't require a saving throw. Druids kinda lose out on healing a bit, I say that because they don't really get too many of the Cleric's really nice, higher level healing spells -- specifically mass heal. However, Druids can easily compete with Cleric for the main healer role. In fact I'm going to make a bold statement and say that I think that Shepherd, Stars, and maybe even Dreams are better healers than most clerics besides Life. (I'm not counting the Twilight Druid because temp hp isn't the same as healing). Druids do also get Polymorph, (which is somehow a better healing spell then most healing spells.) On top of this, Druids can still remove your curses, resurrect party members, keep people healthy in and out of combat, cast spells like protection from evil & good / protection from energy, freedom of movement, get spells like enhance ability & pass without trace, and just like the cleric, they can swap these spells out each day. Furthermore, if battlefield control is one of the metrics by which you rank a class' ability to support, then Druid beats the Cleric by a country mile. I can still concede that the Druid's spell list loses out just a little bit when it comes to Cleric as far as support goes, but its not so far behind that it should get anything lower than an A, especially if its competing with artificer for the same spot.
I cannot wrap my head around how Druid could get anything less than an A ranking. They don’t match the Cleric’s spell list but they come very close and while Moon Druid pushes you away form support, almost every other subclass brings in more support features.
I tend to agree with you, because the Druid is such a Swiss Army Knife, and it needs a Subclass to actually narrow it down and make it do something more limited. Druids are good support on their own, yet some of the subclasses definitely excel at it. Likewise for frontlining, magical damage, utility, infiltration and exploration. BUT, the Druid deserves credit for thing they didn't think of: GRASSLAND DRUIDS GET ALL THAT SUPPORT PLUS HASTE!!!
The point I would make in addition to the prepared spell list is that the limited number of spells the bard has means it has to pick and choose and because it is so great at utility it is often going to skip some support spells that the cleric either will have or will be able to get in 8 hours. Also druid is awesome at support bringing the normal ones plus faerie fire support spells.
I think an interesting follow up video once you’ve covered all the roles would be to do a pseudo review, but looked at how well each class performs every role. “The artificer gets a B for front lining, A for support…” etc. would be interesting to have all of your rankings for the class on one page and discuss the findings.
Yes! Like, druid is one of my favorite classes and it definitely won't win S in any categories but it comes up as high A in multiple which just refects versatility imo.
I just saw him tweet about relaxing in the sun after months in the basement, writing, and then I put on this video and I was like, “Yup, he wasn’t kidding.”
I think if Artificer is A, Druid should probably be A as well. "Well if they play a moon druid and cast conjure animals they're not doing much support" is true, but you could say the same thing about "If an artificer uses all their infusions on themselves they're not doing much support". Druids even have some advantages over Bards as far as full caster support goes. Druid is a full spellcaster that gets revivify at 5th level. Bards don't even get a revival spell until 9th level with raise dead. Similarly, Druid gets guidance--fantastic support cantrip. Bards don't get guidance. Also, Druids at night get to dump all their unused spell slots into Goodberry; Bards don't get Goodberry. (not to say Druid is better support than Bard, but it just shows how Druid is really not that far behind Bard and actually has some advantages over Bard. If Bard is A++, Druid should be able to sneak in at A). Also, gotta say I'm with Monty on the Paladin. The reason why Treantmonk asked the group "who's going to play the paladin?" is that if a party didn't have +5 to all their saving throws and advantage on saving throws and immunity to fear, and went up against that sequence of encounters? They would have just died in that one-shot. Replacing the paladin with, say a Life Cleric would be a huge downgrade for that party, even if you homebrewed some improvements to life cleric to make them just as good of a striker and frontliner as a paladin. The damage and frontlining abilities were just not why the paladin was there (and I'm not convinced the paladin was the highest damage or the tankiest character in that party). For Paladin, the one thing I will say is that some of this power is very specific to 20th level one-shots, where you bring a 20th level paladin, and their aura is 30 feet so it covers the entire party, and the paladin got to bring a Holy Avenger (legendary rarity paladin weapon) and the aura on the Holy Avenger is also 30 feet at this level. Level 20 paladin with a Holy Avenger just provides more support than lower level paladins. Level 1-5? Paladin provides nowhere near that level of support; maybe B or C tier at levels 1-5. Levels 6-17, Paladins......are providing decent support, but their aura is only 10 feet, won't cover the whole party, maybe they haven't capped their CHA yet so it might only be +3, and the DM probably hasn't given them a holy avenger yet, so no advantage on saving throws. It's level 18-20 Paladin that has a Holy Avenger and 20 CHA where...making a party without one of those is simply a mistake.
Worth noting that druids get revivify if you use Tasha's optional rules. Not every DM does. So I think given that it's fair to consider them weaker at support than clerics (who also get raise dead when druids don't). That said I'd still give the druid an A.
I tend to fully agree about Artificers not being assessed for their real support capability. Alchemists are very good support because they can make a Healing Word or Mass Healing Word gain a bonus with Alchemical Savant equal to their Int mod, and never need to Cure Wounds except very rarely. They also bolster any of their useful Experimental Elixirs with a 2d6 + Int mod temp HP bonus at level 9 (which pairs well with Aid), and they'll never need to keep Lesser Restoration on their spells kept again. They get Gaseous Form, which is a wonderful rescue tool, when your allies are in a trouble spot or held in place by magic. Combining this with their base kit as a medium armored shield user with Aid, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility and of course, Haste is a pretty damn good support kit. Yeah, the other subclasses are less support-oriented, but I think they do a pretty reasonable job at filling a solid support niche like the Ranger would.
I'm playing a circle of the land druid and being able to dish out 40 points of healing from goodberry because we had a few days of downtime beforehand is massive. Revivify is optional or in the wildfire subclass and they get everything else you'd want already
@@seanedgar164 Goodberry healing only works for 24 hours after casting and requires an action to eat 1. I would say that Goodberry is more utility than support(removes the need for food and water while traveling).
Have you ever thought about letting your community vote for each role from first to last place to give more of a weighted perspective? Like this many people have cleric as there first place and then a majority of people have bards are druids as their second place option
But that could skewer the "best" slot. If some people consider Paladin 1st, but Bard 2nd and Druid 3rd, while others give Cleric 1st, Bard 2nd, and Wizard 3rd, Bard would overall be given 1st, as it was part of a top 3 more often. By keeping it simple with "who do you think is THE best", you need less consideration to where one class might be situationally better compared to another. The class that you think provides the most and best support, is the one you give the spot to.
Divine Soul is the absolute craziest battlefield medic / combat support role I've ever played. Twinning Death Ward and revivify, distant spell greater restoration, easily the most fun I've had with the role
I will say, I think instead of asking "who's the best at this role" in the polls, you'd get better results asking everyone to rank each class on a scale of 1-10.
My Circle of Dreams Druid was an insane support/utility combo. I know, just one class. Then you bragged on one class of paladin and how it's borderline S. Circle of Dreams Druid can heal two party members in one turn, or heal one and turn the other into an ape. Massive A+. Up there with Bard and Cleric.
Honestly I know they said they don't really count subclasses but druid's 4 of 7 subclasses are actually support subclasses, I feel like they should have considered that.
Bard is such a fun class to see in these as the *Second S Tier* in a few roles (and mayhaps a few more). Really shows why they excell in small Party Comps of 4 or less or how they can really lay on the hurt in larger party comps where they really get to just be whatever the f@ck they want and then some. It is a very strong and very versatile class But seriously, being second in something only to a Wizard and only to a Cleric in the positions the other two classes are picked for really highlights how powerful the Bard is in 5e. Being able to combine second best utility and second best support in a way the other two classes can't and have a lot of flexibility in how you combine them really makes the bard shine as the best *Mulit/Hybrid Role* Class in the game, that and being able to potentially cover for both a Missing Cleric and a Missing Wizard in a party of 1 to 4 members is amazing. And again, the ability to steal what should be exclusive Wizard Spells, Cleric Spells, or Paladin Spells is amazing Like, Imagine a Bard doing the Infinite Simulacrum combo by using wish and simulacrum to have as many as they want at once (of which Creation Bard is the best at it in the game due to making spell components for free). Imagine 1 Bard and 5 Bard Simulacrums with their regenerating Bardic Inspiration uses and their cracked out support and utility spell lists. Ever wanted to make sure a Boss had a 1d12 Saving Throw Penalty at all times? What about the absolutely absurd healing output, area control, and denial? Or each Creation Bard Simulacrum being able to have a Dancing Item *and* their own created items, and then all of their healing and support spells, the sh@t gets silly. But again even at low levels it really shines, even in a Party Comp with a Wizard and a Cleric it still shines. Like a Wizard, Valor Bard, Cleric combo is a really strong party comp as a three person party, but if you have Cleric Frontline instead of dual frontline with a Valor Bard, use a Lore or Eloquence Bard and just win
They heavily over-rated Bard in both support and utility. Bard has less support and utility than Wizard, Cleric and Druid because of the very limited cantrip and spell selection. I've never seen a Bard build in any of my games that's more effective than those 3 classes (and support is arguably worse than Paladin also).
@@Osmium2626 you likely saw the bard filling multiple roles. this is the question "if you focus on being the best you can be in this category, how good can you be?"
I think the fact that bard lost to cleric for support is nuts. bardic inspiration is THE defining characteristic of a support class. add a d6 (and pretty soon a d8) to an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw is HUGE for both in combat and out of combat support. it refreshes on a short rest and as a consequence is a plentiful resource. combine that with healing word for picking up downed allies, polymorph for healing almost dead allies (aka one of the most powerful healing/support spells in the game), faire fire for advantage on attack rolls, and things like guidance and bless and revivify only being a magical secret away, I just don't get it. yeah cleric can heal. but so can the bard. and on top of that the bard gets spells for easy advantage for party members, and an incredible buff to saving throws that can be STACKED with bless, spells that give advantage, and that paladin's aura. most clerics I know and have seen played eventually just go spiritual weapon/spirit guardians. the bards always mainline support and debuffing enemies. i have a soft spot for bard, and I also adore clerics. my two favorite classes, easy. but I just think the idea that a cleric is a better support character than a bard is nuts. bards are far better buffers than clerics.
I think the difference in views on the Paladin stems from more fundamental differences between higher optimization play and more traditional tables. The Paladin's Aura of Protection, especially when supported by bless, is so essential at more optimized tables because spell saves happen more and are more critical in this type of play. Most lower optimization combat encounters are much more focused on preventing death by damage because damage-based attacks are the primary feature of combat encounters at those tables. Sure, you may face a few saving throws, but the effects are rarely pivotal and the DCs are relatively low. Meanwhile, at more optimized tables, failing a saving throw may lead to one or multiple party members attacking each other, being rendered much less effective, or completely incapacitated/outright killed. This makes an extra +1d4+3 on those critical saves completely game changing at these sorts of tables. So honestly, the extent to which the Paladin is a good support class depends heavily on the kind of game your DM is running. If your DM is asking "Who's playing the paladin?", somebody should probably take 6 levels in Paladin. But Paladin players can take solace in the fact that, even if their auras doesn't make a huge difference at their table, they're still an amazing frontliner with excellent defenses, burst damage, and decent support and utility.
Druids are definitely high A, they have a great spell list that they can change every long rest. You definitely did monks dirty too, Way of mercy would like a word. And even other monks are definitely a C. Paladins are a B, they're way too m.a.d and are spread too thin. In *theory* they can do some cool support stuff, but then they'll suffer in other areas, their passive auras are what's holding them up. Wizards are a high B, Rangers a low B.
You do know these guys that I love is somewhat affected by Monty's hard take on this role as I dont think they ever mentioned Guidance or Enhance Ability
To be fair, if the paladin actually decides to cast a spell instead of using them to smite, 90% of their spells overlap with clerics, while also getting unique buff spells and skills clerics don't.
The monk should be a C due to the Way of Mercy subclass. It makes for a good secondary support that can get rid of negative status effects and provide a bit of healing.
The wizard really isn't as good of a support class as people think. Sure, it has some good support spells, but that's all. Rangers not only have some good support spells as well, including healing, but they also have some good support features that don't rely on spells. I'd rank wizard and ranger about equal for support. The druid, however, is probably A tier. Again, not only does it have some great support spells, some of the best that even clerics don't get, but they have other features that support, too.
This was a really good video with lively back and forth discussion. I tend to pick the support/utility role in any given party, so I usually play a cleric or druid. I definitely need to try out bard, because I have the annoying habit of bursting into song out of the blue; at least then I'd be giving folks inspiration!
I think I would have been a less “selfish” Artificer if my DM would have given me magic items or at least let me make them. Mine literally said I would be unable to make magic items even at 20th level. Yeah, I was pissed. Had a tough character but it was not what I wanted at the time and took my heart out of the end of the campaign as my Artificer came into the game at really high levels after over 3 years of play.
Isn’t making magic items like a core feature of the artificer? I’d be pissed too. That’s like telling a Cleric they can’t use channel divinity or telling a Druid they can’t wildshape.
Dungeon Dudes, can you make a tier list ranking the classes on which would make the best single mono class party. I know that a party consisting of one class is ridiculous but I think it would be fun!
As a druid main I highly disagree with the B ranking for them. Druid has access to several healing spells and other support options, as well as, like the Cleric can pick and choose spells per situation. They are no cleric but I think they are among the top 3 support classes when I think support in D&D 5e. Just because one subclass doesn't fully go down the support tree for druid doesn't mean that it isn't a support class. There are Cleric and bard subclasses that don't strictly go support but doesn't mean their built in spells and abilities don't make them a great support class.
Insane to me that Druid isn’t an A tier, yes sure you would have to build towards it but you get basically every single great support spell on a prepared spell list. Except things like aid and bless There are more Druid support subclasses then there are… moon druids hahah
I might be biased because I made myself a beast of a supporter character (granted I took 2 levels in twilight cleric and my dm let me learn the spell aid), but before I even multiclassed I was still aMAZing support
@@alexadavis8558 One could also choose a lore bard instead of eloquence bard to get magical secrets at 6th level if your party doesn't have anyone who can cast counterspell and revivify. Counterspell and revivify are clearly the 2 best choices for a lore bard's magical secrets, unless your character is obsessed with getting fireball.
@@davea6314 I hadn't thought of that! Sadly I'm trying to balance being the party's #1 Support, Utility AND Face, so I wanted to get that sweet 3rd level Eloquence ability for social encounters. I'll probably be going 5th level Cleric for Revivify next level cause the threats are getting graver now (currently a Cleric 4/Bard 3)
Love the D4 Medic Rogue shoutout! I have in the back of my mind a Thieves' Guild/Oops All Rogues campaign or oneshot and that guy is key to making it happen.
I don't understand what about wizard screams support here. I think most of the spells they're thinking of are utility not support. Like wizard support spells are Life transference and certain buffs like silvery barbs, gift of alacrity, polymorph and haste. A lot of their spells that are buffs are utility buffs like fly or invisibility. When I compare druid or wizard for support I certainly see druid win no contest. I also don't see how wizard beats sorcerer since they largely get the same spell options for support but sorcerer has better subclass options and metamagic for it.
Dagger-in-the-heart take, druid A wizard B cause druids can swap out their spell list pretty much at will, and a wizard is reliant on their DM giving them access to spells they didnt choose to directly take on level up.
THIS! Wizards don't even have Cure! Wizards don't have the spell versatility, or a single 1st-level spell that reads as support except... Longstrider?! You have to wait until you cast 2nd level spells to begin being support?! BAD ranking.
Goodberry is the best support spell in the game. A first level spell which can be cast the day before let's your entire party be able to to bring someone back from zero hit points. ( as long as you share them out) If your fighting a flying enemy now the barbarian can become a support class by holding the goodberries. No wizard spell can turn someone else into a support class
I think it really comes down to whether your party can survive with one class as their dedicated support. I think the Druid does a far better job than the paladin does for that role. And if the paladin isn't on the front lines, just running around patching people, you're gonna be in a bad spot
I have to say that I do believe the Ranger is as good as a Wizard at support. Because they're both not primarily support. A wizard and a ranger both bring utility, yet a ranger also has healing spirit and goodberry. I'm biased towards Rangers, I must admit, but I wanted to make my case about them.
About artificers: If I were to play an artificer, I would most likely be an artillerist or ranged armourer because that way you can buff up the rest while remaining safely away from melee. 14:15 I thought Bard 1 Cleric 2 Guidance is good, but bardic inspiration is better. They both get healing word, aid and lots of others, clerics get bless and bards get faerie fire. But whereas a cleric will suddenly start going into the 'spiritual weapon' and 'spirit guardians' around level 5, a bard will always be that support/utility guy, more so then the cleric imo. 16:04 dispell magic and raise dead are both considered utility, not support.
While Paladin is amazing, I feel like level should have been a factor in the rating. A Paladin's Aura is unarguably a great support feature, but it only comes online at lvl 6 for out to 10ft. Extra auras not until 7. So for lvls 1-5, you aren't getting that buff. And if your squishy wizard wants that plus to their saving throw, they need to stand within 15ft of the frontline to get the Paladin's Aura buff until lvl 18 when it's 30ft. While is is true for all classes that their abilities improve as levels increase, I think a Paladin's role as a Support member increases exponentially vs a Cleric/Druid/Bard where it's just about spell lvl, making it more a linear progression. A Paladin won't have an aura buff to maintain concentration on a Bless spell so unless they take a feat when (in all likelihood) they are at the front line exchanging blows, there is a higher probability that they will lose concentration on that buff, vs a class like Druid/Bard that aren't trying to hold a Frontline + Support role simultaneously. So I think Kelly was more correct trying to weigh it between A-B, rather than a S- defaulting to A. You'll feel like a great *passive* Support player when you get to those higher levels of Paladin, but for a large amount of game play (looking at games running lvl 1-8), you are likely just going to be running up to tank hits and using those precious spell slots to explode Smite damage rather than *focusing* buffing your party.
@@CrownlessStudios IME 99% of Lay On Hands is spend by the Paladin on themselves to keep them standing on the front lines. It's a good feature and can be good support but most of the time is not.
I feel like paladin is B purely because while they are a great secondary healer if my partys only support character is a paladin I am WORRIED for are partys survival. They are great at the support they can provide but they are a beatdown and a frontliner before they are a support character and simply do not have the resources to be your partys primary healer/support.
Orym of CR is a great example the difference between Utility and Support in the DD categories. As a Battle Master Fighter, he dances around the fight, changing the field, and puts people in better situations. He constantly prevents their enemies from getting shots at the squishier party members. But all of those are more Utility, in DD categories, than Support, because while he's putting his teammates in better situations he doesn't directly make their numbers bigger.
Glad for the paladin love! Aura of Protection saved our monk from disintegration. Straight up, he was like 2-3 from making the save, he did not have the HP to survive it because we were getting stomped on and I was out of Lay on Hands, then I went "Wait, he's within 10 feet of me." I will never let him forget that.
I played a Battle Smith Artificer and while it definitely opens up a frontline playstyle, you can't go in half way, you don't have the AC or hitpoints to really tank in the conventional way. Against low level enemies in very specific circumstances you can push the front line in lock step with your Steel Defender, but especially against bosses you're just too fragile. Twice I did tank against a boss ... one single hit, because both nearly downed me in a single shot while our Paladin and Druids stuck it out on the front line. But put your Steel Defender in position to defend your Wizard or your Paladin, and now we're talking. Plus that gives you a ton of Arcane Jolt coverage to heal your party with. You also get a lot of cheeky options with your Spell Storing Item. Sure Invisibility and Enhance Ability have great utility, but have you ever considered how annoying Shield or Sanctuary would be for the DM?
What do you mean by battle Smith not having AC, it's one of the easiest chassis to reach high AC in 5e. You are one behind armorer but with shield spell and imposing disadvantage in one attack. It's effectively a very high AC with +1 or +2 infusions on the shield and armor. My battle Smith tank was very durable and Kelly played a battle Smith with very high AC too in the game with d4 and treantmonk. I don't think it's the best tank out there especially because of medium HP and lacking a mechanic like rage, but AC is definitely not the issue.
@@PedroHISilva Absolutely they *can* have AC, but it takes a bunch of your infusions to get there. And probably at least the war caster feat. You can't do it halfway, you can't tank on weekends, you have to go into a fight prepared to tank. And you're therefore giving up some of your support and utility tools.
@@rafis117 why warcaster when artificers don't need free hands to cast artificer spells and already have CON proficiencies? Repulsion shield is anyway a good infusion for tanks and even my offensive artificer had AC-boosting infusions among their options. Every PC has to go through some trade offs, but this is not even among the most difficulty ones. On top of that, steel defender and shield spells are available. Effective HP of a battle Smith is increased by using wisely the defender, plus deflection. Sincerely, saying that battle Smith artificers have poor AC when a lot of builds have high AC is just wrong. Of course you can do whatever you want and even run a naked battlesmith, but multiple people play high AC battlesmiths. BS artificer was even chosen as a tank to play in a highly optimised table in the example I mentioned with D4, treantmonk and dudes. It's like saying that fighters have low ACs because their archer builds have low ACs.
On the Paladin as Support... in addition to Lay on Hands, consider Cleansing Touch: ends one spell on yourself or another creature that you touch. Any spell. [CHA] times a day. End the enemy's buff or a debuff on an ally/yourself. The only way (probably) to make this better would be to make it a legendary resistance/action.
Here’s where I think Paladin was mistakenly rated as the ‘S-Tier’ frontline. Aura of Protection and Lay on Hands were mentioned as factors that pushed them over the Barbarian in that video. I thought so then, and I think so now: those are support abilities.
a paladin using lay on hands for themselves is frontlining, using it on others is support, and then aura of protection is both since it bolsters the paladin against enemy abilities (frontlining) and also giving that bonus to close allies(support)
that case is a good example of overlap in roles. Just like polymorph can be support and utility depending of the context. Lay on hands is support for sure, but you have to factor in the range (touch) and fact that paladins are mostly hanging on the frontline.
As a wizard who wants to support: Play a divination wizard halfling with the lucky feat. Then pick as a feat at early levels artificer adept for guidance and Cure wounds. Get wither and bloom at lvl 3 and be a Hit dice healing Portent lucky person.
Alternately, An Abjuration Wizard with Artificer Initiate can grab Spare the Dying, Cure Wounds, and a tool of choice, then when Projected Ward comes online for them at 6th level, they become excellent damage mitigators (which is equivalent to healing). Take Flock of Familiars to give you and your allies advantage on multiple targets. That's pretty good support.
@@biggriz2690 "You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours. If more than one creature spends a luck point to influence the outcome of a roll, the points cancel each other out; no additional dice are rolled." Lucky feat is useful for that, too.
@@TheDreamburner yeah, more meaning that it hasn't really helped me support others, besides keeping me alive of course (just there's plenty of feats which can help with that).
I generally agree when they say that ranger is a true "jack of all trades, master of none" but I think that applies more to the base class. Rangers, possibly more than any other class, rely upon their subclass to boost their abilities: Beast Master (Tasha's) & Drakewarden are a great mix of Frontliners, Beatdown, and Infiltrators/Explorers thanks to their companion's variety of roles. Gloomstalker is one of the best Beatdowns in 5e for obvious reasons and has great Infiltrator/Explorer and Utility use too. Swarmkeeper is a fantastic Utility thanks to their swarm's battlefield control/extended spell list and ability to fly which also makes them solid Infiltrator/Explorers (they may also have some Frontliner potential from their swarms free disengage and later boost to AC but idk). Feywanderer is possibly the best Negotiator in 5e, and later (because of their enhanced Misty Step) becomes a great Infiltrator/Explorer and Support too. Hunter and Horizon Walker are a bit more controversial, but even they are solid Beat Downs, with the latter also having some Infiltrator/Explorer and Utility potential. edit: spelling, and changed my mind on Swarmkeepers as Support/Frontliners
I would say that Hunters can be pretty good frontliners with the alternate options. Hordebreaker(3) gives you an extra attack on each of your turns(no bonus action or action required), as long as there is an enemy within 5 feet of your original target(and within weapon range). With Polearm Master, that is 4 attacks per round at level 5, and it is excellent for focusing down a big baddie while also removing nearby minions. Some of your spells provide good battlefield control and mobility to get where you are needed. Multiattack Defense(7) gives you a +4 AC against a creature after it's first hit(more tanky vs multi-attack creatures). Whirlwind Attack(11) sacrifices 1 attack to hit all nearby enemis(which will still trigger Hordebreaker and allows for an attack with your bonus Action). At level 15, all options could be viable. Some provide damage mitigation, others extra damage. The biggest issue is staying power. Tireless(10) can provide a bit of temporary hit points at the opening of a fight. Nature's Veil(10) lets you use your bonus action to become invisible(disadvantage on attack rolls against you) until the start of your next turn(it does not end if you attack or cast a spell). Both are tied to your Proficiency bonus. This could mean that you go for Ranger 16, Monk 4(going naked at level 17).
@@fendelphi Great point, I do wish Hunters were given more abilities like every other subclass after the PHB but they are still incredibly underrated, especially now thanks to Tasha's optional rules.
I have played Cleric consistently since the early 90s, and in computer games that do not even have the class I do it anyway. It fits my actual personality well. Even if I am not religious in the slightest I am insightful at resolving social and emotional complexities, struggles and conflicts. As cleric I am usually the main solid tank, without dps, prioritizing a huge shield and satisfied with a simple mace. I make sure my friends can do the damage, controlling the battle to adjust it for the party's advantage. I often end up also the main face and the party leader, if not the secondary. I give the party a meaning and a purpose, elevating the morale of each member in the party. I want my friends to excel at what they are good at, while I have their backs and help them through distractions.
Paladins can be a lot of fun in a more supportive role. Their aura is very powerful as is, then they can be emergency medic, they can do some control with feats and the right weapon, and they can still cast support spells. They will probably need to take a concentration feat to be sure to hold onto concentration though, and their low spell slot supply and limited spell list does keep them from feeling quite like a dedicated support.
Lay on Hands and Aura of Protection make a Paladin at least as good as an Artificer for Support, and then you add in spells on top of that? Easily an A, IMO.
@@CrownlessStudios Agreed, Artificer is more battlefield control IMO, but can definitely be support if you really try. Paladin is easily better than them if you have a Paladin player that wants to be more than a smite machine. However, in both cases I feel like their at the table they generally don't live up to their potential for support because players often prefer to lean into the selfish builds.
When I played Out of the Abyss, our artificer gave my paladin/warlock a +2 shield. I had a 24 ish AC with the ability to cast shield. +1 plate, +2 shield, can't remember if I had a cloak of protection, ring of protection, or both. But damn was I a good tank. He helped tremendously
If the Wizard is better support than a Ranger then I'll eat my wizard hat. I'm a wizard main. I love wizard. It's my favorite class. Rangers and Druids outclass the wizard with Support every single day. Good berry? Healing word. Aid. Absolutely not. No, the wizard is worse. I won't take criticism here. I love my fellow book lovers but you're a fool if you think you're better at keeping a party alive than a druid or a ranger.
Speaking as a moon Druid packing enhance ability, pass without trace, guidance, and several healing options, it’s definitely an A rank, regardless of subclass.
That’s one subclass. A B is a class that has one or two really good subclasses, but not much else. I disagree with the Wizard rating, but sorcerer fits perfectly
Close. They should review each video with their definition. Utility actually gives the party NEW tools. The Wizard was their S ranked utility class. Their list of spells is very impressive.
Support improves what everyone already has. Everyone has hit points. Everyone has an AC. Everyone has an attack roll. Everyone can already see (hopefully)
"Wizard and ranger are not equal." I mean, I think it's really important to think about what spells these characters will actually have available for use and be able to cast. You're nuts if you don't know Cure Wounds on your ranger, and Pass Without Trace. The latter is going to be such a huge support in key moments, and the former isn't going to make the ranger a main healer but is going to prevent dying party members from having to make death saves, or could bring back important NPCs or party members that are needed during a combat. The wizard is unlikely to have anything prepared that's going to do those sorts of things when they're needed, and is going to be using concentration for utility nine times out of ten. I love wizards and think they're truly excellent at what they do, but I really don't see that role being "support" unless you specifically build them that way. The ranger is going to be doing some basic support with any build.
I feel like you guys really skipped over the druid here. Goodberry juggling is one of the largest bursts of healing I've seen in lower level play. They get healing word, cure wounds and lesser restoration. The only fault I see is the lack of revivify and temporary hp, which druid subclasses have access to
I vehemently disagree that the artificer should be mandated to hand over their infusions to "support the party"! Yeah, you could give the +1 shield infusion to give the paladin who already has an absurdly high AC an even more absurdly high AC. OR you can let the Artificer keep their infusion, and it makes them a decent secondary frontliner. Artificer Infusions is the Artificer features... You know instead of getting even more features like paladins or rangers, Artificer get those extra magic items which allows them to shine.
Usually I agree more with Monty, but here Kelly is 100% right about the Paladin. Paladins are your co-supporter. Right now I'm DMing for a group that has a Paladin, a Twilight Domain Cleric and a Druid. Paladin comes third on the "support" role here, not even close. And the Cleric is #1, not even close to the druid. Even though I love Bards in 5e, it's my favorite class, I think in terms of support they are #2.
I feel that while Paladins are amazing at support, most of the support aspects of the class come from their cleric spell list; the auras, while powerful, don’t outrank the plethora of cleric healing spell slots. So if you are going to say that the paladin is an amazing support class, why would you rank it better than the cleric?
I think the Purple Dragon Knight was the closest to a focused Support geared Fighter.... however that class failed so badly at it that it's embarrassing. I mean wasn't that kind of the idea for it, to be in the middle of the fight and giving bonuses to other players and also tanking blows? Everyone was so upset with the Ranger and wanting the Revised Ranger to be confirmed that the PDK fighter was just sort of forgotten about
I'd say that base class artificer is the S tier support but once you add the subclass it drops down to an A, but otherwise I agree with kelly on this I gave my S tier to cleric
Heh, not a spoiler. Cleric was definitely my pick, but could have been convinced Bard was better, especially if the spells lined up. Bardic inspiration is incredibly powerful. Edit: Awwww, man, the Ranger aren't going to get any love are they. :(
The problem with the Bard is exactly as you stated. It's a massive mix of utility and support. They don't specialize one way or the other. They perform both very well. Not the best.. but very well. Cleric is definitely S tier. They have so much support that it's ridiculous. Twilight clerics alone are enough to make DM's want to kill them immediately after your first combat. When you can use Twilight Sanctuary and still concentrate on a spell.. that's busted.. I mean.. really really busted. Add in the fact that they can deal decent damage while supporting your allies and they become the literal god tier of support. Imagine being able to pop off Spirit Guardians.. and just wander around the battlefield.. dodging attacks while dealing decent damage and slowing enemies. Maybe toss out a heal.. or Spiritual weapon for a little additional bonking... or restore an ally.. or use an action to use a healing kit with the Healer feat and just use an action to heal someone IN combat.. you just.. walk up to them.. Spectral Guardians smashing enemies...and use an action to use a healers kit for a sick heal, while Twilight Sanctuary buffers them with temporary hit points..... support much???
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I like how they spend 5 minutes debating what qualifies as support and utility, and why a utility class isn't a support class, only for Monty to call the Wizard an A tier support class for having great utility lol
Even better they cluelessly gave the Artificer an A for its utility.
yeah, they keep saying they are seperating them, and then merges them together. the Paladin is definitely no where near an A for support.
The dudes are just heavily biased towards wizards. A lot of the internet is because "lol wish spell". Almost no one is actually playing at a high enough lv to use the spell. I could stomach (barely) them giving the S to the wizard in utility but the wizard isn't a support. The wizard is such an overrated class.
@@jamesbolt1003 wizard still have haste and stone skin, and it is simply the most flexible caster in the game
@@adaelion3772 i actually agree with paladin being A tier support... they get plenty of healing, especially the higher level they get, they can end the more common conditions with lay on hands, and their auras are probably the best support ability in the game.
Honestly the "who's going to play the paladin" question is valid. Like when I was picking a character for Curse of Strahd and found out we had NO healing and very little support (evocation wizard and Assassin rogue) I grabbed paladin, not cleric. I needed the hit point buffer and being able to stay up longer and make concentration checks (that +3 to saves bonus is AMAZING) is what takes paladin over most other classes when it comes to support I think. Built in passive support that I don't need to concentrate on is insanely good. Pair that with Satyr where you get advantage on all saves against spells and magical effects and your ability to make saves goes through the roof.
It is DEF not better than the cleric or bard. But I'd say a passive support ability is still support and paladins just come built with passive ability that as long as they are conscious, enemies can shut off.
I think one issue I have with these videos is the hyper focus on spell lists without looking at the subclass abilities. I know not all work the same but looking at their overall function you can get/give a better perspective
Baffled that Druid got a B from Monty. I came into this thinking it had a shot to win it… I truly feel like Bard is being overestimated in some categories here, like it doesn’t have enough spells known to get the number of prepared healing that Druids can offer. There’s also a number of Druid subclasses that go S-tier in support (Shepherd, Dreams, Stars, Wildfire)
The Bard gets between 22 and 24 spells known in total(unless I overlooked something), so personally I do not think they lack spells known.
They do also get Song of Rest, which is surprisingly potent over the course of an adventure day(not to mention, a full campaign).
Also, they get a lot of spells and effects that support the party outside of just healing.
They are definately A-tier. But so are Druids in my opinion.
Same. I play a Stars Druid in my Witchlight game and she has wild ability to support her team.
@@fendelphi Indeed, the Bard certainly deserves an A here, just like it did in Utility. But I’m not agreeing with Monty’s logic - he’s spending a lot of time focusing on Faerie Fire and Moon Druids, as if those are the two defining traits of a Druid. Not everyone plays Moon, and over half of the subclasses do go deeper in on support. Faerie Fire is one spell in a big list and while they don’t have all the healing options of a cleric, they have a lot more crowd control which fits the bill of Support I think. A+ for me, and I do think it edges Bard out because of the prepared list.
@@BoPeep_42 I cant really see one being "better support" over the other. Bardic Inspiration is such a versatile multi-tool, allowing it to be used offensively or defensively, while still being able to cast spells in the same turn. And they can get the "best support spells" from other classes with Magical Secrets.
The Druid's spell list is more geared toward support, and can better prepare for an encounter if you have prior knowledge(which I do find very powerful), but the Druid's overall base features does not really allow more than 1 support action(usually a spell) per turn. You need certain subclasses to go beyond that(but then they also get really good at it, for sure).
The Bard comes with that "second support action" in the base package(Bardic Inspiration), which is probably why a lot of people prefer it over the Druid when categorizing "best support". Vanilla Bards can simply respond more rapidly during a crisis, while many other classes require specific subclasses.
Everyone seems to forget that Alchemist Artificers can use a spell slot to create an elixir from their list that *isn't random.* Unfortunately, the elixirs don't get better or more numerous with higher level spell slots. But for level 1 slots, almost every option on the list is a better support effect than almost anything you can cast normally.
To put it in short:
*Support* is *making your party better* at what they're already good at, helping where they may not be so great, and making sure things run smoothly.
*Utility* is granting your party access to *new tools* in the party toolbox to help or solve problems.
Before I watch the video, I like to make my own guess. Now the difficult part is, I believe both Cleric and Bard to be the best support class in the game, with the healings and buff that they have and can give to their party, it's hard for me to pick which if the two would out perform the other.
These last two video discussions on the Bard really highlight why I think it's the best single class in the game. Every party needs a glue guy, and the Bard is kind of the ultimate glue guy. If you need something done the Bard can do it.
I totally agree with the fighter absolutely not being a supportive role, but I think an interesting look at what they CAN do to support the party is what Liam is doing in C3 with his fighter. Bait and Switch and Goading attacks are absolutely frontline abilities, but they also do have a supportive aspect, especially when it comes to getting the attention off of a party member in trouble and giving them a buff or making it harder for an enemy to go after them. And that has to do with how he role plays that character, but it’s still a subversive look at how a front liner can absolutely support their party with battlefield tactics.
I think of utility as providing new tools to the party, while support is improving the tools the party already has.
Moon druid is quite nice support / utility because it is using diffrent resources for fight and supporting. Moon druid need jest 1-2 damage/controll spells per fight then can prepace and use majority of its spellcasting to help party.
"If you pair a bard and a rogue, its outstanding"
*on the trail we blaze plays in the background*
"Wizards don't have a single _real_ healing spell on their list, and I don't know if there is any way to change that."
I will say it: Life Transference is _great_ healing option when you're standing cosily at the back of the battlefield just hurling Fireballs, but you see someone in your party who's vital to keep you together intact (so anyone who has access to healing spells) barely alive. From the smorgasbord of Wizard's 3rd level spells (Fireball, Counterspell, Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly, etc), it might be the least likely pick, but it helps!
Self-healing spells though… man, I am so salty that Vampiric Touch is eh and Enervation is just a bit overglorified Witch Bolt.
(other) Ways to get _reliable_ healing as a Wizard? Starting with a level in Artificer (there's more to that than Guidance and Cure Wounds), grabbing Artificer Initiate and getting the two aforementioned spells, or grabbing Fizban's Gift of the Metallic Dragon.
Furthermore, Eberron's Mark of Healing Halfling makes _any_ spellcaster able to get a few healing spells (Divination Wizard heavily recommended - Portent counts as both support and utility!). Pair that with a level of Life Cleric (or even Artificer) and you might be a better healer than the rest of 'em! This is of course setting-restricted, but…
Your best (and easiest) bet is tossing a few healing potions onto your familiar though.
Love the content y'all making, just spammed watching like 8 of your videos. Was wondering if y'all could do a video on how to make a dread knight or something, like a paladin to Orchest, being an unholy paladin
So got a couple of years as an Artificer Player now at various levels. I'd suggest that the Dudes reevaluate the Artificer. Monty's biggest point was "Artificer Players tend to be selfish with their Infusions", but no other class was looked at from the Player lense. In my own games games I've vary rarely seen a Cleric actually fill the support role. Should Player style for Clerics be used to reflect the class' ability to be an S Tier Support? No.
The Artificer is an A+ Support character when looked through the objective lense on the Class' ability to buff the party. It's the only Class I know of that can raise ability scores....
Under 'Unearthed Arcana' you get a much better wupport sub-class option for the Wizard class - The "Theurgist" - Bisically a Wizrd who gets access to 'Cleric domains' instead of their normal 'schools of magic' - but still have access to all the basic non-specialization Wizard spells.
We try to avoid talking about Unearthed Arcana in our video guides and rankings since it's playtest material subject to change (and sometimes it just gets scrapped from further development entirely). If it makes it into a published sourcebook, we'll definitely discuss it though!
@@DungeonDudes I actually think there is enough material in UA that you guys could easily do a video on 'UA stuff that should be made canon (because its already pretty close to game-ready)'
What's the best support class, and which kind of cleric exactly?
As a rogue main, the hardest balancing act of the class is to justify not tackling most problems alone. It's not at all a support class because it's built around being better alone at anything that is not a head on fight.
Honestly, if a Battle Smith just uses Repeating Shot on a Musket or Heavy Crossbow, they can contribute just fine, and give the rest of their infusions to party members.
I think that rangers are just generally underestimated. Just waiting for the damage dealer video now
Order Domain Cleric 1, Clockwork Sorcerer 19
Give an ally a free attack as a reaction whenever you target them with a 1st level or higher spell.
Hey dudes, wanted to let you know my drakkenheim book just arrived. Looks great!
“Can I get an amen?” Had me bustin out laughing
Monti's gotta apologize to the Rangers, because the survival element of support was totally thrown away. I know not every table plays with food rules, but no other class can provide food and shelter without a spell slot. Roleplay support HAS to count too. This can apply to monks and druids as well
Hold fast on the ranger!! They can cast haste in some sub classes and can heal!!!
now I'm wondering how my monk/rouge nearly died (even with deus ex machina magic bat healing her five times) when the other five party members were a teir classes and one c teir...
I am having trouble seeing Wizard as a support class. They get haste, but what other spell do they get that is support really?
Monk deserves a bump; way of mercy provides options for recovery and resolving situations, and refreshes on a short rest, so C tier for monk with way of monk a B tier in your ranking system.
31:33 If you pair a rogue and a bard, you get "The Road to El Dorado."
Yeah those two could totally solo an adventure!
I'm in a party where we have a Bard, a Druid, a Cleric, and a Rogue....
“It’s tough to be a god”
Or just go multiclass into both. It's fun.
My arcane trickster is named Rado, and his brother (a bard) is named Eldo. It’s a lot of fun.
Druid here. I always save Polymorph for my team when they are down to ~10 hp and let them GRAPE APE SMASH. Best "healing" spell in the game.
Mechanically it’s better to polymorph at the beginning of the fight.
@@jimmyreinstein9993 ya but people want to actually use their class instead of just being turned into something else every fight
Sorcerer with Polymorph and Twinned Spell is a great heal tactic.
@@jimmyreinstein9993 I'm pretty sure the Wizard you turn into an Ape before their turn would disagree when they can't cast spells all encounter.
Idk about that. If your concentration is broken or an enemy caster casts Dispel Magic, your friend is mortal danger.
I like the idea of twinning Polymorph as a sorcerer. I do the same with Haste.
When I think of the distinction between support and utility, I think that support is helping teammates be better or healing type spells. When I think of Utility, I think of the ability to solve problems for the party, whether it’s a locked door, a chasm, a puzzle, sneaking, understanding languages, etc.
So, what i get from this is that support is most from combat and utility out of combat, right?
@@Rellyks pretty much
I think of support as aid, they're the characters who are buffing and debuffing, trying to heal their comrades, and create openings for the damage dealers. Utility to me is more out-of-combat how can we get out of this, thinking outside the box, rule-bending characters. To me, support is like an instant aid and utility is more of a multi-step, trust the process aid.
Support characters effect creatures and living things more than Utility and Utility effects the environment rather than directly effecting creatures.
@@Rellyks Utility and support can both be utilised in and out of combat.
Battlefield control is combat utility. Long term buffs are non combat support.
Barbarian are great supporter. They are awesome at preventing dmg to your party (by killing everyone quickly) and they are great at conversation (by ending them quickly with killing).
Storm herald and wild magic subclasses have supportive element
@@drepruitt6780 Ancestral Guardian only works by being supportive. The abilities don't work for itself.
@@BenTheFool tundra actively adds temp hp to you and allies and the whole subclass allows the sharing of resistances like fire, thunder, and cold. Though out of curiosity, what does ancestral guardian do? I haven't looked into it my self. I only mentioned the ones I did because I was familiar with those abilities
@@drepruitt6780 initial ability forces disadvantage on attacks by a creature you've struck of they go to anyone but you. Then their spirit shield at 6 reduces damage on allies (which at 14 turns into damage reversed on the attacking creature).
@@BenTheFool alright, you've made your case and won me over. Thanks for teaching me this.
Some of the cleric subclass features are just insane. I am currently playing a Grave Domain Cleric, and I have saved multiple members of the party, including myself, from instant death with the Sentinel at Death's Door feat. Undoing crits is insanely powerful
and the distance spare the dying, icing on the cake
I did a 2 level dip to Wiz Diviner. Who can make the Sun Rise...
Problem is there are now a lot of characters that can stop crits if silvery barbs is allowed. Kinda stepped on the Grave clerics toes a bit.
Yeah even a war domain cleric is an amazing support that's why they get the S
@@adarian tbf balance isn't really the goal but that spell should absolutely be second level I don't know what drugs WOTC are on but I want it
If you're giving the artificer an A, I don't understand how you can rank the Druid lower than that? Especially if the argument for it is "Moon Druids won't really be supporting the party." Okay, well, what about Shepherd? Dreams? Stars? Heck, even Wildfire! Most of the druids subclasses have features that are tweaked towards enhancing their support abilities -- (or at the very least, their healing abilities).
Also, when it comes to Bless vs. Faerie Fire, while I think that Bless wins out a bit and has more benefits, I also really think it depends on the size of your party. I frequently play in groups of 5-6+ people and usually play a spellcaster, so when it comes time for the Cleric to cast Bless, the backline is usually not getting it, and I've found that Clerics will be a little reluctant to spend spell slots higher than 1st or maybe 2nd level to bless more than 3/4 people. When you cast Faerie Fire though (and it lands), that's a straight up buff for everyone, regardless of positioning or party size. And it's useful at all stages of the game. In smaller parties though where everyone can get the benefits of Bless easier, or you have a Peace Cleric in the party to double the amount of people you can bless, then yeah I'd probably say its a little better. Especially since it doesn't require a saving throw.
Druids kinda lose out on healing a bit, I say that because they don't really get too many of the Cleric's really nice, higher level healing spells -- specifically mass heal. However, Druids can easily compete with Cleric for the main healer role. In fact I'm going to make a bold statement and say that I think that Shepherd, Stars, and maybe even Dreams are better healers than most clerics besides Life. (I'm not counting the Twilight Druid because temp hp isn't the same as healing). Druids do also get Polymorph, (which is somehow a better healing spell then most healing spells.)
On top of this, Druids can still remove your curses, resurrect party members, keep people healthy in and out of combat, cast spells like protection from evil & good / protection from energy, freedom of movement, get spells like enhance ability & pass without trace, and just like the cleric, they can swap these spells out each day. Furthermore, if battlefield control is one of the metrics by which you rank a class' ability to support, then Druid beats the Cleric by a country mile.
I can still concede that the Druid's spell list loses out just a little bit when it comes to Cleric as far as support goes, but its not so far behind that it should get anything lower than an A, especially if its competing with artificer for the same spot.
I cannot wrap my head around how Druid could get anything less than an A ranking. They don’t match the Cleric’s spell list but they come very close and while Moon Druid pushes you away form support, almost every other subclass brings in more support features.
The problem with druid is that you're doing so many things, that it's hard to focus on one role.
I tend to agree with you, because the Druid is such a Swiss Army Knife, and it needs a Subclass to actually narrow it down and make it do something more limited. Druids are good support on their own, yet some of the subclasses definitely excel at it. Likewise for frontlining, magical damage, utility, infiltration and exploration. BUT, the Druid deserves credit for thing they didn't think of: GRASSLAND DRUIDS GET ALL THAT SUPPORT PLUS HASTE!!!
I played a 1 thru 20 campaign with only a Mountain Druid filling the support role, and I never felt like we were missing out.
The point I would make in addition to the prepared spell list is that the limited number of spells the bard has means it has to pick and choose and because it is so great at utility it is often going to skip some support spells that the cleric either will have or will be able to get in 8 hours. Also druid is awesome at support bringing the normal ones plus faerie fire support spells.
They totally match the cleric, the dont have bless but goodberry and pass without trace are way better anyway
I think an interesting follow up video once you’ve covered all the roles would be to do a pseudo review, but looked at how well each class performs every role. “The artificer gets a B for front lining, A for support…” etc. would be interesting to have all of your rankings for the class on one page and discuss the findings.
Second
This would be very cool. Almost like a class scorecard review
Yes! Like, druid is one of my favorite classes and it definitely won't win S in any categories but it comes up as high A in multiple which just refects versatility imo.
Yes, please
@@UmbraKrameri Druid could easily be S in exploration infiltration or utility.
Kelly looks like he's been getting some sun. Monty, he's making you look pale!
I read this comment while the ads were running which made the beginning of the video hilarious.
I just saw him tweet about relaxing in the sun after months in the basement, writing, and then I put on this video and I was like, “Yup, he wasn’t kidding.”
I think if Artificer is A, Druid should probably be A as well. "Well if they play a moon druid and cast conjure animals they're not doing much support" is true, but you could say the same thing about "If an artificer uses all their infusions on themselves they're not doing much support".
Druids even have some advantages over Bards as far as full caster support goes. Druid is a full spellcaster that gets revivify at 5th level. Bards don't even get a revival spell until 9th level with raise dead. Similarly, Druid gets guidance--fantastic support cantrip. Bards don't get guidance. Also, Druids at night get to dump all their unused spell slots into Goodberry; Bards don't get Goodberry. (not to say Druid is better support than Bard, but it just shows how Druid is really not that far behind Bard and actually has some advantages over Bard. If Bard is A++, Druid should be able to sneak in at A).
Also, gotta say I'm with Monty on the Paladin. The reason why Treantmonk asked the group "who's going to play the paladin?" is that if a party didn't have +5 to all their saving throws and advantage on saving throws and immunity to fear, and went up against that sequence of encounters? They would have just died in that one-shot. Replacing the paladin with, say a Life Cleric would be a huge downgrade for that party, even if you homebrewed some improvements to life cleric to make them just as good of a striker and frontliner as a paladin. The damage and frontlining abilities were just not why the paladin was there (and I'm not convinced the paladin was the highest damage or the tankiest character in that party).
For Paladin, the one thing I will say is that some of this power is very specific to 20th level one-shots, where you bring a 20th level paladin, and their aura is 30 feet so it covers the entire party, and the paladin got to bring a Holy Avenger (legendary rarity paladin weapon) and the aura on the Holy Avenger is also 30 feet at this level. Level 20 paladin with a Holy Avenger just provides more support than lower level paladins.
Level 1-5? Paladin provides nowhere near that level of support; maybe B or C tier at levels 1-5. Levels 6-17, Paladins......are providing decent support, but their aura is only 10 feet, won't cover the whole party, maybe they haven't capped their CHA yet so it might only be +3, and the DM probably hasn't given them a holy avenger yet, so no advantage on saving throws. It's level 18-20 Paladin that has a Holy Avenger and 20 CHA where...making a party without one of those is simply a mistake.
Worth noting that druids get revivify if you use Tasha's optional rules. Not every DM does. So I think given that it's fair to consider them weaker at support than clerics (who also get raise dead when druids don't). That said I'd still give the druid an A.
I tend to fully agree about Artificers not being assessed for their real support capability. Alchemists are very good support because they can make a Healing Word or Mass Healing Word gain a bonus with Alchemical Savant equal to their Int mod, and never need to Cure Wounds except very rarely. They also bolster any of their useful Experimental Elixirs with a 2d6 + Int mod temp HP bonus at level 9 (which pairs well with Aid), and they'll never need to keep Lesser Restoration on their spells kept again. They get Gaseous Form, which is a wonderful rescue tool, when your allies are in a trouble spot or held in place by magic. Combining this with their base kit as a medium armored shield user with Aid, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility and of course, Haste is a pretty damn good support kit. Yeah, the other subclasses are less support-oriented, but I think they do a pretty reasonable job at filling a solid support niche like the Ranger would.
I'm playing a circle of the land druid and being able to dish out 40 points of healing from goodberry because we had a few days of downtime beforehand is massive. Revivify is optional or in the wildfire subclass and they get everything else you'd want already
I'm playing artificer/druid, the billed I have is Summoner, combination of summoning and buffing spells, so...
@@seanedgar164 Goodberry healing only works for 24 hours after casting and requires an action to eat 1. I would say that Goodberry is more utility than support(removes the need for food and water while traveling).
Have you ever thought about letting your community vote for each role from first to last place to give more of a weighted perspective? Like this many people have cleric as there first place and then a majority of people have bards are druids as their second place option
But that could skewer the "best" slot. If some people consider Paladin 1st, but Bard 2nd and Druid 3rd, while others give Cleric 1st, Bard 2nd, and Wizard 3rd, Bard would overall be given 1st, as it was part of a top 3 more often.
By keeping it simple with "who do you think is THE best", you need less consideration to where one class might be situationally better compared to another. The class that you think provides the most and best support, is the one you give the spot to.
Divine Soul is the absolute craziest battlefield medic / combat support role I've ever played. Twinning Death Ward and revivify, distant spell greater restoration, easily the most fun I've had with the role
I will say, I think instead of asking "who's the best at this role" in the polls, you'd get better results asking everyone to rank each class on a scale of 1-10.
My Circle of Dreams Druid was an insane support/utility combo. I know, just one class. Then you bragged on one class of paladin and how it's borderline S. Circle of Dreams Druid can heal two party members in one turn, or heal one and turn the other into an ape. Massive A+. Up there with Bard and Cleric.
And circle of Shepard's is the best mass healer in the game
@@adamstraits1532 This ^ The Shepard Druid is so damn good.
Honestly I know they said they don't really count subclasses but druid's 4 of 7 subclasses are actually support subclasses, I feel like they should have considered that.
Stars is also a great support as well. I feel like Druid is always getting overlooked as far as support role goes lol.
so as wildfire, two healing class abilities ,being able to use support spells through the spirit
Bard is such a fun class to see in these as the *Second S Tier* in a few roles (and mayhaps a few more).
Really shows why they excell in small Party Comps of 4 or less or how they can really lay on the hurt in larger party comps where they really get to just be whatever the f@ck they want and then some.
It is a very strong and very versatile class
But seriously, being second in something only to a Wizard and only to a Cleric in the positions the other two classes are picked for really highlights how powerful the Bard is in 5e. Being able to combine second best utility and second best support in a way the other two classes can't and have a lot of flexibility in how you combine them really makes the bard shine as the best *Mulit/Hybrid Role* Class in the game, that and being able to potentially cover for both a Missing Cleric and a Missing Wizard in a party of 1 to 4 members is amazing.
And again, the ability to steal what should be exclusive Wizard Spells, Cleric Spells, or Paladin Spells is amazing
Like, Imagine a Bard doing the Infinite Simulacrum combo by using wish and simulacrum to have as many as they want at once (of which Creation Bard is the best at it in the game due to making spell components for free).
Imagine 1 Bard and 5 Bard Simulacrums with their regenerating Bardic Inspiration uses and their cracked out support and utility spell lists. Ever wanted to make sure a Boss had a 1d12 Saving Throw Penalty at all times? What about the absolutely absurd healing output, area control, and denial?
Or each Creation Bard Simulacrum being able to have a Dancing Item *and* their own created items, and then all of their healing and support spells, the sh@t gets silly.
But again even at low levels it really shines, even in a Party Comp with a Wizard and a Cleric it still shines.
Like a Wizard, Valor Bard, Cleric combo is a really strong party comp as a three person party, but if you have Cleric Frontline instead of dual frontline with a Valor Bard, use a Lore or Eloquence Bard and just win
Wait for the "Face" role video and we will finally get the "S" tier.
The bard is the best overall class in the game. I'll be surprised if they get anything below a b in these rankings.
They heavily over-rated Bard in both support and utility. Bard has less support and utility than Wizard, Cleric and Druid because of the very limited cantrip and spell selection. I've never seen a Bard build in any of my games that's more effective than those 3 classes (and support is arguably worse than Paladin also).
@@Osmium2626 you likely saw the bard filling multiple roles. this is the question "if you focus on being the best you can be in this category, how good can you be?"
I think the fact that bard lost to cleric for support is nuts. bardic inspiration is THE defining characteristic of a support class. add a d6 (and pretty soon a d8) to an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw is HUGE for both in combat and out of combat support. it refreshes on a short rest and as a consequence is a plentiful resource. combine that with healing word for picking up downed allies, polymorph for healing almost dead allies (aka one of the most powerful healing/support spells in the game), faire fire for advantage on attack rolls, and things like guidance and bless and revivify only being a magical secret away, I just don't get it. yeah cleric can heal. but so can the bard. and on top of that the bard gets spells for easy advantage for party members, and an incredible buff to saving throws that can be STACKED with bless, spells that give advantage, and that paladin's aura. most clerics I know and have seen played eventually just go spiritual weapon/spirit guardians. the bards always mainline support and debuffing enemies.
i have a soft spot for bard, and I also adore clerics. my two favorite classes, easy. but I just think the idea that a cleric is a better support character than a bard is nuts. bards are far better buffers than clerics.
Playing a Viking skald as a valor bard is one of the best dnd experience I’ve ever had
Absolutely, been doing the Scotsman from Samurai Jack as a valor bard.
His vicious mockery is on point.
Why play a viking skald, when you can play slavic kalika (plus multiclass in barbarian/champion fighter)
I think the difference in views on the Paladin stems from more fundamental differences between higher optimization play and more traditional tables. The Paladin's Aura of Protection, especially when supported by bless, is so essential at more optimized tables because spell saves happen more and are more critical in this type of play. Most lower optimization combat encounters are much more focused on preventing death by damage because damage-based attacks are the primary feature of combat encounters at those tables. Sure, you may face a few saving throws, but the effects are rarely pivotal and the DCs are relatively low. Meanwhile, at more optimized tables, failing a saving throw may lead to one or multiple party members attacking each other, being rendered much less effective, or completely incapacitated/outright killed. This makes an extra +1d4+3 on those critical saves completely game changing at these sorts of tables. So honestly, the extent to which the Paladin is a good support class depends heavily on the kind of game your DM is running. If your DM is asking "Who's playing the paladin?", somebody should probably take 6 levels in Paladin. But Paladin players can take solace in the fact that, even if their auras doesn't make a huge difference at their table, they're still an amazing frontliner with excellent defenses, burst damage, and decent support and utility.
Druids are definitely high A, they have a great spell list that they can change every long rest.
You definitely did monks dirty too, Way of mercy would like a word. And even other monks are definitely a C.
Paladins are a B, they're way too m.a.d and are spread too thin. In *theory* they can do some cool support stuff, but then they'll suffer in other areas, their passive auras are what's holding them up.
Wizards are a high B, Rangers a low B.
Mercy monks are the exception that proves the rule.
@@MithranderGray But it's a lot more than barbarian or fighter has. And stunning strike could be said to be support.
You do know these guys that I love is somewhat affected by Monty's hard take on this role as I dont think they ever mentioned Guidance or Enhance Ability
Monty: 'B is all about the build'
Also Monty: Paladin is borderline S.
To be fair, if the paladin actually decides to cast a spell instead of using them to smite, 90% of their spells overlap with clerics, while also getting unique buff spells and skills clerics don't.
paladin above druid? WIZARD above druid? come on guys!
The monk should be a C due to the Way of Mercy subclass. It makes for a good secondary support that can get rid of negative status effects and provide a bit of healing.
I believe they said that if there's really only one support build, then it gets a D. Every class has a subclass that can be built to support somewhat.
You are right but the artificer still got an A and sorcerer is B because of one specific build
The wizard really isn't as good of a support class as people think. Sure, it has some good support spells, but that's all. Rangers not only have some good support spells as well, including healing, but they also have some good support features that don't rely on spells. I'd rank wizard and ranger about equal for support.
The druid, however, is probably A tier. Again, not only does it have some great support spells, some of the best that even clerics don't get, but they have other features that support, too.
S and A tier mean can it BE _the_ support. Druids can, paladins can't
This was a really good video with lively back and forth discussion. I tend to pick the support/utility role in any given party, so I usually play a cleric or druid. I definitely need to try out bard, because I have the annoying habit of bursting into song out of the blue; at least then I'd be giving folks inspiration!
That's the spirit.
I think I would have been a less “selfish” Artificer if my DM would have given me magic items or at least let me make them. Mine literally said I would be unable to make magic items even at 20th level. Yeah, I was pissed. Had a tough character but it was not what I wanted at the time and took my heart out of the end of the campaign as my Artificer came into the game at really high levels after over 3 years of play.
Isn’t making magic items like a core feature of the artificer? I’d be pissed too. That’s like telling a Cleric they can’t use channel divinity or telling a Druid they can’t wildshape.
Cleric and Bard are both unquestionably, objectively S tier. Anyone who thinks otherwise holds no value in their opinions for any other rankings.
you guys are by far my favorite D&D content creators, always extremely helpful love everything you've put out keep up the good work!
Dungeon Dudes, can you make a tier list ranking the classes on which would make the best single mono class party. I know that a party consisting of one class is ridiculous but I think it would be fun!
As a druid main I highly disagree with the B ranking for them. Druid has access to several healing spells and other support options, as well as, like the Cleric can pick and choose spells per situation. They are no cleric but I think they are among the top 3 support classes when I think support in D&D 5e. Just because one subclass doesn't fully go down the support tree for druid doesn't mean that it isn't a support class. There are Cleric and bard subclasses that don't strictly go support but doesn't mean their built in spells and abilities don't make them a great support class.
Insane to me that Druid isn’t an A tier, yes sure you would have to build towards it but you get basically every single great support spell on a prepared spell list. Except things like aid and bless
There are more Druid support subclasses then there are… moon druids hahah
I might be biased because I made myself a beast of a supporter character (granted I took 2 levels in twilight cleric and my dm let me learn the spell aid), but before I even multiclassed I was still aMAZing support
I guess mercy monk would be the exception that proves the rule, as they have decent punch heals.
rangers are force multipliers
they can do everything
but they are always best when complimenting someone else
I like the Eloquence Bard with a 1 (or 2) level dip in Arcane Cleric.
*chef's kiss*
Beautiful
I've actually been playing an Order Cleric/Eloquence Bard multiclass which has been super fun
@@alexadavis8558 Yes, bard and cleric are a good multi-class combo.
@@alexadavis8558 One could also choose a lore bard instead of eloquence bard to get magical secrets at 6th level if your party doesn't have anyone who can cast counterspell and revivify. Counterspell and revivify are clearly the 2 best choices for a lore bard's magical secrets, unless your character is obsessed with getting fireball.
@@davea6314 I hadn't thought of that! Sadly I'm trying to balance being the party's #1 Support, Utility AND Face, so I wanted to get that sweet 3rd level Eloquence ability for social encounters. I'll probably be going 5th level Cleric for Revivify next level cause the threats are getting graver now (currently a Cleric 4/Bard 3)
Didn’t expect a RPDR reference, but I’m here for it! :) love these videos guys, as a newbie to the game they are invaluable
Love the D4 Medic Rogue shoutout! I have in the back of my mind a Thieves' Guild/Oops All Rogues campaign or oneshot and that guy is key to making it happen.
I don't understand what about wizard screams support here. I think most of the spells they're thinking of are utility not support. Like wizard support spells are Life transference and certain buffs like silvery barbs, gift of alacrity, polymorph and haste. A lot of their spells that are buffs are utility buffs like fly or invisibility. When I compare druid or wizard for support I certainly see druid win no contest. I also don't see how wizard beats sorcerer since they largely get the same spell options for support but sorcerer has better subclass options and metamagic for it.
Dagger-in-the-heart take, druid A wizard B cause druids can swap out their spell list pretty much at will, and a wizard is reliant on their DM giving them access to spells they didnt choose to directly take on level up.
THIS! Wizards don't even have Cure! Wizards don't have the spell versatility, or a single 1st-level spell that reads as support except... Longstrider?! You have to wait until you cast 2nd level spells to begin being support?! BAD ranking.
@@TheDreamburner LITERALLY their reasoning for cleric over bard, just forgot about it haha
Goodberry is the best support spell in the game. A first level spell which can be cast the day before let's your entire party be able to to bring someone back from zero hit points. ( as long as you share them out)
If your fighting a flying enemy now the barbarian can become a support class by holding the goodberries.
No wizard spell can turn someone else into a support class
I think it really comes down to whether your party can survive with one class as their dedicated support. I think the Druid does a far better job than the paladin does for that role. And if the paladin isn't on the front lines, just running around patching people, you're gonna be in a bad spot
I missed dungeon dudes ranking videos.
Really good series so far.
I have to say that I do believe the Ranger is as good as a Wizard at support. Because they're both not primarily support. A wizard and a ranger both bring utility, yet a ranger also has healing spirit and goodberry.
I'm biased towards Rangers, I must admit, but I wanted to make my case about them.
About artificers: If I were to play an artificer, I would most likely be an artillerist or ranged armourer because that way you can buff up the rest while remaining safely away from melee.
14:15 I thought Bard 1 Cleric 2
Guidance is good, but bardic inspiration is better.
They both get healing word, aid and lots of others, clerics get bless and bards get faerie fire.
But whereas a cleric will suddenly start going into the 'spiritual weapon' and 'spirit guardians' around level 5, a bard will always be that support/utility guy, more so then the cleric imo.
16:04 dispell magic and raise dead are both considered utility, not support.
While Paladin is amazing, I feel like level should have been a factor in the rating. A Paladin's Aura is unarguably a great support feature, but it only comes online at lvl 6 for out to 10ft. Extra auras not until 7. So for lvls 1-5, you aren't getting that buff. And if your squishy wizard wants that plus to their saving throw, they need to stand within 15ft of the frontline to get the Paladin's Aura buff until lvl 18 when it's 30ft.
While is is true for all classes that their abilities improve as levels increase, I think a Paladin's role as a Support member increases exponentially vs a Cleric/Druid/Bard where it's just about spell lvl, making it more a linear progression. A Paladin won't have an aura buff to maintain concentration on a Bless spell so unless they take a feat when (in all likelihood) they are at the front line exchanging blows, there is a higher probability that they will lose concentration on that buff, vs a class like Druid/Bard that aren't trying to hold a Frontline + Support role simultaneously.
So I think Kelly was more correct trying to weigh it between A-B, rather than a S- defaulting to A.
You'll feel like a great *passive* Support player when you get to those higher levels of Paladin, but for a large amount of game play (looking at games running lvl 1-8), you are likely just going to be running up to tank hits and using those precious spell slots to explode Smite damage rather than *focusing* buffing your party.
Lay On Hands gets the Paladin an A on its own, IMO. Separate resource pool that scales with level? Yes please.
@@CrownlessStudios IME 99% of Lay On Hands is spend by the Paladin on themselves to keep them standing on the front lines. It's a good feature and can be good support but most of the time is not.
I feel like paladin is B purely because while they are a great secondary healer if my partys only support character is a paladin I am WORRIED for are partys survival. They are great at the support they can provide but they are a beatdown and a frontliner before they are a support character and simply do not have the resources to be your partys primary healer/support.
Never forget the good old Enhance Ability. Especially on sorcerers.
Orym of CR is a great example the difference between Utility and Support in the DD categories. As a Battle Master Fighter, he dances around the fight, changing the field, and puts people in better situations. He constantly prevents their enemies from getting shots at the squishier party members. But all of those are more Utility, in DD categories, than Support, because while he's putting his teammates in better situations he doesn't directly make their numbers bigger.
I love the conversation these tier list generate. So many different views and diversity of styles of play that are amazing.
Glad for the paladin love! Aura of Protection saved our monk from disintegration. Straight up, he was like 2-3 from making the save, he did not have the HP to survive it because we were getting stomped on and I was out of Lay on Hands, then I went "Wait, he's within 10 feet of me."
I will never let him forget that.
I played a Battle Smith Artificer and while it definitely opens up a frontline playstyle, you can't go in half way, you don't have the AC or hitpoints to really tank in the conventional way. Against low level enemies in very specific circumstances you can push the front line in lock step with your Steel Defender, but especially against bosses you're just too fragile. Twice I did tank against a boss ... one single hit, because both nearly downed me in a single shot while our Paladin and Druids stuck it out on the front line.
But put your Steel Defender in position to defend your Wizard or your Paladin, and now we're talking. Plus that gives you a ton of Arcane Jolt coverage to heal your party with.
You also get a lot of cheeky options with your Spell Storing Item. Sure Invisibility and Enhance Ability have great utility, but have you ever considered how annoying Shield or Sanctuary would be for the DM?
What do you mean by battle Smith not having AC, it's one of the easiest chassis to reach high AC in 5e. You are one behind armorer but with shield spell and imposing disadvantage in one attack. It's effectively a very high AC with +1 or +2 infusions on the shield and armor. My battle Smith tank was very durable and Kelly played a battle Smith with very high AC too in the game with d4 and treantmonk. I don't think it's the best tank out there especially because of medium HP and lacking a mechanic like rage, but AC is definitely not the issue.
@@PedroHISilva Absolutely they *can* have AC, but it takes a bunch of your infusions to get there. And probably at least the war caster feat. You can't do it halfway, you can't tank on weekends, you have to go into a fight prepared to tank. And you're therefore giving up some of your support and utility tools.
@@rafis117 why warcaster when artificers don't need free hands to cast artificer spells and already have CON proficiencies?
Repulsion shield is anyway a good infusion for tanks and even my offensive artificer had AC-boosting infusions among their options. Every PC has to go through some trade offs, but this is not even among the most difficulty ones. On top of that, steel defender and shield spells are available. Effective HP of a battle Smith is increased by using wisely the defender, plus deflection.
Sincerely, saying that battle Smith artificers have poor AC when a lot of builds have high AC is just wrong. Of course you can do whatever you want and even run a naked battlesmith, but multiple people play high AC battlesmiths. BS artificer was even chosen as a tank to play in a highly optimised table in the example I mentioned with D4, treantmonk and dudes. It's like saying that fighters have low ACs because their archer builds have low ACs.
On the Paladin as Support... in addition to Lay on Hands, consider Cleansing Touch: ends one spell on yourself or another creature that you touch.
Any spell. [CHA] times a day. End the enemy's buff or a debuff on an ally/yourself. The only way (probably) to make this better would be to make it a legendary resistance/action.
Here’s where I think Paladin was mistakenly rated as the ‘S-Tier’ frontline. Aura of Protection and Lay on Hands were mentioned as factors that pushed them over the Barbarian in that video. I thought so then, and I think so now: those are support abilities.
The thing is, the abilities are good for both. ^-^
a paladin using lay on hands for themselves is frontlining, using it on others is support, and then aura of protection is both since it bolsters the paladin against enemy abilities (frontlining) and also giving that bonus to close allies(support)
that case is a good example of overlap in roles. Just like polymorph can be support and utility depending of the context. Lay on hands is support for sure, but you have to factor in the range (touch) and fact that paladins are mostly hanging on the frontline.
As a wizard who wants to support: Play a divination wizard halfling with the lucky feat. Then pick as a feat at early levels artificer adept for guidance and Cure wounds. Get wither and bloom at lvl 3 and be a Hit dice healing Portent lucky person.
I haven't found Lucky to be that useful on my Div wizard as it's only your own rolls, or are you meaning bountiful luck?
Alternately, An Abjuration Wizard with Artificer Initiate can grab Spare the Dying, Cure Wounds, and a tool of choice, then when Projected Ward comes online for them at 6th level, they become excellent damage mitigators (which is equivalent to healing). Take Flock of Familiars to give you and your allies advantage on multiple targets. That's pretty good support.
And silvery barbs.
@@biggriz2690 "You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours. If more than one creature spends a luck point to influence the outcome of a roll, the points cancel each other out; no additional dice are rolled." Lucky feat is useful for that, too.
@@TheDreamburner yeah, more meaning that it hasn't really helped me support others, besides keeping me alive of course (just there's plenty of feats which can help with that).
I generally agree when they say that ranger is a true "jack of all trades, master of none" but I think that applies more to the base class. Rangers, possibly more than any other class, rely upon their subclass to boost their abilities:
Beast Master (Tasha's) & Drakewarden are a great mix of Frontliners, Beatdown, and Infiltrators/Explorers thanks to their companion's variety of roles.
Gloomstalker is one of the best Beatdowns in 5e for obvious reasons and has great Infiltrator/Explorer and Utility use too.
Swarmkeeper is a fantastic Utility thanks to their swarm's battlefield control/extended spell list and ability to fly which also makes them solid Infiltrator/Explorers (they may also have some Frontliner potential from their swarms free disengage and later boost to AC but idk).
Feywanderer is possibly the best Negotiator in 5e, and later (because of their enhanced Misty Step) becomes a great Infiltrator/Explorer and Support too.
Hunter and Horizon Walker are a bit more controversial, but even they are solid Beat Downs, with the latter also having some Infiltrator/Explorer and Utility potential.
edit: spelling, and changed my mind on Swarmkeepers as Support/Frontliners
I would say that Hunters can be pretty good frontliners with the alternate options.
Hordebreaker(3) gives you an extra attack on each of your turns(no bonus action or action required), as long as there is an enemy within 5 feet of your original target(and within weapon range). With Polearm Master, that is 4 attacks per round at level 5, and it is excellent for focusing down a big baddie while also removing nearby minions.
Some of your spells provide good battlefield control and mobility to get where you are needed.
Multiattack Defense(7) gives you a +4 AC against a creature after it's first hit(more tanky vs multi-attack creatures).
Whirlwind Attack(11) sacrifices 1 attack to hit all nearby enemis(which will still trigger Hordebreaker and allows for an attack with your bonus Action).
At level 15, all options could be viable. Some provide damage mitigation, others extra damage.
The biggest issue is staying power. Tireless(10) can provide a bit of temporary hit points at the opening of a fight. Nature's Veil(10) lets you use your bonus action to become invisible(disadvantage on attack rolls against you) until the start of your next turn(it does not end if you attack or cast a spell). Both are tied to your Proficiency bonus.
This could mean that you go for Ranger 16, Monk 4(going naked at level 17).
@@fendelphi Great point, I do wish Hunters were given more abilities like every other subclass after the PHB but they are still incredibly underrated, especially now thanks to Tasha's optional rules.
I have played Cleric consistently since the early 90s, and in computer games that do not even have the class I do it anyway. It fits my actual personality well. Even if I am not religious in the slightest I am insightful at resolving social and emotional complexities, struggles and conflicts. As cleric I am usually the main solid tank, without dps, prioritizing a huge shield and satisfied with a simple mace. I make sure my friends can do the damage, controlling the battle to adjust it for the party's advantage. I often end up also the main face and the party leader, if not the secondary. I give the party a meaning and a purpose, elevating the morale of each member in the party. I want my friends to excel at what they are good at, while I have their backs and help them through distractions.
Paladins can be a lot of fun in a more supportive role. Their aura is very powerful as is, then they can be emergency medic, they can do some control with feats and the right weapon, and they can still cast support spells. They will probably need to take a concentration feat to be sure to hold onto concentration though, and their low spell slot supply and limited spell list does keep them from feeling quite like a dedicated support.
Lay on Hands and Aura of Protection make a Paladin at least as good as an Artificer for Support, and then you add in spells on top of that? Easily an A, IMO.
@@CrownlessStudios Agreed, Artificer is more battlefield control IMO, but can definitely be support if you really try. Paladin is easily better than them if you have a Paladin player that wants to be more than a smite machine. However, in both cases I feel like their at the table they generally don't live up to their potential for support because players often prefer to lean into the selfish builds.
@@agilemind6241 I don't know if I'd call "erasing the thing that's trying to kill the party with a critical smite" selfish. Lol
When I played Out of the Abyss, our artificer gave my paladin/warlock a +2 shield. I had a 24 ish AC with the ability to cast shield. +1 plate, +2 shield, can't remember if I had a cloak of protection, ring of protection, or both. But damn was I a good tank. He helped tremendously
tortle can get up to 23 with a shield, 24 if your DM considers the shell as 'armor'
and more if it can cast spells
If the Wizard is better support than a Ranger then I'll eat my wizard hat. I'm a wizard main. I love wizard. It's my favorite class. Rangers and Druids outclass the wizard with Support every single day. Good berry? Healing word. Aid. Absolutely not. No, the wizard is worse. I won't take criticism here. I love my fellow book lovers but you're a fool if you think you're better at keeping a party alive than a druid or a ranger.
Speaking as a moon Druid packing enhance ability, pass without trace, guidance, and several healing options, it’s definitely an A rank, regardless of subclass.
Sorcerer with metamagic and divine soul is a B but wizzard without healing is a A. bias much?
That’s one subclass. A B is a class that has one or two really good subclasses, but not much else. I disagree with the Wizard rating, but sorcerer fits perfectly
I love all your content but I've been the most excited for this series. Keep up the great videos!
Even though neither placed really high. I played a Divine soul sorcerer/ warlock with pact of the chain and I was a menace with support
So basically:
Support: Makes the options already available to the party better
Utility: Gives the party more options
Correct?
Pretty much
Close.
They should review each video with their definition.
Utility actually gives the party NEW tools.
The Wizard was their S ranked utility class.
Their list of spells is very impressive.
Support improves what everyone already has.
Everyone has hit points.
Everyone has an AC.
Everyone has an attack roll.
Everyone can already see (hopefully)
Best support=
Whichever emotional support animal/Mob the DM gives the party.
I'd have to give druid my S but a close second is artificer
"Wizard and ranger are not equal." I mean, I think it's really important to think about what spells these characters will actually have available for use and be able to cast. You're nuts if you don't know Cure Wounds on your ranger, and Pass Without Trace. The latter is going to be such a huge support in key moments, and the former isn't going to make the ranger a main healer but is going to prevent dying party members from having to make death saves, or could bring back important NPCs or party members that are needed during a combat. The wizard is unlikely to have anything prepared that's going to do those sorts of things when they're needed, and is going to be using concentration for utility nine times out of ten. I love wizards and think they're truly excellent at what they do, but I really don't see that role being "support" unless you specifically build them that way. The ranger is going to be doing some basic support with any build.
I feel like you guys really skipped over the druid here. Goodberry juggling is one of the largest bursts of healing I've seen in lower level play. They get healing word, cure wounds and lesser restoration. The only fault I see is the lack of revivify and temporary hp, which druid subclasses have access to
Revivify is on the Druid's expanded spell list from Tasha's. That said I agree that they're sleeping on the Druid a little.
I vehemently disagree that the artificer should be mandated to hand over their infusions to "support the party"! Yeah, you could give the +1 shield infusion to give the paladin who already has an absurdly high AC an even more absurdly high AC. OR you can let the Artificer keep their infusion, and it makes them a decent secondary frontliner. Artificer Infusions is the Artificer features... You know instead of getting even more features like paladins or rangers, Artificer get those extra magic items which allows them to shine.
Usually I agree more with Monty, but here Kelly is 100% right about the Paladin. Paladins are your co-supporter. Right now I'm DMing for a group that has a Paladin, a Twilight Domain Cleric and a Druid. Paladin comes third on the "support" role here, not even close. And the Cleric is #1, not even close to the druid.
Even though I love Bards in 5e, it's my favorite class, I think in terms of support they are #2.
I feel that while Paladins are amazing at support, most of the support aspects of the class come from their cleric spell list; the auras, while powerful, don’t outrank the plethora of cleric healing spell slots. So if you are going to say that the paladin is an amazing support class, why would you rank it better than the cleric?
I think the Purple Dragon Knight was the closest to a focused Support geared Fighter.... however that class failed so badly at it that it's embarrassing.
I mean wasn't that kind of the idea for it, to be in the middle of the fight and giving bonuses to other players and also tanking blows?
Everyone was so upset with the Ranger and wanting the Revised Ranger to be confirmed that the PDK fighter was just sort of forgotten about
I'd say that base class artificer is the S tier support but once you add the subclass it drops down to an A, but otherwise I agree with kelly on this I gave my S tier to cleric
Heh, not a spoiler. Cleric was definitely my pick, but could have been convinced Bard was better, especially if the spells lined up. Bardic inspiration is incredibly powerful.
Edit: Awwww, man, the Ranger aren't going to get any love are they. :(
The problem with the Bard is exactly as you stated. It's a massive mix of utility and support. They don't specialize one way or the other. They perform both very well. Not the best.. but very well. Cleric is definitely S tier. They have so much support that it's ridiculous. Twilight clerics alone are enough to make DM's want to kill them immediately after your first combat. When you can use Twilight Sanctuary and still concentrate on a spell.. that's busted.. I mean.. really really busted. Add in the fact that they can deal decent damage while supporting your allies and they become the literal god tier of support. Imagine being able to pop off Spirit Guardians.. and just wander around the battlefield.. dodging attacks while dealing decent damage and slowing enemies. Maybe toss out a heal.. or Spiritual weapon for a little additional bonking... or restore an ally.. or use an action to use a healing kit with the Healer feat and just use an action to heal someone IN combat.. you just.. walk up to them.. Spectral Guardians smashing enemies...and use an action to use a healers kit for a sick heal, while Twilight Sanctuary buffers them with temporary hit points..... support much???