Thanks for documenting everything in such detail. If your actual experiments with low flow temps using the boiler showed the rads were big enough to keep the house warm how come you then changed them all?
This is indeed a very good question. I did ponder that very point as I pulled together this video. My conclusion was changing the rads added an improved margin for better performance. The Heat Loss survey indicated that the current rads were undersized in a couple of rooms which was supported by our experiences. So whilst we may have been okay when it hit -5º C then it the setup would struggle.
Top marks to TH-cam's algorithm. Thanks for the sub, much appreciated. I'm just editing the follow up video showing the details of the install. So much footage to wade through! LOL
Good video John. I also have 10mm microbore pipes throughout my house to all my radiators. As a result I was fairly convinced that an Air to Water heat pump was not an option for me without very costly & intrusive work to upgrade all the pipe sizes & radiators. I was therefore looking at cheaper to install Air to Air systems instead with the added benefit of being able to get cooling operation in summer. Now I see that somehow your installer has managed to make 10mm pipework work in a 17 radiator A2W system so I am very interested to see how this turns out. Like you I tested my existing 4 year old Ideal gas boiler on low water temps in winter & it struggled badly with short cycling & high water temps / low flow rate alarms. It just could not turndown it's capacity low enough to operate properly with flow temps of less than 45-50c. I even changed the pump & flushed the system to see if that improved the situation but to no avail. I retired from the HVAC industry recently after 45 years of working for manufacturers, distributors & installers so I know all about domestic, commercial & industrial heat pumps, refrigerants & refrigeration systems. ATW heat pumps need high flow rates because they operate on a delta T of only 5c. The No.1 operational problem with A2W HP systems is low flow rates so I'm interested to see how your system turns out using 10mm pipework.
Thanks for watching Colin. I have confidence in the quality of the design and installation that our system will worked as specced with 10mm microbore, eg. 40ºC flow temp at -3º with a SCOP of 4.0. We will find out once this winter is over and be able to review and evaluate the system and its performance. Short cycling is a killer for heat pump not only in terms of poor efficiency but wear and tear on the pump. But you already know that. I will certainly do more update videos as time goes by.
I’ll be watching your subsequent videos with interest. I’ve heard of the open energy monitor. It looks very interesting. It’s rather curious: I’m used to SolarEdge: Fantastic data acquisition but poor battery controls Whereas any heating system: Fantastic controls but poor data acquisition. I’m approached a couple of heat pump installers and have gotten to the stage of receiving a budgetary quote, so next stage is to get a detailed quote. I’ll no doubt plot out my journey to air source heating on my own TH-cam channel.
Thanks for watching Anthony. There does seems to be a pattern around data acquisition some companies/industries are good at it, others not so much. I was planning a more detailed follow up video on Open Energy Monitoring setup verse the data you can see in the Vaillant heat pump controller. Spoiler alert; it's chalk and cheese. You can do your own heat loss survey and map out your floor plan. Not sure if you'd seen my previous video on that? Doing this gives you something to compare your quotes against which I found invaluable. I'll keep an eye out for your future content.
Hi John. Great video. I have a similar narrow (1400mm) area where I'd like to position a heat pump but I've been worried that I wouldn't meet the 1 metre rule. Good to know that a smaller space isn't a deal breaker. Did you have to dig a drainage hole to capture the condense?
Hi Steve. thanks for watching. Many local planners are I'm sure waiting until the 1m rule is removed along with the pointless noise assessment, it's in consultation at the moment. There's a series I've done which you may be interested in watching which covers the end to end installation and rebuffing the comments about micro-climating in a small space. The condensate was routed off the the side where there is a gravel bed down the side of the house. So far it has been absolutely fine with no issues in drainage.
@@johntisbury Thanks John. I will take a look. I’m waiting for the results of the permitted development consultation on heat pumps which I think is due next month.
@@stevesmith7675 fingers crossed on your planning outcome. Hopefully you've already chatted to any neighbours who are next to the 1400mm zone. My neighbours were concerned about the noise. I ended up showing them a TH-cam video from Urban Plumber standing next to the Vaillant heat pump running at full chat! Since it's install they have said to us that they cannot hear our heat pump when it's running.
@@johntisbury That’s good to know. Our neighbour successfully objected to our extension 10 years ago which is why I’ve been nervous about submitting another planning application. I’ve done some research on the local planning portal and a house nearby with similar distance-to-boundary issues made a successful application despite a neighbour and a parish councillor objecting. So I’m hopeful. Although the MCS have suggested lowering the decibel figure to 35 in rural areas! Pity they don’t stipulate noise from a gas flue. That would hasten the switch to renewables. My boiler flue pumps out 60dbs. What is the highest reading you’ve seen from your HP?
@@stevesmith7675 I've not measured the decibels for our heat pump as it didn't need a noise assessment due to no windows being near it. Manufacture's stats state 50dbs. A whispered conversation.
Thanks for watching. I was looking at Mixergy, but glad I didn't as they don't appear to play too nicely with heat pumps. They seem not to be too efficient.
Really good video, I’ve opted to replace my old gas boiler with a condensing version and have worked out the heat loss, which in my case needed 10 rads replacing for larger ones but my design flow temperature will be 50 so the return temp will always be in the condensing range, like you it’s only when something has been in use will you know if the design has worked out. I also have 10mm micro bore so flow rate is key for heat transfer, I’ll definitely be checking back with your journey to see how it performs as I’m sure you must have considered upgrading from 10 to 15mm.
I did initially think a heat pump was not going to work with microbore, however over the 18 months of research and testing low temperature heating at home new heat pump models dropped onto the market and made microbore pipes less of a problem
John , considering the distance between your heat pump and the fence , did you experience much freezing during the recent cold days we had ? I have a similar situation and contemplating wall mounting it but not sure if it is really necessary.
When thinking about the cost, how much did you save b doing your own heat survey and prep work. Whilst you might do this, most people won't. Great to see you doing all this in a nice, ordinary house.
I probably didn't save anything in reality Peter. I still had a professional heat loss survey done as well as the one I did. All the other preparation was really down to me. I still paid for a single use survey using the Heating Engineer software, which means I spent more rather than saved. However, it gave me a point of reference.
Hi John. Excellent video ! Also on this topic, based on the heat loss survey, what was your loss due to ventilation/air infiltrations , out of the total loss? Regards. Adrian
@@adrianbotos2819 thanks for watching Adrian. The heat loss survey takes into account both fabric and ventilation losses. However, it only shows the total heat loss rather than a breakdown between fabric and ventilation. There is a line by line, room by room, table which shows heat loss for windows, doors, vellum etc but I've not bothered to add that up.
One question John if your old heating system worked at around 35 /40 degrees , upgrading all of the radiators has doubled the amount of water that the heat pump has to heat . I know every installation that I have read about has done the same ? Great video looking forward to seeing how you get on 👍👍👍
Thanks for watching Glyn. Yes I guess it has increased the volume of water in heat pump needs to heat. There's benefits there with the extra volume of water as I believe it will act as a thermal store. It will also be much more efficient than our old gas system. 75% efficient on our old gas boiler at least 400% efficiency with the heat pump.
I'd have to say that the open energy monitoring is the best of its kind. At present there's more data than I understand, but that's down to my lack of knowledge. It most defiantly shows you the information / data that allows you to properly monitor the performance of your ASHP. The manufacturers built in stats are minimal and with little or no history. There are 3 levels of monitoring bundles available. I went for the all singing and dancing level 3. This gives you everything you need. shop.openenergymonitor.com/level-3-heat-pump-monitoring-bundle-emonhp/ The options to decide on are which heat meter to purchase as the sizing is important. Get one that's too small and you will constrict the flow and impact the system performance. In my next video I will cover what I purchased and why in more detail as well as go through the data it provides.
@@johntisbury thanks so much for this information and I too would go for the level 3. Great advice on the sizing and it is great to understand the problem with picking the wrong one.
Thanks for documenting everything in such detail. If your actual experiments with low flow temps using the boiler showed the rads were big enough to keep the house warm how come you then changed them all?
This is indeed a very good question. I did ponder that very point as I pulled together this video. My conclusion was changing the rads added an improved margin for better performance. The Heat Loss survey indicated that the current rads were undersized in a couple of rooms which was supported by our experiences. So whilst we may have been okay when it hit -5º C then it the setup would struggle.
Very impressive set up.
Thank you Barry. The next video will reveal the full splendour of the installation! 😂
Your video dropped as a youtube suggestion.
I found it interesting so ive subscribed.
Top marks to TH-cam's algorithm. Thanks for the sub, much appreciated. I'm just editing the follow up video showing the details of the install. So much footage to wade through! LOL
Nice video, very enjoyable to watch. Looking forward to seeing the data
Thanks Glyn for watching, glad it was enjoyable. Yes data is king for sure, we have a setup session planned for early August to fine tune the system.
Good video John.
I also have 10mm microbore pipes throughout my house to all my radiators. As a result I was fairly convinced that an Air to Water heat pump was not an option for me without very costly & intrusive work to upgrade all the pipe sizes & radiators. I was therefore looking at cheaper to install Air to Air systems instead with the added benefit of being able to get cooling operation in summer.
Now I see that somehow your installer has managed to make 10mm pipework work in a 17 radiator A2W system so I am very interested to see how this turns out. Like you I tested my existing 4 year old Ideal gas boiler on low water temps in winter & it struggled badly with short cycling & high water temps / low flow rate alarms. It just could not turndown it's capacity low enough to operate properly with flow temps of less than 45-50c. I even changed the pump & flushed the system to see if that improved the situation but to no avail.
I retired from the HVAC industry recently after 45 years of working for manufacturers, distributors & installers so I know all about domestic, commercial & industrial heat pumps, refrigerants & refrigeration systems. ATW heat pumps need high flow rates because they operate on a delta T of only 5c. The No.1 operational problem with A2W HP systems is low flow rates so I'm interested to see how your system turns out using 10mm pipework.
Thanks for watching Colin. I have confidence in the quality of the design and installation that our system will worked as specced with 10mm microbore, eg. 40ºC flow temp at -3º with a SCOP of 4.0. We will find out once this winter is over and be able to review and evaluate the system and its performance. Short cycling is a killer for heat pump not only in terms of poor efficiency but wear and tear on the pump. But you already know that.
I will certainly do more update videos as time goes by.
@@johntisbury 👍
spot on John ,looking forwards to the next one :)
Thanks Kevin
I’ll be watching your subsequent videos with interest. I’ve heard of the open energy monitor. It looks very interesting.
It’s rather curious: I’m used to SolarEdge: Fantastic data acquisition but poor battery controls
Whereas any heating system: Fantastic controls but poor data acquisition.
I’m approached a couple of heat pump installers and have gotten to the stage of receiving a budgetary quote, so next stage is to get a detailed quote. I’ll no doubt plot out my journey to air source heating on my own TH-cam channel.
Thanks for watching Anthony. There does seems to be a pattern around data acquisition some companies/industries are good at it, others not so much. I was planning a more detailed follow up video on Open Energy Monitoring setup verse the data you can see in the Vaillant heat pump controller. Spoiler alert; it's chalk and cheese.
You can do your own heat loss survey and map out your floor plan. Not sure if you'd seen my previous video on that? Doing this gives you something to compare your quotes against which I found invaluable. I'll keep an eye out for your future content.
Hi John. Great video. I have a similar narrow (1400mm) area where I'd like to position a heat pump but I've been worried that I wouldn't meet the 1 metre rule. Good to know that a smaller space isn't a deal breaker. Did you have to dig a drainage hole to capture the condense?
Hi Steve. thanks for watching. Many local planners are I'm sure waiting until the 1m rule is removed along with the pointless noise assessment, it's in consultation at the moment. There's a series I've done which you may be interested in watching which covers the end to end installation and rebuffing the comments about micro-climating in a small space.
The condensate was routed off the the side where there is a gravel bed down the side of the house. So far it has been absolutely fine with no issues in drainage.
@@johntisbury Thanks John. I will take a look. I’m waiting for the results of the permitted development consultation on heat pumps which I think is due next month.
@@stevesmith7675 fingers crossed on your planning outcome. Hopefully you've already chatted to any neighbours who are next to the 1400mm zone. My neighbours were concerned about the noise. I ended up showing them a TH-cam video from Urban Plumber standing next to the Vaillant heat pump running at full chat! Since it's install they have said to us that they cannot hear our heat pump when it's running.
@@johntisbury That’s good to know. Our neighbour successfully objected to our extension 10 years ago which is why I’ve been nervous about submitting another planning application. I’ve done some research on the local planning portal and a house nearby with similar distance-to-boundary issues made a successful application despite a neighbour and a parish councillor objecting. So I’m hopeful. Although the MCS have suggested lowering the decibel figure to 35 in rural areas! Pity they don’t stipulate noise from a gas flue. That would hasten the switch to renewables. My boiler flue pumps out 60dbs. What is the highest reading you’ve seen from your HP?
@@stevesmith7675 I've not measured the decibels for our heat pump as it didn't need a noise assessment due to no windows being near it. Manufacture's stats state 50dbs. A whispered conversation.
Looking forward to the install video. I thought you would have gone for the mixergy tank though.
Thanks for watching. I was looking at Mixergy, but glad I didn't as they don't appear to play too nicely with heat pumps. They seem not to be too efficient.
Really good video, I’ve opted to replace my old gas boiler with a condensing version and have worked out the heat loss, which in my case needed 10 rads replacing for larger ones but my design flow temperature will be 50 so the return temp will always be in the condensing range, like you it’s only when something has been in use will you know if the design has worked out.
I also have 10mm micro bore so flow rate is key for heat transfer, I’ll definitely be checking back with your journey to see how it performs as I’m sure you must have considered upgrading from 10 to 15mm.
I did initially think a heat pump was not going to work with microbore, however over the 18 months of research and testing low temperature heating at home new heat pump models dropped onto the market and made microbore pipes less of a problem
Good stuff
I wonder if the heat pump was installed with a buffer tank, or low loss header or neither
Looking forward to your next video John
Thanks for watching. You will have to wait and see 😀
John , considering the distance between your heat pump and the fence , did you experience much freezing during the recent cold days we had ? I have a similar situation and contemplating wall mounting it but not sure if it is really necessary.
2 defrosts an hour at -1.6°C. So no issues or defrost issues.
Interesting that you were able to fit your HP in ghat narrow alley , did it take long to get planning permission?
Took 5 weeks to get planning approval
When thinking about the cost, how much did you save b doing your own heat survey and prep work. Whilst you might do this, most people won't. Great to see you doing all this in a nice, ordinary house.
I probably didn't save anything in reality Peter. I still had a professional heat loss survey done as well as the one I did. All the other preparation was really down to me. I still paid for a single use survey using the Heating Engineer software, which means I spent more rather than saved. However, it gave me a point of reference.
Hi John. Excellent video ! Also on this topic, based on the heat loss survey, what was your loss due to ventilation/air infiltrations , out of the total loss? Regards. Adrian
@@adrianbotos2819 thanks for watching Adrian. The heat loss survey takes into account both fabric and ventilation losses. However, it only shows the total heat loss rather than a breakdown between fabric and ventilation. There is a line by line, room by room, table which shows heat loss for windows, doors, vellum etc but I've not bothered to add that up.
One question John if your old heating system worked at around 35 /40 degrees , upgrading all of the radiators has doubled the amount of water that the heat pump has to heat . I know every installation that I have read about has done the same ? Great video looking forward to seeing how you get on 👍👍👍
Thanks for watching Glyn. Yes I guess it has increased the volume of water in heat pump needs to heat. There's benefits there with the extra volume of water as I believe it will act as a thermal store. It will also be much more efficient than our old gas system. 75% efficient on our old gas boiler at least 400% efficiency with the heat pump.
I am looking at the open monitor for my ASHP. What did you need and do ytou find it works as you want, giving all the information you want?
I'd have to say that the open energy monitoring is the best of its kind. At present there's more data than I understand, but that's down to my lack of knowledge. It most defiantly shows you the information / data that allows you to properly monitor the performance of your ASHP. The manufacturers built in stats are minimal and with little or no history.
There are 3 levels of monitoring bundles available. I went for the all singing and dancing level 3. This gives you everything you need. shop.openenergymonitor.com/level-3-heat-pump-monitoring-bundle-emonhp/
The options to decide on are which heat meter to purchase as the sizing is important. Get one that's too small and you will constrict the flow and impact the system performance.
In my next video I will cover what I purchased and why in more detail as well as go through the data it provides.
@@johntisbury thanks so much for this information and I too would go for the level 3. Great advice on the sizing and it is great to understand the problem with picking the wrong one.
John Cantor has done an article on heat meter sizing github.com/openenergymonitor/HeatpumpMonitor/blob/master/selectingheatmeter.md
Can I ask what software you used to do your heat loss calculations?
Sure it was www.heat-engineer.com