I don't know what pipeline Andrew is entering, with the rules and law clarifications, and informing/complaining about infrastructure, but it feels rightly German and I'm here for it.
It does sound a little ironic that we all celebrate a trespasser also giving gifts who enters through a mechanism without a no trespassing sign and no lock, dressed in red and white and who is presumably more than 53.
Here in Switzerland that 'Father Christmas down the chimney tale' is not part of the ( traditional ) christmas lore. I would assume the same is true for Germany.
That guy is traditionally celebrated on the 5'th of December, at least in parts of Germany (and Netherlands and Belgium). The obese version that is celebrated on X-mas doesn't fit through the chimney.
@@rewboss I had a "headline debate" about this just an hour ago with my girlfriend. first we didn't know what it's really about, then after revealing one paragraph after the other, we came to the conclusion, that this guy is probably the same type as the "Querdenker".
Actually: unavoidable ignorance of the law is in fact a legal defense in Germany! See: §17 StGB. Although it is really hard to proof that you never had a chance in your life to inform yourself about the law in the country you are living in. And even tourists can damn well spend the time to read up on German law if the want to visit Germany. 😉
Cheers mate. I absolutely love how you are able to easily, in plain and simple english, convey what's going on in short and consicel form. You give us a good and informed look on both sides of the medal. Most news outlets fail to do so. Good on you!
We did not have christmas trees in kindergarten because the trees were set up on december 24th, the night before christmas. Besides, I don't see it as something religious, because it's not mentioned in the bible. If I (christian) lived in a culture with another religion, I would join the non-religious festivity parts of their holidays. But may every kindergarden do as they like.
It Celebrates The conversion of Pagans to Christianity in the region. St. Boniface took an Axe, cut down a Thunder Oak that the Pagans would Ritualistically sacrifice their children at and pointed down to an evergreen. The Tree Points up towards God and is Green year round with his love, and that it represented peace and eternal life. Which is why it became a Christian tradition.
@@spaghettiisyummy.3623 With St. Boniface cutting down the Thunder Oak, It is still the tradition to cut down the Christmas Tree in honor of his great deed. (which he was later killed for)
To evaluate the fine of 3,000 €, it should be pointed out that in Germany a fine is maesured after the income of the defendant. It follows the Scandinavian system with a number of daily rates. The 3,000 € fine may be 15 daily rates with 200 € each, or 30 daily rates with 100 € each, just as an example.
But that would not be a thing for court, he would have merely fined 20€ (or whatever) and the cost to remove the littering. IF anybody would have gone to the police in this case.
@@enno9612Why should it be anyone else's, if it has absolutely no effect on them? Don't kids deserve Autonomie? I see this as an opportunity for them to learn about stuff like making decisions as a group, compromise, and not getting upset if things don't go the way they want them to, starting with small, inconsequential things like a Christmas tree.
@@mightygreen3364 Exactly! Decision-making doesn't maaaaagically turn on once you hit a specific age, it has to be _taught._ So, why not let 3-6 year olds exercise their thinking meats with a simple question that directly affects them?
@@enno9612 It's infinitely more the decision of the children of the Kindergarten themselves than some right wing rando who decided that the white Christian way of life that he imagines is the "correct one" will not be deviated from and that the children in the Kindergarten are going to submit to that whether they like it or not.
Is it common practice in Germany to have a christmas tree at kindergarten? We never had one at my kindergarten or primary school so I don't understand the fuss here.
I was in a catholic kindergarden in Germany and we never had a christmas tree. The fuss is, that right wing propangada tries to instrumentalise these storys by saying: Not putting a tree is another sign that the christian traditions are surpressed in Germany.
I (childcare professional in germany) know a lot of childcares and kindergartens which dont have one. I believe the way that childcare handles it is probably the best way to go about it: They have put some decorations up for the festivities (probably decorations which dont create a huge mess and arent much work to put up or remove them again) but they asked the children whether or not they should have a christmas tree. Not only is the word "participation" is probably the one I heard and used the most during college but each state also has a book published which we are legally required to base every decision we make while working with children on. The book in my state can be summed up with one sentence: "look at what the children need and want and act accordingly". If the children want a christmas tree you can expect them to help decorate it, turning it into a learning experience. If they dont want one its just additional workload which doesnt serve much purpose. Id like to add that with the exception of religios kindergarten we dont celebrate religious holidays because of our belives, but because where picking up whats happening in the childrens lives. We celebrate christmas and easter because thats the topic occupying most of the childrens thoughts during that times but I also celebrated the muslim sugar feast once because we had a large group of muslim children. I understand if parents have the expectation that the kindergarten celebrates their religious festivities since its tradition but if they dont put their children in a religious kindergarten they arent entitled to it and they most certainly arent entitled to the celebration happening in a specific way and with specific decorations. edit: got a bit carried away while writing this, gonna comment the main part of it as a new comment directly under the video
I went to an explicitly Catholic Kindergarten and that one never put up a tree. This is right wing culture war backlash. The tree and the protest at the courthouse (with the "clever" slogans) are a demonstration of dominance and an implied thread: "There is only the white Christian way of life in this country and you *will* submit to it"
In this era, I'd be slightly surprised if the bomb-squad wasn't called in to the kindergarten, to make sure that none of the presents were "more energetically exciting" than desired.
German childcare professional here, let me give my professional opinion on it (my personal opinion actually differs a bit, but part of the profession is to keep the personal and the professional opinion separated) I believe the way that childcare handles it is probably the best way to go about it: They have put some decorations up for the festivities (probably decorations which dont create a huge mess and arent much work to put up or remove them again) but they asked the children whether or not they should have a christmas tree. Not only is the word "participation" is probably the one I heard and used the most during college but each state also has a book published which we are legally required to base every decision we make while working with children on and the book in my state can be roughly summed up with one sentence: "look at what the children need and want and act accordingly". If the children want a christmas tree you can expect them to help decorate it, turning it into a learning experience. If they dont want one its just additional workload which doesnt serve much purpose for our main goal of helping the children grow their personailites. Id like to add that with the exception of religios kindergarten we dont celebrate religious holidays because of our belives, but because where picking up whats happening in the childrens lives. We celebrate christmas and easter because thats the topic occupying most of the childrens thoughts during that times but I also celebrated the muslim sugar feast once because we had a large group of muslim children. I understand if parents have the expectation that the kindergarten celebrates their religious festivities since its tradition but if they dont put their children in a religious kindergarten they arent entitled to it and they most certainly arent entitled to the celebration happening in a specific way and with specific decorations. edit: found some spelling and grammar errors and fixed them. If you find any feel free to point them out so I can improve my english skills.
i like to hear that other cultures/religions festivities are recognised and celebrated. To celebrate sugar feast for example is a good way of helping prevent islamophobia, or for other festivities their discrimination in general. You tend to discriminate things les if you had positive experiences with them.
There are too many minor errors to go through, often with punctuation, but rather well done. Learn about the apostrophe and do not use contractions in writing. Also, the word you wanted was "beliefs".
It's already tradition that somebody in Italy has to say something about the christmas decorations, or lack of, in schools or other non public places. And usually it isn't the parents of the children, but some ass politician ...
Regarding the trespassing, I know that in several countries public schools designate their outdoor property (playground, soccer field, running track, little patch of grass with some trees, whatever they might have) as a public space outside of school hours, though as I understand this is a private kindergarten?
Difficult...people generally don't like change, or quite possibly are afraid of it - so the perception of something being taken away from them (yes, perception, bc obviously this Kindergarten didn't necessarily have a tree in the past) can easily lead to projecting that onto people from non-christmasy cultures - which now that an election is coming up is always a bit more problematic than it would otherwise be. On the other hand its not like those who do not want a tree can't make that connection and decide how to treat it themselves - after all the Kindergarten seems to put it up for a vote... Still at least we can probably all agree breaking into a Kindergarten for whatever reason is creepy and just shouldn't be done - even if you leave something there...
Have you ever heard of the german tradition of the "Maibaum" (May Tree) on which on a certain day (Valentines day I think) in the night you get a Maibaum and bring to your girlfriends garden, house or place of living and protect the Maibaum until the next morning. But actually you get drunk (very), Break into someones garden and steal one, then bring it to your girlfriend, fall asleep only for it to be stolen or your girlfriend thinking someone else brought it to her.
or better yet, you tie the tree to a street-sign in a densely populated area so now nobody knows who brought it and for whom it was intended (bonus point if it's in the wrong street)
The Maibaum obviously gets erected in May, hence the name. Valentines day us in february... (Technically, it gets erected on the last day of April, but thats the night to 1st May... Anyhow, the date is in the name)
What wasn't mentioned: At the end, the christmas tree has to be brought to some "disposal place". You need to cut it into peaces which causes much dirt where you cut it (needles falling down) and/or a bigger car (which also will get dirty if the bags get damaged by the tree or no bag at all is used) or a trailer (not everybody can "rent" one for free). And in a kindergarten, probably somebody wants to bei paid for that. In worst case, candles come to close to the dry tree for some reasons, e.g. small children or animals (especially if the tree doesn't get water) -> burns very well... So before bringing somebody such a gift, you really should talk with him, if it makes sense...
In most places in germany the municipal waste service or the fire departement or even some youth clubs collect the old trees called "christbaumsammlung". I don't really see an issue with dirt if the tree was placed outside.
@@anonb315 It must be at the right moment at the sidewalk, maybe while the staff is in vacation. To early = unnecessary problem for pedestrians. And in general you can slip out on the fallen needles, if there're many of them on like a sidewalk and if there're wet like by rain. And it needs a place. Where the children may play is a bad idea since they could do stupid things with it. Or big children who also like to put garbage on fire...
@@youtubekommentar5494 Look outside. Many trees loose their leaves in the winter. Better not leave the house if you are worrid about slippery leaves on the sidewalks. And I guess we should also ban all trash cans, if big children like to put garbage on fire...
Stupid people doing stupid things. I wonder how the guy would like it if someone dumped some rubbish on his property and he had to pay for the disposal costs. By the way, don't forget that only the criminal proceedings have been discussed. The civil action for damages is still pending.
@@ropeburn6684 I think that was my point! I did consider both Schloss and Festung, neither of which suited the saying as well (in my opinion). Can you offer a better lexical match?
@@davidchilds9590 I'm afraid there isn't a definite answer. There's castle and fortress in English, but Schloss, Burg and Festung in German. Only Festung and Fortress are direct equivalents; anything less fortified differs slightly between the two languages.
That was the defence, but the court didn't accept it. The guy wasn't a courier who had been asked to deliver anything, neither had anyone given him permission. The property was fenced off and the gate closed, the defendant had no legitimate reason to be there, it is not credible that he genuinely thought he'd been given consent.
@ I think unsolicited non-professional gift delivery should still be legally sound. Likewise, unlocked gates don’t necessarily indicate the lack of implied consent. He does seem to fall down on the facts, but I think you’re a bit too dismissive of the legal position.
@DanielsPolitics1 The court ruled that the gate was a clear indication that there was no consent, implied or otherwise. After all, if you catch me prowling around your garden in the middle of the night, you could call the police: I can't defend myself by saying, "I just wanted to deliver this fertilizer and fuel oil, and the gate wasn't locked and bolted." Maybe that argument will work in your country, but as this case demonstrates, it doesn't in Germany. The legal position is that the defendant in this case is guilty of trespass.
This reminds me of Home Alone 3 when he's wondering why the burglars haven't taken anything, and he deduces (correctly) that they must be looking for something specific
Don't worry. You can just swipe the tree from the town square and put it on the top.of your yellow Mini like Mr Bean. Don't forget to write down the mass of the turkey down to the gram so you can give a good dinner to your girlfriend.
This story starts funny and then just keeps getting darker. (In Poland arguments over Christmas trees are older than me, and they have mainly to do with the fact that having a Christmas tree generally tends to involve killing a tree, so a lot of people including myself feel it's not a tradition worth keeping)
In Croatia we also have artificial Christmas trees. They are made of some kind of plastic and you can close the branches and store the tree it in the attic outside of Christmas season. Are they not available in Poland?
@@mickimickiok, good. We don't need to waste perfectly good acres of land to grow "disposable" trees when they can grow a real forest or at least something useful
Hello Andrew I'm guessing, all my friends at college says that I look like you. They say you are an older version of me that's a time Traveler. Anyways nice content
Oh and I had to laugh hardly at the thought of someone entering the courtroom to support the defendant dressed as a Christmas tree. Would've loved to see the judge's reaction. They nay have wondered where the camera is hidden
I guess there are quite a few people out there who enjoy Christmas and all its ceremonies and still see not sense in cutting a tree just to throw it one the boardwalk a fortnight later. Although plasticky, there are reusable decorations. Not everything is „war on Christmas“🎄.
I've been told this story a bit differently. In my version, the kindergarten would usually have had a tree, but many Muslim parents protested against it, and the kindergarten complied with their demands. The convicted gardener refused to accept this, citing older rights tied to national culture or something similar, and placed the tree there as his own form of rebellion.
@@wassollderscheiss33 The official website of the kindergarten itself finkenau.de/2024/rund-um-den-weihnachtsbaum/ and multiple news articles and lawyers' blogs (the text of the court ruling is not yet public, but has been quoted in the media). What are your sources?
@@rewboss Thanks. Your sources are good, and I don't clearly remember mine. I just came across an article in BILD titled "Eltern empört! Kita streicht Weihnachtsbaum," dated 07.12.2023. That article implies that Christian traditions were banned by the kindergarten and that Christianity itself was somehow considered incompatible with freedom of religion ("[...] die Eltern in einem Schreiben der Kita-Leitung über eine neue Regelung informiert: keine christlichen Feste, Weihnachtsbaum als ‚Symbol‘ gestrichen. Warum das? Im Sinne der Religionsfreiheit!"). It is very much possible that I did have other sources back then.
The "there was a gate" argument doesn't fully convinc me. Yes, usually even a symbolic obstacle like a fance you can step over is enough to make a property protected ("befriedet"), BUT in case of an Kindergarden, the mainpurpose of the fance and gate is to keep the children inside the property, not people out. In the end I think he was trespassing, but 3k is a way to high penalty, especially if you look at the penalties that are given in Germany usually nowerdays.
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks the "main purpose" of the fence and gate are. It's clearly not a public space, and the kindergarten has the legal right to decide who has and who hasn't permission to enter it. After all, it's a kindergarten: there's a reason they might want to deny permission to random middle-aged men who aren't dropping off or picking up their kids. The fine probably ended up being so high because the defendant doubled down hard on patently bogus legal arguments and showed a lack of respect for the court. There's also a suspicion -- which I chose not to comment on in the video -- that he instigated the whole thing as a publicity stunt to promote his own business. The fine is, incidentally, calculated in day-fines, one day-fine being the amount of income the defendant receives on average in one day. For simple trespass, the fine is up to 15 day-fines, which is half a month's salary.
I mean, according to multiple sources they were inundated by hate messages online and have had multiple people trespass on their property during that time. They claimed that this was interpreted as a provocation.
They saw somebody trespassing on property belonging to a kindergarten. You do understand why having adult male strangers breaking into a place where there are young children is not a good thing, right? As the court said, had he left the tree outside the property, there wouldn't have been an issue.
But, but, isn't the "Christmas" tree a holdover from the pagan festival of Yule (no idea its German name)? Was the tree voted down by fundamentalist Christians?
That people actually seem to think that it is ok do enter other peoples property without any form of permission enrages me. Yes that is probably not what was going on here but still. We had often people wandering into the buldings of our farm and especially the cold storage bulding. Which by the way if we had to ventilate the Storage units at that time because of Carbon-Monoxide buildup would have possible meant that we had to explain why we have dead people in our building.
1. This was a non-religious kindergarten, so you don't have to celebrate Advent and Christmas either. The kindergarten had selfmade Advent window decorations. 2. The Christmas tree is actually only put up at Christmas and not during Advent. Anyone who really wants to have one and thinks it's part of Christian culture doesn't know anything about Christianity.
and it's a nice tradition but not a central tenet of Christianity. many more devout Christians don't like the Pagan roots or the out-and-out consumerism around the gifts
Why would a kindergarten have a Christmas tree even if it was in a super Christian country with only "Christian kids"? It just feels like that would be a disaster both for the kids and the staff. All the needles and curious toddlers😱
Trespassing is trespassing, if the owner of the land chooses to pursue legal action, that is what it is. And they only pursued legal action, because of the threats. So those nutjobs that decided to send threats to a Kindergarten are to blame. Otherwise it probably would have prompted nothing more than a raised eyebrow from the staff.
Lawsuit aside, I really doubt the intelligence of the people who left it up to *kindergarteners* to decide something like that. That in itself is worthy of Die Zwiebel.
It wasn't "left up to them". The kids were consulted on the matter. that's all. And why do you think they shouldn't be allowed to have a say on such a trivial matter?
@@rewboss I mean, these are 4-5 year olds. Do you really expect them to understand the significance of the decision they're making? Especially when it comes to divisive topics such as religion? Not that I'm saying children should have no autonomy at all. Just that they can't really make informed decisions. And thus, important decisions shouldn't be left up to them.
@@feynstein1004What significance? This has never been a problem before for the kindergarten, and the only people who have a problem with it are adults. The children aren't making any decisions that affect anyone except themselves: should the Christmas decorations include a tree? That's it: that's all they're making a decision on. The whole place was decked out in Christmas decorations they'd made themselves, they just decided not to have a tree. It's not an important decision at all, seriously.
@@rewboss Lol calm down, man. I'm just playing the Devil's advocate to try and deescalate the situation. I mean, it's not me you have to convince. I don't even care about this stuff. But for some people, tradition and rituals are quite important, especially when it comes to public spaces and the next generation. Admittedly the person in question handled it quite badly but that was just a symptom of an underlying problem, that of people wanting immigrants to adapt to their culture and not the other way around. Again, I don't care about it and I guess you don't either, but a lot of people do. Which makes it a sensitive topic and thus imo shouldn't be left up to children. Someone else pointed out in the comments that having a large tree with pointy needles in the vicinity of small children might not be the best idea and I fully agree but again, when people feel like their culture/way of life is threatened, they tend to behave irrationally. It's just human nature. Not that I'm trying to justify what happened. Just saying that delicate things like this should be handled.......well, delicately.
First of all, i would say Christian and not German as nowadays most clear thinking people dont trust in a magic man high up in the sky and second of all, there was Christmas Decoration, just not a tree?
A 3,000€ fine for trespassing without doing any damage seems pretty steep. Seems to me that the court was really trying to punish the good man for something else. Don't think it will hold up in an appeal.
Just looked this up as I'm obviously not a lawyer - Hausfriedensbruch (§123 StGB) carries a sentence of up to 1 year in jail or a fine, and it's only prosecuted if charges are pressed.
In Germany, fines for crimes (unlike fines for petty offenses) are proportional to one's income. You are fined a certain number of days' income. So for a (presumably somewhat successful - he could, after all, afford to "donate" a christmas tree with presents) business owner, a 3000€ fine is not really all that much, probably 30 days or less.
@@igel9316 did he threaten the kindergarten? If he is to be believed, he was unaware of the specifics of the situation and thought they were unable to afford a tree.
I do think you should have mentioned that the Kindergarten said that they didn't want to exclude anyone. The issue that people had here was that it was implied that christmas trees are exclusionary
That's how it was reported, but I didn't actually find that statement anywhere. I did find a statement saying that, in accordance with the official guidelines, they felt their mission involved teaching children about other cutural traditions in addition to Christian festivals.
Honestly none of that is even particularly relevant. It could have been a Satanist kindergarden out to corrupt all children and destroy Christmas forever and it still would have been trespassing ...
I am now an atheist, but I grew up in one of those rare branches of Christianity that doesn't do Christmas at all (not even as a religious celebration). I can tell you that Christmas trees are exclusionary.
@@qwertyTRiG Okay, look: I'm on the kindergarten's side here; but if having a Christmas tree is exclusionary, then not having a Christmas tree is also exclusionary by exactly the same logic. Every decision you make collectively is going to please some people and upset others: that's just how life is. Most years that kindergarten doesn't have a tree and those who wanted one have to deal with it. Some years it does have a tree and those who didn't want one have to deal with it. That's a really important life lesson for anyone who wants to live in a free society, and I think we all do. We all have very different needs and wants, and none of us can have all of our wants met all of the time.
Interesting. In my country if there is no boundary that is "uncrossable by common techniques", there is no trespassing. An unlocked gate is definitely not such a boundary. I mean, children's parks (which are public places) have fences and unlocked gates, and you can freely enter/leave. They have the gate only so that smaller children couldn't get out.
He could have had it much cheaper, just pay a much lower fine imposed by authorities and that would have been it. Instead, he insisted to have his day in court.
The day care decided with the children to not have a tree. They still decorate christmassy. They then worded a letter to the parents not quite correctly explaining their culturally sensitive position as a non religious day care. This created a huge shitstorm (twice now) that led to multiple trespasses on the property and occupying the employees with things other than caring for children. And then this guy wanted to do a cheap PR stunt with this. But it's the day care that's "cringe". Sure bud.
Anyone entering private property without permission, or who refuses to leave when asked to do so, can be reported to the police and prosecuted. That's what "trespass" is: it's what it's always been.
Wenn du mal ein bisschen recherchiert hättest., wüsstest du, dass alle KiTas dieses Trägers seit fast 50 Jahren jedes Jahr mit den Kindern abstimmen, wie genau die Kita dekoriert werden soll. Manchmal mit Baum, manchmal ohne, aber immer weihnachtlich. Auch diese KiTa hatte in einigen Jahren einen Baum und in den anderen Jahren nicht, und war ansonsten (mit Baum ode rohne) weihnachtlich geschmückt. Und es wird dort weiterhin Weihnachten gefeiert. Näheres findest du auf Finkenau punkt de Vielleicht hilft das ja deinem angeschlagenen Sicherheitsgefühl wenigstens ein bisschen wieder auf die Beine.
I think there should be no discussion wether there is a christmas tree or not. We live in german, here it is tradition, here it is culture, if you are at a german Kindergarten there should be a christmas tree.
That's your opinion. I belive we should stop cutting down trees to let them die in our homes al together. I do not see why a kindergarden needs a cristmas tree.
And before someone says, it's up to them. On one seide, Yes, it is. On the other side, this is kinda not private. And I miself are shocked anytime I hear about a german tradition I have never hear before. AIn my opinion, all these stuff SHOULD be casual while growing up however. Or else these cultural bits and peaces might get lost over time. So having a christmas tree is not up for debate, if you are not in your own private space and decorate for a holyday or event.
@@Mike518Mike My aunt has a life size plastic tree which looks convincingly realistic, if you don't inpeckt it on close up. And it gets decorated every year. So there are alternatives to real trees.
WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU to decide what other people do or not do? It is a fucking tree... some people buy one others don't. If you want one buy one for yourself. There are many reason not to buy one and IT IS DEFINETLY A PRIVATE THING. We live in a democracy we decide if we want to take part in a tradition or not.
@@FelanLP You're just contradicting yourself there. Should it be casual and everybody gets to decide for themself or should there be no discussion and everybody is required to have one? You can't have both.
If a kindergarten respects the cultures and views of others so much... then why do they decide to remove an object important to the celebration of Christmas to many people? It is baffling to me. Is there any religion, conviction or worldview that hates Christmas trees in particular? Lol. The world is going madder by the day EDIT: My apologies. I thought the kindergarten removed a Christmas tree for some reason. Rather, they simply did not procure one. I stand corrected.
@@Llortnerof Of course OP didn't watch the video. Or ignored anything that was inconvenient. I find that the xenophobes do that more and more often everyday, don't you?
Also technically not removed, but not procured in the first place. And yes, apparently there are even branches of Christianity that don't celebrate Christmas, or don't get a tree.
I did watch the video. I just wonder why you would let kids decide about removing a Christmas accessory in the first place in a kindergarten. And a xenophobe? Whatever did I say that makes me a xenophobe? It's rude to call others unfounded insults.
@@clancykohl You have a point. But I doubt the majority of the children who decided on not procuring the tree were of a Christian denomination that sees Christmas trees or the celebration of Christmas as undesirable. I could be wrong though. Also, even if the kids were part of such a denomination..they're kindergarten-age kids. I don't think they have any interest in such abstractions. At least you are respectful enough to correct me in a friendly manner!
@DangerSquiggles It does, but it also has an ever increasing crime wave of stabbings and vehicle attacks. Christians and Jews have a high chance of being attacked when they display their faith. Sign of the times.
Jup, I am ashamed that not even 100 years later attacking and blaming minoritys for all of our countrys problems is mainstream again. And yes this is the "NAZIkeule". You earned it.
It is shameful that we ; not even 100 years later; returned to blaming "the others" for problems in our country. The overreaction and hysteria surrounding the "cultur war" is insane.
I find the school (kindergarten) to be totally at fault here. They should have just accepted the tree and placed it somewhere on their property without worrying if it had some sort of threat attached to it. I also find that the school has gone too far left in trying to accommodate the immigrant children instead of showing them how to integrate into the German culture.
So they are at fault because a random guy doesn't accept what the team of the kindergarten and the parents decided and BROKE THE LAW because of it?!? Are you serious? What is it with people and fucking trees that this became such a big story they had other christmas decoration just not a tree. Also worrying about potentional threats is their fucking job especially when the kindergarten got several threats in the past years.
The fact that the tree was harmless wouldn't have been known to staff when they found it. But regardless, as the prosecutor said, there wouldn't have been a criminal trial if he'd left the tree _outside_ -- at most he'd have got a small fine for littering, but wouldn't have been convicted of a crime. The crime was trespass, and yes, there are really good reasons why kindergartens don't want random men on their properties. And as for "trying to accommodate the immigrant children", as I said in the video, the kindergarten still celebrated Christmas and still had Christmas decorations up. The only thing they didn't have was a tree. One of the great things about this country is that, unlike a few of the countries some of these children come from, we have the _freedom_ to decide for ourselves how we decorate our homes and our institutions, we have the _freedom_ to decide (within the confines of the law) what cultural traditions we want to follow. If you want a Christmas tree, you can have one; if you don't want a Christmas tree, you don't have to have one. Nobody is compelled to follow any tradition or any religion they don't want to. That's the only thing the kindergarten was doing here: making its own decisions. The children were consulted, a democratic decision was made (you know, democracy, another one of those things we value in our society). Nothing the kindergarten did violated any democratic principles, or any laws.
I don't know what pipeline Andrew is entering, with the rules and law clarifications, and informing/complaining about infrastructure, but it feels rightly German and I'm here for it.
It does sound a little ironic that we all celebrate a trespasser also giving gifts who enters through a mechanism without a no trespassing sign and no lock, dressed in red and white and who is presumably more than 53.
Here in Switzerland that 'Father Christmas down the chimney tale' is not part of the ( traditional ) christmas lore. I would assume the same is true for Germany.
That guy is traditionally celebrated on the 5'th of December, at least in parts of Germany (and Netherlands and Belgium). The obese version that is celebrated on X-mas doesn't fit through the chimney.
That guy wouldn't be a trespasser since he is expected and wanted to come into the house.
@@Llortnerof the cookies and milk are the legal invitation
@@silentwilly2983 Saint Nicholas
2:46 Spiegel (I think that's your source) corrected that prosecution offered to drop the case for even 500€, not 3000€. 3k was the verdict (so far).
Oooh, that makes sense.
@@rewboss I had a "headline debate" about this just an hour ago with my girlfriend. first we didn't know what it's really about, then after revealing one paragraph after the other, we came to the conclusion, that this guy is probably the same type as the "Querdenker".
@@therealpanseVery likely.
Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense.
Neither is "I'm to stupid to understand the law."
Or "TOO stupid two understand the lore." 😉😊
Actually, being too stupid to understand the law is a legal defense that can work. These people can be declared to be "unfit for trial".
@@silentwilly2983 Dont mix up unfit for trial with unfit to plead nor doli incapax.
Actually: unavoidable ignorance of the law is in fact a legal defense in Germany! See: §17 StGB.
Although it is really hard to proof that you never had a chance in your life to inform yourself about the law in the country you are living in. And even tourists can damn well spend the time to read up on German law if the want to visit Germany. 😉
Cheers mate. I absolutely love how you are able to easily, in plain and simple english, convey what's going on in short and consicel form.
You give us a good and informed look on both sides of the medal.
Most news outlets fail to do so. Good on you!
The Dead Cells game has a Santa outfit for the player - it's called "Reverse Burgular's outfit" 😂😂
I assume they wear white and black stripes instead of black and white stripes?
@@silentwilly2983Stripes??
Santa doesn't do stripes...
We did not have christmas trees in kindergarten because the trees were set up on december 24th, the night before christmas.
Besides, I don't see it as something religious, because it's not mentioned in the bible.
If I (christian) lived in a culture with another religion, I would join the non-religious festivity parts of their holidays.
But may every kindergarden do as they like.
It Celebrates The conversion of Pagans to Christianity in the region. St. Boniface took an Axe, cut down a Thunder Oak that the Pagans would Ritualistically sacrifice their children at and pointed down to an evergreen. The Tree Points up towards God and is Green year round with his love, and that it represented peace and eternal life. Which is why it became a Christian tradition.
@@phishENchimpsPoor Frisians...
@@phishENchimps But that, finally, IS an explanation that I've always wondered about!
Germans did invent the Christmas tree.
So it is a part of German culture, although now it's more international than anything.
@@spaghettiisyummy.3623 With St. Boniface cutting down the Thunder Oak, It is still the tradition to cut down the Christmas Tree in honor of his great deed. (which he was later killed for)
To evaluate the fine of 3,000 €, it should be pointed out that in Germany a fine is maesured after the income of the defendant. It follows the Scandinavian system with a number of daily rates. The 3,000 € fine may be 15 daily rates with 200 € each, or 30 daily rates with 100 € each, just as an example.
I first thought this was some kind of satire. But it is even more funny because it is real. 😂
People have no other problems in their lives
If he left the tree outside of the fence it would be littering.
This is what I was thinking
But that would not be a thing for court, he would have merely fined 20€ (or whatever) and the cost to remove the littering. IF anybody would have gone to the police in this case.
Ordnung muss sein
Nobody would consider it littering if he cheched that the tree was not retrieved in the next 2-3 days and removed it himself.
1:00 The children, so teh people affected by this decision, deciding what (not) to do seems like th core idea of democracy to me
It is not the decision for a 3 to 6 years old child in Kindergarten to make... what kind of argument is this?
@@enno9612Why should it be anyone else's, if it has absolutely no effect on them? Don't kids deserve Autonomie?
I see this as an opportunity for them to learn about stuff like making decisions as a group, compromise, and not getting upset if things don't go the way they want them to, starting with small, inconsequential things like a Christmas tree.
So you might be happy to hear that they were part of the decision
@@mightygreen3364 Exactly! Decision-making doesn't maaaaagically turn on once you hit a specific age, it has to be _taught._
So, why not let 3-6 year olds exercise their thinking meats with a simple question that directly affects them?
@@enno9612 It's infinitely more the decision of the children of the Kindergarten themselves than some right wing rando who decided that the white Christian way of life that he imagines is the "correct one" will not be deviated from and that the children in the Kindergarten are going to submit to that whether they like it or not.
Is it common practice in Germany to have a christmas tree at kindergarten? We never had one at my kindergarten or primary school so I don't understand the fuss here.
I was in a catholic kindergarden in Germany and we never had a christmas tree.
The fuss is, that right wing propangada tries to instrumentalise these storys by saying: Not putting a tree is another sign that the christian traditions are surpressed in Germany.
I (childcare professional in germany) know a lot of childcares and kindergartens which dont have one.
I believe the way that childcare handles it is probably the best way to go about it: They have put some decorations up for the festivities (probably decorations which dont create a huge mess and arent much work to put up or remove them again) but they asked the children whether or not they should have a christmas tree. Not only is the word "participation" is probably the one I heard and used the most during college but each state also has a book published which we are legally required to base every decision we make while working with children on. The book in my state can be summed up with one sentence: "look at what the children need and want and act accordingly".
If the children want a christmas tree you can expect them to help decorate it, turning it into a learning experience. If they dont want one its just additional workload which doesnt serve much purpose.
Id like to add that with the exception of religios kindergarten we dont celebrate religious holidays because of our belives, but because where picking up whats happening in the childrens lives. We celebrate christmas and easter because thats the topic occupying most of the childrens thoughts during that times but I also celebrated the muslim sugar feast once because we had a large group of muslim children. I understand if parents have the expectation that the kindergarten celebrates their religious festivities since its tradition but if they dont put their children in a religious kindergarten they arent entitled to it and they most certainly arent entitled to the celebration happening in a specific way and with specific decorations.
edit: got a bit carried away while writing this, gonna comment the main part of it as a new comment directly under the video
I went to an explicitly Catholic Kindergarten and that one never put up a tree.
This is right wing culture war backlash. The tree and the protest at the courthouse (with the "clever" slogans) are a demonstration of dominance and an implied thread: "There is only the white Christian way of life in this country and you *will* submit to it"
In this era, I'd be slightly surprised if the bomb-squad wasn't called in to the kindergarten, to make sure that none of the presents were "more energetically exciting" than desired.
Well, we aren't the USA where you have to expect something like that.
German childcare professional here, let me give my professional opinion on it (my personal opinion actually differs a bit, but part of the profession is to keep the personal and the professional opinion separated)
I believe the way that childcare handles it is probably the best way to go about it: They have put some decorations up for the festivities (probably decorations which dont create a huge mess and arent much work to put up or remove them again) but they asked the children whether or not they should have a christmas tree. Not only is the word "participation" is probably the one I heard and used the most during college but each state also has a book published which we are legally required to base every decision we make while working with children on and the book in my state can be roughly summed up with one sentence: "look at what the children need and want and act accordingly".
If the children want a christmas tree you can expect them to help decorate it, turning it into a learning experience. If they dont want one its just additional workload which doesnt serve much purpose for our main goal of helping the children grow their personailites.
Id like to add that with the exception of religios kindergarten we dont celebrate religious holidays because of our belives, but because where picking up whats happening in the childrens lives. We celebrate christmas and easter because thats the topic occupying most of the childrens thoughts during that times but I also celebrated the muslim sugar feast once because we had a large group of muslim children. I understand if parents have the expectation that the kindergarten celebrates their religious festivities since its tradition but if they dont put their children in a religious kindergarten they arent entitled to it and they most certainly arent entitled to the celebration happening in a specific way and with specific decorations.
edit: found some spelling and grammar errors and fixed them. If you find any feel free to point them out so I can improve my english skills.
i like to hear that other cultures/religions festivities are recognised and celebrated. To celebrate sugar feast for example is a good way of helping prevent islamophobia, or for other festivities their discrimination in general. You tend to discriminate things les if you had positive experiences with them.
There are too many minor errors to go through, often with punctuation, but rather well done.
Learn about the apostrophe and do not use contractions in writing. Also, the word you wanted was "beliefs".
There is a Southpark episode about aggressively democratising a preschool class
@@RegenTonnenEnte people trying to argue against people who studied a topic by saying "theres an episode of xyz about this" will never not be funny
@winund8088 what do you mean argue against?
It's already tradition that somebody in Italy has to say something about the christmas decorations, or lack of, in schools or other non public places. And usually it isn't the parents of the children, but some ass politician ...
I like that they let the kids decide
Regarding the trespassing, I know that in several countries public schools designate their outdoor property (playground, soccer field, running track, little patch of grass with some trees, whatever they might have) as a public space outside of school hours, though as I understand this is a private kindergarten?
Difficult...people generally don't like change, or quite possibly are afraid of it - so the perception of something being taken away from them (yes, perception, bc obviously this Kindergarten didn't necessarily have a tree in the past) can easily lead to projecting that onto people from non-christmasy cultures - which now that an election is coming up is always a bit more problematic than it would otherwise be. On the other hand its not like those who do not want a tree can't make that connection and decide how to treat it themselves - after all the Kindergarten seems to put it up for a vote...
Still at least we can probably all agree breaking into a Kindergarten for whatever reason is creepy and just shouldn't be done - even if you leave something there...
Have you ever heard of the german tradition of the "Maibaum" (May Tree) on which on a certain day (Valentines day I think) in the night you get a Maibaum and bring to your girlfriends garden, house or place of living and protect the Maibaum until the next morning. But actually you get drunk (very), Break into someones garden and steal one, then bring it to your girlfriend, fall asleep only for it to be stolen or your girlfriend thinking someone else brought it to her.
or better yet, you tie the tree to a street-sign in a densely populated area so now nobody knows who brought it and for whom it was intended (bonus point if it's in the wrong street)
The Maibaum obviously gets erected in May, hence the name. Valentines day us in february...
(Technically, it gets erected on the last day of April, but thats the night to 1st May... Anyhow, the date is in the name)
@@535phobosAnd at least in Schleswig Holstein, it is for whole villages who build tree theft crews for that night 😆
I got into a weird kind of rewboss addiction for some reason
Also, ERSTER!!
This man is the Grinch from a parallel universe.
…and after having been a subscriber for quite a long time, I finally found out why your channel is called reboss 🤣
It takes a specific kind of entitled douche to ignore a decision _that was made with the kids_ because he prefers celebrating differently
It was not the Kid's decision. It's the teachers who push the kids to follow their political agenda. Of course the kids want a fu*ing tree!
What wasn't mentioned: At the end, the christmas tree has to be brought to some "disposal place". You need to cut it into peaces which causes much dirt where you cut it (needles falling down) and/or a bigger car (which also will get dirty if the bags get damaged by the tree or no bag at all is used) or a trailer (not everybody can "rent" one for free). And in a kindergarten, probably somebody wants to bei paid for that. In worst case, candles come to close to the dry tree for some reasons, e.g. small children or animals (especially if the tree doesn't get water) -> burns very well... So before bringing somebody such a gift, you really should talk with him, if it makes sense...
In most places in germany the municipal waste service or the fire departement or even some youth clubs collect the old trees called "christbaumsammlung". I don't really see an issue with dirt if the tree was placed outside.
Or you could just put it up, decorate it and have some nice christmas spirit in the kindergarten.
@@anonb315 It must be at the right moment at the sidewalk, maybe while the staff is in vacation. To early = unnecessary problem for pedestrians. And in general you can slip out on the fallen needles, if there're many of them on like a sidewalk and if there're wet like by rain. And it needs a place. Where the children may play is a bad idea since they could do stupid things with it. Or big children who also like to put garbage on fire...
@@youtubekommentar5494 Look outside. Many trees loose their leaves in the winter. Better not leave the house if you are worrid about slippery leaves on the sidewalks.
And I guess we should also ban all trash cans, if big children like to put garbage on fire...
There shouldn't be any live, real candles in a kindergarden, nor by law!
Stupid people doing stupid things. I wonder how the guy would like it if someone dumped some rubbish on his property and he had to pay for the disposal costs.
By the way, don't forget that only the criminal proceedings have been discussed. The civil action for damages is still pending.
I, personally, don't like Christmas trees, but rubbish??
Doesn't that take some weeks?
EIn "Betreten verboten" Schild am Kindergarten wäre auch etwas... merkwürdig.
Ein Schild mit Geschäftszeiten und ein "Betreten verboten" außerhalb dieser Zeiten ist aber nicht unüblich. Trotzdem reicht aber eine Einfriedung.
In Bremerhaven, most kimdergartens have quite high fences, and gates that are kept locked most of the time.
Don't ask me why.
Funky.
But it's nice that they let the kids decide.
He was on trial for Treepassing
So, a German's Haus is even more of a Burg than an Englishman's home is his castle!
"Burg" and "castle" do indeed have some overlap, but they're not the same. A Burg is stronger in terms of fortification and keeping people out. 😂
@@ropeburn6684 I think that was my point! I did consider both Schloss and Festung, neither of which suited the saying as well (in my opinion). Can you offer a better lexical match?
@@davidchilds9590 I'm afraid there isn't a definite answer. There's castle and fortress in English, but Schloss, Burg and Festung in German. Only Festung and Fortress are direct equivalents; anything less fortified differs slightly between the two languages.
A burg should also be a fortification in English too. They were built by the Saxon kings to protect from the Viking raiders.
@@robertjarman3703 the thing is: a Burg can also be a castle, just a well fortified one. The lines are definitely blurry between those terms.
He was going for the mentally handicapped defense. "I don't understand how the world works"
A cheerful and jolly vigilante
This whole story is beyond satire! Is trespass a criminal matter rather than a civil one in Germany?
Belief that you have implied consent to enter land to make a delivery sounds a pretty sound defence to trespass.
That was the defence, but the court didn't accept it. The guy wasn't a courier who had been asked to deliver anything, neither had anyone given him permission. The property was fenced off and the gate closed, the defendant had no legitimate reason to be there, it is not credible that he genuinely thought he'd been given consent.
@ I think unsolicited non-professional gift delivery should still be legally sound. Likewise, unlocked gates don’t necessarily indicate the lack of implied consent.
He does seem to fall down on the facts, but I think you’re a bit too dismissive of the legal position.
@DanielsPolitics1 The court ruled that the gate was a clear indication that there was no consent, implied or otherwise. After all, if you catch me prowling around your garden in the middle of the night, you could call the police: I can't defend myself by saying, "I just wanted to deliver this fertilizer and fuel oil, and the gate wasn't locked and bolted."
Maybe that argument will work in your country, but as this case demonstrates, it doesn't in Germany. The legal position is that the defendant in this case is guilty of trespass.
This reminds me of Home Alone 3 when he's wondering why the burglars haven't taken anything, and he deduces (correctly) that they must be looking for something specific
Don't worry. You can just swipe the tree from the town square and put it on the top.of your yellow Mini like Mr Bean. Don't forget to write down the mass of the turkey down to the gram so you can give a good dinner to your girlfriend.
❓
Aber wo soll Ich dann meine geflügelte Jahresendfigur drauf stellen? :D
Wenn die stehen kann: aufn Schrank?
Wen nicht: aufn Besenstiel?.
@@B.Ies_T.Nduhey vielleicht auf ein Winkelement?
@@clancykohl
Auf den Hut!
The funnniest part was your slip with the Pounds at the end.
"Some of them were wearing bsbnsdluh+&¤" - that's an interesting dress choice... 😀
This story starts funny and then just keeps getting darker.
(In Poland arguments over Christmas trees are older than me, and they have mainly to do with the fact that having a Christmas tree generally tends to involve killing a tree, so a lot of people including myself feel it's not a tradition worth keeping)
The trees are "produced" for the occasion. If nobody bought them, they would not be grown.
Which means free space for something else.
In Croatia we also have artificial Christmas trees. They are made of some kind of plastic and you can close the branches and store the tree it in the attic outside of Christmas season. Are they not available in Poland?
@@mickimickiok, good. We don't need to waste perfectly good acres of land to grow "disposable" trees when they can grow a real forest or at least something useful
@@mickimicki Which took some years though
It's a good thing none of the major religions are known for forcing other people to adopt their beliefs.
Schade, dass das neue Video "How I record commentary tracks" ein member exclusive ist. Hätte mich wirklich sehr interessiert.
Hello Andrew I'm guessing, all my friends at college says that I look like you. They say you are an older version of me that's a time Traveler. Anyways nice content
Oh and I had to laugh hardly at the thought of someone entering the courtroom to support the defendant dressed as a Christmas tree. Would've loved to see the judge's reaction. They nay have wondered where the camera is hidden
The _tree_ did not enter, defendant was dressed as gardener
I guess there are quite a few people out there who enjoy Christmas and all its ceremonies and still see not sense in cutting a tree just to throw it one the boardwalk a fortnight later.
Although plasticky, there are reusable decorations. Not everything is „war on Christmas“🎄.
I've been told this story a bit differently. In my version, the kindergarten would usually have had a tree, but many Muslim parents protested against it, and the kindergarten complied with their demands. The convicted gardener refused to accept this, citing older rights tied to national culture or something similar, and placed the tree there as his own form of rebellion.
Well, that's not what the kindergarten or the police are saying.
@@rewboss Would you mind giving me your sources so I can look it up myself?
@@wassollderscheiss33 The official website of the kindergarten itself finkenau.de/2024/rund-um-den-weihnachtsbaum/ and multiple news articles and lawyers' blogs (the text of the court ruling is not yet public, but has been quoted in the media).
What are your sources?
@@rewboss Thanks. Your sources are good, and I don't clearly remember mine. I just came across an article in BILD titled "Eltern empört! Kita streicht Weihnachtsbaum," dated 07.12.2023. That article implies that Christian traditions were banned by the kindergarten and that Christianity itself was somehow considered incompatible with freedom of religion ("[...] die Eltern in einem Schreiben der Kita-Leitung über eine neue Regelung informiert: keine christlichen Feste, Weihnachtsbaum als ‚Symbol‘ gestrichen. Warum das? Im Sinne der Religionsfreiheit!"). It is very much possible that I did have other sources back then.
@@wassollderscheiss33 Bild is a sensationalist tabloid known for spreading misinformation.
The "there was a gate" argument doesn't fully convinc me.
Yes, usually even a symbolic obstacle like a fance you can step over is enough to make a property protected ("befriedet"), BUT in case of an Kindergarden, the mainpurpose of the fance and gate is to keep the children inside the property, not people out.
In the end I think he was trespassing, but 3k is a way to high penalty, especially if you look at the penalties that are given in Germany usually nowerdays.
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks the "main purpose" of the fence and gate are. It's clearly not a public space, and the kindergarten has the legal right to decide who has and who hasn't permission to enter it. After all, it's a kindergarten: there's a reason they might want to deny permission to random middle-aged men who aren't dropping off or picking up their kids.
The fine probably ended up being so high because the defendant doubled down hard on patently bogus legal arguments and showed a lack of respect for the court. There's also a suspicion -- which I chose not to comment on in the video -- that he instigated the whole thing as a publicity stunt to promote his own business. The fine is, incidentally, calculated in day-fines, one day-fine being the amount of income the defendant receives on average in one day. For simple trespass, the fine is up to 15 day-fines, which is half a month's salary.
I mean, according to multiple sources they were inundated by hate messages online and have had multiple people trespass on their property during that time. They claimed that this was interpreted as a provocation.
Viral marketing gone wrong?
This isnt about a tree. Its about "the great replacement theory". School staff didnt see a gift, they saw a threat from christianity.
They saw somebody trespassing on property belonging to a kindergarten. You do understand why having adult male strangers breaking into a place where there are young children is not a good thing, right? As the court said, had he left the tree outside the property, there wouldn't have been an issue.
oh, I did laugh. 😄
I agree with the kindergarten, no x-mas tree, stop the senseless annual mass murder of trees!
But, but, isn't the "Christmas" tree a holdover from the pagan festival of Yule (no idea its German name)? Was the tree voted down by fundamentalist Christians?
That people actually seem to think that it is ok do enter other peoples property without any form of permission enrages me. Yes that is probably not what was going on here but still. We had often people wandering into the buldings of our farm and especially the cold storage bulding. Which by the way if we had to ventilate the Storage units at that time because of Carbon-Monoxide buildup would have possible meant that we had to explain why we have dead people in our building.
The funniest thing is that the people claiming it's a-ok to trespass on that property are people who'd claim to be trying to keep the kids safe.
1. This was a non-religious kindergarten, so you don't have to celebrate Advent and Christmas either. The kindergarten had selfmade Advent window decorations.
2. The Christmas tree is actually only put up at Christmas and not during Advent. Anyone who really wants to have one and thinks it's part of Christian culture doesn't know anything about Christianity.
and it's a nice tradition but not a central tenet of Christianity. many more devout Christians don't like the Pagan roots or the out-and-out consumerism around the gifts
Why would a kindergarten have a Christmas tree even if it was in a super Christian country with only "Christian kids"? It just feels like that would be a disaster both for the kids and the staff. All the needles and curious toddlers😱
That this case wasn't immediately thrown out by the judge is depressing.
Trespassing is trespassing, if the owner of the land chooses to pursue legal action, that is what it is. And they only pursued legal action, because of the threats. So those nutjobs that decided to send threats to a Kindergarten are to blame. Otherwise it probably would have prompted nothing more than a raised eyebrow from the staff.
so they should prosecute trespassing, after the object got threats?
"You should not trespass". 16th commandment.
Lawsuit aside, I really doubt the intelligence of the people who left it up to *kindergarteners* to decide something like that. That in itself is worthy of Die Zwiebel.
It wasn't "left up to them". The kids were consulted on the matter. that's all. And why do you think they shouldn't be allowed to have a say on such a trivial matter?
@@rewboss I mean, these are 4-5 year olds. Do you really expect them to understand the significance of the decision they're making? Especially when it comes to divisive topics such as religion? Not that I'm saying children should have no autonomy at all. Just that they can't really make informed decisions. And thus, important decisions shouldn't be left up to them.
@@feynstein1004What significance? This has never been a problem before for the kindergarten, and the only people who have a problem with it are adults. The children aren't making any decisions that affect anyone except themselves: should the Christmas decorations include a tree?
That's it: that's all they're making a decision on. The whole place was decked out in Christmas decorations they'd made themselves, they just decided not to have a tree. It's not an important decision at all, seriously.
@@feynstein1004which significance does ot have? near to none, just if there is a decorated tree or not.
@@rewboss Lol calm down, man. I'm just playing the Devil's advocate to try and deescalate the situation. I mean, it's not me you have to convince. I don't even care about this stuff. But for some people, tradition and rituals are quite important, especially when it comes to public spaces and the next generation. Admittedly the person in question handled it quite badly but that was just a symptom of an underlying problem, that of people wanting immigrants to adapt to their culture and not the other way around. Again, I don't care about it and I guess you don't either, but a lot of people do. Which makes it a sensitive topic and thus imo shouldn't be left up to children.
Someone else pointed out in the comments that having a large tree with pointy needles in the vicinity of small children might not be the best idea and I fully agree but again, when people feel like their culture/way of life is threatened, they tend to behave irrationally. It's just human nature. Not that I'm trying to justify what happened. Just saying that delicate things like this should be handled.......well, delicately.
So that Kindergarten is not German anymore.
First of all, i would say Christian and not German as nowadays most clear thinking people dont trust in a magic man high up in the sky and second of all, there was Christmas Decoration, just not a tree?
@@snakkzethe tree is a pagan tradition, Christians adopted it to help with the spread of christendom in the Germanic lands
Scheiße. Wie kommt man denn auf so einen Müll?
A 3,000€ fine for trespassing without doing any damage seems pretty steep. Seems to me that the court was really trying to punish the good man for something else. Don't think it will hold up in an appeal.
Just looked this up as I'm obviously not a lawyer - Hausfriedensbruch (§123 StGB) carries a sentence of up to 1 year in jail or a fine, and it's only prosecuted if charges are pressed.
Context matters. If "good people" wouldn't have threatened the kindergarden, the fine would have been likely lower.
@@igel9316 My point is that only the defendant's actions/their consequences/his own intentions should matter in court, not what someone else did.
In Germany, fines for crimes (unlike fines for petty offenses) are proportional to one's income. You are fined a certain number of days' income. So for a (presumably somewhat successful - he could, after all, afford to "donate" a christmas tree with presents) business owner, a 3000€ fine is not really all that much, probably 30 days or less.
@@igel9316 did he threaten the kindergarten? If he is to be believed, he was unaware of the specifics of the situation and thought they were unable to afford a tree.
I do think you should have mentioned that the Kindergarten said that they didn't want to exclude anyone. The issue that people had here was that it was implied that christmas trees are exclusionary
That's how it was reported, but I didn't actually find that statement anywhere. I did find a statement saying that, in accordance with the official guidelines, they felt their mission involved teaching children about other cutural traditions in addition to Christian festivals.
@@rewboss Well, at least it isn't Oliver Cromwell's parliament who banned Christmas.
Honestly none of that is even particularly relevant. It could have been a Satanist kindergarden out to corrupt all children and destroy Christmas forever and it still would have been trespassing ...
I am now an atheist, but I grew up in one of those rare branches of Christianity that doesn't do Christmas at all (not even as a religious celebration). I can tell you that Christmas trees are exclusionary.
@@qwertyTRiG Okay, look: I'm on the kindergarten's side here; but if having a Christmas tree is exclusionary, then not having a Christmas tree is also exclusionary by exactly the same logic.
Every decision you make collectively is going to please some people and upset others: that's just how life is. Most years that kindergarten doesn't have a tree and those who wanted one have to deal with it. Some years it does have a tree and those who didn't want one have to deal with it. That's a really important life lesson for anyone who wants to live in a free society, and I think we all do. We all have very different needs and wants, and none of us can have all of our wants met all of the time.
Interesting. In my country if there is no boundary that is "uncrossable by common techniques", there is no trespassing. An unlocked gate is definitely not such a boundary. I mean, children's parks (which are public places) have fences and unlocked gates, and you can freely enter/leave. They have the gate only so that smaller children couldn't get out.
It is private property. Looked gate or not. A playground open to the public has a sign that says it's public.
@@enno9612 I understand that it is different in Germany. Here if a private property is not locked, then entering it is not trespassing.
I would be extremely surprised if it's totally legal to pitch a tent on somebody's lawn if they don't bother to lock the gate.
@@rewboss It is. You can assume that you are welcome there. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave of course.
@@Tresorthas Are you sure about that? Which jurisdiction is that? Can you point me to a law or a court ruling?
3000€ for trespassing private property? Well, things are quite different in my country.... if you are, let's say, the "right kind" of trespasser.
He could have had it much cheaper, just pay a much lower fine imposed by authorities and that would have been it. Instead, he insisted to have his day in court.
Cringe liberal Kindergarden
The day care decided with the children to not have a tree. They still decorate christmassy. They then worded a letter to the parents not quite correctly explaining their culturally sensitive position as a non religious day care. This created a huge shitstorm (twice now) that led to multiple trespasses on the property and occupying the employees with things other than caring for children. And then this guy wanted to do a cheap PR stunt with this.
But it's the day care that's "cringe". Sure bud.
Cringe Ruzzian bot
So anyone stepping onto private property that had its gate open prior to the “trespassing” can now be fined? Is that what this is all about?
Anyone entering private property without permission, or who refuses to leave when asked to do so, can be reported to the police and prosecuted. That's what "trespass" is: it's what it's always been.
That’s the private bit of private property yes.
Our * guests* in Germany are making us feel unsafe don’t respect our way of living.. I can’t go out at night alone ..
Liar!
@ excuse me?
@ lebst du hier
you're right, germans account for the majority of crimes. we should deport all germans to Luxemburg.
Wenn du mal ein bisschen recherchiert hättest., wüsstest du, dass alle KiTas dieses Trägers seit fast 50 Jahren jedes Jahr mit den Kindern abstimmen, wie genau die Kita dekoriert werden soll. Manchmal mit Baum, manchmal ohne, aber immer weihnachtlich. Auch diese KiTa hatte in einigen Jahren einen Baum und in den anderen Jahren nicht, und war ansonsten (mit Baum ode rohne) weihnachtlich geschmückt. Und es wird dort weiterhin Weihnachten gefeiert. Näheres findest du auf Finkenau punkt de
Vielleicht hilft das ja deinem angeschlagenen Sicherheitsgefühl wenigstens ein bisschen wieder auf die Beine.
I think there should be no discussion wether there is a christmas tree or not. We live in german, here it is tradition, here it is culture, if you are at a german Kindergarten there should be a christmas tree.
That's your opinion. I belive we should stop cutting down trees to let them die in our homes al together. I do not see why a kindergarden needs a cristmas tree.
And before someone says, it's up to them. On one seide, Yes, it is. On the other side, this is kinda not private. And I miself are shocked anytime I hear about a german tradition I have never hear before. AIn my opinion, all these stuff SHOULD be casual while growing up however. Or else these cultural bits and peaces might get lost over time. So having a christmas tree is not up for debate, if you are not in your own private space and decorate for a holyday or event.
@@Mike518Mike My aunt has a life size plastic tree which looks convincingly realistic, if you don't inpeckt it on close up. And it gets decorated every year.
So there are alternatives to real trees.
WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU to decide what other people do or not do? It is a fucking tree... some people buy one others don't. If you want one buy one for yourself.
There are many reason not to buy one and IT IS DEFINETLY A PRIVATE THING. We live in a democracy we decide if we want to take part in a tradition or not.
@@FelanLP You're just contradicting yourself there. Should it be casual and everybody gets to decide for themself or should there be no discussion and everybody is required to have one? You can't have both.
If a kindergarten respects the cultures and views of others so much... then why do they decide to remove an object important to the celebration of Christmas to many people? It is baffling to me. Is there any religion, conviction or worldview that hates Christmas trees in particular? Lol. The world is going madder by the day
EDIT: My apologies. I thought the kindergarten removed a Christmas tree for some reason. Rather, they simply did not procure one. I stand corrected.
Because the kids decided they don't want one. Did you even watch the video?
@@Llortnerof Of course OP didn't watch the video. Or ignored anything that was inconvenient.
I find that the xenophobes do that more and more often everyday, don't you?
Also technically not removed, but not procured in the first place. And yes, apparently there are even branches of Christianity that don't celebrate Christmas, or don't get a tree.
I did watch the video. I just wonder why you would let kids decide about removing a Christmas accessory in the first place in a kindergarten. And a xenophobe? Whatever did I say that makes me a xenophobe? It's rude to call others unfounded insults.
@@clancykohl You have a point. But I doubt the majority of the children who decided on not procuring the tree were of a Christian denomination that sees Christmas trees or the celebration of Christmas as undesirable. I could be wrong though. Also, even if the kids were part of such a denomination..they're kindergarten-age kids. I don't think they have any interest in such abstractions.
At least you are respectful enough to correct me in a friendly manner!
I think Germans would be wise to keep Christmas low key so nobody feels offended.
What are you on about? The country has a huge christmas market industry!
@DangerSquiggles It does, but it also has an ever increasing crime wave of stabbings and vehicle attacks. Christians and Jews have a high chance of being attacked when they display their faith. Sign of the times.
I think everyone who doesn't like our traditions, while in no way obliged to take part, should leave it be and STFU or else leave the country.🎄
What is happening to my Germany is disgusting
Jup, I am ashamed that not even 100 years later attacking and blaming minoritys for all of our countrys problems is mainstream again.
And yes this is the "NAZIkeule".
You earned it.
True! Criminals trespassing on the property of a kindergarten to make political statements is disgusting.
@ lol 😂 that’s so dumb
Yes, the rise in intolerance and childish obsession with outdated nationalistic ideas really is concerning
It is shameful that we ; not even 100 years later; returned to blaming "the others" for problems in our country.
The overreaction and hysteria surrounding the "cultur war" is insane.
I find the school (kindergarten) to be totally at fault here. They should have just accepted the tree and placed it somewhere on their property without worrying if it had some sort of threat attached to it. I also find that the school has gone too far left in trying to accommodate the immigrant children instead of showing them how to integrate into the German culture.
So they are at fault because a random guy doesn't accept what the team of the kindergarten and the parents decided and BROKE THE LAW because of it?!? Are you serious?
What is it with people and fucking trees that this became such a big story they had other christmas decoration just not a tree.
Also worrying about potentional threats is their fucking job especially when the kindergarten got several threats in the past years.
@@enno9612Exactly. The crime isn't the tree, the crime is -Breaking and Entering- Trespassing on private property.
The fact that the tree was harmless wouldn't have been known to staff when they found it. But regardless, as the prosecutor said, there wouldn't have been a criminal trial if he'd left the tree _outside_ -- at most he'd have got a small fine for littering, but wouldn't have been convicted of a crime. The crime was trespass, and yes, there are really good reasons why kindergartens don't want random men on their properties.
And as for "trying to accommodate the immigrant children", as I said in the video, the kindergarten still celebrated Christmas and still had Christmas decorations up. The only thing they didn't have was a tree. One of the great things about this country is that, unlike a few of the countries some of these children come from, we have the _freedom_ to decide for ourselves how we decorate our homes and our institutions, we have the _freedom_ to decide (within the confines of the law) what cultural traditions we want to follow. If you want a Christmas tree, you can have one; if you don't want a Christmas tree, you don't have to have one. Nobody is compelled to follow any tradition or any religion they don't want to.
That's the only thing the kindergarten was doing here: making its own decisions. The children were consulted, a democratic decision was made (you know, democracy, another one of those things we value in our society). Nothing the kindergarten did violated any democratic principles, or any laws.