I think you're hyperfocusing on availability and not what these units can actually do when they're around. For example Subaki is in A tier when he's C tier at best imo. His stats just are not great. On the opposite end we have Fuga, who I think you're underating alot. His stats are on par with Ryoma and Xander. He just is missing a really good prf weapon. He's an absolute monster with the best weapon ranks in whole game. I think he's around enough to land into B tier. There's alot here that is just off to me. Like Satsuna for another example. She actually has pretty good stats when she joins and is definitely usable. So is Niles imo (Shura overshadows him by a mile though). Btw I did still enjoy the video, just a little surprised at some of the placements
That's all fair. I will admit I have only played Revelations about one and a half times (the second time through I got so bored I put it down and never ended up finishing). So while these are my gut impressions it doesn't mean they're necessarily very accurate.
Yeah Subaki is just not that good tbh, he's actually one of the weakest units on my team as of right now, I don't want to bench him tho because I'm going to marry him to Selena so I can get Caeldori. But he's just a mediocre unit overall.
I know this is a rapid fire tier list, but some things are flat out wrong. There's no world, a playstyle, a type of playthrough (be it casual, iron-man or LTC) where Elise is better than Sakura. Sakura joins very early and is one of the few units that can contribute at base, one of the few long-term units in Rev and is one of the most flexible - she can work as either physical or magical unit. Elise on the other hand joins much later in a chapter where every single enemy besides Benny one-shots her on Hard, let alone Lunatic. This makes taking advantage of her skill incredibly difficult. And if you want Strategist, then Jakob/Felicia are available from the start so what does Elise brings to the team at this point? Even late joining Felicia can contribute more, thanks to being just 2 lvls away from Inspiration, while Elise needs minimum of 17 lvls to get there, which is a lot to ask at this point of the game. Another one is Hinoka - if Azama and Setsuna are E and F tier, then she should be no higher than D. Her speed and res are good, everything else ranges from mediocre to outright tragic - 24 hp and 12 defense means if she ever unequips Guard Naginata, she'll get blasted to kingdom come and the need for flier utility is mostly gone by this point, so just like Elise, she doesn't bring much to the team besides her skill, which is easier to utilize than with Elise. I would harp on Leo as well, but he's just underwhelming and closer to B tier. Reina is not a B tier - she's one of the best units in ch11, the best in ch12 and holds her own pretty much until near the end of the game where she starts having durability issues. Other than that she's fantastic so not putting her in S tier, not to mention below Elise, is a crime. Subaki in A is a bit high, though he is the only flier when flying is the most useful so i can see it. Kaze is also too high. Unless you give him like 5 lvls in ch4 and 5, he's going to struggle and is unlikely to be better than Saizo by the time the latter joins. Hana does not belong in the same tier as Oboro - she's bad. Yeah Sunrise Katana does give her good avoid, but Fates uses single rn for < 50% hit rates and in terms of bulk Hana is made of tissue paper so it's like relying on Lyn to dodge tank, except much less reliable. Even with Duelist Blow active, Hana can't take a single hit from most enemies, so when she gets hit, she dies. Oboro on the other hand is solid all around at base, flexible in terms of reclassing and is very good long term. How is Silas "not great"? In Rev he has personal bases comparable to Xander, while being unpromoted at lvl 18. In few lvls he surpasses Xander and by the time the latter joins the only thing he has over Silas is Siegfried (which to be fair still makes Xander better). Though Silas has more support options and more availability. Even if he's diet Xander, that's really good so if Xander is S tier, Silas should be as well. Hayato is significantly better in Rev compared to BR and he doesn't take long to grow into something good - he's already pretty decent at base so you don't have to go out of your way to train him. While he doesn't hit as hard as Orochi, he's also much faster and bulkier on physical side so his enemy phase is better. He's not a superstar, but it makes no sense for him to be in the same tier as Effie and Arthur - he's way better than them. Last thing would be Selena, Kaden and Keaton being too low - they're much better than other units in their tiers. For everyone else i can see placing them in those tiers in one context or another.
Lets get it bro. Saizo is worse than kaze every single playthrough no CAP 100. his speed growth is nasty for his class and its 1 of 2 stats that ninjas need, and id rather have kaze doing 7 x2 than saizo doing 11 x1 any day. His base speed makes it so he literally cannot double anything even with the best speed pair ups until you increase his support with them. Saizo requires double the effort to become half as good as the other ninjas. Unless he gets crazy speed blessed, he aint being fielded past chapter 20. I can see him being good if you dont use the other ninjas, but if you rotate between them he will always be the weakest link. The lowest I would ever rate Kaze is the very top of A tier, and the highest i would ever rate saizo is low B tier. U darn right about hinoka. Shes just there to give children units red hair (lol!) also hayato should be top A tier, since his damage is really good from the start and never really falls off. I also dont think silas is S tier, mid/high A tier fits him better when looking at the S tier units. I feel like youre slightly undermining siegfried and overvaluing his availability. Silas is available for only 3 chapters before xander joins, and will almost always get outclassed by him unless you continue to feed him entire map worths of enemies after promotion. Yes he has really good bases and quickly promotes, but when comparing him to the other units in S tier, I feel like he is usually worse than most of them. His biggest problem is that he doesnt have the speed like every other S tier unit besides takumi, so his high strength isnt fully utilized like it is for units such as Ryoma or Camilla. He can hit harder and tank more than units like kaze and (sometimes) corrin, but his lack of good 1-2 range and personal weapons hurts the justification for putting him in S tier. His skills are also kind of L unless you pair him with corrin, but depending on his/her class, the support bonuses usually arent enough to make up for what hes lacking in speed or extra durability. Rev units also have a lot of HP, so silas will rarely 1 round unless you give him a backpack that can patch up his weak spots. Even then, putting someone like charlotte as his backpack is just wasted potential, since in no universe will he be tanking better than Xander with his niche personal skill and lack of siegfried. With how many ranged units there are in rev, siegfried alone separates xander from Silas utility-wise with its crazy stats on a crazy base man. Even if silas joins 3 chapters earlier, his shaky growths in certain stats make it harder to justify his placement with the top dawgs until around endgame. Most of the units in your army should be at least A tier by endgame though, and silas at that point will more than likely still be a step below the S tiers. The only S tier I could see being in A tier with him is takumi, only because of his personal weapon being locked to 2 range. I never reclass him to kinshi knight because more often than not, his only worthwhile stats are his strength and skill, and there are usually fliers that perform better than he would, like reina or camilla. His bow is crazy and can almost 1 shot master ninjas upon joining, but thats his bow being good. Personal weapons make the unit in this game, and is actually one of the reasons why I think leo should be S tier if takumi is. Yes his join time is late, but his decent bases and good tome make him pack a punch while also being able to take a beating. I cant say much for selena being better than child units apart from availability, but if both parents were trained, they'll probably outclass her in most aspects. It also doesnt help that kiragi is in C tier when hes almost always high A tier low S tier for me, so him being there along with sakura (whose rank is a crime) makes me more reluctant to say shes a tier above her peers. I usually just use her as a bow knight backpack for keaton (who should be mid-high A tier) and feed her equal exp if she gets good starting levels. I personally like samurai units and use hana and hinata even if they arent that good. offensively hana is top class, but that doesnt mean much when you see her HP and defense. hinata swaps hanas pros and cons, giving up strength and speed for hp and defense, so I can see your point with oboro being better than her (and hinata as well by comparison). Between the 2 furries though, i think kaden would be in the same tier as hana (usually b tier) since he has the exact same problems as her, sometimes even more-so since his weapon lowers his defense. Either way both kaden and hana either get 1 or 2 shot, but they are both offensively comparable. Keaton is closer to silas role-wise, probably doing silas' job better than he can, since keaton appears with very comparable bases despite joining 3 whole levels lower, not to mention his great defense and monstrous HP and strength growths. I agree with pretty much everything else you said about units like sakura and oboro, its just wild to me that units like effie, arthur, subaki, caeldori, and orochi wormed their way up to such high placements when realistically theyre all locked to E tier. Orochi and subaki are the only salvageable ones of the bunch, but even then they most likely will peak at mid C tier. I can see caeldori being better than all of them if you speedrun subaki S support, but its insanely tedious leveling him up to increase support ranks and give her better bases, since his strength and speed are so bad and wont get any better. Subaki players pop off when they see something besides Skl Lck Res (because we all know his res growth is a fib).
@@rockroy259 The main advantage Saizo has is his mixed offense, he's the only of the 3 ninjas with good magic and can alternate between physical and magical attacks when needed so it's not always str vs str comparison and with Kaze focusing on speed, every point of str he misses hurts a lot against bulky Rev enemies. If he stays on average he's going to be fine, but if he doesn't he'll struggle to perform at all. Saizo also has more physical bulk while never being slow enough to get doubled unless you send him against fast promoted enemies at base. I can see your point, though I value Saizo more in Rev because he's not as prone to get rng screwed as Kaze, who doesn't get auto leveled unlike Conquest, which makes every missed str lvl up hurts a lot, especially early on, while for Saizo's spd, like you said, he needs to get blessed to double consistently anyway so it doesn't matter until much later. With Silas it entirely depends how you approach it - if you want to use him just as a filler or shelter bot, then yeah he's not going to be stronger than Xander. At the same time if you're not feeding him a lot of kills - then who else? Rev doesn't exactly have stiff competition in that aspect, due to how underleveled and understatted almost everyone is. And even if you use him as a filler there's absolutely no reason to not deploy him every chapter. S tier might a bit too high, but high A tier at the very least. Having him lower than Hana, Hinoka, Beruka and Elise just doesn't make any sense. The shaky growths are exactly my issue with Kaze, the difference is that Silas is really good at base and even if he gets rng screwed it will make him worse, not unviable. Why would everyone be in A tier by the endgame? Most units can't get there without grinding and if we include that then making tier list at all is pointless. I cannot agree with Takumi/Leo assessment - Takumi's bow making him good doesn't change anything. It's exclusive to him, so it only makes sense to judge them together. Not promoting him to Kinshi is fine, it entirely depends on how he grows. Being locked to 2 range does suck, but it's a fair tradeoff for dealing so much damage. Leo is nowhere near as good - I would never put him in S tier in either route. He can tank ok and dish out damage ok, his bases are decent but none of them stand out. It doesn't help that most fast enemies deal physical damage, which unfortunately is his weaker stat, so while Silas can tank those hits with his superior defense or even grow enough speed to not get doubled at all, Leo will have to take both hits (or get spd pair-up). If he joined sooner i could see them being closer, but he joins right before enemies scale up considerably, which doesn't give him many opportunities to get out of his middling bases. I have no strong opinions on child units, since their performance can vary drastically so I was referring to Selena being better than Arthur, Effie, Benny and Charlotte. Being used as backpack when levels up turn bad can be applied universally though. Hana has 2 less strength and 2 less skill compared to Birthright and even there she's not that great, so they kneecaped her in Rev (technically they buffed her in Birthright but still). Once she gets going her offense is monstrous, but her bulk is tragic - without wiping out all enemies around her or sheltering her, she's dead. Kaden won't be one shot, because while his defense is low, his hp base and growth are pretty good. Hana has very low defense and she'll be lucky with 30 hp when she promotes. If she wasn't so horrendously bad at base (literally doing 0 damage in her join chapter) I would be fine with her being in B tier, but as is I would put her in low C, high D - you only get her out her bases if you want to use her, same as Mozu. and Kaden mid to high C. Hinata is fine for a while since his personal bases are quite good, but long term he's much worse than Oboro. He can be good if he turns out well, though it's unlikely cause for some reason he has one of the lowest growths in the game. Keaton compared to Silas has same str and slightly higher spd, everything else is either worse or much worse. They have similar spd tier, but Keaton's res is much lower so he's less flexible as a tank. As always his skill is the biggest issue. It is usually a dump stat until you don't have enough of it and Keaton has only ok base (most of which comes from his beaststone) and very low growth, which long term is a problem if he misses too many procs. It's not a dealbreaker, but it is something to keep in mind. He's still better than Kaden for sure though. Subaki in A tier may be a bit too high, but at the same time, unless you have Corrin with flier talent (or reclass Gunter), he's the only flier during Fuga's wild ride and you need him to recruit Saizo, Orochi and Reina on turn 1 so they don't die. As a combat unit he's not great for sure and long term he's very dubious, but at the same time there's not much competition early on and his contributions can't be replicated by anyone else without investment. I'd be fine with him being lower, but i don't mind his placement either.
@@Xertaron. The problem with kaden is that he has the same issues as hana does, in that he will still get 2 shot since dodge tanking is never reliable in fates. I do agree with high/mid C tier, only because he can perform well in the next couple of chapters after he joins. One thing to think about is: if one does use hana in their playthrough, 9 times out of 10 she will completely outclass kaden offensively. Plus the extra crit from promotion helps her snowball and pretty much 1 round anything she initiates combat against. I cant say the same for kaden unless hes going against an unpromoted archer or something, not to mention the lack of duelists blow to make his combat less scary. I personally have never gotten screwed over with kaze. I could see you not using him if you prefer immediate contributors instead of long term investment, but I cannot see Saizo ever being more helpful than kaze past the first three or so maps he joins. When it comes to kaze and leveling strength, it matters less when you take his speed into account, since he can wield stronger shurikens without losing double attacks. Forging shurikens can even make up for any strength screwed kaze you might get, and I would rather spend 1-3 quartz on a stronger shuriken for kaze than give Saizo exp. It could be subjective based on every run I tried to use him, but Saizo has always been a jack of some trades master of one. Yes he has magic, but odds are if he needs flame shuriken to do damage, that enemy isnt taking much physical damage from anyone. At that point, why not just field a mage whose entire purpose is to take out physically tanky enemies, than field a ninja who has C- offensive capabilities at best and F+ at worst? (Taking his lack of speed into account) Saizo is accurate. That's kind of it. Even in the bulk category he more often than not loses to kaze, since kaze has an entire 20% extra HP growth than Saizo. His base HP of 23 is only good because it's matched with his 9 defense, but that wont last long if he doesnt win a lot of HP and defense coin flips. His resistance is cheeks and will never get better, so not only will he have less HP than Kaze, but he can only tank 1 of 2 damage types because of the culmination of his ok HP and good defense. Kaze eats mages for breakfast; Saizo suicide bombs into them. Literally, with his skill. His personal skill is dog garbo and makes him an enemy phase exclusive ninja, which is quite possibly the worst role possible for a physical tank ninja, since physical units in Rev are more often than not scarier than the magic units. To make a comparison to Saizo's defensive capabilities, I would say he's like a Bounty paper towel. On the surface it seems like he can suck up damage with the big boys, but when the going gets tough he starts to tear and rips apart. While Saizo will not get doubled, he will never double, even with a speed pair up can only perform against the slowest of units, and doesnt do enough damage to actually contribute post chapter 15. Saizo himself only has 10% higher strength growth than kaze, so realistically (if youre fielding kaze) they will be equal on all fronts besides speed, luck, and defense, with Saizo losing the most important comparison: speed. Units like Takumi compared to Saizo are like: "You have shurikens (+2 btw speed lol) and will never double. I have the Fujin Yumi and will never double. We aren't the same." Speed is what I would consider to be the most important stat on 80% of the cast, since only absolute powerhouses like Takumi and Xander can deal enough damage in one strike to make up for not doubling. Saizo, however, does not have a good weapon. Forging a good shuriken for him will be wasted, since at the end of the day it will not make up for his lackluster speed. I mean, hes already getting one-upped by little bro, but then he gets one-upped by his ex in the same chapter... Speaking of Takumi, lets get to my reason for Leo being S while Takumi (in a world where he gets strength screwed) being high A. Keep in mind most of my Leo experience is from Conquest Lunatic, where he's always without fail second only to Xander for best unit. Leo has Brynhildr which only has 4 less attack than Fujin Yumi, but has 1-2 range. That more than makes up for the damage difference in my opinion, not to mention the built-in Aegis lite that comes in handy against some of the scarier mages. You could argue that Takumi wins in the offensive battle, but I would rebuttle with that only being the case on player phase due to Quick Draw giving him +4 damage. Malefic Aura gives Leo +2 damage on both phases, so he is suited for both player and enemy phase playstyles. Most of the enemies are physical, which is precisely why he's so good. His damage output will more frequently be higher than Takumi's since his attacks scale with magic, and his decent growths in all three defensive stats and good bases make for a great well-rounded front line unit. As for his speed, I always like pairing him up with Felicia since she boosts his strongest points and patches up his weakest one. Felicia's support bonuses dont really benefit anyone else besides Hayato, and even then Leo has a lot more bulk than Hayato ever will. You could say that she makes a good pair up for Saizo to boost his flame shuriken damage, but at that point I would rather give it to Felicia since her magic will probably be better anyways, and she actually has the ability to double some enemies without needing to pair up. Also going back to what I said about Takumi only being good because of his bow, I was more so pointing to the fact that his personal weapon is a *bow*, which is the only ranged type in the game that is locked to 2 range. Shurikens/daggers and tomes/scrolls all have 1-2 range, and the only notable exception to bows is the shining bow. Leo and Takumi both have personal ranged weapons, but in order for Takumi to have the same ranged-melee capability as Leo, he would need either a DLC skill that takes a lot more effort than it's worth, or a mini bow/shining bow. Which is where you face the problem: Takumi *is* only good with his bow. Other bow users like Niles and Setsuna have speed on their side, while Takumi is more rounded and usually only gets good levels in one of two stats, being strength or speed. I've never had a Takumi that was strong and fast, and I've never had a Takumi that was fast and strong. Leo, however, already comes with the fixes that Takumi will almost never get nor want, since "Shining Bow Takumi" sounds like a build only people with 1000+ hours in the game would use. Keep in mind this isn't me trying to justify Takumi being a trash unit like some Fire emblem channels do for some reason, this is me comparing Leo with Takumi and why the former is more deserving of S rank than Takumi. Takumi excels in player phase combat, Leo can excel in both player and enemy phase combat, just as long as you bite the bullet and use him. If it was Conquest, I would place Niles in S tier, but usually the only archers you would use in Rev are Takumi and Kiragi. Same with Leo, there's not much competition for their roles: High power archer and bulky mage. I personally rank both of them S tier, just with Leo being higher. I get what you mean by ranking trained units is pointless. To rephrase it, basically I'm trying to say that Silas is overall an A tier unit, but while other units like Hana or Kaden are overall C tier units that have the *potential* to be A tier, Silas generally wont have the potential to be reach the same S tier that has the likes of Xander or Ryoma. That was my main point about Silas and I think we agree: He's a great unit that very much deserves A tier, but he's not *so* great that Xander should be bumped down from S tier due to similarities or vice versa. The thing about Keaton is that he will *always* have those extra stats with his weapon, so any level he gets in those stats will only snowball further. With Silas it's one and done without Defender, but +1 to all stats realistically is just a single perfect level. I pair bow knight Selena with Keaton to patch up his skill and speed issues, which in turn patches up Selena's strength and defense issues while further boosting her speed. Since Keaton will almost always have more speed than Silas, I find that it's a lot easier to patch up his greatest weaknesses than it is to patch up Silas's. Silas's speed, even with some levels and promotion gains, will most likely be no higher than 3 above Leo's base of 15. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the enemies in chapter 16 are fast enough to double 15 speed units. They also share the same speed growth, so if Silas isn't getting doubled, odds are Leo isn't either. Where Silas beats Leo in physical tanking, Leo will beat him in versatility, raw damage (refer to the 11th section), and magic tanking. Also, I would rate other fliers (specifically pegasus types) in FE games similarly to D tier subaki. I never really got the whole "flying versatility" thing, since pegasus knights generally have bottom tier combat and literally cant tank to save their lives. The whole "rescue potential" thing makes it seem like they're rated unnecessarily high for essentially being flying Merlinus without access to convoy. Fates was actually my introduction to the series in 2015, and I was omega soy and would do an entire revelations playthrough just to make children with different hair colors than my previous save files
@@rockroy259 9 times out of 10 Hana might outperform Kaden (she's not that much stronger to say she outclasses him) and that 1 out of 10 she'll die, because unlike him she can't take any physical hit. Yes Duelist Blow makes her harder to hit, but unless you stack so much avoid to reduce enemy hit to 0, you risk her life everytime she enters combat. She doesn't one round consistently until after she promotes and all that is after she gets feed a lot of exp to get going, because she can't do anything at base, while Kaden can - he has lower ceiling, but also a far higher floor. It's not just Kaze that is prone to get rng screwed, it goes for almost every unit joining between ch7-10 - if they get bad level ups and don't keep up with enemy curve, they'll keep falling behind. If he gets average to good level-ups then all is well, if he doesn't he'll struggle to contribute. If you have gold and materials to forge shurikens for him, then all is well, unless you don't, since what materials you get is random. And by that logic you can fix spd with meals and pairups. Saizo simply doesn't have these lingering questions, even if he's not as good as above average Kaze. I don't see what's wrong with being jack of all trades - Oboro is also master one and they both join early enough where they can grow into kings/queens of those trades. You don't use Saizo over your mage, having access to magic damage simply means he's not forced to combat low defense enemies. Kaze has 15% higher hp growth, but also 4 less at base so the difference is not as big as it sounds. Also why would you have Saizo fight mages in the first place? If it's fair to say that Saizo sucks against them, then it's also fair to say that Kaze gets yeeted by physical attacks, but that doesn't make him bad - it's not what he should be used for. Just because Saizo has better enemy phase than Kaze, doesn't mean you have to use him exclusively for that purpose - same as with his mixed offense, why would make it sound like a negative? Can his skill screw you over sometimes? Yes, but it can also help if you plan ahead and don't forget that he has it. It is true that it takes Saizo a while to start doubling consistently, but not as long as you make it seem. 20/1 Saizo averages 20.5 spd, which isn't bad by any means - he's only short of doubling the fastest enemies. And he can double with the help of pairups, meals or rallies. Spd is important, but it's also one of the easiest stats to fix. Kagero, while stronger, is very unreliable, constantly hovering around 70-80 hit rates, so I don't see how she one-ups Saizo - especially if spd is so important, they have the same base so what gives? Conquest Leo is not Rev Leo - in Conquest he joins in ch14 from turn 1 on a map where he can contribute a lot, in Rev he joins in ch17 on turn 2 away from your army where he's up against high res enemies that he deals little dmg to (except armor knights/generals). Having 1-2 range doesn't mean much when you're not a juggernaut like Xander or Ryoma. Brynhildr's skill benefit is minuscule since Leo already has high res - halving that isn't doing much unless it triggers against a crit, but Leo also has high dodge and even when he does get crit that Aegis effect is still random. Also, magical enemies usually have high res, so he's not doing much in return. Takumi can delete whatever you send him at on player phase, Leo can't do that. He has better enemy phase for sure, but he's mostly chipping enemies. His damage output will never be higher than Takumi's because A - he can't double anything besides the slowest enemies and B - his crit rate is significantly lower. So even if Takumi deals less damage against a certain enemy, he's more likely to double or just delete them with a crit. Leo's bases are fine in Conquest, in Rev they're barely ok. His growths are great, but he doesn't have time to grow since he can't contribute much in his joining chapter - he can't even one round generals, only armor knights - so you have to setup kills for him. And once again, if it's fine to fix Leo's spd with a pair-up then i don't see why is it such a problem with Saizo. If you deploy both Saizo and Felicia and want to use her for combat, then that is even better - you can trade Flame Shuriken whenever necessary or pair them up in case you need a little bit of extra damage. They also cover each others defensive weaknesses as an extra. Fates is a game where being locked to 2 range is the least detrimental, because most 1-2 range is bad, enemies hits hard, while tomes and shurikens have low might and most of their users have other downsides. Conquest showcases how stupidly powerful 1-2 range is on Takumi. The only unit that can use Shining Bow effectively is Anna, Niles and Shura can sometimes use it against low res enemies, but Setsuna has no magic whatsoever. And it's not an enemy phase weapon - it tanks avoid, which combined with meager bulk of it's users means 1-2 range doesn't change anything 95% of the time. So to conclude - it's not that Takumi is only good with his bow, it's that there's no reason not to use Fujin Yumi on him. If Niles or Setsuna could use it, the only other bow they would ever equip would be Illusory Yumi extra res and Mini-bow if they couldn't avoid fighting at 1 range. Also Takumi has 50% str and 55% spd as an archer, so i guess you got very unlucky. No, people with +1000 hours know that Shining Bow on Takumi is a stupid idea, because he doesn't need a "fix". You make it sound like Leo's player phase is almost as good as Takumi's, but they're not even close. Takumi has arguably the best player phase in the game, being capable of deleting most enemies, Leo can do ok damage on both phases, but that's about it. He's not killing anything that isn't already chipped and he's not figthing more than 1 or 2 enemies on enemy phase without dying. It's not about "biting the bullet", that could be said Hana, since there's no reason to use her unless you want to as it requires to go far out of your way to do so. Leo isn't bad at base, he can do chip damage, he (usually) can take a hit, he's an ok unit. But being ok is not enough for S tier. Sure he has good growths, but in Rev the only way to take advantage of them is you do all the paralogues in one go before entering Valla. Otherwise a lot of enemies double and nearly one round him there. Well it isn't Conquest and like I've been saying Leo is considerably worse in Rev. If you really want a bulky mage, then Hayato or even reclassed Camilla are better for that role. I've never suggested Xander should be bumped down from S tier, merely that Silas is almost as good as him so if anything they should be much closer on a tier list. As for potential - everyone can be S tier if you put your mind to it. The reason i would put Hana in D tier is not because she can't become very strong, but because she takes a lot of resources that could go to other units. If you do skirmishes, DLC and save all the paralogues right before entering Valla to maximize exp gain, then sure none of it matters and everyone can be in A or S tier, even Gunter. Keaton with those extra stats is still only winning with Silas in spd. That's one advantage he has and like i said spd is one of the easiest stats to patch up. I'm not saying he's bad, but Silas is generally going to be better. Also since when Selena struggles with def? She has very solid personal 6 base/45% growth, one of the highest in the game. Unless you insta promote i guess. In chapter 16 only Adventurers would double Leo. Would, because he doesn't join untill 17 where no enemies do, except Bow Knight on a balista, but that's the least of Leo's worries in this chapter. Silas has same spd growth, but he also joins earlier and in a chapter that doesn't hate him so their spd is not going to be the same. In ch18 a lot of enemies double Leo, but that's a small problem, spd is easy to fix like i said. However in combination with Seal Defense it's much more of issue since his def is just ok and it makes him get one rounded by... well a lot of enemies, but most notably Master Ninjas unless he has at least 21 spd and those spd thresholds only get higher each chapter. As for magic tanking, Onmyojis in ch18 have 20 spd and 38 atk, one rounding him at base. So his versatility doesn't mean much when he gets, at most, 2 shot by nearly everything - like i said, in Rev he's playing catch-up. Ok, so the thing with flying utility is allowing for plays that would otherwise be impossible to do. Fuga's wild ride (ch9) is a slog without a flier, because you get pushed around constantly, often into enemy's range, while a flier (in this case Subaki) can get everyone where they want to be much more conveniently. Then in ch11 he enables recruiting Saizo, Orochi and Reina on turn 1 by flying over the woods, saving you a lot of headache. Ch12 (the ships on the frozen sea) is all about flying utility as your grounded units are stuck on the boats until turn 6. That's why it's called utility, it has nothing to do with their combat performance. That's the thing with Merlinus - he doesn't fly. If he did his utility would skyrocket and let him rescue slower units like Hector, Oswin or Hawkeye closer to the frontline where they want to be. That's why fliers are so good, even if their combat is lackluster, they have their flying utility, which is valuable in Rev. In Birthright it's almost useless (with few exceptions like volcano chapter) because maps are mostly flat squares with little terrain so whether you fly or not doesn't matter.
@@Xertaron. I am starting to get upset because this is the third time I'm writing this due to youtube cancelling my replies for whatever reason. Anyway, Hana and Kaden are at the same mid C tier precisely because Hana takes more effort to train but becomes better, while Kaden takes less effort but will turn out worse (if you use both of them). One leg up Hana has over Kaden is weapon triangle bonuses, since Kaden's beast stone makes it so his hit/avoid is the same regardless of weapon type. Berserkers become plentiful in Valla and are enemies that have very few 1-range physical counters. Between the two, a promoted Hana vs a promoted Kaden, Hana would be the go-to pick for them. She has Duelist's blow, weapon triangle advantage, as well as the big swordmaster crit bonus. Kaden has none of these, and while Hana would get oneshot, she also will realistically only face a 4-13% hit rate. Kaden has to risk the crit however, since berserkers have massive HP, and Kaden's offense usually isnt good enough to 1-shot with a crit. Specifically, I would put Hana and Kaden right next to each other, maybe Kaden being 1 spot ahead. I dont get why you seem to trivialize Saizo's inability to fight mages. There are so many other units that you get around his join time that can do his job better, i.e. have decent offense while being physically tanky. By the time he joins, you already have Corrin, Subaki, Oboro, Hinata, and Reina that all have more HP and defense than him (Subaki has the same base 9 defense 2 chapters earlier and decent growths in both HP and defense). That's not even including the units that shortly follow, Beruka, Selena, Camilla, Kaden, and Keaton. All of them have either better HP or better defense than Saizo, a majority of them have better offense, save for maybe Selena, and will continue to be better than him in either of the categories. Saizo is only physically tanky because of his *defense*, not HP, so where Kaze would have beat in both HP and resistance, Saizo would be defensively stronger, but much slower. Saizo's "leg up" on kaze, being his "mixed offense" and "better bulk," dont actually apply when you consider his HP will be lower so he will have to rely on his defense more than his HP, his speed will be lower so some enemies might double him, he can only face 1 of 2 damage types, and his retaliation game is lackluster. Forging a shuriken for Kaze requires a lot less effort than fixing Saizo's speed, since forging is a more permanent fix. Saizo would need to win the RNG battle of eating the speed meal each time, and that's not even taking the resources into consideration. With ore, you can swap 5 of any to get 1 quartz, but the same cannot be done for food. Unless you get lucky with the starting farms, castle drops, or Keaton's skill, you will have to go to the arena to keep the speed food supply running. Forging is also less expensive over time, since you can forge an iron shuriken for a maximum of 1000 gold, whereas 150 gold would be spent on speed tonics each chapter just so Saizo can do what Kaze will have been doing for 3 chapters. Going back to resistance, Kaze is one of very few units that can face mages without taking decent damage on both physical and enemy phase, the only others I can think of being Niles, Orochi, Shura, and Leo. I think Kaze in revelations is the best of the bunch, unless you prefer prepromotes like Shura who wont really improve from their bases. Also, I mainly said kagero one-ups Saizo because she will instantly be better offensively in 1-2 level ups. Given fates RNG, I would rather have 76% hit rates while doing 17 x 2 than 100% hit rate while doing 12 or 15 x1 (depending on which damage type you decide to use for Saizo). Saizo's magic base is really bad considering his role as a mixed offensive unit, and kagero will swiftly beat him in the strength category. Since kagero officially joins you in the next chapter, Saizo's magic wont have grown enough for the damage to be comparable. I can concede that Leo isnt S tier like Takumi in revelations, but I never have enough justification to bench him when so few units tick the boxes he does. He's a bulky mounted unit who prioritizes magic, and the only other one I can think of is a promoted odin, but *nobody* should train odin over Leo in rev. Camilla's base magic is too low to justify using tomes over physical weapons, and her only other magic class is sorcerer. The reason I prefer pairing up Leo for speed over Saizo is because Leo focuses on magic, and his great HP and decent defense base are only negated because of his speed shaky speed. The thing about Saizo is: because he puts a little effort in both strength and magic, I find him slightly underwhelming in both. Even if his speed pair up allows him to double, his damage will be lower than Leo's against most enemies, unless you make Leo exclusively face sorcerers and paladins or something. I just cant see a world where you would rather use flame shuriken Saizo to fight a general or great knight over Leo. Side note, I think Felicia x Saizo is a one-sided relationship, since Saizo doesnt give her a single point of defense, whereas she gives him a butt load of resistance. I mainly meant Leo has decent player and enemy phase, whereas takumi only has player phase. Training both of them gives you an offensive powerhouse and a very well-rounded bulky magic unit. Reclassing him to a sorcerer would also help his speed and give him more magic, as well as allowing him to use nosferatu. Out of all magic units in Rev, Leo makes the best use of it by far, since Hayato utilizes his speed, and Orochi has *no* speed, so he would become a unit that cant double but wont get doubled, on top of being bulky enough and strong enough to take hits and heal afterwards. You can admit that sorcerer Leo would at least be A tier, no? He can immediately contribute better if you use a heart seal on him, and he can do that upon joining as well. As for Keaton patching up Selena's defense, its because while her defense growth is high, it most likely wont grow enough to matter given her low HP unless shes given support by the time promoted units appear. What do you mean Silas will usually be better? He will usually *never* be better. Keaton has better growths than Silas in *all three* stats Silas cares about, and he joins two chapters earlier since he's playable at the start of chapter 13, but Silas doesnt join you until chapter 15. Silas has 50% HP growth, 60% strength growth, and 50% defense growth. None of these will increase when he promotes unless you choose great knight, which even then will only make his defense growth equal. Keaton has 80% HP and strength growths, and 60% defense growth. His base HP and strength are nearly identical to Silas, and while his beastrune is the main reason for his good defense, he's going to outgrow silas anyway. Keaton is 3 levels behind Silas's base level when he joins in chapter 13, and his promotion gives him +3 to HP, strength, and defense. Silas' promotion gives him 2 to all of those, and if keaton is at level 18 at the start of chapter 15, the master seal is going to him no doubt about it. The reason I pointed out Xander and Silas's differences is because in your original comment, you said Silas would "surpass" Xander in only a few levels by the time Xander joins, and that him being a diet Xander justifies him being S tier as well. I mainly disagreed with this because the reverse would be the same: If we both say Silas should be A tier, yet you say Xander and Silas are so similar that Silas should be S tier, that would mean Xander should be A tier if Silas is not S tier. I don't think either of us actually think Xander and Silas are in the same tier even if they're both similar, but my response was based on your original framing. About Subaki being able to fly over the lake in chapter 12... what does this do for him exactly? It's not like he can use dragon veins or shelter, and his combat is generally still awful by that point, not to mention the fact that you can pair up all your units to be on the same boats like in Conquest chapter 21, so why would you ever field him over a good combat unit? I get the whole recruiting of Saizo in chapter 11, but you can also do the same with any other unit. You have to dance for Subaki regardless, and the only difference between him and using any other unit is that the ninja blocking the path would have to be taken out first. Is it really worth fielding a flying feather duster to recruit Saizo early, in turn making the rest of the map slightly harder since there's 1 less good combat unit, rather than taking an extra turn to recruit him with the same amount of problems? The only one of the group that moves is Reina who usually attacks the samurai, and the archer at the bottom can quickly be blocked off, so it's not like shes gonna die. The chest at the top right can also be reached with Reina anyway, so that's not exactly a point in Subaki's favor. All that being said, I started a playthrough a few weeks ago and got to chapter 18, but I might replay it and try a lot of the things mentioned in these replies. I'm mostly interested in magic Saizo with Felicia, but the "pride" of the ninja clan is usually dogwater for me so wish me luck
I like your lists a lot but I got say that was probably your weakest one. I think you're too hang up on availability and are not considering what the unit can offer when they're present. Also revelations is the route you can go the most crazy with possibilities because of friendship seals (Xander and Ryoma can trade classes with each other to pick up skills and get even more broken for example). And it also helps that you can grind if needed (unlike Conquest).
I'd put sakura in at least A, she has way too many options - Elise support to pick up inspiration and demoiselle which I think stack with her personal skill - Hayato to pick up rend heaven, pretty good for her as a priestess with shining bow when her strength is passable. - she can pick up multiple rally skills through elise, Corrin and her own class line for Rally Speed, Magic, Resistance and Luck.
From what i've seen there are a few things that i would probably change to this tier list because of how much i play rev on the side because its more my style compared to conquest or birthright. In some of the cases where some units are kind of glossed over when they do have alot of value for rev and the way it focuses more about the join time rather than utility and options does just seem strange especially for fates where what you can do is generally what adds to unit values. Take Mozu for instance she makes the early and mid game of rev so much more manageable when you reclass her into archer. She can be a really good sniper both because of how good bows are and how she grows. Even the bad mozu's generally have alot of use early game. You can move her up into high B/low A because in lets say chapter 8 and 9 she is very reliable to handle with both the ninja's and archers that early rev loves throwing and can be a really good counter for the insane avoid of the swordmasters and Master ninjas of rev where they stack alot of avoid and she can give reliability especially when takumi's low defenses can make him a sitting duck sometimes. In other cases where 'the royals are generally good because their royals' kind of is also a bit of a misinterpretation for rev because elise is too frail for when she joins and is going to be very underleveled compared to sakura who's more than likely going to be recently promoted and sakura will have alot more bulk and higher staff rank. Compared to elise being as frail as she is which works to her disadvantage especially in late game. In Hinoka's case with camilla she's going to be weaker than camilla, in a worser way to grow because hinoka's dealing with a lot of generals, berserkers and fighters and the enemies she does deal with reliably would be better going to ryoma because scarlet pairup would utilize shield gauge better than hinoka would because of her frailness even if she was to just be a staffbot with falcon knight the child units like shigure or caeldori can fill that role better both because of offspring seal and earlier availability. With Leo he's generally going to be outclassed by ophelia because she's just such a great unit with odin's possible pairup options and his bulk is very situational as he mainly will handle generals anyway but the other mages you gain access to fill the role better. Looking at Odin and Ophelia they would be the only ones i would move out of E and into C because out of the 4 retainers that join in that map odin's gonna be the one that can catch up with ease because of magic and the way great knights can fall to him with ease and a good ophelia build can be usable in late game especially when some enemies stats heavily inflate. She can reliably keep up even on lunatic. With arthur and effie id probably move them to D because they serve more for backpacks to better units you have and charlotte and benny are kind of just better than that especially since charlotte offsets alot of xanders problems and gives him the good strength pool ontop of everything else she does and benny can square up to mages late game if you choose to take him that far. You can probably bump fuga to C because he's a very solid unit and can serve as a replacement for gunter and can handle himself especially for 23 when he can eat attack and helps set up for other units while also being a reliable backpack. Aside from some of the things i chose to point out here with some light flaws to character placement everything else is generally okay-ish maybe bump orochi up to A. Everything else seems pretty on par with my experiences.
Good to know that despite only playing Revelations through one and a half times I'm not *too* far off the mark. I honestly just don't like Fates enough to really invest myself into all the intricacies of the specific value a lot of units provide, so I kind of just auto-filled the tier list based on what I gathered was pretty general consensus and my own experience. I will fully admit that this tier list is definitely limited to mostly surface level analysis though
I mean thats fair but even like reclassing with heart seals do also show what unit development with skills can do for example; Doing master of arms kaze is really viable to add to his bulk which kaze does need against anything that isnt a mage. Atleast for EP. A prime example for how good reclassing can be especially early is jakob/felicia because of their equally viable reclass abilities like jakob getting defender in chapter 7 or felicia getting viability with strategist. Its just a way to get a new experience per playthrough
IMO Hana deserve better, she really carried me during the early game of my lunatic playthrough, she could double and OHKO/1RKO almost any ennemies (for example master ninja at the begining of the game)
I debated B or A tier for Hana, she's a fantastic unit in Rev if only for availability alone. I didn't feel she was quite as broken as the other A-tier units but she is still a good unit.
@@Cupcakkecult She does 0 damage at base without any backpack, tonics, or better weapons to 15 defense oni's. You can easily fix that and make her just snowball hard. Rev is the same game where you can turn a matchup like: 2 damage dealt, 8 taken, into 8 x 2 damage dealt, 4 taken in that same map (Str tonic, rinkah pair up (+4 str +2 defense), speed tonic to double, felicia/sakura -2 damage aura) not even counting dagger debuffs or corrins supportive personal.
Having Hana over Saizo is criminal when you take a look at her horrible bases imo. Rinkah is 10x better than her and infinitely more useful as even if she falls off due to bad growths she still makes for a great pair up bot which is also why people tend to underestimate her combat potential because they don't train her in branch of fate and keep her as a backpack. Saizo is by far the strongest ninja in rev aside from Silas having him over Kaze is actually kind of crazy because Kaze while he doesnt fall off as hard as he does in birthright he is still so much worse than in conquest because Kagero Asugi and saizo all beat him in damage and bulk especially saizo and while they join later early game rev is hard carried by Corrin Jakob anyways with archer mozu being my third slot.availabitily in rev is overrated because of that. Most of the early game unita fall off so hard because they tend to come with terrible bases unlike units that come starting chapter 11 and even then Orochi is still dogwater because you have access to Rhajat or Ophelia. Yes they require more time to get but when you get them they can basically solo the rest of the game if built right. Idk to me this list doesn't make sense.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
I think you're hyperfocusing on availability and not what these units can actually do when they're around. For example Subaki is in A tier when he's C tier at best imo. His stats just are not great.
On the opposite end we have Fuga, who I think you're underating alot. His stats are on par with Ryoma and Xander. He just is missing a really good prf weapon. He's an absolute monster with the best weapon ranks in whole game. I think he's around enough to land into B tier.
There's alot here that is just off to me. Like Satsuna for another example. She actually has pretty good stats when she joins and is definitely usable. So is Niles imo (Shura overshadows him by a mile though).
Btw I did still enjoy the video, just a little surprised at some of the placements
That's all fair. I will admit I have only played Revelations about one and a half times (the second time through I got so bored I put it down and never ended up finishing). So while these are my gut impressions it doesn't mean they're necessarily very accurate.
@@MythrilZenith modern fe fan… plays game once and makes a tier. What a surprise.
Yeah Subaki is just not that good tbh, he's actually one of the weakest units on my team as of right now, I don't want to bench him tho because I'm going to marry him to Selena so I can get Caeldori. But he's just a mediocre unit overall.
I know this is a rapid fire tier list, but some things are flat out wrong.
There's no world, a playstyle, a type of playthrough (be it casual, iron-man or LTC) where Elise is better than Sakura. Sakura joins very early and is one of the few units that can contribute at base, one of the few long-term units in Rev and is one of the most flexible - she can work as either physical or magical unit. Elise on the other hand joins much later in a chapter where every single enemy besides Benny one-shots her on Hard, let alone Lunatic. This makes taking advantage of her skill incredibly difficult. And if you want Strategist, then Jakob/Felicia are available from the start so what does Elise brings to the team at this point? Even late joining Felicia can contribute more, thanks to being just 2 lvls away from Inspiration, while Elise needs minimum of 17 lvls to get there, which is a lot to ask at this point of the game.
Another one is Hinoka - if Azama and Setsuna are E and F tier, then she should be no higher than D. Her speed and res are good, everything else ranges from mediocre to outright tragic - 24 hp and 12 defense means if she ever unequips Guard Naginata, she'll get blasted to kingdom come and the need for flier utility is mostly gone by this point, so just like Elise, she doesn't bring much to the team besides her skill, which is easier to utilize than with Elise. I would harp on Leo as well, but he's just underwhelming and closer to B tier.
Reina is not a B tier - she's one of the best units in ch11, the best in ch12 and holds her own pretty much until near the end of the game where she starts having durability issues. Other than that she's fantastic so not putting her in S tier, not to mention below Elise, is a crime. Subaki in A is a bit high, though he is the only flier when flying is the most useful so i can see it. Kaze is also too high. Unless you give him like 5 lvls in ch4 and 5, he's going to struggle and is unlikely to be better than Saizo by the time the latter joins.
Hana does not belong in the same tier as Oboro - she's bad. Yeah Sunrise Katana does give her good avoid, but Fates uses single rn for < 50% hit rates and in terms of bulk Hana is made of tissue paper so it's like relying on Lyn to dodge tank, except much less reliable. Even with Duelist Blow active, Hana can't take a single hit from most enemies, so when she gets hit, she dies. Oboro on the other hand is solid all around at base, flexible in terms of reclassing and is very good long term.
How is Silas "not great"? In Rev he has personal bases comparable to Xander, while being unpromoted at lvl 18. In few lvls he surpasses Xander and by the time the latter joins the only thing he has over Silas is Siegfried (which to be fair still makes Xander better). Though Silas has more support options and more availability. Even if he's diet Xander, that's really good so if Xander is S tier, Silas should be as well.
Hayato is significantly better in Rev compared to BR and he doesn't take long to grow into something good - he's already pretty decent at base so you don't have to go out of your way to train him. While he doesn't hit as hard as Orochi, he's also much faster and bulkier on physical side so his enemy phase is better. He's not a superstar, but it makes no sense for him to be in the same tier as Effie and Arthur - he's way better than them.
Last thing would be Selena, Kaden and Keaton being too low - they're much better than other units in their tiers. For everyone else i can see placing them in those tiers in one context or another.
Lets get it bro. Saizo is worse than kaze every single playthrough no CAP 100. his speed growth is nasty for his class and its 1 of 2 stats that ninjas need, and id rather have kaze doing 7 x2 than saizo doing 11 x1 any day. His base speed makes it so he literally cannot double anything even with the best speed pair ups until you increase his support with them. Saizo requires double the effort to become half as good as the other ninjas. Unless he gets crazy speed blessed, he aint being fielded past chapter 20. I can see him being good if you dont use the other ninjas, but if you rotate between them he will always be the weakest link. The lowest I would ever rate Kaze is the very top of A tier, and the highest i would ever rate saizo is low B tier.
U darn right about hinoka. Shes just there to give children units red hair (lol!) also hayato should be top A tier, since his damage is really good from the start and never really falls off. I also dont think silas is S tier, mid/high A tier fits him better when looking at the S tier units. I feel like youre slightly undermining siegfried and overvaluing his availability.
Silas is available for only 3 chapters before xander joins, and will almost always get outclassed by him unless you continue to feed him entire map worths of enemies after promotion. Yes he has really good bases and quickly promotes, but when comparing him to the other units in S tier, I feel like he is usually worse than most of them. His biggest problem is that he doesnt have the speed like every other S tier unit besides takumi, so his high strength isnt fully utilized like it is for units such as Ryoma or Camilla. He can hit harder and tank more than units like kaze and (sometimes) corrin, but his lack of good 1-2 range and personal weapons hurts the justification for putting him in S tier. His skills are also kind of L unless you pair him with corrin, but depending on his/her class, the support bonuses usually arent enough to make up for what hes lacking in speed or extra durability.
Rev units also have a lot of HP, so silas will rarely 1 round unless you give him a backpack that can patch up his weak spots. Even then, putting someone like charlotte as his backpack is just wasted potential, since in no universe will he be tanking better than Xander with his niche personal skill and lack of siegfried. With how many ranged units there are in rev, siegfried alone separates xander from Silas utility-wise with its crazy stats on a crazy base man.
Even if silas joins 3 chapters earlier, his shaky growths in certain stats make it harder to justify his placement with the top dawgs until around endgame. Most of the units in your army should be at least A tier by endgame though, and silas at that point will more than likely still be a step below the S tiers.
The only S tier I could see being in A tier with him is takumi, only because of his personal weapon being locked to 2 range. I never reclass him to kinshi knight because more often than not, his only worthwhile stats are his strength and skill, and there are usually fliers that perform better than he would, like reina or camilla. His bow is crazy and can almost 1 shot master ninjas upon joining, but thats his bow being good. Personal weapons make the unit in this game, and is actually one of the reasons why I think leo should be S tier if takumi is. Yes his join time is late, but his decent bases and good tome make him pack a punch while also being able to take a beating.
I cant say much for selena being better than child units apart from availability, but if both parents were trained, they'll probably outclass her in most aspects. It also doesnt help that kiragi is in C tier when hes almost always high A tier low S tier for me, so him being there along with sakura (whose rank is a crime) makes me more reluctant to say shes a tier above her peers. I usually just use her as a bow knight backpack for keaton (who should be mid-high A tier) and feed her equal exp if she gets good starting levels.
I personally like samurai units and use hana and hinata even if they arent that good. offensively hana is top class, but that doesnt mean much when you see her HP and defense. hinata swaps hanas pros and cons, giving up strength and speed for hp and defense, so I can see your point with oboro being better than her (and hinata as well by comparison). Between the 2 furries though, i think kaden would be in the same tier as hana (usually b tier) since he has the exact same problems as her, sometimes even more-so since his weapon lowers his defense. Either way both kaden and hana either get 1 or 2 shot, but they are both offensively comparable. Keaton is closer to silas role-wise, probably doing silas' job better than he can, since keaton appears with very comparable bases despite joining 3 whole levels lower, not to mention his great defense and monstrous HP and strength growths.
I agree with pretty much everything else you said about units like sakura and oboro, its just wild to me that units like effie, arthur, subaki, caeldori, and orochi wormed their way up to such high placements when realistically theyre all locked to E tier. Orochi and subaki are the only salvageable ones of the bunch, but even then they most likely will peak at mid C tier. I can see caeldori being better than all of them if you speedrun subaki S support, but its insanely tedious leveling him up to increase support ranks and give her better bases, since his strength and speed are so bad and wont get any better. Subaki players pop off when they see something besides Skl Lck Res (because we all know his res growth is a fib).
@@rockroy259 The main advantage Saizo has is his mixed offense, he's the only of the 3 ninjas with good magic and can alternate between physical and magical attacks when needed so it's not always str vs str comparison and with Kaze focusing on speed, every point of str he misses hurts a lot against bulky Rev enemies. If he stays on average he's going to be fine, but if he doesn't he'll struggle to perform at all. Saizo also has more physical bulk while never being slow enough to get doubled unless you send him against fast promoted enemies at base. I can see your point, though I value Saizo more in Rev because he's not as prone to get rng screwed as Kaze, who doesn't get auto leveled unlike Conquest, which makes every missed str lvl up hurts a lot, especially early on, while for Saizo's spd, like you said, he needs to get blessed to double consistently anyway so it doesn't matter until much later.
With Silas it entirely depends how you approach it - if you want to use him just as a filler or shelter bot, then yeah he's not going to be stronger than Xander. At the same time if you're not feeding him a lot of kills - then who else? Rev doesn't exactly have stiff competition in that aspect, due to how underleveled and understatted almost everyone is. And even if you use him as a filler there's absolutely no reason to not deploy him every chapter. S tier might a bit too high, but high A tier at the very least. Having him lower than Hana, Hinoka, Beruka and Elise just doesn't make any sense.
The shaky growths are exactly my issue with Kaze, the difference is that Silas is really good at base and even if he gets rng screwed it will make him worse, not unviable. Why would everyone be in A tier by the endgame? Most units can't get there without grinding and if we include that then making tier list at all is pointless.
I cannot agree with Takumi/Leo assessment - Takumi's bow making him good doesn't change anything. It's exclusive to him, so it only makes sense to judge them together. Not promoting him to Kinshi is fine, it entirely depends on how he grows. Being locked to 2 range does suck, but it's a fair tradeoff for dealing so much damage. Leo is nowhere near as good - I would never put him in S tier in either route. He can tank ok and dish out damage ok, his bases are decent but none of them stand out. It doesn't help that most fast enemies deal physical damage, which unfortunately is his weaker stat, so while Silas can tank those hits with his superior defense or even grow enough speed to not get doubled at all, Leo will have to take both hits (or get spd pair-up). If he joined sooner i could see them being closer, but he joins right before enemies scale up considerably, which doesn't give him many opportunities to get out of his middling bases.
I have no strong opinions on child units, since their performance can vary drastically so I was referring to Selena being better than Arthur, Effie, Benny and Charlotte. Being used as backpack when levels up turn bad can be applied universally though.
Hana has 2 less strength and 2 less skill compared to Birthright and even there she's not that great, so they kneecaped her in Rev (technically they buffed her in Birthright but still). Once she gets going her offense is monstrous, but her bulk is tragic - without wiping out all enemies around her or sheltering her, she's dead. Kaden won't be one shot, because while his defense is low, his hp base and growth are pretty good. Hana has very low defense and she'll be lucky with 30 hp when she promotes. If she wasn't so horrendously bad at base (literally doing 0 damage in her join chapter) I would be fine with her being in B tier, but as is I would put her in low C, high D - you only get her out her bases if you want to use her, same as Mozu. and Kaden mid to high C. Hinata is fine for a while since his personal bases are quite good, but long term he's much worse than Oboro. He can be good if he turns out well, though it's unlikely cause for some reason he has one of the lowest growths in the game.
Keaton compared to Silas has same str and slightly higher spd, everything else is either worse or much worse. They have similar spd tier, but Keaton's res is much lower so he's less flexible as a tank. As always his skill is the biggest issue. It is usually a dump stat until you don't have enough of it and Keaton has only ok base (most of which comes from his beaststone) and very low growth, which long term is a problem if he misses too many procs. It's not a dealbreaker, but it is something to keep in mind. He's still better than Kaden for sure though.
Subaki in A tier may be a bit too high, but at the same time, unless you have Corrin with flier talent (or reclass Gunter), he's the only flier during Fuga's wild ride and you need him to recruit Saizo, Orochi and Reina on turn 1 so they don't die. As a combat unit he's not great for sure and long term he's very dubious, but at the same time there's not much competition early on and his contributions can't be replicated by anyone else without investment. I'd be fine with him being lower, but i don't mind his placement either.
@@Xertaron. The problem with kaden is that he has the same issues as hana does, in that he will still get 2 shot since dodge tanking is never reliable in fates. I do agree with high/mid C tier, only because he can perform well in the next couple of chapters after he joins.
One thing to think about is: if one does use hana in their playthrough, 9 times out of 10 she will completely outclass kaden offensively. Plus the extra crit from promotion helps her snowball and pretty much 1 round anything she initiates combat against. I cant say the same for kaden unless hes going against an unpromoted archer or something, not to mention the lack of duelists blow to make his combat less scary.
I personally have never gotten screwed over with kaze. I could see you not using him if you prefer immediate contributors instead of long term investment, but I cannot see Saizo ever being more helpful than kaze past the first three or so maps he joins.
When it comes to kaze and leveling strength, it matters less when you take his speed into account, since he can wield stronger shurikens without losing double attacks. Forging shurikens can even make up for any strength screwed kaze you might get, and I would rather spend 1-3 quartz on a stronger shuriken for kaze than give Saizo exp.
It could be subjective based on every run I tried to use him, but Saizo has always been a jack of some trades master of one. Yes he has magic, but odds are if he needs flame shuriken to do damage, that enemy isnt taking much physical damage from anyone. At that point, why not just field a mage whose entire purpose is to take out physically tanky enemies, than field a ninja who has C- offensive capabilities at best and F+ at worst? (Taking his lack of speed into account)
Saizo is accurate. That's kind of it. Even in the bulk category he more often than not loses to kaze, since kaze has an entire 20% extra HP growth than Saizo. His base HP of 23 is only good because it's matched with his 9 defense, but that wont last long if he doesnt win a lot of HP and defense coin flips. His resistance is cheeks and will never get better, so not only will he have less HP than Kaze, but he can only tank 1 of 2 damage types because of the culmination of his ok HP and good defense. Kaze eats mages for breakfast; Saizo suicide bombs into them. Literally, with his skill. His personal skill is dog garbo and makes him an enemy phase exclusive ninja, which is quite possibly the worst role possible for a physical tank ninja, since physical units in Rev are more often than not scarier than the magic units.
To make a comparison to Saizo's defensive capabilities, I would say he's like a Bounty paper towel. On the surface it seems like he can suck up damage with the big boys, but when the going gets tough he starts to tear and rips apart.
While Saizo will not get doubled, he will never double, even with a speed pair up can only perform against the slowest of units, and doesnt do enough damage to actually contribute post chapter 15. Saizo himself only has 10% higher strength growth than kaze, so realistically (if youre fielding kaze) they will be equal on all fronts besides speed, luck, and defense, with Saizo losing the most important comparison: speed.
Units like Takumi compared to Saizo are like: "You have shurikens (+2 btw speed lol) and will never double. I have the Fujin Yumi and will never double. We aren't the same." Speed is what I would consider to be the most important stat on 80% of the cast, since only absolute powerhouses like Takumi and Xander can deal enough damage in one strike to make up for not doubling. Saizo, however, does not have a good weapon. Forging a good shuriken for him will be wasted, since at the end of the day it will not make up for his lackluster speed. I mean, hes already getting one-upped by little bro, but then he gets one-upped by his ex in the same chapter...
Speaking of Takumi, lets get to my reason for Leo being S while Takumi (in a world where he gets strength screwed) being high A. Keep in mind most of my Leo experience is from Conquest Lunatic, where he's always without fail second only to Xander for best unit. Leo has Brynhildr which only has 4 less attack than Fujin Yumi, but has 1-2 range. That more than makes up for the damage difference in my opinion, not to mention the built-in Aegis lite that comes in handy against some of the scarier mages. You could argue that Takumi wins in the offensive battle, but I would rebuttle with that only being the case on player phase due to Quick Draw giving him +4 damage. Malefic Aura gives Leo +2 damage on both phases, so he is suited for both player and enemy phase playstyles.
Most of the enemies are physical, which is precisely why he's so good. His damage output will more frequently be higher than Takumi's since his attacks scale with magic, and his decent growths in all three defensive stats and good bases make for a great well-rounded front line unit. As for his speed, I always like pairing him up with Felicia since she boosts his strongest points and patches up his weakest one.
Felicia's support bonuses dont really benefit anyone else besides Hayato, and even then Leo has a lot more bulk than Hayato ever will. You could say that she makes a good pair up for Saizo to boost his flame shuriken damage, but at that point I would rather give it to Felicia since her magic will probably be better anyways, and she actually has the ability to double some enemies without needing to pair up.
Also going back to what I said about Takumi only being good because of his bow, I was more so pointing to the fact that his personal weapon is a *bow*, which is the only ranged type in the game that is locked to 2 range. Shurikens/daggers and tomes/scrolls all have 1-2 range, and the only notable exception to bows is the shining bow. Leo and Takumi both have personal ranged weapons, but in order for Takumi to have the same ranged-melee capability as Leo, he would need either a DLC skill that takes a lot more effort than it's worth, or a mini bow/shining bow. Which is where you face the problem: Takumi *is* only good with his bow. Other bow users like Niles and Setsuna have speed on their side, while Takumi is more rounded and usually only gets good levels in one of two stats, being strength or speed. I've never had a Takumi that was strong and fast, and I've never had a Takumi that was fast and strong.
Leo, however, already comes with the fixes that Takumi will almost never get nor want, since "Shining Bow Takumi" sounds like a build only people with 1000+ hours in the game would use. Keep in mind this isn't me trying to justify Takumi being a trash unit like some Fire emblem channels do for some reason, this is me comparing Leo with Takumi and why the former is more deserving of S rank than Takumi. Takumi excels in player phase combat, Leo can excel in both player and enemy phase combat, just as long as you bite the bullet and use him.
If it was Conquest, I would place Niles in S tier, but usually the only archers you would use in Rev are Takumi and Kiragi. Same with Leo, there's not much competition for their roles: High power archer and bulky mage. I personally rank both of them S tier, just with Leo being higher.
I get what you mean by ranking trained units is pointless. To rephrase it, basically I'm trying to say that Silas is overall an A tier unit, but while other units like Hana or Kaden are overall C tier units that have the *potential* to be A tier, Silas generally wont have the potential to be reach the same S tier that has the likes of Xander or Ryoma. That was my main point about Silas and I think we agree: He's a great unit that very much deserves A tier, but he's not *so* great that Xander should be bumped down from S tier due to similarities or vice versa.
The thing about Keaton is that he will *always* have those extra stats with his weapon, so any level he gets in those stats will only snowball further. With Silas it's one and done without Defender, but +1 to all stats realistically is just a single perfect level. I pair bow knight Selena with Keaton to patch up his skill and speed issues, which in turn patches up Selena's strength and defense issues while further boosting her speed. Since Keaton will almost always have more speed than Silas, I find that it's a lot easier to patch up his greatest weaknesses than it is to patch up Silas's.
Silas's speed, even with some levels and promotion gains, will most likely be no higher than 3 above Leo's base of 15. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the enemies in chapter 16 are fast enough to double 15 speed units. They also share the same speed growth, so if Silas isn't getting doubled, odds are Leo isn't either. Where Silas beats Leo in physical tanking, Leo will beat him in versatility, raw damage (refer to the 11th section), and magic tanking.
Also, I would rate other fliers (specifically pegasus types) in FE games similarly to D tier subaki. I never really got the whole "flying versatility" thing, since pegasus knights generally have bottom tier combat and literally cant tank to save their lives. The whole "rescue potential" thing makes it seem like they're rated unnecessarily high for essentially being flying Merlinus without access to convoy.
Fates was actually my introduction to the series in 2015, and I was omega soy and would do an entire revelations playthrough just to make children with different hair colors than my previous save files
@@rockroy259 9 times out of 10 Hana might outperform Kaden (she's not that much stronger to say she outclasses him) and that 1 out of 10 she'll die, because unlike him she can't take any physical hit. Yes Duelist Blow makes her harder to hit, but unless you stack so much avoid to reduce enemy hit to 0, you risk her life everytime she enters combat. She doesn't one round consistently until after she promotes and all that is after she gets feed a lot of exp to get going, because she can't do anything at base, while Kaden can - he has lower ceiling, but also a far higher floor.
It's not just Kaze that is prone to get rng screwed, it goes for almost every unit joining between ch7-10 - if they get bad level ups and don't keep up with enemy curve, they'll keep falling behind. If he gets average to good level-ups then all is well, if he doesn't he'll struggle to contribute. If you have gold and materials to forge shurikens for him, then all is well, unless you don't, since what materials you get is random. And by that logic you can fix spd with meals and pairups. Saizo simply doesn't have these lingering questions, even if he's not as good as above average Kaze.
I don't see what's wrong with being jack of all trades - Oboro is also master one and they both join early enough where they can grow into kings/queens of those trades. You don't use Saizo over your mage, having access to magic damage simply means he's not forced to combat low defense enemies. Kaze has 15% higher hp growth, but also 4 less at base so the difference is not as big as it sounds. Also why would you have Saizo fight mages in the first place? If it's fair to say that Saizo sucks against them, then it's also fair to say that Kaze gets yeeted by physical attacks, but that doesn't make him bad - it's not what he should be used for. Just because Saizo has better enemy phase than Kaze, doesn't mean you have to use him exclusively for that purpose - same as with his mixed offense, why would make it sound like a negative? Can his skill screw you over sometimes? Yes, but it can also help if you plan ahead and don't forget that he has it.
It is true that it takes Saizo a while to start doubling consistently, but not as long as you make it seem. 20/1 Saizo averages 20.5 spd, which isn't bad by any means - he's only short of doubling the fastest enemies. And he can double with the help of pairups, meals or rallies. Spd is important, but it's also one of the easiest stats to fix. Kagero, while stronger, is very unreliable, constantly hovering around 70-80 hit rates, so I don't see how she one-ups Saizo - especially if spd is so important, they have the same base so what gives?
Conquest Leo is not Rev Leo - in Conquest he joins in ch14 from turn 1 on a map where he can contribute a lot, in Rev he joins in ch17 on turn 2 away from your army where he's up against high res enemies that he deals little dmg to (except armor knights/generals). Having 1-2 range doesn't mean much when you're not a juggernaut like Xander or Ryoma. Brynhildr's skill benefit is minuscule since Leo already has high res - halving that isn't doing much unless it triggers against a crit, but Leo also has high dodge and even when he does get crit that Aegis effect is still random. Also, magical enemies usually have high res, so he's not doing much in return. Takumi can delete whatever you send him at on player phase, Leo can't do that. He has better enemy phase for sure, but he's mostly chipping enemies. His damage output will never be higher than Takumi's because A - he can't double anything besides the slowest enemies and B - his crit rate is significantly lower.
So even if Takumi deals less damage against a certain enemy, he's more likely to double or just delete them with a crit. Leo's bases are fine in Conquest, in Rev they're barely ok. His growths are great, but he doesn't have time to grow since he can't contribute much in his joining chapter - he can't even one round generals, only armor knights - so you have to setup kills for him. And once again, if it's fine to fix Leo's spd with a pair-up then i don't see why is it such a problem with Saizo.
If you deploy both Saizo and Felicia and want to use her for combat, then that is even better - you can trade Flame Shuriken whenever necessary or pair them up in case you need a little bit of extra damage. They also cover each others defensive weaknesses as an extra.
Fates is a game where being locked to 2 range is the least detrimental, because most 1-2 range is bad, enemies hits hard, while tomes and shurikens have low might and most of their users have other downsides. Conquest showcases how stupidly powerful 1-2 range is on Takumi. The only unit that can use Shining Bow effectively is Anna, Niles and Shura can sometimes use it against low res enemies, but Setsuna has no magic whatsoever. And it's not an enemy phase weapon - it tanks avoid, which combined with meager bulk of it's users means 1-2 range doesn't change anything 95% of the time. So to conclude - it's not that Takumi is only good with his bow, it's that there's no reason not to use Fujin Yumi on him. If Niles or Setsuna could use it, the only other bow they would ever equip would be Illusory Yumi extra res and Mini-bow if they couldn't avoid fighting at 1 range. Also Takumi has 50% str and 55% spd as an archer, so i guess you got very unlucky.
No, people with +1000 hours know that Shining Bow on Takumi is a stupid idea, because he doesn't need a "fix". You make it sound like Leo's player phase is almost as good as Takumi's, but they're not even close. Takumi has arguably the best player phase in the game, being capable of deleting most enemies, Leo can do ok damage on both phases, but that's about it. He's not killing anything that isn't already chipped and he's not figthing more than 1 or 2 enemies on enemy phase without dying. It's not about "biting the bullet", that could be said Hana, since there's no reason to use her unless you want to as it requires to go far out of your way to do so. Leo isn't bad at base, he can do chip damage, he (usually) can take a hit, he's an ok unit. But being ok is not enough for S tier. Sure he has good growths, but in Rev the only way to take advantage of them is you do all the paralogues in one go before entering Valla. Otherwise a lot of enemies double and nearly one round him there.
Well it isn't Conquest and like I've been saying Leo is considerably worse in Rev. If you really want a bulky mage, then Hayato or even reclassed Camilla are better for that role.
I've never suggested Xander should be bumped down from S tier, merely that Silas is almost as good as him so if anything they should be much closer on a tier list. As for potential - everyone can be S tier if you put your mind to it. The reason i would put Hana in D tier is not because she can't become very strong, but because she takes a lot of resources that could go to other units. If you do skirmishes, DLC and save all the paralogues right before entering Valla to maximize exp gain, then sure none of it matters and everyone can be in A or S tier, even Gunter.
Keaton with those extra stats is still only winning with Silas in spd. That's one advantage he has and like i said spd is one of the easiest stats to patch up. I'm not saying he's bad, but Silas is generally going to be better. Also since when Selena struggles with def? She has very solid personal 6 base/45% growth, one of the highest in the game. Unless you insta promote i guess.
In chapter 16 only Adventurers would double Leo. Would, because he doesn't join untill 17 where no enemies do, except Bow Knight on a balista, but that's the least of Leo's worries in this chapter. Silas has same spd growth, but he also joins earlier and in a chapter that doesn't hate him so their spd is not going to be the same. In ch18 a lot of enemies double Leo, but that's a small problem, spd is easy to fix like i said. However in combination with Seal Defense it's much more of issue since his def is just ok and it makes him get one rounded by... well a lot of enemies, but most notably Master Ninjas unless he has at least 21 spd and those spd thresholds only get higher each chapter. As for magic tanking, Onmyojis in ch18 have 20 spd and 38 atk, one rounding him at base. So his versatility doesn't mean much when he gets, at most, 2 shot by nearly everything - like i said, in Rev he's playing catch-up.
Ok, so the thing with flying utility is allowing for plays that would otherwise be impossible to do. Fuga's wild ride (ch9) is a slog without a flier, because you get pushed around constantly, often into enemy's range, while a flier (in this case Subaki) can get everyone where they want to be much more conveniently. Then in ch11 he enables recruiting Saizo, Orochi and Reina on turn 1 by flying over the woods, saving you a lot of headache. Ch12 (the ships on the frozen sea) is all about flying utility as your grounded units are stuck on the boats until turn 6. That's why it's called utility, it has nothing to do with their combat performance. That's the thing with Merlinus - he doesn't fly. If he did his utility would skyrocket and let him rescue slower units like Hector, Oswin or Hawkeye closer to the frontline where they want to be. That's why fliers are so good, even if their combat is lackluster, they have their flying utility, which is valuable in Rev. In Birthright it's almost useless (with few exceptions like volcano chapter) because maps are mostly flat squares with little terrain so whether you fly or not doesn't matter.
@@Xertaron. I am starting to get upset because this is the third time I'm writing this due to youtube cancelling my replies for whatever reason. Anyway,
Hana and Kaden are at the same mid C tier precisely because Hana takes more effort to train but becomes better, while Kaden takes less effort but will turn out worse (if you use both of them). One leg up Hana has over Kaden is weapon triangle bonuses, since Kaden's beast stone makes it so his hit/avoid is the same regardless of weapon type. Berserkers become plentiful in Valla and are enemies that have very few 1-range physical counters. Between the two, a promoted Hana vs a promoted Kaden, Hana would be the go-to pick for them. She has Duelist's blow, weapon triangle advantage, as well as the big swordmaster crit bonus. Kaden has none of these, and while Hana would get oneshot, she also will realistically only face a 4-13% hit rate. Kaden has to risk the crit however, since berserkers have massive HP, and Kaden's offense usually isnt good enough to 1-shot with a crit. Specifically, I would put Hana and Kaden right next to each other, maybe Kaden being 1 spot ahead.
I dont get why you seem to trivialize Saizo's inability to fight mages. There are so many other units that you get around his join time that can do his job better, i.e. have decent offense while being physically tanky. By the time he joins, you already have Corrin, Subaki, Oboro, Hinata, and Reina that all have more HP and defense than him (Subaki has the same base 9 defense 2 chapters earlier and decent growths in both HP and defense). That's not even including the units that shortly follow, Beruka, Selena, Camilla, Kaden, and Keaton. All of them have either better HP or better defense than Saizo, a majority of them have better offense, save for maybe Selena, and will continue to be better than him in either of the categories. Saizo is only physically tanky because of his *defense*, not HP, so where Kaze would have beat in both HP and resistance, Saizo would be defensively stronger, but much slower. Saizo's "leg up" on kaze, being his "mixed offense" and "better bulk," dont actually apply when you consider his HP will be lower so he will have to rely on his defense more than his HP, his speed will be lower so some enemies might double him, he can only face 1 of 2 damage types, and his retaliation game is lackluster. Forging a shuriken for Kaze requires a lot less effort than fixing Saizo's speed, since forging is a more permanent fix. Saizo would need to win the RNG battle of eating the speed meal each time, and that's not even taking the resources into consideration. With ore, you can swap 5 of any to get 1 quartz, but the same cannot be done for food. Unless you get lucky with the starting farms, castle drops, or Keaton's skill, you will have to go to the arena to keep the speed food supply running. Forging is also less expensive over time, since you can forge an iron shuriken for a maximum of 1000 gold, whereas 150 gold would be spent on speed tonics each chapter just so Saizo can do what Kaze will have been doing for 3 chapters. Going back to resistance, Kaze is one of very few units that can face mages without taking decent damage on both physical and enemy phase, the only others I can think of being Niles, Orochi, Shura, and Leo. I think Kaze in revelations is the best of the bunch, unless you prefer prepromotes like Shura who wont really improve from their bases.
Also, I mainly said kagero one-ups Saizo because she will instantly be better offensively in 1-2 level ups. Given fates RNG, I would rather have 76% hit rates while doing 17 x 2 than 100% hit rate while doing 12 or 15 x1 (depending on which damage type you decide to use for Saizo). Saizo's magic base is really bad considering his role as a mixed offensive unit, and kagero will swiftly beat him in the strength category. Since kagero officially joins you in the next chapter, Saizo's magic wont have grown enough for the damage to be comparable.
I can concede that Leo isnt S tier like Takumi in revelations, but I never have enough justification to bench him when so few units tick the boxes he does. He's a bulky mounted unit who prioritizes magic, and the only other one I can think of is a promoted odin, but *nobody* should train odin over Leo in rev. Camilla's base magic is too low to justify using tomes over physical weapons, and her only other magic class is sorcerer. The reason I prefer pairing up Leo for speed over Saizo is because Leo focuses on magic, and his great HP and decent defense base are only negated because of his speed shaky speed. The thing about Saizo is: because he puts a little effort in both strength and magic, I find him slightly underwhelming in both. Even if his speed pair up allows him to double, his damage will be lower than Leo's against most enemies, unless you make Leo exclusively face sorcerers and paladins or something. I just cant see a world where you would rather use flame shuriken Saizo to fight a general or great knight over Leo. Side note, I think Felicia x Saizo is a one-sided relationship, since Saizo doesnt give her a single point of defense, whereas she gives him a butt load of resistance.
I mainly meant Leo has decent player and enemy phase, whereas takumi only has player phase. Training both of them gives you an offensive powerhouse and a very well-rounded bulky magic unit. Reclassing him to a sorcerer would also help his speed and give him more magic, as well as allowing him to use nosferatu. Out of all magic units in Rev, Leo makes the best use of it by far, since Hayato utilizes his speed, and Orochi has *no* speed, so he would become a unit that cant double but wont get doubled, on top of being bulky enough and strong enough to take hits and heal afterwards. You can admit that sorcerer Leo would at least be A tier, no? He can immediately contribute better if you use a heart seal on him, and he can do that upon joining as well.
As for Keaton patching up Selena's defense, its because while her defense growth is high, it most likely wont grow enough to matter given her low HP unless shes given support by the time promoted units appear. What do you mean Silas will usually be better? He will usually *never* be better. Keaton has better growths than Silas in *all three* stats Silas cares about, and he joins two chapters earlier since he's playable at the start of chapter 13, but Silas doesnt join you until chapter 15. Silas has 50% HP growth, 60% strength growth, and 50% defense growth. None of these will increase when he promotes unless you choose great knight, which even then will only make his defense growth equal. Keaton has 80% HP and strength growths, and 60% defense growth. His base HP and strength are nearly identical to Silas, and while his beastrune is the main reason for his good defense, he's going to outgrow silas anyway. Keaton is 3 levels behind Silas's base level when he joins in chapter 13, and his promotion gives him +3 to HP, strength, and defense. Silas' promotion gives him 2 to all of those, and if keaton is at level 18 at the start of chapter 15, the master seal is going to him no doubt about it.
The reason I pointed out Xander and Silas's differences is because in your original comment, you said Silas would "surpass" Xander in only a few levels by the time Xander joins, and that him being a diet Xander justifies him being S tier as well. I mainly disagreed with this because the reverse would be the same: If we both say Silas should be A tier, yet you say Xander and Silas are so similar that Silas should be S tier, that would mean Xander should be A tier if Silas is not S tier. I don't think either of us actually think Xander and Silas are in the same tier even if they're both similar, but my response was based on your original framing.
About Subaki being able to fly over the lake in chapter 12... what does this do for him exactly? It's not like he can use dragon veins or shelter, and his combat is generally still awful by that point, not to mention the fact that you can pair up all your units to be on the same boats like in Conquest chapter 21, so why would you ever field him over a good combat unit? I get the whole recruiting of Saizo in chapter 11, but you can also do the same with any other unit. You have to dance for Subaki regardless, and the only difference between him and using any other unit is that the ninja blocking the path would have to be taken out first. Is it really worth fielding a flying feather duster to recruit Saizo early, in turn making the rest of the map slightly harder since there's 1 less good combat unit, rather than taking an extra turn to recruit him with the same amount of problems? The only one of the group that moves is Reina who usually attacks the samurai, and the archer at the bottom can quickly be blocked off, so it's not like shes gonna die. The chest at the top right can also be reached with Reina anyway, so that's not exactly a point in Subaki's favor.
All that being said, I started a playthrough a few weeks ago and got to chapter 18, but I might replay it and try a lot of the things mentioned in these replies. I'm mostly interested in magic Saizo with Felicia, but the "pride" of the ninja clan is usually dogwater for me so wish me luck
I like your lists a lot but I got say that was probably your weakest one. I think you're too hang up on availability and are not considering what the unit can offer when they're present. Also revelations is the route you can go the most crazy with possibilities because of friendship seals (Xander and Ryoma can trade classes with each other to pick up skills and get even more broken for example). And it also helps that you can grind if needed (unlike Conquest).
Yeah I'd agree that my Rev tier list is probably my worst, definitely deserves a full replay and remake at some point in the future.
I'd put sakura in at least A, she has way too many options
- Elise support to pick up inspiration and demoiselle which I think stack with her personal skill
- Hayato to pick up rend heaven, pretty good for her as a priestess with shining bow when her strength is passable.
- she can pick up multiple rally skills through elise, Corrin and her own class line for Rally Speed, Magic, Resistance and Luck.
From what i've seen there are a few things that i would probably change to this tier list because of how much i play rev on the side because its more my style compared to conquest or birthright.
In some of the cases where some units are kind of glossed over when they do have alot of value for rev and the way it focuses more about the join time rather than utility and options does just seem strange especially for fates where what you can do is generally what adds to unit values. Take Mozu for instance she makes the early and mid game of rev so much more manageable when you reclass her into archer. She can be a really good sniper both because of how good bows are and how she grows. Even the bad mozu's generally have alot of use early game. You can move her up into high B/low A because in lets say chapter 8 and 9 she is very reliable to handle with both the ninja's and archers that early rev loves throwing and can be a really good counter for the insane avoid of the swordmasters and Master ninjas of rev where they stack alot of avoid and she can give reliability especially when takumi's low defenses can make him a sitting duck sometimes.
In other cases where 'the royals are generally good because their royals' kind of is also a bit of a misinterpretation for rev because elise is too frail for when she joins and is going to be very underleveled compared to sakura who's more than likely going to be recently promoted and sakura will have alot more bulk and higher staff rank. Compared to elise being as frail as she is which works to her disadvantage especially in late game. In Hinoka's case with camilla she's going to be weaker than camilla, in a worser way to grow because hinoka's dealing with a lot of generals, berserkers and fighters and the enemies she does deal with reliably would be better going to ryoma because scarlet pairup would utilize shield gauge better than hinoka would because of her frailness even if she was to just be a staffbot with falcon knight the child units like shigure or caeldori can fill that role better both because of offspring seal and earlier availability. With Leo he's generally going to be outclassed by ophelia because she's just such a great unit with odin's possible pairup options and his bulk is very situational as he mainly will handle generals anyway but the other mages you gain access to fill the role better.
Looking at Odin and Ophelia they would be the only ones i would move out of E and into C because out of the 4 retainers that join in that map odin's gonna be the one that can catch up with ease because of magic and the way great knights can fall to him with ease and a good ophelia build can be usable in late game especially when some enemies stats heavily inflate. She can reliably keep up even on lunatic.
With arthur and effie id probably move them to D because they serve more for backpacks to better units you have and charlotte and benny are kind of just better than that especially since charlotte offsets alot of xanders problems and gives him the good strength pool ontop of everything else she does and benny can square up to mages late game if you choose to take him that far.
You can probably bump fuga to C because he's a very solid unit and can serve as a replacement for gunter and can handle himself especially for 23 when he can eat attack and helps set up for other units while also being a reliable backpack.
Aside from some of the things i chose to point out here with some light flaws to character placement everything else is generally okay-ish maybe bump orochi up to A. Everything else seems pretty on par with my experiences.
Good to know that despite only playing Revelations through one and a half times I'm not *too* far off the mark. I honestly just don't like Fates enough to really invest myself into all the intricacies of the specific value a lot of units provide, so I kind of just auto-filled the tier list based on what I gathered was pretty general consensus and my own experience. I will fully admit that this tier list is definitely limited to mostly surface level analysis though
I mean thats fair but even like reclassing with heart seals do also show what unit development with skills can do for example; Doing master of arms kaze is really viable to add to his bulk which kaze does need against anything that isnt a mage. Atleast for EP. A prime example for how good reclassing can be especially early is jakob/felicia because of their equally viable reclass abilities like jakob getting defender in chapter 7 or felicia getting viability with strategist. Its just a way to get a new experience per playthrough
Odin will remain S tier in my heart
IMO Hana deserve better, she really carried me during the early game of my lunatic playthrough, she could double and OHKO/1RKO almost any ennemies (for example master ninja at the begining of the game)
I debated B or A tier for Hana, she's a fantastic unit in Rev if only for availability alone. I didn't feel she was quite as broken as the other A-tier units but she is still a good unit.
What game are you playing in Fuga’s mild ride she does 0 damage to enemies
When I played the game she quickly became broken one-shotting every enemy with the double katana
@@inigosorneiz4536again what game are you playing in her join map she does 0 damage to the enemies
@@Cupcakkecult She does 0 damage at base without any backpack, tonics, or better weapons to 15 defense oni's. You can easily fix that and make her just snowball hard. Rev is the same game where you can turn a matchup like: 2 damage dealt, 8 taken, into 8 x 2 damage dealt, 4 taken in that same map (Str tonic, rinkah pair up (+4 str +2 defense), speed tonic to double, felicia/sakura -2 damage aura) not even counting dagger debuffs or corrins supportive personal.
Wow I enjoyed this video but these rankings are wayyy off you fr ranked the children who can be absolute gods at the bottom
Having Hana over Saizo is criminal when you take a look at her horrible bases imo. Rinkah is 10x better than her and infinitely more useful as even if she falls off due to bad growths she still makes for a great pair up bot which is also why people tend to underestimate her combat potential because they don't train her in branch of fate and keep her as a backpack. Saizo is by far the strongest ninja in rev aside from Silas having him over Kaze is actually kind of crazy because Kaze while he doesnt fall off as hard as he does in birthright he is still so much worse than in conquest because Kagero Asugi and saizo all beat him in damage and bulk especially saizo and while they join later early game rev is hard carried by Corrin Jakob anyways with archer mozu being my third slot.availabitily in rev is overrated because of that. Most of the early game unita fall off so hard because they tend to come with terrible bases unlike units that come starting chapter 11 and even then Orochi is still dogwater because you have access to Rhajat or Ophelia. Yes they require more time to get but when you get them they can basically solo the rest of the game if built right. Idk to me this list doesn't make sense.
Revelations Gunter would probably be one of the worst unit in Fire Emblem history if he didn't have this personal skill