Just Intonation vs Equal Temperament | Sounds Good
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Just Intonation vs Equal Temperament, a nuanced take
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Original Music by Sarah Feldman
Logo and graphics by samantha-garritano.com // @sultana.bambino
Eliane Radigue's name is misspelled at 11:32
MUSIC LINKS:
Ben Johnston String Quartet #10
• Ben Johnston / String...
Harry Partch's Instruments
• The Harry Partch Instr...
Horse Lords Live
• CHIRP FACTORY SESSION ...
Ellen Arkbro For Organ and Brass
• Ellen Arkbro - For org...
Wendy Carlos Beauty in the Beast
www.dailymotio...
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As a barbershop singer (who goes through a complex interplay between the two systems) the biggest advantage of just intonation is that this is generally (this applies to linear harmonic systems, two dimensional harmonic systems such as church bells have a different series) follow the natural overtones of the instruments. Thus, an instrument never actually plays a single note but the entire overtone series of that note, and if you play a note that isn't exactly the note of the overtone, it will clash. The biggest problem with just intonation is that it only works in that one key (with one root has the base or tonic). The second biggest problem is that if you keep balancing every interval perfectly, the result can be unstable, with the tonic drifting either upwards or downwards. Equal temperament can provide clashes between the natural overtones and the other notes in the chord but the ability to modulate from one key to another is so superior that we can (in our minds) forgive the harmonic clashes of some of the resulting chords.
However, it comes at a price. In barbershop harmony, four people sing pitches, often slightly adjusted for just intonation (although they aren't thinking in that way) so that the natural overtones combine to create a fifth voice above the voices, a technique that is called "ringing" the chord. And you can't do that in strict equal temperament.
This is the most accessible video addressing equal temperament vs. just tuning that I have seen - thank you for making and sharing this video!
visuals are killer on this whole video but the graphics at 3:52 are god tier
the text slides remind me of local58
found this vid by complete accident bc I was searching for why I can't tell 1sts and 5ths apart easily; thought "one of my favs personally is 31tet but I wanna get more "in tune" (hurr durr :B) with just intonation!"
and!
as another music nerd girl version of a pedantic white dude I gotta say I loved the explanation of this all! I was currently aware of a lot of the facts but hearing it concisely explained was satisfying! wonderful job in this vid! sound is the frequency of air pressure, so music is- in a sense- complete magic. frequency is the powerhouse of the universe! (electromagnetism is baffling)
Came for Just Intonation, stayed for Smoke on the Antique Water 😊 Keep up the good work 💙
Your first video, and you start by deconstruction and just intonation? I'm 1min and 31sec in and I have already subbed. You're giving me all I ever wanted in a music channel on youtube, please keep going and never stop! (I mean mind your mental health obvs, but I really like where this is going! )
Wow! Thank you so much for such a sweet and encouraging comment! ♥️ I very much do plan on continuing for a long time if it’s possible! ☺️
Ben Johnston's Quartet no. 4 was my first introduction to the magic of just intonation. I love how he makes the familiar melody of Amazing Grace sound ancient, earthy, even spooky.
Finally someone else who thinks about and explores music in a way that jibes with me
The most amazing just intonation music I've heard is by Zhea Erose. She also uses various EDOs most notably 31. Her compositions are stunning epic progressive harmonic series constructions, often spine tingling.
Amaze, thanks for the tip! ☺️
This is a lot of info. Thanks. I like the format of this video. Simple, clear, informative and no fluff.
This is the sound education channel I've always wanted!! TY
love to hear it! thanks for your support :)))
This video looks like it was filmed in the 80's, especially the graphics you use. Makes me feel like I'm back in school watching a video they showed us.
So good. Good production, good pacing, I love the music! And awesome information!
Aw Tysm! 💖☺️
I wanted to find a video about Julius Eastman, I found yours.
Weeks later, I wanted to find an explanation video about Just Intonation, here you are.
Thank you a lot for your work 🙏🏻✨
So many concise pointers towards what I am trying to learn about! Thanks so much 🙏🏻
Really good videos.
Question: at 2:47 shouldn’t the first frequency be 330Hz (instead of 440Hz)?
“3/2 x 220 Hz = 330Hz”?
Thanks
Also - Terry Reilly
One JI scale I think could be interesting is what I'll call the 'septimal dominant scale', which takes the same idea as Major and Minor (build the scale using the I IV and V chords) but uses 4:5:6:7 ratios instead of 4:5:6 or 10:12:15. That gives these intervals:
I: 1, 5/4, 3/2, *7/4*
IV: 4/3, 5/3, 1, *7/6*
V: 3/2, 15/8, 9/8, *21/16*
The three septimal intervals that aren't in the major scale all add their own spice. The harmonic seventh (7/4) is a chord tone, but is dissonant thanks to it not appearing in 5-limit systems. The subminor third (7/6) could be great for resolving up to the major third or down to the major second, which might allow a Isus-2 chord to feel resolved. My favourite is the subfourth (21/16) which so desperately wants to resolve down to the major third it makes the classic V-I move all the more satisfying while also adding some spicy microtonality to melodies.
Not sure if you're using a particular definition of the word, but personally I don't find 7/4 to be dissonant at all
This video is so informative and interesting! I was so fascinated with those interval tones.
Thanks so much Spencer! Glad you liked it :)
I've been picking up the lap steel. I tune it by ear to a just C6 chord. Such a smooth, dreamy sound.
Great video! Sorry if this is a little off topic but I really wish people would get on board with A = 432hz. There are some great arguments on why we shouldn't use A = 440hz. Using Cymatics alone is enough to convince me. 432hz seems to create a much more visually pleasing image than 440hz. Maybe that causes a placebo effect for me but I seem to resonate more positively with an instrument tuned to A = 432hz. I'd love to know your opinion.
Michael Harrison has 3 albums of Just-piano works in the Sufi-tradition. Very interesting since he painstakingly tunes his own pianos.
Adam Neely sent me here. I'm glad he did.
love that! welcome :)
I will watch this video again. I love this subject! Do you have any thoughts on arabic maqam and meantone, blue notes, bends, glissando and vibrato? I always thought some of the ”wrong” pitches make things more interesting and in a way more musical.
Thank you. This was a very fun and informative. Now I’m off to build some new instruments :)
Now I have some idea why music never really made sense to me. Researching all this stuff, and it's like - yeah. It's broken. I like this.
I'll watch anything you make just for the impeccable reccos! :,3
Fun to see Ellen Arkbro mentioned! I had the chance to see one of her organ performances live but it was cut short because one of the organ pipes got stuck in an open position.
Omg! Seems appropriate for an organ concert lol. that sucks tho! I would looove to see her live sometime
@@SoundsGoodChannel if you enjoy Ellen Arkbro's music,I'd suggest Maria W Horn, another Swedish artist. Her album Kontrapoetik is quite interesting.
Thanks for the tips! I’ll check those out :)
Hey Sarah! Great video and so good to see you hear sharing your many talents! You've managed to tie together some challenging concepts in a way that even I can understand :-) Thanks for the new and old music tips
J Tenney was one of my teachers at CalArts. Incredibly smart, funny and kind man.
3:27 The exact frequency ratios (7/4 969c and 7/6 267c ) can be heard in the beginning of Ellen Arkbro's For Organ and Brass!) Sounded very familiar
Great video :) I just stumbled upon your channel and the range of topics is impressive. Excited to see where you might take it in the future..
Those Lissajous figures with the pure frequency relationships are so satisfying to see!
You are amazing!!! ❤️❤️❤️🌺
This video is great! You’re awesome
Wow, what great content! I'm about to stay up too late, I can already tell.
10:14 Sevish has some great non-12-TET music, in the 'IDM' style.
nice music in this video
This is awesome! Thanks!
aw thanks so much Chris! glad you enjoyed :)
i eyeroll at myself if i ever make a dfw reference too. anyway, thanks for this very lucid & engaging explanation!! also, i listened to your grids ep - not to reduce you to other artists, but the soundscape made me think of steve reich's drumming, aphex twin's bucephalus bouncing ball, and ryuichi sakamoto's album async. in other words, very very into it (:
Hansford Rowe's Steel Blue with Jon Catler is actually on Band Camp. If you like rock with this tuning, it's highly recommended. No Other has some similar tracks too. You can tune a regular guitar to an open JI chord, or retune a piano. I have U-he Bazillie soft synth free with Computer Music magazine, and it works with the free Oddsound mts-esp mini tuner.
Thank you! I would really love a full video of yours about Wendy Carlos or Eliane Radigue
They’re both coming! :)
@@SoundsGoodChannel Sounds Good;)
Danke shone!
omg love!! So excited to subscribe
Really good explanation of a topic I've been reading up on a lot lately. Though I still have trouble hearing the difference between equal temperament and just intonation. One exception is the song "Beauty in the Beast" by Wendy Carlos, though to me the song just sounds "alien", which of course is what I like about it, but I'm not able to hear it as being more "in tune" than equal temperament. Really enjoyed the video and a few of your others, keep up the good work!
Hi! Not to detract from content, but there is a typo at 2:46. it says 3/2 * 220 = 440 (should be 330 perhaps?).
Comento para el algoritmo, saludos desde Argentina
¡Gracias! hola desde Canadá :)
Thank you so much for this essential lesson. It's 01:30, I'm dead tired, but this video kept my attention focused. How's that for a feedback? Seriously though This is actually a topic I came across during the recent year. One very interesting musician I'd like to add into the recommended list would be Dolores Catherino. I find her composing unusually mesmerizing.
i checked out her stuff and its totally mindblowing!! people say otherworldly to mean awesome most of the time but her work is truly otherworldly
Pedantic, yeah!
Thanks for the nice and informative video! The only thing I would have added is a mention to Catherine Christer Hennix among prominent JI thinkers/composers. Some of LMY's breakthrough concepts are also based on their math research. Besides that, I think they deserve as much attention as Carlos, which might have managed to escape invisibility by having an early blockbuster commercial career before transitioning.
Thanks so much for this! I was not aware of Catherine Christer Hennix, can’t wait to learn more.
You should check out Zhenna Erose's music, she makes amazing microtonal stuff, lots of it is just intonated.
yes yes yes more please
Wednesday! If all goes according to plan ☺️
@@SoundsGoodChannel Can't wait! it was so interesting, clear and resourceful, thank you very much♡♡
Thank you! 💖
I've always understood that equal temperament applies only to fretted instruments (eg piano) _or_ to fretless instruments (eg violin) only WHEN they're being played in concert with fretted instruments.
Why would the dilemma even be a dilemma for continuously variable & readily tunable instruments (violin, cello) where minute alterations in finger placement cause minute pitch change? The advent of equal temperament came about as a solution specific to fretted instruments like harpsichords. Am I missing something?
The roght temperament apply to all instruments, other way to thinking show deep ignorance!
@@LatchezarDimitrov are you saying I'm deeply ignorant? Ha.
Be blessed
How did you create the visualizations for the chords at 4:15? I know you can use an x-y oscilloscope to visualize two channels but I'm curious how you got three or more. Great video!
this Justin guy sounds pretty cool 😏
I have a question about the name "Just Intonation" . Unfortunately with the English language we sometimes run into words that have two completely different meanings. I'm wondering if it's the adjective or the adverb of Just that is being used.
have you heard of Catherine Christer Hennix? she is a very fascinating person, she led several just-intonation ensembles and did lots of drone installations, and also has an expansive body of work in philosophy, mathematics, visual art, psychoanalysis, religion, and more! would love to see a video on her :)
2500 years ago there was no fixed pitch instruments - all were variable pitch. I.e. no fixed tuning systems.
702nd like! thats a just perfect fifth in cents!
Great explanation. But I would further suggest that equal temperament is an inevitable result of practice period music, with the other pillars being tonality and homophony. Once you have those two, you almost have to have equal temperament to build out its potential. Bonus points for "equal temperament is a liberal media hoax". Also thanks for name-dropping my teacher, Lou Harrison.
The graphic at 2:49 shows "3/2 x 220 = 440".
Check out the Moog Subharmonicon synth, which is built around the subharmonic series, polyrhythms, and can be set to ET or JT tuning.
Oh sounds amazing, I will!
2:30 you wouldn't have simply changed string length in the manner you're describing, as string thickness and tension also have an equally important effect on pitch and I have no idea how primitive peoples would have gotten exactly the same tension on strings, or even manufactured truly uniform strings. Instead I'd suggest they probably played different pitches, and noticed that at specific pitch intervals the sound was especially a good match: the unison, octave, fifth, fourth, for a start. Then what we today call the maj 3rd, min 3d, various 6ths and 7ths, and subsequently the pitches in between. Their first instruments might have had strings of different lengths, and possibly even of the ratios of lengths you mention, but even after they set those ratios, and put strings on it, they still had to figure out what pitches to tune it to. Those pitches weren't output variables determined (solely) by length, rather specific goals they sought out and adjusted with tension. At best, having lengths in integral fractions would have made the tension FAIRLY uniform, when these ratios were obtained, and for a given string type (cat gut or what have you, sliced in whatever standard width) would have yielded about the same tension, which probably worked well. (e.g., not too tight for some strings and too loose for others). If you search for "Moselle Just" you'll see a software demo of mine that slides from ET to JI.
That was cool to hear
This is appropriate for electronic music, and fixed-pitched instruments but completely irrelevant for real music with variable pitch instruments which allow musicians to adjust in real-time, which we do.,
It's hard to find good musicians that know how to do it. To me the best are Jon Catler and Robert Rich. Catler has videos demonstrating his guitar, and his bands are Willie McBlind and 13'oclock Blues Band. Willie McBlind's Chicken and Canonballer are nice instrumental songs. Robert Rich isn't that flashy and some albums are very slow. The more active ones are Electric Ladder, Filaments, and Neurogenesis (the 2nd one is on Bandcamp only). The other stuff is on Spotify. He has a trippy computer animated dvd too called Atlas Dei. Catler has a great old album called Steel Blue, but it's hard to get. I've played around with an open just D7th chord on my electric guitar, low to high string: D A D F#(-15 cents) C(-30 cents) D. Or just tune the chord by ear. Check out Ben Johnston: Quartet #4 "Amazing Grace" on youtube. It's very accessible. Vocal quartets (Jacob Collier) and string quartets are likely JI since they can tune chords on the fly.
Not sure if the sequence around 3:30 is reminiscent of Ellen Arkbro or David Behrman..
I’ll have to check out David Behrman, don’t know that name!
i love
Thanks Laurie! It’s like a video graph of the two waves, where one is on the x-axis and the other is one the y-axis. JI intervals have simple, integer frequency relationships, so they make simpler, more stable patterns. The ET intervals don’t have those simpler relationships, so they look less stable.
@@SoundsGoodChannel how did you make them?
In max/msp. I think the object is called scope~
@@SoundsGoodChannel thanks ! yea i love how the visual represents the relative consonance of the interval, as u say, the Just graphs look lovely. til u get to the dominant seventh one which is just chaos
Honestly? You should sell your video background music on BandCamp.
Your oscilloscope figures make me wonder how closely (if at all) the Chladni Figures for each of those notes would look as compared to the ones as shown on the oscilliscope.
P.S. Too bad you didn't have an affiliate link for Bart Hopkin's book "Musical Instrument Design." I'll have to try and find a copy, for the reading, if not for the actual making of something.
1. Horse Lords do not use just intonation. Not even close
2. Pedal Steel Guitar players tune pulls to JI then attempt to get there with the barre, by ear. Similarly dobro slide tunings can approach JI depending on the skill of the player. Like the violin family and human singers. Harmonicas and bagpipes can get close as well.
Again, Horse Lords are nothing like just intonation. Nothing. Like.
☺️💖
2:46 i found a booboo
I had to stop watching because of the background "music." Horrible. Based on some comments I skipped ahead.... very well done. And then that background noise started again and I had to surf onward.
Damn... aren't you helpful? Thank you.
hard to listen to, sorry