But I would much rather see carbon vs steel. I did aluminum a long time ago and would not touch it again. Being better that aluminum is the lowest bar to pass.
Very excited for the new frame swap video. I own a honzo st 2023 and I somewhat agree. I came from a honzo aluminum 2019 and I swapped over to the steel 2023 because I found I was doing more enduro/DH trails. I think the honzo st is very well build for enduro riding but I agree Its not perfect for an XC trail.
That’s says a lot that you riding this more than your Santa Cruz. I love that tire combo and have it one of my steel hardtails. I definitely feel that a steel or Ti frame that is oversized, overbuilt and mass produced to ensure that it doesn’t get returned as a warranty, will not be as compliant as custom or smaller brand that is seeking a niche as a hardtail model. Also a custom metal frame is made for your weight and riding style. I’m looking forward to seeing the new custom steel Neuhaus frame getting built up. I’m deciding on my next hardtail and this one is on the top of my list.
I ride Santiago Oaks all the time and I usually ride from home and a hard tail is my choice most of the time, I don’t ride as aggressive anymore and enjoy the all around versatility of hard tales, thanks for sharing your thoughts and videos. I build up a niner AIR9 and it’s been a fun bike for my riding style but can’t wait for the hummingbird build 👍🏻😎🤙🏻
I suspect you'll love the Neuhaus! I have a Solstice, but in hindsight I often wonder if the Hummingbird may have suited my riding better. Really excited to see you get it built up and hear your thoughts!
@@stephenkohler3472I think Nick Neuhaus said 95% of customers think they need a Solstice and 95% of them would actually be better served by a Hummingbird.
@@dragonflyseven474 Yeah, I saw that. And I am pretty tempted by the hummingbird for smooth, flowy trails but I want something that's a little more at home on black diamond trails than that. Looking for a Moab daily driver. Doesn't need to be extreme but shouldn't hold me back either.
love my honzo carbon. use it ride xc, dh, alpine and bikepaking. it just does everything. weighs 25lbs with a fox 34. a killer, bomber set up for the last 4 years.
I have a 2023 Honzo ST also. I love it. That being said, it isn't the smoothest ride in the world, but it's built to be a tank that'll take a beating for years, and I'm confident that it will. It's a hell of a lot smoother ride than a Honzo DL that much is for sure.
I did pretty much what you are doing last year. I have a '23 Honzo DL in large and really like riding it especially set up as a single speed. I then bought a Vassago Mooseknuckle also in large and swapped everyhing over from the Honzo to the Moose except the head set, bottom bracket and dropper. There is a very noticeable difference in the ride quality. The Ti of the Moose is so much smoother and almost feels like it has short travel suspension and a far quieter ride than the Al frame. Excited to see how you feel about the swap you are undertaking.
The honzo is built like a friggin tank the minute you said there's something preventing you to love it I knew what it was, I felt into the same fallacy. Anyway they sell well on the used market 😂🎉
Feel like that'd definitely be a big plus for some uses, one of steel's other benefits is being able to get it repaired at basically any shop with a welder if you break something on a cross-country ride or the like. (assuming you can even break anything on this.) Just... doesn't seem like that's the selling point that's been advertised for it.
Nice video, I have a Pole Taival steel hard tail, and my local bike shop guy told me swapped his Pole to Honzo and likes the Kona more. I’ll have to ask him what he feels the differences are 🤔
When you mentioned technical terrain immediately knew you were gonna show that stupid thick branch on the right. I just got back into mtb from gravel and it’s like I forgot how to ride a bike.
Well, I always think people underestimate the mental side of comparing things. I spoke to a well known framebuilder a view years ago and he stated that the rear triangle will never be flexy because of the nature of the triangle construction. The seatstays can't push inward. So he said it's the wheel/tire and seatpost that makes a bike feel “compliant”. Maybe trail vibration is another story. I've never seen a lab test of some sort on this, would be interesting.
Yea that’s the ultimate test. Slap a bunch of strain gauges all over and flex the frame across different axes. Of course the triangle design isn’t prone to flex, but I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘a triangle never flexes.’ I tend to think of frames as a mechanical low pass filter with a certain bandwidth of frequency attenuation. Has more to do with the vibrational properties of the steel than the triangular shape. Anyways, the proverbial butt-dyno is the best we can do for the moment
Are you able to further reduce the travel on your Revelation fork, I thought 120 travel was recommended for the Hummingbird? I'd love to get your cost/benefit thoughts on a fork upgrade when you get the Revelation on the new bike. I have an older 130mm Sektor fork on a Ragley Big Al and am always wondering if it's worth upgrading to something better.
Right. Recommended travel on the hummingbird ranges from 110-130 I think, depending on frame size. I may adjust it, but I really want an apples to apples frame comparison video first
If you want compliance from any (hardtail) frame, it has to be made-to-measure - a Kona mass production frame is going to be 'heaviest possible rider' compatible.
Do you think you can review a Sklar Tall Tale hardtail? It's his first production hardtail made in Taiwan & supposed to meet his ride quality standards. A bit slacker than the Honzo ST & 130-140mm of travel.
Given you are an engineer, I'd love to see you put them in a Cad software or physically test and help answer deflection or whatever other propert it would be. I wonder how much the placebo effect plays in budget v baller comparisons.
I'm not a bicycle engineer, and I hope I'm not being too retro grouchy, but the sleek steel Konas from the 90s might have been better in certain ways than this bike, It does seem a little overbuilt.
I would love to own some day if it is still available in Scarab cycles, gravel model: Darien. Cinelli bikes have great handcrafted Columbus tubing probably making it responsive and stiff light and at the same time if it makes sense but the Gazzetta de la strada is a nice price point and they deliver to north America. Bombtrack are getting into hybrid gravel with front suspension but with little travel and have already released a bike targeting I don't know what kind of ride objective but ya there we have it.
I love the idea of a comparison where the only thing you change is the frame. I know that’s a ton of work, so thank you for doing that.
But I would much rather see carbon vs steel. I did aluminum a long time ago and would not touch it again. Being better that aluminum is the lowest bar to pass.
@@bcc1955 Aluminum, steel, and carbon can all be used well or poorly. You can’t write off an entire material based on one frame.
Make those videos exactly how you said it! Great idea!
🫡 will do
Great video and review!…looking forward to seeing the next hardtail!…😎
Very excited for the new frame swap video.
I own a honzo st 2023 and I somewhat agree. I came from a honzo aluminum 2019 and I swapped over to the steel 2023 because I found I was doing more enduro/DH trails. I think the honzo st is very well build for enduro riding but I agree Its not perfect for an XC trail.
That’s says a lot that you riding this more than your Santa Cruz. I love that tire combo and have it one of my steel hardtails. I definitely feel that a steel or Ti frame that is oversized, overbuilt and mass produced to ensure that it doesn’t get returned as a warranty, will not be as compliant as custom or smaller brand that is seeking a niche as a hardtail model. Also a custom metal frame is made for your weight and riding style.
I’m looking forward to seeing the new custom steel Neuhaus frame getting built up. I’m deciding on my next hardtail and this one is on the top of my list.
I ride Santiago Oaks all the time and I usually ride from home and a hard tail is my choice most of the time, I don’t ride as aggressive anymore and enjoy the all around versatility of hard tales, thanks for sharing your thoughts and videos. I build up a niner AIR9 and it’s been a fun bike for my riding style but can’t wait for the hummingbird build 👍🏻😎🤙🏻
I suspect you'll love the Neuhaus! I have a Solstice, but in hindsight I often wonder if the Hummingbird may have suited my riding better. Really excited to see you get it built up and hear your thoughts!
How do you like the Solstice? That's the bike I've been considering more than any other lately.
@@stephenkohler3472I think Nick Neuhaus said 95% of customers think they need a Solstice and 95% of them would actually be better served by a Hummingbird.
@@dragonflyseven474 Yeah, I saw that. And I am pretty tempted by the hummingbird for smooth, flowy trails but I want something that's a little more at home on black diamond trails than that.
Looking for a Moab daily driver. Doesn't need to be extreme but shouldn't hold me back either.
love my honzo carbon. use it ride xc, dh, alpine and bikepaking. it just does everything. weighs 25lbs with a fox 34. a killer, bomber set up for the last 4 years.
Only 4?
@@TheBikeSauce hey some.guys r.more about fnnen with their bikes, upgrades.and.changing bikes every year. I'm.no.bougie.and like.to.ride
Haha nah I read it wrong. Thought you said your you had ‘a killer setup that will last 4 years’
I have a 2023 Honzo ST also. I love it. That being said, it isn't the smoothest ride in the world, but it's built to be a tank that'll take a beating for years, and I'm confident that it will. It's a hell of a lot smoother ride than a Honzo DL that much is for sure.
I did pretty much what you are doing last year. I have a '23 Honzo DL in large and really like riding it especially set up as a single speed. I then bought a Vassago Mooseknuckle also in large and swapped everyhing over from the Honzo to the Moose except the head set, bottom bracket and dropper. There is a very noticeable difference in the ride quality. The Ti of the Moose is so much smoother and almost feels like it has short travel suspension and a far quieter ride than the Al frame. Excited to see how you feel about the swap you are undertaking.
The honzo is built like a friggin tank the minute you said there's something preventing you to love it I knew what it was, I felt into the same fallacy. Anyway they sell well on the used market 😂🎉
Feel like that'd definitely be a big plus for some uses, one of steel's other benefits is being able to get it repaired at basically any shop with a welder if you break something on a cross-country ride or the like. (assuming you can even break anything on this.) Just... doesn't seem like that's the selling point that's been advertised for it.
Like all your other videos... Great insight into the bike.
My Honzo ST is the only steel frame I've ever owned and I love it. Looking forward to your take on the higher end Hummingbird
Is a great frame. I haven’t had any functional issues since I got it
Nice video, I have a Pole Taival steel hard tail, and my local bike shop guy told me swapped his Pole to Honzo and likes the Kona more. I’ll have to ask him what he feels the differences are 🤔
Interesting now I know Kona sells steel and Neuhaus as well. I heard Soma steel frames are good and Marino.
Look forward to the follow up video
Can this take a 120 fork? My local bike shop showed the same frame to me and told me it’s an xc frame but I doubt it.
When you mentioned technical terrain immediately knew you were gonna show that stupid thick branch on the right. I just got back into mtb from gravel and it’s like I forgot how to ride a bike.
That Neuhaus will be what you were looking for in ride quality I bet- super nice frame, definitely a much higher quality than the Kona…
Well, I always think people underestimate the mental side of comparing things. I spoke to a well known framebuilder a view years ago and he stated that the rear triangle will never be flexy because of the nature of the triangle construction. The seatstays can't push inward. So he said it's the wheel/tire and seatpost that makes a bike feel “compliant”. Maybe trail vibration is another story. I've never seen a lab test of some sort on this, would be interesting.
Yea that’s the ultimate test. Slap a bunch of strain gauges all over and flex the frame across different axes. Of course the triangle design isn’t prone to flex, but I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘a triangle never flexes.’ I tend to think of frames as a mechanical low pass filter with a certain bandwidth of frequency attenuation. Has more to do with the vibrational properties of the steel than the triangular shape. Anyways, the proverbial butt-dyno is the best we can do for the moment
the stays on your honzo look different from my 2020. i recall that mine had flattened seatstays that were supposed to improve flex. 🤷♂️
Are you able to further reduce the travel on your Revelation fork, I thought 120 travel was recommended for the Hummingbird?
I'd love to get your cost/benefit thoughts on a fork upgrade when you get the Revelation on the new bike. I have an older 130mm Sektor fork on a Ragley Big Al and am always wondering if it's worth upgrading to something better.
Right. Recommended travel on the hummingbird ranges from 110-130 I think, depending on frame size. I may adjust it, but I really want an apples to apples frame comparison video first
I have Honzo carbon which rides beautifully, and is definitely not harsh.
What cassette did you use?
If you want compliance from any (hardtail) frame, it has to be made-to-measure - a Kona mass production frame is going to be 'heaviest possible rider' compatible.
There you go. 🤘
Really curious for the suppleness test, is it going to hit soon?
im very curious about the neuhaus. it looks cool
Do you think you can review a Sklar Tall Tale hardtail? It's his first production hardtail made in Taiwan & supposed to meet his ride quality standards. A bit slacker than the Honzo ST & 130-140mm of travel.
Man, I’d love to
@@TheBikeSauce maybe followers can ask Sklar to get you a review unit? Or maybe you can ask Adam on to the channel.
Can that 2018 Revelation drop travel down to 120mm?
Given you are an engineer, I'd love to see you put them in a Cad software or physically test and help answer deflection or whatever other propert it would be. I wonder how much the placebo effect plays in budget v baller comparisons.
I'm already subscribed, but I assure you that I subscribed again.
😆🤘🤘
Hahaha yes fellow hummingbird owner, it's so insane. Nimble and soft.
What is the difference in geometry b/n the two?
Great question. I’ll go through the numbers next time, but they’re somewhat similar on bike insights
I'm not a bicycle engineer, and I hope I'm not being too retro grouchy, but the sleek steel Konas from the 90s might have been better in certain ways than this bike, It does seem a little overbuilt.
❤
Replace saying steel is real with .8/.5/.8 is great…Or whatever the butting profile is
I would love to own some day if it is still available in Scarab cycles, gravel model: Darien. Cinelli bikes have great handcrafted Columbus tubing probably making it responsive and stiff light and at the same time if it makes sense but the Gazzetta de la strada is a nice price point and they deliver to north America. Bombtrack are getting into hybrid gravel with front suspension but with little travel and have already released a bike targeting I don't know what kind of ride objective but ya there we have it.
Your not pushing it hard enough looks like your riding XC the honzo only shines in the chunk.
I just don’t have much footy from the rowdier trails
Also, I’d argue that the chunk is where the honzo kind of falls off. It’s where the harshness starts to affect my riding