OMG, I love you and thank you for re-winding the film episode. We misplaced our m35 booklet of instructions. Difficult to rewind film. Mike...................thank you.
I had an Ektar H35 and while I loved the fact that I could take more pictures, the labs around here said they cannot develop those pictures. I got it done in Spain when I went to visit family. Now I got this one. I put in the film already and sometimes when I roll to be able to take the next picture, the rewind tab does not move sometimes. I made sure to put it on like you said. Had the same problem with the other camera but still I got pictures. We'll see how it goes :)
Looks to be almost exactly the same as my Kodak MB-10 that I got in the late 90's. Fantastic vacation camera, as it cost pretty much the same as a disposable camera, and frankly, basically is a disposable camera except you can change the film yourself. 😀 Excellent idea by Kodak to start production of this kinds of cameras again.
Thank you for all the comments. I wish I could answer all of them but we're just reviewing and giving tips. We're not the manufacturer. I will say - the camera is made of plastic so it it takes a bump or a fall or if you're too rough with it - it can easily break.
I was one minute away from breaking this camera trying turn the lever without pushing the button on the bottom, until I heard you say, "press the bottom button to rewind!" Thank you!!!!
Probably cool for LOMOGRAPHY, but you could pick up something like a Canon Rebel S wit a kit lens for about the same price. That being said, I want a pink one.
I bought one of these cameras about a year ago and loved it! After maybe 5 rounds of film the flash stopped working. I tried changing the batteries a couple of times and it still didn't work. I take most of my photos in darker lighting, I found even in good lighting that the photos without the flash were pretty bad. Not sure what to do but I am pretty sure the camera is just garbage now.
This happened to me! You just need to check if the metal connectors are actually touching the battery. I have to pull them forward almost every time I change the film
Just got one of these. Exactly the same colour as yours. Looking forward to having a play about. Its fun to see. New cameras in the shops. Got some Kodak Ultramax 400 to try it out
I’m thinking of getting one of these bc i usually buy a disposable for the summer but there’s a shortage and these are currently the same price as a disposable. thank you for the demonstration!
There is another way to tell if the film is engaged that I use on all my film cameras with a rewind knob. When you advance the film, look at the rewind knob. It should move, sometimes just a little bit. If it's not moving at all, the film is most likely not engaged.
@@AnythingWithRice Try rewinding just a tiny bit. If there is no resistance, then it's pretty safe to open the camera and reload the film. If you're not comfortable doing that in the light, go into a completely dark room like a closet and open the back of the camera. If you feel the end of the film, it's not loaded properly on the takeup spool. Just reload it and you should be good to go. If you feel film across the whole length of the film track and around the spool, something else could be wrong. Rewind the film and inspect the camera before using it again.
Ill ve getting this camera next week, i didnt even realise it ran on film, thisll be a cool experience, i hope i can find a place in my town to develop this😅
Local pharmacies no longer develop film and if they do, they'll sent it out (and you might not even get your negatives back). Recommend: thedarkroom.com
@@FilmPhotographyProject Thanks for the responce! I certainly didnt expect one. My town is a but older, so there is still a place you can get it developed, my grandma confirmed you get your negatives back too!
Thank you for this! I just got an m38 and loading seemed to go ok, however the flash doesn't seem to work at all. Devastated that I put in an expensive roll of film, don't know why I did that. Hoping somehow they all turn out...
We developed a roll and the first couple photos came out well, but the rest half black with only part of the picture coming through. Not sure what we did wrong. They were all outdoor photo during the day.
Reminds me of those old cameras my mom got for me at the store and take photos for her on my field trips. I like digital cameras but something about 35mm i still love. Shame most stores in my area sale mainly cheap 35mm style cameras. Parents are hinting at a good quality 35mm cameara, do you have any recommendations or where i can get one? Links if possible?
The last 35mm film SLR made is the nikon F6 which was discontinued in 2020, nowadays only rangefinders are left, and leica's MP is the only one with quality, but its $5000... Kodak and fujifilm still makes film cameras but they're all crappy point and shoots. Theres practically no market for quality film cameras, Hipsters shoot on film precisely because it looks like sh*t and all the proffesionals have moved on to digital and the few that didn't held onto their old cameras. The only decent 35mm camera you can find nowadays is used.
3:20 Frankenstein? That's fronk en Steen!!!! 😁 (Was watching Mel Brooks before this video). On a more serious note, this could become a sort of brownie camera for the new millennium. If only they thought to make it in brown.
So I have this and it used to work perfectly and now it won’t let me advance the film anymore. It’s been a while since I used it so I thought maybe I forgot how to load the film but I used a roll of ruined film to see how it was advancing inside and that little wheel that is supposed to grab it will suddenly let go of the film and it acts like it’s jammed. Do you know if it’s because I’m loading it wrong or is it the camera broken? I have a canon ae-1 and have no problems loading that one
H, how do I know my roll is full? Does it stop or do I have any indicator? I fell like I have been using the same roll forever, am I taking pictures above others and ruining them?
Didn't you watch the video?! - th-cam.com/video/VDGFcq--84g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=oaeQ7kfIpVPbbT3y&t=450
2 ปีที่แล้ว +1
Hi! In checking if the m35 point and shoot camera is working without film (time stamp 4:00), is the same with m38? Because mine is m38 and the shutter doesn’t “open” and “close” like what was in your video.
I bought one of these recently and the film came off the sprocket 9 shots in :( I was recommended to tape the film to the cylinder after first latching it onto the sprocket, do you think this would work?
I have bought two of these cameras but each time the flash stops working and I'm not sure what is the cause of it. Can you tell me if you've run into the same problem and how you fixed it? Or should I just invest in a more expensive film camera?
I bought my camera almost a year ago and used two films. Then left it unused for about 6 months. I loaded it with a new film and the flash is not working.
Hi, i have this same camera and opened the back ( in the dark, photos are not ruined) but it jumped back to S from 14 , will i have any problems with these or should i just keep count of how many i got left?
a question here: when u didn't took any photo yet and you just put the film on and then opened the back of the camera just to check things out, nothing bad happens, right ?
very helping video! what happens if i open the back of the camera while the film isnt finished yet? do i lose the photos ive already taken? or i can keep using this film?
How did you unjam the camera? I think I’ve jammed mine, I managed to get the film out successfully but I’ve struggled to get the film back in as the little spinning dial which you use to wind the film is no longer spinning
It's my first time using this camera and I'm worried if it's taking the pictures correctly because of this space on the film counter, I'm using a 36 exp film but I'm sure I've been taking way more pictures 😱 between the numbers there's always this space where I'm able to shoot and I don't know if it's working or it has a problem
@@ximenahernandez1993 if you are almost certain it's taking more photos then like 36 or whatever it's likely that the films not getting pulled. The most I've ever gotten out of a 36 exp film is 39.
Hey, thanks for this video! Hope this gets answered, but I have the same problem at the 6:34 mark and was wondering how I would fix that? Would it be wise to open the back and reload the film again? Thanks in advance! :)
The rewind and roll extraction process seems quite fiddly. The threading of a new roll is too. This is clearly not for kids. Not a kids camera. I had thought about this for my young school aged daughter. Clearly not appropriate for her.
I accidentally pressed the button you press to wind the film back into the canister. Now the film roll won’t advance to the next exposure, the film advance wheel just keeps on turning. I only used 6 out of the 24 exposures. Any hope for me to be able to use the rest of the film roll? Or should I just wind the film back into the canister and develop the 6 exposures I used up?
Hi I have a question. I already took 6 shots from my M35 camera with a 36exp film but I suddenly opened the back of my camera and it got back to the S. Did I lose all the 6 shots I’ve taken? Also can I still use the 7th-36th shots, will it still be developed normally?
Never open the back of a film camera until the roll is completed. By doing so, you reset your counter and expose some frames - ruining them. The rest of the roll should be fine. Now that the counter is incorrect, make sure you don't try to shoot the 36 exposures or you will jam the camera (as discussed on the video).
@@FilmPhotographyProject Hi! Thank you for your reply. It got back to S right, so when I wind it, it shows the number 1 again. What do I have to do? Do I have to shot 3-4 times so I can use the rest of the roll normally?
i have a question. i was using the camera as normal and it was fine until the frame counter went back to 1 all of a sudden. i had taken about 18 photos as well. what does this mean? i continued to finish up the roll anyways just in case, and ive rewinded the film ready to develop. will anything happen to the photos? im just confused on why the counter went back to 1
@@FilmPhotographyProject nope i did not…but i actually got my film developed today and it came out perfectly fine…no photos were damaged :) so i think my frame counter is the only issue here i have another question….i took photos outside on a normal day, it wasn’t as sunny so I used flash outdoors but the pictures came out dark…why is that? should i never use flash outdoors?
i have a question my m35 number doesn't more? its stuck on "S" but when I turn it it stops and I can feel the film moving so what did i do wrong did i put in the film wrongly or is it a camera problem
Yes. You need to cock the shutter and fire the camera (by turning the little wheel inside the camera) as demonstrated in the video. th-cam.com/video/VDGFcq--84g/w-d-xo.html
hi, i just finished my first film roll just fine. when i rewound it, it's still stuck on 30. i've inserted my second roll and when i tried to rewind it, it's still stuck on 30 and it released the film inside, what should i do?
Hi Denise, I've read lots of reports about problems with the film counter indicator. Not sure how to fix that but I do recommend shooting 24 exposure film rolls. The camera doesn't handle longer rolls very well. - Mike
The subtleties in the editing is pure gold and right up my honour alley
Thank you so much for this video! I was really struggling to load the film! I used to work with a very old Pentax and am excited to get back into it!
OMG, I love you and thank you for re-winding the film episode. We misplaced our m35 booklet of instructions. Difficult to rewind film. Mike...................thank you.
I love the editing so much. It’s the subtle things🖤
Many thanks (chuckling) - Mike
Nice to see a kind of comedic video on film cameras rather than all the serious videos
I had an Ektar H35 and while I loved the fact that I could take more pictures, the labs around here said they cannot develop those pictures. I got it done in Spain when I went to visit family.
Now I got this one. I put in the film already and sometimes when I roll to be able to take the next picture, the rewind tab does not move sometimes. I made sure to put it on like you said. Had the same problem with the other camera but still I got pictures.
We'll see how it goes :)
Looks to be almost exactly the same as my Kodak MB-10 that I got in the late 90's. Fantastic vacation camera, as it cost pretty much the same as a disposable camera, and frankly, basically is a disposable camera except you can change the film yourself. 😀
Excellent idea by Kodak to start production of this kinds of cameras again.
Thank you for all the comments. I wish I could answer all of them but we're just reviewing and giving tips. We're not the manufacturer. I will say - the camera is made of plastic so it it takes a bump or a fall or if you're too rough with it - it can easily break.
I was one minute away from breaking this camera trying turn the lever without pushing the button on the bottom, until I heard you say, "press the bottom button to rewind!" Thank you!!!!
Probably cool for LOMOGRAPHY, but you could pick up something like a Canon Rebel S wit a kit lens for about the same price. That being said, I want a pink one.
I bought one of these cameras about a year ago and loved it! After maybe 5 rounds of film the flash stopped working. I tried changing the batteries a couple of times and it still didn't work. I take most of my photos in darker lighting, I found even in good lighting that the photos without the flash were pretty bad. Not sure what to do but I am pretty sure the camera is just garbage now.
This happened to me! You just need to check if the metal connectors are actually touching the battery. I have to pull them forward almost every time I change the film
same
Just got one of these. Exactly the same colour as yours. Looking forward to having a play about. Its fun to see. New cameras in the shops. Got some Kodak Ultramax 400 to try it out
Gosh, this editing makes me want to go listen to some more of the podcast, it's been a *while* since I tuned in
Would love for you to join us - filmphotographyproject.com/content/podcast/
I’m thinking of getting one of these bc i usually buy a disposable for the summer but there’s a shortage and these are currently the same price as a disposable. thank you for the demonstration!
I think this may be even cheaper than the camera they gave away with Time subscriptions in the 80's.
Just got one! Had no trouble loading it! Like the old drug PSA: I learned it by watching you! I also do the cheat sheet, great idea!
There is another way to tell if the film is engaged that I use on all my film cameras with a rewind knob. When you advance the film, look at the rewind knob. It should move, sometimes just a little bit. If it's not moving at all, the film is most likely not engaged.
what should i do if it's not moving/engaged? i want to avoid blank as much as possible
@@AnythingWithRice Try rewinding just a tiny bit. If there is no resistance, then it's pretty safe to open the camera and reload the film. If you're not comfortable doing that in the light, go into a completely dark room like a closet and open the back of the camera. If you feel the end of the film, it's not loaded properly on the takeup spool. Just reload it and you should be good to go. If you feel film across the whole length of the film track and around the spool, something else could be wrong. Rewind the film and inspect the camera before using it again.
Can confirm, can't load film drunk
LMAO SAME
Same lmfaoooo
should i buy this as my first film camera
That was so informative! Most helpful guide out there! 🔥
Ill ve getting this camera next week, i didnt even realise it ran on film, thisll be a cool experience, i hope i can find a place in my town to develop this😅
Local pharmacies no longer develop film and if they do, they'll sent it out (and you might not even get your negatives back). Recommend: thedarkroom.com
@@FilmPhotographyProject Thanks for the responce! I certainly didnt expect one. My town is a but older, so there is still a place you can get it developed, my grandma confirmed you get your negatives back too!
Thank you for this! I just got an m38 and loading seemed to go ok, however the flash doesn't seem to work at all. Devastated that I put in an expensive roll of film, don't know why I did that. Hoping somehow they all turn out...
So nice that film is coming back.
We developed a roll and the first couple photos came out well, but the rest half black with only part of the picture coming through. Not sure what we did wrong. They were all outdoor photo during the day.
Hello! Why does the film counter on my m38 keeps on going back and fort to 1 and S even though i've already shot 16 photos? Thanks!
I'm normally not interested in plasticy cameras like this, but it's kind of cute!
love your video, if i accidentally rolled my film back, would my numbers keep going up?
Reminds me of those old cameras my mom got for me at the store and take photos for her on my field trips. I like digital cameras but something about 35mm i still love. Shame most stores in my area sale mainly cheap 35mm style cameras. Parents are hinting at a good quality 35mm cameara, do you have any recommendations or where i can get one? Links if possible?
The last 35mm film SLR made is the nikon F6 which was discontinued in 2020, nowadays only rangefinders are left, and leica's MP is the only one with quality, but its $5000...
Kodak and fujifilm still makes film cameras but they're all crappy point and shoots.
Theres practically no market for quality film cameras, Hipsters shoot on film precisely because it looks like sh*t and all the proffesionals have moved on to digital and the few that didn't held onto their old cameras.
The only decent 35mm camera you can find nowadays is used.
3:20 Frankenstein?
That's fronk en Steen!!!!
😁 (Was watching Mel Brooks before this video).
On a more serious note, this could become a sort of brownie camera for the new millennium. If only they thought to make it in brown.
So I have this and it used to work perfectly and now it won’t let me advance the film anymore. It’s been a while since I used it so I thought maybe I forgot how to load the film but I used a roll of ruined film to see how it was advancing inside and that little wheel that is supposed to grab it will suddenly let go of the film and it acts like it’s jammed. Do you know if it’s because I’m loading it wrong or is it the camera broken? I have a canon ae-1 and have no problems loading that one
H, how do I know my roll is full? Does it stop or do I have any indicator? I fell like I have been using the same roll forever, am I taking pictures above others and ruining them?
Didn't you watch the video?! - th-cam.com/video/VDGFcq--84g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=oaeQ7kfIpVPbbT3y&t=450
Hi! In checking if the m35 point and shoot camera is working without film (time stamp 4:00), is the same with m38? Because mine is m38 and the shutter doesn’t “open” and “close” like what was in your video.
The m35 has different a different apperture when you engage the flash, so thats why it might help on daylight
I bought one of these recently and the film came off the sprocket 9 shots in :( I was recommended to tape the film to the cylinder after first latching it onto the sprocket, do you think this would work?
Everything before 4:50 when he finally shows you how, is 100% pain.
Very helpful thank you
I have bought two of these cameras but each time the flash stops working and I'm not sure what is the cause of it. Can you tell me if you've run into the same problem and how you fixed it? Or should I just invest in a more expensive film camera?
Some tips - battery dead? change the battery or check the connection. This could happen if you leave the flash in the on position.
I also encounter the same problem
I bought my camera almost a year ago and used two films. Then left it unused for about 6 months. I loaded it with a new film and the flash is not working.
Hi, i have this same camera and opened the back ( in the dark, photos are not ruined) but it jumped back to S from 14 , will i have any problems with these or should i just keep count of how many i got left?
I hit all those errors thank you for sharing though
Thank you 🫶🏾
what if the film advance wheel got really hard to move/slide while i already put the film in it? I'm using Lomoapparat with Kodak colorful 200
a question here: when u didn't took any photo yet and you just put the film on and then opened the back of the camera just to check things out, nothing bad happens, right ?
If you open the back of your camera when film is loaded, it will expose and ruin part of your film roll.
Thank u so much !!!!!
Very useful video. Thank you!!
very helping video! what happens if i open the back of the camera while the film isnt finished yet? do i lose the photos ive already taken? or i can keep using this film?
Film is light sensitive so when you open the back of the camera with film in it you will lose those shots that get exposed. Don't do it.
@@FilmPhotographyProject thank you for the reply! can I keep using the same film tho?
I did this too!! I opened the back of my camera :( did I lose all the shots I’ve taken? And also can I still use the same film?
Learned a lot! Thanks to you
Michael,
Would you do a tutorial review like this of the Kodak i-60?
Great idea. Will see if we can get one here at The FPP. - Mike
th-cam.com/video/1v0EGdWJtKE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=sB5XLtf3QcnMf5tS
How did you unjam the camera? I think I’ve jammed mine, I managed to get the film out successfully but I’ve struggled to get the film back in as the little spinning dial which you use to wind the film is no longer spinning
Did u try to click the shot bottom? Mine was like that, I just clicked it and it worked again :)
Did you ever fix yours? Mine is same now I’m looking for solutions
It's my first time using this camera and I'm worried if it's taking the pictures correctly because of this space on the film counter, I'm using a 36 exp film but I'm sure I've been taking way more pictures 😱 between the numbers there's always this space where I'm able to shoot and I don't know if it's working or it has a problem
Same thing happened to me, did your reveal your pictures?
@@ximenahernandez1993 if you are almost certain it's taking more photos then like 36 or whatever it's likely that the films not getting pulled. The most I've ever gotten out of a 36 exp film is 39.
my film was loaded properly but i got 1/36 photos back and it was black. what did i do wrong? is it because i opened the back when rolling it up?
Film is light sensitive before it is developed. If you expose your film to light (before developing) it probably ruined your images.
Hi, I’m trying to add my film but my wheel is stuck it won’t turn, have I broken it🤣 or is there a fix please?
Hi Lauren, Only what I have shown in the video.(Make sure you're not turning the wheel the wrong way.)
lovee thee editihngg
How do I travel with film? Do I load it under the cabin?
Hey, thanks for this video! Hope this gets answered, but I have the same problem at the 6:34 mark and was wondering how I would fix that? Would it be wise to open the back and reload the film again? Thanks in advance! :)
Open the back in complete dark, remove the film (pulling the extra film back into the cassette) and then reload.
@@FilmPhotographyProject Thank you! Finally got it to work :)
Can anyone help me? I keep retrying to reload and as I wind it the rewind button clicks, despite me not touching it, and knocking the film off.
The rewind and roll extraction process seems quite fiddly. The threading of a new roll is too. This is clearly not for kids. Not a kids camera. I had thought about this for my young school aged daughter. Clearly not appropriate for her.
Not for kids. (Maybe not for adults either LOL) Consider purchasing a vintage Minolta point & shoot on eBay.
Really good video thanks a lot!! :)
I just bought this camera and noticed it has many teeth on the spool instead of just having just one teeth like yours. Is that considered normal?
Sounds like a better design!
me too, so much easier!
What about if it’s stuck on “s” but when I advance the roll it does stop, making me think it’s working lol.
Do you think 126 film will come back? It's basically a taller 110 film
I wouldn't think so, not really a reason to shoot it over 135
@@chainsaw2046 it would be nice because you have some really pretty cameras and the film is cool
does anyone know until what number the exposure counter of the kodak m35 shows? mine reset back to S after 15-20 something shots
I accidentally pressed the button you press to wind the film back into the canister. Now the film roll won’t advance to the next exposure, the film advance wheel just keeps on turning. I only used 6 out of the 24 exposures. Any hope for me to be able to use the rest of the film roll? Or should I just wind the film back into the canister and develop the 6 exposures I used up?
Pressing the button on the bottom shouldn't hinder advancing the film. Perhaps film not loaded properly?
Hi I have a question. I already took 6 shots from my M35 camera with a 36exp film but I suddenly opened the back of my camera and it got back to the S. Did I lose all the 6 shots I’ve taken? Also can I still use the 7th-36th shots, will it still be developed normally?
Never open the back of a film camera until the roll is completed. By doing so, you reset your counter and expose some frames - ruining them. The rest of the roll should be fine. Now that the counter is incorrect, make sure you don't try to shoot the 36 exposures or you will jam the camera (as discussed on the video).
@@FilmPhotographyProject Hi! Thank you for your reply. It got back to S right, so when I wind it, it shows the number 1 again. What do I have to do? Do I have to shot 3-4 times so I can use the rest of the roll normally?
Hi my camera I’ve taken 6 pictures. I went to re-roll the circle thing and it won’t click to let me take another picture!! Please help me!
Sounds like its not loaded properly. Hard to troubleshoot without visual.
i have a question. i was using the camera as normal and it was fine until the frame counter went back to 1 all of a sudden. i had taken about 18 photos as well. what does this mean? i continued to finish up the roll anyways just in case, and ive rewinded the film ready to develop. will anything happen to the photos? im just confused on why the counter went back to 1
Did you open the back of the camera anytime after your roll was loaded?
@@FilmPhotographyProject nope i did not…but i actually got my film developed today and it came out perfectly fine…no photos were damaged :) so i think my frame counter is the only issue here
i have another question….i took photos outside on a normal day, it wasn’t as sunny so I used flash outdoors but the pictures came out dark…why is that? should i never use flash outdoors?
i have a question my m35 number doesn't more? its stuck on "S" but when I turn it it stops and I can feel the film moving so what did i do wrong did i put in the film wrongly or is it a camera problem
Possible camera error. Keep track of the # of shots. See if it happens again when reloading.
@@FilmPhotographyProject okay thank you!
Hello! Can the flash be tested without inserting film?
Yes. You need to cock the shutter and fire the camera (by turning the little wheel inside the camera) as demonstrated in the video. th-cam.com/video/VDGFcq--84g/w-d-xo.html
@@FilmPhotographyProject THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!
My cam’s counter display keeps reverting to S. What does this mean?
What’s the correct battery? Just bought mine but still can’t use it
The Kodak m35 comes with a AAA battery installed.
question: do i have to wind the camera everytime i take a picture on my m35
Yes. When you snap a picture it exposes one frame of film. In order to take another picture you must advance to the next frame of film.
@@FilmPhotographyProject thank you!
where can i buy the film for this in the UK?
Hi Megan - analoguewonderland.co.uk
how do you know when the battery needs changing?
my flash doesn’t work😭
Gosh the Re-usable Lomo ones seem better made with that silly nub , course it's right to left on those. I'd much rather tape the end to the spool lol
How to turn off when not in use
My camera flash is not working, why?
How to fix a Kodak m38 if the film counter went backwards?
Mine is not moving. It stays at no.1 even though I advance the film
Oops I wound too far as I forgot what film I had in 😅 how do I try to un jam it
Addressed in the video - th-cam.com/video/VDGFcq--84g/w-d-xo.html
I have this camera and its not catching my film.
This issue is covered in the video.
For the price you pay for this camera, you can get a pretty good used analog system camera.
True.
Do not get this camera it won’t rewind your Film and will expose it
I think this video came out a little early, it’s not April 1st.
well……. i was drunk when i loaded mine
I bought one because saw a review by a Canadian TH-camr. Still overpriced. Not really made by Kodak…
The only problem I have with this camera is where it’s made.
Wow this video helps so much thank you 🙏🩷🩷🩷
hi, i just finished my first film roll just fine. when i rewound it, it's still stuck on 30. i've inserted my second roll and when i tried to rewind it, it's still stuck on 30 and it released the film inside, what should i do?
Hi Denise, I've read lots of reports about problems with the film counter indicator. Not sure how to fix that but I do recommend shooting 24 exposure film rolls. The camera doesn't handle longer rolls very well. - Mike
ive got the same camera and im unsure of what those dots represents in between numbers. what do those represents?
Dots in-between the numbers mean nothing - just design.
@@FilmPhotographyProject then if supposedly the film provides 24 exposures, should i stop at 12 or 24? since the dots are in between the numbers