I took my wife who had never been to church and went to two ELCAs and ended up in a terrific LCMS in San Diego, Grace Lutheran - it has the oldest pipe organ in California and is amazing. Very liturgical service. Very relaxing to know how we really try to honor God in his house. Thank you for you a great presentation. Always tactful and to point. A++
That implies that you feel you're somehow superior to Christians who take part in less liturgical services, and that those Christians aren't trying to honor God in His house, or that they don't think that they're also really trying to honor God in His house. Liturgy isn't a matter of honoring God. It's just a formula or rule set on how ministry and worship is to be conducted. It's a matter of formality in performance. Any denomination can potentially be liturgical.
We left the ELCA after many years of feeling like the ELCA left us. There was no NALC church near us, so we joined a local LCMS church. We are very happy here. Could you do a video about the differences between the LCMS and NALC? That would be great. Thanks.
He has a video from a few years back that outlines the differences between different Lutheran denominations. It goes through the differences between NALC and LCMS there
@@fjhforever I see, the beliefs of NALC and LCMC more or less line up with some differences in policy (governing structure) and liturgics (how the service is run)
ELCA on paper has the most memebers but not in practice. According to both LCMS and ELCA annual reports ELCA has a 483k weekly attendance while the LCMS has a 522k weekly attendance.
@@JacobWagner-o4f this is a bit misleading. The LCMS claims 522k total, while the ELCA claims 522k in person and an additional 336k online. Sources: files.lcms.org/api/download/file/annual-report-2023 elcamediaresources.blob.core.windows.net/cdn/wp-content/uploads/Summary_of_Congregational_Statistics_as_of_12-31-2023.pdf
Glad to see you are doing some more deep dives into Lutheranism. Would love to see one on ELS in Mankato Minnesota. Would love to specifically see comparison/contrast with WELS since they are in full fellowship with one another. Appreciate your videos.
This was a very good presentation of the NALC. I have attended both the NALC and LCMS. There are some differences in the worship. One is in the Apostles Creed. One says the catholic church and one says the Christian church. I am comfortable in both.
I’ve seen both used in the LCMS. We used to say “a light unto the gentiles and your people….nations has replaced gentiles in the LSB. We also used to use Holy Ghost.
@@momdad5368the reason for this is because the LCMS is German in origin. Before the reformation, when the creed was translated into German, there was no equivalent word to "Catholic" so the church translated it as "Christian". When Lutherans came to America, they translated the creed from German to English keeping the substituted word. When American Lutherans say the creed, they are using an English translation of a German translation of a Latin translation of a Greek creed. LCMS Lutherans do not reject the idea of catholicity
Randomly found your videos. I have an M.A in Biblical Studies. I have stopped being affiliated with a church because...I'm honestly sick of the milk feeding, without the ability to dig into meat. I know the church, any church, pushes the basics of Christianity to keep it as welcoming as possible to new believers...but when someone keeps telling me the wages of sin is death after 20 years without following up on the context of scripture to help me understand God's entire vision, I won't stick around. It's a shame that it took becoming a scholar to get the meat I was so desperate for. Anyways, this is a long winded way to say I'm subscribing. As for denominations, I live where Catholics marrying Lutheran's get you disowned by family. I was born and baptized Catholic, married a Lutheran and keepnthis part of my life quiet. I was also raised and baptized in so many denominations as a kid due to foster care that I really don't care about affiliation. I care about Divine Loyalty. And if a denomination cares about this, then it's fine.
While im not a fan of WO, its quite uplifting to hear they have some form of episcopate and also talk with the acna. My greatest hope is that the lutherans and Anglicans can join into one group
I don't understand how a church that opposes homosexual marriage and relations both on biblical grounds and as a doctrinal innovation, can simultaneously be comfortable with female ordination.
This position is typical of splinter groups who break away from mainline denominations over same sex marriage. Women have been ordained in mainline churches for a while so most of the churches who disapprove of that left those denominations a lot earlier.
I Sure DO. Makes perfect sense, to me. The Apostle Paul was actually (in NO way) saying Women shouldn’t be allowed to Teach &/or Preach- “FOR THE REMAINDER OF TIME.” There’s actually Not a true implication of that specification. Original Greek doesn’t even hint at a *Permanent* basis for Any Doctrine like that. In other words, there’s ZERO Biblical basis if you read it, carefully.
@@GizkaStewit does help. You made it very clear- Female Ordination Has NOTHING to do with Homosexuality. Very simple & easy to agree with, matter of Fact.
As a conservative evangelical protestant, whenever I meet a Lutheran or a Methodist, I always want to find out which kind of Lutheran or Methodist he or she is. When I see a Lutheran or a Methodist church, I always look for fine print on its sign to tell me which kind it is. We have come to the point where the kinds tell us more than the traditional labels. Some would call this unfortunate, but it has become necessary (Romans 16 : 17).
I feel the same way about Pentecostals. I’ve been scarred by so much of their false doctrine that I avoid their churches altogether. I also avoid liberal churches.
@@MikeV8652 its probably better just ask individuals what they themselves believe. I know most roman catholics dont believe half what theyre supposed to. And the same could be said of any denomination.
As someone on the conservative side within the ELCA, and knowing liberals within the LCMS, this approach of wanting to know "which kind of Lutheran" an individual person is is inaccurate and bothersome. It's like thinking you know someone's politics based on the state they live in.
@@NHNH14 Well, it might not be totally definitive, but it's better than nothing (in the political analogy, it's better than knowing only that one is a voter). In addition, asking the question might spark a deeper conversation on the variations.
Even though the NALC has fewer churches than the LCMS, WELS, or LCMC, there seem to be more NALC churches where I live (the Carolinas) than any of the previous three. A couple of my friends attend churches that left for the NALC though they still disagree with their home church's decision to leave the ELCA.
Thanks for this segment. I might have joined the NALC, but it did not exist when I left or was made to feel so unwelcome in the ELCIC that I had to leave. Eventually I found the Orthodox Church. It is the true Church that Jesus Christ established here on this earth and I thank God every day that I found it despite all the pain I suffered at the hands of the liberal Lutherans. They were not all mean, but as time past, the few good people died out and all is left is almost empty buildings where a few people meet to hear a false gospel or better said, no gospel at all. I feel particularly sorry for the older people who sacrificed so much to build these churches. They would be very sad to hear the garbage that is proclaimed in most of the ELCIC and ELCA churches today. If there are still a few good Christians there, leave before it is too late as it will only get worse. Come to Jesus in the Orthodox Church.
Very thorough description. Thank you. It seems that the NALC is closer to the Roman Catholic Church than the ELCA and I wonder how it distinguishes itself from Catholicism.
There are a lot of differences between confessional Lutherans and Catholics that may not be entirely visible to the naked eye. Those include, but are not limited to, a different understanding of salvation (imputed vs infused righteousness), the Eucharist (sacramental union vs transubstantiation), confession (“I forgive you” vs “I absolve you”, and who can do it), Holy Orders (potential for women’s ordination in some Lutheran groups + apostolic succession without a necessity of an episcopacy vs must have episcopacy for valid orders), and ecumenism (catholic vs Catholic)
I occsly. have to do that too! I think it has something to do with all the initials such as LCMS, ELCA, NALC ... your brain is busy making the connections to the words they stand for. 😇
26:21 Sounds like the spiteful people in the ELCIC and ELCA made sure the the NALC would not be welcome in the WLF. They can be so uncharitable when it comes to welcoming other people in Christ despite their rhetoric.
@@brucealanwilson4121 ELDONA barely exists. It is a tiny group. Larger confessional groups not mentioned would be the CLC (church of the Lutheran confessions) or ELS (Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
I really wish Pew and the media can differentiate between Evangelical (both Missional/Revivalist/Evangelical-Proper and Confessional Evangelicals), Mainline, Confessional, Confessing Movement, and the fringe/other/nonTrinitarian churches although there is an overlap between most of these groups. For example the ACNA and the GMC are Confessing Movement with Evangelical minorities; the NALC and LCMC, are Confessing Movement with a very influential Missional/Revivalist Evangelical substrat, at least relative to most other Lutherans and identifies as Confessional Lutherans using the “in so far as” view as opposed to other Confessional Lutherans of the “is means is” persuasion); LCMS is Confessional (Confessional Lutheran of the “is means is” persuasion), etc., etc. I also wish Pew can remove the Jehovah’s Witnesses and LDS/Mormons from the Evangelical category because that categorization is grossly inaccurate.
Women's ordination is the main sticking point. There are always some subtlies on the Bible and Lutheran Confessions (particularly the importance of the others after the Augsburg Confession). Both have been in dialogue for a handful of years, and do find support and agreement on other issues.
@@brucealanwilson4121 I don't know what you're getting at. I was just pointing out that ELDONA is next level obscure and that there are other groups that have a longer history and are larger that many miss
I've been burned enough by city names (Looking at you Cairo, IL) that I normally look up how to pronounce names that could be pronounced in an unorthodox way. That's what I did here.
To be honest, that sounds similar to the position of Polish Lutheran Church. Although it slowly goes into the direction of Church of Sweden (they cooperate).
The LCMC and NALC are definitely the largest. The AALC is technically a continuation of the American Lutheran Church, being made up of churches who chose not to join the merger to form the ELCA so I'm not sure if they count because these churches were never part of the current ELCA. There are a number of other groups but they're all much smaller with far fewer members.
@georgebernard5783 My oldest brother is in an ELCA Church.Hecbecame Lutheran as a teen and took me to church with him in an LC -MS Church.I converted to Orthodoxy in 1996.I would never join an ELCA Church because their theology is becoming apostate.They're the ones who wrote that nauseating Sparkle Creed.
That's good! After all, Jesus spoke of sin OFTEN, more often than He spoke of Heaven!! That broke my heart when he spoke what the NCLA say in their statement of faith, how they don't speak of sin or hell because it's too depressing. I have Loved Ones in the ELCA and have visited their church with them many times over the last 45 years. NOT 1 TIME have they ever spoken of sin! ... not even once!! They think they are automatically going to heaven because they "belong to God" and were baptized as a baby.... all while they get drunk several nites a week, and gamble, and cheat, and swear like there's no end of life .... or Judgement of God! These Pastors/Elders have a LOT to answer for one day! 😢📖
I'm sad that the NALC included the very same weasel words regarding the status of the Confessions other than the Augustana that the ELCA holds. I'm also sad that it includes congregations that deny the teachings of the Scriptures and the Confessions regarding baptism.
I was raised LCA, then ELCA. I left in 1994. What these groups, even in other mainline breakoffs, typically do is to try a rollback the Liberal and Neo-orthodox theology to some earlier American decade before things "went crazy". The truth is, however, that they still leave the core problems in their foundation. Women's ordination is only one problem, but it's a massive one. These denominations will eventually evolve into the very thing they left. It's unavoidable because the theological foundation is off. Thanks for the video.
I think it is more clear If you start at 15:49. I think it is saying that people who engage in premarital sex should confess their sins but also making it clear that victims of SA are not guilty of that sin themselves. I agree the wording could use some editing
So have the Lutherans split off again? Missouri Synod, American Lutheran and now this? How many denominations should there be? What are Protestants up to now 30,000 or 40,000? Whenever there is a disagreement arises, boom, another denomination of protestants. What are you protesting anyway?
Same. Honestly, I don't think a split was necessary being a large portion of ELCA churches are not much different from the NALC. Some are but it probably is not much different from my church every Sunday.
The NALC has an internal contradiction. At 2:36 it claims to follow "the treatise", in context presumably Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, while at 23:34 honoring him.
You’re correct, that is Presumptuous. You know, the thing you’re basing your whole argument on..? (I’m actually AG!) but I honor the Pope, too. But Never have & Never WiLL “Submit” to him under Any Circumstance.
Just like A Much of free range chickens...what's to say..hard to gather eggs..the Big CHURCH holding the ReView along with the Paper and ink.free ranging,multi voices is like shouting to prove a point..?.
Baptism without faith doesn't save, but an infant can be baptized and be saved because of the faith of his parents? While I agree with most of Lutheranism, this is one area that I have done my best to wrap my head around unsuccessfully. It seems to me most Lutheran pastors I've seen try to explain it falter in their confidence of it or at least ability to explain it. Such verses as "and they and their households were baptized" seems to me a weak argument for an entire doctrinal stance. Perhaps a Lutheran out there can better help me understand. I'm not trying to be belligerently ignorant, I would love to understand the position better than what I've heard so far which has been from quite a few influential Lutheran leaders.
The child, like all is saved on account of their own faith but not because of their faith. Christ's death and resurrection ultimately is what saves, not faith, not baptism. Faith and baptism are the modes in which the salvation is delivered unto us. Here is an analogy, imagine one is drowning and a man throws a life preserver to the drowning person. The person grabs hold and is brought to shore. Did the man save the person, did the life preserver save the person or did the grabbing hold save them? In a way, you could say any of those saved the drowning person. In this analogy, the man is Christ, the life preserver is baptism, and faith is what clings to it. The question then is, "can an infant have faith?" Luckily, scripture is clear. "Unless one becomes like a little child". Children--especially infants have nothing but faith. They have faith in their parents to feed them and change them and take care of them. It would be wrong to assume they couldn't also have faith in their heavenly Father to provide for them
As a mainliner I think it’s funny how conservatives will break off from the mainline over this or that issue and create a bunch of small denominations over smaller and smaller issues.
@@Sebman1113 Have you ever had the experience of being in a congregation that was healthy, growing, solid on the essentials of the Lutheran Confessions, then within a short period of time a new pastor comes in and you don't hear about the gospel anymore? The sermons are about LGBTQIA+ acceptance, the male pronouns disappear from the liturgy, no more "Lord" or "Father", Jesus and John were probably lovers. Climate change, racism, Palestine, and liberation theology. If you're okay with all that, fine, but there were some within the ELCA who didn't want that for themselves or their children.
@@mj6493 when I was a kid, the congregation I went to gone RIC, it didn't actually change the church service itself much believe it or not. The focus there remained the gospel because otherwise it would not be Lutheran. I don't currently belong to an RIC congregation and I personally hold pretty conservative Lutheran views. the congregation I currently belong too doesn't really come off as progressive at all while the one I grew up in seemed that way on its website but you wouldn't know going to a church service. There are very few ELCA congregations that actually started going absolutely insane and while I don't like sharing a denomination with them, that sort of thing can be sorted out at a Synod assembly. No Synod I belonged too had a congregation doing anything like the sparkle creed or all that sort of changing of Lutheran basics. I remember serving on a call committee at my old church and when we met the bishop, she said "I don't want any heretics in this synod" so she carefully vets pastor to be sure they are gospel centered. I can see where you are coming from and I sympathize with you, but it didn't exactly play out as the media sometimes portrays it, most ELCA congregations are still very much Lutheran.
@@mj6493 I grew up in a congregation that gone RIC (Im not there anymore obviously) and you wouldn't know that it was RIC if you sat in the typical church service on Sunday, the church was still solidly centered on the gospel. There are very few ELCA churches where the sermon is not about the lectionary scriptures of the day.
21:18 I hope that they got rid of the horrid translation that Lutherans copied from RCs in the post Vat II period: The Lord be with you - And with you too, baby or something like that.
🤣 unfortunately it seems like most high-church Protestant groups still use “and also with you” even after the RCC went back to “and with your spirit.” It’s quite frustrating to watch; “and also with you” just isn’t a faithful translation in any way
@@jatar6605 Thanks. That must be the quickest response that I have ever had. If I had a prize, I would send it to you. By the way, I agree. Thanks again.
@@stephanottawa7890 haha thank you I appreciate that. Btw, just curious, I see that you’re Orthodox. Are you OCA? I ask b/c I’ve been attending Liturgy lately and I often hear “and to your/thy spirit” alongside “and with your/thy spirit.” Do you know why that is?
@@jatar6605 I was originally in the OCA, but the church moved and at that point I decided go to ROCOR. I think that in the OCA there is a rivalry between the more "liberal" seminary called St. Vladimir's and the more conservative one attached to St. Tiikhon's Monastery. The former promotes a more modern type liturgical use and language whereas the later is closer to the ROCOR in language and attitude. It does lead to some confusion if a church is using publications from both presses. In the church to which I belonged, sometimes we seemed to be using a more modern translation of things from St. Vladimir's and sometimes we were using a more traditional one from St. Tikhon's. I could be wrong, but I think that it stems from these two traditions. The Bible readings also were sometimes a bit odd-sounding because they took the readings from the RSV which used the concept that when we are talking to God, we use "thou", "thy" etc, but when God is speaking to Moses or to us, He uses "you" and "your". This was then extended to the Theotokos and the saints so that some translations said "It is truly meet to bless you" and others said "It is truly meet to bless thee." It was a bit confusing. Now that I am in ROCOR, we use only the more traditional language for English or we just use Slavonic (which I am still learning). I hope this helps.
“Let there be light,” and there was light. “Lazarus come out,” and the dead man came out. “Pick up your mat and walk,” and he picked up his mat and walked. “This is my body,”… We believe Christ is truly present in Communion simply because God’s word creates that which it declares. Nevertheless, we do reject the idea of “Capernaitic” eating (see Article VII of the Formula of Concord), which is what many people think we mean when we confess the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For what it’s worth, I used to be Baptist and now serve as a Lutheran pastor. I’ve found that Lutheran confessions are less bizarre and more biblical than my Baptist friends tend to imagine. Cheers.
I'm a bit confused. My understanding is that you present a balanced representation of various denominations. My experience watching your videos is that the language you use is anything but balanced. Fir instance using yhe term "liberal theoligy" regarding the ELCA. The theology is the theology the theology drives them towards progressivw/liberal stances on human rights issue, but the theology, firmly grounded in the confessions of the Church is simply this "the forgiveness of sins through Jesys Christ." The Church accepts the three creeds, the Augsburg confessions, and Luther's Catechism as the symbols if the church. An argument can be made that thw NALC is more liberal as it has added confessions and documents that are not part of the Historic Church or even the Historic Evangelucal understanding of The Church. Its conversation of the smalcald article is an example of adding adiaphora to what it means to be Evangelical.
There is nothing not neutral about describing the theology of the denominations I am covering. Theological Liberalism and Theological conservativism are well defined categories and neither are perjorative. There are denominations that are more liberal, more moderate, and more conservative. The only way mentioning this would be viewed as biased is if the viewer imports negative meaning to these terms that is not present in their academic meaning. See www.britannica.com/topic/theological-liberalism and the short overview at www.thearda.com/us-religion/group-profiles/traditions?T=2 to learn more.
The channel author does have a video where he defines his use of the expression "liberal." I don't believe that he is using the word in a derogatory fashion. Edit: after commenting, I see the author has already responded.
All these Christian denominations, Yeshua, it's just unnecessarily excessive. Heck, who's to say Ready to Harvest can't make his own church. 🤣 I was part of a Protestant church and converted to Catholicism, I'm happy where I am now.
Pretenders? The NALC holds closer to the historic confessions of Lutheranism than the ELCA which it split off of. Likewise, the ANCA holds closer to the 39 articles than TEC
Because body and blood are things according to Christ's humanity. Before the incarnation He did not have them. The Father nor the Spirit have body or blood.
@@KingoftheJuice18 it a mystical way, you could argue it. Most scholarly Lutherans would say Christ is present locally but not physically in the communion meal. That is, it can be pointed to in space, but does not displace other things. Therefore we can say that it is both bread and body. An instance where you can see a similar mode of presence is the demon possessed in the New Testament. The demons are locally present in the body of the possessed, but it does not take up space or displace the person who is also in the exact same location. So is it cannibalistic? It depends on how you define cannibalism and its relation to the physical. When eating the Eucharist, is the bread simply crushed by the teeth, or is Christ also crushed? Lutherans would say only the bread is crushed but Christ is truly there with the bread.
I took my wife who had never been to church and went to two ELCAs and ended up in a terrific LCMS in San Diego, Grace Lutheran - it has the oldest pipe organ in California and is amazing. Very liturgical service. Very relaxing to know how we really try to honor God in his house. Thank you for you a great presentation. Always tactful and to point. A++
That implies that you feel you're somehow superior to Christians who take part in less liturgical services, and that those Christians aren't trying to honor God in His house, or that they don't think that they're also really trying to honor God in His house. Liturgy isn't a matter of honoring God. It's just a formula or rule set on how ministry and worship is to be conducted. It's a matter of formality in performance. Any denomination can potentially be liturgical.
Pip organs have nothing to do with Christ????
@@bufordhighwater9872 I think you are reading a lot more into this comment than the commenter actually said.
I've been waiting for this video for a while! Thanks Joshua!
I’m an NALC member. The National Association of Letter Carriers. A great Union!
Someone had to "post" it.
Do you bring Good News?
@@BirdDogey1 The OP really mailed it in!
We left the ELCA after many years of feeling like the ELCA left us. There was no NALC church near us, so we joined a local LCMS church. We are very happy here. Could you do a video about the differences between the LCMS and NALC? That would be great. Thanks.
The main differences will be the issues of pulpit/altar fellowship, and women’s ordination.
He has a video from a few years back that outlines the differences between different Lutheran denominations. It goes through the differences between NALC and LCMS there
Main difference is probably women's ordination, and LCMS is stricter on who they share communion with.
@@RevancedBurner It compares the ELCA, LCMC and LCMS, but not the NALC. Would love to see a comparison between the LCMC and NALC though
@@fjhforever I see, the beliefs of NALC and LCMC more or less line up with some differences in policy (governing structure) and liturgics (how the service is run)
Slight off topic, but I was just reaffirmed into the Lurthan church at my LCMS church today!
Epic! We had three confirmands in our LCMS church today!
May God bless your faith journey!
I’m an *Assemblies of God* Member but I 💚Love the LUTHERAN⛪️MiSSOURi Synod!!! You Are a very important part of The Body of Christ.
Thanks for all the kind works, everyone!
1 Corinthians 16:23-24 "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love to all of you in Christ Jesus. Amen"
Excellent! Glad to have you in the LCMS and also congrats to you. 🎉
I think a comparison between the ACNA, NALC, ECO, and Global Methodist Church could make for an interesting video.
I agree. Great thought!
Don't you mean the Genital Methodist Church?
ELCA on paper has the most memebers but not in practice. According to both LCMS and ELCA annual reports ELCA has a 483k weekly attendance while the LCMS has a 522k weekly attendance.
Theological liberalism only leads to attendance bleeding
@@JacobWagner-o4f this is a bit misleading. The LCMS claims 522k total, while the ELCA claims 522k in person and an additional 336k online.
Sources:
files.lcms.org/api/download/file/annual-report-2023
elcamediaresources.blob.core.windows.net/cdn/wp-content/uploads/Summary_of_Congregational_Statistics_as_of_12-31-2023.pdf
Glad to see you are doing some more deep dives into Lutheranism. Would love to see one on ELS in Mankato Minnesota. Would love to specifically see comparison/contrast with WELS since they are in full fellowship with one another. Appreciate your videos.
Thank you for this comprehensive look at NALC
I am a seminarian in this Church! Thanks for featuring us.
This was a very good presentation of the NALC. I have attended both the NALC and LCMS. There are some differences in the worship. One is in the Apostles Creed. One says the catholic church and one says the Christian church. I am comfortable in both.
I’ve seen both used in the LCMS. We used to say “a light unto the gentiles and your people….nations has replaced gentiles in the LSB. We also used to use Holy Ghost.
@@momdad5368the reason for this is because the LCMS is German in origin. Before the reformation, when the creed was translated into German, there was no equivalent word to "Catholic" so the church translated it as "Christian". When Lutherans came to America, they translated the creed from German to English keeping the substituted word. When American Lutherans say the creed, they are using an English translation of a German translation of a Latin translation of a Greek creed.
LCMS Lutherans do not reject the idea of catholicity
@@RevancedBurner That is very interesting, thank you.
@@momdad5368 you are welcome!
Yeah they both mean small C catholic as in universal not Roman Catholic
Randomly found your videos. I have an M.A in Biblical Studies. I have stopped being affiliated with a church because...I'm honestly sick of the milk feeding, without the ability to dig into meat. I know the church, any church, pushes the basics of Christianity to keep it as welcoming as possible to new believers...but when someone keeps telling me the wages of sin is death after 20 years without following up on the context of scripture to help me understand God's entire vision, I won't stick around. It's a shame that it took becoming a scholar to get the meat I was so desperate for.
Anyways, this is a long winded way to say I'm subscribing.
As for denominations, I live where Catholics marrying Lutheran's get you disowned by family. I was born and baptized Catholic, married a Lutheran and keepnthis part of my life quiet. I was also raised and baptized in so many denominations as a kid due to foster care that I really don't care about affiliation. I care about Divine Loyalty. And if a denomination cares about this, then it's fine.
While im not a fan of WO, its quite uplifting to hear they have some form of episcopate and also talk with the acna. My greatest hope is that the lutherans and Anglicans can join into one group
NALC and ACNA are very similar in my experience. We even share a seminary.
I don't understand how a church that opposes homosexual marriage and relations both on biblical grounds and as a doctrinal innovation, can simultaneously be comfortable with female ordination.
This position is typical of splinter groups who break away from mainline denominations over same sex marriage. Women have been ordained in mainline churches for a while so most of the churches who disapprove of that left those denominations a lot earlier.
Because female ordination has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Hope this helps
Yep
I Sure DO. Makes perfect sense, to me. The Apostle Paul was actually (in NO way) saying Women shouldn’t be allowed to Teach &/or Preach- “FOR THE REMAINDER OF TIME.” There’s actually Not a true implication of that specification. Original Greek doesn’t even hint at a *Permanent* basis for Any Doctrine like that. In other words, there’s ZERO Biblical basis if you read it, carefully.
@@GizkaStewit does help. You made it very clear- Female Ordination Has NOTHING to do with Homosexuality. Very simple & easy to agree with, matter of Fact.
As a conservative evangelical protestant, whenever I meet a Lutheran or a Methodist, I always want to find out which kind of Lutheran or Methodist he or she is. When I see a Lutheran or a Methodist church, I always look for fine print on its sign to tell me which kind it is. We have come to the point where the kinds tell us more than the traditional labels. Some would call this unfortunate, but it has become necessary (Romans 16 : 17).
I feel the same way about Pentecostals. I’ve been scarred by so much of their false doctrine that I avoid their churches altogether. I also avoid liberal churches.
@@MikeV8652 its probably better just ask individuals what they themselves believe. I know most roman catholics dont believe half what theyre supposed to.
And the same could be said of any denomination.
As someone on the conservative side within the ELCA, and knowing liberals within the LCMS, this approach of wanting to know "which kind of Lutheran" an individual person is is inaccurate and bothersome. It's like thinking you know someone's politics based on the state they live in.
@@NHNH14 Well, it might not be totally definitive, but it's better than nothing (in the political analogy, it's better than knowing only that one is a voter). In addition, asking the question might spark a deeper conversation on the variations.
@@MikeV8652 As long as you're asking with an interest in having that conversation, that's fair.
Great video as always. Would you consider doing a video on the Southern Methodist Church and Association of Independent Methodist Churches?
That NALC picture is from the church where one of my friends is the music director!
You should do a video on the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
I would love that.
What’s their main distinction?
@@IvanGonzalez-mp4xh They're a subset of Laestadians, a Pietistic Lutheran movement with origins in the Sápmi region of Scandinavia.
Thanks for the presentation. You might consider examining the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America
You are welcome! Here is my video on the CPC, and CPCA is mentioned also: th-cam.com/video/9TxVfFPAAH0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tpjImVjlOIbPGWac
I hope to join this denomination when I live close to an NALC church
LCMS?
My closest NALC church is 45 min away, completely worth the drive.
I got lucky, there’s one right next to my college that I plan on attending
Even though the NALC has fewer churches than the LCMS, WELS, or LCMC, there seem to be more NALC churches where I live (the Carolinas) than any of the previous three. A couple of my friends attend churches that left for the NALC though they still disagree with their home church's decision to leave the ELCA.
Thanks for this segment. I might have joined the NALC, but it did not exist when I left or was made to feel so unwelcome in the ELCIC that I had to leave. Eventually I found the Orthodox Church. It is the true Church that Jesus Christ established here on this earth and I thank God every day that I found it despite all the pain I suffered at the hands of the liberal Lutherans. They were not all mean, but as time past, the few good people died out and all is left is almost empty buildings where a few people meet to hear a false gospel or better said, no gospel at all. I feel particularly sorry for the older people who sacrificed so much to build these churches. They would be very sad to hear the garbage that is proclaimed in most of the ELCIC and ELCA churches today. If there are still a few good Christians there, leave before it is too late as it will only get worse. Come to Jesus in the Orthodox Church.
Very thorough description. Thank you. It seems that the NALC is closer to the Roman Catholic Church than the ELCA and I wonder how it distinguishes itself from Catholicism.
We disagree on the supremacy of the Pope
@@davidneil6206for now.
@@davidneil6206 for now.
Funny how my comments keep disappearing.
There are a lot of differences between confessional Lutherans and Catholics that may not be entirely visible to the naked eye. Those include, but are not limited to, a different understanding of salvation (imputed vs infused righteousness), the Eucharist (sacramental union vs transubstantiation), confession (“I forgive you” vs “I absolve you”, and who can do it), Holy Orders (potential for women’s ordination in some Lutheran groups + apostolic succession without a necessity of an episcopacy vs must have episcopacy for valid orders), and ecumenism (catholic vs Catholic)
@@davidneil6206
For now. But for how long?
Second time this comment has disappeared. Is that you?
I'm not sure what's different, but I had to play this one at .75 speed.
I occsly. have to do that too! I think it has something to do with all the initials such as LCMS, ELCA, NALC ... your brain is busy making the connections to the words they stand for. 😇
26:21 Sounds like the spiteful people in the ELCIC and ELCA made sure the the NALC would not be welcome in the WLF. They can be so uncharitable when it comes to welcoming other people in Christ despite their rhetoric.
yup. Thats about what happened.
Thanks for this
Why didn't they just join the Missoui Synod or the Wisconsin Synod or ELDONA?
@@brucealanwilson4121 ELDONA barely exists. It is a tiny group. Larger confessional groups not mentioned would be the CLC (church of the Lutheran confessions) or ELS (Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
I really wish Pew and the media can differentiate between Evangelical (both Missional/Revivalist/Evangelical-Proper and Confessional Evangelicals), Mainline, Confessional, Confessing Movement, and the fringe/other/nonTrinitarian churches although there is an overlap between most of these groups. For example the ACNA and the GMC are Confessing Movement with Evangelical minorities; the NALC and LCMC, are Confessing Movement with a very influential Missional/Revivalist Evangelical substrat, at least relative to most other Lutherans and identifies as Confessional Lutherans using the “in so far as” view as opposed to other Confessional Lutherans of the “is means is” persuasion); LCMS is Confessional (Confessional Lutheran of the “is means is” persuasion), etc., etc. I also wish Pew can remove the Jehovah’s Witnesses and LDS/Mormons from the Evangelical category because that categorization is grossly inaccurate.
Women's ordination is the main sticking point. There are always some subtlies on the Bible and Lutheran Confessions (particularly the importance of the others after the Augsburg Confession). Both have been in dialogue for a handful of years, and do find support and agreement on other issues.
@@RevancedBurner WELS? LCMS? They also don't admit that women are fully human.
@@brucealanwilson4121 I don't know what you're getting at. I was just pointing out that ELDONA is next level obscure and that there are other groups that have a longer history and are larger that many miss
How did you know the correct pronunciation for DuBois? Most use the French pronunciation. That is some thorough research!
I've been burned enough by city names (Looking at you Cairo, IL) that I normally look up how to pronounce names that could be pronounced in an unorthodox way. That's what I did here.
To be honest, that sounds similar to the position of Polish Lutheran Church. Although it slowly goes into the direction of Church of Sweden (they cooperate).
Provide a series of videos about Judaism please. THANKS!
As a non-Christian, I must say: that one church really knows how to evangelize....Comfort Dog!
How many splinter groups off the ELCA are there now?This is the third I heard about.
The LCMC and NALC are definitely the largest. The AALC is technically a continuation of the American Lutheran Church, being made up of churches who chose not to join the merger to form the ELCA so I'm not sure if they count because these churches were never part of the current ELCA. There are a number of other groups but they're all much smaller with far fewer members.
@georgebernard5783 My oldest brother is in an ELCA Church.Hecbecame Lutheran as a teen and took me to church with him in an LC -MS Church.I converted to Orthodoxy in 1996.I would never join an ELCA Church because their theology is becoming apostate.They're the ones who wrote that nauseating Sparkle Creed.
Quite a few... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lutheran_denominations
@jec1ny Thank you.I was in an LC-MS Church until becoming Orthodox in 1996.
@@David-yw2lv I've been Orthodox since 2006.
Our local NCLA church in Boerne, TX withdrew from the ELCA. I'm LCMS and we do talk of sin and hell.
In other words, you have chosen to make gay sex the foundation of your faith.
I get very suspicious of churches that focus on fear-based messaging.
That's good! After all, Jesus spoke of sin OFTEN, more often than He spoke of Heaven!! That broke my heart when he spoke what the NCLA say in their statement of faith, how they don't speak of sin or hell because it's too depressing. I have Loved Ones in the ELCA and have visited their church with them many times over the last 45 years. NOT 1 TIME have they ever spoken of sin! ... not even once!! They think they are automatically going to heaven because they "belong to God" and were baptized as a baby.... all while they get drunk several nites a week, and gamble, and cheat, and swear like there's no end of life .... or Judgement of God! These Pastors/Elders have a LOT to answer for one day! 😢📖
@@bonniemoerdyk9809 Get your faith out of your pants, and stop behaving like those who Christ condemned in Matthew 23:13.
I'm sad that the NALC included the very same weasel words regarding the status of the Confessions other than the Augustana that the ELCA holds. I'm also sad that it includes congregations that deny the teachings of the Scriptures and the Confessions regarding baptism.
Just one correction;
if necessary to save "the mother's life"
the procedure is NOT an abortion.❤
Shall we grant citizenship to the unborn? The mother is the soil...❤❤❤❤❤❤
I was raised LCA, then ELCA. I left in 1994. What these groups, even in other mainline breakoffs, typically do is to try a rollback the Liberal and Neo-orthodox theology to some earlier American decade before things "went crazy".
The truth is, however, that they still leave the core problems in their foundation. Women's ordination is only one problem, but it's a massive one. These denominations will eventually evolve into the very thing they left. It's unavoidable because the theological foundation is off.
Thanks for the video.
16:08 What are these people trying to say? Are they saying that women who have raped, can seek an abortion? Please be honest and clear.
I think it is more clear If you start at 15:49. I think it is saying that people who engage in premarital sex should confess their sins but also making it clear that victims of SA are not guilty of that sin themselves.
I agree the wording could use some editing
"We cannot stop you from getting an abortion, but we would strongly recommend that you do not do so."
So have the Lutherans split off again? Missouri Synod, American Lutheran and now this? How many denominations should there be? What are Protestants up to now 30,000 or 40,000? Whenever there is a disagreement arises, boom, another denomination of protestants. What are you protesting anyway?
Long live the Luther Lager League!
I’m an ELCA member. Proud
Same. Honestly, I don't think a split was necessary being a large portion of ELCA churches are not much different from the NALC. Some are but it probably is not much different from my church every Sunday.
The NALC has an internal contradiction. At 2:36 it claims to follow "the treatise", in context presumably Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, while at 23:34 honoring him.
You’re correct, that is Presumptuous. You know, the thing you’re basing your whole argument on..?
(I’m actually AG!) but I honor the Pope, too. But Never have & Never WiLL “Submit” to him under Any Circumstance.
You can honour Benedict for his contributions to the Church, without submitting to his supposed authority.
@@davidneil6206 Benedict hasn’t been pope for years now.
@@Justanotherconsumer Benedict was the one mentioned in the video.
20:05 i want to go to that church
Sounds like a watered down LCMS or mostly sound ELCA… still giving into several social trends. I’ll stick with AALC and LCMS.
I was formerly a member in the LCMS, looked around but couldn’t find a NALC church in my area so now I am ACNA.
I enjoy the ELCA
I guess it's better than Anglican, but ultimately both are Protestant.
@@PhilipMarcYTI enjoy both. God bless you though. Have a good day.
I do too as an active member.
The NACL is the salt of the earth!
NaCl
A coalition of those who are totally removed from the faith once delivered to the saved
conservative Lutherans V.S. liberal Lutherans
So much for "Scripture Alone".
Pause at 8:39. EVERYONE makes the Bible agree with THIER ideas.
I wonder what Luther would think of these liberal churches preaching in his name…
Just like A Much of free range chickens...what's to say..hard to gather eggs..the Big CHURCH holding the ReView along with the Paper and ink.free ranging,multi voices is like shouting to prove a point..?.
Baptism without faith doesn't save, but an infant can be baptized and be saved because of the faith of his parents? While I agree with most of Lutheranism, this is one area that I have done my best to wrap my head around unsuccessfully. It seems to me most Lutheran pastors I've seen try to explain it falter in their confidence of it or at least ability to explain it. Such verses as "and they and their households were baptized" seems to me a weak argument for an entire doctrinal stance. Perhaps a Lutheran out there can better help me understand. I'm not trying to be belligerently ignorant, I would love to understand the position better than what I've heard so far which has been from quite a few influential Lutheran leaders.
The child, like all is saved on account of their own faith but not because of their faith.
Christ's death and resurrection ultimately is what saves, not faith, not baptism.
Faith and baptism are the modes in which the salvation is delivered unto us.
Here is an analogy, imagine one is drowning and a man throws a life preserver to the drowning person. The person grabs hold and is brought to shore.
Did the man save the person, did the life preserver save the person or did the grabbing hold save them?
In a way, you could say any of those saved the drowning person.
In this analogy, the man is Christ, the life preserver is baptism, and faith is what clings to it.
The question then is, "can an infant have faith?"
Luckily, scripture is clear. "Unless one becomes like a little child". Children--especially infants have nothing but faith. They have faith in their parents to feed them and change them and take care of them. It would be wrong to assume they couldn't also have faith in their heavenly Father to provide for them
Belief in the gospel is prerequisite to baptism. @@RevancedBurner
@astutik8909 and you think infants can't believe?
@RevancedBurner
Is that what happens at a baby/ infant baptism?
Were they asked what they believe?
John leapt for joy in his mother's womb.
1st!
cool beans
As a mainliner I think it’s funny how conservatives will break off from the mainline over this or that issue and create a bunch of small denominations over smaller and smaller issues.
yeah, my home ELCA church really is not that different from an NALC church, it was a largely pointless split in my opinion.
Everyone needs to draw a line somewhere. Gravity will take its toll if you go with the flow.
@@Sebman1113 Have you ever had the experience of being in a congregation that was healthy, growing, solid on the essentials of the Lutheran Confessions, then within a short period of time a new pastor comes in and you don't hear about the gospel anymore? The sermons are about LGBTQIA+ acceptance, the male pronouns disappear from the liturgy, no more "Lord" or "Father", Jesus and John were probably lovers. Climate change, racism, Palestine, and liberation theology. If you're okay with all that, fine, but there were some within the ELCA who didn't want that for themselves or their children.
@@mj6493 when I was a kid, the congregation I went to gone RIC, it didn't actually change the church service itself much believe it or not. The focus there remained the gospel because otherwise it would not be Lutheran. I don't currently belong to an RIC congregation and I personally hold pretty conservative Lutheran views. the congregation I currently belong too doesn't really come off as progressive at all while the one I grew up in seemed that way on its website but you wouldn't know going to a church service. There are very few ELCA congregations that actually started going absolutely insane and while I don't like sharing a denomination with them, that sort of thing can be sorted out at a Synod assembly. No Synod I belonged too had a congregation doing anything like the sparkle creed or all that sort of changing of Lutheran basics. I remember serving on a call committee at my old church and when we met the bishop, she said "I don't want any heretics in this synod" so she carefully vets pastor to be sure they are gospel centered. I can see where you are coming from and I sympathize with you, but it didn't exactly play out as the media sometimes portrays it, most ELCA congregations are still very much Lutheran.
@@mj6493 I grew up in a congregation that gone RIC (Im not there anymore obviously) and you wouldn't know that it was RIC if you sat in the typical church service on Sunday, the church was still solidly centered on the gospel. There are very few ELCA churches where the sermon is not about the lectionary scriptures of the day.
ELCA-lite
21:18 I hope that they got rid of the horrid translation that Lutherans copied from RCs in the post Vat II period: The Lord be with you - And with you too, baby or something like that.
🤣 unfortunately it seems like most high-church Protestant groups still use “and also with you” even after the RCC went back to “and with your spirit.” It’s quite frustrating to watch; “and also with you” just isn’t a faithful translation in any way
@@jatar6605 Thanks. That must be the quickest response that I have ever had. If I had a prize, I would send it to you. By the way, I agree. Thanks again.
@@stephanottawa7890 haha thank you I appreciate that. Btw, just curious, I see that you’re Orthodox. Are you OCA? I ask b/c I’ve been attending Liturgy lately and I often hear “and to your/thy spirit” alongside “and with your/thy spirit.” Do you know why that is?
@@jatar6605 I was originally in the OCA, but the church moved and at that point I decided go to ROCOR. I think that in the OCA there is a rivalry between the more "liberal" seminary called St. Vladimir's and the more conservative one attached to St. Tiikhon's Monastery. The former promotes a more modern type liturgical use and language whereas the later is closer to the ROCOR in language and attitude. It does lead to some confusion if a church is using publications from both presses. In the church to which I belonged, sometimes we seemed to be using a more modern translation of things from St. Vladimir's and sometimes we were using a more traditional one from St. Tikhon's. I could be wrong, but I think that it stems from these two traditions. The Bible readings also were sometimes a bit odd-sounding because they took the readings from the RSV which used the concept that when we are talking to God, we use "thou", "thy" etc, but when God is speaking to Moses or to us, He uses "you" and "your". This was then extended to the Theotokos and the saints so that some translations said "It is truly meet to bless you" and others said "It is truly meet to bless thee." It was a bit confusing. Now that I am in ROCOR, we use only the more traditional language for English or we just use Slavonic (which I am still learning). I hope this helps.
The "with your spirit" though can sound like the spirit is a separate thing from yourself.
I don't understand how people think that Jesus was literal when he said this is my body and my blood with communion.
“Let there be light,” and there was light. “Lazarus come out,” and the dead man came out. “Pick up your mat and walk,” and he picked up his mat and walked. “This is my body,”…
We believe Christ is truly present in Communion simply because God’s word creates that which it declares. Nevertheless, we do reject the idea of “Capernaitic” eating (see Article VII of the Formula of Concord), which is what many people think we mean when we confess the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For what it’s worth, I used to be Baptist and now serve as a Lutheran pastor. I’ve found that Lutheran confessions are less bizarre and more biblical than my Baptist friends tend to imagine. Cheers.
This is so unserious.
I'm a bit confused. My understanding is that you present a balanced representation of various denominations. My experience watching your videos is that the language you use is anything but balanced. Fir instance using yhe term "liberal theoligy" regarding the ELCA. The theology is the theology the theology drives them towards progressivw/liberal stances on human rights issue, but the theology, firmly grounded in the confessions of the Church is simply this "the forgiveness of sins through Jesys Christ."
The Church accepts the three creeds, the Augsburg confessions, and Luther's Catechism as the symbols if the church.
An argument can be made that thw NALC is more liberal as it has added confessions and documents that are not part of the Historic Church or even the Historic Evangelucal understanding of The Church. Its conversation of the smalcald article is an example of adding adiaphora to what it means to be Evangelical.
There is nothing not neutral about describing the theology of the denominations I am covering. Theological Liberalism and Theological conservativism are well defined categories and neither are perjorative. There are denominations that are more liberal, more moderate, and more conservative. The only way mentioning this would be viewed as biased is if the viewer imports negative meaning to these terms that is not present in their academic meaning. See www.britannica.com/topic/theological-liberalism and
the short overview at www.thearda.com/us-religion/group-profiles/traditions?T=2 to learn more.
The channel author does have a video where he defines his use of the expression "liberal." I don't believe that he is using the word in a derogatory fashion.
Edit: after commenting, I see the author has already responded.
@@ReadyToHarvest Exactly. Theological Liberalism isn't a dig, its a textbook definition.
He describes denominations using primary sources from the denomination he's describing.
All these Christian denominations, Yeshua, it's just unnecessarily excessive. Heck, who's to say Ready to Harvest can't make his own church. 🤣
I was part of a Protestant church and converted to Catholicism, I'm happy where I am now.
NALC is the premise that you can slide all the way to female ordination without continuing down the garbage chute.
Lol poor things had to band together with the ACNA two pretenders one to the Lutheran faith the other to the Anglican faith.
Pretenders? The NALC holds closer to the historic confessions of Lutheranism than the ELCA which it split off of. Likewise, the ANCA holds closer to the 39 articles than TEC
ACNA seems to be the more globally recognized Anglican group.
Why would anyone want "the humanity" of Jesus to be present in the communion meal? Why isn't that kind of cannibalistic?
Because body and blood are things according to Christ's humanity. Before the incarnation He did not have them. The Father nor the Spirit have body or blood.
@@RevancedBurner Ok, thank you, but doesn't that still mean you are eating a human being?
@@KingoftheJuice18 it a mystical way, you could argue it.
Most scholarly Lutherans would say Christ is present locally but not physically in the communion meal. That is, it can be pointed to in space, but does not displace other things. Therefore we can say that it is both bread and body.
An instance where you can see a similar mode of presence is the demon possessed in the New Testament. The demons are locally present in the body of the possessed, but it does not take up space or displace the person who is also in the exact same location.
So is it cannibalistic? It depends on how you define cannibalism and its relation to the physical. When eating the Eucharist, is the bread simply crushed by the teeth, or is Christ also crushed? Lutherans would say only the bread is crushed but Christ is truly there with the bread.
This is why pagans accused early Christians of cannibalism, lol.
The hypostatic union of Christ. You can't have the divine w/o the human.
It’s all about the homophobia