This guy flew Perfectly. HES A HERO for avoiding the busy city. Easy to criticize on YOOTUBE like hoovy when he's never flew a plane in his life. Guys a JOKE
A wise pilot once told me, when you are in an emergency, do not think about saving the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company now. It’s all about saving your life. Could you do an analysis of the guy that did a go around and slammed in to the hangar? I remember the video went viral, but never heard anything after that.
Not a pilot but grew up in aviation with a bush strip at home. Slipping was the only way in. We had a bumpy 1,200 foot strip with 300 foot displaced threshold due to trees. We had 900 feet no matter which direction you landed or took off. We had several C172's and a 7AC. It never occurred how good of a pilot my dad was until watching these videos. He was a highly skilled bush pilot and mechanic. I was not allowed on the controls when landing at home but performed many take-offs with my dad as on reserve. I would land at the local GA strip and trade seats.
I have a Sting Sport. Flaps and a slip will get it slowed down and will burn altitude just fine. Base on the pilot's statements as related by Hoover, the guy was either totally frazzled by the situation or didn't seem to know about slips for glidepath control. Not using flaps suggests he did not have a pre-landing checklist memorized and probably was not religiously using checklists. Pre-landing checklist in the Sting Sport is pretty short since it only has one fuel tank, fixed gear, no carb heat, auto mixture, and a fixed pitch prop. To configure the Sting for landing the list is speed-flaps-trim. I see a lot of student pilots these days that are at a total loss when I ask them to use their checklists. Maybe a case of poor quality flight training.
I own a similar "slick little light sport" and trust me, if you come in even a few knots hot, and then mismanage your elevator inputs by pulling back even a tiny bit too much in an effort to slow the aircraft down it will either float or do what seems like "bouncing off of ground-effect". You can balloon back up and end up with an extreme deck angle in an attempt to slow the aircraft as the plane badly wants to use that excess energy to go back up in the air. Under normal circumstances things can get out of hand in these light slick airplanes quickly in a non-stable landing configuration (High, fast, long, no flaps). The drill for such an event under normal circumstances is always a go-around. His brain was certainly yelling "GO-AROUND!". Plus, I think he understandably had the illusion of higher ground speed on touchdown because he was fixated on the runway directly in front of his propellor, and not far down the runway as one normally is. His "reptilian brain" yelled "go-around" which was the wrong decision to make. All in all, despite that poor decision he managed to save himself, the aircraft, and those on the ground. He is super lucky he didn't stall the inside wing several times (42 knots, 30-degree bank, no flaps) and go face first into the ground. Great outcome. Sadly, all he needed to do was proper maintenance of the reliable Rotax 912 or extend the downwind past the threshold for a few seconds and all this could have been avoided.
My students have this problem, I am so used to the aircraft now I can yank all the airspeed out of it if I need to without floating it, but yeah if your only flying recreationally and not several hours a day. Its very easy to mess these landings up.
Agreed. I fly a Tecnam P92 with the same Rotax. That thing just wants to fly. At 70 knots it will take a while to bleed speed on flare. If he had maintained proper glide speed, make a better judgment on height and thus extending downwind a bit more, he and the plane would have been fine. Still, he walked out, so kudos to him.
Great reply. I have flown this plane as well as the CTSW. Both take MUCH more concentration and energy management to land well compared to the usual cessna/piper planes. They just don't slow down well, and when they do, they drop hard and fast.
Good analysis, Hoover. Very surprising that the shop that did the condition inspection didn't know about the need to check the carburetor floats. That's a very well-known maintenance item. I'd also like to know how the crud got into the float bowls - probably a good idea to look at the fuel filter(s). I would not want to be the owner of the shop that did that inspection.
Light Sport maintenance requires a special sign off after training - An FBO that does maintenance on certified aircraft normally can't turn wrenches on light sport machines. . . Thems da rules ya hear
@@UncleKennysPlace List or not, sorry to tell you... ANYBODY who has ever owned a carburetor with floats is a RAGING PAIN IN THE ASS about checking and cleaning that bowl regularly and making DAMN SURE the floats are still floating. When a float sinks, the needle valve drops and raw-gas just free-flows through the bowl and into the intake... drowns the engine and CAN start an engine fire on the spot. Usually, it just "floods" by going to rich and killing it out... literally drowning in fuel. Most of us with carburetors (including the one on my motorcycle) know to clean them out regularly and make sure to keep GOOD filters in the fuel lines in GOOD or excellent condition. Most of us greatly appreciate the rising availability of "clear-view" in-line filters that we can add "after market" so a casual look into a clear container tells you ALL you really need to know about "crud" generally floating in your fuel. If it's ever "dirty" find someone who knows about these things and bitch about it. You'll either get it fixed or answer enough questions to take care of it on your own. ;o)
Thanks for the thorough analysis. Last year I had an incident with loss of power in my (exceptionally small, rather fast) aircraft over pretty unsuitable terrain. I was lucky enough to nurse the plane to a small glider field and drop it in there with hardly any thrust left. I even managed to get it on video and put it up on youtube for the world to see. Now, the TL Sting is a very popular aircraft here as well, there's one in the same hangar as my own plane and I do know it quite well: The TL Sting is by no means an unforgiving beast, it's rather docile. Only by stacking all those little errors on top of each other did this pilot manage to turn the situation into a wreck. Lesson to be learned: Do keep up with the maintenance, don't stack risks. Build good routine in accordance with best practice and train for engine emergencies. Stay safe, and I wish you all have a peaceful sky!
It's this videos that made me decide to do a refresher on power off 180s with my CFI. Man, I'm glad I did as the first one wasn't the best. At least now I feel more confident in case I do get in this situation vs. just practicing EPs at altitude. Thanks Hoover for the quality of your reviews. Certainly keeps things top of mind and also a good analysis of what *not* to do as much as what *to* do in these situations.
I tell all of my students - once the motor fails, the airplane loses the right to be an airplane. It is now a capsule for our survival. Get it down and stopped, don’t try to save the plane.
Why would rotax use a chemically reactive material in the float? That's insane - to change mass with different fuel! I heard those can swell shut if you use ethanol gas.
Older equipment that was designed before ethanol was readily available. I have had a few fairly big boats. The original onboard fuel tanks were made with a resin that alcohol would react with. Lots of gummed up fuel filters, and carbs. In the boating industry lots of claims were made for damaged fuel tanks and the issues they caused, mostly with trailable boats. The owners would fuel their boats at a land based gas station rather than paying for marine fuel. So, they put fuel in their boats that readily absorbed water and was also a solvent. There's a reason why marine and aviation fuel is made. I've burned my share of both marine fuel and 100LL and would never put anything but marine fuel in a floater, or aviation fuel in a flyer.
Most people think car gas ( pump gas) is mogas ! It’s not !! 😮 has less then 1% alcohol which binds water , no benzene which gums up the fuel system and it’s only transported in a special fuel truck !! Not like pump/ car gas , today 87 tomorrow 92 and another day diesel( 7 RON) . That’s why Lycoming allow MOGAS in many engines ( low compression) but prohibited Pumpgas !
This has nothing to do with hindsight, revoke his license this guy has no business flying. What's he going to do next, a loop de loop so he can land on the same runway he took off on?
The whole purpose of a debrief is to analyze performance to improve. It uses 20/20 hindsight to make better pilots for the future. The stakes for failure are just too high.
I’m finding this channel to be very valuable in understanding why incidents happen. Should be required watching for any pilot. Full disclosure, I’m not a pilot, but am fascinated by the process, and have a lot of respect for the men and women who do this safely.
There’s a golf course straight ahead. On almost every training flight after my first pfl at some time the instructor would close the throttle, pull carb heat and say, engine failure. It certainly kept me sharp.
I believe that golf course is about 1.3 miles off the departure end of Runway 28. If he had a complete engine failure then that might have been his best option rather than attempting an "impossible turn". However, he had already started turning right and that makes the airport a much more viable option. Regardless, it's always a great idea to have an understanding of where you might land and what you're going to do if you lose an engine on takeoff at any airfield.
I think the tailwind component was the most critical factor. Usually power off landings are practiced on the same runway on which a pilot is practicing power-on landings into the wind. Managing an approach to a runway with a tailwind is a challenge and if you have never done any downwind approaches or landings with your cfi, likely will result in speed being way high at the flare, which appears to be what happened here.
@@Jimmer-Space88 He was diving on final probably because he didn't control the altitude and speed properly while turning and before getting aligned with the runway, and that was probably because of the wind component pushing the airplane toward the runway. It's a different world - training and practice is needed. Once the descent angle gets too steep (which can happen way before rolling out on final), speed cannot be controlled even with full flaps and a full rudder slip.
I love your channel. I have been an aviation enthusiast for many years. There are many reasons I have not been able to get a GA license, and one of them is my fear that I would end up here at your channel. Thanks for everything you do. I will settle for my Part 107 UAV
Thanks for watching! Congrats on getting your Part 107...way too many people trying to fly drones for commercial use without a license and I appreciate you taking the steps to get the license even if you don't use it for commercial purposes!
I have a Sting. These things can land in less than 300ft, maybe 200ft on a good day.. these aircraft will also easily land on grass. Mind blowing decision making here..
Honestly, I'm not surprised. I was in the middle of my PPL training when I got a job in Hollywood, FL. I passed that airport twice a day every day - so one day I decided to stop in to see about maybe just finishing my PPL there. The attitudes and environment I encountered there made me turn around and walk back out and just wait until I got back home. I'm not saying EVERYONE there is like that, but it did leave a sour taste in my mouth for the aviators flying out of there.
Interesting, I was working on my A&P and walked around PERRY AIRPORT talking to anyone outside, and got the same reaction. People were very unfriendly and put me off. Only one shop that flew banners were very VERY nice and encouraging Must be one of those CLICKY airports where strangers ARE NOT WELCOME I encountered the same lousy attitude at an EAA group in Clearwater, very arrogant and ignorant people. They even attacked the treasurer of a Tampa EAA group who was visiting, thinking she was over there trying to steal members ! Talk about a bunch of psychopaths. Unlike a porcupine with the pricks on the outside, this CLUB had the pricks on the inside ! LIFE IS TOO SHORT ! A CFI buddy of mine told me that a lot of EAA groups are like that While the EAA group at Tampa Exec were the most friendly people I ever met.
Pilots are definitely a funny breed. I have a buddy who has been flying for 20 years. He hates having to fly far out past coastlines for fear of crashing. At this point you're probably thinking, "Well yeah no pilot wants to ditch in deep water", but no, that's not the issue. What is the issue? He's afraid he'll be eaten by sharks. No joke.
As I mentioned in the video, neither the NTSB nor the pilot stated what the engine was doing from the moment the pilot said it "shuddered" to the time he crashed. The pilot did state that he increased the throttle when he tried to takeoff again, which there would be no reason to do if the engine wasn't producing power.
@@pilot-debrief th-cam.com/video/V84a3TwsytY/w-d-xo.html You said prop spinning = at least partial power. That isn't true. Whether or not this guy's engine was producing power is irrelevant to my comment. I do enjoy your content, you are no doubt saving lives with you videos/analysis. Keep up the good work!
@@Public_land_trail_cams There is no answer to that as it varies by airplane, engine, propellor and probably density altitude. However, most small airplanes will have a hard time keeping the prop spinning below 60-70 knots.
I think he had a great fixation on trying to stay alive and avoid crashing into buildings but there was definitely some things he could have done differently to have a better outcome and that's the whole point of the pilot debrief.
There was no real reason he should have been so concerned about hitting a building. He had enough altitude to avoid them. He may have been trying to justify his actions, but this is not a good explanation. Loss of power is something we should all train for, your debriefs are very helpful!@@pilot-debrief
You bet! Ya...some planes can use automotive fuel so you definitely have to pay attention and plan ahead to make sure the airports you fly into have the services you need.
The Rotax 912 was originally designed to run on automotive fuel. If you are running leaded gas, the oil change time is cut in half and it's hard on the valves and gearbox. 🙁
Yeah, it's fuel available at gas stations but it's ethanol-free which is what you use in boats and all small engines. It's called MOGAS. I don't know why he didn't he abort the take off and bleed off the excess speed before Landing.
@@pilot-debrief Not sure why you'd put ethanol based fuel in any plane. Ethanol is hydroscopic, readily absorbs water, and the fuel is subjected to phase separation. You're just asking for trouble. Had a ROTAX engine in my jet ski. I'd buy ethanol free gasoline from a local gas station to put in it. It costs more, but in the long term costs far less than damaging your fuel system or engine. I've burned my share of 100LL, marine fuel, and alcohol free fuel. I can't understand why someone can buy a boat or a plane, and then start pinching pennies that WILL either cost them many dollars in the future, or your life. Oh, and who attempts a go around with a bad engine? Just plain stupid!
Great job, Hoover! I'm not a pilot but grew up with my Dad flying small aircraft and I pride myself on bing an analytical thinker. I really love your analysis on this channel and your depth of knowledge is top-notch. Keep up the great work!
He needed to train more with an instructor and proper maintenance would have prevented this accident. The pilot clearly lacked good judgment probably from inadequate training. He was very rusty. Flying 4 hours a month is more dangerous for these inexperienced novice pilots than to an experienced and well seasoned pilots.
The Sting isn’t approved for slips with full flaps. However, full flaps are very effective. He didn’t use them, which explains why he was still going so fast as he reached the end of the runway. He appears to have tried to force the plane down, which won’t work in the Sting: it will inevitably start to bounce because the nose gear is quite long. Once it was bouncing, he would have been trained that the only fix was a go-around. I’m impressed that the plane tried so hard to do what he wanted, without much power.
@@pilot-debrief In theory, you would - and that would certainly have been the safest thing to try in this case, especially as partial power was available, so he could have given it a burst of power to stabilize, then back to idle and let it settle. In practice, many pilots find that neutralizing the controls and stopping bounces is really hard to do: experience shows that bounces tend to get worse rather than better. So, many instructors teach the automatic go-around if the plane bounces more than once.
THANK YOU FOR A GREAT DEBRIEF...I AM GOING TO START MY PRIVATE PILOT TRAINING SOON..THESE VIDEOS ARE SO GREAT FOR LEARNING..YOUR FORMAT IS AWESOME AND SIMPLE TO RETAIN..IF I EVER NEED THE ADVICE IN AN EMERGENCY AND I CANNOT THINK..! THIS IS A GREAT LEARNING CHANNEL!!
Some people should Not----> Drive cars, own guns, use power tools, be in public office, own animals, have children, vote, be cops, or fly planes. Did I miss anything?. The End.
@@NCLUSA the one thing that t-rump is good at is selling some fake version of Jesus to the gullible. Even if he just managed to keep his pecker from pecking away at random - among other random things like Jan 6, he would have had way more money to “fight” whatever he is fighting for. Oh & one more thing: while he had always excelled in suing everyone & their mother who happened to have a claim on his “fortunes” such as workmen working on his “projects” in order to just get paid as per contract, the fake Jesus-baited gullible had elevated him to whole new heights: the ability to select the “other” side of the Justice-system: Judges! This guy will subvert anything he wants to including Democrazy itself if given half & chance & when challenged will claim (fake) Jesus made him do it! Be warned, very warned!
Fly Air Force! (I'm an AF vet). Your incident breakdowns are the best I've seen sir. No extraneous crap, just the facts. These other guys on this site doing this are too long winded.
Far too few pilots know how to use an aggressive slip to shed speed and altitude. Especially with full flaps it's amazing how fast you can descend in most planes with hard slip. Having that tool in your toolbox makes things like this much more survivable. And unlike flaps, the drag from a slip can be applied and removed as fast as you can move your feet and hands.
Low time sport pilot here. Whenever I go flying, I have a plan of spending atleast half the trip on practicing. That could be touch and goes or flight manouvres that teaches me better energy management. Relaxing, sightseeing is fine, but I am so worried about becoming complacent and suddenly find myself in a situation where I SHOULD have a "toolbox" of things I can do, for instance to slow down if I am coming in hot but can't go around, or I am trapped in terrain and need to turn around but be confident I can stay coordinated. These days I am doing all sorts of variations of lazy eights, and I have identified some things I could use the help of an instructor with. In my training, I remember how weird it felt to practice using nose high attitude to increase my rate of descent when I was high. There is a slight balloon to begin with, but then you begin to come down. When I read "Stick and Rudder" it all makes sense. Wolfgang goes as far as calling the elevators "flippers", to avoid the misconseption that the elevators (always) elevate... I have nothing but for sympathy for this guy. It is only human to not notice when we start slipping and normalizing deviant behaviour... I am surprised by how much focus and energy I need to spend just to keep myself in check!
The fuel and maintenance issues were a bad combo, but obviously, so was trying to turn a probable safe landing into a probable dangerous touch-and-go. Great analysis, as usual!!!
I should have mentioned it in the video, but it sounds like his engine that you hear when he's on short final. There is audio from another aircraft flying overhead later in the video though. Regardless of whether you can hear it, I'd argue it had to be producing some power because if the engine was dead then there's definitely no reason to try and takeoff again and he talked about how when he tried to takeoff he increased the throttle (which there would be no reason to do if the engine was dead).
I don't think a Rotax 912 will windmill if it's not making RPMS. The airplane would break apart before those things windmill. It takes one heck of a tug to burp 'em every morning.
The standard response to an aircraft that is bouncing is to get it back into the air. You can say more experience would have benefited him, but no amount of experience or lack of experience would have prevented the engine failure. Likewise, the type of failure he experienced, loose debris clogging the gravity-fed fuel system, could have been momentarily solved with some hard, negative g bangs, causing him to believe the engine was kicking back in. Pilot's priority was not to hit buildings that might contain people, which is a big plus.
If you are bouncing as you go down the runway and you want to land, the standard response is to neutralize the controls and let the plane settle and fly it down to the runway. Bouncing multiple times is often the result of trying to chase the controls, creating a PIO, which can make things a lot worse. Also, if you know the engine isn't working, the standard response should not be to try to takeoff when you are already down on the ground. He did a great job avoiding crashing into buildings, but he also had an opportunity to keep it on the ground with minimal to possibly no damage to the aircraft and this is the whole point of a pilot debrief...to identify what could have been done better.
Thanks Hoover for your above reply. The accident pilot was clearly not aviating. As you pointed out, he had partial power, was climbing and simply could have flown a standard pattern. If he had done that he would have been within gliding distance of the airport at all times in case there had been a complete engine failure. Instead with an un-stable approach he was too fast and too high. The fact he bounced on landing was to be expected as a result of his poor approach. A bounce at that point was inconsequential. He was on the ground with plenty of runway and runoff, just keep it there. These videos and your debriefs are very helpful. As a pilot I can imagine getting into many of these situations. Having you break them down so clearly allows me to keep these things in mind each time I go up. You also allow us to see how professional military pilots are. This accident pilot is already probably feeling pretty bad, but I wonder what nickname he would get if he were in the military. @@pilot-debrief
@@thedahlins Clearly any pilot in the military would earn a horrific nickname, but few pilots in the military venture into the sky alone, without close support, and with as few hours of training, experience, and testing as the accident pilot. Heck if a military pilot did something like that, they'd never let him (or her) back in the simulator.
Nice reply crimony! It's nothing to laugh about and as you say, military pilots have close support! Those of us in GA are pretty much on our own in terms of how much we choose to be debriefed. It's good to have these conversations!
Pilots primary failing was not (being able or just forgot) doing a hard slip to get down on the runway, leading to pushing down and the resultant bounces. Trying to go around again was obviously a huge mistake. As a point of interest, the Sting is odd in having split flaps as opposed to any form of 'high lift' flap, so it's more of a speed brake. As for positioning around his modified circuit, I've had numerous students, that when knowing they're going to get an EFTO, have a bad habit of getting back to the strip quickly, but then finding themselves at 200 feet above the centre of the runway and nowhere to go but away from it. I usually let them do this once, to get them to concentrate on their positioning when practicing emerges procedures. Then there's the maintenance fault in the first place... As long as we all learn from this.
There's something to be said about the typical private training. A go-around is presented as an all-encompassing max safety action in case of a landing going wrong. Of course, it is not. If there's doubt that the aircraft will be able to complete another pattern, it is of course much better to hit the bottom of the trees at 20 knots than hit the top of the same very trees at 60 knots.
Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here. As another old goes learn from others mistakes you don't have time to make them all yourself. Glad he was OK to tell this story it could've been much worse.
Another quick correction.. the propeller will continue to spin (at normal flying speeds like best glide speed) even at 0 power. The only exception would be if there was damage done internally causing the prop to slam to a stop or the aircraft got way slow at some point.
Well, that plane features a Rotax 912S which has high compression and a gearbox, they usually stop windmilling when the engine shuts completely off due to missing spark or fuel. Personal experience here. With this plane hanging in there at minimum speeds the engine had to still deliver _some_ kind of power, otherwise he'd have crashed a lot sooner.
I am not a pilot, so please take that into consideration when you read this. But despite the technical mistakes this pilot made, the root cause of this problem is the engine manufacturer's decision to allow the use of both avgas and mogas in a certain ratio. Also their decision to use float material that degrades if too much of one type of fuel is used. It also occurs to me that given the cost of airplanes, even ultralights, the engines would have fuel injection not carburetors.
Hoover, here's something that's always made me wonder, why do GA aircraft do two steep 90-deg turns to get to final rather than one shallow 180 like navy pilots do ??? (ps, I'm a hang glider pilot, we only ever do shallow 180 onto final to avoid any steep turns near the ground) I agree with your stating the worst error was trying a go-around, but have a hard time putting myself in the pilots seat for the first approach, since he's not on a "standard approach" what I would do is sight the visual angle to the runway during downwind to gauge when I should 180 to final, the question is how many times does a GA pilot practice this sort of thing so that a pure visual landing (using just the ASI and no other instruments) is ingrained into the brain ?
I've got some Stingsport time... They are slick indeed, are really sensitive to pitch and can be a handfull if you don't use finesse on landing. Stress of an emergency didn't help... But yeah, staying on the ground is the best option by far. And you might get the callsign 'Weeds', which is pretty cool...
The Avgas/Mogas has nothing to do with it. 100LL is fine, you just have more frequent oil changes and gearbox overhaul occurs sooner. The "Caution" in the Sting POH is inappropriate and not consistent with Rotax guidance. Failing to get the carbs overhauled and inspected every 200 hours though this a hard and fast required maintenance task. The "sunk" float is probably a previous version that Rotax directed be swapped out several years ago. Not dumping flaps when you know you have the runway made was probably due to the pucker factor of wanting to hurry and get down ASAP. The LSAs are docile and forgiving but if I come in really hot, my SportCruiser is squirrel on crack and doesn't bleed off speed well.
Yes, check your tanks!!! I always smell my tanks and look for a nice blue tint in the gas on everything and if it's yellow or I am just not sure I dump the whole tank on my weeds or sometimes even worse I'll run it in my 454 powered Van at about 50% (I know, Bad idea)! I noticed the filler cap on my 2023 lawn mower says; "no E85 gas" and didn't pay attention to it. I also noticed my Boat says the same thing (I use nothing but, DockSide Fuel) and no issues. Lawn mower ran fine but, After leaving my Lawn mower with gas in it for the winter, this summer I tried to start it and nothing. What? This thing is brand new! Pulled the plastic Carb apart blew through the main jet, wiped the bowel out, put it back together again and put 92 Octane in it... Boom, started right up and runs better than new!
For as quickly as things were happening, I bet he thought the engine might have been coming back because of his perceived increase in speed. Regardless, I really think the guy deserves a lot of credit for keeping it over, and bring it down in an unpopulated area. It's a lot more than some Mig 23 pilots do.
i had put myself in a situation where i had to turn around on partial power right after takeoff similar to this guys situation on a small airfield with a little town right at the end of the runway. after performing a level flight 180 on partial power i was actually much higher and closer to the runway than I expected. We always practice and think about complete loss of power on takeoff, avoid the impossible turn etc.. but we never train for partial loss of power where you are able to do that turn and even keep your altitude.. Luckily i could profit from having done my ppl in a taildragger without flaps or airbrakes, so i extended my 180 into an s-turn to quickly loose some altitude and then slipped it in to safely land it on the remaining runway, but i had to really hit the brakes once i was down to stay on the pavement :) I was lucky there was almost no wind, or else this could have ended with me having to take a train home after that landing ;)
I flew out of HWO (Hollywood/North Perry) for 12 years. Recognized the L-19 Birddog in the beginning of this video. I absolutely LOVE flying the Birddog! (even crashed it once, same one that's in the video)
Hi Hoover, I make very few comments, I felt this one in particular needed my 2 cents worth. It had the feel of criticism, a bit of Monday night quarterbacking if you will. Boo on that. I suspect you and I with thousands of hours under our belts would have reacted differently in his situation. I also suspect if he had this to do all over again, he would make different decisions as well. Learning has occurred. There's a psychologist who does accident investigation of sorts with a great quote, "You have to understand the environment they were operating in when they made the decisions they made." After 45+ years in aviation I realized I've spanned 3 phases during my career regarding incident/accidents: Phase 1. What an idiot. Phase 2. Yeah, I can see how that could happen. Phase 3. Oh yeah, I've done that. Please keep up the great work, we appreciate you and keep learning every time we watch your channel.
Thank goodness he was safe. This shows the importance of knowing a lot more about potential scenarios before they actually happen. Just a little more knowledge would have helped this pilot in his decision-making.
Just like as any other "situation", emergency needs to be known. There is only a way: simulate it until you get practice. If are not ready to face it then you will take bad decisions.
I grew up in Miramar about a block south of Perry Airport. Planes were always falling out of the sky and landing on houses like giant lawn darts. People have been trying to get it shut down for decades. Unfortunately for them, the airport was there first and they don't plan on going anywhere. When it was built, there was nothing around. Also Hollywood Motor Speedway and the Hollywood Sportatorium had the same problem. Unfortunately both have been gone a long time 😢
I've got a little over 160hrs in this model of StingSport which at this time is over a decade ago and it was early on in my flying time. I had an incident where a spring on the carb broke after a touch and go. This resulted in a very sluggish throttle response. I discovered the issue immediately after the touch and go when the engine wouldn't come up to full power (much like the carb float issue here). I also couldn't retard the throttle to get the prop to landing speeds this resulted in chewing up a ton of runway quickly, but not enough airspeed to climb out as normal. Initially as I was airborne enough I elected to head upwind, gain enough altitude at about 50fpm until I was able to make the x-wind runway and land. By the time I was ready for the x-wind the engine was back up to full power. Because I wasn't at the home airport when this happened and the airplane was flying at that time I elected to head back to the home airport about 30 miles away. During the time I had in the air I was able to spend some time evaluating how much throttle authority I had available and it wasn't very responsive. So when I got into the pattern at the home airport (non-towered) I was coming in pretty fast. I flew the pattern as close as I could at the higher speed. Once I had the runway made I shut the engine off and dead sticked it in to landing. After rolling off the runway I turned the engine back on and taxied back to the hangar. While I did make a number of mistakes/errors during the flight it ended well and I learned quite a bit. I had a slight inclination of what was wrong when I was making the trip back to the home airport because one of the other partners in the plane (who also was the A&P on the airplane) had mentioned a similar scenario the week before. He only replaced one spring on the other carb and didn't inspect the rest of them. So this video caught my eye because of the time I have in the airplane and I was curious as to the source of their particular issue.
Energy management! Rolling off the end of a runway at a relatively lower speed is a low-energy state and is bound to produce less damage than impacting the earth at a higher velocity. Glad he walked away.
great vid. My first plane was a 48 Luscombe 8A that had no flaps. I got extensive slip training in that plane that I carried through my commercial years. Seems he's been behind the plane the whole time.
Experience gained on regular flights does not teach you anything on how to handle this emergency situation. You only learn this while flying simulated engine out conditions.
Hollywood North Perry is not a good place to have an engine failure after takeoff. Every single spare foot of land outside the perimeter has a building on it. This tends to persuade you to keep your circuits too tight. With this crash (was it an accident?) we have pilot who did not understand how well his aircraft could glide and also had no idea about approach speed control. His goose was cooked as he made his first high speed, close in approach. The first approach was a cue to get your camera out to record a guaranteed crash.
Most of us none ATPL pilots think we would cope with an engine failure. But the truth is only the pilots that have had them really know how well they would handle it and then it maybe to late.
When filling a plane with auto gas, it is important to use a fuel stabilizer product. The rust was caused by methanol in the fuel. It is hygroscopic and promotes corrosion. Autogas also contains MTBE. The aircraft is of Czech production and gasoline sold in Europe has ethanol in it rather than methanol, sometimes in combination with MTBE. Considering there was debris consistent with the fuel line material, it is probable the manufacturer is using fuel line that is incompatible with methanol and this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. This could also be the cause of a sunken float as they appear to be plastic or synthetic rubber. Frankly, as an A&P who owns an ELSA, I wouldn't use anything but metal floats in a carb that is running autogas. I see 700ft of grass at the end of the runway and think, 'I can take off and land in that space.'. This pilot clearly didn't have any short and soft field experience because attempting to take off again never would have entered his mind.
i hope we see more small turbines/turboprops and diesels.. with 100LL getting more and more scarce, being able to run JET-A will become a big deal.. not to mention how much more reliable turbines are.. it will be nice to have efficient, reliable options to the typical 160-400hp piston offerings we have now..
@pilot-debrief this accident highlights for me the lack of diligence with ongoing training in civil versus military flying. I would love to see a video talking about what amount of stall and spin recovery training, practice forced landings, and other emergencies training that civil aviation pilots are undergoing on a regular basis. I would guess for many its virtually none. A pilot should be able to glide their light aircraft to land "on a dime", this accident is a huge indicator of a lack of skills that are easily attainable with more training.
I feel bad for the guy. He just screwed that whole thing up. Honestly, I know about the forward slip and still I didn't think of it until you mentioned it. ...but I've never flown an airplane either, so...
Anyone can fly an Airplane but what seperates a good pilot from a not so good pilot is how they react in an Emergency situation. Secondly, it seems to me that most all pilots that do crash have little to no Emergency Procedure training after they receive their Private Pilot Certificate. I was taught that the more you practice emergency procedures, the less chance you have in becoming overwhelmed in the cockpit, especially when you are experiencing some kind of in-flight catastrophes. Maybe all of you Private Pilots reading this should book some time with a CFI just for emergency training, you never know, it just might save your life one day.
After watching this, I think it’s his first engine out. He didn’t do bad. The overwhelming emotional state of mind he was in. Made his decisions for him. I know because I have 34 engine outs.
That sounds like an extremely excessive number, even if you fly full time every day, by the average number of engine failures per flying hour. You sure you don't want to find a better mechanic?
I think we all agree, Hoover, that the decision to go around once down was a very bad decision. This go around default seems to be very common and can be very fatal. Otherwise, coming from low altitude orientation rather than high altitude orientation, I commend him on some good principles. Partial power is always a bit tougher, decision wise, than total loss. He did apply good energy management to the tight pattern with tight turns at 1 g. How so? He paid attention to what the airplane wants to do in a turn, as Wolfgang suggests in "Stick and Rudder." The airplane wants to get the nose down in turns to maintain airspeed, which is life when too low to recover from inadvertent stall, rather than altitude, which may only be just high enough to kill us after the stall/fall. Yes, with some power this gave him too much altitude (potential energy that becomes airspeed) and too much airspeed and no flaps on short final. In eleven of these, only two with partial power, I had (always have down low) zoom reserve energy to maneuver to a survivable landing zone. Yes, in almost all I had to use full flaps and full forward slip (rudder to the floor) to make the beginning of the landing zone. Anyway, he was doing proper low altitude principles until failure to use flaps and full forward slip in the turn to final. 1 g turns of any bank angle, as you know in your yo-yos in the F-15, are possible if we release the back pressure in the turn and let her have her head. She will know what to do. Good analysis all around, but think low altitude where airspeed is life. Yes, he overdid the airspeed.
In spite of being an AirForce weenie(flare to land, squat to pee)...GREAT videos. Great praise from this retired USN Phantom Phyler(also Turkeys-)...BZ...
Cannot believe this guy was "safely" on the ground and decided to pull that thing back into the air.
I’m a hang glider pilot. It’s a baffling mistake being that in love with a malfunctioning engine.
This guy flew Perfectly. HES A HERO for avoiding the busy city. Easy to criticize on YOOTUBE like hoovy when he's never flew a plane in his life. Guys a JOKE
@@peterguirguess853 It's a Light Sport aircraft. It's not going to demolish a house, but it will put one hell of a dent in a garage door.
@@peterguirguess853 Look in any mirror to see a joke.
@@peterguirguess853obviously you know nothing about him.
Better to hit the back fence at ground speed than to hit the front fence at flying speed
A wise pilot once told me, when you are in an emergency, do not think about saving the aircraft. It belongs to the insurance company now. It’s all about saving your life.
Could you do an analysis of the guy that did a go around and slammed in to the hangar? I remember the video went viral, but never heard anything after that.
The insurance company disliked it very much.
th-cam.com/video/KZc1TdJFAFs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jjuFP1Ud9h84dbh8
He did a video in it, It was at Addison airport in Addison TX. Everyone passed away, pilot error.
Your debriefs are addictive. Great detail and we are all learning alot. Cheers
Not a pilot but grew up in aviation with a bush strip at home. Slipping was the only way in. We had a bumpy 1,200 foot strip with 300 foot displaced threshold due to trees. We had 900 feet no matter which direction you landed or took off. We had several C172's and a 7AC. It never occurred how good of a pilot my dad was until watching these videos. He was a highly skilled bush pilot and mechanic. I was not allowed on the controls when landing at home but performed many take-offs with my dad as on reserve. I would land at the local GA strip and trade seats.
sounds like you could have easily gotten your PPL. never too late!
I have a Sting Sport. Flaps and a slip will get it slowed down and will burn altitude just fine. Base on the pilot's statements as related by Hoover, the guy was either totally frazzled by the situation or didn't seem to know about slips for glidepath control. Not using flaps suggests he did not have a pre-landing checklist memorized and probably was not religiously using checklists. Pre-landing checklist in the Sting Sport is pretty short since it only has one fuel tank, fixed gear, no carb heat, auto mixture, and a fixed pitch prop. To configure the Sting for landing the list is speed-flaps-trim. I see a lot of student pilots these days that are at a total loss when I ask them to use their checklists. Maybe a case of poor quality flight training.
Nothing stings like Hoover being disappointed with your pilot skills. :)
I own a similar "slick little light sport" and trust me, if you come in even a few knots hot, and then mismanage your elevator inputs by pulling back even a tiny bit too much in an effort to slow the aircraft down it will either float or do what seems like "bouncing off of ground-effect". You can balloon back up and end up with an extreme deck angle in an attempt to slow the aircraft as the plane badly wants to use that excess energy to go back up in the air. Under normal circumstances things can get out of hand in these light slick airplanes quickly in a non-stable landing configuration (High, fast, long, no flaps). The drill for such an event under normal circumstances is always a go-around. His brain was certainly yelling "GO-AROUND!". Plus, I think he understandably had the illusion of higher ground speed on touchdown because he was fixated on the runway directly in front of his propellor, and not far down the runway as one normally is. His "reptilian brain" yelled "go-around" which was the wrong decision to make. All in all, despite that poor decision he managed to save himself, the aircraft, and those on the ground. He is super lucky he didn't stall the inside wing several times (42 knots, 30-degree bank, no flaps) and go face first into the ground. Great outcome. Sadly, all he needed to do was proper maintenance of the reliable Rotax 912 or extend the downwind past the threshold for a few seconds and all this could have been avoided.
My students have this problem, I am so used to the aircraft now I can yank all the airspeed out of it if I need to without floating it, but yeah if your only flying recreationally and not several hours a day. Its very easy to mess these landings up.
Agreed. I fly a Tecnam P92 with the same Rotax. That thing just wants to fly. At 70 knots it will take a while to bleed speed on flare. If he had maintained proper glide speed, make a better judgment on height and thus extending downwind a bit more, he and the plane would have been fine. Still, he walked out, so kudos to him.
His ground speed was far below the the minimum why would he still be worried about floating or exceeding the runway?
Rotax? More like Blow-tax aimirite?
Great reply. I have flown this plane as well as the CTSW. Both take MUCH more concentration and energy management to land well compared to the usual cessna/piper planes. They just don't slow down well, and when they do, they drop hard and fast.
Good analysis, Hoover. Very surprising that the shop that did the condition inspection didn't know about the need to check the carburetor floats. That's a very well-known maintenance item. I'd also like to know how the crud got into the float bowls - probably a good idea to look at the fuel filter(s). I would not want to be the owner of the shop that did that inspection.
Thanks 👍 Good point!
One thing to think of: is it on the list?
Light Sport maintenance requires a special sign off after training - An FBO that does maintenance on certified aircraft normally can't turn wrenches on light sport machines. . . Thems da rules ya hear
@@UncleKennysPlace List or not, sorry to tell you... ANYBODY who has ever owned a carburetor with floats is a RAGING PAIN IN THE ASS about checking and cleaning that bowl regularly and making DAMN SURE the floats are still floating. When a float sinks, the needle valve drops and raw-gas just free-flows through the bowl and into the intake... drowns the engine and CAN start an engine fire on the spot. Usually, it just "floods" by going to rich and killing it out... literally drowning in fuel.
Most of us with carburetors (including the one on my motorcycle) know to clean them out regularly and make sure to keep GOOD filters in the fuel lines in GOOD or excellent condition. Most of us greatly appreciate the rising availability of "clear-view" in-line filters that we can add "after market" so a casual look into a clear container tells you ALL you really need to know about "crud" generally floating in your fuel. If it's ever "dirty" find someone who knows about these things and bitch about it. You'll either get it fixed or answer enough questions to take care of it on your own. ;o)
Having floats in an aircraft engine carburetor is an all-around bad design, and having contamination in the bowl is just one reason.
Thanks for the thorough analysis. Last year I had an incident with loss of power in my (exceptionally small, rather fast) aircraft over pretty unsuitable terrain. I was lucky enough to nurse the plane to a small glider field and drop it in there with hardly any thrust left. I even managed to get it on video and put it up on youtube for the world to see.
Now, the TL Sting is a very popular aircraft here as well, there's one in the same hangar as my own plane and I do know it quite well: The TL Sting is by no means an unforgiving beast, it's rather docile. Only by stacking all those little errors on top of each other did this pilot manage to turn the situation into a wreck.
Lesson to be learned:
Do keep up with the maintenance, don't stack risks. Build good routine in accordance with best practice and train for engine emergencies.
Stay safe, and I wish you all have a peaceful sky!
My mans went and snatched disaster from the jaws of safety
and lived to tell the tale! 🤤👌
It's this videos that made me decide to do a refresher on power off 180s with my CFI. Man, I'm glad I did as the first one wasn't the best. At least now I feel more confident in case I do get in this situation vs. just practicing EPs at altitude. Thanks Hoover for the quality of your reviews. Certainly keeps things top of mind and also a good analysis of what *not* to do as much as what *to* do in these situations.
I tell all of my students - once the motor fails, the airplane loses the right to be an airplane. It is now a capsule for our survival. Get it down and stopped, don’t try to save the plane.
Wow, terribly said.
Why would rotax use a chemically reactive material in the float? That's insane - to change mass with different fuel! I heard those can swell shut if you use ethanol gas.
Older equipment that was designed before ethanol was readily available. I have had a few fairly big boats. The original onboard fuel tanks were made with a resin that alcohol would react with. Lots of gummed up fuel filters, and carbs. In the boating industry lots of claims were made for damaged fuel tanks and the issues they caused, mostly with trailable boats. The owners would fuel their boats at a land based gas station rather than paying for marine fuel. So, they put fuel in their boats that readily absorbed water and was also a solvent.
There's a reason why marine and aviation fuel is made. I've burned my share of both marine fuel and 100LL and would never put anything but marine fuel in a floater, or aviation fuel in a flyer.
Most people think car gas ( pump gas) is mogas ! It’s not !! 😮 has less then 1% alcohol which binds water , no benzene which gums up the fuel system and it’s only transported in a special fuel truck !! Not like pump/ car gas , today 87 tomorrow 92 and another day diesel( 7 RON) . That’s why Lycoming allow MOGAS in many engines ( low compression) but prohibited Pumpgas !
Hindsight is 20/20. At least he walked away! Thanks!
This has nothing to do with hindsight, revoke his license this guy has no business flying. What's he going to do next, a loop de loop so he can land on the same runway he took off on?
The whole purpose of a debrief is to analyze performance to improve. It uses 20/20 hindsight to make better pilots for the future. The stakes for failure are just too high.
This one of the worst, non-fatal decisions I’ve ever heard of.
I’m finding this channel to be very valuable in understanding why incidents happen. Should be required watching for any pilot. Full disclosure, I’m not a pilot, but am fascinated by the process, and have a lot of respect for the men and women who do this safely.
There’s a golf course straight ahead. On almost every training flight after my first pfl at some time the instructor would close the throttle, pull carb heat and say, engine failure. It certainly kept me sharp.
Seems like a good idea to orient yourself around your home field, so that you know what your options are if the engine quits on you during takeoff.
I believe that golf course is about 1.3 miles off the departure end of Runway 28. If he had a complete engine failure then that might have been his best option rather than attempting an "impossible turn". However, he had already started turning right and that makes the airport a much more viable option.
Regardless, it's always a great idea to have an understanding of where you might land and what you're going to do if you lose an engine on takeoff at any airfield.
I think the tailwind component was the most critical factor. Usually power off landings are practiced on the same runway on which a pilot is practicing power-on landings into the wind. Managing an approach to a runway with a tailwind is a challenge and if you have never done any downwind approaches or landings with your cfi, likely will result in speed being way high at the flare, which appears to be what happened here.
Agree, but it was probably a very minor contribution. The video is rather conclusive, and that he was diving for the threshold.
@@Jimmer-Space88 He was diving on final probably because he didn't control the altitude and speed properly while turning and before getting aligned with the runway, and that was probably because of the wind component pushing the airplane toward the runway. It's a different world - training and practice is needed. Once the descent angle gets too steep (which can happen way before rolling out on final), speed cannot be controlled even with full flaps and a full rudder slip.
@@warren5699 You had me at "slip", I was thinking the same.
I love your channel. I have been an aviation enthusiast for many years. There are many reasons I have not been able to get a GA license, and one of them is my fear that I would end up here at your channel. Thanks for everything you do. I will settle for my Part 107 UAV
Thanks for watching! Congrats on getting your Part 107...way too many people trying to fly drones for commercial use without a license and I appreciate you taking the steps to get the license even if you don't use it for commercial purposes!
@@pilot-debrief Appreciate that very much. I am trying to do commercial and I love aviation. Thanks again for your channel.
Good debrief. It’s hard to know how I would react or behave in a situation like this. I make sub optimal decisions when stressed. Glad he survived.
I have a Sting. These things can land in less than 300ft, maybe 200ft on a good day.. these aircraft will also easily land on grass. Mind blowing decision making here..
Honestly, I'm not surprised.
I was in the middle of my PPL training when I got a job in Hollywood, FL.
I passed that airport twice a day every day - so one day I decided to stop in to see about maybe just finishing my PPL there.
The attitudes and environment I encountered there made me turn around and walk back out and just wait until I got back home.
I'm not saying EVERYONE there is like that, but it did leave a sour taste in my mouth for the aviators flying out of there.
What attitudes and environment did you encounter? You're not saying much.
Interesting, I was working on my A&P and walked around PERRY AIRPORT talking to anyone outside, and got the same reaction. People were very unfriendly and put me off. Only one shop that flew banners were very VERY nice and encouraging
Must be one of those CLICKY airports where strangers ARE NOT WELCOME
I encountered the same lousy attitude at an EAA group in Clearwater, very arrogant and ignorant people. They even attacked the treasurer of a Tampa EAA group who was visiting, thinking she was over there trying to steal members ! Talk about a bunch of psychopaths. Unlike a porcupine with the pricks on the outside, this CLUB had the pricks on the inside !
LIFE IS TOO SHORT !
A CFI buddy of mine told me that a lot of EAA groups are like that
While the EAA group at Tampa Exec were the most friendly people I ever met.
Pilots are definitely a funny breed. I have a buddy who has been flying for 20 years. He hates having to fly far out past coastlines for fear of crashing. At this point you're probably thinking, "Well yeah no pilot wants to ditch in deep water", but no, that's not the issue. What is the issue? He's afraid he'll be eaten by sharks. No joke.
Propeller rotating does NOT mean the engine is producing power.
At those speeds it does as the prop would stop if the engine was dead.
@@LTVoyager What speed does the prop stop?
As I mentioned in the video, neither the NTSB nor the pilot stated what the engine was doing from the moment the pilot said it "shuddered" to the time he crashed. The pilot did state that he increased the throttle when he tried to takeoff again, which there would be no reason to do if the engine wasn't producing power.
@@pilot-debrief th-cam.com/video/V84a3TwsytY/w-d-xo.html
You said prop spinning = at least partial power. That isn't true. Whether or not this guy's engine was producing power is irrelevant to my comment. I do enjoy your content, you are no doubt saving lives with you videos/analysis. Keep up the good work!
@@Public_land_trail_cams There is no answer to that as it varies by airplane, engine, propellor and probably density altitude. However, most small airplanes will have a hard time keeping the prop spinning below 60-70 knots.
Insane mental fixation to not seeing reality
I think he had a great fixation on trying to stay alive and avoid crashing into buildings but there was definitely some things he could have done differently to have a better outcome and that's the whole point of the pilot debrief.
There was no real reason he should have been so concerned about hitting a building. He had enough altitude to avoid them. He may have been trying to justify his actions, but this is not a good explanation. Loss of power is something we should all train for, your debriefs are very helpful!@@pilot-debrief
I didn't know that small planes use automotive fuel. Thanks for the good content as usual!
You bet! Ya...some planes can use automotive fuel so you definitely have to pay attention and plan ahead to make sure the airports you fly into have the services you need.
Most modern LSA use mogas. Some old ones can too, and in some cases, should, like the continental O-200 and 300.
The Rotax 912 was originally designed to run on automotive fuel. If you are running leaded gas, the oil change time is cut in half and it's hard on the valves and gearbox. 🙁
Yeah, it's fuel available at gas stations but it's ethanol-free which is what you use in boats and all small engines. It's called MOGAS.
I don't know why he didn't he abort the take off and bleed off the excess speed before Landing.
@@pilot-debrief Not sure why you'd put ethanol based fuel in any plane. Ethanol is hydroscopic, readily absorbs water, and the fuel is subjected to phase separation. You're just asking for trouble. Had a ROTAX engine in my jet ski. I'd buy ethanol free gasoline from a local gas station to put in it. It costs more, but in the long term costs far less than damaging your fuel system or engine.
I've burned my share of 100LL, marine fuel, and alcohol free fuel. I can't understand why someone can buy a boat or a plane, and then start pinching pennies that WILL either cost them many dollars in the future, or your life.
Oh, and who attempts a go around with a bad engine? Just plain stupid!
Great job, Hoover! I'm not a pilot but grew up with my Dad flying small aircraft and I pride myself on bing an analytical thinker. I really love your analysis on this channel and your depth of knowledge is top-notch. Keep up the great work!
He needed to train more with an instructor and proper maintenance would have prevented this accident. The pilot clearly lacked good judgment probably from inadequate training. He was very rusty. Flying 4 hours a month is more dangerous for these inexperienced novice pilots than to an experienced and well seasoned pilots.
The Sting isn’t approved for slips with full flaps. However, full flaps are very effective. He didn’t use them, which explains why he was still going so fast as he reached the end of the runway. He appears to have tried to force the plane down, which won’t work in the Sting: it will inevitably start to bounce because the nose gear is quite long. Once it was bouncing, he would have been trained that the only fix was a go-around. I’m impressed that the plane tried so hard to do what he wanted, without much power.
Why wouldn't you just neutralize the controls after the first bounce to avoid the PIO and let the plane settle and fly it back down to the runway?
@@pilot-debrief In theory, you would - and that would certainly have been the safest thing to try in this case, especially as partial power was available, so he could have given it a burst of power to stabilize, then back to idle and let it settle. In practice, many pilots find that neutralizing the controls and stopping bounces is really hard to do: experience shows that bounces tend to get worse rather than better. So, many instructors teach the automatic go-around if the plane bounces more than once.
THANK YOU FOR A GREAT DEBRIEF...I AM GOING TO START MY PRIVATE PILOT TRAINING SOON..THESE VIDEOS ARE SO GREAT FOR LEARNING..YOUR FORMAT IS AWESOME AND SIMPLE TO RETAIN..IF I EVER NEED THE ADVICE IN AN EMERGENCY AND I CANNOT THINK..! THIS IS A GREAT LEARNING CHANNEL!!
Some people should Not----> Drive cars, own guns, use power tools, be in public office, own animals, have children, vote, be cops, or fly planes. Did I miss anything?. The End.
Yup, you missed 'breed' !
@@nickgood8166 I said Not have children, you read like I do, you skip a few lines.
Please do not remind me about Trump
@@Gengingen So do you or do you not miss the great economy?, or are you waiting for loan forgiveness?.
@@NCLUSA the one thing that t-rump is good at is selling some fake version of Jesus to the gullible. Even if he just managed to keep his pecker from pecking away at random - among other random things like Jan 6, he would have had way more money to “fight” whatever he is fighting for. Oh & one more thing: while he had always excelled in suing everyone & their mother who happened to have a claim on his “fortunes” such as workmen working on his “projects” in order to just get paid as per contract, the fake Jesus-baited gullible had elevated him to whole new heights: the ability to select the “other” side of the Justice-system: Judges! This guy will subvert anything he wants to including Democrazy itself if given half & chance & when challenged will claim (fake) Jesus made him do it! Be warned, very warned!
Fly Air Force! (I'm an AF vet).
Your incident breakdowns are the best I've seen sir. No extraneous crap, just the facts. These other guys on this site doing this are too long winded.
Far too few pilots know how to use an aggressive slip to shed speed and altitude. Especially with full flaps it's amazing how fast you can descend in most planes with hard slip. Having that tool in your toolbox makes things like this much more survivable. And unlike flaps, the drag from a slip can be applied and removed as fast as you can move your feet and hands.
Outstanding rundown. Your videos will, hopefully, replay in my mind, quickly, if I’m ever confronted with such challenges.
I probably subscribe to 100 channels but by FAR, this one is the BEST. Second place in so far behind that I can’t even see it. Thank you, Hoover!
Low time sport pilot here. Whenever I go flying, I have a plan of spending atleast half the trip on practicing. That could be touch and goes or flight manouvres that teaches me better energy management. Relaxing, sightseeing is fine, but I am so worried about becoming complacent and suddenly find myself in a situation where I SHOULD have a "toolbox" of things I can do, for instance to slow down if I am coming in hot but can't go around, or I am trapped in terrain and need to turn around but be confident I can stay coordinated. These days I am doing all sorts of variations of lazy eights, and I have identified some things I could use the help of an instructor with. In my training, I remember how weird it felt to practice using nose high attitude to increase my rate of descent when I was high. There is a slight balloon to begin with, but then you begin to come down. When I read "Stick and Rudder" it all makes sense. Wolfgang goes as far as calling the elevators "flippers", to avoid the misconseption that the elevators (always) elevate...
I have nothing but for sympathy for this guy. It is only human to not notice when we start slipping and normalizing deviant behaviour... I am surprised by how much focus and energy I need to spend just to keep myself in check!
Great video and well explained. Thanks Hoover!
Glad you liked it!
Forward slips are a great method for dissipating excess energy. Unfortunate, I see reluctance to use it by many pilots today.
I learned slipping my accident once, after that I LOVED doing them for the hell of it
It's in the ACS.
The fuel and maintenance issues were a bad combo, but obviously, so was trying to turn a probable safe landing into a probable dangerous touch-and-go. Great analysis, as usual!!!
Trim for glide. Power on, Power off. Make it instinctive. Practice. It could save your life.
Some people shouldn't be flying an airplane!
I joined the channel because your synopsis of airplane mistakes is so interesting.
Wouldn't the propeller keep spinning due to windmilling anyway at 5:12? Everything else you said made sense.
I should have mentioned it in the video, but it sounds like his engine that you hear when he's on short final. There is audio from another aircraft flying overhead later in the video though.
Regardless of whether you can hear it, I'd argue it had to be producing some power because if the engine was dead then there's definitely no reason to try and takeoff again and he talked about how when he tried to takeoff he increased the throttle (which there would be no reason to do if the engine was dead).
I don't think a Rotax 912 will windmill if it's not making RPMS. The airplane would break apart before those things windmill. It takes one heck of a tug to burp 'em every morning.
@@peteralan5557Yeah good point.
@@pilot-debriefThanks :)
Side slipping is not taught enough and engine failures are not taught enough
Awesome channel, congrats on almost reaching 500K!
The standard response to an aircraft that is bouncing is to get it back into the air. You can say more experience would have benefited him, but no amount of experience or lack of experience would have prevented the engine failure. Likewise, the type of failure he experienced, loose debris clogging the gravity-fed fuel system, could have been momentarily solved with some hard, negative g bangs, causing him to believe the engine was kicking back in. Pilot's priority was not to hit buildings that might contain people, which is a big plus.
If you are bouncing as you go down the runway and you want to land, the standard response is to neutralize the controls and let the plane settle and fly it down to the runway. Bouncing multiple times is often the result of trying to chase the controls, creating a PIO, which can make things a lot worse.
Also, if you know the engine isn't working, the standard response should not be to try to takeoff when you are already down on the ground.
He did a great job avoiding crashing into buildings, but he also had an opportunity to keep it on the ground with minimal to possibly no damage to the aircraft and this is the whole point of a pilot debrief...to identify what could have been done better.
Thanks Hoover for your above reply. The accident pilot was clearly not aviating. As you pointed out, he had partial power, was climbing and simply could have flown a standard pattern. If he had done that he would have been within gliding distance of the airport at all times in case there had been a complete engine failure. Instead with an un-stable approach he was too fast and too high. The fact he bounced on landing was to be expected as a result of his poor approach. A bounce at that point was inconsequential. He was on the ground with plenty of runway and runoff, just keep it there. These videos and your debriefs are very helpful. As a pilot I can imagine getting into many of these situations. Having you break them down so clearly allows me to keep these things in mind each time I go up. You also allow us to see how professional military pilots are. This accident pilot is already probably feeling pretty bad, but I wonder what nickname he would get if he were in the military. @@pilot-debrief
your comment is seriously flawed.
@@thedahlins Clearly any pilot in the military would earn a horrific nickname, but few pilots in the military venture into the sky alone, without close support, and with as few hours of training, experience, and testing as the accident pilot. Heck if a military pilot did something like that, they'd never let him (or her) back in the simulator.
Nice reply crimony! It's nothing to laugh about and as you say, military pilots have close support! Those of us in GA are pretty much on our own in terms of how much we choose to be debriefed. It's good to have these conversations!
Pilots primary failing was not (being able or just forgot) doing a hard slip to get down on the runway, leading to pushing down and the resultant bounces. Trying to go around again was obviously a huge mistake. As a point of interest, the Sting is odd in having split flaps as opposed to any form of 'high lift' flap, so it's more of a speed brake. As for positioning around his modified circuit, I've had numerous students, that when knowing they're going to get an EFTO, have a bad habit of getting back to the strip quickly, but then finding themselves at 200 feet above the centre of the runway and nowhere to go but away from it. I usually let them do this once, to get them to concentrate on their positioning when practicing emerges procedures. Then there's the maintenance fault in the first place...
As long as we all learn from this.
I like the way you are using a time elapsed graphic in true flight time, it makes what you're saying understandable. Thank you!
Far more carburetor float scales are sold and used for weighing weed than their intended purpose.😁
There's something to be said about the typical private training. A go-around is presented as an all-encompassing max safety action in case of a landing going wrong. Of course, it is not. If there's doubt that the aircraft will be able to complete another pattern, it is of course much better to hit the bottom of the trees at 20 knots than hit the top of the same very trees at 60 knots.
Better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here. As another old goes learn from others mistakes you don't have time to make them all yourself. Glad he was OK to tell this story it could've been much worse.
Another quick correction.. the propeller will continue to spin (at normal flying speeds like best glide speed) even at 0 power. The only exception would be if there was damage done internally causing the prop to slam to a stop or the aircraft got way slow at some point.
Well, that plane features a Rotax 912S which has high compression and a gearbox, they usually stop windmilling when the engine shuts completely off due to missing spark or fuel. Personal experience here. With this plane hanging in there at minimum speeds the engine had to still deliver _some_ kind of power, otherwise he'd have crashed a lot sooner.
@@TDCflyer wasn't sure! Thanks for correcting me!
Yup it will take about 110-120 knots to spin a 912 depending on the prop.
Another helpful video from pilot debrief. Thanks 🙏 and keep the great videos coming. 👌
Great Pilot Debrief! 👍
I am not a pilot, so please take that into consideration when you read this. But despite the technical mistakes this pilot made, the root cause of this problem is the engine manufacturer's decision to allow the use of both avgas and mogas in a certain ratio. Also their decision to use float material that degrades if too much of one type of fuel is used.
It also occurs to me that given the cost of airplanes, even ultralights, the engines would have fuel injection not carburetors.
If this had been a motorcycle accident, he mught have said: "I just had to lay her down."
What an absolute set of misjudgements. Incredible.
Hoover, here's something that's always made me wonder, why do GA aircraft do two steep 90-deg turns to get to final rather than one shallow 180 like navy pilots do ??? (ps, I'm a hang glider pilot, we only ever do shallow 180 onto final to avoid any steep turns near the ground)
I agree with your stating the worst error was trying a go-around, but have a hard time putting myself in the pilots seat for the first approach, since he's not on a "standard approach" what I would do is sight the visual angle to the runway during downwind to gauge when I should 180 to final, the question is how many times does a GA pilot practice this sort of thing so that a pure visual landing (using just the ASI and no other instruments) is ingrained into the brain ?
I've got some Stingsport time... They are slick indeed, are really sensitive to pitch and can be a handfull if you don't use finesse on landing. Stress of an emergency didn't help... But yeah, staying on the ground is the best option by far. And you might get the callsign 'Weeds', which is pretty cool...
The Avgas/Mogas has nothing to do with it. 100LL is fine, you just have more frequent oil changes and gearbox overhaul occurs sooner. The "Caution" in the Sting POH is inappropriate and not consistent with Rotax guidance. Failing to get the carbs overhauled and inspected every 200 hours though this a hard and fast required maintenance task. The "sunk" float is probably a previous version that Rotax directed be swapped out several years ago. Not dumping flaps when you know you have the runway made was probably due to the pucker factor of wanting to hurry and get down ASAP. The LSAs are docile and forgiving but if I come in really hot, my SportCruiser is squirrel on crack and doesn't bleed off speed well.
Yes, check your tanks!!!
I always smell my tanks and look for a nice blue tint in the gas on everything and if it's yellow or I am just not sure I dump the whole tank on my weeds or sometimes even worse I'll run it in my 454 powered Van at about 50% (I know, Bad idea)!
I noticed the filler cap on my 2023 lawn mower says; "no E85 gas" and didn't pay attention to it.
I also noticed my Boat says the same thing (I use nothing but, DockSide Fuel) and no issues.
Lawn mower ran fine but, After leaving my Lawn mower with gas in it for the winter, this summer I tried to start it and nothing. What? This thing is brand new! Pulled the plastic Carb apart blew through the main jet, wiped the bowel out, put it back together again and put 92 Octane in it...
Boom, started right up and runs better than new!
I have a Kitfox with a Rotax 912 and run only av gas. I add a lead remover.
Run Marine Fuel. No lead remover needed.
For as quickly as things were happening, I bet he thought the engine might have been coming back because of his perceived increase in speed. Regardless, I really think the guy deserves a lot of credit for keeping it over, and bring it down in an unpopulated area. It's a lot more than some Mig 23 pilots do.
I agree. He walked away and no one was hurt.
I agree, he kept it flying and made it to the runway, but there are still lessons we can learn from this.
i had put myself in a situation where i had to turn around on partial power right after takeoff similar to this guys situation on a small airfield with a little town right at the end of the runway. after performing a level flight 180 on partial power i was actually much higher and closer to the runway than I expected. We always practice and think about complete loss of power on takeoff, avoid the impossible turn etc.. but we never train for partial loss of power where you are able to do that turn and even keep your altitude.. Luckily i could profit from having done my ppl in a taildragger without flaps or airbrakes, so i extended my 180 into an s-turn to quickly loose some altitude and then slipped it in to safely land it on the remaining runway, but i had to really hit the brakes once i was down to stay on the pavement :) I was lucky there was almost no wind, or else this could have ended with me having to take a train home after that landing ;)
I flew out of HWO (Hollywood/North Perry) for 12 years. Recognized the L-19 Birddog in the beginning of this video. I absolutely LOVE flying the Birddog! (even crashed it once, same one that's in the video)
Hi Hoover, I make very few comments, I felt this one in particular needed my 2 cents worth. It had the feel of criticism, a bit of Monday night quarterbacking if you will. Boo on that. I suspect you and I with thousands of hours under our belts would have reacted differently in his situation. I also suspect if he had this to do all over again, he would make different decisions as well. Learning has occurred.
There's a psychologist who does accident investigation of sorts with a great quote, "You have to understand the environment they were operating in when they made the decisions they made."
After 45+ years in aviation I realized I've spanned 3 phases during my career regarding incident/accidents:
Phase 1. What an idiot.
Phase 2. Yeah, I can see how that could happen.
Phase 3. Oh yeah, I've done that.
Please keep up the great work, we appreciate you and keep learning every time we watch your channel.
Thank goodness he was safe. This shows the importance of knowing a lot more about potential scenarios before they actually happen. Just a little more knowledge would have helped this pilot in his decision-making.
Just like as any other "situation", emergency needs to be known. There is only a way: simulate it until you get practice. If are not ready to face it then you will take bad decisions.
I grew up in Miramar about a block south of Perry Airport. Planes were always falling out of the sky and landing on houses like giant lawn darts. People have been trying to get it shut down for decades. Unfortunately for them, the airport was there first and they don't plan on going anywhere. When it was built, there was nothing around. Also Hollywood Motor Speedway and the Hollywood Sportatorium had the same problem. Unfortunately both have been gone a long time 😢
I've got a little over 160hrs in this model of StingSport which at this time is over a decade ago and it was early on in my flying time. I had an incident where a spring on the carb broke after a touch and go. This resulted in a very sluggish throttle response. I discovered the issue immediately after the touch and go when the engine wouldn't come up to full power (much like the carb float issue here). I also couldn't retard the throttle to get the prop to landing speeds this resulted in chewing up a ton of runway quickly, but not enough airspeed to climb out as normal. Initially as I was airborne enough I elected to head upwind, gain enough altitude at about 50fpm until I was able to make the x-wind runway and land.
By the time I was ready for the x-wind the engine was back up to full power. Because I wasn't at the home airport when this happened and the airplane was flying at that time I elected to head back to the home airport about 30 miles away. During the time I had in the air I was able to spend some time evaluating how much throttle authority I had available and it wasn't very responsive. So when I got into the pattern at the home airport (non-towered) I was coming in pretty fast. I flew the pattern as close as I could at the higher speed. Once I had the runway made I shut the engine off and dead sticked it in to landing. After rolling off the runway I turned the engine back on and taxied back to the hangar.
While I did make a number of mistakes/errors during the flight it ended well and I learned quite a bit. I had a slight inclination of what was wrong when I was making the trip back to the home airport because one of the other partners in the plane (who also was the A&P on the airplane) had mentioned a similar scenario the week before. He only replaced one spring on the other carb and didn't inspect the rest of them.
So this video caught my eye because of the time I have in the airplane and I was curious as to the source of their particular issue.
I learned how to sideslip early in my flight training it and it became second nature to me fun actually.
Bro wanted a new plane. He’s probably thinking….Screw paying for a new engine rebuild, make the insurance company buy me a newer and better plane.
Energy management! Rolling off the end of a runway at a relatively lower speed is a low-energy state and is bound to produce less damage than impacting the earth at a higher velocity. Glad he walked away.
Great break down, we can learn from this.
Time for this guy to stop flying FOREVER !!
great vid. My first plane was a 48 Luscombe 8A that had no flaps. I got extensive slip training in that plane that I carried through my commercial years. Seems he's been behind the plane the whole time.
They only way to get experience is to fly. I hope he learns from this incident and doesn't just give up on flying.
Experience gained on regular flights does not teach you anything on how to handle this emergency situation.
You only learn this while flying simulated engine out conditions.
Hollywood North Perry is not a good place to have an engine failure after takeoff. Every single spare foot of land outside the perimeter has a building on it. This tends to persuade you to keep your circuits too tight. With this crash (was it an accident?) we have pilot who did not understand how well his aircraft could glide and also had no idea about approach speed control. His goose was cooked as he made his first high speed, close in approach. The first approach was a cue to get your camera out to record a guaranteed crash.
Most of us none ATPL pilots think we would cope with an engine failure. But the truth is only the pilots that have had them really know how well they would handle it and then it maybe to late.
Thanks ... Keith Chicago IL ... someone else mentioned "crud" in the carb ...yes ,,, what in the world is it doing there???
Sometimes luck is more important than skill.
Bing carbs are pretty simple. Deferred maintenance resulted in accelerated failure. Works every time it's tried!
When filling a plane with auto gas, it is important to use a fuel stabilizer product. The rust was caused by methanol in the fuel. It is hygroscopic and promotes corrosion. Autogas also contains MTBE.
The aircraft is of Czech production and gasoline sold in Europe has ethanol in it rather than methanol, sometimes in combination with MTBE. Considering there was debris consistent with the fuel line material, it is probable the manufacturer is using fuel line that is incompatible with methanol and this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. This could also be the cause of a sunken float as they appear to be plastic or synthetic rubber. Frankly, as an A&P who owns an ELSA, I wouldn't use anything but metal floats in a carb that is running autogas.
I see 700ft of grass at the end of the runway and think, 'I can take off and land in that space.'. This pilot clearly didn't have any short and soft field experience because attempting to take off again never would have entered his mind.
Great channel love seeing truth
Thanks
i hope we see more small turbines/turboprops and diesels.. with 100LL getting more and more scarce, being able to run JET-A will become a big deal.. not to mention how much more reliable turbines are.. it will be nice to have efficient, reliable options to the typical 160-400hp piston offerings we have now..
@pilot-debrief this accident highlights for me the lack of diligence with ongoing training in civil versus military flying. I would love to see a video talking about what amount of stall and spin recovery training, practice forced landings, and other emergencies training that civil aviation pilots are undergoing on a regular basis. I would guess for many its virtually none. A pilot should be able to glide their light aircraft to land "on a dime", this accident is a huge indicator of a lack of skills that are easily attainable with more training.
It must be so peaceful living next to a airport
Some people are just not good in hi stress situations which cause bad decisions. Luckily this one didn’t turn out as bad as it could’ve.
he likes to live dangerously
Thank you.
I feel bad for the guy. He just screwed that whole thing up. Honestly, I know about the forward slip and still I didn't think of it until you mentioned it. ...but I've never flown an airplane either, so...
Were the fuel screens installed in the float bowels as per Rotax instructions?
Anyone can fly an Airplane but what seperates a good pilot from a not so good pilot is how they react in an Emergency situation. Secondly, it seems to me that most all pilots that do crash have little to no Emergency Procedure training after they receive their Private Pilot Certificate. I was taught that the more you practice emergency procedures, the less chance you have in becoming overwhelmed in the cockpit, especially when you are experiencing some kind of in-flight catastrophes. Maybe all of you Private Pilots reading this should book some time with a CFI just for emergency training, you never know, it just might save your life one day.
After watching this, I think it’s his first engine out. He didn’t do bad. The overwhelming emotional state of mind he was in. Made his decisions for him. I know because I have 34 engine outs.
That sounds like an extremely excessive number, even if you fly full time every day, by the average number of engine failures per flying hour. You sure you don't want to find a better mechanic?
@@justforever96 that's what i thought: find a better mechanic..........
@@justforever96 Or a better simulator...😂😂
You can always go around...until you can't.
Is that a PA38 parked on the apron there? Didn't know there were any of those deathtraps left
I think we all agree, Hoover, that the decision to go around once down was a very bad decision. This go around default seems to be very common and can be very fatal. Otherwise, coming from low altitude orientation rather than high altitude orientation, I commend him on some good principles. Partial power is always a bit tougher, decision wise, than total loss. He did apply good energy management to the tight pattern with tight turns at 1 g. How so? He paid attention to what the airplane wants to do in a turn, as Wolfgang suggests in "Stick and Rudder." The airplane wants to get the nose down in turns to maintain airspeed, which is life when too low to recover from inadvertent stall, rather than altitude, which may only be just high enough to kill us after the stall/fall. Yes, with some power this gave him too much altitude (potential energy that becomes airspeed) and too much airspeed and no flaps on short final. In eleven of these, only two with partial power, I had (always have down low) zoom reserve energy to maneuver to a survivable landing zone. Yes, in almost all I had to use full flaps and full forward slip (rudder to the floor) to make the beginning of the landing zone. Anyway, he was doing proper low altitude principles until failure to use flaps and full forward slip in the turn to final. 1 g turns of any bank angle, as you know in your yo-yos in the F-15, are possible if we release the back pressure in the turn and let her have her head. She will know what to do. Good analysis all around, but think low altitude where airspeed is life. Yes, he overdid the airspeed.
Under pressure, do not forget your training. - from the guy who pilot the A380 in a computer simulator. 😂. Stay safe.
In spite of being an AirForce weenie(flare to land, squat to pee)...GREAT videos. Great praise from this retired USN Phantom Phyler(also Turkeys-)...BZ...