A most informative video covering so much - thank you! 👍 Joseph Crossfield started out as a soap manufacturer and Crosfield Chemicals (Joseph Crosfield & Sons Ltd) invested in the railways. My understanding is these tank wagons carried sodium hydroxide with the livery appearing changing from green to blue in the fifties after which the 'Crosfield' brand ceased to be used by ICI. The RCH specification for volatile Class A liquid tanks was (from 1907 to 1939) a stone body colour with a 6" red band extending right round the body about halfway up the tank. From 1939 aluminim was permiited as a colour although during the war matt grey was accepted. The original 1907 RCH specification for Class B liquids was red oxide. As far as I can ascertain the six-pointed star was introduced in 1913. Not featured are the 'Ronuk' wagons which carried white spirit from Esso at Southampton to their premises at Portslade. Their name still exists as a product brand. Hope this is of interest! 🙂
Fabulous - thanks for posting this information. Can I ask your source - a book or knowledge "on the job"? I avoided Ronuk wagons given the area modelled and the limited route they covered.
One last thought - empty tanks were still considered to be hazardous as there was always some liquid or vapour residue after dischrging. Therefore, not using barrier wagons and calling it an "empty" is not allowed.
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 It is the vapour that is likely to ignite so empty class A tanks were treated as loaded unless purged. _Years ago we used to undertake demonstrations of this with two metal oil cans - one filled right to the brim with two-star petrol and the other part filled and emptied. A lighted match was dropped into both - the empty can blew apart with a spectacular bang witlst the match fizzled out in the brimming can......_ Pairs of barrier wagons were important for class A light petroleum tankers (petrol, kerosene etc). With dieselisation the risk of sparks from a steam engine receeded along with the use of barrier wagons. Barrier wagons were often a suitable wagon (otherwise not needed) to give separating from the locomotive /guard's van (or other wagons). Barrier wagons were also used with wagons carrying explosives. For example, SMC Marchwood has a fleet on internal user Vanwides packed with sandbag readly to be placed between explosives wagons if they are to be kept loaded overnight.
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 _Second attempt to reply to your first question as TH-cam appears to be deleting my posts...._ Pleased to be supporting your video! 🙂 Much comes from a career in the railway industry including knowing where to look for information. In terms of Crosfield's wagons it was the simple question of the colour of any spillage when weathering the wagons. Ronuk operated relatively locally so it made sdense to utilise the two Bachmann models (and an excellent coloyr photograph) - Dapol produced a Ronuk wagon in its earlier livery. In terms of reference, I can recomment Tourret's excellent book on Petroleum wagons.
This this like two episodes in one week, don’t spoil us, it might be addictive 😂 Absolutely loved this episode, and I’m going to have to look this one up, or find the answer below. Thanks so much for sharing
Very informative video, so much it didn't know about tank wagons every day is a school day as they say, This is one of the things I love about model railway community and TH-cam in general the wealth of knowledge Thank you for sharing keep up the great work Cheers Pete
Three books may help sort out the liveries, The 4mm Wagon part 2 by Geoff Kent, Petroleum rail tank wagons of Britain by R. Tourret and Oil on the rails by Alan Coppin. The National Benzole wagon is in the RCH livery introduced in 1907, "Buff" colour class 1 wagons. The model is based on a batch built in 1937, the high speed star was not applied until the wagon had run in for a minimum of 100 miles. The Shell Mex livery dates from 1940 and should have Aluminium solebars because it retains the red band on the tank, it may by this was an earlier one off in a photograph produced to influence the RCH, by the way ladders and platforms were rare before WW2. During the war all tankers were painted grey with the red band around the tank on class 1 wagons, the owners were recorded by their initials and number on the ends and the lower side as was the case with all wagons at that time. Post war the Aluminium was reinstated but with red solebars in place of the tank band, class 1 wagons had been built for the Air Ministry during the war and these were sold off to private owners who converted some them to class 2 and this is when the ladders were fitted to both classes removing the need to prop up a ladder to reach the top valve in goods yards! Now for barrier wagons and positioning in the train, here I use the GWR rules governing hazardous materials from the late 1930's (other companies rules must have been similar) back then chemicals, oil products, acids etc. we shipped in steel drums, carboys etc. Industrial quantities were shipped between industrial facilities in small blocks of an owners tank wagons grouped together in the train and if highly hazardous treated like gunpowder vans. Applying the GWR rules to tankers would indicate actual barrier wagons were not required providing the adjacent wagon was not loaded with any material that would react, easily burn etc. The same would apply to class 1 tankers "inside" a train so only tankers at the front and rear or block trains need "barriers". Operating yards and individual branch lines would have their own special rules. Finally tankers of different owners were rarely mixed together.
I'm no expert. But I would have thought a benign tank could act as a barrier wagon to a dangerous one. As for National Benzole, that was the company name,and didn't always carry benzole spirit, which was phased out in light of added lead. That's partly why they were renamed National from the early 60s..remember the smurfs!!! The milk tank incidentally tended to always be fully fitted so they could run with passenger trains to get the milk to its destination faster. You wouldn't normally see them amongst 40mph limited un fitted open wagons
Milk wagons - very West Country GWR!! Try as I might, I am struggling to find decent photo evidence of tank wagons in trains to understand the whole barrier wagon thing. It may be that two different types of tanks did not travel in one train, so that might be my answer. Any info that anyone can point me to will be gratefully received.
@yarslowmodelrailway1 actually I think you may have hit on something. Its likely that tanks were filled by and large as a whole train rather than part of a pick up goods mish mash. Good subject for a video though. And yes I am a west country lad and remember milk wagons....just
As always very informative. When did the practice of barrier wagons stop? I have a nice rake of ESSO TTA tankers (in TT:120) they are fitted so I will run them directly behind a loco and no brake van. Layout is set roughly mid 60’s in NE England. 😁
Barrier wagons stopped with the demise of steam - diesel locomotives did not pose such a threat as a steam engine in the event of any difficulties. Not sure that TTAs and "mid 60's" fit together - have a look at British Railways TOPS codes - you might need to rethink your dates??
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 The TTA's were first made in 1964 so so long as they are bright and shiny and new they are OK I have seen photos of them behind 8F and 9F locos with barrier wagons
They were not known as TTA's in the 60's TOPS coding came into use in the early 70's - i think the A refers to Air brakes which could not be steam hauled but the early versions of these tanks were vacuum braked and converted to Air brakes later on (not sure when)
Hi Barry, Informative and thought provoking as usual. I think the Shell Motor Spirit and the khaki National Benzole (I have similar ones branded Shell BP made by Mainline) wagons are earlier versions of the red solebar highly inflammable type as they both have a red band around the centre of the tank and end stanchions. I am guessing that this red band migrated to the solebar later (in the 50's perhaps). I also vaguely remember reading that the khaki livery dates from Ministry of Defence wagons from WW2 and so could still have running like this in the 50's and early 60's in a highly weathered state. Unfortunately I cannot substantiate these theories. I hope someone else can. Do you know if loaded coal wagons were acceptable as barrier wagons or do the barrier wagons, if loaded, have to be loaded with something inert like stone? Sorry that is more questions than answers, but there must be an expert out there somewhere. Cheers Jon
Hi Jon. Thanks for the info on the khaki livery - I would tend to agree with you but, of course, older colour photos are hard to find. Coal wagons, if loaded, would not be used as barrier wagons. My understanding is that they were usually empty opens but a contributor here suggets that an inert load could be carried. Again, its an eternal phot search but I suspect examples of both could be found.
Tanks for the lesson, pun intended. Very informative, and appreciated.
Glad it was helpful!
A most informative video covering so much - thank you! 👍
Joseph Crossfield started out as a soap manufacturer and Crosfield Chemicals (Joseph Crosfield & Sons Ltd) invested in the railways. My understanding is these tank wagons carried sodium hydroxide with the livery appearing changing from green to blue in the fifties after which the 'Crosfield' brand ceased to be used by ICI.
The RCH specification for volatile Class A liquid tanks was (from 1907 to 1939) a stone body colour with a 6" red band extending right round the body about halfway up the tank. From 1939 aluminim was permiited as a colour although during the war matt grey was accepted. The original 1907 RCH specification for Class B liquids was red oxide.
As far as I can ascertain the six-pointed star was introduced in 1913.
Not featured are the 'Ronuk' wagons which carried white spirit from Esso at Southampton to their premises at Portslade. Their name still exists as a product brand.
Hope this is of interest! 🙂
Fabulous - thanks for posting this information. Can I ask your source - a book or knowledge "on the job"? I avoided Ronuk wagons given the area modelled and the limited route they covered.
One last thought - empty tanks were still considered to be hazardous as there was always some liquid or vapour residue after dischrging. Therefore, not using barrier wagons and calling it an "empty" is not allowed.
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 It is the vapour that is likely to ignite so empty class A tanks were treated as loaded unless purged.
_Years ago we used to undertake demonstrations of this with two metal oil cans - one filled right to the brim with two-star petrol and the other part filled and emptied. A lighted match was dropped into both - the empty can blew apart with a spectacular bang witlst the match fizzled out in the brimming can......_
Pairs of barrier wagons were important for class A light petroleum tankers (petrol, kerosene etc). With dieselisation the risk of sparks from a steam engine receeded along with the use of barrier wagons. Barrier wagons were often a suitable wagon (otherwise not needed) to give separating from the locomotive /guard's van (or other wagons).
Barrier wagons were also used with wagons carrying explosives. For example, SMC Marchwood has a fleet on internal user Vanwides packed with sandbag readly to be placed between explosives wagons if they are to be kept loaded overnight.
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 _Second attempt to reply to your first question as TH-cam appears to be deleting my posts...._
Pleased to be supporting your video! 🙂
Much comes from a career in the railway industry including knowing where to look for information.
In terms of Crosfield's wagons it was the simple question of the colour of any spillage when weathering the wagons.
Ronuk operated relatively locally so it made sdense to utilise the two Bachmann models (and an excellent coloyr photograph) - Dapol produced a Ronuk wagon in its earlier livery.
In terms of reference, I can recomment Tourret's excellent book on Petroleum wagons.
This this like two episodes in one week, don’t spoil us, it might be addictive 😂
Absolutely loved this episode, and I’m going to have to look this one up, or find the answer below.
Thanks so much for sharing
Glad to learn all you discover 1BCamden.
I love it when you come up with these sort of updates, I just find it very interesting and of course will use it on my layout, one day.
Glad you enjoy it!
Very informative video, so much it didn't know about tank wagons every day is a school day as they say, This is one of the things I love about model railway community and TH-cam in general the wealth of knowledge Thank you for sharing keep up the great work Cheers Pete
Thank you Peter. Hopefully, others can fill in gaps in my knowledge and so the wheel goes round.
Now that was very interesting, every day is a school day, Thanks
Indeed it is!
Straight in to 'save for later'. Very informative, thank you.
Thanks Stephen
Three books may help sort out the liveries, The 4mm Wagon part 2 by Geoff Kent, Petroleum rail tank wagons of Britain by R. Tourret and Oil on the rails by Alan Coppin.
The National Benzole wagon is in the RCH livery introduced in 1907, "Buff" colour class 1 wagons. The model is based on a batch built in 1937, the high speed star was not applied until the wagon had run in for a minimum of 100 miles. The Shell Mex livery dates from 1940 and should have Aluminium solebars because it retains the red band on the tank, it may by this was an earlier one off in a photograph produced to influence the RCH, by the way ladders and platforms were rare before WW2. During the war all tankers were painted grey with the red band around the tank on class 1 wagons, the owners were recorded by their initials and number on the ends and the lower side as was the case with all wagons at that time. Post war the Aluminium was reinstated but with red solebars in place of the tank band, class 1 wagons had been built for the Air Ministry during the war and these were sold off to private owners who converted some them to class 2 and this is when the ladders were fitted to both classes removing the need to prop up a ladder to reach the top valve in goods yards!
Now for barrier wagons and positioning in the train, here I use the GWR rules governing hazardous materials from the late 1930's (other companies rules must have been similar) back then chemicals, oil products, acids etc. we shipped in steel drums, carboys etc. Industrial quantities were shipped between industrial facilities in small blocks of an owners tank wagons grouped together in the train and if highly hazardous treated like gunpowder vans. Applying the GWR rules to tankers would indicate actual barrier wagons were not required providing the adjacent wagon was not loaded with any material that would react, easily burn etc. The same would apply to class 1 tankers "inside" a train so only tankers at the front and rear or block trains need "barriers". Operating yards and individual branch lines would have their own special rules. Finally tankers of different owners were rarely mixed together.
Wow! Great stuff William - thanks for sharing this.. A lot to absorb but I will have a read and a think about my tankers.. Thanks again.
Not what I thought from a first glance at the title 😂
Great video as always, these videos have helped a great deal with sorting out my trains
Glad to help!
Interesting information. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Love your work.
Thank you!
Disappointed you didn't go for the cheap joke - an MOD low loader with a Sherman Tank on it... most definitely something that goes bang!!
Neil - would I stoop so low? - Of course I would, just missed that one.
I'm no expert. But I would have thought a benign tank could act as a barrier wagon to a dangerous one.
As for National Benzole, that was the company name,and didn't always carry benzole spirit, which was phased out in light of added lead. That's partly why they were renamed National from the early 60s..remember the smurfs!!!
The milk tank incidentally tended to always be fully fitted so they could run with passenger trains to get the milk to its destination faster. You wouldn't normally see them amongst 40mph limited un fitted open wagons
Milk wagons - very West Country GWR!! Try as I might, I am struggling to find decent photo evidence of tank wagons in trains to understand the whole barrier wagon thing. It may be that two different types of tanks did not travel in one train, so that might be my answer. Any info that anyone can point me to will be gratefully received.
@yarslowmodelrailway1 actually I think you may have hit on something. Its likely that tanks were filled by and large as a whole train rather than part of a pick up goods mish mash. Good subject for a video though.
And yes I am a west country lad and remember milk wagons....just
good stuff
Thanks
As always very informative. When did the practice of barrier wagons stop? I have a nice rake of ESSO TTA tankers (in TT:120) they are fitted so I will run them directly behind a loco and no brake van. Layout is set roughly mid 60’s in NE England. 😁
Barrier wagons stopped with the demise of steam - diesel locomotives did not pose such a threat as a steam engine in the event of any difficulties. Not sure that TTAs and "mid 60's" fit together - have a look at British Railways TOPS codes - you might need to rethink your dates??
@@yarslowmodelrailway1 The TTA's were first made in 1964 so so long as they are bright and shiny and new they are OK I have seen photos of them behind 8F and 9F locos with barrier wagons
They were not known as TTA's in the 60's TOPS coding came into use in the early 70's - i think the A refers to Air brakes which could not be steam hauled but the early versions of these tanks were vacuum braked and converted to Air brakes later on (not sure when)
Could you do a bite size bit about headcodes
Hi Kian - take a look at the "Classes of Train" Bite Size video from March 2022. Enjoy!
Hi Barry, Informative and thought provoking as usual.
I think the Shell Motor Spirit and the khaki National Benzole (I have similar ones branded Shell BP made by Mainline) wagons are earlier versions of the red solebar highly inflammable type as they both have a red band around the centre of the tank and end stanchions. I am guessing that this red band migrated to the solebar later (in the 50's perhaps). I also vaguely remember reading that the khaki livery dates from Ministry of Defence wagons from WW2 and so could still have running like this in the 50's and early 60's in a highly weathered state. Unfortunately I cannot substantiate these theories.
I hope someone else can.
Do you know if loaded coal wagons were acceptable as barrier wagons or do the barrier wagons, if loaded, have to be loaded with something inert like stone?
Sorry that is more questions than answers, but there must be an expert out there somewhere.
Cheers
Jon
Hi Jon. Thanks for the info on the khaki livery - I would tend to agree with you but, of course, older colour photos are hard to find. Coal wagons, if loaded, would not be used as barrier wagons. My understanding is that they were usually empty opens but a contributor here suggets that an inert load could be carried. Again, its an eternal phot search but I suspect examples of both could be found.