4680 Teardown Analysis // DBE: Big Risks & Big Rewards + Patent Landscape
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- The is the second video of the 4680 Teardown Series. Tesla DBE is Tesla's revolutionary Dry Battery Electrode coating technology for battery cell production. Tesla took a big risk with DBE but it has the potential for big rewards. I'll also cover the Patent landscape and bear, base, and bull cases for the technology.
Cleanerwatt on DBE Challenges and Fixes:
• EXCLUSIVE Tesla 4680 B...
Cleanerwatt on Project Swift:
• Tesla's SECRET NEXT GE...
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Timeline
00:00 Intro
02:00 Wet Electrode Steps
04:28 How to Know if it’s DBE?
06:31 Dry Coating Methods
07:50 DBE Patent Landscape
08:36 DBE Steps // Mixing and Fibrils
09:51 PTFE Degradation Problem
10:43 Solving PTFE Degradation
12:09 The DBE Anode is More Important
13:02 What’s up with the Cathode?
14:11 DBE Steps // Roll, Calendar, Bond
15:39 DBE Challenges and an Examples
17:57 Thick Electrodes
21:40 DBE Bear Case
27:26 DBE Base Case
28:05 DBE Bull Case
29:07 Summary
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Note 1: From Weikang Li of UC San Diego:
With a conventional wet electrode anode, the CMC-Na can be dissolved by water or NMP, while SBR does not dissolve but can be dispersed in water. This means that if a CMC-Na/SBR anode is soaked in water, the graphite particles will detach from the Cu foil.
The Tesla anode was intact when soaked in water, even with a sonicating process. The same was true when the Tesla anode was soaked in NMP, it remained intact, meaning it also wasn't a PVDF binder. With that in mind, we were able to confirm that the Tesla anode didn't use CMC-Na/SBR binder or any other water-soluble binders.
Although we don't have direct evidence to confirm the the binder type, the indirect chemical and physical evidence is strong that it didn't use a conventional wet coating process.
Note 2: Enpower is developing a dual-layer electrode coating technology that only requires one pass. I'm not sure if other manufacturers are using a dual-layer/single pass coating, but from the people I spoke to it sounded like a dual-layer/dual-pass coating is the way dual-layer electrodes are currently produced. Correct me if I'm wrong!
A 2. giga Texas and giga Berlin by 2025 would be very nice.
Cybertruck and Semi have unending demand. I hope they go for extremely high production numbers.
LFP Megapack and Powerwall and a extreme increase in production is very necessary, they have a long order queue for the past 2 years and dont seem to hurry.
Did/Does Tesla even have cathode production facilities up an running yet? On the plans for Berlin it stated Cathode work on the forth floor of the cell factory, in Texas they are still building the facility, not sure if they have anything going on in the cell manufacturing part of the plant for cathode production.
I am a great fan of your channel.
If DBE technology is applied on the anode from the 4680 cell, then it would be also great if UCSD team did EDS mapping to check during the SEM observation. I am pretty sure that strong fluorine signal might be detected due to PTFE binder if it is DBE.
My other concerns are that PTFE is non-sticky and hydrophobic as well as its electrochemical reducing problem. Just imagine cooking pans. PTFE based electrodes are not stick to the current collector without primer coating. This primer is wet-based, so that controversially dilute the core advantages of DBE. PTFE is not also well-wetted to the polar solvent such as NMP, water, and even liquid electrolyte. Reminding difficulties of cell formation to achieve electrolyte immersing and SEI formation, PTFE might hinder this behavior. This would be more severe to the higher loading, higher density, and larger size of electrode. If the anode was intact, the poor wettability can be another reason. These are just scientific problem, but there are other engieering problems (eg. R2R tension to F/S film and low yield) but I cannot write the whole things here.
The disassembled 4680 cell looked quite dry without liquid electrolyte. Is there any possibility that it was mock-up for their demo?
FYI, LGES is utilzing double layer coating process to their factory lines.
the enpower technology looks very promising!
I should correct my comment. EDS mapping might not be suitalbe to distinguish wet and dre electrode because PVDF also has fluorine as well.
It still astonishes me that this detailed chemical and manufacturing analysis is available and widely dispersed in the Tesla community. Your contributions are making us better investors and greatly expanding our knowledge base. Thanks.
You're most welcome Christopher! I wouldn't be able to do it without you folks.
Never thought I'd be at a point in life where I was as excited about a technician Limiting Factor video as my favorite TV show.
🤣
The Tesla community is incredibly lucky to have you Jordan. Your already high credibility reached stratospheric levels recently when we found out that some of your videos were compulsory viewing for some of the tech writers working with Congress on the Inflation Reduction Act. Your videos were as credible but way easier to understand than those from the DOE! Congratulations for this brilliant explainer on DBE.
😁
This channel is beyond impressive.
Bringing behind the door lab research to the front line, I’m speechless.
Higher cell manufacturing rates means Tesla can make more stationary battery packs. They have production uses for every cell they can get.
Tesla's ability to move around with different chemistries is a blessing...and a curse. You'd love to have your supply be standard, one form factor for all applications but it's not feesible.
LIPO is ideally suited for stationary storage, however they can make it work in standard range EVs because of the efficiencies they have. It's not for range however.
The 4680 is the high end cell, but isn't there yet. The cells they do have though have been shifted to Semi and Cybertruck IMHO. This frees up 21700s and 18650s for the S, X, 3 and Y and there are many of these available to them from all the various manufacturers.
In the end, I think we will see Tesla one use a universal battery for storage and one for vehicles, but that end is pretty far off.
Jordan this is one of your best videos yet. Your narrative continues to get clearer and easier to follow, even when the subjects are incredibly complex. Thank you for what you do, we are lucky to have you!
You're most welcome buddy!
Watching again to learn and fun
The video reminds me of the advances that were made in the early days of semiconductor manufacturing. In the early days (1972) a transistor was 10 um in size. The 8008 processor used 3500 of them. Now they are 4nm and processors use billions of them.
Battery tech is going to develop the same way. The more that is spent on batteries the more will be spent on battery tech. And the faster the innovation curve is going to move forward.
It's been 50 years since the 8008 was shipped. In 50 years batteries will be everywhere and be extremely cheap.
It’s crazy to think they could cost an order of magnitude less which would be $10/kWh which would address pretty much all multi-day use cases for stationary storage.
@@SolveFixBuild I know, right? But give it 20 years.
Transistor radios used to be sold by how many transistors were in it. "A 3 transistor radio!" This was before integrated, mixed signal RF circuits like we have today.
Just look at what happened in the solar market too.
At some point batteries will get down to their material cost plus a small margin. Mines will start up to feed raw materials to the industry. Lithium isn't the only energy carrier out there. Sodium, aluminum, potassium, iron can work too, for various applications.
ICE is dead. Oil as a transportation fuel is dead. Welcome to the new world.
@@SomeTechGuy666 someone like yourself might get an analog of Moore's Law, but for batteries, named after them. I'd venture it's already in existence, but for lack of data just not widely recognized yet. Based on the graphs for density, someone has already had that light bulb moment I would bet.
Your explicit descriptions explain the future and I feel like a bystander watching a real-life movie. Reverse engineering is one thing, but to analyse the reason that each decision is made is absolutely fascinating...
🤜🤛🤠
It was Tesla’s purchase of Maxwell in 2019 that convinced me to start buying Tesla stock.
I see parallels to the paper making process. . .
Brilliant video Jordan....not just having the knowledge to evaluate and analyse this incredibly complex issue but having the gift to explain it in a way that is interesting and understood by me as a lay person. 👍👍👍👍
Just thinking out loud if 4680 production ramps and degradation is limited then this tech will dominate vehicle production for the next 10 yrs. Any future breakthrough tech would and should be ramped for more energy dense applications such as airplanes and/or farming during the early ramp years of that tech but you never know what future might bring to the table. Thanks Jordan this was a terrific video. Seems to me that the other companies working on 4680 form-factor cells would use the wet process so that those chemistries can just be plugged into the pack level manufacturing process without disrupting or complicating it.
Great video (as always) and thanks for the shoutout! From what I have been told, you seem to be on the right track.
Will holy shit! That's cool
Thanks for the clear and comprehensive video Jordan! Love seeing Tesla’s long game evolving at the microscopic level. Very exciting!
I believe this video was the most comprehensive, info-dense, well-organized and relevant video I have ever watched on TH-cam. Astoundingly well done!
Hey thanks man! It was quite tedious, lol. Glad to hear, it's appreciated
I'll be rewatching this a few times. Brilliant content .
I consume a lot of Tesla and other tech TH-cam content and your ability to make hyper complicated subject matter understandable without losing detail or impact is unmatched; better even than Forrest Gump’s Mom! Thanks Jordan.
Thank you so much for your hard work on this content Jordan!
It is said that Elon always stays close to the limiting factor. So if that be batteries, expect him to be working hard with the battery production process. That shouldn't be that hard to detect.
🤗 THANKS JORDAN AND ALL YOUR SUPPORTERS 👍
For keeping us informed and
Explaining in terms for laypeople 🤔😎💚💚💚
🤜🤛
I hope you know, I consider you to be a treasure Jordan. Thank you for making the Tesla community something amazing.
🔥🔥🔥🤜🤛
So many interesting issues, problems, and solutions to look at for those who enjoy the deeper dives into production. Batteries are such an important part of EV production and their successful adoption that they are the limiting factor in EV production as you recognize. It will be interesting to see how the battle turns out between Tesla's engineering prowess and the problems they are facing with dry film production. Looking behind the curtain as always requires lots of work and we appreciate that you are always there working on finding out the status of development of batteries and battery production. Looking forward to the next few months as we see the direction things take.. dry film or wet film that is the question.
Audacious. Bold with an element of risk that is a Tesla Way. Risky but a huge reward
The amount of work that goes in the video is absolutely impressive. Much respect. Also thank you for the shout out, unexpected thus more positively surprising.
I think the strategy of Tesla is very well done. You see, tabless (or better multi tab) 4680 design is very important if you want to fully utilize the advantages of DBE, because you want DBE to have thicker loading electrodes, but this increases the resistance of the electrode per cm2 of course. Hence in order to handle this the multitab/tabless design is so important in order to keep the DCIR in check at high loadings. These two things go hand in hand and I hope they succeed. The DCIR (internal resistance) is key to have high power but also to enable fast charging which is of course also influenced by your Si content but the main effect to control is through DCIR (and Si is also helping by making the electrodes thinner)
A final comment on the limiting factor for battery cell production. This is depending on which cell type you make. For cylindrical cells you are right however for stacking type (pouch, prismatic cells etc.) its often the stacking process since this is much slower than winding, which results in the need for much more stackers in the line and increases cost.....(sometimes two coating line need 16-20 stackers in assembly)
I wonder how well the thick dry electrodes are handling the winding process and if there might be some issues in the inner radius part with cracking or ageing, maybe the UCS guys should measure the adhesion force and compare it to wet process...Wait and see.
Also finally LG, SDI, CATL are also developing 46XX type of cells and dry electrode...many also use filibriation:)
Thanks for the insights!
Tesla's purchase of Maxwell is taking on a new look. Awesome!
Thanks for such an in depth video! Seeing Maxwell as the biggest owner of patents on Binder Fibrillation was eye opening!
I actually understood most of what you said. Thanks for the laymen's help. Great and helpful video!! Signed up on TH-cam!!
Outstanding presentation! Makes it clear why Drew Baglino follows your channel.
Ohiiiii, how I've waited for this! Thank you for making this available to all of us
Wubba lubba dub dub!
Fascinating content. I wonder if any Lega CEO could follow this video's revelations. Regardless, odds are low that Farley, Barra or Tavares care enough to view it. And Toyoda? Not a chance!
Perhaps Farley wouldn't understand it himself but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. But I suspect in any case he would assign some engineers to watch it and report back. Farley is in a completely different world than Barra. Watch Sandy Munro's interview with Farley to get a better insight.
I know I keep banging on about it, but I still can't help comparing the "dry mix" to photocopier toner!
Just like an xerox machine with different toner and paper.
Awesome video. I can’t understand why Munro would not accelerate your cell delivery. The first cell out was almost a month ago and the data you will collect is so important.
I suspect they have a line of commercial customers for the report?
The first cell is going to the highest bidder on his niece’s go fund me page. For raising money to treat her leukemia.
@@danielguillaume9928 I think you’re taking me a little too literally. Yes I realize he’s auctioning off the first cell but the second cell came out two minutes later.
As I recall, their claim was that the size of the area needed for this would be vastly reduced with this process. Eliminating those cookie-baking ovens would be a pretty big deal.
Small, modular, easily expandable battery plants, either within full Gigafactories, or "free standing, depending on application, churning out high energy capacity in fewer cells, but with cells exiting "like bullets " sounds like a plan for Terawatt hour production?
Your visuals are astonishing! They help a lot in understanding what you’re talking about, thank you!
Something you mentioned about samsung rang a bell for me. About 6 months ago I was reading up on other suppliers for 4680, catl byd and panasonic had been asked to provide qualifying samples to tesla. In a somewhat unusual move, at least from my perspective apparently samsung unilaterally asked tesla to consider them as a supplier also and provided samples. How true this is I'm not sure but apparently samsung are making 4640 cells also. I haven't heard anything beyond the initial report either way.
Thanks for the continued excellence Jordon!
I’ve watched this several times now and I’m still digesting it. Really great information. Thanks!
🙌
Even if DBE doesn't work out for Tesla at least three of its partners are working on 4680 cells (and let their floor space or energy consumption be their problem), so in theory they should be able to go structural BIG TIME and grow at 50% until Tesla's own cell output catches up. Question is when.
Without full on DBE 4680 may only be responsible for 10% of all 2023 capacity used in Tesla products, but growing at 15% or more in the following years as Elon goes wet. That might've came off wrong. And if DBE does work out, Kato Rd, Austin, Berlin (and likely Shanghai) will go bonkers in 4680 output in 18 months -then LFP will be the problem: being cheap and available, but not quite yet compatible with cylindrical format and structural pack.
Either way, Cybertruck, performance cars and Semis will take all the 4680 cells from all sources for years to come, and I think CATL LFP/M3P and Byd Blade can be very much reworked for structural use, having thick shells and all. And by 2025 I'd imagine Tesla will figure out the iron phosphate cylindrical challenge, perhaps doping it with nickel, manganese and silicon on the anode side. Really, raw materials and geopolitics are my fears for bottleneck not cell availability under current Tesla contracts.
LFP is compatible with cylindrical cells. It is just that the energy density is already low, so prismatic makes up for some of that. In the other hand, cylindrical would allow better thermal management, which could allow for faster charging
Your points are all quite valid. For LFP many players already going more and more towards LFMP tobget this higher voltage range through manganese.
By 2025 I would assume Si content to be between 10-15% if the swelling can handled. The 4680 through its thicker can might be able to help.
Raw material, refining and cathode materials per se are the bottlenecks of the industry for years to come!
@@charleslivingston2256 fast charge is more difficult in cylindrical cells often. Since you csn not stack and stacking is reducing the DCIR a lot. But I am waiting to see Tesla (and also my companies) performance using tables design....lets see how much current can also be drawn looking at the mechanical parts (tabs etc.)
The level of detail in your videos is staggering!
Wow, that must have been a lot of work, thank you.
Swimming in battery cells means Powerwalls that are actually affordable :)
To a degree.
They still need to prioritise, matching the type of cell to the application.
Excellent work Jordan!
First class analysis. No one compares.
As usual..Excellent video with details.Thank you for sharing.
As always, great video! I also wonder if Tesla is awaiting for their Austin Cathode plant to be in production before implementing DBE. Maybe there isn't enough supplies to implement at this time into production and this is just a temporary fix.
Since they're still developing the machinery....
Gobsmackingly good and informative and educational- as always, but even moreso this time!
Sandy Munro squared :) Thanks for amazing work, and can't wait for the Munro cell teardown!! Let's go!
🙌🙌🙌
Hard to put my finger on why I didn't enjoy few of your last videos, but this one is great again!
Oh! It's because I haven't been getting as technical in the last few videos. It's all been show and tell and strategy. This is analysis of the technology🤠
@@thelimitingfactor I think you are right. In the recent videos it felt like it was not as dense as before. And in your best videos you were doing freaking awesome job of simplifying complex topics (which were interesting to me too) and editing out all the fluff.
Jordan, When you test the Munro 4680 it's worthwhile factoring in, and mentioning in your video about it, that Munro have discharged the pack to disassemble it. They may have tried to drive it to zero volts, so the cell you get could be a little damaged and may have lower capacity than before.
No, they didn't deep discharge besides what Sandy said. ye of little faith! lol
Technically a fully discharged cell is 2.5 volts. Any lower and there is potential for damage.
Amazing content. Waiting for munro battery teardown patiently :)
A great video, thank you.
Pure quality video!
🤗 JORDAN,WE DEFINITELY ENJOYED THIS VIDEO AND…WE KEENLY LOOK 👀 FORWARD TO YOU GETTING MUNRO BATTERIES AND YOUR UPDATES THEN…WE ALSO WANT TO especially THANK MARTIN AND GORT ,AND ALL YOUR PATRONS 👏👏👏💚💚💚💚
Hopefully soon on the battery! Thanks for the kind words.
@@thelimitingfactor 🤗😎 ALL HONEST COMMENTS 💯😁
Thank you so much for these contents! Cannot watch elsewhere
Here are a few thoughts:
1) Tesla really has to manufacture their own cells. Their stated goal is to continue to grow 50% or more year over year. If their suppliers can only grow at 30%, that is simply not enough.
2) The Tesla Cybertruck and the Tesla Semi require huge amounts of cells. The Cybertruck already has about 2 million presales. A massive capacity to turn them out is clearly needed. I do not know what the real demand is for the Semi, however, once they are proven in real world performance, the demand for them will be huge. With (estimated) battery pack size around 1 MWH, that's a lot of batteries.
3) I suspect that DBE was used on the anode first because it is the more difficult problem to solve. I admit that this is nothing but a guess on my part. It is the way that I would prioritize the research.
Thank-you for this video. It was very informative.
The grid market for storage would assure a multi-year huge market in those areas where pumped storage hydro isn't viable
Thanks, what a great video.
amazing work!
Another amazing video. Love it.
Great quality thank you
Excellent video as always Jordan - packed with great info and explanations! I wonder the approximate production date of the cell Shirley's lab tore down. In Tesla's case, a rapid iteration cycle makes the tear down information become obsolete extremely quickly.
January roughly, and thanks man!
@@thelimitingfactor As always, thanks for the excellent videos - among the very best on Tesla! It would be awesome to have some additional tear downs to track the iterations and hopefully see rapid progress. Tesla keeps us entertained!
Thanks Gort!
We have been waiting for this one!
How does the recording tape and floppy disk industry apply ferrous oxide to the tape substrate, they also applied Chromium Dioxide to make chrome tape, and “metal” tap in the drive to lower noise. Are there any parallels to the process need to make dry battery electrodes?
Awesome video!
Thank you!
Holy crap this is some high quality content 🤩
very useful info
Thanks!
You're most welcome!
The cathode buildings in Berlin and Texas were both delayed for some time and then green-lighted and are clearly being built as quickly as possible. From this we can infer there were significant enough issues to prevent committing to a specific process, but those issues have been resolved. So the question is, did they resolve DBE cathode constraints or give in to build a wet process? If solvent recovery gear is seen being built out it could be telling.
My personal view: Tesla hasn't solved the degradation problem and the fact that they use the anode for it proves it even. What people often forget is that the anode has way more energy density than the cathode. This results in a problem: The system can only store as much energy as it's smallest electrode; the cathode can not hold more energy than the anode is able to give. Therefore, if you have 20% degradation in the anode, it doesn't matter that much since you weren't going to use it anyway. Or in other term: you use a thicker anode than previously.
This is a valuable insight. Thank you. It would be even more valuable, if you could improve your English, to make your descriptions more precise. (Precision is sort of important in engineering).You're welcome.
Another great podcast! When you get the latest cell from Munro and Associates, will Shirley Meng's team do another analysis for you? Or do you have other plans?
Another piece of wisdom!
Thanks
Don’t forget that supplier’s are planning or already making 4680 size batteries
excellent
Watched the first 5 minutes at 1,25x speed.
Back to 1x. :)
LOL!
loverly chemistry - me likeee!
If Tesla can get that many cells I think they will go crazy on Powewalls and home energy storage. It would be nice if they could make systems for Developing Nations and rural communities.
At 10:30 it is encouraging that Tesla has been able to scale production of the electrode with the chemistry problem. Solving the mechanical problem at 13:20 for the cathode will require changes to the design of the machine. Machines take time to design, test and manufacture. From your analysis it sounds like the chemistry of the DBE process works, so it seems likely that the dry process will replace the wet slurry in the foreseeable future. I would have been more worried if the difficult chemistry was still not in large scale production after so many years of research by Maxwell.
Amen!
Q: What of LFP-M, batteries in house? Seems at least 1/2 total auto w/be filled w/LFPs. Why not make them inhouse, and for storage?
I agree
Hi Gordon, loving your explanation like these. Do you know about construction of the battery cathode factory is made wet process because of their long building ?
That building doesn't produce electrodes, it produces the dry cathode powder that's mixed which then gets applied to create the electrode.
@@thelimitingfactor Of course at the moment its not producing, only a frame but planned for DBE definitly and not conventional wet process?
your videos ROCK!
Maybe you said it & I missed it. Compression fills gaps, stabilizing material density, stabilizing performance.
WATCHING AGAIN 😁
Love it. 😎🤙
Your videos are always well researched and presented. However, in this video that is specifically about DBE, you talk about environmental benefits of DBE without mentioning the environmental drawbacks of the PTFE/Teflon used (see Wikipedia article on PTFE). The production of PTFE used to include PFOA/PFAS, which are toxic, linked to cancer, and accumulate in the environment. PFOA has been replaced by GenX, but this is also an organofluorine that appears to be just as risky as PFOA. In addition, heating PTFE above a certain temperature emits these compounds in gaseous form (which is why Teflon pans should never be overheated). This would seemingly make recycling 4680 packs in an environmental way challenging. Anyway, I think the risks of PTFE should have been mentioned.
Thank you very much for all your input an information that you put out. I am sorry that I am not in a position to contribute to your work on providing us with all this detail, I am 81 an a sheep farmer an my income is low,. All the very best, MICHAEL.
🤜🤛🤠 Thanks for thde kind words Michael!
Danke!
Bitte!
28:40 what to do with that many batteries? Power pack, Mega pack !
Failure is success
Dry cell batteries were common in the 1800’s. What is new, was sometimes old!
These are wet cell formed with a dry process 😉
WOW
Thanks for great and educational video. For sure Tesla overtake not only legacy auto maker, but also legacy battery cell manufacturers pretty soon.
Excess cells will be to Powerwall / Static packs, Elon said last year that they were aiming for 1m PW2 (maybe PW3) per year so 13.5GWh. I'm hearing that new PW2 (3?) or at least new PW2 production in volume is very imminent
Hi Jordon, great video. I heard that there is a company called store dot that is also doing 4680 form factor and is more advanced than Tesla. I do not know if it is true. Do you provide any information on that?
Yeah, seemed like a gimmick to me. If it's not, it's a good sign for both companies.. Anyone can put their chemistry in a 4680 form factor, and they are because Tesla is the biggest customer. Storedot seems promising, but there are a lot of promising battery start ups out there.
@@thelimitingfactor I would like elon to solve this but I am not sure why the charging for Tesla is set within 30 mins. I believe longevity of the battery is also a trade off.
What was the update on the 4680 battery? Still wet on cathode side?
Tesla advised people that it's dry coating on the cathode now. But we still need a tear down of one of the new cells
Sounds like Tesla is having their issues with this as per reports. So that new battery line at the California plant might be for the wet process for the 4680's as an insurance policy. They should have began with the tried and true process with the 4680s first, then progressed to the dry coating.
This is why investing in TSLA could be worthwhile.
Not advice. Just a statement.
Yes, if they can master a DBE process...its like printing money making those cells
Worst case scenario, they just use LFP for all cars. Might be easier to scale considering all the people working on it, and the huge availability of iron. Range would suffer though.
감사합니다.
🤜🤛🔥