#3 Tesla's 4680 Tabless Electrode Cell Design // Deep Dive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- This video is a Deep Dive into Tesla's 4680 Tabless Electrode cell design. How did Tesla squeeze 16% more range out of their cell and reduce cost by 14% through design alone? Today we’re going to look at how Tesla may have arrived at those numbers with a deep dive into their cell design. This is part three of the Lithium Mine to Battery Line series.
Thanks to @bimmer3d and @bywhatmeasure on Twitter for providing me with excellent 3D object files to work with.
High Quality Model of the 4680: www.etsy.com/listing/86730789...
Thanks to Peter Morain of Glacier Design (@marsneedswomen2) for rendering the object files into animations! Contact pmorain@gmail.com for inquiries.
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Timeline
0:00 Introductions and Thanks!
1:15 Cell Diameter Slide
6:12 Supercharger Time Slide
10:02 5x/6x/16% Slide
17:45 Where Cell Design Fits In
#BatteryInvestorDay #NotSellingAShareBefore10000 #BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Always looking forward to these, thanks for the great content!
The man with the machine! I always appreciate watching your channel. That machine is absolute wizardry 🧙♂️
Q
Been on the edge of my seat waiting for your battery day breakdown episodes. Thank you for your efforts, much appreciated
You're most welcome Ken!
Thank you so much
You just made waiting for the train in the cold rain pleasant, thank you!
🤜🤛🔥
I screamed like a little kid when this notification popped up. Thank you Jordan!!!!!!!
Hey no problem! Interview with Gali should be popping in the next day or two as well.
@@thelimitingfactor,
Oh man! This is too good to be true. I liken all my favorite TH-camrs on Tesla to the Knights of the Round. You would be Merlin.
@@magnamic5614 lmao, thanks man. Great compliment.
@@thelimitingfactor
Don't confuse Gali! 😁😁
@@rogerstarkey5390 lol! I try to keep it at a higher level and more hypey level when I speak with him.
Finally someone who understands the supercharging slide properly
I've seen others.
Thank you for the deep dives... You are a great resource of information...and assist me in doing my own research as well...
You're welcome man!
wait what! its the end of the video already!
I’ll admit I’m not a huge science guy. Most of it goes right over my head. Love your videos though and learn just enough to feel smarter! Lol
science used to go over my head until i took the time to understand the words i use. the moment i discovered that it was my vocabulary that was preventing me from understanding. learning became second nature. its so simple its stupid. so stupid that people wont give it a second thought. are you stupid? or do you choose to remain unaware. most people are unaware and stupid people call people that are unaware stupid. can you see the world of social media? lol i know im setting up to submit this thesis as a contender for noble prize.. haha
@@grandmaster-grouch I get what you mean. Most people only want to understand just enough to where they can sound smart. Rather than understanding at a fundamental level.
Home sick in bed today. Fiancee walks in and asks suspiciously "what are you watching?" I reply honestly "porn".
LMAO. Best comment ever
More Detail: "EV Porn!"
Specifically, "Tesla Battery Porn!"
😁🤭
You provide by far the best engineering-minded Tesla content on TH-cam. Keep up the excellent work!
Great to see the quality content. I appreciate all you do Jordan!
I so enjoy your in depth videos! Thank you so much!
I really look forward to your videos! The work you put into them really shows.
You nail it every time, your focus is excellent.
Seeing you post a video always improves my morale. Thanks Jordan. Have a good day.
Great video you are killing it mate!!! I 've never clicked so fast and was rewarded accordingly thank you!
Outstanding work!! Love your content and clear presentation.
Well, I didn't understand a lot of the material, but that gives me a reason to watch it again and again. Love your stuff Jordan! Thanks tons
Could not wait for your video I value the information from you so highly.
Glad to be helpful!
Appreciate your work, informative, interesting and contextualises superbly🖖🏼
Nice work Jordan. Thank you
Always a pleasure to hear more than a general overview.
Just as insightful as always, Thank You Jordan.
Love your videos Jorden! You seem to be about the most informed and most accurate about battery tech on youtube!
I’ll be watching this again tomorrow ! Thanks
Thanks, Jordan! Enjoyed this update on the Tabless Battery, and look forward to your next one on the Factory. Excellent series from the Battery Investor Day presentation. You make it so even a thick head like mine can understand at least an iota of it;-)
Great presentation. The hard work shows.
I super appreciate your content, thanks!
This is so exciting of what the future holds for EVs.
These videos are a cut above the rest when it comes to guessing what's happening with Tesla's batteries. I enjoy Now You Know & Hyperchange but the info here is much more in depth and carefully reached.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for such a detailed, and in depth yet understandable presentation. Confirmed all my generalized, not backed by math, thoughts regarding the changes in battery design and construction. Awesome job!
great content, thank you!
Thanks for the original content not just a rehash. Keep up the great work.
Outstanding video! Just awesome!
Brilliant video. Just goes to show how much is under the surface of the battery day slides, that most people will simply overlook. Very detailed investigation on your part Jordan, well done! We might need to call you the 'battery whisperer' soon!
Exceptional work - truly exceptional A+++ 😊
Your remarks about hollow core diameter and silicon expansion blew my mind! 🤯 Keep the great videos coming!
Very interesting. I find it quite insightful that you're able to deduce that Tesla is optimizing towards cost against all other factors. It makes total sense when you think about it. It really comes into perspective when you realize that Tesla could simply bump the range of the 3/Y to 500 miles overnight simply by tweaking what they're optimizing for. Looks like Elon wasn't lying when he said that he believes that BEVs need 250-300 miles to be viable vehicles and that's what he's now building. Going forward, this tells us that any range increases will be coming from efficiency gains in the car and that chemistry/cell design tweaks will be focused on longevity, cost reduction and speed of manufacture.
True. The cost of Tesla's power-plant (4680 battery / electric motor) is CONSIDERABLY (40%?) below the price of a gasoline / diesel power-plant / transmission.
Also, every improvement in the charge curve, as the cells retain ability to accept high rates across their capacity, reduces the need for extended range (waiting for the "1200 miles in one day" comment🙄)
Online for like a min and so many likes... man your vids are highly anticipated!!!
Always awesome ty
Another good one Jordan!
Thanks Warren!
1) Batteries being structural might mandate thicker walls. It might also limit the diameter to get fine enough honeycomb effect.
2) IIRC charging is now more limited by electro-plating.
3) Some gains may just come from added height volume (remember to deduce fixed wall+safety height), apparently fitted in the same space.
The structural adhesive which surrounds the individual cells will add considerably to their support and strength. Their steel casing can be very strong.
Great insights all around!
It’s nickel plated steel , definitely adds to structural strength to act as a load bearing member.
There is probably a trade-off between stiffness and shear transfer when it comes to the battery casing thickness.
Aww yea! Another deep dive Wednesday! Thx Jordan!
Lol, glad to help get you through the week Nick
Good stuff, thank you
Very excited for this
Just found out last night from your interview with Gali that Drew Baglino follows you. This only confirms one thing to me that i put my money on the right guy. Thanks for your contribution to the cause of educating people like me. BTW excellent video again i was wondering how they had acvhieve a 16% range increase but you did a great job in explaining it. I would like to invite anyone else to support this channelthrough Patreon
nice explanation..thanks
Thanks for the break down!
wait what! its the end of the video already!
LOL
Yeah.. such great work, hearing you emphasize the importance of all these innovations and the speed of production makes the Tesla journey all that more exciting..⚡️🔋🚀🏆✨🚀⚡️🔋👽
I considered myself reasonably knowledgable about battery technology before...I now realise I knew nothing....your excellent channel is correcting this....I love your videos with Gali also...amazing work..keep it up!
gotta smash the like button WOW good stuff all others are pretty much just putting out noise for no reason I AM absolutly greatful. i will probably set up patrion just because of this video worth it!
Waiting for ages !!
this guy goes onto the deep end so we don't need to, bravo.
Already watched this twice. Another goodie!
Thanks Joel!
Super interesting!
Excellent
Never clicked anything so fast
Same for me. IN JORDAN I TRUST
even faster than the larger penis size advertisements? XD jk :)
Fascinating!
I mean this just makes so much sense. Having a bigger width battery is more stuff in, more stuff out - that means, more power and faster charging - faster output and faster input.
According to HPQ Silicon, leaders in silicon research, if battery manufacturers use the silicon particle size of < 150nm the silicon swelling and cracking is resolved. Apparently this has been proven. Cost reduction was the hurdle and HPQ has developed the PUREVAP process to create affordable nano-silicon powder and they may already be working with Tesla on this. We will see as things continue to unfold in this exciting battery space!
Wow! You are PURE genius sir. I think you should package this as a course, textbook etc for university and work place learning. Thank you for making difficult topics easier to understand. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾😘😘
Hey Akin! Thanks for the support!
Hello from a PhD student with research focus on nanomaterial designs for advanced/future Lithium batteries. What I really like about these contents is the speculation/detailed analysis provided. This tremendously helps me expand my perspective.
Hey no problem man! Thanks for stopping by!
Other possible reasons for the can size max might be engineering: if the cells are acting like honeycomb as part of the floor pan then there will be an optimal size. The more pizza like or the more pencil like the less optimal the honeycomb effect.
Wooohoooo part 3!!
I will watch again as I can't get enough 😃
Awesome video once again, as usual I have to watch it more than once to take in as much as I can! I need a neurolink upgrade lol 👍👍
Ha! I think I need one of those as well. Or a clone!
Thanks for the video. You can still do videos on what others are doing in batteries ;)
Why not keep the range as it is now and use less batteries? I don't hear many people complaining about range anxiety in their Tesla. Thank you for all of the time and expertise you put into these videos.
I think they will do it in tiers. Cheapest will be in the 250-300range. Then model 3&y in the 300-350range. Then premium models all well above 400-500miles of range.
Thank you!
Thanks for all the great information 😊 questions, do you think that the new battery design will allow for better cooling so the cars can do this multiple launches 0-60 without risk of overheating, like a Taycan?
good video
Love the technical details. As an engineer, it’s my career disease to look for technical discussions in depth.
Thank you for not speedtalking! Many of my favorite YTrs talk soooo fast that it gets tiring listening to them after a while. Hey, hey... looking at you 😉
Another fascinating video Jordan, any chance you will do a video on Tesla's new Giga press & how its reconfigured for each model?
Great video any luck on the liquid metal battery information hunt
Love the deep dive very good.
There is another improvement with a formula that will figure out each pound reduction is a savings on wear & tear on vehicle parts, tires, & increasing longevity of vehicle.
Efficiency improvements are great because it not only increases range, but it does so in a way that doesn't require more charging, ie, lower cost per mile driven - or less solar capacity installation required to meet your daily requirements. And less strain on the battery as well!
That is what you call deep dive 👍👍
Also, the average radius of curvature is higher in a smaller cell, so the layered material is a greater portion of the volume for a constant layer thickness.
New design looks good
As I said before Battry Day - #1 priority is to produce more batteries and #2 priority is to reduce cost. Combining the two ensures Tesla would keep competition far in the dust in its rear view mirror. All vehicle manufacturers would be fighting on the same battery supply - and even if LG Chem, Panasonic and CATL build new plants, they would be lagging behind Tesla - giving Tesla the oppportunity and time to own the EV market with (#1) more cars (since they have more batteries), (#2) longer range, and finally (#3) at lower cost.
I have been waiting....
Wonderful! Eagerly awaiting the next instalment. Why haven’t Tesla hired you yet?!
Much appreciated ^^ Although it surely be mentioned many times now, I imagine you would be rather successful narrating audiobooks :>
It would be interesting to learn how they will incorporate the battery as a structural component of the vehicle. I'd like to know the type of adhesive they'll use that will withstand the heat and stress. Epoxy is very strong but also brittle. Not all epoxy (most) cannot withstand much heat. What happens when a structural part fails and needs to be put back together? If it's a special type of adhesive it will be a difficult fix. They may compartmentalize the cells into regions perhaps.
Thank you to the video software for the video transition effects. Thank you to Microsoft for the operating system. Thank you to the graphics card makers for their efforts. Thank you to TH-cam for a platform.
Jordan, I’m going to institute a new rule...
From today each one of your videos MUST be at least 25-30 min!!!!
I’m at the end & my HUNGER is at its apex....you can leave me this way.
It’s a punishment!!!!
Great work...I love it!!
LOL, thanks man, that's a great compliment. If I made them longer, then you'd probably need to wait another week for each video. I'm really happy that I have more time to go into these things without a deadline looming, but still trying to get them out every two weeks.
lolol, !
Another fantastic video. Maybe I missed it or its going to be in the next video but did you predict if the new cells can charge faster?
Tesla Si video 😁...upcoming
Gordon I appreciate this series so much. However I remain unconvinced that Tesla is not sandbagging on the benefits of the tabless electrode design impact on charge/discharge rate. I believe it was success on this point that allowed Tesla to pull the trigger on Semi production and not other external factors.
I love that the cell can considerations have many of the same considerations of rocket size.
Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking!
Or maybe the inspiration came from a minibar!!??? 🤭
If there is a fault rate per meter of material that writes off a cell then double the volume and you write off twice as many cells and therefore 4x energy storage.
As cells are cooled at ends and power come from the ends volume to surface area at end would also be a limiting factor.
The power density is up about 10% and energy density is down about 10% in the new 4680 battery cell; but, that's not the most important takeaways. The Model 3's 75 kwh 2170 battery pack weights 1054 pounds with 293 pounds being in the battery case, packaging, and cooling system.
With the new 4680 battery cells, the total battery weight may be about the same as the 2170 battery cells (680 pounds for the 4416 cells in a 75kwh battery), but, the ancillary cooling and packaging weight would be much lower, AND, the battery would become part of the floor support structure, which could save, maybe, 150(?) pounds. This weight savings would help increase the vehicle range..
Where do you get 10% power density increase from, out of interest?
The range increase for the cell and body integration weight savings, is included on Tesla's slide elsewhere, so aren't taken into account here
@@MrVelociraptor75 The 4680 battery volume is 5.5 times the 21700 battery. The Battery Day big-screen showed an increase of 6x power for the new 4680 battery cell. This is 10% greater than the increase from the 5.5x of the 2170 cell.
The weight decrease from the more efficient battery packing will give a lower vehicle weight, which gives more range. Tesla Corp. doesn't tell us what the weight savings is. We have to make an educated guess.
@@artsnow8872 Thank s for the reply.
I wasn't questioning your weight reduction guesses, just saying, that is accounted for under another section, not specifically here (although, I guess less external packaging on the cells would count, as does fewer cells in total. So there IS a weight reduction, but, there's a whole other slide that accounted for that)
Presumably (as I can't see any other metric working), that slide about the battery is comparing each individual cell (4680 vs 2170), so in that comparison, the 4680 actually only consumes the room of 4x 2170s (draw it up, 4x 2170s bundled takes up the same area as 1x 4680).
In essence, (imo) it's really closer to 50% more power (6 times power vs 4 times original cells packed) and close to 20% more energy per physical volume in the module (the volume to energy ratio might be down, but the amount of total energy is up - ie energy density).
There could be lots of reasons for the 5.5x volume increase, but "only" gaining 5x the energy. As Jordan suggested, the large central hole, part of the jelly roll doesn't account for any "active material" of the cell, so is "wasted space" as far as that is concerned (but seemingly has potential other benefits). I also think the top few mm's of the cell are in this category. They're the "tabless" folds. Also, not technically active material.
But, my pedantry aside, I do agree with you. There are MANY great benefits to this whole cell over the existing one. It's amazing how many of those huge advantages have gone over many people's heads (I guess, haters gonna hate)
Hopefully though, more detailed information on these cells comes out. The presentation was a little vague still
@@MrVelociraptor75 The Battery Day figures compared one 4680 cell to one 2170 cell. The figure showed a 6x power increase (NOT 6x power DENSITY increase). Since the volume of one 4680 cell is 5.5 times the volume of the 2170 cell, it's power would increase to 5.5 if the battery contents were the same "stuff"; but, all the changes made to the new cell bring about a 6x times power increase. Tesla doesn't tell us what those changes are, in detail, so, we guess.
Several things would bring about range increase: (1). Reduced resistance within the cell from a shorter path from the active material to the electrode. This reduces the amount of heat produced in the cell. Heat equals energy. (2). Less electrode resistance and, thus, energy loss. (3). Lower battery pack weight, leading to lower vehicle weight. Less weight means less energy needed to move the vehicle.(4). Higher nickel and higher silicon content may have an undisclosed (to us) effect.
Pretty geeky, indeed. Thanks. Batteries packed more densely with less structural support in battery sled, now a structural element, could also reduce weight and increase range.
I love your vids, man. It's full on geek out though. Lot to get my head round this time. What is the core filled with? Electrolyte? How about putting an aluminium core from top to bottom to aid heat dissipation. Obviously it'd need insulating, or I think i'd prefer an insulated torus for the electrode at top of battery with a thermal anchor point at the centre. Would add some mass, but way better thermal management and increased structural strength. Like the Ozzy on EEVBlog too. Never seen him referenced before. Saw something about anode plating being a limit on faster charging (from drew IIRC) with the larger cells, but Tesla's own graphs on charging don't seem to support this.
Sure thing Andy! Nah, I think the core will just be empty space. So little electrolyte goes into these batteries that they actually appear dry.
The limiting factor for charge rates is context dependent. This will be covered in my Tesla Si video.
One can further reduce Tesla 4680 Tesla tabless battery Ohms losses and increase heat dissipation by tapering the electrodes in the battery's axial direction so that each electrode thickness is increased where the currents and heat flow are higher, near the continuous "tab".
The tapers of the cathode and anode rubans are matched so that the thickness of both electrodes and the electrolyte is constant as thus the roll is a cylinder.
The tapper can be straight for ease of manufacturing or nonlinear to minimise RI**2 and maximize heat transfer to the "tab" or end section.
The tab end of each electrode rubans can further be shaped so that as the ruban is winded the ruban tab end makes contact with itself so that no tab bending is required. This creates a solid disk at each end of the roll which again provides low electrical and heat transfer resistance.
The thin side of each electrode ruban may have to be enlarged to form a small wire ( ==O ) to provide mechanical strength to the anode edge and reduce electrical and mechanical stresses in the electrolyte. The thick end will have a matching indentation.
One should further explore the parameter space of electrodes and electrolyte thickness in the axial direction by manufacturing and experimental testing. That may get us to the Million miles battery.
Pay attention to the curled copper flaps of 4680 battery shown on page 4:00 and 4:06. Two, one shown are rolled up electrical contacts intended to press tight against the (+ and -) terminals at the battery casing (as in Tesla’s patent), but is not so in this photo.
Conventional use tabs (ie - welded tabs) and not multi point contact flaps. Why? to avoid chance for electric spark in side the battery when contact pressure (between flaps and terminal) accidentally falls to zero, ie open circuit.
Contact per contact comparison :
Welded tab :
- eliminated spark
- higher electrical and thermal resistance .
Multi-flaps :
- not spark proof (risk to fire / explosion)
- lower electrical and thermal resistance theoretically but practically, as page 4:00.
The main advantage seems to be much less heat and ekectrical.stress to the jellyroll material in general
I agree that the figures Tesla showed seemed to account *only* for mechanical improvements (with those improving basic electrical efficiency..... There's (much) more to come from chemistry.
Next on the list: remove the nickel. It's expensive and supplies aren't limitless.
@@artsnow8872
Jordan's next vid!! 😉 ?
Shhhhhh!
Great video mate, you can see a lot of time went into the analysis and a lot of time went into compressing it into a very coherent 20min video.
Just a question on packing density however. As an internal snapshot of a few cells there is no change to density however wouldn't fitting a parallelogram cell packing shape into a rectangular pack configuration result in more unutilised space at the endgs and thus giving a diminishing (or reducing) range as cell diameter increases? Thus there would be a ratio of cell diameter to pack size that is optimal for packing density? Hope that makes sense.
Thank you for another super insightful video!
I would love to hear your thoughts about battery materials at some point. How quickly do you see Tesla being able to start extracting lithium from Nevada with table salt, like they said at Battery Day for instance? Some people predict significant shortages in the near future, what do you think?
EDIT: Just started watching your Gali interview and you're answering pretty much all my guestions :D
Anyways, it would be cool to get an even more deep dive video into raw materials from you at some point.
...future videos :) See Gali interview from a couple days ago.
Your channel is such a fucking banger, it's too good. Restores faith in humanity compared to popular Science.
P.s hope you remember me when your famous (jkjk).