Important to note that even the conscious decision to minimize planning is outlined by a telos. Subconscious or otherwise, there are a set of devices which facilitates action that plagues all people.
You made a perfect articulation of my personal philosophy! I try to: learn from the past, live in the present, plan for the future and be ready to change your plan when your initial plan begins to fail. The explanation of why most people can not live the way you descube, is because living with constant uncertainty is not a comfortable way to live. It it’s a learned behavior that takes a lot of practice. Our knowledge of the past is very limited, our understanding of the present is always flawed and the future has not happened yet. We live in a physical world that rewards the organisms that can successfully adapt to change. ( survival of the fittest-not the strongest). Change is a constant that is not predictable. To live as if you can successfully predict and/or change the future it’s a dead end evolutionary path to failure.
Im a visual artist and i loved this talk sir. Planning things for me feels like a burden. It feels heavy and draggy. Not a letters and numbers guy i like thinking in images and sounds more than letters and numbers.
There's an interesting fault in the core argument and that is the presumption that a telos must be a structured goal. Because many of the nuances in the argument make sense and are consistent. But the best competing concept is the idea of the "way without way." The purpose might be purposelessness. In reality, you sublet you purpose crafting process to some other degree of purpose, like evolved purposes and some basic cellular purposes. So in this way, we divide conscious purposes from non-conscious or pre-conscious purposes, that is to say, that purpose arises as the basic range of impelled genetic or neurological operations. Within this kind of framework, many of the justifications still work, such as having too structured a conscious purpose denying opportunity, or needing to have little to no plan in order to get opportunity. Even here, being an opportunist is a telos, having the goal of having no goal or of only seizing opportunity. So I feel like the fallacy really reveals a simpler fallacy in -overplanning- or it might be revealing that we over-mine the value of plans and goals. Maybe there are multiple situations, and some are simple enough to be disrupted by having no goals, and some are too complex to be managed by plans which will always fail, and wisdom is knowing how to set the least complex telos, which is sometimes no plan at all.
I wouldn't say this is an idea in conflict with teleology, it is something more like in conflict with inflexibility. The action of mentally changing your plans actually also aims at a perceived good - a new and better telos. We act towards goods. If we didn't have motivating value structures at all we wouldn't be motivated to act. There seems to be a confusion here between formal causes and final causes.
I see this related to order/chaos dichotomy, suppression as a result of excessive orderliness, growth as a result of accepting randomness. Very interesting and valuable insight, though I don’t think it changed my opinions on my interpretation on ethical teleology
"When nothing is for sure, we remain alert - perennially on our toes. It is more exciting not to know which bush the rabbit is hiding behind than to behave as though we know everything.” - Carlos Castaneda. As a composer I know my own mind already - it's far more interesting to let the world in so to speak and adapt to circumstances instead of sticking strictly to my initial ideas. It also has the salutary benefit of helping me generate more art than I would otherwise be capable of. Besides - the process of discovery is fun.
you are contrasting *telos* and *kairos* - the window of opportunity. i love it. i think you can have both, like you can have ethos pathos logos topos simultaneously. i don’t think they are mutually exclusive but you are cautioning against tunnel vision which is always welcome advice.
I love the spirit of this, especially for young people. I think the problem is that we get caught in between. We neither live spontaneously nor think strategically (in regard to the long game). It's more about effecting an immediate result that may or may not move us closer to our goal...be it a conscious or unconscious one. A good analogy is the game of pool. Nobody takes a random shot just to see how the balls will react with each other or where they'll end up. But just the same, there are very few people who look past the current shot. A good player knows how they will sink every remaining ball. And, of course, they learned such by experimenting to see how the balls interact. But in the end, life without spontaneity isn't life at all. That's my philosophy...my religion even. In that regard, I believe we'd do well on vacation together. P.S. As a point of critique, I'd say this isn't your most fleshed out work. It felt almost impromptu...but then again, that may be the point.
I think Daniel Bonevac would agree with you. You should get the feeling how billiard works so you can see pas the current shot. When I was younger I liked to just see how billiard balls move around when you strike them hard and in hindsight I can see that the spontaneous play was important to get better at billiard
Thanks for this video-great topic. Im curious, what if I were to ask this question: ‘Why should I follow Taleb’s theory and avoid strict planning because the future is so opaque?’ If the answer is something like, ‘For my good or the good of those I love in themselves’ then we’re still operating within a teleological framework. If we follow Taleb, what has changed concerns the means to the end, not the end considered in itself. The two initial assumptions about intentions for ends still stand, even if we apply Taleb’s normative theory. Am I misapplying the overall argument? Thank you for your great content and teaching.
The argument here is good but it is against controlled micro management of the moment based on past expectations not against teleology. Allowing oneself to fall toward a telos (a hoped for future state) allows freedom and creativity; it allows chaotic interactions and invention as control is relinquished but a goal is maintained. It is the rollicking action of the burbling stream down the mountainside
great video but unfair of Taleb to pin the blame on teleology when the problem is planning! Well-calibrated virtues should enable good outcomes without (too much) planning
I don't think he's arguing against having dreams. The fallacy is that your life can be back-formed from some future point of your imagining. Also, dreams and desires have a way of changing if we remain open. Oh, and try to write a novel without planning ;)
I think the problem is that our business life perverts our ways of life. "If you aren't productive enough you should meditate or have a clear goal/telos"
Are you asserting that business theory replaced moral philosophy and was adopted to quell various metaphysical doubts in the public consciousness? And, interesting distinction between aiming and what I might call "bulldozing."
First time I respectfully disagree with you Professor. At some point one has to be blind to opportunity - life has too many opportunities. If you never plan, mankind would never have gone to the moon. I know you as an exciting Professor - why? Because it something you've laboured at this one thing till you're good at it. Or maybe I'm wrong. Interesting talk nonetheless. Thanks.
I find this utterly unconvincing. You ask “What will I be doing in five years”? Then you admit that there are perfectly good answers in terms of your research and career, then set those answers aside with no justification for doing so. You go on to say that you didn’t pursue a goal in grad studies, you just “went and learned from interesting people” etc., as if THIS WEREN’T a goal. Throughout all of this you are committing a straw man fallacy by pretending to argue against Aristotle while attributing Aristotle the absurd position that you should have a complete plan for your future. Aristotle believes you should (and de facto do) have an ultimate goal, but this does not leave him with anything like the problems you saddle him with.
You're making a good point-really, a series of good points. Aristotle, Averroes, et al would not be moved by Taleb's objections; their theories are teleological in a more abstract sense. And much of what Taleb says strikes me as a yes/no treatment of things that are properly understood as matters of degree. It might be better to put his points this way. The more long-term your planning and goal-setting, the more you risk prediction failures, changes in your own preferences,, and missed opportunities. The more centralized your planning and goal-setting, the more fragile you become.
@@JPBotero717 The mistake? 18:27 - it is mentioned. I chose to avoid commitment in personal relationships too - in other words, I was a player, rather than a solid, reliable partner.
@@PhiloofAlexandria Oh really? That's cool! I love Slovakian people and their culture! As to why I wouldn't recommend going to Prague - it is beautiful, no doubt about that, and it definitely deserves a visit. But it has also become a tourist trap. For me personally, there are just too many people. Besides, there are other awesome cities and towns in Czechia, which I think should get a little more attention, for example Kroměříž, Olomouc or Kutná Hora.
It can, but only if you have the capacity to cut your losses when your perspective on life changes. Most people are terrible at this and their lives suffer because of it. Better to wait until after age 40 to do your goal-setting.
having a plan makes you an opportunity for others to take, it makes you a leader. So you get power and responsibility. And yes, he's using "fragile" to mean resilient here.
I don't know but it seems more a "Self-help promo" rather than a clever discernment about How Order and Cardinality can merge and be preserve in Chaos .... "Self-help promos" are not something that had become something attractive for my stream of improvised existential explorations ... Self-help promos always ends in a bunch of idiots missing and praising corpses ashes ... Paths to Death, Eternal Oblivion and Dumb Inertia ....
@@PhiloofAlexandria yeah i know what u meant, just one of those things u kno how in baseball they call it the world series but its just the american national competition, noticed that sort of america-centric attitude when i was living in america too. hey maybe its not that deep! i dont care, huge fan of your videos regardless
Everything seems to go bad today but at least there is Daniel Bonevac to brighten up my day. Keep going professor!
Important to note that even the conscious decision to minimize planning is outlined by a telos. Subconscious or otherwise, there are a set of devices which facilitates action that plagues all people.
Dr. Bonevac's diverse publishing record is testament to the fact that he actually lives out these great ideals in practice. Highly inspirational.
You made a perfect articulation of my personal philosophy! I try to: learn from the past, live in the present, plan for the future and be ready to change your plan when your initial plan begins to fail.
The explanation of why most people can not live the way you descube, is because living with constant uncertainty is not a comfortable way to live. It it’s a learned behavior that takes a lot of practice.
Our knowledge of the past is very limited, our understanding of the present is always flawed and the future has not happened yet. We live in a physical world that rewards the organisms that can successfully adapt to change. ( survival of the fittest-not the strongest). Change is a constant that is not predictable. To live as if you can successfully predict and/or change the future it’s a dead end evolutionary path to failure.
Im a visual artist and i loved this talk sir. Planning things for me feels like a burden. It feels heavy and draggy. Not a letters and numbers guy i like thinking in images and sounds more than letters and numbers.
There's an interesting fault in the core argument and that is the presumption that a telos must be a structured goal. Because many of the nuances in the argument make sense and are consistent. But the best competing concept is the idea of the "way without way." The purpose might be purposelessness. In reality, you sublet you purpose crafting process to some other degree of purpose, like evolved purposes and some basic cellular purposes. So in this way, we divide conscious purposes from non-conscious or pre-conscious purposes, that is to say, that purpose arises as the basic range of impelled genetic or neurological operations. Within this kind of framework, many of the justifications still work, such as having too structured a conscious purpose denying opportunity, or needing to have little to no plan in order to get opportunity. Even here, being an opportunist is a telos, having the goal of having no goal or of only seizing opportunity. So I feel like the fallacy really reveals a simpler fallacy in -overplanning- or it might be revealing that we over-mine the value of plans and goals. Maybe there are multiple situations, and some are simple enough to be disrupted by having no goals, and some are too complex to be managed by plans which will always fail, and wisdom is knowing how to set the least complex telos, which is sometimes no plan at all.
I wouldn't say this is an idea in conflict with teleology, it is something more like in conflict with inflexibility. The action of mentally changing your plans actually also aims at a perceived good - a new and better telos. We act towards goods. If we didn't have motivating value structures at all we wouldn't be motivated to act. There seems to be a confusion here between formal causes and final causes.
I LOVE HOW YOU MAKE IDEAS ACCESSIBLE AND DEBATEABLE
I see this related to order/chaos dichotomy, suppression as a result of excessive orderliness, growth as a result of accepting randomness. Very interesting and valuable insight, though I don’t think it changed my opinions on my interpretation on ethical teleology
"When nothing is for sure, we remain alert - perennially on our toes. It is more exciting not to know which bush the rabbit is hiding behind than to behave as though we know everything.” - Carlos Castaneda. As a composer I know my own mind already - it's far more interesting to let the world in so to speak and adapt to circumstances instead of sticking strictly to my initial ideas. It also has the salutary benefit of helping me generate more art than I would otherwise be capable of. Besides - the process of discovery is fun.
He is right, you don't know what you want today is what you will want tomorrow. You'll feelings may change, marriage vows are unwise.
you are contrasting *telos* and *kairos* - the window of opportunity. i love it. i think you can have both, like you can have ethos pathos logos topos simultaneously. i don’t think they are mutually exclusive but you are cautioning against tunnel vision which is always welcome advice.
Thanks for your effort!
Love from India professor!
Ayyy we have desi blood here ❤❤❤ Me too, bruh. Goa 💜
@@aditimascarenhas5608 hello from Bangalore!
Goa's pretty cool
I love the spirit of this, especially for young people. I think the problem is that we get caught in between. We neither live spontaneously nor think strategically (in regard to the long game). It's more about effecting an immediate result that may or may not move us closer to our goal...be it a conscious or unconscious one.
A good analogy is the game of pool. Nobody takes a random shot just to see how the balls will react with each other or where they'll end up. But just the same, there are very few people who look past the current shot. A good player knows how they will sink every remaining ball. And, of course, they learned such by experimenting to see how the balls interact.
But in the end, life without spontaneity isn't life at all. That's my philosophy...my religion even. In that regard, I believe we'd do well on vacation together.
P.S. As a point of critique, I'd say this isn't your most fleshed out work. It felt almost impromptu...but then again, that may be the point.
I think Daniel Bonevac would agree with you. You should get the feeling how billiard works so you can see pas the current shot. When I was younger I liked to just see how billiard balls move around when you strike them hard and in hindsight I can see that the spontaneous play was important to get better at billiard
Do you mean "Try some chaos out of order" ?
Are u existential philosopher (the journey not the goal)?
This was such a great video. Thank you.
You’re welcome! By the way, “Dan the Man” was my moniker when I was a DJ in Philadelphia in the 1970s!
@@PhiloofAlexandria oh that's great!! I never knew that about you, and I've been watching your lectures for years!
Great video - very interesting
Thanks for this video-great topic. Im curious, what if I were to ask this question: ‘Why should I follow Taleb’s theory and avoid strict planning because the future is so opaque?’ If the answer is something like, ‘For my good or the good of those I love in themselves’ then we’re still operating within a teleological framework. If we follow Taleb, what has changed concerns the means to the end, not the end considered in itself. The two initial assumptions about intentions for ends still stand, even if we apply Taleb’s normative theory. Am I misapplying the overall argument? Thank you for your great content and teaching.
The argument here is good but it is against controlled micro management of the moment based on past expectations not against teleology. Allowing oneself to fall toward a telos (a hoped for future state) allows freedom and creativity; it allows chaotic interactions and invention as control is relinquished but a goal is maintained. It is the rollicking action of the burbling stream down the mountainside
This was surprisingly helpful
At 1:33, in the subtitling, "out" should be "ought."
great video but unfair of Taleb to pin the blame on teleology when the problem is planning! Well-calibrated virtues should enable good outcomes without (too much) planning
I don't think he's arguing against having dreams. The fallacy is that your life can be back-formed from some future point of your imagining. Also, dreams and desires have a way of changing if we remain open.
Oh, and try to write a novel without planning ;)
Wise words
I think the problem is that our business life perverts our ways of life. "If you aren't productive enough you should meditate or have a clear goal/telos"
Are you asserting that business theory replaced moral philosophy and was adopted to quell various metaphysical doubts in the public consciousness? And, interesting distinction between aiming and what I might call "bulldozing."
Didn't expect you to see be a Steelers fan. You must be tickled pink this year
Would it be right to assume this video is an argument for fatalism?
First time I respectfully disagree with you Professor. At some point one has to be blind to opportunity - life has too many opportunities. If you never plan, mankind would never have gone to the moon. I know you as an exciting Professor - why? Because it something you've laboured at this one thing till you're good at it. Or maybe I'm wrong. Interesting talk nonetheless. Thanks.
Planning also makes you waste energy preparing for scenarios that never arrive.
Is not "idling about" and "looking for interesting things" still an intention, purpose; teleology?
I find this utterly unconvincing. You ask “What will I be doing in five years”? Then you admit that there are perfectly good answers in terms of your research and career, then set those answers aside with no justification for doing so. You go on to say that you didn’t pursue a goal in grad studies, you just “went and learned from interesting people” etc., as if THIS WEREN’T a goal. Throughout all of this you are committing a straw man fallacy by pretending to argue against Aristotle while attributing Aristotle the absurd position that you should have a complete plan for your future. Aristotle believes you should (and de facto do) have an ultimate goal, but this does not leave him with anything like the problems you saddle him with.
You're making a good point-really, a series of good points. Aristotle, Averroes, et al would not be moved by Taleb's objections; their theories are teleological in a more abstract sense. And much of what Taleb says strikes me as a yes/no treatment of things that are properly understood as matters of degree. It might be better to put his points this way. The more long-term your planning and goal-setting, the more you risk prediction failures, changes in your own preferences,, and missed opportunities. The more centralized your planning and goal-setting, the more fragile you become.
Chaos theory in a mathematical world.
I embraced this philosophy from 18 to 38 - but I did make the Camus mistake...
What is it?
@@JPBotero717 The mistake? 18:27 - it is mentioned. I chose to avoid commitment in personal relationships too - in other words, I was a player, rather than a solid, reliable partner.
I wouldn't recommend going to Prague, even though I live only about 65 km (40.4 miles) away :-D
:o Why?
(I'm part Slovak, by the way.)
@@PhiloofAlexandria Oh really? That's cool! I love Slovakian people and their culture!
As to why I wouldn't recommend going to Prague - it is beautiful, no doubt about that, and it definitely deserves a visit. But it has also become a tourist trap. For me personally, there are just too many people. Besides, there are other awesome cities and towns in Czechia, which I think should get a little more attention, for example Kroměříž, Olomouc or Kutná Hora.
👏🏽 "Make Your Life • Don’t Let This Life Make You.
To Be Willing is to Be Able ... To Be Well is to appreciate lived Will."
☝🏽@ext.clips✨
having a plan makes you resilient in the face of misfortune rather than fragile
It can, but only if you have the capacity to cut your losses when your perspective on life changes. Most people are terrible at this and their lives suffer because of it. Better to wait until after age 40 to do your goal-setting.
having a plan makes you an opportunity for others to take, it makes you a leader. So you get power and responsibility. And yes, he's using "fragile" to mean resilient here.
Curiosity
This is NOT what I understand teleology to be. Not so much "planning" than purpose of function.
I found Aristotle's ancient philosophy of teleology fascinating and not at all mundane. That much, for me at least, is not a fallacy.
I sense some Jungianism
I don't know but it seems more a "Self-help promo" rather than a clever discernment about How Order and Cardinality can merge and be preserve in Chaos ....
"Self-help promos" are not something that had become something attractive for my stream of improvised existential explorations ... Self-help promos always ends in a bunch of idiots missing and praising corpses ashes ... Paths to Death, Eternal Oblivion and Dumb Inertia ....
FUNNY CAMUS VIGNETTE
13:57 "best football team in the history of civilisation" hahaha you really do think america is the world, i joke man great video
Well, I mean 'American football.'
@@PhiloofAlexandria yeah i know what u meant, just one of those things u kno how in baseball they call it the world series but its just the american national competition, noticed that sort of america-centric attitude when i was living in america too. hey maybe its not that deep! i dont care, huge fan of your videos regardless
Now I have a philosophical reason to be lazy.
Boy. This is stupid stuff. You sound like Searle. Haha.