I really enjoyed this conversation with Daniel. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 2:36 - Lessons about human behavior from WWII 8:19 - System 1 and system 2: thinking fast and slow 15:17 - Deep learning 30:01 - How hard is autonomous driving? 35:59 - Explainability in AI and humans 40:08 - Experiencing self and the remembering self 51:58 - Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl 54:46 - How much of human behavior can we study in the lab? 57:57 - Collaboration 1:01:09 - Replication crisis in psychology 1:09:28 - Disagreements and controversies in psychology 1:13:01 - Test for AGI 1:16:17 - Meaning of life
Hi Lex, i have a wild theorie, whe're i would like to think you about. There are 2 Moments in the dat where you deel to experience reality. During the dat, when you are not sleeping and during the night when you are deeaming. The interesting one ofcourse are dreams. When you dreams, you bever think this is a dreams, you think what you are deeaming is real. It's only after you wake up that you think, and you Remember you're dreams, that you think it's only a dreams, it's not reality. But what if deeaming is more then just trying to recove from a Busy day. What if it's alsof a sort of warning system. I have some mental issues, what causes let's say that im sometimes rational , my old self, but sometimes, emotional , not my old self. I have sometimes, mostly orientee dreams, where i meant and kiss a girlfriend. And the wierd thing is , i then meer her that dat it the following dat/weeks and i light or light not kiss her.Like our conscious/nature Will give us a sneak leek into a possible Future through our dreams. As if 95% of our Future is allready dererminee , but there is still a chance to changer it. Would this be a practical example of hedelbergs u certainty principle/the theory of many world's. Ithe sneak peel actually helper me ones, how to het out of a difficile situation.
I was struck how well informed Daniel Kahneman is about current progress in AI, Chess, and so much more. I want to still be that sharp in 35 years from now.
"I don't know enough of philosophy to answer that." That is the mark a true thinker: someone who knows they don't know and won't proffer half baked ideas as facts. Amazing. 10/10
I was thinking the same thing. How is he getting all these great guests right off the bat? I imagine the MIT cred must help some.... Also, Lex has great questions and interview style. Congrats to Lex on a great podcast with great guests.
"What makes the experiencing self happy and what makes the remembering self happy are different things." this is the most profound thing I have heard in some time. another phenomenal podcast, thank you Lex!
This interview with Daniel Kahneman is THE BEST youtube interview I've ever seen, not just about the topic of AI or philosophy of mind and consciousness, but hands down in terms of being interesting and informative and utterly relevant to my thinking (and scholarly projects at the moment). Thank you, Lex! I applaud your work and efforts with these video interviews.
The most profound line for me was regarding how people no longer need to remember things. This shook me and made a chill run down my spine because my immediate thought was, those in control of the knowledge create the narrative.
I don't understand by your saying"those in control of the knowledge". What I took away was that you don't need the "truth" to make up a fictional narrative.
Clearly you have not read '1984', you should, everyone should: "Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell (1948)
(I’m a nobody to challenge this man but...) I’m not sure it’s right to say that we no longer need to remember facts. Surely knowledge accumulated over a long time is the foundation of wisdom - like the wisdom that Kahneman talks about in following his gut with research. You can’t Google that.
The guests Lex both wants to talk with and is able to get on his show says a lot about the level of depth and intelligence Lex has. What a brilliant guest..I could have listened to this conversation for hours! When Daniel Kahneman said: "What makes the experiencing self happy and the remembering self happy, are 2 different things" What a doorway of thought that subject opens.
I’ve never seen a better selection of guests than you’ve had. The Russian historian you had on changed my appreciation for a whole side of the world. Kahneman changed the world, and you’re changing the world. Do you read ad’s? Yes. Don’t let that make you feel like you’re just some average podcaster or media personality. Truly grateful.
DAMN. Daniel freaking Kahneman, I am so excited for this. His book "thinking fast and slow" took over my life for a solid year, and I still think of these ideas in relation to machine learning. This is my pre-watch comment, thank you in advance!!!
I listened to this interview twice. I felt honored to hear it. Daniel Kahneman’s deeply thought out and carefully nuanced responses to Lex’s questions amazed me. “Thinking, Fast and Slow,” was one of the most life-changing books I ever read. My humble comments: 1. How much of the “fast” thinking is based on evolutionary hardware (which we cannot yet change) and how much of it is based on: a) inputs from the environment, including learning; and b) the habits we create as we live? In short, how can we use the brain we have in a maximized way? 2. As I understood Sartre’s philosophy we choose the meaning of our existence. But which part of us does this? The fast or the slow thinking part? (Bit of Sartre trivia for those who speak French-Sartre and his lover and life-long companion, Simone De Beauvoir, addressed each other with the formal “Vous”). 3. Does AI need memory in the form of a human narrative, that is, a timeless, but sequential, series of events? Is it important to eliminate time from the narrative? 4. What if we had a respected association of statisticians give their mark of approval (like the “UL” certification on electrical appliances) to studies of human behavior or nutrition that news sources wish to publicize before waiting for follow up studies? We have all read news articles about studies that show that some spice or food reduces cancer or some other health risk, or that some behavior makes you more successful in life-and yet the interesting results are sometimes just random and based on small sample size. Respected journalists could at least state that the study meets some basic requirement of statistical significance. Thank you. William L. Ramseyer
I read his book "Thinking, Fast and Slow" a couple of times and took many notes, but I must say watching him explain his thoughts in a different manner and how he arrived to his conclusions is bringing even more depth and wisdom to an already amazing work. Thank you Lex Fridman for your always apt and interesting questions and rigorous preparation in advance to pull out the most value out of your stellar and exemplary guest-list.
Lex is such an amazing interviewer. I'm always impressed by the quality of his questions and the obvious respect these incredibly accomplished guests have for him and his intellect. Top notch.
57:58 wow (- I like how Kahneman blinks affirmingly after each statement). - Lex is asking the best questions, and is always ready to receive more information than was sent. - I just wished it “clicked” more often with his guests. (He also has the best guests, as numerous commentators already mentioned). - I’m so glad to have “found” this channel.
The only thing really missing with the podcast is a better forum to discuss things and connect with people who enjoy this kind of content. Traditionally social media is just such a waste of time to me. I haven't even listened to this podcast yet but I would love to hear what brilliant people who listen to it think about the ideas. I am literally going to take notes on this one. I love Kahneman so much.
I just want to let you know, I really enjoy listening to your podcast. Your questions feel like they come from the desire to learn and know more. Thanks for making this!
Daniel I'm so grateful for your book. Encountering it is one of the luckiest things in my life. I'm looking forward to your new book. I hope you are always in good health. Great episode. Thank you Lex.
Lex, Thank you for these insightful conversations. You are the Terry Gross of AI interviews for depth and quality. Mention of Yoshua Bengio's work was perhaps missed inadvertently while citing those who are trying to solve reasoning tasks with machines. Interestingly Yoshua Bengio started his recent 2019 NeurIPS talk citing the influence of Prof. Kahneman's book on him. In fact Yoshua's view of deep learning as System 1 deep learning and System 2 deep learning is the direct influence of Prof. Kahneman's thinking. There is a difference worth noting in Yann LeCun's approach (who Prof. Kahneman mentioned) and Yoshua Bengio's approach to solve System 2 Deep learning tasks (at least from what we can glean from their recent talks). While both are focussing on self-supervised learning (learning by predicting/reconstructing missing parts of input), Yann LeCunn's approach is for models to learn by predicting what happens next in input space. Yoshua Bengio's approach is to learn by predicting what happens next in an abstract space - not directly in input space. The input space and abstract space maps to what Prof. Kahneman refers to in the middle of your conversation as "experience" (input space) and "memory" (abstract space). Prof. Kahneman even elaborates that our memory of experiences is not a full replay of experience but a compressed version(low dimensional version in ML speak) of it. Yoshua's approach is to make prediction in that abstract space and learn from that. When we see a person let go of a pen - we predict it will fall, not the exact position it will fall. When we plan our trip to a place, we plan not the actual experience of the trip but the salient aspects of it. Making prediction in a low dimensional (System 2 representations) abstract space that is anchored in representations learned from perception (System 1 representations) is based on the assumption that changes in the world can be explained by a few causal variables - making predictions in such a space helps the model learn representations that capture causality, which system 1 Deep learning lacks. If this assumption is true, then predicting what happens in abstract space has the benefit of learning causal variables that are invariant to underlying changes in distribution in the input space. The training objective for predicting in the abstract space leverages off the changes in the underlying input space distribution as the means to learn its representation and its prediction performance serves as a metric to evaluate its learned representations. However, there are challenges to predicting in the abstract low dimensional space - specifically what would the training objective exactly be (Yoshua elaborates this in his 2019 NeurIPS talk). Relevant links Yoshua's Dec 2019 NeurIPS talk - th-cam.com/video/FtUbMG3rlFs/w-d-xo.html Yann LeCun's Dec 2019 talk - th-cam.com/video/A7AnCvYDQrU/w-d-xo.html A practitioner's view that examines the above two approaches in some detail, as well as other plausible approaches to solve System2 tasks - qr.ae/TJZ0d5
I watch Lex occasionally and it’s hilarious TH-cam recommends this to me as I’m about to begin “Thinking Fast and Slow”. Going to listen to this before I read the book I think! Thanks as always Lex!
Such a humble and knowledgeable scientist. He says I don't know or I'm not sure so many times, and yet, he doesn't shy away from having an opinion based on intuition. You can feel his commitment and love towards reason and science. Thanks, Lex!
58:09 Aaawww 😊 One can really see how Mr. Kahneman re-experiences the bliss of the collaboration with Amos Tversky and sees it before his inner eyes. So sweet, I wanna give him a hug 🤗 Thanks for your work. I really appreciated the book 'Thinking Fast and Slow'. Greetings from Germany 😚
Yes, yes ... I saw it, too! His face was suffused with fondness and joy as he remembered the experience of collaborating with Tversky -- and I felt joy watching him remember. So cool.
"When you think about something it looks more important than it really is" "No, I don't think meaning is all that important. Personnaly, in those nazi camps, i'd just give up and die" "Whether you get a good science collaborator is mostly luck" "I've never seen Instagram" "The why [purpose of humanity] is hopeless, really" Kahneman is savage. Those are some heavy-ass hits on ideas of hard work vs luck and meritocracy.
"There was a time when people read books. And you could assume that your friends had read the same books that you had read. So there was a great deal of sharing." Damn, that beats the hell out of twitter and instagram.
Awesome guest again Lex! Always keep the big questions in the interviews; it's inspiring to see the variety of outlooks on life held by the great minds of our time.
At 34:44. and pleased to hear Daniel address the point that Go! or Chess have very specific constraints, while road travel via vehicle, at all ranges of legal allowed speeds (with far greater variations at speeds in excess of legal limits) involves many choices made within similar levels of constraint, but those constraints are not at all absolute, and in fact vehicular control can engage a need for decisions under a far greater variety of conditions or options and constraints.
Conversation with Daniel on AI is a real kick start for a thought process. Lex is a very good person showing a lot of empathy in being a careful listener . I listen to Kahneman and also to Daniel Dannet_ unified theory of information. My interest is in the use of Genetic Algorithms for my area of aviation maintenance and engineering systems and evolve agents _ micro AI . thanks . chris
Very good conversation. A bit short for what Kahneman is qualified to speak about. I would like to hear you question him about biases and heuristics more. And the concept of prospect theory
I think I can see a bit of a proud smirk on your face at the beginning when you say Daniel Kahneman is on the podcast! You earned it if so! Great work lately!
I like to be able to watch episodes over again so i pick up on what i may have missed. I get more out of most and sometimes i am able to see things from more directive perceptions. ❤
Every time I ask myself - who can be the next guest. How Lex can impress us all. Stroustrup, Guido, Knuth,... what can impress me. Aaaaaand - Kahneman!
Nice conversation. Like a good conversation between good friends. As much as I like detailed discussions about specific subjects, this one show the humanity in us, which is much needed. Thanks for sharing 👍🏼
Yes, excellent suggestion. In the meantime I highly recommend: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06qvj98 "‘Just because you passionately believe in it, that doesn't make it a good idea."
This is the first time I've heard of or seen this man, but it is so glaringly obvious I've been missing out on some profound knowledge and perspective. Brilliant.
Fabulous chat and wonderful insights. "On political, religious and climate change, people don't change their mind - and by and large there is very little you can do about it"
You both reasoning about pedestrians was so deep. Sometimes I think it is going to be more likely to put compulsory devices on humans than make a perfect reaction algorithm in vehicules. We may end up making humans "robots" enough to be able to interact efficiently without dying.
I have a pretty successful integration with the youtube algorithm. To the point that quite often it recommends me the content that would fascilitate my exploration of a yet unborn line of thought. I can have an intuition, a vague idea or a dream and the next day I bump into a video that fully expresses that intuition without me even searching. Algorithm obviously doesn't know me, but it is able to match me with people who were at the same spot before me and essentially gives me their collective advice on what would I like. I don't have a mentor in my life so I have a hard time defining novel problems in my personal development and that's where this recommendation system is of great help. There is a lot of noise in recommendations but at the same time a consistent flow of incredible hits.
Lex thank you for having this guest. I bought “thinking, fast and slow” a few years back and loved it. There is so much insight into how the mind works in that book. It seems like it would really help with AI concepts. (I believe I got turned on to it by reading something else by him and Tversky before that.) Daniel is such an interesting guy. Great interview!
Fantastic channel. Bravo Guests I’d be thrilled to see you have a discussion: -Douglas Hofstadter -Robert Sapolsky -George Lakoff -Peter Thiel -Alex “Sandy” Pentland
It was indeed an amazing podcast! It was full of novel ideas. I was fascinated to the fact that Daniel Kahneman’s theories are being used to build AI systems. His book is amazing too. Thanks to Lex for asking very interesting and diverse questions.
Many thanks for this video , Lex. As usual, I am very much excited about the topics discussed. Please do not stop doing this incredible podcast. Good luck for you!
I have yet to read his book. However, I came to the same conclusion myself that we operate on an automatic system much of the time, whereas other times we actually have to produce, thought and build our ideas much like you would architect a building... Definitely have to read his book now. I love this podcast Lex!
I would like to. There are four challenges with this: (1) I have no idea how to find him in Russia. (2) Traveling to Russia is not easy for me, documents-wise. I'm not sure how to do it correctly. (3) I'm not sure how to interview him. I guess I can conduct the interview in Russian, have a translator with me to help iron out language challenges. My Russian is not bad, but conversational not technical, so talking to a mathematician in Russian is tough. (4) How do I release it so that American audiences can appreciate. Subtitles? Plus my commentary in Russian? This is something I think about. We'll see. I'll make it happen.
@steve lopiuk It's the ultimate interview we all crave for! I wonder what Perelman saw when he was digging through God's luggage. Whatever he came across, meant that nothing else mattered.
Love your podcast. I´ve said it before and I´ll say it again, get Hans Moravec and Frank Tipler on the podcast! Other people I can think of: Douglas Hofstadter, Steven Lehar, Thomas Metzinger. Best, Ben
35:50 "How can researchers deal with the intuitions of the public when it comes to AI's limitations and possibilities?" (please excuse the paraphrasing 😊) I think AI researchers need to do a better job at being not just great scientists but also great teachers. 😉 A little over a year ago, I had zero understanding of AI. I was a stay-at-home mom who was trying to re-write old children books and stories I felt deserved to be retold to modern day kids. I was relatively naive and sheltered. When talk about data, algorithms, and all powerful AI systems that affected all areas of our lives (eg. shopping, movie recommendations, financial opportunities, parole decisions, etc) became prevalent on pretty much any kind of information venue (news, social media, regular in-person conversation, etc), my first feelings were a mix of just a little bit of excitement and a lot of anxiety. I thought AI was an all knowing, unparalleled intelligence that would replace the slow and often flawed human intelligence. As a person who loves to use her brain (flawed and slow as it might be 😁), AI's potential bothered me. I'm not a competitive person so, when it hearing that AI was smarter than me, I didn't try to be smarter than it, I just wanted to make sure I understood its thought processes so I could feel more comfortable trusting its decisions. That's when I started learning about AI. Quickly afterwards, I realized that most stories in the media were hyped. I'm not smarter than the average person, but even with my average brain I realized that we don't have AI: we have brute force pattern matching. AI is not smart. AI is fast. My reaction was a combination of things.: 1. part of me was angry. I wished researchers had been more open about what AI truly was (at that moment in time). 2. part of me was confused: why weren't more of the truly talented and knowledgeable researchers teaching the public about AI/ML/DL? Why did we hear mostly about the hype but very little about the inner workings? 3. part of me was overwhelmed: how in the world could anyone keep up with the amount of information needed to understand the field and the ever growing impact AI will have on our lives? Lastly, 4. part of me was excited: I realized that for the first time in the history of humankind we were (and are) in a position to transcend limits imposed by some of the resources we have historically heavily depended on and which have played a big part in the fabric design of our society (eg. land, food, natural resources). Long story short, my intuition about AI has been recalibrated. 😊As a result, I decided to teach myself data science and AI. I doubt I’ll ever be good enough to discover a breakthrough architecture or algorithm, but I’m confident I’ll be good enough to use data and AI to solve meaningful problems (big or small) . So, to wrap this comment up, my belief is that the public has wrong intuitions about AI because very few experts in the field take the time to teach about it in an accessible and unbiased way. Your channel is one way to get that accessible, unbiased education and I’m very thankful for it. 😊
I am scared and in awe of kahneman. I have only heard stories of john von Neuman being a polyglot who could school experts in different subjects. Kahneman basically taught a few things to lex who is a pretty good researcher in his own right. What a mind.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet and judging by the comments I'm very excited to hear it. I'm subscribing now. Thanks to Rogan's podcast. Great to meet you Lex.
The guests are getting only better. Your interviews with occasional AI touch about intelligence topics is truly unique. Thanks for the fresh ideas to AI community.
I really enjoyed this conversation with Daniel. Here's the outline:
0:00 - Introduction
2:36 - Lessons about human behavior from WWII
8:19 - System 1 and system 2: thinking fast and slow
15:17 - Deep learning
30:01 - How hard is autonomous driving?
35:59 - Explainability in AI and humans
40:08 - Experiencing self and the remembering self
51:58 - Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
54:46 - How much of human behavior can we study in the lab?
57:57 - Collaboration
1:01:09 - Replication crisis in psychology
1:09:28 - Disagreements and controversies in psychology
1:13:01 - Test for AGI
1:16:17 - Meaning of life
Please bring Ellen Langer
Thanks, as always
You are the man 👍
Hi Lex, i have a wild theorie, whe're i would like to think you about. There are 2 Moments in the dat where you deel to experience reality. During the dat, when you are not sleeping and during the night when you are deeaming. The interesting one ofcourse are dreams. When you dreams, you bever think this is a dreams, you think what you are deeaming is real. It's only after you wake up that you think, and you Remember you're dreams, that you think it's only a dreams, it's not reality. But what if deeaming is more then just trying to recove from a Busy day. What if it's alsof a sort of warning system. I have some mental issues, what causes let's say that im sometimes rational , my old self, but sometimes, emotional , not my old self. I have sometimes, mostly orientee dreams, where i meant and kiss a girlfriend. And the wierd thing is , i then meer her that dat it the following dat/weeks and i light or light not kiss her.Like our conscious/nature Will give us a sneak leek into a possible Future through our dreams. As if 95% of our Future is allready dererminee , but there is still a chance to changer it. Would this be a practical example of hedelbergs u certainty principle/the theory of many world's. Ithe sneak peel actually helper me ones, how to het out of a difficile situation.
I loved watching Kahneman"s wheels turning @ 37:07
One of your best interviews, thank you
I was struck how well informed Daniel Kahneman is about current progress in AI, Chess, and so much more. I want to still be that sharp in 35 years from now.
Yeah me too, being a psychologist at his age and had all that knowledge on AI... Cool
You can say the same for Noam Chomsky. He is older than him. He is like Gandalf in real life, Wise and Sharp.
Gotta keep up with what you find interesting. It helps that life is pretty interesting over all.
2?
Not surprising at all since the progress is negligible if any at all.
"I don't know enough of philosophy to answer that." That is the mark a true thinker: someone who knows they don't know and won't proffer half baked ideas as facts. Amazing. 10/10
Listening to this again. Rest in Peace Daniel Kahneman.
Lex, is your expertise in AI or guest recruitment? Damn
Yes.
I was thinking the same thing. How is he getting all these great guests right off the bat? I imagine the MIT cred must help some.... Also, Lex has great questions and interview style. Congrats to Lex on a great podcast with great guests.
Lex is a bit of a hippie, he just doesn't have long hair & always wears a suit ... but philosophically he's not too far off.
@Heath Sims true.
"What makes the experiencing self happy and what makes the remembering self happy are different things." this is the most profound thing I have heard in some time. another phenomenal podcast, thank you Lex!
he was genius to figure all this things out (both with Tversky, don't forget about Tversky, he would get Nobel Prize if he'd be alive :)))
I think there is a complete ted talk of his on this topic itself.
@@PiyushSihag1 better to read his book and some of their journals.
His work is full of mind blowing insights that altered the way I think about human beings.
I am so glad to see that you interviewed this man. His book: Thinking, fast and slow is a gem that everyone should read.
This interview with Daniel Kahneman is THE BEST youtube interview I've ever seen, not just about the topic of AI or philosophy of mind and consciousness, but hands down in terms of being interesting and informative and utterly relevant to my thinking (and scholarly projects at the moment). Thank you, Lex! I applaud your work and efforts with these video interviews.
The most profound line for me was regarding how people no longer need to remember things. This shook me and made a chill run down my spine because my immediate thought was, those in control of the knowledge create the narrative.
Exactly
I don't understand by your saying"those in control of the knowledge". What I took away was that you don't need the "truth" to make up a fictional narrative.
Clearly you have not read '1984', you should, everyone should:
"Who controls the past controls the future:
who controls the present controls the past."
George Orwell (1948)
@Mr. H There's no difference. Either they have something in their direct experience, or they recall a list of symptoms exactly like those on web md
(I’m a nobody to challenge this man but...) I’m not sure it’s right to say that we no longer need to remember facts. Surely knowledge accumulated over a long time is the foundation of wisdom - like the wisdom that Kahneman talks about in following his gut with research. You can’t Google that.
The guests Lex both wants to talk with and is able to get on his show says a lot about the level of depth and intelligence Lex has.
What a brilliant guest..I could have listened to this conversation for hours!
When Daniel Kahneman said: "What makes the experiencing self happy and the remembering self happy, are 2 different things" What a doorway of thought that subject opens.
I’ve never seen a better selection of guests than you’ve had. The Russian historian you had on changed my appreciation for a whole side of the world. Kahneman changed the world, and you’re changing the world. Do you read ad’s? Yes. Don’t let that make you feel like you’re just some average podcaster or media personality. Truly grateful.
Which russian historian are you talking about? I'd like to see it as well :)
@@delinquenz46 Stephen Kotkin. Sorry I never got your reply until just now!
oh my god. Daniel Kahneman is one of my Heros. As a psychology Student this seems extremly interesting for me. Thank u so much for sharing.
DAMN. Daniel freaking Kahneman, I am so excited for this. His book "thinking fast and slow" took over my life for a solid year, and I still think of these ideas in relation to machine learning. This is my pre-watch comment, thank you in advance!!!
I listened to this interview twice. I felt honored to hear it. Daniel Kahneman’s deeply thought out and carefully nuanced responses to Lex’s questions amazed me. “Thinking, Fast and Slow,” was one of the most life-changing books I ever read. My humble comments:
1. How much of the “fast” thinking is based on evolutionary hardware (which we cannot yet change) and how much of it is based on: a) inputs from the environment, including learning; and b) the habits we create as we live? In short, how can we use the brain we have in a maximized way?
2. As I understood Sartre’s philosophy we choose the meaning of our existence. But which part of us does this? The fast or the slow thinking part? (Bit of Sartre trivia for those who speak French-Sartre and his lover and life-long companion, Simone De Beauvoir, addressed each other with the formal “Vous”).
3. Does AI need memory in the form of a human narrative, that is, a timeless, but sequential, series of events? Is it important to eliminate time from the narrative?
4. What if we had a respected association of statisticians give their mark of approval (like the “UL” certification on electrical appliances) to studies of human behavior or nutrition that news sources wish to publicize before waiting for follow up studies? We have all read news articles about studies that show that some spice or food reduces cancer or some other health risk, or that some behavior makes you more successful in life-and yet the interesting results are sometimes just random and based on small sample size. Respected journalists could at least state that the study meets some basic requirement of statistical significance.
Thank you. William L. Ramseyer
“...Because time is all that we have got to live… Time is the currency of life...” Daniel Kahneman 43:01 - 43:07.
Time is an illusion - Einstein
I read his book "Thinking, Fast and Slow" a couple of times and took many notes, but I must say watching him explain his thoughts in a different manner and how he arrived to his conclusions is bringing even more depth and wisdom to an already amazing work.
Thank you Lex Fridman for your always apt and interesting questions and rigorous preparation in advance to pull out the most value out of your stellar and exemplary guest-list.
Lex is such an amazing interviewer. I'm always impressed by the quality of his questions and the obvious respect these incredibly accomplished guests have for him and his intellect. Top notch.
57:58 wow (- I like how Kahneman blinks affirmingly after each statement). - Lex is asking the best questions, and is always ready to receive more information than was sent. - I just wished it “clicked” more often with his guests. (He also has the best guests, as numerous commentators already mentioned). - I’m so glad to have “found” this channel.
The only thing really missing with the podcast is a better forum to discuss things and connect with people who enjoy this kind of content. Traditionally social media is just such a waste of time to me. I haven't even listened to this podcast yet but I would love to hear what brilliant people who listen to it think about the ideas. I am literally going to take notes on this one. I love Kahneman so much.
I just want to let you know, I really enjoy listening to your podcast. Your questions feel like they come from the desire to learn and know more. Thanks for making this!
Im glad to be one of the 100,000 people Lex! Thanks for the fantastic conversation! 👍
Daniel I'm so grateful for your book. Encountering it is one of the luckiest things in my life. I'm looking forward to your new book. I hope you are always in good health.
Great episode. Thank you Lex.
I absolutely loved how humble and grounded Daniel Kahneman is. No big words, no fluff.
Lex, Thank you for these insightful conversations. You are the Terry Gross of AI interviews for depth and quality.
Mention of Yoshua Bengio's work was perhaps missed inadvertently while citing those who are trying to solve reasoning tasks with machines. Interestingly Yoshua Bengio started his recent 2019 NeurIPS talk citing the influence of Prof. Kahneman's book on him. In fact Yoshua's view of deep learning as System 1 deep learning and System 2 deep learning is the direct influence of Prof. Kahneman's thinking.
There is a difference worth noting in Yann LeCun's approach (who Prof. Kahneman mentioned) and Yoshua Bengio's approach to solve System 2 Deep learning tasks (at least from what we can glean from their recent talks).
While both are focussing on self-supervised learning (learning by predicting/reconstructing missing parts of input), Yann LeCunn's approach is for models to learn by predicting what happens next in input space. Yoshua Bengio's approach is to learn by predicting what happens next in an abstract space - not directly in input space. The input space and abstract space maps to what Prof. Kahneman refers to in the middle of your conversation as "experience" (input space) and "memory" (abstract space). Prof. Kahneman even elaborates that our memory of experiences is not a full replay of experience but a compressed version(low dimensional version in ML speak) of it. Yoshua's approach is to make prediction in that abstract space and learn from that. When we see a person let go of a pen - we predict it will fall, not the exact position it will fall. When we plan our trip to a place, we plan not the actual experience of the trip but the salient aspects of it. Making prediction in a low dimensional (System 2 representations) abstract space that is anchored in representations learned from perception (System 1 representations) is based on the assumption that changes in the world can be explained by a few causal variables - making predictions in such a space helps the model learn representations that capture causality, which system 1 Deep learning lacks. If this assumption is true, then predicting what happens in abstract space has the benefit of learning causal variables that are invariant to underlying changes in distribution in the input space. The training objective for predicting in the abstract space leverages off the changes in the underlying input space distribution as the means to learn its representation and its prediction performance serves as a metric to evaluate its learned representations. However, there are challenges to predicting in the abstract low dimensional space - specifically what would the training objective exactly be (Yoshua elaborates this in his 2019 NeurIPS talk).
Relevant links
Yoshua's Dec 2019 NeurIPS talk - th-cam.com/video/FtUbMG3rlFs/w-d-xo.html
Yann LeCun's Dec 2019 talk - th-cam.com/video/A7AnCvYDQrU/w-d-xo.html
A practitioner's view that examines the above two approaches in some detail, as well as other plausible approaches to solve System2 tasks - qr.ae/TJZ0d5
I watch Lex occasionally and it’s hilarious TH-cam recommends this to me as I’m about to begin “Thinking Fast and Slow”. Going to listen to this before I read the book I think!
Thanks as always Lex!
WOW! Great guest I enjoyed his book and the Fast and Slow approach... Hey invite next Robert Sapolsky!
That would be awesome!
@@fatmamahmoud9433 He will probably destroy the illusion of existing intelligence all together.
Between Thinking fast and slow and Sapolsky’s Behave I know everything there is to know in the world
@@farting_donkehy If you really believe that, then you should read those two books again.
@@leedsdrumacademy Pretty sure Matthew Meyers’ comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Such a humble and knowledgeable scientist. He says I don't know or I'm not sure so many times, and yet, he doesn't shy away from having an opinion based on intuition. You can feel his commitment and love towards reason and science. Thanks, Lex!
Loving listening to an elder who has not been infected with social media. Enjoy it while it lasts. Love xxx
58:09 Aaawww 😊 One can really see how Mr. Kahneman re-experiences the bliss of the collaboration with Amos Tversky and sees it before his inner eyes. So sweet, I wanna give him a hug 🤗 Thanks for your work. I really appreciated the book 'Thinking Fast and Slow'. Greetings from Germany 😚
Yes, yes ... I saw it, too! His face was suffused with fondness and joy as he remembered the experience of collaborating with Tversky -- and I felt joy watching him remember. So cool.
@@quackslikeaduck ☺
Just finished watching. Absolutely stunning conversation. Please do another one with him.
Wow. I was always a fan of Daniel Kahneman but this knocks it up a level. Amazing mind.
I found his humbleness to be his key to the light he brought to us all. I’m inspired! Thank you Lex and thank you Daniel
Lex is the AI, just testing humans.
"When you think about something it looks more important than it really is"
"No, I don't think meaning is all that important. Personnaly, in those nazi camps, i'd just give up and die"
"Whether you get a good science collaborator is mostly luck"
"I've never seen Instagram"
"The why [purpose of humanity] is hopeless, really"
Kahneman is savage. Those are some heavy-ass hits on ideas of hard work vs luck and meritocracy.
"There was a time when people read books. And you could assume that your friends had read the same books that you had read. So there was a great deal of sharing."
Damn, that beats the hell out of twitter and instagram.
RIP Kahneman!
Awesome guest again Lex! Always keep the big questions in the interviews; it's inspiring to see the variety of outlooks on life held by the great minds of our time.
Wow Lex, another Major guest. Thank you for all the great content!
When I read professor’s book, I thought what a wise man he was; after this talk, he is not alone!
Now that Lex is posting so much content the rest of youtube just isn't the same anymore. I keep coming back here.
Without looking back, we can't effectively look forward. Profound wisdom . ❤ from 🇨🇦
At 34:44. and pleased to hear Daniel address the point that Go! or Chess have very specific constraints, while road travel via vehicle, at all ranges of legal allowed speeds (with far greater variations at speeds in excess of legal limits) involves many choices made within similar levels of constraint, but those constraints are not at all absolute, and in fact vehicular control can engage a need for decisions under a far greater variety of conditions or options and constraints.
Conversation with Daniel on AI is a real kick start for a thought process. Lex is a very good person showing a lot of empathy in being a careful listener . I listen to Kahneman and also to Daniel Dannet_ unified theory of information. My interest is in the use of Genetic Algorithms for my area of aviation maintenance and engineering systems and evolve agents _ micro AI . thanks . chris
Sorry i pressed like on my own comment by mistake
Very good conversation. A bit short for what Kahneman is qualified to speak about. I would like to hear you question him about biases and heuristics more. And the concept of prospect theory
Hi Lex, as a continuation to Daniel Kahneman it would be cool if you could get Dan Ariely on. Love your interview style!
So so relevant today. What a great man Daniel was. He will be missed. Very missed.
Knocking it out of the ballpark w/ these guests & your interview skills!
I think I can see a bit of a proud smirk on your face at the beginning when you say Daniel Kahneman is on the podcast! You earned it if so! Great work lately!
I hadn't realized how savvy Kahneman is on AI!
He’s a savvy man on a lot of topics!
I like to be able to watch episodes over again so i pick up on what i may have missed. I get more out of most and sometimes i am able to see things from more directive perceptions. ❤
Every time I ask myself - who can be the next guest. How Lex can impress us all. Stroustrup, Guido, Knuth,... what can impress me. Aaaaaand - Kahneman!
Einstein next...
First time to hear your intrrview with Mr. Kehneman. Lots to think about and happy for the pleasant and unhurried conversation.
Lex: Any chance for a podcast with *Carlo Rovelli* on a nature of time and causality?
One of the most captivating podcasts I've ever watched.
Nice conversation. Like a good conversation between good friends. As much as I like detailed discussions about specific subjects, this one show the humanity in us, which is much needed. Thanks for sharing 👍🏼
I would love to hear a conversation between you and Demis Hassabis !
Yes, excellent suggestion.
In the meantime I highly recommend:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06qvj98
"‘Just because you passionately believe in it, that doesn't make it a good idea."
Thanks for having this conversation with a genius like Dr. Daniel Kahneman, really enjoyed it
This is the first time I've heard of or seen this man, but it is so glaringly obvious I've been missing out on some profound knowledge and perspective. Brilliant.
That was great dude -thanks for visiting him and letting him be profound while asking him profound questions.
Fabulous chat and wonderful insights. "On political, religious and climate change, people don't change their mind - and by and large there is very little you can do about it"
Didn't expected him here, watched this episode in one shot 🤟
You both reasoning about pedestrians was so deep. Sometimes I think it is going to be more likely to put compulsory devices on humans than make a perfect reaction algorithm in vehicules. We may end up making humans "robots" enough to be able to interact efficiently without dying.
I have a pretty successful integration with the youtube algorithm. To the point that quite often it recommends me the content that would fascilitate my exploration of a yet unborn line of thought. I can have an intuition, a vague idea or a dream and the next day I bump into a video that fully expresses that intuition without me even searching. Algorithm obviously doesn't know me, but it is able to match me with people who were at the same spot before me and essentially gives me their collective advice on what would I like. I don't have a mentor in my life so I have a hard time defining novel problems in my personal development and that's where this recommendation system is of great help. There is a lot of noise in recommendations but at the same time a consistent flow of incredible hits.
Lex thank you for having this guest. I bought “thinking, fast and slow” a few years back and loved it. There is so much insight into how the mind works in that book. It seems like it would really help with AI concepts. (I believe I got turned on to it by reading something else by him and Tversky before that.) Daniel is such an interesting guy. Great interview!
Fantastic channel. Bravo
Guests I’d be thrilled to see you have a discussion:
-Douglas Hofstadter
-Robert Sapolsky
-George Lakoff
-Peter Thiel
-Alex “Sandy” Pentland
I'm reading his book right now! Thanks for doing this!
It was indeed an amazing podcast! It was full of novel ideas. I was fascinated to the fact that Daniel Kahneman’s theories are being used to build AI systems. His book is amazing too. Thanks to Lex for asking very interesting and diverse questions.
Another great podcast Lex! Any chance you have plans to interview Ben Goertzel of SingularityNET?
Many thanks for this video , Lex. As usual, I am very much excited about the topics discussed. Please do not stop doing this incredible podcast. Good luck for you!
I clicked on this so fast! I just started reading his book a few weeks ago!
Brilliant interview. Some of the very best content on TH-cam. Well done mate.
Lex's podcasts are excellent. Are there any other comparable podcasts? If so, please share.
1. Lex you are killing it man, congrats.. 2. The podcast with Ray Kurzweil might be epic LOL
I have yet to read his book. However, I came to the same conclusion myself that we operate on an automatic system much of the time, whereas other times we actually have to produce, thought and build our ideas much like you would architect a building... Definitely have to read his book now.
I love this podcast Lex!
I do listen to your podcast several times a day. I am feeling more smart
Knowledge is power. This is an educational post.
Grigorij Perelman on Lex podcast, when?
I would like to. There are four challenges with this:
(1) I have no idea how to find him in Russia.
(2) Traveling to Russia is not easy for me, documents-wise. I'm not sure how to do it correctly.
(3) I'm not sure how to interview him. I guess I can conduct the interview in Russian, have a translator with me to help iron out language challenges. My Russian is not bad, but conversational not technical, so talking to a mathematician in Russian is tough.
(4) How do I release it so that American audiences can appreciate. Subtitles? Plus my commentary in Russian?
This is something I think about. We'll see. I'll make it happen.
@Massimo Qualsiasi how come? It's a beautiful country.
@@qazaqtatar He currently resides in Saint Petersburg living with his elderly mother and subsists on cheese and bread. Such a tragic fate.
@steve lopiuk It's the ultimate interview we all crave for! I wonder what Perelman saw when he was digging through God's luggage. Whatever he came across, meant that nothing else mattered.
A quite interesting talk. I couldn't skip a minute.
Plot twist: Lex is a AI robot learning how humans made him
Highly doubt that based on how long Lex takes to put together sentences. He's using system 2 to talk. 😆
I think the section on explainability is great. What is public confidence based on? A story based on a degree of truth that people can accept.
Yet another star on your podcast. Wow! You'd think I'd get used to it but no. Thank you so much for this in advance!
Sharing information like this is not just about being wise, but also being honest and brave!
I love Daniel, I love his work.❤❤❤❤
Love your podcast. I´ve said it before and I´ll say it again, get Hans Moravec and Frank Tipler on the podcast! Other people I can think of: Douglas Hofstadter, Steven Lehar, Thomas Metzinger.
Best,
Ben
Thank you Lex and Daniel. It was a pleasure to listen to.
35:50 "How can researchers deal with the intuitions of the public when it comes to AI's limitations and possibilities?" (please excuse the paraphrasing 😊) I think AI researchers need to do a better job at being not just great scientists but also great teachers. 😉
A little over a year ago, I had zero understanding of AI. I was a stay-at-home mom who was trying to re-write old children books and stories I felt deserved to be retold to modern day kids. I was relatively naive and sheltered. When talk about data, algorithms, and all powerful AI systems that affected all areas of our lives (eg. shopping, movie recommendations, financial opportunities, parole decisions, etc) became prevalent on pretty much any kind of information venue (news, social media, regular in-person conversation, etc), my first feelings were a mix of just a little bit of excitement and a lot of anxiety. I thought AI was an all knowing, unparalleled intelligence that would replace the slow and often flawed human intelligence. As a person who loves to use her brain (flawed and slow as it might be 😁), AI's potential bothered me. I'm not a competitive person so, when it hearing that AI was smarter than me, I didn't try to be smarter than it, I just wanted to make sure I understood its thought processes so I could feel more comfortable trusting its decisions.
That's when I started learning about AI. Quickly afterwards, I realized that most stories in the media were hyped. I'm not smarter than the average person, but even with my average brain I realized that we don't have AI: we have brute force pattern matching. AI is not smart. AI is fast.
My reaction was a combination of things.:
1. part of me was angry. I wished researchers had been more open about what AI truly was (at that moment in time).
2. part of me was confused: why weren't more of the truly talented and knowledgeable researchers teaching the public about AI/ML/DL? Why did we hear mostly about the hype but very little about the inner workings?
3. part of me was overwhelmed: how in the world could anyone keep up with the amount of information needed to understand the field and the ever growing impact AI will have on our lives? Lastly,
4. part of me was excited: I realized that for the first time in the history of humankind we were (and are) in a position to transcend limits imposed by some of the resources we have historically heavily depended on and which have played a big part in the fabric design of our society (eg. land, food, natural resources).
Long story short, my intuition about AI has been recalibrated. 😊As a result, I decided to teach myself data science and AI. I doubt I’ll ever be good enough to discover a breakthrough architecture or algorithm, but I’m confident I’ll be good enough to use data and AI to solve meaningful problems (big or small) .
So, to wrap this comment up, my belief is that the public has wrong intuitions about AI because very few experts in the field take the time to teach about it in an accessible and unbiased way.
Your channel is one way to get that accessible, unbiased education and I’m very thankful for it. 😊
Really well put, thank you for that and for the kind words 🙏
Thank you Bianca. Your message is exciting. Good wishes!
Damn I wish I have mind this clear at 85. This dude is awesome.
On 27th March 2024 we, humanity, lost this extremely talented and knowledgeable gem.
This might be the greatest podcast ever
Thank you so much for these interviews. They are insanely intriguing and curiosity driving particularly in the format they are given.
Kahneman is definitely Nassim Taleb's idol. You both have the same hand gesture. :D
A very thoughtful conversation and contains a lot of lessons
Lex, I've been watching this video repeatedly as if I'm trying to memorise every word DK says.
Out of curiousity, why would you be doing that, Ad?
You pick the best people.
I wanted to like this video three times. This should be shown to every child in school.
I am scared and in awe of kahneman. I have only heard stories of john von Neuman being a polyglot who could school experts in different subjects. Kahneman basically taught a few things to lex who is a pretty good researcher in his own right. What a mind.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet and judging by the comments I'm very excited to hear it. I'm subscribing now. Thanks to Rogan's podcast. Great to meet you Lex.
A stupendously good contribution to The Great Conversation as usual Lex. Superb.
Another incredible episode. Thank you! I would love to see Bryan Johnson, founder of Kernel on this podcast.
This is just too good. Lex has mastered recommendation system, unlike youtube. Just thinking about behavioural economics.
The guests are getting only better. Your interviews with occasional AI touch about intelligence topics is truly unique. Thanks for the fresh ideas to AI community.