Hi Hiram - I love your videos. The issue for me is not boil time speed, but being able to get some control of the heat output to enable simmering etc. Reviewers always ignore this excepting when a stove comes with a control knob - and even then it is often ignored. Cheers
Hiram , an observation others may have not detected , it works so much more efficient with the X stand inverted , and it roars satisfyingly as the water speeds to a boil , awesome bit of kit .
Hiram, I've watched a number of your videos, thanks for what you do. I think the result has a pretty simple explanation - there's just less oxygen reaching the combustion area. Despite all the holes they put in the cross-stand, it blocks air flow. Lower temperature, longer burn time.
Hiram, Just noticed your back! Thanks for all your work and keeping "cabin fever" at bay in the off season with your vids. Just joined up to make comments but have been A BIG fan of your vids for some time. I'm curious about this burner for say a 475ml Toaks or Stanley Camp pot size base cup using an Evernew cross stand, upside down of course. Boil test may or may not be interesting to anyone but it would be interesting what the flame pattern is on a "small" cup diameter. I believe it would work fine on a 550ml/GSI or the 750ml cups as my Trangia or Evernew Ti burner does. Please consider this, or similar for your next test. Thanks!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the hottest part of the flame was the top of the blue flame (without any object on top). Therefore, sitting a pot lower or higher relative to that point would reduce boiling time.
It's been said many times in previous comments, but simply flip the cross stand upside down gives a sweet spot 1" gap and the fastest boil times. The notches on the cross stand grab the burner edge and prevent the stand from moving/sliding. The position shown on the video is my 'simmer' mode, that burns 1min/ml at a slow boil (I use narrow Nalgene nesting pot/cups).
A few years on but going to try this in a couple days. Hope the notched method works on the Toaks as I’m looking to lighten the cook load with an alcohol stove setup.
I wonder what would be the results if you use this Cross Stand upside down. from one hand it will give that 1" PBBP but from the other hand it might interfere with the air flow.... over all, this burner looks great. Thank you for all of your tests :)
Good demonstration. The small bottom pots that require something like a cross stand would probably give acceptable results. Also it blooms quick so that's shortening total time too.
Boy, you test everything. Not sure why people would doubt you. You profit from none of your results. Kinda crazy though. Thanks for all you do. Too bad alcolol stoves are banned during fire season.
Doing a few back of the napkin cyphers gives some interesting results: Tests #1 & #2 both put out over 800 W, but test #2 was thermally more efficient at 58% vs 47%. Both #3 & #4 had greatly reduced heat outputs (560 W & 530 W respectively) but were also both very fuel efficient at 58% and 57%! So changing the TBBP not only affects heat transfer from stove to pot, but also the AMOUNT of heat generated and fuel consumed by the stove. Test #1 required 20 ml of fuel to boil 2 cups, while #2, #3 and #4 used only around 16 ml to do the same work. More efficient, less fuel, more happy!
Hiram looked as if the cross stand was working like a heat sync. Why not take a piece of hardware cloth and alternate a leg inside after a leg outside the stove to hold the pot 1/2 inch above the stove. I bet you would get a faster boil time.
Believe we're missing the more important variable - burner height above ground. By raising the burner in test-2, air was most efficiently fed to the system. More air = hotter (and more efficient?) burn? Couple other thoughts: 1) Yes, blue flames are an indication of efficient and hot burn, but any yellow flames on top of the blue also indicate unburnt fuel and inefficient burn (cooler and soot). 2) Needing a pot-cozy anyway, mine is titanium around 1/8" ceramic (2,200°) cloth. By sliding the flame-proof cozy down 1/2", forming a lip, it captures and holds burner heat and guides that heat close to pot-sides. (more...) This is similar to Jet-boil's thermal-capture system surrounding their pots, except much lighter and more thermal capture. It makes sense the primary variable is airflow, not pot-burner distance. And burner height above ground is more important than pot-burner distance. As long as the pot isn't so close as to interfere with complete burn nor so far to allow heat to escape, pot-burner distance should be a secondary effect to airflow (burner-to-ground distance)? Caldera focusses primarily on airflow, for example. Evernew DX too. Both raise the burner off the ground for better airflow and more efficient burn.
Good point about it being a stove only when there’s a topper on it to hold a pot. I’m curious about how the thermometer senses the temperature. Is it just by proximity to your water pot? Is there a probe somewhere and I just didn’t see it? Also, does a burner such as this use some special kind of alcohol or can one just use isopropyl rubbing alcohol? If it requires a special fuel, is that fuel easily obtainable, and is it inexpensive?
Really no clue why Toaks insists on calling it a stove. As mentioned in the video, it's clearly a burner. One sold without a pot stand of any kind. I own a lot of Toaks products. Love every one I own. I don't own their siphon "stove."
Thanks for all the testing that you're doing. A question; would a wind screen that completely wraps around the pot make it more efficient what with the heat hitting not only the bottom of the pot but also the sides. Wouldn't this make it faster to boil or maybe even use less fuel to boil? Not sure how you would "film" this with the screen but it might be interesting to test.
With the cross stand, I believe you can get a better cooking time if you let the cross stand heat up before you set the pot on it. The pot is drawing heat so rapidly that the fuel is not heating up as quickly as it would without contact. Let the cross stand heat up 30 seconds or so before setting the pot on the stove and cooking time will speed up. For boiling water flip the cross stand.
I’ve read warnings about using methanol (or “Heet”) because it’s toxic. The warnings even include not allowing it to get on your skin. (By contrast, isopropyl alcohol, which doesn’t work nearly as well as methanol, is non-toxic on skin, and is of course used as “rubbing alcohol.”) My question is, once methanol has been either burned away or evaporated away, does anything toxic remain behind? Is there any sort of residue remaining in the burner that is harmful it touched by bare skin?
No. Loads of people use Heet and similar products, and while it’s toxic to ingest, avoid vapors from it as best as you can and a drop or two here or there doesn’t do any damage. I’d say come up with a method that works for consistently pouring in a safe environment, and you’ll be fine. Also, ISO will leave a residue soot on your pot that requires cleaning. Heet does not.
I have two atm and both ate shit. No way near what urs fire. Flames blow to the centre and not even upwards. Looks like toaks give a shit and just puts out what ever comes out of the machine. Shame.
Hi Hiram - I love your videos. The issue for me is not boil time speed, but being able to get some control of the heat output to enable simmering etc. Reviewers always ignore this excepting when a stove comes with a control knob - and even then it is often ignored. Cheers
Hiram , an observation others may have not detected , it works so much more efficient with the X stand inverted , and it roars satisfyingly as the water speeds to a boil , awesome bit of kit .
mac man Going to try it when I get home.
Hiram, I've watched a number of your videos, thanks for what you do. I think the result has a pretty simple explanation - there's just less oxygen reaching the combustion area. Despite all the holes they put in the cross-stand, it blocks air flow. Lower temperature, longer burn time.
Hiram, Just noticed your back! Thanks for all your work and keeping "cabin fever" at bay in the off season with your vids. Just joined up to make comments but have been A BIG fan of your vids for some time. I'm curious about this burner for say a 475ml Toaks or Stanley Camp pot size base cup using an Evernew cross stand, upside down of course. Boil test may or may not be interesting to anyone but it would be interesting what the flame pattern is on a "small" cup diameter. I believe it would work fine on a 550ml/GSI or the 750ml cups as my Trangia or Evernew Ti burner does. Please consider this, or similar for your next test. Thanks!
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the hottest part of the flame was the top of the blue flame (without any object on top). Therefore, sitting a pot lower or higher relative to that point would reduce boiling time.
It's been said many times in previous comments, but simply flip the cross stand upside down gives a sweet spot 1" gap and the fastest boil times. The notches on the cross stand grab the burner edge and prevent the stand from moving/sliding. The position shown on the video is my 'simmer' mode, that burns 1min/ml at a slow boil (I use narrow Nalgene nesting pot/cups).
Glad i found this ty !
A few years on but going to try this in a couple days. Hope the notched method works on the Toaks as I’m looking to lighten the cook load with an alcohol stove setup.
H how many of these tests have you done 100 more that makes you the most expert on Y.T. in my way of thinking
I wonder what would be the results if you use this Cross Stand upside down.
from one hand it will give that 1" PBBP but from the other hand it might interfere with the air flow....
over all, this burner looks great.
Thank you for all of your tests :)
Good demonstration. The small bottom pots that require something like a cross stand would probably give acceptable results. Also it blooms quick so that's shortening total time too.
Hiram, the stove market is totally driven by your videos :)
Fabio Spelta btw, what I really like of this solution is that it can hold pots of ANY size. Cool!
Yeah I agree...
Boy, you test everything. Not sure why people would doubt you. You profit from none of your results. Kinda crazy though. Thanks for all you do. Too bad alcolol stoves are banned during fire season.
Nice review, I just received my siphon stove today and will do a review this weekend.👍
I look forward to checking out your review.
Thanks! Its a great way to ajust the fire output
Doing a few back of the napkin cyphers gives some interesting results: Tests #1 & #2 both put out over 800 W, but test #2 was thermally more efficient at 58% vs 47%. Both #3 & #4 had greatly reduced heat outputs (560 W & 530 W respectively) but were also both very fuel efficient at 58% and 57%! So changing the TBBP not only affects heat transfer from stove to pot, but also the AMOUNT of heat generated and fuel consumed by the stove.
Test #1 required 20 ml of fuel to boil 2 cups, while #2, #3 and #4 used only around 16 ml to do the same work. More efficient, less fuel, more happy!
Hiram looked as if the cross stand was working like a heat sync.
Why not take a piece of hardware cloth and alternate a leg inside after a leg outside the stove to hold the pot 1/2 inch above the stove. I bet you would get a faster boil time.
Believe we're missing the more important variable - burner height above ground. By raising the burner in test-2, air was most efficiently fed to the system. More air = hotter (and more efficient?) burn? Couple other thoughts: 1) Yes, blue flames are an indication of efficient and hot burn, but any yellow flames on top of the blue also indicate unburnt fuel and inefficient burn (cooler and soot). 2) Needing a pot-cozy anyway, mine is titanium around 1/8" ceramic (2,200°) cloth. By sliding the flame-proof cozy down 1/2", forming a lip, it captures and holds burner heat and guides that heat close to pot-sides. (more...)
This is similar to Jet-boil's thermal-capture system surrounding their pots, except much lighter and more thermal capture.
It makes sense the primary variable is airflow, not pot-burner distance. And burner height above ground is more important than pot-burner distance. As long as the pot isn't so close as to interfere with complete burn nor so far to allow heat to escape, pot-burner distance should be a secondary effect to airflow (burner-to-ground distance)?
Caldera focusses primarily on airflow, for example. Evernew DX too. Both raise the burner off the ground for better airflow and more efficient burn.
Good point about it being a stove only when there’s a topper on it to hold a pot.
I’m curious about how the thermometer senses the temperature. Is it just by proximity to your water pot? Is there a probe somewhere and I just didn’t see it?
Also, does a burner such as this use some special kind of alcohol or can one just use isopropyl rubbing alcohol? If it requires a special fuel, is that fuel easily obtainable, and is it inexpensive?
Hi Hiram! Can you do a boil test using the Evernew Stove with the DX Stand? Thanks!
Really no clue why Toaks insists on calling it a stove. As mentioned in the video, it's clearly a burner. One sold without a pot stand of any kind. I own a lot of Toaks products. Love every one I own. I don't own their siphon "stove."
Man you make the best reviews.
Thanks for all the testing that you're doing. A question; would a wind screen that completely wraps around the pot make it more efficient what with the heat hitting not only the bottom of the pot but also the sides. Wouldn't this make it faster to boil or maybe even use less fuel to boil? Not sure how you would "film" this with the screen but it might be interesting to test.
Theoreticaly yes, look at Trail Designs Caldera Cone.
With the cross stand, I believe you can get a better cooking time if you let the cross stand heat up before you set the pot on it. The pot is drawing heat so rapidly that the fuel is not heating up as quickly as it would without contact. Let the cross stand heat up 30 seconds or so before setting the pot on the stove and cooking time will speed up. For boiling water flip the cross stand.
Have there been any advancements in stove technology since you last made this? I'm in the market for one. Thanks
How are you adjusting the hight of the cross stand? Using a different one?
I’ve read warnings about using methanol (or “Heet”) because it’s toxic. The warnings even include not allowing it to get on your skin. (By contrast, isopropyl alcohol, which doesn’t work nearly as well as methanol, is non-toxic on skin, and is of course used as “rubbing alcohol.”)
My question is, once methanol has been either burned away or evaporated away, does anything toxic remain behind? Is there any sort of residue remaining in the burner that is harmful it touched by bare skin?
No. Loads of people use Heet and similar products, and while it’s toxic to ingest, avoid vapors from it as best as you can and a drop or two here or there doesn’t do any damage. I’d say come up with a method that works for consistently pouring in a safe environment, and you’ll be fine. Also, ISO will leave a residue soot on your pot that requires cleaning. Heet does not.
Not to kick a dead horse but how about turning the cross stand upside down,maybe filing the notches to fit, dare I say it the stove.
damn you spotted that one too , lol .
Does some have try bottom up to have 2,5cm to see if it's boiling quicker ?
Interesting test
Good test
The Titanium Alcohol Stove Cross Stand does not work, as the pot is too close to the flame when using it.
Hiram, which stove you consider is the best between evernew titanium and the toaks titanium?
thanks!
Well. He dont answers questions huh? 😅 i would wonder too.
All I want to know is should I buy this stove or the evernew ti stove?
Yes!
Screw doubting Timmy's! Don't waste your time with them--they want attention1
I have two atm and both ate shit. No way near what urs fire. Flames blow to the centre and not even upwards. Looks like toaks give a shit and just puts out what ever comes out of the machine.
Shame.
just call it the burner-pot gap, calling it the tbbp is childish as a teenage valley girl