Better Than The Memory Palace? | Deep Dive Into A Scientific Study With Dr. David Reser
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Dozens of people emailed me recently about some news articles stating that an Aboriginal memory technique is better than the Memory Palace.
You know what?
It might just be.
But our knowledge of how and why it might work requires nuanced understanding of what the study actually says - along with as many voices as we can get to help us explore it.
That's why I reached out to Dr. David Reser at Monash University. Here's his profile:
research.monas...
Dr. Reser on Twitter:
/ dreser_neuro
The original study:
journals.plos....
Follow-up interview with Tyson Yunkaporta:
• Aboriginal and Indigen...
From what I can understand, this study is incredibly interesting and bodes very well for future studies and your own application of the aboriginal memory technique. I can only hope more will emerge.
In fact, I'm hoping to follow with a second interview with Tyson Yunkaporta. Until then, here's an existing interview with him about his book Sand Talk:
• Sand Talk: Changing th...
In brief, this study showed that the Aboriginal technique performed better than the Method of Loci after a certain period of time. Tests after longer periods of time had fewer participants, so it feels like the study is less conclusive until further data from future tests arrive.
There are several other factors this conversation brought out that bring nuance to the role of the participants and what their preparedness suggests. I think the role of terminology also comes through and it is an interesting opportunity to think through how and why terms emerge as such.
In all things, the Memory Palace technique for studying and anything else was always just a term. And anything that adds to our knowledge of how to memorize anything better, faster and with great joy should be embraced. I can't wait to learn more about this methodology, see future studies and give some of the ideas a try.
I hope this discussion helps you consider the role of science in discovery, the role of mind in learning and starts you on a deeper journey with all the memory traditions around the world.
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If you like this interview, check out this one with Tyson Yunkaporta next: th-cam.com/video/JCzlgBbv5OY/w-d-xo.html
I'm hoping to follow-up with him myself for a future interview soon.
For another person who knows a great deal about the Aboriginal memory techniques, follow-up with Lynne Kelly. Here's an interview with her about her book "Memory Craft."
th-cam.com/video/jim_csNGV1Q/w-d-xo.html
Excited for this!
Hope to see you in the chat during the premiere!
I'm not sure what your image and associations are with the word fun, but clearly to achieve a really high level at almost anything you need to spend a considerable amount of time on it. If you really like that thing, then the time spent on it is fun. I watched quite a lot of sport climbing (especially bouldering) a few years back and the thing that stands out to me is that every single one of them who are really good at it, absolutely love what they do. So yeah there may be elements of training that require discipline, (and act as a bridge or vehicle to getting there) but on the whole to be really good at something, it has to be fun. Look at it this way 10 thousand hours of doing something you really hate (would all feel like 'work' ) the same 10 thousand hours of doing something you love (would all (or mostly) feel like fun, which of those two is going to get there?
I have knowledge you would want but not about memory lol
When an Australian Aboriginal person needs to learn new information which is not part of the Songline tradition, it is common to construct a story which incorporates aspects of the flora, fauna, and physical geography of the local area. Detailed information, including numerical, spatial, and temporal relationships about the subject areas are built into the narrative, which is rehearsed frequently, allowing rapid and accurate recall of the information. These stories are personal, adaptable, and can be readily constructed or modified to accommodate new information.
Really excited to go through the study!
You've been a great help to me in regards to improving my memory and learning speed.
Happy to have been useful. I think you'll find quite a few gems emerge from our discussion.
Hope to hear your thoughts after you see the interview. :-)
I am so glad that he released this article as open-source. This is so underappreciated but is so helpful.
Agreed. I couldn't find it in search initially, though. I used the university library I have an account with.
As usual I am impressed of the content on your channel... your channel is a real game changer!
Thanks kindly for checking this one out.
Anything you’d like to see covered going forward?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Already the best 🙂
Thanks for your kind words!
I agree that many more people would tackle larger challenges in school, if they understood the power of memory tools and learning methods!
🙏
AMAZING interview! What caught up my attention as a teacher is the different teaching method of each technique: Masterclass vs Immersive Project learning experience. In my humble opinion, the teaching method could be a key factor in the result. Being involved in an "immersive" project learning, where the group shared its experience guided by a tutor, could have enhanced a better recall. As for the narrative, it would be very interesting to know whether the storytelling was chronologically ordered with a plot.
Thanks for checking in and sharing your thoughts.
I'm hoping to learn much more about the teaching itself soon. I also feel I didn't ask David enough about exactly how the method of loci was taught, but hopefully he and I will chat again.
Group 2 participants were given an overview of the Australian Aboriginal memorization technique by an experienced Australian Aboriginal educator, including a short description of how Elders instruct young people, and the elements of place-based narrative, image, and metaphor. To construct a narrative around the butterfly word list (Fig 1A), the instructor walked students around a rock garden located on campus which contained multiple rocks, plants and concrete slabs arranged in the shape of a large, stylized footprint (Fig 1B & 1C). Each list item was incorporated into a narrative related to elements in the rock garden (Fig 1C). The narrative was practiced as students physically walked through the garden with the instructor, and participants were encouraged to visualize walking through the garden during recall. As the participants mentally "walked" the path in the narrative, they were encouraged to approach each feature in the garden and identify the place and its associated butterfly name.
Just wanted to say thanks for your videos. I’m in my 60’s and just now learning a second language, Russian. I’m also working on two Bachelor degrees one in Russian and one in nursing. So, your videos are right on target for me. I subscribed to your channel last week and hope to watch every one of your videos in the next couple weeks.
Thanks kindly for your post. It's great that you're working in these areas - they both sound fantastically exciting.
I'll be honored if the videos on this channel and the memory community at large can help you study and learn with great ease.
Anything in particular interest you in bringing these two realms of interest together?
Thanks kindly for your post. It's great that you're working in these areas - they both sound fantastically exciting.
I'll be honored if the videos on this channel and the memory community at large can help you study and learn with great ease.
Anything in particular interest you in bringing these two realms of interest together?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM yes, I am a psychiatric nurse. For my Doctorate in Nursing I want to go to Russia and see what thing I can learn they do different in psychiatry than we do and hopefully learn things to improve psychiatry in the US.
Wow - that's a fantastic initiative. My compliments on taking that on and many warm wishes for great success. Just shout out if I can support anyway through the many lenses of memory.
So good to see you still studying at that age .... 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Damned I like your self awareness and honest thought process. Very refreshing.
🙏
I like to think of it as two sides of the same coin. Reading and listening to Lynne Kelly expanded my mind on this.
Interesting. What are the sides on the coin you're referring to? Are you referring to what is discussed in the study? :-)
Western grekoroman anglosaxon etc and the preliterate indigenous orality cultures? Pretty sure that’s a good way to put it.
That's the tricky thing. We don't know enough about any of this to fit it onto two sides of one coin.
As I point out in many of my books, for example, there's very clear evidence that something like a method of loci was used in Asian traditions like Buddhism. I haven't tracked it all down yet, but the ancient Sanskrit I'm memorizing now was originally memorized in India using the body for a journey across multiple loci.
So perhaps rather than a coin, we need to be thinking of multi-sided dice.
Does this way of looking at things resonate with you? Will you be able to hang out during the premiere? :-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I’m thinking more lose use sense of mnemonics. Not just memorization. It’s remembering but it’s also making things easier to think about and see in your mind and relate to. Like the use of symbolism/metaphor, story characters and worlds, art and physical artifacts, assigning meaning to physical places and objects. It’s like the “cognitive arts” of different peoples. I realize that’s not the clearest or best explanation. Im the definition of lay person so I’m not the person to talk to. Maybe one day I can learn to do deep dives on this and experiment. It would just be cool to see more content like that. Looking forward to the talk thanks 🙏
I don’t really believe in “lay people,” so rest assured your thoughts are much appreciated.
I think I see what you mean and will reflect on it.
At the end of the day, the major “agenda” on my end is to encourage thinking, analysis and application - thanks so much for being part of the convo that helps make it happen! 🙏🚀🎉
Simonides did not "invent" the memory palace, I'm not sure why this persists in the west. It was a common technique in ancient Greece. The Greeks also used songlines and ritual dance like the aboriginals. A good example is as part of mystery initiation. For example, initiates would walk 17km as part of a procession from Athens of Eleusina for the Eleusinian Mysteries, performing certain acts/dances along the way, singing specific songs, and stopping at several landmarks to mime stories. The Odyssey is essentially a giant songline outlining the journey of the soul among other things. Remember, the Greeks are also indigenous to the Aegean (known as Pelasgians in their more primitive epoch), and are therefore "aboriginals". In my mind the memory palace is simply an evolution of songlines. At the time of Simonides, the songlines remained in use to pass on community knowledge (public or hidden), while the memory palace was used on an individual basis.
Tyson Yunkaporta and I challenge some similar issues here, including the overall notion of “the West”:
th-cam.com/video/R_--IAZz410/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CjJDZatm9kstEvX2
🙏
Good show and guest. Would've like to heard more about practical uses for the aboriginal memory method. The paper doesn't really offer that much beyond stated comparisons with vague details of the actual methods used. It's more of a data comparison than a practical guide for the aboriginal memory method - which should be expected with academic paper - but some concrete examples would've been nice. Dr. Kelly's Memory Craft is much better at giving insights into the actual methods.
Kelly’s The Memory Code is better yet.
Interviewed Tyson Yunkaporta yesterday. He taught the Aboriginal technique in the study and lists a bunch of the techniques. He mentions The Memory Code and you may be surprised by how.
Stay tuned for that - it should be out next week. 🙏
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM, thanks. I read Memory Craft because it was suppose to be dedicated to memory techniques v. Memory Code which is more of a history of the techniques. Should I have read both?
“Should” is a dangerous word to toss around.
But if I put on my Dr. Dogmatic hat, let’s look at it this way:
Is it healthy for this community to put books in “vs.” competition with one another?
No. If a memory master writes a book, this community needs to read it, dialog about it and put the techniques into action.
Notions of “practical application” also need to be put aside.
Memory techniques are only practical after they are pataphysically understood and scientifically explored to create data.
To try to understand them as practical first risks forcing the practicality out of them.
For this reason, everyone “should” also be reading many other memory books that are harder to understand or almost purely historical. This way, the procedure starts working as it “ahould.”
But of course, I try to avoid being Dr. Dogmatic. All things are as they are and shall become what they will become. But incomplete “vs” reading breaks the heart of any real teacher, or so I would hope, even if I do not see it as a “should.”🙏
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM But, Should I read it?
I believe I just answered this question in as fair a manner as possible. It is my best answer to the question.
I think it’s relevant to observe t hat we have been raving about the loci method and yet the aboriginals had something possibly 10s of thousands of years earlier. Think about that: what else do we attribute the origins to, only to find out we were relying on the written word(extremely short timeline ) and ignoring oral traditions?
Indeed!
Have you seen the follow-up with Tyson Yunkaporta?
th-cam.com/video/R_--IAZz410/w-d-xo.html
Ah nice I see much potential in this discussion. Hope this can spark ways of main stream society to learn respect for these groups.
Agreed!
Long time no hear. How have you been?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Doing well myself. refreshing my ideas on memory with a harry Lorain book ( Super power memory).
Nice!
That one's a classic!
Can you give us examples of how the researcher Lynn Kelly employed information in the memory palaces of Stonehenge and the Easter Islands..and how can we employ these shortcomings from the book [The Memory Code..by author and researcher Lynn Kelly]
It's generally best to ask the people who have done this to provide the demonstrates and descriptions.
I'm also aware of no shortcomings in any of Lynne Kelly's books. The only thing that is ever missing from any memory training book or course is the individual reader/learner taking action to experiment with the techniques themselves.
Thus, if you would like to use Stonehenge for a Memory Palace, the direct and perfect path is to follow the instructions on how this kind of mnemonic device is used and apply it to Stonehenge.
Does this way of looking at things help you out?
I think the most important thing is memory. and all neuroscientists should focus on it, If someone can read and doesn't forget what he read without using any technique may be a machine or something will be an essential thing. for example, you can't use memory techniques on emergency surgery or anything that evolved the right action that needs a lot of years to get to this level. all the science anyone can save in their mind will help kill poverty and the growth the humanity. as we can see Ai and machine learning can beat the human brain in a single task for example math or chemistry, human needs at least 20 years to finally complete single science and machines can do it in a day, thanks for the podcast and the effort.
🙏
I'm looking for the summary of this video in the comments. 🙏
I try to summarize things so that you are encouraged to go through the content in depth.
The length to the full study is there as well, and my hope was for this in-depth discussion to provide insight into the nature of the study and its findings.
Plays to aboriginal medicinal-hadn't seen this previously Thanks
Glad you found this one!
Dear , can you give time stamp for the video ?
If someone wants to volunteer to make them, that would be great.
I'm not sure long form conversations lend themselves to time stamping, however. One is almost guaranteed to miss the point of a conversation by skipping around.
This study design was not properly done. The aboriginal method involved an expert whom WALKED them all around in the garden. Whereas the Memory Palace simple asked each participant to recall their childhood home. There were so many fresh bits/bytes of information connected to each location in the garden (the 5 senses, the communal group action). This cannot be considered a valid A - A comparison.
It would be better to allow the students to go back to their houses (parents houses, dorms) and have them walk around it, while they listen to some memory palace user, talk about how to look and focus and connect items. Then this would be a valid comparison.
🙏
I'm really appreciative of this video. I saw an article on this the other day and thought to myself, "Oh crap. I'm working hard on this memory technique and it will be outdated compared to another one soon." Thanks, Anthony!
Thanks, Justin.
Did this conversation help reduce your concern?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Yes, thank you. This interview confirmed many of my original suspicions that this method would be very similar to the memory palace (or whatever term people want to say). Haha.
As I reflected on this interview and skimmed the research study, I had the following thoughts:
1) Dr. Reser does not seem to be a practitioner of these sorts of memory strategies and is unfamiliar with the MMM community. He appeared to have a 10,000 foot view of the strategies (understanding the concept, how it might look in practice, etc.), understanding of cognitive functions, neurological research, and statistics.
This is a relevant observation because if he understood the MMM or had practiced and become successful with The Method of Loci, he would know that we incorporate more than just placing images in locations. I do not want to give away any material that you've taught in the MMM, but making a strong/sticky/magnetic memory involves more than just seeing something in a place. You've talked about it, Nelson Dellis has talked about it, Ron White has talked about it... you get the idea. I think that one of your components, association of "Concept", is particularly similar to what this method utilizes. It's a common type of association among people using mnemonics.
There were a few times that I felt like you guys were speaking past each other (not out of disrespect or anything) because he was speaking in a research-based framework and you were more clinical. I think he says that this method is pretty different from the Memory Palace because he has a very structured view of it based on specific criteria that must be met in order for research to be reliable (too much ambiguity in your testing methods could muddy the water when it comes to analyzing data). I think their idea of a memory palace was very much just a place with images... how else could you teach it so fast? Whereas the MMM and practitioners of memory techniques see this new approach as a memory palace with a narrative layer... a technique to augment the memory palace. Dr. Reser felt that it was important to distinguish between the two, which makes sense from a research standpoint to show the validity of the approach, but in a practical sense, the approach is just more layers of meaning on top of what we already have in location-based mnemonics.
I think we all know that narratives improve recall. It's not a secret. There is a mnemonic technique called the Modified Story Memory Technique that is effective and even used in cognitive rehabilitation/compensation. So sure, if your boss or professor can create a narrative for you and provide you with a memory palace while teaching you material you need to remember, obviously it will help you keep track of information. This is of course more important for people teaching or leading to know, but pretty time-consuming for the layperson who is sitting in a classroom or office and trying to keep up with their boss or teacher. It would take a fair amount of time to create your memory palace and then try to create your own narrative around it. It could be fun, but that time could also be dedicated to the type of rehearsal that you discussed, which could potentially lead to significantly higher outcomes.
As a therapist, I do help construct my patients' memory palaces when we get started so that I know that they are following my instruction correctly and so that I can help them more effectively when there is an error. "Hey, you are a fall risk because of your surgery. Don't twist, bend, or stand. We are going to use the following objects in your current room (here in the skilled nursing facility) as a way to help you remember these three rules so that you don't get hurt before you are healed. On the dresser, I want you to visualize something twisting and breaking. Can you think of anything? Etc..." I'm not going to train someone for 30 minutes and expect them to have a functioning memory palace.
2) This leads me to another point: Memory palaces take time to create and use effectively. In therapy, I try to operate under the AAA approach - Acquire a skill, Apply the skill, then Adapt the skill to your needs. If you think I can just talk to someone for 30 minutes and they will even acquire the skill (let alone apply it effectively), then you are a little too ambitious. There is a time threshold on skill development. If I only had 30 minutes to show a colleague how to remember numbers, I would not show them the PAO system. I would teach them to use the Major System to make quick images out of numbers (i.e., 11 = Dad). If you were to compare a PAO system to a simple Major System within the first several hours, the PAO system would be utterly defeated. But after a while, the PAO system becomes significantly more effective as you see with memory athletes. So too would I expect newbies to struggle with using their childhood bedroom to remember butterfly names as opposed to remembering a story and exploring a novel area that acts as a more structured environment as opposed to recalling a place from a long time ago. I did not see in the study, but did they say anything about how being in a novel location with historical significance (new and interesting place) could have increased attention and recall?
3) I think you did a great job choosing your battles in this interview when it came to sequencing. You were maintaining the relationship with the guest. I know he missed your point that you use a specific type of rehearsal to improve recall, but for a moment he thought you were saying that most people just skip around their memory palace. Obviously, the memory palace is an excellent tool for remembering sequences. Perhaps the study showed superiority in the narrative approach to treatment, but I believe this goes back to the threshold of time needed to learn a technique and also brings into question how far you feel you need to go in order to maintain a sequence. A lot of people have learned to memorize large amounts of information in a specific sequence very fast with a memory palace. Cards are a good example. If it is effective for remember sequences, is there a need to create a narrative on top of your spatial recall in order to better facilitate good sequencing? Maybe! But I would have to see examples with data, such as people with one year of training in the Memory Palace could only recall medical evaluation sequences with 90% whereas people who trained in the new method for a year remembered with 95% or something. Perhaps a year is too long... let's say a month or two (like the summer before medical school begins).
4) Let's say that a benefit to this approach for the aboriginals was that there was a place that you saw every day (or frequently at least) that was where you stored important cultural information. It reminds me of a technique that Nelson Dellis talked about in Remember It! where he threw a pen onto the floor before bedtime if he needed to remember to do something in the morning. Then, when he woke up and saw the pen laying on the floor, it would act as a cue that he needed to do something. It is a similar idea in many ways, I feel.
5) From what I could tell, this was a rather insignificant study. We already know that mnemonics work. We already know that location-based recall works, images work, narratives work, etc. The only thing that SEEMS new here is the sexy idea that there is some ancient recall technique that has never been discovered by modern scientists and is better than everything we already knew! In other words... clickbait. The study looked like a pretty small sample size and was simple enough that an undergraduate could develop this research methodology as long as they had a PhD mentor at their university to help facilitate capturing test subjects. I don't think the authors felt it was significant either, or they would pursue more publications in this area. Dr. Reser seems indifferent. I almost feel like this was an easy study to do and professors must publish or perish, so this was a good side gig to keep publishing.
This may come across as hyper-critical or defensive, but I teach people to improve their cognition for rehabilitation purposes and I am actively training to improve my own cognition for competition, so I feel like I just have a lot to say because this is an area I work in frequently. All due respect to Dr. Reser. I don't think he did anything bad or wrong. I think he gave a great interview (as did you) but when it comes down to the question, "Is this better than the memory palace?" the answer is essentially, "it's just a reminder that you can combine memory techniques to make memories more magnetic." In the long run, this may add to a body of evidence to support memory strategies, but I don't think it is groundbreaking.
Thanks kindly for going deeper on this. You make many solid points.
I hadn't heard of mSMT before. It sounds fascinating and I'll be looking into it.
It sounds like something we could potentially record a conversation about in the future.
The thing that interests me the most is anything that inspires, encourages and assists people to use these techniques. And to that end, I appreciate the conversation so far and hope it can continue. :-)
Interesting talk! Great idea and foresight to speak directly with the researcher!
Really cool to hear some of their preconceived ideas of memory techniques before running an experiment and how that can influence outcomes. I think they would benefit consulting with an accomplished mnemonist for future studies!
In your opinion, what positives do you see coming out of the study?
I haven’t had time to read the paper yet but from your conversation it doesn’t sound like there is much different between the two, other than incorporating the story method? 🤷♂️
I wonder if bridging figures have the same effect and/or offer something better? Like Lynn Kelly’s ancestors or rap scallions?
Cheers Anthony. Always engaging and conscious content from your work that is hugely appreciated!
Sam.
Thanks for this, Sam. Always great to hear from you.
I see many potential positives coming from this. For one thing, it has opened up a lot of discussion. It may even have opened up a way for me to participate in designing or advising on future studies.
At the end of the day, "best" is the technique we use consistently to establish effectiveness with the method so we can work on efficiency and precision.
It looks like I'll be interviewing Tyson Yunkaporta next week about his contribution and just got his book now. I can't wait to get that one out, hopefully by the 15th.
How are things going for you lately? Anything interesting emerging for you from your own practices?
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM
Even though I’m relatively new to the memory tradition, it is great to hear that this work is creating discussions and awareness of these amazing techniques. I couldn’t agree more with having these techniques as standards in the education system. Both university and school. Anyone who uses them sees the benefit way beyond memorising lists...
That would be great! You would make a huge impact. It sounded positive in the interview.
I actually stumbled across his book a few months ago in a bookstore in Hobart! It looked good but my reading list was full. I think I’ll have to make room now!
I’ve been working on using mind maps inserted onto stations (as I’m using those as note taking). And finding memorising single words are having “branches” off them to information related but also of the characters used for the associative imagery. Sometimes they blend together and the information I want comes to mind but also of the art or details of the life of the person I used to help memorise the information. If that makes sense.. and even conversations I’ve had with people where I’ve explained how I’m memorising that information can come up too.
I'm reading Tyson's book now - it's great!
That's interesting about inserting mind maps into stations. I'd love to hear more about that the next time we catch up.
You know, I've been thinking a lot about trying to find a co-host to do a show. Maybe it's something to explore next time we catch up? Decisive could be useful in thinking it through. :-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM I've been WRAPing that idea around in my head and think it's a great idea! I'd love to do something like that in the near future :-)
Hopefully I can get my mouth sorted so we can - excited to listen to the recording you sent over. Much appreciated!
Where do we learn about the techniques we can apply?
I cover them frequently on this channel, and when it comes to specific Aboriginal techniques, Tyson Yunkaporta discussed them on this channel with respect to his latest book. 🙏
I wonder what your thoughts are on long-term memory techniques. Is there a way to memorize something permanently and quickly? Idk if this is the case for everyone but for me after 3 weeks, surface info is gone or filed in the dark matter of my mind. At other times it'll be things that I need but not often that sink into the forgotten abyss (after 2 or 3 months).
- Do I need more intimate associations where I don't typically think I need it?
- Will the memory palace lodge things into more permanent recall?
Now I may recognize them upon crossing paths, but if asked about so and so or a show or whatever... its not immediate recall.
Thanks, Isa.
There might be, but a lot depends on at least three things:
1) The nature of the thing you're memorizing.
2) What you mean by permanently. Is there such a thing as permanence?
3) The level of your skills with learning and memory techniques relative to the other points.
In all things, we all can improve the depth of our associations. KAVE COGS is one of the MMM models for doing this.
The Memory Palace does and can only create more permanent recall that deserves the word permanent when used in conjunction with Recall Rehearsal. For more on this, please see:
th-cam.com/video/8nOwZVQosNg/w-d-xo.html
Finally, I would say that there is no such thing as "immediate recall." There will always be a delay between whatever triggers you to recall something and the processes needed to reformulate and bring the content forward.
But when we take memory studies literally and practice with correct and reasonable goals, many incredible things can happen. But "permanence" is never one of them, even if Spinoza is correct in his information theory.
hey me too face this issue , do you find any solution for this if yes please let me know and thank you
Wonderful, thanks and am sharing. Of great application to Indiginising the Curriculum, as well as enhancing study skills. Regarding the inherent narrative structure for Australian First Nations, I see similarities with the compression expansion method of oral poetics (e.g., Ancient Greece and living oral traditions of Central Europe); there was/is an order that these narratives must go in, similar to a storyline.
Thanks so much for this.
Are there any particular oral poetics you can point us to? I'm not entirely sure I know what this means? Is it in terms of things like the Odyssey having been preserved orally, or something else? :-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Hi again Anthony~ Blimey~ where to start! Yes the Odysseys and Illiads (as there are slightly different forms depending on the city state; to me this is similar to Australian First Nations of the Rainbow Serpent...not always a Serpent either). 'Homer', according to Nagy/Parry-Lord theories, gathered these narratives into the epics as we commonly know of them today.
I highly recommend Prof. Gregory Nagy's book (and Harvard EdX course): The Ancient Hero in 24 Hours
chs.harvard.edu/book/nagy-gregory-the-ancient-greek-hero-in-24-hours/
And the theorist he studied under (Lord)
chs.harvard.edu/book/lord-albert-bates-the-singer-of-tales/
...and the theorist Lord studied under (Parry):
archive.org/details/MilmanParryTheMakingOfHomericVerse1971
@@psychnstatstutor Thanks so much for these resources - much appreciated!
By the way, in case you haven't seen it, here's the follow-up interview with Tyson Yunkaporta:
th-cam.com/video/R_--IAZz410/w-d-xo.html
I'm hoping to have more conversations like these soon! :-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Cheers~ yes, shared this too with my learning and teaching network. Cheers
That's wonderful - thank you so much for supporting this work by sharing and commenting. Much appreciated!
Anything else you would like to see covered on this channel? :-)
hello anthony, where can I find this new method explained in details , I'm really interested in this but could not find any information.
Thanks for asking about this.
Everything is discussed in-depth here:
th-cam.com/video/R_--IAZz410/w-d-xo.html
There are two books mentioned that you'll also want to read.
Enjoy!
Hey, I'm familiar with the memory palace and most other techniques (I have dominic's books), but i have no idea how to train on a daily basis. If i want to dedicate 30-60 minutes to memory training with a focus on conceptual memorization, random words/images, cards, and names/faces (in that order of importance since all I really care about is training to give myself the upper hand in college) how would you suggest i go about doing it?
Thanks for your post.
I'm pretty sure at least one of O'Brien's books has some training suggestions. Which ones do you have?
For my suggestions, please see:
th-cam.com/video/BVLDMZrDJKk/w-d-xo.html
It would seem the aboriginal method is nearly the same as the Greek method. What are the _most important_ differences?
Thanks for your question.
One point many of us are working on illuminating is that the Greek methods are not particularly Greek.
More on this in a follow-up discussion with Dr. Yunkaporta who also worked on the study:
th-cam.com/video/R_--IAZz410/w-d-xo.html
Ultimately, the differences that matter are the ones you discover in your study and practice of the techniques.
This was really interesting.
While there are similarities, I wouldn't say one is "better" than the other, but rather "different".
I think of them as 2 paths, which branch off and eventually come back together.
In any case, it's great to hear and learn about different methods and perspectives from the world of memory. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to incorporate a method or 2 from 1 to the other or vice versa. (Shame they had such a low turnout from the follow up study done much later)
Really all that matters is that both have the same end goal: to help improve ones memory recall.
Thanks for checking this out.
The key differences are important and useful, but “better” remains exclusively in the realm of the techniques you actually use.
After all, how could anything even compete for “better” if an individual isn’t:
A) actively using some version and...
B) constantly evolving that thing with ever-renewed study and practice?
The real problem we face, and might always face without serious educational reform (and even then) is a battle of simplicity versus complexity.
Neither the Memory Palace nor the Aboriginal technique boil down to one “thing.” They are both multiple things coming together to form an elaborate interaction with the target information.
Those who want it to be simple will never have it because the memory function comes from making the target information more elaborate, i.e. more complex.
The riddle is easy to solve: memory techniques work, but only if people put them to work. The "best" tools are the tools you've earned.
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM nailed it 🔥🔥
Wow! Unfortunately, I cannot attend the live show. I've a question (maybe is one of the many questions you have for him). In many articles I read about this research, it is said that the main difference is about the storytelling they use in this aboriginal system. I'm curious to know if they used a proper link system in the memory palace group and what type of storytelling they use. . Thanks Master Anthony.
Thanks for this, Coach.
This premiere won't actually be live - it's the recording playing out live in a way that lets us hang out in the chat.
Your question is good, though, and we are going to follow up hopefully in the near future with Tyson Yunkaporta. I can ask this then.
To be clear, in your own words, what defines you're calling a "proper link system"?
For context, I only use highly personalized systems, and I'm sure none of them are proper... ;-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM Thanks Anthony! Maybe "proper" is not the correct word. I wonder if they were taught a vivid and personalized link of images via pop culture or personal life experience.
We probably didn’t talk enough about exactly how the Method of Loci was taught.
I think once you hear the conversation you’ll be excited by the potential for innovation here. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the convo!
I can't believe something could be better than memory palace out there🧐
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised not only by what the study actually says, but the potential for the future. :-)
It's a hasty conclusion for such a profound issue, and a hasty title for a short period of investigation, I personally think that there's no such thing as a "best memorization technique" they are mental tools for different purposes and we can mix them and create sinergy as well, what it would be a memory palace for learn words without linking or story method and viceversa ? What would be a memory palace for memorize numbers without a major system and viceversa?
Great thoughts.
If there is "best," it's the ones we use.
I think the notion about the link between Memory Palace and the Major is important as well.
After all, there are ways to use a 00-99 itself *as* a Memory Palace. This is why I hope to make clear that at some point the terminology itself dissolves.
That seems like an intresting title
I hope you'll enjoy the discoveries! :-)
Can’t wait to hear the tale of your walk through the dream 😁
Thanks, Daryl. I look forward to your thoughts on the discoveries.
Will you be able to hang out during the premiere?
Sir can we use wardrobe as memory palace...i mean different costumes
Great idea - go for it and please keep us posted on your progress!
@@AnthonyMetivierMMM thank you....
Sir I don't understand the Australian aboriginal technique .so please tell us once again...
Let's wait for the interview with Tyson Yunkaporta. We'll get into it deeply. :-)
@@AnthonyMetivierMMMlooking forward to see it
These are really interesting interviews
Thanks for checking them out and letting me know!
Alex Mullen has a video in which he takes us through his house and leaves 10 words in certain places.
Reminded me of the walk the students took together.
And yes, it wasn't hard to remember the ten words. But then again, it wasn't rock science technology ....
I think that, when you make yourself familiar enough with your memory palace, the result will be the same. Plus .... you can have way more palaces in your mind than places to actually visit again.....
Good try......But I'll stick with the palaces. And nothing stops me from taking a stroll and place words along the litteral way. The more possibilities, the better, I'd say.
Why be competitive ? Do whatever works and be happy for so many sharing spirits, who, after all, share the same goal. Don't we all ?
That is a great video.
I would love to see other kinds of studies run. I might be misunderstanding how science works, but I think there are many ways we could run different kinds of studies that would reveal more insights that guide us going forward.
Psychogeography
Indeed, the Memory Palace technique taps into it deeply.
Aboriginal memory technique is better than the Memory Palace .
study Results
Both types of memory training improved the number of correctly recalled items and reduced the frequency of specific error types relative to untrained performance. The Australian Aboriginal method resulted in approximately a 3-fold greater probability of improvement to accurate recall of the entire word list (odds ratio = 2.82; 95% c.i. = 1.15-6.90), vs. the memory palace technique (odds ratio = 2.03; 95% c.i. = 0.81-5.06) or no training (odds ratio = 1.5; 95% c.i. = 0.54-4.59) among students who did not correctly recall all list items at baseline.
Student responses to learning the Australian Aboriginal memory technique in the context of biomedical science education were overwhelmingly favourable, and students found both the training and the technique enjoyable, interesting, and more useful than rote memorization.
Our data indicate that this method has genuine utility and efficacy for study of biomedical sciences and in the foundation years of medical training.
Interestingly, students trained on the Australian Aboriginal technique exhibited significantly fewer errors of sequence recall than those without training or those taught the memory palace technique (Fig 2B). It is worth noting that no instructions were provided to the participants with respect to sequence, yet this measure exhibited the largest effect size of any of the parameters measured (memory palace: Q = 15.4, df = 2, p = 0.0005, KW = 0.31; Australian Aboriginal method: Q = 32.7, df = 2, p = 0.00000008, KW = 0.65; untrained recall: Q = 0.18, df = 2, p = 0.9, ns).