Ok so let's break some things down. A. This is not the Heiho Kadensho which was written by Yagyu Munenori 1632. It is in point of fact the Heiho e-Mokuroku drawn (no words) by his father Yagyu Sekishusai around 1604 which he gave to a friend who was the famous Noh actor Ujikatsu. It was not until over 100 years later that Ujikatsu's descendants asked a Shinkage Ryu master named Matsudaira to write the descriptions. Which he did but how much detail and 100% correct movements would he describe to non Yagyu Deshi? Both the Heiho Kadensho and Heiho e-Mokuroku are translated in both translations B. At the end of each passage it clearly says "Kuden" meaning there is more to it then this. I mean what do we think Edojidai Densho especially ones written for non members or the public were for? Like an old 1930's paper boy yelling "SHINKAGE RYU HERE, GET YA SHINKAGE RYU HERE"? C. Now I can only guess that Ms.Mieko is part of the Kuroda Han Yagyu Shinkage Ryu down in Kyushu. I am unfamiliar with their Mokuroku so I can not comment on this but the Heiho Emokuroku starts at the very first Kata set called the Sangaku, up through the Kuka and higher. The Kata names though some Shinkage Ryu branches have some variants are fairly consistent. D. The main line of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is the Owari and I do not train with them but do have a large portion of their Mokuroku to at least compare the names and they match up which are identical to the Heiho e-Mokuroku. E. As a Deshi of the Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu I can say with out a doubt the names are identical and match up. Not only that the movements described in the 1707 script are similar to what we practice today. But missing from the 1707 script are vital details, Kuden, and Ura Kata...
Hello Jason. Some good info. The thing i am saying is that each branch has different versions at times, and that each branch says that their version is the true one, the simple fact is not everyone can be correct and always people say that their branch is correct others changed, which can not be the case because someone has to have changed.
Jason Schwemmer Once this video popped on my feed, I instantly knew I would find a comment from you here 😂. Can’t wait to get back on the mat after all this craziness is over
I train under the Otsubo branch, which branched out relatively recently ftom the Edo one, and I can also say that the katas are the same. From what I understand of the Kuroda ha, one of their recent soke made some changes in the teaching and structure, which might reflect in those names. Overall, all the branches I have seen are impressively similar, changing mostly in matters of rythmn and angles. YSR is one if the most documented style in Japan, and at least three versions of their curriculum are widely available, including the Jubei one that is the most complete. They are studied by practitionners, and we regularly work from them in class. An important thing to consider is that branches of the same school were not obligated by any means to pursue the same path. On the contrary. It is nevertheless impressive to see how similar many of them still are. Look at Itto ryu. It is very difficult today to tell all the different has apart, even when they branched off centuries ago.
Great to see Kamiizumi mentioned - old Shinkage Ryu is raaaaaaaare now. Fun fact - the scene in The 7 Samurai wherein one of our protagonists disguises himself as a monk to save a hostage is based on an account of Kamiizumi in the field, as it were :)
long silence, wind blowing koto plays in the distance.... ITS OVER ANAKIN I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND "ASSUMES HASSO" YOU UNDER ESTIMATE MY POWER "ASSUMES GEDAN"
I used to go to a Wadoryu school and I remember that my master(not Japanese) told us that his master(Japanese) changed a lot of techniques and he himself over time changed a lot of techniques (and told us that all masters throughout time added their flavour to the moves) from what he got and most of it came from application, trying to come up with more effective variants that could be used more effectively (he also changed his mind a lot). Regardless it is easy to see how these things can change. I can't attest to how much his master changed before him, but I saw over the course of 9 years how many things he changed. Now he did it to make us better at sparring in so called semi-contact competition and supposedly in self defence, but you can just imagine how much these things change as the preferences of masters change and times change.
I think it's important to note that in the Shinkage Ryu Heiho Mokuroku (I think that's what it was called... Where in Odin's Many Names are my notes?) which those images are drawn from, the text was applied to those a hundred years later. I THINK the dude who wrote the notes came from the Edo branch, and by then there'd been some drift from Sekishusai so he might be describing them differently according to what his branch was doing at the time. IIRC, the Owari line's claim was that they kept closer to what Sekishusai originally did whereas the Edo branch was adjusted according to the battle experiences of Munenori and Jubei (and I'd imagine later headmasters as well). I belong to the Edo branch (I'm a student of Manogue Sensei who posted elsewhere) and while we've got pretty much all the same techniques as our Owari cousins we do things quite a bit differently, even if the underlying principles are (mostly) the same.
In western swordsmanship this is a Winden (winding) into half sword into either a mutieren with neck slice or absetzen (counter thrust). It's interesting that they halfsword with the right hand on blade but it makes sense to stop a cut from their right side to your left side.
Lost Samurai School actually was a rather interesting book. I liked it. What's funny is there's a Shinkage school in Manhattan... I think it's Yagyu, though I don't recall.
Tennin rishin ryu, kattori shinto ryu, yagyu shinkage ryu. As far as my research has taken me those are the three that seem to get you closest. Kattori shinto ryu being pretty much that. I see people complain thjngs dont change. Well let me state this. Fighting never changes just look at kung fu and karate. Sanchin kata has remained pretty much the same since its induction. Yet its still the standard and is closely resembled by its chinese fujian father. Just look at prize fighting. Yes weve figured out how to train better and be in better shape but the fighting itself has stayed the same. You have to think the same way of sword fighting. Yes weve come far there can be advancedments made. But theyll never be as well defined as the stuff that actually worked in combat which these schools i feel gets the closest to. The only other people i feel even have half the knowledge their anciet sword fighting might be the cossaks. Chinese in some cases but they sent most of their actual kung fu masters tonthe gulags. The muslim chinese fighters are among some ofnthe best so much so they developed the modern wushu style sanda. Its accredited to the monks but all the throws and grapple exchanges are all meng cun style baji quan.
Interesting, with some of the buildings I've seen with low ceilings in Japan, to protect against some longer weapons; it looked like you might of had a little space to side step if you get a chance to watch some of the videos with some different buildings in Japan or Kyoto...??? Shoji panels are great protection against mold in the forest... on a side note...??? Lol...
I love the book Lost Samurai school. Their is a lot of great info in there for Jujitsu people, kenjitsu people, ninja people or people like samurai. Go get that book.
It's true that every martial art evolve so none of them looks like even 50 years ago, not necessary 500. Informations from manuals are very good compliment for your understanding of history of some martial art you practice or not. But remember that author give only small portion of His knowledge. For example you don't now if He actually didnt practiced also variations of this technique more similar to modern ones. You will never get whole picture, thats true for all historical things, but you should get as much as possible. So I advice you to learn japanese and practice some living tradition because this will just increase you understanding of the subject.
Anthony I think your channel will boost in views if you create animations and narrate them. Then at the end show yourself and speak into the camera for a short summary of the given video. This requires the skill to create short animations, but it will immerse the viewer into the subject you're covering to a greater degree. Just an idea to chew on. I personally like your videos how they are, but animations seem to captivate viewers.
No, i am saying Heiho. They are the same kanji. But in Japanese things can be said two ways or more. Shinobi no mono, ninja, shinobi no jutsu, ninjutsu, shinobi Biden, ninpiden etc. Heiho is a very common way of saying it. Hyoho is another Thats all. I hope this helps. If you are digging into the Japanese language, start with the understanding that there are many ways to say the same kanji. It helps to start freedom there.
The Natori served the Takeda at one point... the koyo gunkan is written by a contemporary of Takeda Shingen. C’mon! There’s plenty of books on swordsmanship to compete with but no english translation of the koyo gunkan. 😭
I feel the need to say as Hatsumi when students/practitioners copy him too much: " - You don´t have to do it like Sensei or the way it´s written in the Densho…"
@Monk Downs And if that means going your own way because you believe to have seen something new or whatever the reason is then I suppose that´s what one must do.
I do not understand the tone of your comment. The point is to open people’s eyes to the complex evolution of Japanese swordsmanship, in many forms. If people commented in a more positive light and helped try to reach a better understanding, our community would be a better place.
Ok so let's break some things down.
A. This is not the Heiho Kadensho which was written by Yagyu Munenori 1632. It is in point of fact the Heiho e-Mokuroku drawn (no words) by his father Yagyu Sekishusai around 1604 which he gave to a friend who was the famous Noh actor Ujikatsu. It was not until over 100 years later that Ujikatsu's descendants asked a Shinkage Ryu master named Matsudaira to write the descriptions. Which he did but how much detail and 100% correct movements would he describe to non Yagyu Deshi? Both the Heiho Kadensho and Heiho e-Mokuroku are translated in both translations
B. At the end of each passage it clearly says "Kuden" meaning there is more to it then this. I mean what do we think Edojidai Densho especially ones written for non members or the public were for? Like an old 1930's paper boy yelling "SHINKAGE RYU HERE, GET YA SHINKAGE RYU HERE"?
C. Now I can only guess that Ms.Mieko is part of the Kuroda Han Yagyu Shinkage Ryu down in Kyushu. I am unfamiliar with their Mokuroku so I can not comment on this but the Heiho Emokuroku starts at the very first Kata set called the Sangaku, up through the Kuka and higher. The Kata names though some Shinkage Ryu branches have some variants are fairly consistent.
D. The main line of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is the Owari and I do not train with them but do have a large portion of their Mokuroku to at least compare the names and they match up which are identical to the Heiho e-Mokuroku.
E. As a Deshi of the Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu I can say with out a doubt the names are identical and match up. Not only that the movements described in the 1707 script are similar to what we practice today. But missing from the 1707 script are vital details, Kuden, and Ura Kata...
Hello Jason. Some good info. The thing i am saying is that each branch has different versions at times, and that each branch says that their version is the true one, the simple fact is not everyone can be correct and always people say that their branch is correct others changed, which can not be the case because someone has to have changed.
Jason Schwemmer Once this video popped on my feed, I instantly knew I would find a comment from you here 😂. Can’t wait to get back on the mat after all this craziness is over
I train under the Otsubo branch, which branched out relatively recently ftom the Edo one, and I can also say that the katas are the same. From what I understand of the Kuroda ha, one of their recent soke made some changes in the teaching and structure, which might reflect in those names. Overall, all the branches I have seen are impressively similar, changing mostly in matters of rythmn and angles. YSR is one if the most documented style in Japan, and at least three versions of their curriculum are widely available, including the Jubei one that is the most complete. They are studied by practitionners, and we regularly work from them in class.
An important thing to consider is that branches of the same school were not obligated by any means to pursue the same path. On the contrary. It is nevertheless impressive to see how similar many of them still are. Look at Itto ryu. It is very difficult today to tell all the different has apart, even when they branched off centuries ago.
Jason,
Do you train under Manogue Sensei?
@@bighaas5156 *Manogue Sensei and yes.
The technique you are showing remind me of the 5th kata in kuka no tachi.
Great to see Kamiizumi mentioned - old Shinkage Ryu is raaaaaaaare now.
Fun fact - the scene in The 7 Samurai wherein one of our protagonists disguises himself as a monk to save a hostage is based on an account of Kamiizumi in the field, as it were :)
Watanabe sensei of the Marobashi kai still teaches Shinkage ryu.
But you'll have to go to Japan.
I don't think this guy has any formal training.
There are no “Dan” rankings in Shinkage. Ask me how I know.
long silence, wind blowing koto plays in the distance....
ITS OVER ANAKIN I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND "ASSUMES HASSO"
YOU UNDER ESTIMATE MY POWER "ASSUMES GEDAN"
amazing stuff
I used to go to a Wadoryu school and I remember that my master(not Japanese) told us that his master(Japanese) changed a lot of techniques and he himself over time changed a lot of techniques (and told us that all masters throughout time added their flavour to the moves) from what he got and most of it came from application, trying to come up with more effective variants that could be used more effectively (he also changed his mind a lot).
Regardless it is easy to see how these things can change. I can't attest to how much his master changed before him, but I saw over the course of 9 years how many things he changed.
Now he did it to make us better at sparring in so called semi-contact competition and supposedly in self defence, but you can just imagine how much these things change as the preferences of masters change and times change.
Omegaures yes, they do seem to change a lot!
I think it's important to note that in the Shinkage Ryu Heiho Mokuroku (I think that's what it was called... Where in Odin's Many Names are my notes?) which those images are drawn from, the text was applied to those a hundred years later. I THINK the dude who wrote the notes came from the Edo branch, and by then there'd been some drift from Sekishusai so he might be describing them differently according to what his branch was doing at the time.
IIRC, the Owari line's claim was that they kept closer to what Sekishusai originally did whereas the Edo branch was adjusted according to the battle experiences of Munenori and Jubei (and I'd imagine later headmasters as well). I belong to the Edo branch (I'm a student of Manogue Sensei who posted elsewhere) and while we've got pretty much all the same techniques as our Owari cousins we do things quite a bit differently, even if the underlying principles are (mostly) the same.
Thank you for the info. Sounds good.
In western swordsmanship this is a Winden (winding) into half sword into either a mutieren with neck slice or absetzen (counter thrust). It's interesting that they halfsword with the right hand on blade but it makes sense to stop a cut from their right side to your left side.
Thanks Antony love the video I practice Owari shinkage Ryu
Great stuff. Thank you for stopping by.
Man we need links to those books.
Lost Samurai School actually was a rather interesting book. I liked it.
What's funny is there's a Shinkage school in Manhattan... I think it's Yagyu, though I don't recall.
owari yagyu shin kage ryu in the ken zen institute
Go to it.
Have you asked the sensi in charge?
What book are you reading from?
There are two mind and the sword and family traditions
It's a damn great book
Very interesting Ant
sami posti Glad you liked it!
Tennin rishin ryu, kattori shinto ryu, yagyu shinkage ryu. As far as my research has taken me those are the three that seem to get you closest. Kattori shinto ryu being pretty much that. I see people complain thjngs dont change. Well let me state this. Fighting never changes just look at kung fu and karate. Sanchin kata has remained pretty much the same since its induction. Yet its still the standard and is closely resembled by its chinese fujian father. Just look at prize fighting. Yes weve figured out how to train better and be in better shape but the fighting itself has stayed the same. You have to think the same way of sword fighting. Yes weve come far there can be advancedments made. But theyll never be as well defined as the stuff that actually worked in combat which these schools i feel gets the closest to. The only other people i feel even have half the knowledge their anciet sword fighting might be the cossaks. Chinese in some cases but they sent most of their actual kung fu masters tonthe gulags. The muslim chinese fighters are among some ofnthe best so much so they developed the modern wushu style sanda. Its accredited to the monks but all the throws and grapple exchanges are all meng cun style baji quan.
Interesting, with some of the buildings I've seen with low ceilings in Japan, to protect against some longer weapons; it looked like you might of had a little space to side step if you get a chance to watch some of the videos with some different buildings in Japan or Kyoto...??? Shoji panels are great protection against mold in the forest... on a side note...??? Lol...
Your interpretation of the Japanese technique is almost correct. Defining correct here as what I was taught in Japan as part of the Owari line.
Thank you for the feedback
Does Koryu Bujutsu and this school have any common ground?
yagyu is a koryu bujutsu
It is one of the most well known koryu systems. So yes. Have a look online see if you find any good info :)
When one understands the kamai...Both translations are correct Mr. Cummins...
Where did you buy the heiho kadensho book?? Now I'm quite interested on buying the book
Amazon. Most are on there. multiple translations, sword and the mind or life giving sword. look it up on wiki first
Some sort of backlight will get rid of that shadow. And you just covered that, should’ve waited...
Pirata Sports My place is to small to store lights and puut them all up. And it takes way too much time. Haha but thank you.
I love the book Lost Samurai school. Their is a lot of great info in there for Jujitsu people, kenjitsu people, ninja people or people like samurai. Go get that book.
6:55 ...oh bloody hell 😂😂 how did we miss this ?!!
I consider you as y sense
i think japanese i les narrow with meaning gedan can mean down warts or down
wow, what a deep and thourogh look at this!
Who was your instructor?
It's true that every martial art evolve so none of them looks like even 50 years ago, not necessary 500. Informations from manuals are very good compliment for your understanding of history of some martial art you practice or not. But remember that author give only small portion of His knowledge. For example you don't now if He actually didnt practiced also variations of this technique more similar to modern ones. You will never get whole picture, thats true for all historical things, but you should get as much as possible. So I advice you to learn japanese and practice some living tradition because this will just increase you understanding of the subject.
Pensei q ia mostrar técnicas...
Anthony I think your channel will boost in views if you create animations and narrate them. Then at the end show yourself and speak into the camera for a short summary of the given video. This requires the skill to create short animations, but it will immerse the viewer into the subject you're covering to a greater degree. Just an idea to chew on. I personally like your videos how they are, but animations seem to captivate viewers.
It's true
you also block cover over hit the butt of the sword that i use a lot the assent cut a cross the juggler
Are you trying to say Hyoho? ^^
No, i am saying Heiho. They are the same kanji. But in Japanese things can be said two ways or more. Shinobi no mono, ninja, shinobi no jutsu, ninjutsu, shinobi Biden, ninpiden etc. Heiho is a very common way of saying it. Hyoho is another Thats all. I hope this helps. If you are digging into the Japanese language, start with the understanding that there are many ways to say the same kanji. It helps to start freedom there.
The Natori served the Takeda at one point... the koyo gunkan is written by a contemporary of Takeda Shingen. C’mon! There’s plenty of books on swordsmanship to compete with but no english translation of the koyo gunkan. 😭
I feel the need to say as Hatsumi when students/practitioners copy him too much: " - You don´t have to do it like Sensei or the way it´s written in the Densho…"
@Monk Downs And if that means going your own way because you believe to have seen something new or whatever the reason is then I suppose that´s what one must do.
They can all be right based on the Yagyu philosophy.
Many people debunk these stupid videos where Ant talks about Koryu. You can't get good information from him or his school.
Using Bokuto instead of a Fukuro Shinai, hurt the credibility of this video.
Not really. In fact that’s the sort of thinking I’m trying to get rid of
The point of this video being ... ? Schools change? Congratulations.
I do not understand the tone of your comment. The point is to open people’s eyes to the complex evolution of Japanese swordsmanship, in many forms. If people commented in a more positive light and helped try to reach a better understanding, our community would be a better place.
@@AntonyCummins But People who practice japanese swordsmanship actually already know about complex evolution of it from many years Mr Cummins.
what do I think: do not learn martial arts from books or some novice.