Ok very good but you overlook one very important part... and that's that in Ableton regardless if you have plugins or tracks deactivated, they will still run just the same, just their audio is muted. This is how Ableton is designed (it's for live performances originally as you know). So you put all your MIDI and whatnot to the side in a disabled group, will not actually save on CPU usage. You can actually see it in your video too... soon as your track starts playing your CPU usage jumps to over 40% because now its running all your MIDI tracks muted and the audio tracks on top of it. So, the only way to actually have the benefits is saving the session as a Save As and call it "pre-bounce" or whatever, and then render everything to audio. Then you can, as you mentioned, still drag and drop the original MIDI and all related effects from the session with the MIDI intact back into your working session if you wish to adjust it later for whatever reason. Regardless, for final adjustments, audio is still the best over MIDI for all the reasons you mentioned.
This. Printing/Bouncing to audio saves CPU resources for mixing plugins, and it sets those randomizations and automations in place (like you just said). I think for me it would also help in marking a completion step, a sign to move on to the next stage vs endlessly tweaking. ADHD and Type A are strong with this one lol... thanks for sharing
Thanks Chris. I do something similar, but I use versioning, in the same folder. I usually organize my song folders by Ideas, Working, Mixing, Mastering (something like that). A specific song's folder moves to what folder status it is in. In that specific song folder is a version where it contains all the bits, but I do a freeze and flatten of everything and save a new version of that for the mix down. Sometimes, I may have 3 mix downs saved (all named versions), as well - as I am listening and I also do at least 3 different listens and I use my speaker monitors and my headphones, and often listen to the song on my iPhone, using Sonobus. When I have my mix the way I want, I then get on to mastering and I wrap it all up in one wave file and work it from there. This way, I am able to go back and fix things and quickly re-save, as I have all my steps, in my process saved as a version.
Thank you, this definitely made me think. Until now I've mostly mixed from MIDI, apart from a few actual recorded instruments. I use Bitwig and on my last album I did have some stuff that ran from Random modulators - but I used the "seed" feature to ensure they ran the same way every time. That said, I can definitely see many advantages to bouncing the audio first, and I think it is probably even more important for ambient genres. Someone else commented that taking this step draws a line under the work and helps reduce the temptation to go and tweak endlessly - for me, that's very true and a big reason why I'll probably do it this way in future, regardless of genre!
Great vid Chris :) depending on the track, in bitwig I like to bounce each individual track into a new track, and use this as an opportunity to properly name my tracks. Often times I am just chucking synths onto new tracks and not bothering to name them during the creative process. Once I’ve named the bounce track, I can deactivate the midi one and Bitwig is set to automatically hide deactivated tracks. Rinse and repeat until all the tracks I want in audio are done! I like adding my old midi tracks into a folder too so it’s all separate from the new mix down and easy to just show hidden tracks if I need to come back to a synth to then reprocess if I change my mind on a sound etc 🤙
I usually record randomized midi to a new midi track so that new track will always be the same but still easily editable. Bouncing to audio comes later if the CPU is getting maxed out.
I work primarily in Reason (v13, as of today). The beauty of Reason is that I can bounce to audio and it automatically preserves the MIDI track, but disables it. No fuss, no muss. I love this feature. The other advantage is that, if anything happens to the MIDI data or the patch being used (I upgraded Pigments some years back and it nuked all my custom patches!), your tracks are saved in audio and you at least don't lose ALL of your work. Great video, Chris. Btw, love this track.
Great topic. For a whole lot of reasons, in my humble experience, is to bounce most midi tracks to audio. Its very easy in Reaper, by default Reaper mutes the midi version and keeps the audio (track freezing). It is often the case to reprocess bounced tracks several times. You can go into the track manager, hide and clean up experiments and work space and pretend you are organized. Best case is having a final mix which appears as a whole lot of audio stems with no automation or automation and effects saved, as long as there is a trail backwards
Bitwig allows you to bounce the track and then you can deactivate the midi track. You can also hide/show all deactivated tracks if you need to go back.
Cheers, valid points. Back when i started i did this out of necessety, because frankly my computer was not handling too much, and i kept it ever since. It also forces me to commit to what i did at some point, and not run into endless tweaking and changing stuff ... with my adhd it would just lead to nothing gets ever done apart from tweaked into oblivion and ending as crap. I also use the "save as ..." function for it, which works fine for me.
It feels a little like you’re blaming MIDI for users not understanding/caring about the repercussions of all these randomize functions. And it’s great that you’re taking the time and effort to explain the problem, I just wish Ableton and all the youtubers going nuts over ”having the DAW write the music for you” would’ve taken a minute to actually point this potentially problematic situation… As you can probably read between the lines, I don’t use these features because I’m pretty OCD about my music - possibly to my detriment! - but hey, if it inspires someone to make music, I’m all for it! Thanks for a great video, I’ll be recommending it to others! Keep being awesome!
I love your videos. I usually start my morning watching tutorials, and yours are the ones I always look forward to! I recently bought Atoms and your preset pack, been playing around with it all day, incredibly fun! Thank you!
this makes it sooo much easier to mix, especially of you work with longer format music. short format benefits too, especially those with lots of midi. great vid this needs to be shared
I am all new in the daw and midi world and highly confused, but at the same time overwhelmed by the possibilities. So, does that mean, let's say i have this session open in LUNA, i have a midi track of a violin in the decent sampler, have some eq and compressor and reverb on the inserts, i can bounce/render/change the whole thing into an audio track with those effects on the actual audio? I am sorry to bother you with this, as i said, i am seriously overwhelmed with this midi thing, as embarrassing as that is after all those years, i never got the hang of it, never interested me, well, here i am and i have questions. ˘J˘ So is that the case or would i just have the same plug in inserts open after the midi to audio bounce? Sorry again for the confusion, to add to it, i am not an English native speaker, i'd be more than grateful if you could help me out with this, thank you!
@@lowandodor1150 hi. yes thats correct. the midi will be exported or rendered with the effects on that channel. You will then import it, or drag it to a Audio track. It will have all the effects "printed on it" it turns the 1's and 0's into a wave.
@@Dmyra Thank you, that is sweet. But i have not found the option on LUNA yet, but that doesn't mean at all it isn't there ˘J˘ So, if i may, do i do this track by track, or can you export several tracks like that at once? Thank you for your kind, informative reply, let me tell you, this whole midi/daw thing is so overwhelming, and i especially don't have a brain for computers/midi at all, it just doesn't get through to me, never did, so i really feel like a cave man trying to make sense of it all.... .. . .
I think you didn't mention here that this method leaves Send Tracks processing intact, so if you have something random happening there, then you're failing to solve the initial premise of your method anyway. And that Send Tracks still eat the CPU. I'm curious - why wouldn't you just export each track using the "Export Audio/Video" dialog with "Include Return & Main FX" option enabled (which would be the equivalent of consecutively soloing each track and resampling the Master track)? This would really solve the "problem" you're trying to address. (I write "problem", because you don't ever randomize parts of your track that are important - actual notes of maim melody, or chord progression, or key drum hits - but do that for sound design(y) stuff, like envelopes, cut-off, etc. and you should always make sure the ranges you use won't throw the mix out of the window anyway. For me the real reason to bounce stuff to audio is so that I'm no longer compelled to touch it, tweak it, perfect it, etc. - there's no end to it for me :) ) BTW, followed - great channel (and music!).
Your points about saving strategies, brings to mind the thought I’ve had why Bitwig, which I use, doesn’t have a snapshot function similar to Lightroom. A non-destructive means by which sequences/clips/arrangements could be auditioned and/or reverted in once click. Really powerful in LR and would be a game changer in a DAW.
I have this issue because I have such a hard time considering a synth or whatever “done”. Clearly a me problem, but perhaps your tips will help me to overcome that.
Following you for over a year and i can say that i can throw away my diploma no problem. Learned form you so much i can't start explaining. Thank you., sir.
I just got out of a long convo on this VERY topic xD we stopped because I linked this vid xD haha & yes in short I said "make sound & bounce" because this will stop you tinkering with it which is never ending. & the mistakes will make your next attempt more concise & you will learn to make better choices & focus on what you are doing. Where as if it's all MIDI you can get lazy & "come back to it later" which can be deathly! Yes!
Maybe dumb questions, but do you bounce the MIDI “dry” with no FX? Or do you print the insert FX also? Do you have to re-setup the sends’ levels after bouncing?
Not a dumb question at all, it's a good one. It's an important consideration, since insert effects usually alter the sound a great deal. If I have an insert effect on a track, more often than not, I like to bounce without insert effects, and then apply after. This way, the original sound remains unaltered and if I need to change the setting of the effect, I can do that without altering the actual waveform.
I've been doing a similar technique with duplicating and freezing, except I group each individual track with the midi and audio. Might try out your organization since I have a lot of visual noise in my projects when I do that. Wondering why you drop the buses when at the mixing stage?
As I mentioned in the video, I use the "Utility" template for Ableton which has extra compressors on the busses which I feel are not needed at the mixing stage. Personal preference!
Thanks Chris. I do something similar but often also end up mixing with MIDI due to pure laziness. Wish there was more procedural and non destructive ways to do this in Ableton. Rather than freezing the MIDI tracks, do you think it’s a good idea to setup companion audio track for each MIdI track and set it up as the input for the audio track and record? That way, if one has to change something in the MIDI track, then the audio track can be re-armed and re-recorded there by keeping all the edits and other processing chain on the existing audio track intact (and kind of pseudo-live)?
That would work but if you bounce in real time, that would take a long time to bounce all of your tracks! I work quickly and offline bounce is my usual method of working. Whatever works for you though! Give it a try.
Appreciate that accountability, "commit to print" 😅 I still wrestle with the overload error till the very last moment in logic..haha! love how you duplicate and group all the midi for later recall. Thnx for a look under the mixing hood. Do you have a utility template for "Logic Pro"?
Ok very good but you overlook one very important part... and that's that in Ableton regardless if you have plugins or tracks deactivated, they will still run just the same, just their audio is muted. This is how Ableton is designed (it's for live performances originally as you know).
So you put all your MIDI and whatnot to the side in a disabled group, will not actually save on CPU usage. You can actually see it in your video too... soon as your track starts playing your CPU usage jumps to over 40% because now its running all your MIDI tracks muted and the audio tracks on top of it.
So, the only way to actually have the benefits is saving the session as a Save As and call it "pre-bounce" or whatever, and then render everything to audio. Then you can, as you mentioned, still drag and drop the original MIDI and all related effects from the session with the MIDI intact back into your working session if you wish to adjust it later for whatever reason.
Regardless, for final adjustments, audio is still the best over MIDI for all the reasons you mentioned.
This. Printing/Bouncing to audio saves CPU resources for mixing plugins, and it sets those randomizations and automations in place (like you just said). I think for me it would also help in marking a completion step, a sign to move on to the next stage vs endlessly tweaking. ADHD and Type A are strong with this one lol...
thanks for sharing
Thanks Chris. I do something similar, but I use versioning, in the same folder. I usually organize my song folders by Ideas, Working, Mixing, Mastering (something like that). A specific song's folder moves to what folder status it is in. In that specific song folder is a version where it contains all the bits, but I do a freeze and flatten of everything and save a new version of that for the mix down. Sometimes, I may have 3 mix downs saved (all named versions), as well - as I am listening and I also do at least 3 different listens and I use my speaker monitors and my headphones, and often listen to the song on my iPhone, using Sonobus. When I have my mix the way I want, I then get on to mastering and I wrap it all up in one wave file and work it from there. This way, I am able to go back and fix things and quickly re-save, as I have all my steps, in my process saved as a version.
Thanks for the ideas! I'm curious if you use any kind of plug-ins for notekeeping on your tracks?
@@Skiddoo42 Session Notes - its a free M4L device, while I don't always use it, I have dropped it on things that I need to work on here and there
@@VentureNW Thanks!
Thank you, this definitely made me think. Until now I've mostly mixed from MIDI, apart from a few actual recorded instruments. I use Bitwig and on my last album I did have some stuff that ran from Random modulators - but I used the "seed" feature to ensure they ran the same way every time. That said, I can definitely see many advantages to bouncing the audio first, and I think it is probably even more important for ambient genres. Someone else commented that taking this step draws a line under the work and helps reduce the temptation to go and tweak endlessly - for me, that's very true and a big reason why I'll probably do it this way in future, regardless of genre!
Great vid Chris :) depending on the track, in bitwig I like to bounce each individual track into a new track, and use this as an opportunity to properly name my tracks. Often times I am just chucking synths onto new tracks and not bothering to name them during the creative process. Once I’ve named the bounce track, I can deactivate the midi one and Bitwig is set to automatically hide deactivated tracks. Rinse and repeat until all the tracks I want in audio are done! I like adding my old midi tracks into a folder too so it’s all separate from the new mix down and easy to just show hidden tracks if I need to come back to a synth to then reprocess if I change my mind on a sound etc 🤙
I usually record randomized midi to a new midi track so that new track will always be the same but still easily editable. Bouncing to audio comes later if the CPU is getting maxed out.
Yes. I use this method too a lot of the time.
I work primarily in Reason (v13, as of today). The beauty of Reason is that I can bounce to audio and it automatically preserves the MIDI track, but disables it. No fuss, no muss. I love this feature. The other advantage is that, if anything happens to the MIDI data or the patch being used (I upgraded Pigments some years back and it nuked all my custom patches!), your tracks are saved in audio and you at least don't lose ALL of your work. Great video, Chris. Btw, love this track.
I also love this feature. Every DAW should do this by default
Bitwig Studio also has hybrid tracks.
@@tristen_grant Yet another positive that I'm hearing about Bitwig.
Thanks for this, Chris!
Great topic. For a whole lot of reasons, in my humble experience, is to bounce most midi tracks to audio. Its very easy in Reaper, by default Reaper mutes the midi version and keeps the audio (track freezing). It is often the case to reprocess bounced tracks several times. You can go into the track manager, hide and clean up experiments and work space and pretend you are organized.
Best case is having a final mix which appears as a whole lot of audio stems with no automation or automation and effects saved, as long as there is a trail backwards
Bitwig allows you to bounce the track and then you can deactivate the midi track. You can also hide/show all deactivated tracks if you need to go back.
Cheers, valid points. Back when i started i did this out of necessety, because frankly my computer was not handling too much, and i kept it ever since. It also forces me to commit to what i did at some point, and not run into endless tweaking and changing stuff ... with my adhd it would just lead to nothing gets ever done apart from tweaked into oblivion and ending as crap. I also use the "save as ..." function for it, which works fine for me.
It feels a little like you’re blaming MIDI for users not understanding/caring about the repercussions of all these randomize functions.
And it’s great that you’re taking the time and effort to explain the problem, I just wish Ableton and all the youtubers going nuts over ”having the DAW write the music for you” would’ve taken a minute to actually point this potentially problematic situation…
As you can probably read between the lines, I don’t use these features because I’m pretty OCD about my music - possibly to my detriment! - but hey, if it inspires someone to make music, I’m all for it!
Thanks for a great video, I’ll be recommending it to others! Keep being awesome!
I love your videos. I usually start my morning watching tutorials, and yours are the ones I always look forward to! I recently bought Atoms and your preset pack, been playing around with it all day, incredibly fun! Thank you!
this makes it sooo much easier to mix, especially of you work with longer format music. short format benefits too, especially those with lots of midi. great vid this needs to be shared
I am all new in the daw and midi world and highly confused, but at the same time overwhelmed by the possibilities. So, does that mean, let's say i have this session open in LUNA, i have a midi track of a violin in the decent sampler, have some eq and compressor and reverb on the inserts, i can bounce/render/change the whole thing into an audio track with those effects on the actual audio? I am sorry to bother you with this, as i said, i am seriously overwhelmed with this midi thing, as embarrassing as that is after all those years, i never got the hang of it, never interested me, well, here i am and i have questions. ˘J˘
So is that the case or would i just have the same plug in inserts open after the midi to audio bounce? Sorry again for the confusion, to add to it, i am not an English native speaker, i'd be more than grateful if you could help me out with this, thank you!
@@lowandodor1150 hi. yes thats correct.
the midi will be exported or rendered with the effects on that channel.
You will then import it, or drag it to a Audio track. It will have all the effects "printed on it"
it turns the 1's and 0's into a wave.
@@Dmyra Thank you, that is sweet. But i have not found the option on LUNA yet, but that doesn't mean at all it isn't there ˘J˘
So, if i may, do i do this track by track, or can you export several tracks like that at once?
Thank you for your kind, informative reply, let me tell you, this whole midi/daw thing is so overwhelming, and i especially don't have a brain for computers/midi at all, it just doesn't get through to me, never did, so i really feel like a cave man trying to make sense of it all.... .. . .
I think you didn't mention here that this method leaves Send Tracks processing intact, so if you have something random happening there, then you're failing to solve the initial premise of your method anyway. And that Send Tracks still eat the CPU.
I'm curious - why wouldn't you just export each track using the "Export Audio/Video" dialog with "Include Return & Main FX" option enabled (which would be the equivalent of consecutively soloing each track and resampling the Master track)? This would really solve the "problem" you're trying to address.
(I write "problem", because you don't ever randomize parts of your track that are important - actual notes of maim melody, or chord progression, or key drum hits - but do that for sound design(y) stuff, like envelopes, cut-off, etc. and you should always make sure the ranges you use won't throw the mix out of the window anyway. For me the real reason to bounce stuff to audio is so that I'm no longer compelled to touch it, tweak it, perfect it, etc. - there's no end to it for me :) )
BTW, followed - great channel (and music!).
I hadn't considered doing that - that is, keeping the midi off but in the mix. Very good ideas and I will try them out. Thanks mate
Reaper is cool cuz i can revert back to midi any track any time i like
Your points about saving strategies, brings to mind the thought I’ve had why Bitwig, which I use, doesn’t have a snapshot function similar to Lightroom. A non-destructive means by which sequences/clips/arrangements could be auditioned and/or reverted in once click. Really powerful in LR and would be a game changer in a DAW.
Thank you for sharing these tipps 😎
gem workflow. thanks brotha
I have this issue because I have such a hard time considering a synth or whatever “done”. Clearly a me problem, but perhaps your tips will help me to overcome that.
Following you for over a year and i can say that i can throw away my diploma no problem. Learned form you so much i can't start explaining. Thank you., sir.
You have a diploma in ambient music?
@@tristen_grant Music production and sound design. Sorry for not making a drawing.
I just got out of a long convo on this VERY topic xD
we stopped because I linked this vid xD haha
& yes in short I said "make sound & bounce" because this will stop you tinkering with it which is never ending.
& the mistakes will make your next attempt more concise & you will learn to make better choices & focus on what you are doing.
Where as if it's all MIDI you can get lazy & "come back to it later" which can be deathly!
Yes!
Maybe dumb questions, but do you bounce the MIDI “dry” with no FX? Or do you print the insert FX also? Do you have to re-setup the sends’ levels after bouncing?
Not a dumb question at all, it's a good one. It's an important consideration, since insert effects usually alter the sound a great deal. If I have an insert effect on a track, more often than not, I like to bounce without insert effects, and then apply after. This way, the original sound remains unaltered and if I need to change the setting of the effect, I can do that without altering the actual waveform.
@@s1gns0fl1fe That makes sense. Thanks for the reply!
It's all about commitment
well done
Do know ambient demo projects I could study?
I've been doing a similar technique with duplicating and freezing, except I group each individual track with the midi and audio. Might try out your organization since I have a lot of visual noise in my projects when I do that.
Wondering why you drop the buses when at the mixing stage?
As I mentioned in the video, I use the "Utility" template for Ableton which has extra compressors on the busses which I feel are not needed at the mixing stage. Personal preference!
Thanks Chris. I do something similar but often also end up mixing with MIDI due to pure laziness. Wish there was more procedural and non destructive ways to do this in Ableton. Rather than freezing the MIDI tracks, do you think it’s a good idea to setup companion audio track for each MIdI track and set it up as the input for the audio track and record? That way, if one has to change something in the MIDI track, then the audio track can be re-armed and re-recorded there by keeping all the edits and other processing chain on the existing audio track intact (and kind of pseudo-live)?
That would work but if you bounce in real time, that would take a long time to bounce all of your tracks! I work quickly and offline bounce is my usual method of working. Whatever works for you though! Give it a try.
I have the problem that I already start the mixing process while writing.. I need to stop that because it takes away from my creative process
I do the same.
Appreciate that accountability, "commit to print" 😅 I still wrestle with the overload error till the very last moment in logic..haha! love how you duplicate and group all the midi for later recall. Thnx for a look under the mixing hood. Do you have a utility template for "Logic Pro"?
Re: Logic Template - nothing commercial yet but it's in the works. Stay tuned!
thanks
I duplicate, freeze copy, mute the original and turn off all plugins. Voilà! Now you can edit the frozen file as audio or leave it alone.
Do you have a video explaining your bus setup?
I do! th-cam.com/video/DJqt7PT7O3M/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-IDW-u87qmH-Z3Yw
@@s1gns0fl1fe Thanks bro 👍🏿
Keep forgetting to freeze the midi tracks once I like what I hear so I can work on the next track, and my software keeps giving me grief for it. :)
The first step to be a “pro”
Amazing thanks, never even crossed my mind this could be a thing 😮,😂 thank you🤘