It’s not just older locos ,one of my bachmann 66s and a deltic derailed on one of my curved points that too turned out to be back to backs and the deltic the front wheels fouled the body which was screwed down too tight simple fix but as you say off putting to new comers to the hobby ,funny my triang hornby blue Pullman goes through no problem Many thanks 👍🏻😊😊
The problem is that the flange spacing is too narrow as you've said but a bigger problem is that although there has been an international standard for flange size and spacing for over forty years British manufacturers don't use it. Hornby is not trying to be compatible with other systems, they want you to buy their track but Peco is selling in the international market place and so although their points are not exactly to the standard set for flangeway clearances they are very close. As you have said, correct flange spacing is the answer. Good video, thank you. David.
I read a few months ago that most of the major manufacturers (that is, everyone except Hornby) had met to agree standards and they stick to them, more or less. Hornby - going back to their old Tri-Ang days - have always been the odd one out. I've used the screwdriver and the Kadee back to back gauge, and my ALBERT (strange how so many of us bought them in the mid to late 70's!) now goes through Peco pointwork much better. There are still some sticky bits, but they will be having more "treatment". Next is my Flying Scotsman of similar vintage, which is jammed solid! Great video. Thank you!
You need electrofrog points where the frog has more metal where the frog is so if you look at the points frog there will be a big gap between the rail heads that is plastic so is therefore non conductive. Most of the trains that have more pickups do have more contact with the rail and therefore not as much stopping which is really annoying & by the looks of it you have the standard hornby points. There is a train TH-camr that does a peice on the differences between the types of points you can buy to keep your trains running (i think it was charlie from Chadwick model railways but dont quote me on that). You can also use a stay alive where the current is kept in a capacitor and powers the train over the dead spots in the points where there is no power. I hope this helps you. Cheers from John in Australia
Hi there! I have been running recently my old Hornby Albert Hall, my Lord of the Isles and a Mainline Railways 062T Collett. My layout was previously designed for running continental HO trains, and I subsequently converted it to English style OO with a new landscape and decoration (see my TH-cam videos by searching with key words Collection Philippe Danjou). I decided to not change the existing track, just in case I would. revert to HO in the future. What I found is that there was no problem with these locos on the points, except for the curved points which are a source of frequent derailment. However, many coaches made by Hornby in the past or more recently do not like the modern track. Curiously, most of the recent Bachmann coaches create no problem at all. Short wagons in both brands have erratic behaviours, some are OK and some others derail on points. Apparently, the production standards are not identical. Some problems have been fixed by enlarging or narrowing the distance between the internal faces of the wheels.
buy or make a wheel gauge, 14.5 mm back to back. Older locos and carriages are set a little narrower, approx. 14mm. 14.5 is the standard, they are easy to reset and check occasionally. Nice job keeping the old set together and running.
When i built my layout i used all Hornby flexi and hornby points-no problem, all the club and display layouts i have experienced/seen having constant point related problems have been on Peco......
The Pullman coach you have is not a Triang but a Hornby (Made in Great Britain) model.. The Triang Pullman coaches are somewhat shorter in length & have either cream or white rooves, depending on their date of manufacture. Good luck with those Peco points.The modern track is always on the fine side. Might be worth looking at some older points from Triang/Hornby which will be designed to take into account the cookie-cutter wheel flanges of older rolling stock.
The Crux of the matter is that old Triang and Triang Hornby Locos and rolling stock plus track work were built to a coarser scale, Peco has always to my knowledge labelled their points and track Fine scale hence the problems. Modern Hornby trains are now built to fine scale so they will run smoothly on Peco track.
I too have the same model Hall and the screwdriver tip does work. I use a vernier to keep checking the back to back measurement until it gets to just over 14.4mm. If you go too far it's relatively easy to close the gap up again - using a small g cramp with small blocks of wood to bear on the centre of the wheels - be careful you don't crush any con rods! I also have older Triang Pullman coaches - the ones with the solid axles through the bogies and the thick plastic split axle wheels. John's Amazing Trains has a great video on how to change these, but I found that by thoroughly oiling the metal axle and in the split it gives free movement for the wheels to part at points and pass through without problem so long as it's at a slow to medium speed. There is a bit of a rock which I think it caused by the deep flanges riding over the base of the frog, which I suspect can be fixed by slightly sanding the flange circumference down. There is a video on You Tube which shows my Pullman set (consisting of 3 Hornby coaches with the rest being Triang split axle - the white and grey roofed coaches) at 2minutes 10 seconds successfully negotiating 3 Peco electrofrog code 100 points. Just search for #9 Setforth Junction August running session. Light levels aren't good but at least you can see it running successfully although the last coach does rock a bit on the point at the station exit, hence me intending to reduce the diameter slightly, and also add some weight.
I stumbled on to this problem also . After some attempts to relieve the points, that proved to be a tedious and less than successful exercise. As a trained mechanic I thought a closer look at the loco could reveal a solution. As you have discovered the wheels are pressed on to the axles. I have a workshop press and an assortment of mechanics tools including pin punches . I dismantled the loco down to the bare frame, engine and wheels. I found a piece of tubing of suitable diameter to allow the frame to rest on on end of the tubing and stand the tubing and chassis on the press table. It was then a simple matter of holding a 1/16" pin punch and bring the press ram down and gently push against the axle. The back of the wheel is supported by the loco frame which is supported by the tube. Just a matter of pushing the axle out of the wheel slightly and then testing on a piece of track to ensure that you haven't pushed it too far. If you go too far this is easily remedied by squeezing the two wheels together in a vice. Again very gently. After adjusting both axles and a test run on standard Peco points I had no difficulties with negotiating them. I would say a resounding success.
Thank you very much for your advice. So what I understand, you altered the back to back measurement. I did the same thing. I believe there is a back to back gauge available to quickly check to. Thanks again for your advice.
Not quite sure how a wheel-set that is too narrow causes the outer wheel to climb the frog. The check rail (guard rail) should stop that. You mention a back-to-back gauge, but don't use it when easing the loco wheels. Keeping the wheels parallel is on of the functions of such a gauge. If the dimension back-to-front is too great (because of thick flanges, and in spite of back-to-back being correct) then both the guard rail and wing rails will be compromised. But on coaches, good simple solution to swap the wheels. The older wheels are modded to the axle, so cannot be adjusted, as well as suffering old-spec flanges (too tall and too thick) Regards, Tom
The most common problem i had with older locomotives is the wheel alignment is a bit off and it hits the plastic parts. Simple fix: get a pair of pliers and make the wheels further apart or you will have to modify the points
hello, thank you for this video and info on a common problem, I'm having the same can you say where you are getting the replacement wheels for your coaches.
This has been a very minor problem with Triang Railways / Triang Hornby / Hornby locos and stock fitted with the post 1964 pin point axles or silver seal wheels since 1952..... the back to back ratio is narrower than it should be. Older stock equipped with sleeved axles don't have any issues with Peco live frog or streamline points because they are self compensating, it's just the pin point axles stock that has issues unless the back to back is corrected. There has always been back to back guage sold by model railway shops, usually made of brass, since the 1960's to assist railway modellers reset their rolling stock and locos. I've had my brass back to back guage since the 1970's. Still available on E-bay: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-14-4mm-Back-To-Back-Wheel-Gauge-Golden-Valley-Hobbies-GVB2BOO/382336803738?hash=item59050ca39a:g:wasAAOSwfcBZksqA:rk:18:pf:0
PLEASE don't move the wheels by using a screwdriver and levering the wheels apart, instead put the locos on a solid base and get yourself a small punch and "wack" the center of the opposite side axle, this way you will not have the problem of "wobbly wheels" beleive me, this works - at least it has done for the last 65years.
HiThis is an old chestnut and still is a problem with new rolling stockThe answer is a back to back gauge made by DCC Concepts available all overtake a look at ay76 channel he has a video showing it being used on a new coachI would suggest that every item of locos and rolling stock be gauged this will stop most if not all of these probles
Any issues can be rectified. Regarding peco points I use a cutting disc (not in the minidrill) and run it through the check rails being careful not to remove too much material and checking clearance after every pass. Alternatively you could use a hairdryer and apply a little heat to the check rails then using a thin piece of metal between the stock and check rails gently persuade the check rails towards the frog.
Your Pullman carriage is by Hornby: R233 IIRC. The Hornby Pullman Brake is R234 and there was also R230 which was a Silver Seal wheeled Golden Arrow Pullman Car. I have this problem with my Hornby 1980s vintage diesels which are Ringfield engined running on modern day Peco pointwork. Not as apparent on Hornby points and Silver Seal wheels can suffer from the same problem too. Much harder to rectify this problem with those however and trying to fit 1980s vintage stock with more up to date wheels just does not work! This video was excellent - thank you for posting.
Good advice,Ii think i have the opposite problem with an old Hornby pannier tank engine. The wheels appear to be too wide apart and it struggles on 2nd radius curves and points. I have subscribed to you, please have a look at my channel.
ppl to quick to jump on the peco train and end up with all these problems...was given a layout with peco points on and tried to use them in a new shunting layout but had problem after problem with them even glued on more check rail but with no joy...ended up selling them...because every1 jumps on the peco train hornby points can be picked up very cheap...i rarely pay more than a pound for them.....says it all wen a stadard is availiable and no1 uses it
I use code 100 points with the metal check rail which is fine for some older stock. However I have a triang pullman which has been re wheeled, much cheaper than the Bachmann offering . I have subbed would appreciate a sub in return thanks
Hey John, I agree, I am quite satisfied with the older triang hornby stock, it's also a little more robust and as you point out, with new wheels you save a fortune. We do however treat ourselves to some new carriages every now and then. I have subbed to your channel, Cheers, Gavin
14.3mm to 14.4mm is the correct back to back for old coarse wheels used with Hornby and Peco code 100 turnouts.
It’s not just older locos ,one of my bachmann 66s and a deltic derailed on one of my curved points that too turned out to be back to backs and the deltic the front wheels fouled the body which was screwed down too tight simple fix but as you say off putting to new comers to the hobby ,funny my triang hornby blue Pullman goes through no problem
Many thanks 👍🏻😊😊
adjusting back to back dim can be done with a bolt and an extended nut placed in between the wheel set and then adjusted
your daughter is a natural video camera operator, superb , give her a hug :0)
The problem is that the flange spacing is too narrow as you've said but a bigger problem is that although there has been an international standard for flange size and spacing for over forty years British manufacturers don't use it. Hornby is not trying to be compatible with other systems, they want you to buy their track but Peco is selling in the international market place and so although their points are not exactly to the standard set for flangeway clearances they are very close. As you have said, correct flange spacing is the answer. Good video, thank you. David.
I read a few months ago that most of the major manufacturers (that is, everyone except Hornby) had met to agree standards and they stick to them, more or less. Hornby - going back to their old Tri-Ang days - have always been the odd one out. I've used the screwdriver and the Kadee back to back gauge, and my ALBERT (strange how so many of us bought them in the mid to late 70's!) now goes through Peco pointwork much better. There are still some sticky bits, but they will be having more "treatment". Next is my Flying Scotsman of similar vintage, which is jammed solid! Great video. Thank you!
You need electrofrog points where the frog has more metal where the frog is so if you look at the points frog there will be a big gap between the rail heads that is plastic so is therefore non conductive.
Most of the trains that have more pickups do have more contact with the rail and therefore not as much stopping which is really annoying & by the looks of it you have the standard hornby points. There is a train TH-camr that does a peice on the differences between the types of points you can buy to keep your trains running (i think it was charlie from Chadwick model railways but dont quote me on that).
You can also use a stay alive where the current is kept in a capacitor and powers the train over the dead spots in the points where there is no power.
I hope this helps you.
Cheers from John in Australia
Hi there! I have been running recently my old Hornby Albert Hall, my Lord of the Isles and a Mainline Railways 062T Collett. My layout was previously designed for running continental HO trains, and I subsequently converted it to English style OO with a new landscape and decoration (see my TH-cam videos by searching with key words Collection Philippe Danjou). I decided to not change the existing track, just in case I would. revert to HO in the future. What I found is that there was no problem with these locos on the points, except for the curved points which are a source of frequent derailment. However, many coaches made by Hornby in the past or more recently do not like the modern track. Curiously, most of the recent Bachmann coaches create no problem at all. Short wagons in both brands have erratic behaviours, some are OK and some others derail on points. Apparently, the production standards are not identical. Some problems have been fixed by enlarging or narrowing the distance between the internal faces of the wheels.
buy or make a wheel gauge, 14.5 mm back to back. Older locos and carriages are set a little narrower, approx. 14mm. 14.5 is the standard, they are easy to reset and check occasionally. Nice job keeping the old set together and running.
14.5mm back to back is too wide for Peco and Hornby turnouts using old coarse wheels. 14.3mm to 14.4mm is best for older wheels.
Regarding the shorting if you add nail varnish to the fog it will help to insulate thus avoid shorting. You will have to re-apply as it wears.
When i built my layout i used all Hornby flexi and hornby points-no problem, all the club and display layouts i have experienced/seen having constant point related problems have been on Peco......
The Pullman coach you have is not a Triang but a Hornby (Made in Great Britain) model.. The Triang Pullman coaches are somewhat shorter in length & have either cream or white rooves, depending on their date of manufacture. Good luck with those Peco points.The modern track is always on the fine side. Might be worth looking at some older points from Triang/Hornby which will be designed to take into account the cookie-cutter wheel flanges of older rolling stock.
The Crux of the matter is that old Triang and Triang Hornby Locos and rolling stock plus track work were built to a coarser scale, Peco has always to my knowledge labelled their points and track Fine scale hence the problems. Modern Hornby trains are now built to fine scale so they will run smoothly on Peco track.
I too have the same model Hall and the screwdriver tip does work. I use a vernier to keep checking the back to back measurement until it gets to just over 14.4mm. If you go too far it's relatively easy to close the gap up again - using a small g cramp with small blocks of wood to bear on the centre of the wheels - be careful you don't crush any con rods!
I also have older Triang Pullman coaches - the ones with the solid axles through the bogies and the thick plastic split axle wheels. John's Amazing Trains has a great video on how to change these, but I found that by thoroughly oiling the metal axle and in the split it gives free movement for the wheels to part at points and pass through without problem so long as it's at a slow to medium speed. There is a bit of a rock which I think it caused by the deep flanges riding over the base of the frog, which I suspect can be fixed by slightly sanding the flange circumference down.
There is a video on You Tube which shows my Pullman set (consisting of 3 Hornby coaches with the rest being Triang split axle - the white and grey roofed coaches) at 2minutes 10 seconds successfully negotiating 3 Peco electrofrog code 100 points. Just search for #9 Setforth Junction August running session. Light levels aren't good but at least you can see it running successfully although the last coach does rock a bit on the point at the station exit, hence me intending to reduce the diameter slightly, and also add some weight.
I stumbled on to this problem also . After some attempts to relieve the points, that proved to be a tedious and less than successful exercise. As a trained mechanic I thought a closer look at the loco could reveal a solution. As you have discovered the wheels are pressed on to the axles. I have a workshop press and an assortment of mechanics tools including pin punches . I dismantled the loco down to the bare frame, engine and wheels. I found a piece of tubing of suitable diameter to allow the frame to rest on on end of the tubing and stand the tubing and chassis on the press table. It was then a simple matter of holding a 1/16" pin punch and bring the press ram down and gently push against the axle. The back of the wheel is supported by the loco frame which is supported by the tube. Just a matter of pushing the axle out of the wheel slightly and then testing on a piece of track to ensure that you haven't pushed it too far. If you go too far this is easily remedied by squeezing the two wheels together in a vice. Again very gently. After adjusting both axles and a test run on standard Peco points I had no difficulties with negotiating them. I would say a resounding success.
Thank you very much for your advice. So what I understand, you altered the back to back measurement. I did the same thing. I believe there is a back to back gauge available to quickly check to. Thanks again for your advice.
Not quite sure how a wheel-set that is too narrow causes the outer wheel to climb the frog. The check rail (guard rail) should stop that.
You mention a back-to-back gauge, but don't use it when easing the loco wheels. Keeping the wheels parallel is on of the functions of such a gauge.
If the dimension back-to-front is too great (because of thick flanges, and in spite of back-to-back being correct) then both the guard rail and wing rails will be compromised.
But on coaches, good simple solution to swap the wheels. The older wheels are modded to the axle, so cannot be adjusted, as well as suffering old-spec flanges (too tall and too thick)
Regards, Tom
The most common problem i had with older locomotives is the wheel alignment is a bit off and it hits the plastic parts.
Simple fix: get a pair of pliers and make the wheels further apart or you will have to modify the points
Take a dremel and deepen the flange clearance in the frog area
hello, thank you for this video and info on a common problem, I'm having the same can you say where you are getting the replacement wheels for your coaches.
Just saw this message. I got the wheels from hattons as a bulk pack. They made a huge difference
This has been a very minor problem with Triang Railways / Triang Hornby / Hornby locos and stock fitted with the post 1964 pin point axles or silver seal wheels since 1952..... the back to back ratio is narrower than it should be.
Older stock equipped with sleeved axles don't have any issues with Peco live frog or streamline points because they are self compensating, it's just the pin point axles stock that has issues unless the back to back is corrected. There has always been back to back guage sold by model railway shops, usually made of brass, since the 1960's to assist railway modellers reset their rolling stock and locos. I've had my brass back to back guage since the 1970's.
Still available on E-bay:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-14-4mm-Back-To-Back-Wheel-Gauge-Golden-Valley-Hobbies-GVB2BOO/382336803738?hash=item59050ca39a:g:wasAAOSwfcBZksqA:rk:18:pf:0
PLEASE don't move the wheels by using a screwdriver and levering the wheels apart, instead put the locos on a solid base and get yourself a small punch and "wack" the center of the opposite side axle, this way you will not have the problem of "wobbly wheels" beleive me, this works - at least it has done for the last 65years.
HiThis is an old chestnut and still is a problem with new rolling stockThe answer is a back to back gauge made by DCC Concepts available all overtake a look at ay76 channel he has a video showing it being used on a new coachI would suggest that every item of locos and rolling stock be gauged this will stop most if not all of these probles
Any issues can be rectified. Regarding peco points I use a cutting disc (not in the minidrill) and run it through the check rails being careful not to remove too much material and checking clearance after every pass. Alternatively you could use a hairdryer and apply a little heat to the check rails then using a thin piece of metal between the stock and check rails gently persuade the check rails towards the frog.
File the point with a needle file
Good advice
Thanks for the comment Nigel, More videos coming in the Autumn.
Your Pullman carriage is by Hornby: R233 IIRC. The Hornby Pullman Brake is R234 and there was also R230 which was a Silver Seal wheeled Golden Arrow Pullman Car. I have this problem with my Hornby 1980s vintage diesels which are Ringfield engined running on modern day Peco pointwork. Not as apparent on Hornby points and Silver Seal wheels can suffer from the same problem too. Much harder to rectify this problem with those however and trying to fit 1980s vintage stock with more up to date wheels just does not work! This video was excellent - thank you for posting.
Good advice,Ii think i have the opposite problem with an old Hornby pannier tank engine. The wheels appear to be too wide apart and it struggles on 2nd radius curves and points. I have subscribed to you, please have a look at my channel.
Should be 14.4 mm, get a guage setter
ppl to quick to jump on the peco train and end up with all these problems...was given a layout with peco points on and tried to use them in a new shunting layout but had problem after problem with them even glued on more check rail but with no joy...ended up selling them...because every1 jumps on the peco train hornby points can be picked up very cheap...i rarely pay more than a pound for them.....says it all wen a stadard is availiable and no1 uses it
I am evil i am mixing mehano hornby and pico together
I use code 100 points with the metal check rail which is fine for some older stock. However I have a triang pullman which has been re wheeled, much cheaper than the Bachmann offering . I have subbed would appreciate a sub in return thanks
Hey John, I agree, I am quite satisfied with the older triang hornby stock, it's also a little more robust and as you point out, with new wheels you save a fortune. We do however treat ourselves to some new carriages every now and then. I have subbed to your channel, Cheers, Gavin