Shizzle sticks! We run into some problems on our Buick Straight 8 | Redline Update #54
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Uh oh! As Davin starts assembling the head on our Buick Straight 8 engine, he encounters a few problems that need to be resolved.
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Without the cameras, this wouldve been just a frustrating setback. With the cameras, it becomes an interesting learning tool (if not still a bit frustrating). Really appreciate Davins knowledge in these videos, always great stuff.
davin, as an engineer thank you for striking that balance between genuine technical justification for what you're doing, and how to communicate that to most of the audience without watering it down in the process. good stuff.
Yeah, but he is not trying to explain it to a Boeing supervisor! Those who say that nothing is impossible must admit that some things are extremely difficult: 1) reducing the entropy of the Universe. 2) Going faster than the speed of light in normal space. And 3) Explaining to a Boeing supervisor that 5/8 inch is 1/8 of 5 inches!
Causes me pain to remember as teens back in the late 50's early 60's we visited local junk yards with good batteries to ask to see any cars that were still potential runners but were otherwise junkers. One of our group had a large farm and we would work on those cars to hold our own wrecking races in one of his unused pastures. The only rule was 1st and reverse only, no corner hits to driver's doors, the rest was open season. God when I think of some of the old beauties we trashed - sometimes with our fathers cheering us on from atop the fence rails - I can remember using a 37 Nash Lafayette for two full summers before it finally died the death of a thousand hits. We'd all be subjects of child welfare services if we even verbalized the desire to do that today.
Sounds like a lot of fun and I bet you have some good memories of it. However thinking about all the old classics that was destroyed this way makes me feel sick at the same time.
Can you help me to connect with Real People who have a place to work on vehicles and help me get a good beater vehicle immediately?!!!!!😂
we still have kids (~15) do demo derbies in NE montana.
My friends and I did this also when we were younger. In the 1980s we used up a number of Ford Mavericks. It was thirty five years ago but the difference is that we still don't miss those cars at all!
we did the same basic thing in the late sixties we could buy cars for less then ten dollars and we would hot rod the hell its a wonder we never killed our self's
Davin is the reason I watch these. That guy is awesome. I used to be a mechanic and understand the process. He trusts himself double checks the machine shop and ends up with quality above any factory built motors. Keep it up bud. Stay blessed. Help people and keep these old cars in the road better than new. Your preserving history.
I second this!
He's very hot.
Listening and watching him mesuring to the thous of an inch, I said to myself " No way those engines were assembled with all that care and precision." The "Good enough" syndrome was in full swing ! This very engine will be the very best ever ! Kudos Davin !
I really like that you ran into this issue, because of it I learned like ten new things! The thought process behind all of that, inspiring!
Redline Updates are some of my favorite videos!!
I really like the reminder to get out in the shop and work on our own projects.. It actually gets me out in the shop!
What we see in this film is pure passion ... respect.
I really don't have the time or patience to watch the other Hagerty videos, but I would never miss one of these. Having worked on and rebuilt heads back in the early 1960s I was delighted to see Davin's discussion of the situation and the problems that can turn up when doing this work. Thanks very much for this.
@David Galea I'm in Germany and don't own a TV, so I limit my "car shows" to TH-cam. The barn-find videos generally don't interest me because the cars are not generally ones I would like and there is too much "human interest" introduced, just like in almost all US shows or videos. I am really only interested in the technology of internal combustion engines, not why someone has left a 1947 Dodge rotting in a barn.
@David Galea Those are fun cars. Enjoy it!
The Makita tools, grease and block color are coordinated. Sending this channel to my daughter as a fashion channel!
Best mechanics in the world are the ones who realize how little they know
That's a quality I appreciate in a doctor, as well.
@@johncrowley1203 In a world where everyone thinks they know everything, it's a quality we all should have.
It quality of the best people. Those who think they know the most understand the least, those that realize how little they know understand the most. I have damn near a doctorate in chemistry (health issues created timing issues so ended with masters) and it truly is amazing how you realize just how little you really know. An advanced degree helps you to ask better questions but certainly doesn't give you all the answers.
Back in the 1980’s I did this work for a living. I was trained by a shop that supplied engines to the CarQuest store I worked in. This is a good explanation of what to consider when putting a head together and watching it brought back some good memories. I left for an aviation job (and better pay, lol). I will say that spring compressor doesn’t look like something I would want to deal with on a daily basis, really clunky compared to the ancient ones we had at the time, really curvy and lots of room to work when they were in place. Enjoyed the video!👍
AngryRed Banjo, I have an old valve compressor and I was thinking the same thing about the clunky part of the one Davin is using. Sometimes newer isn’t better!
Dude the sound of that old chevy 6 starting up took me back 49 years. Had a 50 and a 51. Thanks.
My first car was a 1937 Chevy Master - straight axel, NOT knee action!
I like how clean you keep things as you work on this assembly. I teach my son the same thing. Work clean and especially if it’s going in the engine.
Great to see a real project update. Things don’t always go perfectly. That’s what makes the accomplishment so satisfying when you finally do overcome the challenge!
Man I love the video production here. Keep up the good work.
It's good to see even the best mechanics have to stop and say "hold on a minute, somethins not right here" 😎
No one is nor ever will be perfect, but the moments of "hold on a minute" makes that one is bit by bit closer to perfection.
Actually, it's ONLY the best mechanics who ever stop and say "hold on, something's not right here..."
If a mechanic never says that, he shouldn't be doing mechanic work... he's not a mechanic, just a wrench turner.
So smooth the Spring.
I had been wondering about the straight 8 engine every time I see your videos. Today you brought it back. I cannot wait to hear it run. I remember the sound of those awesome engines when I was a kid.
I really appreciate being shown the process and the set backs for this project! Davin and Ben are both masters of their respective trades here, and without the two of them I wouldn't be here. Keep up the great work!
Thank you, Davin. These lessons are immensely valuable!
Your pain is my enjoyment. Thanks for sharing, at least I can see that someone else is as frustrated in the garage as I get to be sometimes. Not as easy as it looks
Nice to see that you take the time to measure and verifying in every step what could be wrong, good luck!!
Can totally relate to this. Spent 3 years this November doing a major update on a 57 Chevy 210 sport Coupe. Complete, nicely finished car to begin with so NOT damaging the exterior finish is a major task and eliminates the "fit the panels before they're finished" opportunity. All the major stuff is done and the car is 95% re-assembled. Getting the carburetor "dialed in" has become a major pain.We converted the car to a 4 speed and it's a major chore getting it to move. Stumbles badly right off idle. Has good power once you get it moving. Haven't yet found that "sweet spot" with the step up springs, metering rods, and jets. The fuel sender is not sending proper ohm values to the gauge and they are so "cheesy" that trying to adjust the float/rheostat easily results in a destroyed device. Getting the front clip/with bumper back on and adjusted is also "kicking my ass" with things that won't adjust and/or center properly. So difficult to work with these things without doing damage to the finish. "Touching up" at this stage is a major chore. The 4 speed is jumping out of second and third gears also. Was rebuilt and on the shelf since 1986. Patience, patience, patience !!! ;o(
Actual factual knowledge and applicable tips and tricks for any era of equipment really. Love the content. True master of your craft🤘😎
A teachable moment.
I love your kid and his homework analogy... I think we call all relate at some point!
Glad to see even the experts run into problems!! Great chanel, love the videos.
I have a 51’ Buick Delux, 2 door with a straight 8!! Please do more of this video!
You can rest assured, Davin will see this through to completion as always.
A big part of why I love this channel is Davin himself- excellent at presentation,
but thorough and willing to share with us the entire process all the way through
to completion.
-Ed on the Ridge
moparedtn thanks for the reply, Ed. Looking forward to it. Just found this channel
@Bobis Vajine Without any substantive details to support your claim, I don't know how to answer you....
but we all know the straight 8 design in general was incredibly durable, why a lot of the high-end cars of the day used it.
The best channel!!!
A real “head” ache 😎
@@Rollingwrenchsnowbikes 🙄🙄
Consider looking up "my mechanics", it's an awesome channel too.
Very thorough - a good explanation of valve spring compression cycles too. Looking forward to seeing the mods and re-assembly!
This is cool. I've never heard of these engines much less seen them. Can't believe what I've been missing out on. Please keep making these videos.
This is so soothing. Better than meditation. Automotive Nirvana 😀. You learn so much.
Sucks to hit a dilemma like this but great Analysis to the problem and I’m confident you’ll fix it no problem. Can’t wait to see what you come up with I love a good engineering challenge! Good luck
Amazing! So informative. Greetings from south Africa 🇿🇦
Love watching rebuilds, always learn something new.
Ben! 6:20 Thumbs up for the time-lapse of the time-lapse. Very cool.
Thanks for sharing Davin👍
This is a great video on doing cylinder head valve spring adjustments & precautions to be mindful of👍
Technically, the way that you showed how to measure the spring pressure at 1.900" was wrong. You need to use the retainer on top of the spring when you test the pressure and add the thickness of the top portion of the retainer above the outer spring to the 1.900. This is if the retainer has a step for the inner spring, and I suspect it does. It's what keeps the outer spring located at the retainer. On another note the "washer" that you put under the spring is called a shim. You could have explained that they come in .015", .030" and .060" thicknesses. The .015 should never be used by itself and if used should be underneath a .030" or .060".
@shane The spring pads on this Buick head don't need any modification. The intake guides don't need to be cut down. The longer the guide is the better. If it were mine I'd run an umbrella seal. I don't know who recommended a positive seal but they are the most oil restrictive and I'd never use them on this Buick head. 16 umbrellas or even just 8 umbrellas on the intake only would be fine. If you find it uses too much oil or smokes go back in and put 8 umbrella seals on the exh valves. If the guides were honed to fit the valve stems there shouldn't be significant oil consumption. I'd probably fit the intake valves at .0015-.002 and the exhaust at .002- .0025. And thats on the loose side with a cast iron guides and stainless valves. I used to hone stock small block Chev V8 guides at .001- .0012 int and .0016-.0018 exh.
It's not that the .015 shim bends. It's too thin and gets torn up by the spring when used by itself.
They should have selected a valve for the intakes that didn't have a step in the stem. But if they have to use those just run an umbrella seal.
@shane If you want to get really technical, you can measure all 16 of your springs pressure at the desired install height. Some will have less pressure as they all won't have the same reading. Where you'd need .015" shim, install the weaker spring with a .030" shim. Being 5-10 lbs higher on spring pressure won't hurt anything.
Go Ben! Killing it on that timelapse!
I was going to ask how you remain so calm and patient. I can really relate to the problems your having with this head. I've been in situations where I thought I had everything perfect and realized at the very end that I didn't. My first reaction was always to yell and throw things. Maybe you edited that part out.😊
His problem is that the nearest things at hand to throw are all mega-buck tools/gauges! LOL. New shop should have a shed out back full of junk just for this purpose of relieving stress. Glass objects preferred, especially old cathode ray TV screens for their wonderfully brisk and musical breaking sound. LOL
If your tendency is to yell and throw things, then it's advisable to not work on engines that haven't been made for seventy years. There will always be issues.
Back when point systems were common we used to adjust the gap about every 3-5 thousand or less to keep the engine running right because if the gap opens or closes on you it also changes the timing screwing up the engine tune. When manufacturers started offering electronic ignition it cut down on a significant amount of fiddling and maintenance intervals to just oil & filters.
Anybody else disappointed they never showed the underside of the head?
This is such a great channel!! I really enjoy watching these builds and I always pick up new tricks along the way! Thanks and looking forward to seeing the 8 cylinder run!! Your new shop looks great by the way!!
I know you will find a solution soon to the Buick 8 engine. Keep up the great work Davin.
Shizzle sticks ! More redline update for us 😁
Loving your videos. I love the fact, you work on engines that are not the most common. I would love to se you work on somethin like Alfa Romeo dohc or similar.
I hope to have a straight 8 on my channel sometime. They are such cool engines!
Thank you for sharing the progress. 🇨🇦😎
The end of the spring with the tighter coils should ALWAYS be on the head seating surface - that way the inertia of the assembly is reduced when it opens (less pressure on the cam lobe, follower, push-rod and rocker arm) and when the valve closes there is less inertia trying to rip the valve head off the valve stem.
On this motor it is probably not going to be an issue but it is "best practice".
For example, a motor that normally red lines at 8000rpm and gets into an over-rev situation it can be the difference between surviving undamaged or dropping a valve.
Kudos for the attention to valve spring pressure. I have seen "professional" motor shops that don't even have the measuring rig.
Come on Davin, we're all rooting for you on this one!
I can't wait when you put it together and get it started the Buick straight 8 🚘☀️👍
Being a former automotive machinist I can relate to the problems here. In other words, "Been there, done that". If the new valve springs are new aftermarket and not New Old Stock they are most likely not the exact same size of the originals. This is a common problem with automotive parts made overseas. This whole job can be salvaged with the parts that are here.
To fix the problems I would do the following. Take the cylinder head back to the machine shop along with all of the valves. Have them to drive the valve guides further into the cylinder head to where the shoulder on the valve guide is about .060" above the top surface of the valve spring seat. By doing this the remaining shoulder will center the inner valve spring without any problem. This should also take care of the problem of the recessed shoulder of the intake valve and valve guide seal. Next take a valve guide cut off tool and cut the length of the guide down on the bottom side of the guide in the valve port. Use either a valve guide reamer, or a valve guide hone and run it through each valve guide just in case there may be a burr on the end of one of the guides. Next I would use a valve seat grinder and touch each valve seat to make sure the valve seats are still in line with the guide. I would not use the Serta Valve Seater to do this because it uses cutters on the seats and takes out more material than a valve seat grinder. Most likely the seats would not out of allignment and if I only had the Serta to use then I would lap each valve in seperately. Be sure to rewash the cylinder head and use a small hole brush to scrub out each valve guide to make sure no metal particles are left in them.
Most machine shops have valve guide seal installing tools and ask if you can borrow one for assembly, or ask for their advice on what to do.
Great video...we appreciate taking the ride with you over old engineering territory, learning more and more as we go. It is a shame we can't find a guy in a retirement home that could come in and show us how he did it. I expect he would have the same issues with availability of parts.
old guys always check point gap when cars stops. and have spare set in glove box. not many remember points at all. great show. love the old truck. you do nice work and tell how its done
douglas pierce, and keep a spare condenser around too.
That bites. I was all excited for this build, however it's best to find out now than later.
I wouldn't let the springs touch the guides. As the spring compresses and expands it will rub the guide. That will wear the coil and may cause the spring to break. Also, there may be metal shavings that could get into the stem seal and wear it out. Also, I would call the aftermarket valve train manufacturers and see if they have valves that meet the specs you need. It would really suck to loose a valve because the "make do" parts swap fails to live up to the hopes. Even new aftermarket valves are cheaper than dropping a valve.
I think that you nailed it. Many of the problems under the hood around the engine are often caused when some elements rub against each other and that movement wasn't planned. Well, the inside of the engine isn't the exception. Unplanned friction leads to problems.
Problems like this are easily reparable with buckets of cash.
Yes, when you order a part that was not made for the specific engine you are rebuilding, you have to make sure that it fits ALL of the parameters of your engine. The V-8 intake valves have that little step down and is a little too long for the Straight 8 valve guides. Ohh goody! I once replaced the crankshaft of my Pontiac 326. I was concerned with inviting a fatigue fracture if I reused the original crankshaft. I once helped my brother tear down an engine that failed on him. I was the one that first saw that the crankshaft was fractured! But, no new 326 crankshafts were available. The closest match at that time were new crankshafts for 1968 and 1969 Pontiac 350's that could be ordered through a Pontiac dealer. Same 3.75 inch stroke. Made SURE ALL of the other dimensions were identical! Including the anti-fatigue fillets by the bearing surfaces. Figured that if the metallurgy was good enough for the loads imposed by a 350, then it should be good enough for the 326. Been driving the 326 with this crankshaft since. The mistake I made with my first rebuild of this engine was to reuse the connecting rods. 100,000 miles later two of the connecting rods fatigue fractured. For my second rebuild, I HAD to get new connecting rods.
I was wondering about that step on the valve . Another thing I was wondering about was clearance between the valve seal and the valve locks . Really enjoy your engine videos .
It’s painful for me to see you have problems on your project. But, in the same time, I’m « at ease » to see I’m not the only one. As you said, you think you’ve done your job perfectly and something goes wrong. What a bad and frustrating feeling. I’m overwhelmed with stress. What a waste of time and money (I live in Europ and all the parts come from USA). My challenge then is how to manage this bad stress. Keep going Davin, you’re an example to me.
This video must have been shot on a Monday! :)
Great explanation of what you need to consider during a head rebuild!
Good catch on the valve guides. I would have the guides machined to fit the inner spring and cut the height down for the valve opening height. Apparently the valve guide length was't consider before when matching then up to the old guides, but at least you didn't assemble the motor and have it bind when you try to turn over the motor after the cylinder head is on.
I saw the difference in the valves and immediately asked myself if you leave out valve guide seals, if you would still be OK. I could also see the new guides were machined for seals. Many old engines did not have the seals. I knew that step would be a problem if you used seals. Seeing the diameter of your valve stems, I would guess that you'd be OK and stem flex would still be marginalized if you cut them down to accommodate the valves and seals. I've had to do that before on Harley engines built before 1975. I prefer the idea of having seals, but that missing support for the valve will limit the RPM of the engine due to stem flex. A flexing stem, can bind faster and cause a floating valve... for those of you wondering where I was going with this... leaving out the seals, it'll possibly smoke at little but it oil fouls sparkplugs over time. Still not a deal breaker if the engine is maintained at regular intervals, but the oil smoke....
Ford used a cup seal that stuck to the stem and moved up and down with the valve . Chevy used a o ring seal right below the keepers . When stem to guide clearance is right they even worked to prohibit oil consumption . To short of a guide is not a good idea.
Not gonna lie, I watch a lot of these videos, and I've seen head work in person. However I was confused when Davin kept talking about "Serdi function". Finally figured it out after a couple re-winds and saw the name of the machine at @1:34
I've had to search through the videos all the way to January to remind me where the engine came from.
So it's not just me that runs into this kind of stuff..??! ;-) Hats off for keeping a cool head. Not sure I'd be reacting the same. Look forward to seeing what you end up doing.
No, it’s not just you that runs into this kinda stuff, did you think you were special! I’ve been going through this kind of stuff for over fifty years, and I agree with you about not being sure I’d react the same way. Lol
Thank you for the videos. Keep them coming!!! I hope the hood was latched on that green pickup before you went over 45 mph.
Saludos des México!!!
This channel is awesome
Never had my hands on a Buick anything but something I do when checking installed valve spring height is to write the value on the head rather than the valve spring retainer. The retainers can get mixed up. The problem w/ putting the inner valve spring in upside down is that you will have more mass up on top where it is not needed. Valve guide problems, just trim them down a bit. Your machine shop has the tools.
.
When he showed that new 400 valve and the difference between the original style valve I thought- "Hmmm, that has multiple steps on the end of that valve" Looks like we found out what effect that had! I know the frustration of trying to find parts for weird vehicles. It makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes.
Thinking back to grade school when you did your homework, turned it in, then got anxiety over forgetting the back page...
Thanks for the flashback Davin I thought I forgot... What's next, all-nighters from college?
You could always spray weld the end of the stems and machine them back down. A bit of work but would work
warm greetings from Indonesia
I don't miss points and condenser ignition! Tune up every 15k, no thank you.
Back in the day, 15k was a lot of miles. Cars with 50k were considered high milers and by 100k they were worn out.
People just drive too much today.
Loved them but the key is a good quality dwell-tach meter to more accurately set them to allow secondary coil to perform it's function. Otherwise, yeah, you need to be a dedicated weekend wrencher.
Haha I changed a set the other day on an old Ford 240 on an Onan generator.
Hadda be mid 60s or so.
Good stuff.
@@thebigpicture2032 Yep, like changing shocks every 2 years, exhaust & points, cap and rotor too. Did all this on my Dad's Chevy Biscayne. His treasured '68 Grand Parisienne too ( gas guzzler but man, this 327 4 barrel had real oooomph ! 100 mph late Friday nights to our cottage were epic. Dad had this strange smile on his face ) !
When I was 15 in 1990 when my brother showed me how to change and set points. After all that effort the next lesson was "this is what you actually do" and we pulled the distributor out and put an HEI back in..heh (truck, so no firewall issue.)
You may wind up just using straight eight exhaust valves and save that head from excessive destructive machining. I love Hagerty so much I even bought my collector car insurance from them!!
I have a couple of 320's for them if they destroy the head. :-)
David those valve guides are excessively over engineered long so losing 300 thou won’t make a blind bit of difference to the longevity of this unit. However the second step on the replacement inlet valves is a deal breaker as far a the stem oil seals are concerned....I think you would be right to seek an alternative...stay well my friend, great series!
easy guide cutter fixes. may even swap to another seal. those old heads usually have really long guides.
I know where one of these is sitting under a tarp, looks like it has been sitting forever, but it is nearly complete and includes the trans, now I know what it looks like inside.
You have to sink all the seats to the same depth or your valve stem heights and pushrod lengths will be off.
You can farmer it and trim all the valve stems, and shim every valve differently if you really want to.
Always something! Just slather on a little JB Weld, & sand 'er smooth. (Could'a swore I heard that pro-tip somewhere!).
A new seat makes all the difference in an old truck. How I learned to drive. If you can three point turn in one of those the rest is gravy.
Dang! Two competing issues: high lift cam where you desire for this application to have all the guide length you can possibly have and valves with an annoying relief cut in the stem that sorta serves negatively to dictate both guide length and cam lift limits - shizzlessticks is right! Kinda thinking the only reason for that relief is to make spring retainers easier to insert while spring is under compression. Perhaps a feature with the best of intentions that ends up causing even more inconvenience. Oh well, You'll figure a work-around.
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Awesome :) and you forget how large some of the components are compared to the everyday car of today even high performance cars
That 50s hood !
That is the most bonkers looking engine I've ever seen!
A little late to the party but your inner valve springs problem is not the guide being bigger than the ID of the spring but you are missing a ring that goes over the OD of the guide and the inner spring sits on that ring which is about a .100 thick. The ID of the outer spring locates off the OD of the ring and inner spring is held by the outer spring.
That Chevy truck straight 6 gave me goosebumps
In my shop where we don't have all that fancy stuff, Davin, we use the WAG Method for adjusting tolerances and structural limits. Do you think the WAG Method is sufficient to build an engine that will perform adequately under normal operating conditions and not expecting optimal performance? For your viewers unfamiliar with the WAG Method, "WAG" is the acronym for "Wild Ass Guess." We also use the WAG method in accounting, shotgun aiming and invoking the term "Shizzle Sticks." In our minds; however, these are highly technical and finite applications for men of our education.
With the seats at different levels cam is going to open/close valves . Fix the seat hight.
The older engines present their own unique challenges(particularly these old Straight 8's), and yeah, it'd be easy to fire off a flurry of 4-letter sentence enhancers(I'm as guilty as anyone else), perhaps test the flight capabilities of some wrenches in frustration...but in the rnd, it doesn't solve the problems at hand. I appreciate your measured approach to challenges, and eagerly await the next video to see what/how the issues were resolved. I do wonder if these valves can be the ground on the tips to suit the purpose...but would seem that could compromise the hardening of the tip ends, much like the face of the camshaft lobes. Might be a case of custom-made valves?
Love easy fixes!!! I wonder what % have no idea what or how to set a point gap. I remember being real young and Dad had me out filing the points 🤣🤣🤣
Honestly, I don't. Why would I screw with points that wear and burn when I can buy an electronic ignition module that will be more reliable and give me more spark for under $100?
I love the look of the bed and the motor sounds! I just wish you would strip the whole truck down and rebuild it including dipping it to strip it, show how to properly patch in new metal, dip it to rust treat it, and beef up the suspension. The older vehicles were by comparison better vehicles!
Love that truck.
From working with old triumph engines i wouldn't loose sleep over not having valve stem seals, with a older head like that i am not sure if i would rather go with felt wipes to keep some of the oil from going down the exhaust. at the same time on the intake i can see the merit in seals so that the spark plug is more difficult to foul.
wonderful, you are the best
man this buick is putting up quite a fight
Hello, probably on the exhaust valves you do not need seals (positive pressure), On the intake with such ‘high’ valve guides, you could get away without seals too.....
thank you, been watching for this, P.S don't forget about us