Armies and Tactics: Oblique Order
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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In this new subseries within Armies and Tactics series, we will cover the various tactics, strategies, formations, doctrines etc. used by the generals throughout history. The first video will discuss the formation called Oblique Order and we will use the battles of Leuctra fought between the Spartans and the Thebans of Epaminondas in 371 BC, Battle of Hohenfriedberg in which Frederick the Great and his Prussians defeated the Austrians in 1745 and the battle of Friedland during which Napoleon decisively defeated the Russian army and forced Russia and Prussia to sign the treaty of Tilsit as an example
Previously we have covered Hohenfriedberg ( • Battle of Hohenfriedbe... ) and Friedland ( • Napoleonic Wars: Battl... )
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Let us know which tactics, strategies, military maxims etc. you would like to cover in future. :-) Also, support us via patreon, every single dollar is essential in making our production sustainable: www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals :-)
mmm ... maybe the Tercios formation, an elite infantry that persisted two centuries ;)
Tercios will get a separate series, whenever we reach that period. :-)
It isn't a tactics topic but i would love to see a video on the battle of Tours (a.k.a. the battle of poitiers) which in my opinion was one of the most influential battles in history and utterly decided the fate of europe. I would also like to here what you think would have happened if the Frankish King Charles Martel would have been defeated by Emir Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi and the impact I would have had in Europe as a whole?
Or possibly something like the battle of Alesia?
Will consider. :-)
-Studies military history
-Can't win a single multiplayer batte in Total War
-Resorts to Paradox games
Have you tried being a philosopher? :-)
Socrates you need Diogenes
Same here I'm just terrible at total war even if I watch loads of these😂 lol
I am also very bad at rome
@@fillprg9242 Oh god you're really terrible if you failed the tutorials. Lol! Just saying............
i am watching this in case i had an army
*insert random shitty mobile game about controlling an army*
haha you and what army :)
my clone army
It's treason then.
nofacesherlock holmes read it in emperor's voice
Here are my two cents about the Oblique Order used by Frederic and why it "usually" worked with him.
First of all, the army.
A manoeuver like the Oblique Order requires a very disciplined army, who was drilled a lot and who obeyed every order. The oblique orders would allow Frederic to cover his retreat with the troops left behind (since only his right flank would be lost) or send the said reserves to reinforce the right flank and push the enemy to the breaking point. He was lucky, as he inherited a powerful and brand new army from his father, the Sergeant-King, wich really was the strong point of an otherwise quite poor state such as Prussia.
During an oblique-order type of attack, the "refused wing" (the one that doesn't attack or whatever you call it in english) must be able to act as soon as possible,to cover the retreat or attack the enemy. Either way, the enemy must be blocked in order to succeed.
Secondly, your opponent must stay put, and in order to achieve that you need to use the terrain to your advantage. The other army won't move to support its left/right flank if he doesn't see you coming. It takes time to reform 30 000 men in a 5 kilometers wide and uneven field, time you'll have to shove him out of important positions.
If you don't know the terrain you're gonna use, you're screwed. You need to precisely know how it looks like, not only in terms of heights to cover your troops but also on the ground (is it dry or wet, will it stay still enough to bring reinforcments even after 30 000 men and horses/cannons went through it, just think a football field before and after the game and multiply it by 3000).
And remember, maps are really rare at the time, especially the precise ones, so you need to use your light cavalry efficiently, otherwise you're blind and exposed to bad surpsies, wich can cause a panic and mass rout.
Frederik knew the terrain at Leuthen, that's why his oblique attack worked there.
Let's look at the failures now, especially at Kunerdsorf.
He had already suffered a defeat at Kolin, but Kunersdorf is a complete rout.
He got cocky, and sent his army on a oblique attack, at night in the middle of August (very, very hot) through a forest (no flashlights), in order to end up in marshes and have to change once more his troops organisation in the morning. So he basically attacked then a strong russian position with a winded army.
Nothing could have been worse.
Q
Thank you for this great remark, it is well appreciated.
The quality of the enemy also plays a part. A ponderous undisciplined force is obviously more vulnerable. The Austrians did develop countermeasures to these tactics.
Epaminondas was all around badass! Invincible military leader, olympic champion wrestler, excellent hoplite soldier, civil leader, orator and pythagoran philsopher. Greatest of greeks any time like Cicero later said. Amazing character!
Thank you !*
I am always impressed by this series. But I leave the audience with some euphemisms:
No plan survives contact
Work the plan but you are not married to the plan
The enemy gets a voice and a vote
The enemy doesn't care what you are going to do it only worries what it is going to do.
Never stop the enemy when they are making a mistake.
Those military maxims are always true :-)
I've been watching your videos for a while and just wanted to say how fantastic they are. I'm very interested in military history, especially ancient and medieval battle tactics, so this new series is exactly what I look for. Plus, my Total War dominance has been incredible thanks to your detailed accounts of decisive battles!
Thank you very much! I am happy that they are helpful. :-)
I don't know how anyone can dislike your videos! You guys bring back the old history channel vibe BUT with way better quality! And that smooth voice!
Enemies, enemies everywhere. :-) Thank you very much. We want to do more and to do it better. :-)
Thank god youtube channels like this exist. I was recently scrolling through the History Channel and could not believe how dumbed down that channel has become.
Thank you very much :-)
French classical author Montaigne cited Epaminondas as among the 3 greatest men to have lived. His simple, yet incredibly smart and revolutionary tactic changed the course of History and ended Spartan hegemony over Greece in favor of a Theban one.
I am now going to use Oblique Order in my Total War games. Imagine just a bunch of those Norse raiders shredding one side to a crisp!!
Remember, it is all about the balance. :-)
You know a good day is inevitable when these talented guys post a new video
Glad to hear that. Every Thursday and Sunday. :-)
Cause they are so goooooooood
Nice job! A video on Chinese tactics could be cool. Get us all hyped up for Three Kingdoms.
There will be something prior to the Three Kingdoms. :-)
Kings and Generals with the new Total War three kingdoms?
Yep, probably.
it's about time some famous Chinese battles are covered, land of the Art of War needs some love.
I am Chinese. I think the western counterparts did better in army especially infantry formation and positioning while we benefited more from tactics like luring and trapping the opponents and punish them with superior fire and maneuvering from calvaries equipped with crossbows and later primitive rockets propelled by gunpowders. In terms of rigid formation and drilling of the army, there is still a lot to learn for our ancestors from Spartans/Roman legions if they ever had a chance to encounter them.
Man I just love these videos! I won't mention anything in particular that stood out, lest I end up dismissing or not giving the required praise or merit from the rest of the video. This video was near true perfection!
Always appreciate your feedback! Starting a new format is always stressful. :-)
Hmm that Philip II of Macedon sounds interesting ;)
Never heard of him.
Number one is MAH BOI Caesar :v
He's famous for inventing a really long pointy stick. Few before him had dared to dream that a stick could be so long and so pointy.
ltflak It pains me that you are so accurate, he also taught his horsemen to be less shitty
But failed to make his son less bratty.
Great video! I really like how you brought up Epaminondas, one of history's greatest generals. His decision to create the refused flank is one of the most important military tactics to have ever existed, as it helped determine the Battles of Bunker Hill and Gettysburg, along with various other engagements.
That was fantastic, its crazy how far tactics can change History. I especially loved how it was shown that this tactic proved worthy many years later. Then again I can listen to Devin read an encyclopedia! Great work guys, one of my favs for Thursdays!
Glad you enjoyed it. :-) starting new series is always stressful. :-)
Kings and Generals You guys nail em pretty good. This channel is the one I watch as soon as I can. Thanks guys!
Yes! Finally, somebody pronounced the damn thing Hop-li-tey!
I played Rome and Rome II and the Hoplites' cries are always "Hop-li-teys", but I didn't find any history channels to pronounce them that way. I'm not saying that the English pronunciation is wrong, the Greek way just sounds more satisfying for me for some reasons xD
Hoplitey isn't it.
That feeling remained when you did not finish school, but English was already useful to you.
Thank you very much for the information!
Great as always. I was kinda hoping for a mention of Battle of Kircholm as a variation of the oblique order (old polish order). But since you asked for suggestions, maybe you could cover the Hannibal's Cannae maneuver and how later commanders tried to copy/use it?
That is a good topic! Will consider it. :-)
Kings and Generals Consider it? It was the first of few examples how a numerical inferior army can encircle a superior force! Also Hannibal was a crap diplomat, but a virtuose on the battlefield. Cannae was only possible because of his previous battles where he used the natural terraine to ambush the romans, this led to the decision of the roman consul to deploy the army in deep ranks, fearing an attack from the left.
+Kings and Generals Hey BTW did you ever consider to create your own forum dedicated to your channel, videos, and history in general? It would be great "place" for the community and you to meet, figuratively speaking.
It would be great, although the comments section serve as such right now. Sadly these kind of comments are mostly drawned by - "first" shit and congratulations. The folks running the channel do deserve every bit of praise but I would love more discussion.
Kamil, that is a good idea, we would love to do that, as it would promote a more in-depth, thoughtful debate. The problem is, we will get fewer comments here, and TH-cam will punish us for that. But, that is definitely a plan for future.
Good job on yet another great video!
Sometimes it’s new and crazy ideas that determine the battle as seen here.
Yes, the generals need to be innovative. :-)
Can't wait to vote for a new NLP series guys! You rock on having Devin explain tactics in this channel, and I also can't wait for new content, KnG!
We are happy that Devin is narrating our videos, he is great. :-)
This is One of the top ten TH-cam channels.
I love history as well as your voice it's like watching an ASMR history.
Don't sleep. :-)
Really enjoying these more in depth videos on soldiers and tactics. Definitely didn't get this kind of stuff in History class!
There will be more. :-) Don't be hard on the teachers, they have much less time than we do.
It's a very good idea to link your content like that, for sure it makes the whole channel even more relevant!
Thank you! :-)
Such a great video, loved seeing Frederick the Great once again :).
Thank you, planning more on Frederick! :-)
1:11 also known as the Corinthian war .....The Spartans were forced to retreat from Minor Asia , where they were fighting the Persians and looting the rich province of Lydia . They basically fought against the second Athenian Alliance and a lot of their former allies , who decided to change sides . The Persians did give money to Athens specifically , so that they could rebuild their walls , which were brought down by the Spartans after the Peloponnesian war was over . The Corinthian war ended with a treaty that recognised the subjugation of Ionia by the Persians .
Brilliant. I read about this tactic a few years ago but never really understood it. Glad to see someone finally make a video explaining it. Thanks.
More on the way!
Interesting video and I think the tactic using oblique order will be more effective if one flank is well protected by natural obstacles just like how Julius Ceasar used against Pompey at the Battle of Pharsalus.
That is a good point, we will talk about it in future. :-)
Eid mubarak in advance for those who will celebrate Eid tomorrow
The Music you paired with this video is great. Please continue to use it... Love this video series and keep them coming!! Looking forward to the Philip The Great series.
We will, thank you! :-)
Worth pointing out that phalanx drift was why the place on the right was traditionally taken up by the king and his guard as the place of honour. They were the best troops and so much more likely to arrest it
Love this series!!! Keep it up!!!
More on the way!
Good work!
Thanks!
You are the best ! Not even I ( as a Greek ) didn't know many things covered in this video . Just amazing ! :-)
Thank you very much. :-) I consider myself an honorary Greek. :-)
This channel keeps getting better and better.
Thank you very much!
Just awesome as always guys. Some ideas for the future that I think would make a great story but are covered a bit less:
Admiral Yi's exploits in Korea.
The fourth Anglo-Mysore war. Tipu Sultan & the first firing of rockets in battle, what more can you ask for?
Battle of Morgarten due to the tactical changes it ushered in.
Lovely video as always - it seems like you have a different narrator on this one. I'm curious - is there a sound bank that you use for sound effects?
It is Devin - our usual narrator. Regarding the sounds, we use epidemicsound.
What you all are doing is great. I know you don't do it for free but still, thanks for your work! Love the use of Total War games to supplement each lesson.
Thanks for watching, we plan more and better content. :-)
Great video!!!! I sent one of your videos to my teacher because it was so good!
Thank you! What did he say? :-)
Good, I am happy to hear that. :-)
Very nice job. The Spartan battle was very interesting because it showed their lack of flexibility.They could only march head on? They could have blunted the attack by simply orienting the phalanx to march diagonally across the field and then advance as they always did. This would have forced the extra large phalanx to respond to a powerful 2 sided attack.It is a warning to not be too married to one tactic.
Yeah, for all their glory, the Spartans were too conservative for their own good.
Attacking from a defensive position and Naval battle tactics would be great to see !
Yes, many things are planned for this sub-series.
absolutely brilliant! it's a miniaturized ancient variable of Napoleon's favored tactic of "Defeat in detail" smash the most elite, lynch-pin unit/units that are the metaphorical heart & literal leaders of an army & the rest will either flee, or be crippled
edit: lmao I should have watched the whole video, you guys clearly saw the comparison to Napoleon as well. Well shit, I guess I'm not as observant and Brilliant as I thought lmao :/
This kinda shows how history is important to learn from and exploit to ones advantage. Alot of things stays the same also in warfare even if equipment changes and distances get bigger.
That is true. I guess, the modern warfare changed it, but still, some of the ideas moved from the realm of tactics to the strategy, hence, even the outdated ideas like Oblique Order are still learned in the military schools.
Excellent video as usual ! I agree with all the informations you gave about the greek warfare in here :) can't wait to see what you will show us about Philip II, you will have lots to say. As my main research subject I appreciate the fact you will actually talk about this king.
Thanks! The scripts look great. :-)
As a fan of history as well as strategy games (currently total war warhammer 2 lol) I love these strategy videos. I really like seeing the same tactics used in varied circumstances and time periods, as it shows better how the tactic can be used in a variety if situations. I think I would just like to see a little more emphasis on that
This is already a higher level. In order to make such videos, you need to know the world history very well. Greetings, K&G!!!!
Really enjoy this content, very glad I stumbled on this channel!
Welcome aboard! :-)
I must admit to loving the battle of Leuctra, though the excellent fantasy read of "Lion of Macedon" by David Gemmel , which is a good read. But overall a good analysis of the battle tactics of the time , and Epaminondas was a bit of a military genius for his age , lifting thebes , until his demise later against Sparta. But ultimately the phalanx had the problem of discipline, for it was its discipline that kept it together , and kept It in the fighting , but the same discipline , prevented battlefield manvevoiurs . This was a thing of course , the romans would learn from , again making there own system of changes :D
paladinbob 123 the Spartans had great discipline and order, but Epaminondas literally crushed them with his huge formation with Thebes' own 300 leading the way. The cavalry also played its part, drawing a section of the Spartans to face another direction.
yeah ..I think in david gemmels book, he has the Spartans having over confidence in there own formation and thinning and elongating there hoplite line , ready to envelope the approaching line , only to have the mass of the Theban formation to smash into it. But despite the Spartan discipline it still couldn't contain the weight of troops that pushed against it [as hoplite combat is also a matter of pushing, similar to a scrum :d] ..but either way, Epaminondas was a military commander , who when he died , the Thebans couldn't replace , which lead to there decline :D
its great how you guys have so many plans for the future
That is not even the half of it, we have literally a few hundred ideas for future videos, and there is always more :-)
you know there are some very exciting moments in persian history:battle of carrhae,invasion of egypt,campagins of safavid empire,multiple canpagins of Nader shah including the invasion of india and battle of karnal.you could cover these.
but anyway you're doing great.
thank u so much.
NOW THIS IS WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT.
Great as usual *Kings and Generals*
Thanks, there will be more! :-)
Nice new intro! :) I was very pleasantly caught off guard by it
Glad to hear it. :-)
Very good videos. Keep up the good work. You are doing the world a big service here
Thank you very much! :-)
Well done again!
Thank you very much!
το oblique order μεταφραζεται σε ;
Emperor Demetrius Ακριβώς!
Very well, for our music project we will be doing a song on Pelopidas - the right-hand man of Epaminondas.
good video , the oblique formation is a variation of the wedge formation . in the wedge the majority of the army is in the middle not in one of the flanks . the wedge is more used in cavalry" the macedonians are the first who used it " but it can be used in infantry
No, it is not a variation of the wedge. In oblique order, you refuse both the center and one of the flanks.
yes i know . but they have the same logic , mass your best troops in one side "one of the flanks in the oblique formation or the middle in the wedge" to break the enemy at that point
anyway good video
Yet again another quality video. Good Job!!!!!!
Thank you very much! :-)
Lovely comparisions, very nice video. More tactics videos!!!
Thanks, there will be more. :-)
Wow this old style was so cool
this is my favorite video no gaming channel i look forward to this every Thursday keep up the great work i can not offer money but i still wanted u to know u guys are awesome :)
cool video! i really really like the equivalence between different historical periods' warfare
Yeah, until the Modern Warfare completely changed everything, the warfare was moving in waves, from the rigid to mobile formations.
I used it to great success in Empire or Napoleon Total War online. One of the few ways I know how to attack a position.
Great job guys! Thanks for making my work day more interesting!
Thanks for watching!
I've been using that tactic for a while in total war but never knew it's name thank you
Always insightful.
We want kings and generals to cover the blitzkrieg tactics
We? :-)
Kings and Generals yes me and my brother always watch your videos😀
Ok, that is a "we". :-)
Kings and Generals hahahaha LOL:)
i join the "we"
Very nice description of Epaminondas’ strategy.
I am eager to see about Philip and Alexander innovations. One comment though. The plural of phalanx is phalanges and not phalanxes. That from a Greek and a physician (finger bones are also called phalanges)
Thank you very much, always happy to see a disciple of Hippocrates. :-)
Both versions are acceptable: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phalanx
After the battle of Leuctra, one could expect to see the spartans learn something from that defeat but they are too stubborn. Yes, this is the only way they know how to fight but if you want to prevent your enemy from winning another battle, you have to adapt to the situation and find a solution to deal with the problem.
I guess, they started to employ more cavalry after that. And also patched up the things with the Athenians and used the diplomacy more extensively. But, yes, in terms of the army tactics they kept to the traditional hoplite phalanx.
Kings and Generals They feel that they are not the same as they used to be and using the diplomacy was the right call. As for their fighting style, the hoplite phalanx is what made them so feared by the other city-states. They are amongst some of the greatest warriors of their time and even in the history.
The Spartans could have easily countered the Oblique order by withdrawing their right flank and letting the heavier Theban force be drawn in into an encirclement.
I think people still remember the defeat-in-detail and concentration-of-force video about Napoleon. Same principle seems to apply here.
Great vid
Thank you!
This video is simply phenomenal
Thank you !! Keep the great work
Thank you very much!
Brilliant Video! Splendid work once again
Thanks for the kind words! :-)
I’m always really surprised by how hard people think drilling troops is. High schoolers literally learn to march :)
I needed this for my total warhammer playthrough
Nice video. I should remember this video in the future. My thanks to those who made this video a reality.
It's really odd that you released this video. Just yesterday I was thinking about the tactic of "refusing the right." You read my mind.
those teachings are reserved
Nice work :) again !!!
Thanks! :-)
This strategy is excellent against Total War AI’s, at least as long as their army is not cavalry-heavy. As soon as you break through one flank, you can easily just push down the line along the flank and the AI is not equipped to deal with it.
Instead of using extra units, I like to use higher-quality units supported by extra ranged, artillery, or cavalry units to break one side and then use the strong melee unit and/or cavalry for the flanking attack.
Great video. I liked the previous intro better though
Which one? :-)
It seems to me that generally speaking that The Von Schlieffen Plan more or less used oblique order.
Hannibal tactics and strategies, please!
Amazing nuanced stuff once again!
interesting video I might use this.
Not for you. :-)
Can you guys do some more modern tactics like ww1, ww2 or cold war tactics?
Planning to.
Another excellent video! Nice!!
Thank you for watching! :-)
Your team make great job! I'm waiting for Philip's tactics and strategy video you mention! :)
I think I remember this battle being covered in an episode of Time Commanders.
Happy to see you here :-) Yes, they had an episode on Leuctra.
Love the channel, is unique and useful, but I really don't get this video. Can't link the problem of move to the right of the phalanx, with the advantage of putting all your forces in one side.
Thanks! So. :-) You are a general in Ancient Greece. Everyone fights the same way for a few generations: Strongest forces on the right, the battle is decided after the right flanks disperse their counterparts and meet in the center. And as that remains unchanged, the whole deal comes down to how trained and disciplined your hoplites are. But you are facing the Spartans, and you know that in terms of the quality, there are no better hoplites, so fighting them in the usual style is deadly. You do something unexpected and place your best troops on the left, at the same time you make your left 3-4 times as numerous as the Spartans. That is enough to crush them and all the other troops in the allied army retreat. Victory! All the wine and heteras are yours! :-)
I appreciate you guys actually replying to comments in order to clarify for people. That said, it really makes that whole "warrior since birth, entire social system based around warrior culture" thing look ridiculous when all of that can be bested by the enemy simply shifting their formations around. Man, the Spartans are such derps.
Damn straight. That's very true. History is filled with outnumbered and outgunned commanders using ingenious or unorthodox strategies to prevail.
Yes the guy with the awesome voice is back!
Never left, stop making that a thing.
10:03 huh... no bs you actually watched em. I haven't seen anyone pull that hat trick (or at least I've never noticed)..."here's my account history"..."see I didn't watch this one so you would notice the pattern!"
It worked. Clever
cause I'm always like pshh riiight... you watch the Great Brilliant Audible... ya shut me down b4 I even started :)
-Jake
Well, we do watch the Great Courses Plus. :-)
Please, make a video about the infamous Battle of Vienna. This is one of the most important battle in western history, and yet, there are any video about it with all the details. We desperately need a video about this battle!!!! Please, I beg you!!!!!! (Don't forger to talk about the myth of the winged hussars in this battle, who were only 13%of the total cavalry. The infantry were the true heroes!!)
We will.
Great idea for a series.
Thanks for one more wonderful video...
I don't know if you are familiar with the Rome Total War series, but, if you do, it would be interesting doing videos about each faction. Explaining each unit of their armies and their pros and cons in the battle.
I am actually a TW veteran. :-) I don't think it is a good idea to move into the gaming content, but we will give info on all of them with our videos. :-)
A great work as always
Thank you!
3:14 The first time the Spartans were defeated in a war was against the Thebians , who were the ones whose acropolis was destroyed by the Spartans some years earlier . The ancient Greeks believed that it was just that they be defeated by the only ones that they didn't respect in the war .
Love your channel ! 😍
Thank you!
Could you guys do a video on Montenergin Ottoman war?It is an interesting war and famous because of the numbers.