L12/2 Version 5 Amplifier. First impressions.

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 85

  • @MichaelBeeny
    @MichaelBeeny  2 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    THANKYOU TO EVERYONE WITH SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM. Once we have the new circuit diagram worked out, (still waiting for the kit of parts) fault finding should be relatively easy. The real purpose of THIS video was just to look and show what YOU would get if you purchased the amplifier.
    It does look like this is NOT just an upgrade but a very different L12 indeed!! We shall see!

  • @Obsfucation
    @Obsfucation 17 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

    Happy Holidays to you, Michael.
    I do have to respectfully disagree about the bias adjustment being set at the factory being not ideal for various rail voltages or just in general.
    This is not an issue for two reasons and can be good for one reason:
    First, the quiescent current set in a typical Lin topology amplifier is based on the voltage set across the VBE multiplier to provide the series base to emitter voltages required to turn on the output devices (or the drivers if it's a Sziklai output). This is unaffected by the rail voltages and the bias current is only defined by the above.
    Second, the basic operation of a BJT makes it largely unaffected by the rails since the output characteristics show a pretty constant current output. Again, the voltage across the CE doesn't change the current set by the BE voltage.
    The good reason is that the factory (hopefully and probably) has the bias set reasonably well and that allows a DIY person to avoid that adjustment being required to get good results, i.e. low distortion. Most folks don't have the test equipment and/or the experience to set the bias for the sweet spot of low distortion but, reasonably low output idle current to minimize dissipation.
    I believe that LJM made the correct design choice.

  • @x5-acousticguitarstuff.2
    @x5-acousticguitarstuff.2 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    When I was 14 years old, I made my first "Integrated Amplifier" using Kits from Dick Smith and Jaycar Electronics.
    1: ETI 480 Power Amplifier 2: Preamplifier with Tone Controls 3: ETI Power Supply Kit +/- 39Volts.
    4: Large Instrument Case. 5: Power Transformer 6: Mains Lead and Power Switch 7: Black Letter Transfer Kit.
    I am 60 Years old and I still love to Study Electronics almost everyday.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      Only 60! still a baby lol

    • @x5-acousticguitarstuff.2
      @x5-acousticguitarstuff.2 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@MichaelBeeny 61 next week.
      Yesterday I lifted a 460 Pound 900cc Road Bike that fell in a Hole next to the Road.
      A strong Mind creates a Strong Body.

    • @Poult100
      @Poult100 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I think I remember that kit! I'm 64

    • @Poult100
      @Poult100 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Did the preamp use an op amp lm380, if I remember rightly. Noisy thing!

  • @ats89117
    @ats89117 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    Not just Heathkit. Just about everything including equipment such as test instruments from HP and Tektronics came with a schematic inside the case fifty years ago...

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Very true, sadly those days of good customer service are mostly long gone. A distant memory. Much of my early test gear was HealthKit, all built from kits and always worked first time.

  • @klaushollinetz7494
    @klaushollinetz7494 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    This effect will probably go away with a small capacitor (around 100p) between the base and the collector of the VAS transistor, if missing. The other L12/2 amp boards I have, do in fact incorporate such a capacitor. Schematic is available at Calvins Audio Pages.

    • @ronschauer839
      @ronschauer839 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Yes, that was one of my first thoughts as well. When I receive the kits I will look into it.

  • @duskobikic8180
    @duskobikic8180 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

    Good to see you in regular business Michael. I wish you lots of luck and good health.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Thank you, most appreciated.

  • @cyrilmarchand237
    @cyrilmarchand237 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Hello Mister Beeny. I am glad to see you in good shape. I await your analysis of the cards with as much impatience as for an episode of Star Wars 😅
    See you soon

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Wow Cyril, not sure I can compete with Star Wars! but a very kind thought however.

  • @brianconyers6655
    @brianconyers6655 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Hi! Michael, It's good to see you back again. I was very disappointed when you announced that you were packing it in due to poor health. It's great to see you looking well and cheerful once again.
    Kindest regards, Brian

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Thank you, Brian, for your kind words. Clearly, I'm not cured but I have good days and not so good weeks! I do what I can, when I can. Good to see you here Brian.

  • @Creeptonic
    @Creeptonic วันที่ผ่านมา

    It so nice to see you kind Sir during this season of Advent ! Sending you wishes for your good health .

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  21 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา +1

      Thank YOU, much appreciated.

  • @ryanchappell5962
    @ryanchappell5962 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +10

    I agree, if you buy a kit, the diagram should be available.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      ....and it will be soon.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      Too expensive to landfill, I WILL get it going sooner or later.

  • @ryanchappell5962
    @ryanchappell5962 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    How bout that! You just saved some people from buying an unstable amplifier! Well done sir.

  • @ClausDreisig
    @ClausDreisig 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Hi Michael. It look very much like paracitic oscillation and not loop instabillity. Have seen this many times in amplifier design. Also in my own builds, I would use a small pickup coil (five winding hooked up to the scope probe) and search on the board were there problems arise. My guess is around the driver or output transistors. Sometimes the issue can be fixed by a small base resistor on the driver or output transistor. Sometimes a capacitor in series with a small resistor mounted from the base to the collector on the culprit can cure it. Claus from Denmark

  • @thegrowl8874
    @thegrowl8874 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    shout out from Philippines!!! advance merry Christmas sir mike...

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      I hope you in the Philippines and my viewers from all over the world also have a good Christmas and everyone LIKES my video. That's all I need for Christmas!

  • @duskobikic8180
    @duskobikic8180 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    I have identified exactly the same problem of oscillation at the positive side of the waveform in L20SE. LJM didn't bother addressing the problem. He simply switched to Chinglish, pretending the problem doesn't exist. All LJM cares is to keep his product sales up and to keep his customers in dark.
    All my LJM products ended up in the bin.

    • @ronschauer839
      @ronschauer839 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      I suspect that you are right about LJM and have observed what you referred to (denial) on the DIYAudio forum.
      I made a number of changes to the L12/2v4 boards I have used in my stereo for a couple of years and do like them.
      However, as originally supplied they were, frankly, not all that good.
      One of the changes was to add Mike's (and Calvin Audio's) QI adjustment, which is a MUST-do change.
      However I have also reduced the overall gain (it was FAR too high), changed most of the components at the input, and so forth.
      This is the primary reason I buy kits rather than finished boards, and always trace out the schematic from the bare board even in the odd occasion when a "representative" one is supplied.
      As Mike says, with these sorts of kits, you are pretty much on your own.

  • @laurynaslauris9677
    @laurynaslauris9677 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Hi. Mr. Beeny. You should ad ceramic capasitors 100nf across the power rails as close as posible to power transistors. That should solve your problem. Good luck!

  • @aidysas
    @aidysas 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Very informative video 👍👍👍👍👍

  • @fredcailloux2526
    @fredcailloux2526 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Hello Mr Beeny! You look healthy! I'm an early buyer and purchase a kit few days after his announcement by LJM on DIY forum, for now I just test the transistor they supply using a PeaK DCA 75 Pro curve tracer and I'm not happy with the result at all. Before I attempt to replace all of them with better one, I will wait for you and your friend Ron conclusion. Let's hope you both save the day "again" but my confidence in some LJM resellers is pretty low for now.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      We will do our best for everyone. At present we are still waiting for delivery of the kit version.

  • @claudiusdan6165
    @claudiusdan6165 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Hello,
    Nice videos, thanks!
    Regarding the issues you pointed out:
    - Oscillation: based on the V4 schematic the supply decoupling capacitances are only 100u elcos. You use rather thin and long wires so, in my opinion, you should add some at least 1000u elcos and 100n ceramics. This will make true the power supply AC short circuit assumption.
    - Setting the power stage idle current may be independent of power supply voltage depending on the way the driver stage is biased. If the driver uses constant current the output actually copies it in a multiplied version. In V4 the driver is biased from VBE/R current generator that is supply voltage independent. It also has the advantage that the current decreases with temperature.
    - I didn’t make any calculations nor any simulation but maybe 15V supply is too low…
    I’m eagerly waiting for the updated schematic to check my assumptions.
    Thanks again,
    Claus

  • @cobar5342
    @cobar5342 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Great to see Michael. I have just finished the version 4 (after seeing your video) with known name capacitors and 1% resistors and about to complete the construction. It will be interesting to see how V5 turns out. From across the Tasman

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Me also, I really want this to be good, preferably better than the original version. If it's not better, what's the point?

  • @ronschauer839
    @ronschauer839 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Stay tuned... 😁

  • @peterlarkin762
    @peterlarkin762 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    First thing I'd try is some 100nf caps decoupling both power rails on the board. And it looks like there aren't any miller compensation caps on the outputs. Not always needed but maybe in this case.

    • @ronschauer839
      @ronschauer839 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      I always add ceramic decoupling caps across power rail caps as a general practice. Unfortunately this looks like something else entirely, but we will see...

  • @bloothedog4443
    @bloothedog4443 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Good to see you!

  • @Poult100
    @Poult100 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Interesting fault 🤔 Looks like ringing.
    It reminds me of a power amp a friend and I built which, we realised was also a transmitter, when we turned a MW radio on in another room and heard the music we were testing our amplifier with!
    We reckoned that the speaker cables were ringing and it was cured by putting an inductance in series with the output. It was a low value which didn't affect the audio frequency range, but detuned the cables.
    Worth trying to see if it cures your instability. If it does, I'd try changing the upper output transistor first, seeing as it is the positive half wave which is affected on your amp.
    Good luck!

  • @beamer.electronics
    @beamer.electronics วันที่ผ่านมา

    Interesting, it could be: Supply decoupling, Miller effect issues and/or circuit layout! All the best.

  • @Чемы
    @Чемы 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Это очень интересно! Надеемся на хороший результат!

  • @larrygaines7462
    @larrygaines7462 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    My tpa3255s monoblocks @ 50vdc into 8 ohm . Running 2years continues to perform great

  • @Shanachie707
    @Shanachie707 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    It might be set at a Voltage +/-50V as in the data sheet power output is shown at this setting

  • @larrygaines7462
    @larrygaines7462 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I remember kits from layfayette, heath , hafler and learned a lot. Then tv and speaker technology.

  • @ConorHanley
    @ConorHanley 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Oh dear, presumably they tested the new 'improved' L12/2 before building to sell. You'd hope/think so but that's rather an issue if its not jut your pair being faulty though both having the same problem rather discounts anything but faulty by design or very poor manufacturing quality control. Good thing we have you to inform the world ⛔

  • @ianhaylock7409
    @ianhaylock7409 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    As you have the circuit diagram, you could always enter it into Microcap. That will enable you to easily change components and analyse the difference they make without having to touch a soldering iron.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      We don't yet have the circuit. As explained in the video, we are waiting for the kit version to arrive. It's easier to reverse engineer a blank PCB than one already assembled.

    • @ianhaylock7409
      @ianhaylock7409 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@MichaelBeeny LOL Shows how well I listen these days.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@ianhaylock7409 I never even thought for one moment that could be true Ian.
      lol

    • @ronschauer839
      @ronschauer839 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      I prefer LTSpice for simulations, and traditional CAD for formal schematics. Unfortunately we do not have the schematic quite yet, but stay tuned...

  • @ClausDreisig
    @ClausDreisig 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Just to wrap up. If you have the schematic, it would be a good idea to simulate the open loop gain and phase margin. This is fairly easy done in LTSpice. You can send me the schematic and I can do ii for you. Think there was a comment on the miller compensation that was missing?

  • @silvano2010gomes
    @silvano2010gomes 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Zobel Boucherot network filter is missing from the output

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Yes, it is missing. I will add one later. Not the cause of this problem as I am only feeding into a resistive load. No inductance at all.

  • @jameswarren1831
    @jameswarren1831 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    How much is shipping from the Diyaudio store in the states? It might be nice to have some guaranteed stuff to build.

    • @cobar5342
      @cobar5342 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      There is no need for DIYAudio in this case.
      Shipping from Aliexpress is very reasonable

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@cobar5342 Post free (well, included) in some cases.

    • @jameswarren1831
      @jameswarren1831 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @ The point is getting a quality product that works, free shipping doesn’t repair the defect.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@jameswarren1831 Very true James, both Ron and I are working on a solution right now. I hope it will not be long before we have a solid solution. The boards we were waiting for have arrived today, that's a good start!

  • @sc0or
    @sc0or 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Greetings. I wonder aren't buffer capacitors to small for its power? An idle current stabilization transistor is also under a question: why doesn't it touch a heatsink?

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      We will know the answer as soon as we are able to reverse engineer the circuit. However, on face value the decoupling caps do look a little small.

  • @Thewatchinglad
    @Thewatchinglad 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you.

  • @reverend11-dmeow89
    @reverend11-dmeow89 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you for visual confirmation the two 30V 10A power supplies I chose hook positive on one to negative on the other as Ground for my +-15V dual supply analog audio projects.
    Does Negative on the 3.3V & 5V supplies hook to the same or kept separate for mixed signal circuits for Audio with MIDI Digital power supplies?
    I ask as before I built my own with 78xx & 79xx supplies.
    And now there's more I need to understand Digital vs. Analog on PCBs I need to learn.
    Thank You, Sensai
    I am all cornfussed re. Equipment Chassis, Circuit, Analog, Digitalx, and Line Grounds.
    ARRRRRRGH

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      The extra supplies tend not to be able to link to other voltages. They all differ from one and another.

    • @reverend11-dmeow89
      @reverend11-dmeow89 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @MichaelBeeny Thank You, Master, it is Ground that concerns me, rules for Breadboard vs. PCB mostly, realizing Audio vs. Data Ground in Mixed Signals circuits is a different sort from Mains vs. Chassis vs. Circuit (any I missed) Grounding.
      I learned a harsh lesson repairing a Tapco mixer that had a very creatively backwards bent DIP IC upside down underneath the PCB , which my infinite wisdom said, "Hey, let's Really get this grounded," and proceeded to hook Chassis Ground Directly to the plus/minus 15 Volt Circuit Ground.
      Now this 40 year break in between then and now sidetracked away, so it's super important I get the Whole Holistic Grounding perspective before I design ANY PCB, ever.
      Tapco now Mackie was nice enough to provide schematic for it.
      Even when they told me it had to have been bastardized from parts Only accessible from an employee there, since the chassis paint job never hit the street.
      The second the soon to be ex-husband of my sister's band plugged it into way more power amp rhan I had, which was instantly depowered before the Chassis hum blew some speakers.
      Yeah, he was the Bass player with wandering pants.

  • @reverend11-dmeow89
    @reverend11-dmeow89 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    I couldn't or didnt catch, Linear or Switched-Mode power supplies for this testing?
    My brain got really intrigued when the upper half shows the issue while not in the lower.
    Also, what is actual upper peak V vs. lower peak V? I can't read the scope on my phone. ;-]

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      My test power supplies are SMPS but will eventually be powered with a linear supply.

    • @reverend11-dmeow89
      @reverend11-dmeow89 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@MichaelBeeny ah, a Clue, perhaps, with no backing to say yay or nay at the moment. It was the totally unrelated title of the first post about the same board in my search for reasons why that effect would occur, sir.
      I am wondering if 0V isn't really balanced, causing the positive V pushing something into oscillations I can see the more power being output, it is oscillating somewhere, but I don't see its actual schematic, the whole point. ;-)
      Title unrelated to most of its content.

    • @Douglas_Blake
      @Douglas_Blake 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@MichaelBeeny
      I was thinking the same thing .... that positive half cycle "fuzz" looks a lot like current limiting from an SMPS. Simple test ... swap power supplies and see if the problem moves to the negative half cycle.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@Douglas_Blake Those power units can supply 10 amps. If they go into current limiting a red LED comes on and the voltage collapses. With a 45 volt supply, I was only running 15 watts into 8 ohms. A million miles from 10amps, and of course it was a single amplifier only being driven. I can understand why you would consider this point, however. I will double check tomorrow. Nothing can be ruled out .

    • @Douglas_Blake
      @Douglas_Blake 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@MichaelBeeny
      I agree... it's kind of out there. But it wouldn't be the first time I've forgotten to release the current limiting on my power supply and spent half of my lunch hour puzzling it out.

  • @reverend11-dmeow89
    @reverend11-dmeow89 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Heathkit was a huge step up for me with their Intersil-based multimeter kit and Analog & Digital Electronics (separate packages) training kits.
    Two weeks hernia repair time-off gave me TMS9900 college training package and HP41C with electronics plugin was blast-off.
    Then damned DOS then Windows support & test in Micro$oft jobs took over to pay bills.
    It has taken over a decade to undo the damage from the latter.
    Now I have to fight over scam parts.
    Do you have any tips for testing transistor types and their friends for actual functionality compared to alleged datasheets that are passed off as theirs, what are the important parameters for matching pairs used in these sorts of circuits?
    At 69, i feel 17 years old all over again coming home to my intermediate-level electronics workbench.

  • @thegrowl8874
    @thegrowl8874 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    dont throw it sir if you dont like send it to me here in Philippines

  • @glennlove461
    @glennlove461 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    start looking for oscillation at rails and then each device.. easy fix

  • @larrygaines7462
    @larrygaines7462 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Fans and cool operation costs the least of all your gadgets.
    No brainer.

  • @etiennecahurel4584
    @etiennecahurel4584 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    traduction ia insupportable

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Sorry, I have no control of any translation. This is auto generated by TH-cam.

    • @andymouse
      @andymouse 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@MichaelBeeny Tolly wibble screnvo ? LOL ! heyop dribble furdemstil 20 mW @1 swiktoggle !

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  2 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      @@andymouse Did I say that?? I think I needed a coffee.

    • @andymouse
      @andymouse 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@MichaelBeeny :)

  • @Robert-ps8fj
    @Robert-ps8fj 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Good Day Mr. Beeny and I am a DIY audio amplifier lover from the Philippines and one of your subscriber,,Sir Is a linear power supply a good power supply for a diy digital amp?.

    • @MichaelBeeny
      @MichaelBeeny  3 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      SMPS are much better in regulation but for reliability I will always use a standard transformer type SP. For many people fixing a SMPS is a nonstarter. Most people could probably fix a standard power supply, little to fail in the first place. Welcome to my channel.