Fire in cargo compartment | National Cargo Boeing 747-400 | Tokyo Narita, ATC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- THIS VIDEO IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE FOLLOWING SITUATION IN FLIGHT:
29-JUL-2021. A National Cargo Boeing 747-400 (B744), registration N756CA, performing flight NCR891 / N8891 from Tokyo Narita International Airport (Japan) to Seoul Incheon International Airport (South Korea) during climb out of Narita Airport, about at 27000 feet, reported about fire indication in a cargo compartment, declared an emergency and requested return back to Narita International Airport. After landing the aircraft stayed on the ground for about 4 days.
PART OF TEXT VERSION OF COMMUNICATIONS THAT I'M ABLE TO INCLUDE HERE. Do you want more? Write in comments and I'll give you remaining part of text communications (Read if subtitles in video were fast):
NCR891: National Cargo 891, with you climbing FL210 for FL240 and requesting flight level about FL370.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, Tokyo Control, say again requested altitude.
NCR891: We request… I’m sorry, let’s change it to FL340.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, climb and maintain FL340.
NCR891: Okay, 340, National Cargo 891.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, cleared direct to SAPRA, S A P R A, SAPRA.
NCR891: Cleared direct to SAPRA, National Cargo 891.
NCR891: And ATC, National Cargo 891, we got a fire cargo aft warning, we’d like a vector back to Narita.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, sorry, say again, please.
NCR891: Can you give us a vector back to Narita at this time?
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, say again.
NCR891: No go down. Yeah, get a vector back to the airport.
NCR891: To Narita, National Cargo 891.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, say again your request about the airport.
NCR891: Yeah, we’d like a vector back, we’re declaring an emergency at this time. We’ve got a fire cargo aft. And we’d like to return to Haneda or Narita.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, confirm, you request back to Narita Airport?
NCR891: That’s affirmative.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, do you accept close vector or… Which you accept?
NCR891: Say it again.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, do you request close vector to go back to Narita or…
NCR891: That’s affirmative, short vector.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, turn left heading 180, vector to Narita.
NCR891: Heading 180, vectors to Narita, National Cargo 891.
COMMENTS: About 9 seconds later.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, Tokyo Control.
NCR891: Yes, sir, we got a fire cargo aft and we’d like vectors back to the nearest airport.
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, conform, do you request return back to Narita?
NCR891: That’s affirmative, National Cargo 891.
CONTROL: Roger, request reason.
NCR891: We’ve got a fire cargo aft.
CONTROL: Confirm fire alarm in cargo?
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, confirm, do you request emergency landing?
NCR891: Emergency landing, that’s correct.
CONTROL: …
CONTROL: National Cargo 891, roger, descend and maintain FL180.
COMMENTS: We’re unable to hear the controller in the next short part of communications. But it’s easy to understand what they were talking about from the words of pilot. Continue watching.
COMMENTS: Pilot was instructed to turn on heading 180 and to maintain FL180.
------ This is maximum I can write here. Do you want more? Write in comments and I'll give you remaining part of text communications -------
THE VALUE OF THIS VIDEO:
THE MAIN VALUE IS EDUCATION. This reconstruction will be useful for actual or future air traffic controllers and pilots, people who plan to connect life with aviation, who like aviation. With help of this video reconstruction you’ll learn how to use radiotelephony rules, Aviation English language and general English language (for people whose native language is not English) in situation in flight, which was shown. THE MAIN REASON I DO THIS IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY EMERGENCY SITUATION, EVERY WORD AND EVERY MOVE OF AIRCRAFT.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL, LICENSES AND PERMISSIONS:
Source of communications - www.liveatc.net/ (I have a permission (Letter) for commercial use of radio communications from LiveATC.net).
Map, aerial pictures (License (ODbL) ©OpenStreetMap -www.openstreet...) Permission for commercial use, royalty-free use.
Radar screen (In new versions of videos) - Made by author.
Text version of communication - Made by Author.
Video editing - Made by author.
HOW I DO VIDEOS:
1) I monitor media, airspace, looking for any non-standard, emergency and interesting situation.
2) I find communications of ATC unit for the period of time I need.
3) I take only phrases between air traffic controller and selected flight.
4) I find a flight path of selected aircraft.
5) I make an animation (early couple of videos don’t have animation) of flight path and aircraft, where the aircraft goes on his route.
6) When I edit video I put phrases of communications to specific points in video (in tandem with animation).
7) Together with my comments (voice and text) I edit and make a reconstruction of emergency, non-standard and interesting situation in flight.
OMG that was painful. My husband is from Tokyo and I’m used to hearing English spoken with a japanese accent, and even I could not understand the female controller. What a dangerous situation.
This is just awful. Think about the time wasted. So glad they landed safely.
Imagine using proper icao like mayday mayday to expedite emergency
@@carlosflores9876 exactly… MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY!!!
CARGO FIRE! REQUEST IMMEDIATE VECTORS BACK TO NARITA, STANDBY FURTHER INTENTIONS…. Get the information out their properly gentlemen. Not the USA, so use clear and concise communications… this was brutal to listen too.
@@carlosflores9876 They did declare emergency. There the transponder (squawk code) is changed to 7700 which shows up on the Controller's screen as EM. You can see the "EM" in red.
Declaring an emergency via transponder is used if the plane is hijacked. The Controller will see the "EM" without the pilot saying the words. Squawk 7500 = Hijack. Squawk 7700 = Emergency.
The Controller asks for haz mat, souls and fuel; this is standard questions that are relayed to the emergency crews on the ground.
I'm really surprised at the poor English at Narita. I wasn't a pilot, but as a Naval Aircrewman we were in and out of Japanese airports all the time. Communication was never an issue.
@Chuck Yeager Yes she would… because that’s what she was trained for.
The language barrier here is terrifying. Glad everyone is okay.
I was going to say the same thing. Without the English translation I would have only understood 10-20% of the what ATC said in English. I am shocked at the level of English spoken by her.
I agree that is the REASON the need to say loud , MADAY, MADAY, MADAY
Yep, and it's actually a recent issue in that area as a few months ago, ATC duties for that flight path transfered from the US Air Force controllers at Yokota Air Base (located right around where he declared emergency and turned left) to Narita ATC. Before, pilots mostly talked to the Yokota controllers after departing Narita or Haneda air space, but not anymore. Now there are lots of new controllers not used to the busier and larger area and large numbers of non Japanese crews in it.
Language Barrier is unsatisfactory!
problem is: Japanese is the national language
Have to wonder if ATC might have been quicker to grasp the nature of the situation and get them back on the ground if he'd started out with "mayday mayday mayday."
Pretty sure she would‘ve asked „Please repeat?!“
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Or at least pan-pan call.
But then, she would ask the nature of the emergency...I agree that it should be in one sentence " mayday mayday mayday, fire on board, fire on board, request direct to Narita"...end of confusion
Exactly. He actually seemed to be testing her vocabulary rather than communicating clearly.
If it were that easy Rosetta Stone would go out of business overnight. This lady could not understand or clearly speak English and should not be working as ATC. Saying Mayday would likely not have helped a lick
I know the ATC's English comprehension was limited, but why couldn't the pilot have been more direct and clear? He should have said something like this:
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday.
National Cargo 891. We have a fire onboard. We need to return back to Narita immediately.
Emphasize "immediately" and keep repeating until ATC understands.
Yup it’s called using proper icao phraseology.
Problem is apart from non-standard ICAO (although I couldn‘t complain about the pilots) that most asian pilots/controller are only capable of speaking ICAO phraseology, in emergencies sometimes being able to talk plain language helps.
The initial delay in getting vectored and then getting what appears to be a circuitous route to the airport is somewhat reminiscent of the Avianca 707 crash near JFK, in which the crew were insufficiently clear and assertive. Thankfully the outcome here was a good one.
Yes...but the pilots duty is to Aviate, Navigate and communicate in that order. They are flying the aircraft, trying to understand what is wrong, working through checklists and dealing with the emergency itself. They don't have time for a chat on the radio nor do they have time to answer repeated questions about what they've already answered or stated. The problem here was an ATC service well below what is required.
@@russefrance4869 Exactly, that's why I gave a short concise example of what he could have said to get the point the across. Code words like "Mayday" are designed to eliminate chitchat in an emergency. But instead the pilot babeled on for at least 2 minutes, probably a lot longer, going back and forth with ATC trying to think of every possible way to describe the situation without using the word "Mayday". Mayday is the correct declaration. Any pilot who can't declare a Mayday in an emergency, should give up his pilot's license. Because he is too incompetent to be flying a plane.
Also , some 747’s ( BCF versions) are notorious to issue false cargo fire warnings due to the air sampling fire detectors getting clogged up by fine air particles. Nevertheless, pilots must adhere to all fire warnings of course.
I departed behind these guys and heard part of this on frequency until we were transferred. Glad they got back on the ground ok!
Fire onboard = Mayday x 3 and immediate diversion. If you don't get what you need immediately, tell them what you are doing, no more asking. They flew straight over Haneda. Did they learn nothing from UPS crash in Dubai due to lithium battery fire???
The lithium based fire was horrendous and tragic. I remember the Avianca and the UPS disasters well, unfortunately . And then we have the air canisters in the Valuejet crash. Very sad. I have as a flight attendant to Narita, language barrier is difficult. But the female ATC was speaking so low and didn't grasp the situation. I am shocked by the miserable communication. Mayday x3, a much better call.
Exactly. Don't ask, do. Declare mayday and then execute your intentions. Yes it's congested airspace, but that's ATCs problem to scramble around.
I couldn’t agree more. Heck there is a USAF base (Yokota) in that vicinity with a great ARFF department that they could have landed at. National flies cargo to that base, so there is some familiarity. They wouldn’t have had a language barrier had they diverted there.
@@luisf4077 yes I was thinking of Yokota AFB too... And yes, they'd have the plates and familiarity for it because it is one of their scheduled destinations. Had this been an actual Li battery fire, these delays would have likely been lethal..
Only one thing, a 747 won't be able to descend 12000ft in 1 or 2 miles so Yokota and Haneda would both be debatable options as by the time they can achieve a relatively stable approach, they would have been basically able to fly to Narita in that time anyway. Can't remember which accident it was but the pilots got flak for not landing at a closer airport but they were literally at like 25000ft when they overflew said airport...
Legend says they are still requesting an immediate vector back to the nearest airport...
with non native english speaking ATC, the pilot should have said MAYDAY x3! he did not say he had an emergency until the controller finally grasp the situation, he should have mayday and turned around
This exchange … wow. Just declare MAYDAY and say “we have a fire onboard!” No need for cargo, aft, etc. “We got XXX souls onboard and XXX kilos/hours of fuel.” Painful.
I'm glad this had subtitles. That woman should not be working ATC and the pilot should have declared an emergency or a mayday, slowly and clearly.
And the pilots should go back to ICAO class and relearn "STANDARD international phraseology"
@@rinjing01 I agree, when speaking to someone who is not fluent in English, "we have a fire indication in the aft cargo area" isn't the best way to convey the message.
An aviation nightmare. A pilot and an ATC, neither of whom can speak the English language properly.
Indeed poor skills from the female ATC, but the pilots sure did not help her.
Hell, is it so difficult to say "Affirmative" in stead of "affirm" and be more clear about "aft" ?
I couldn’t understand a word she said.
I think it was Avianca 52 crash in NY due to fuel exhaustion. The pilots had a language barrier as well. Never declared a mayday and were not clear expressing the severity of the fuel situation. Clearly the language barrier was big here and probably still would have delayed conveying info like fuel left, hazmats etc. But not saying "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" with a fire warning is bizarre to me. That's universal and likely would have gotten a more experienced controller much more quickly.
Yeah, I was thinking of that too. Saw the Mayday episode about it. The pilot was under the impression "priority" carried more significance in English than it does.
@@nerysghemor5781 That's it...I couldn't think of the word he was using instead of emergency or Mayday. It was "priority".
They are Americans, so have a speech speech impediment, can't say mayday. Can't say knipex, Knud, Vettel or Kvyat either!
@@leifvejby8023 I can say all of those! 🤪
@@nerysghemor5781 I'm impressed, I normally hear them pronounced more than a bit like kanipex, fettel and kiviat.
The time they took not understanding each other due to her not understanding the universal aviation language (English) was valuable time lost and could’ve been catastrophic if the emergency was much worse!
My thoughts exactly.
Is that the best they can do over there? You’re absolutely right this could’ve been bad due to her language restrictions.
Would be nice if more American pilots used standard ICAO language. From my own experience, if you mention Mayday Mayday to the Japanese, they will get on the vectoring right away . With a lot of us flying in the Far East, the simpler and more standard the language the better.
@@mrrobotnica Yes, in other non-English speaking countries they really should have stuck with standard ICAO. The pilot should have used MAYDAY 3 times, that would have saved time. The 1st Japanese controller had a very heavy accent but I've heard a lot worse is places like France and Turkey.
The piss poor non-icao phraseology used by the pilots is to blame for that. Not the controller. If they had used proper phraseology they would have understood and been on it. Tokyo control is top notch.
Wow. Plenty of missed opportunities for better communication from both sides.
Exactly… the pilots didn’t use standard phraseology and seems immune to the challenges their accents and wording delivered to the controllers!
If this had been a serious fire I believe that language barrier would have been the major cause of a fatality
Yes, if US pilots used proper ICAO English, this could have (and would have) been handled far better. ICAO phraseology is what controllers all over the world learn, are tested on, and understand. Not using it like these dangerous clowns can cost lives. It would help enormously if the FAA and FCC required the same standard of English as the rest of the world.
"MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, National Cargo ait niner wun, Cargo fire, returning Narita, course nnn degrees, descending Flight Level nnn Initial, then to arrive at localiser for 16 right at n Tousand feet, six souls on board, landing with nn tonnes expected fuel, hazmat lithium batteries, National Cargo ait niner wun" would have been clearly understood if spoken clearly and concisely. Transponder to 7700. Job done. Then talk about emergency vehicles and how to handle inspections on the way back.
@@phillee2814 atc should still be able to understand simple english sentences imo
@@help3102 Like it or not, ICAO vocabulary is all they are required to learn and understand, not conversational English.
@@phillee2814 Don't like it, lol. English is as close to an international language as the worlds ever going to get to. Chances are pilots are going to know English at international airports.
@@HarshL Many international airports deal mostly with domestic flights, and even ab initio training, which will all be in the local language. Air carriers' pilots will probably know English, at least ICAO English, but no more than that, and controllers are only required to learn the ICAO phrases. But ALL will understand a Mayday call, and give space for it to be dealt with, even if they don't have full situational awareness.
I'm ENGLISH and I had to learn ICAO English, the correct use of the terminology, and when some words should never be used except under specific circumstances. I even had to pass an examination in it.
That was obviously far easier for me than for a US pilot or air traffic controller, judging from the complete shambles I hear on the air band radio frequencies in the US. When I did my FAA licence, English was pencil whipped with "you're a native English speaker, so that's covered."
ICAO English only, anywhere and everywhere, and there will be no difficulty being understood. Throw in conversational English and you just muddy the water and impeded safety.
It took more than 4 minutes from declaring emergency for the aircraft to start turning in towards final.. Clear and precise phraseology would have made a world of difference, as well in this situation simply make the turn you need, right 180 direct to final... then deal with ATC..
No judgement here, have been flying long haul(cargo) for 30+yrs, lot in the east, beginning couldn't understand a thing Mumbai, the Chinese, Japanese and SA etc were saying, learned over the years in case of problems to just state situation and requests very SIMPLE and UNIVERSAL. The Americans have a tendency to keep speaking like they are talking to their neighbors, while Brits and Aussies fall back to "simple' English. Afterwards you can explain, apologize etc if needed, just get the damn safely plane back on the ground. Mayday mayday followed by divert to airport...request vectors etc will do the job in most countries. If not its time to take charge and start heading towards the diversion airport and keep a good look out, fill out the forms on the ground with a cold beer.
"We have an emergency and need to go back" how is this not clear and direct?
Has the time of the recording been chopped?. How long from first report of the fire until landing?
Pilot had to say “MAYDAY” and “REQUEST”.
All Japanese can understand by only saying "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, possible fire onboard, request return to Narita airport !".
I know that, because I AM JAPANESE(ﾟ∀ﾟ)
First comment I found that emphasized the word "request". This comment needs to go up.
Mayday, Mayday, Mayday. Fire on board. 8-9-1 Asking Return to NA-RI-TA, 8-9-1.
Wow! This is so painful to hear. All fault with the initial misunderstanding and delay is on the flight crew. It’s as simple as “mayday, mayday, mayday” and “fire”.
So many crew don’t understand that most controllers barely speak English and anything nonstandard is often misunderstood. It’s obvious that the female controller didn’t understand and thats why another controller came on. Also, “emergency” is no longer standard phraseology, and “fire cargo aft” has two words more than necessary.
Of course I’m preaching to the choir.
WOW, I'm amazed the pilots can understand those controllers. And the controllers seem to have extreme difficulty understanding English since they keep asking the plane the reason for the emergency.
ATC was doing their job, the pilots were just awful on the radio. Japanese controllers are great, but you NEED to use correct phraseology with air traffic control. This is like a surgeon asking his assistant “hand me that cutting thingy” instead of using it’s actual name.
@@joeriegel7411 English is my second language and I could barely understand what the ATC was saying. I could only catch a few words of each sentence. The pilots were using clear english. The said fire and declaring en emergency. Controllers should understand basic English, not only certain words like a machine.
@@Chasman2010 The pilots are speaking conversational American, not ICAO English, which is what the controller is trained and tested in and will understand.
They ain't in Kansas anymore, Toto.
@@phillee2814 regardless of what phraseology the pilots are using the controller is virtually impossible to understand even with subtitles
Who in the world could understand her language 😆
This is what ICAO English standard phraseology is designed for. No such thing as an Emergency outside of FAA land. Declare MAYDAY or PAN. Otherwise you are asking the ATC to interpret your problem and prioritize it as a MAYDAY procedure. Give the controller just enough information to get what YOU want.
Exactly. I don't think there would have been any communication problems if the flight crew had been from any other English speaking country. The root cause of this would be that the FAA doesn't use ICAO Aviation English. In America, "Mayday", "Pan-Pan" and "Emergency" all mean the same thing with "Mayday" and "Pan-Pan" only being used by the international crews.
What other commenters complaining about the "lack of English by ATC" refuse to comprehend here is that the Japanese controllers *would not have their jobs* if they did not gain a high enough proficiency grade on their AELP tests. Those controllers do know English. They are proficient enough in the language to do what is required of the job, which includes handling mayday flights.
This issue is 100% the fault of the crew because they did not use the correct terms.
people actually complaining about the pilot's english, just google UPS Flight 6.
She has what is known as a regional dialect problem. Her native language has voice inflections in it which are difficult to overcome. It takes specialized linguistic training to eliminate the inflections. She should not be working in such a critical position.
No, no, no…. This is not just a matter of accent. She doesn’t understand plain English
there's some controllers in new york that have the same issue lol
She would not be in the position if she had not passed ICAO level 4 examination multiple times
It's always called accents and inflections but those who knows how English in Japan is taught knows it's not matters of accents and skills. It's...something I've never seen elsewhere. Like a human Google Translate game than actual English.
@@V1RT8 You're right, she probably does not. She was trained to understand ICAO English, which was not what the pilot was speaking.
1. Glad this worked out but surprised by the amount of wasted time here.
2. MAYDAY x 3 would have helped this crew. How many times did the crew explain the emergency..anything after the first is too many when you think you are on fire.
3. HAZMAT - Lithium batteries on board…I would have wanted to be on the ground ASAP. The flight track is over some populated areas.
4. Takeaway - This is a great teaching moment/video to make sure comms are accurate between all parties and priority is given as necessary. It’s easy to 2nd guess from the ground as opposed to being in the thick of it…everyone did a good job here as all are safe, but in my opinion it could have been much better.
Agree this is the prime example why you declare a mayday or pan pan instead of a emergency. ATC controller handed off to a slightly better english speaker. Surprising how broken their english was for being such a busy area to control.
3 - over some populated areas
my fucking apartment
For that must be frustrating for the pilot. Having a fire indication and the controller's not understanding you
Must have been frustrating the ATC to have a pilot who can't communicate in ICAO English.
Agree Max. "We have a cargo fire warning" would have saved much unnecessary communication.
@@Planeviz Would that have really mattered that much? Once they heard the word fire.. pretty damn clear it's an emergency.
Sheer lack of professionalism from pilots.
@@Planeviz MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY would have saved even more time.
"Is there anyone speaking english down there?, National Cargo 891."
I am half way through this now , they told Narita 7 times they have an onboard fire , this is a cluster flap !
Yeah, not once did the pilots use the word "Mayday". ICAO English is a tested requirement for the controllers, but not for US pilots even before international ATPL operations.
Al the clacks are dangling at the FAA and FCC for not requiring a basic understanding and use of ICAO English phraseology. It would help if they used it domestically, as pilots are so badly prepared for international operations even at ATPL level that they actually believe conversational American will get them by.
Amazing to hear the confusion at Japanese ATC. I wonder if standard freaseology would have helped.
It would have. At this point I fear that only a big accident involving usage of non-ICAO phraseology will get US pilots in particular to stop trying to be the exception to the rule. It's stupid and dangerous how some US pilots use FAA phraseology or at worst plain english with non-english speaking ATC.
@@ScaledNotesMusic I totally agree with you, but wouldn't they still be considered as being under FAA rules? But yea totally agree that they should have been using ICAO phraseology, as all aircraft in the world should be using. Though I do find the American pilots and ATC are the worst for this.
@@Chris.Row1991 Outside of the US FAA rules don't apply, doesn't matter if it's a US airline. Each country has some slight variation of the ICAO standards but they're all very similar (but the emergency declaration is pretty much identical across the board), for good reason. It makes communication much more clear especially with language barriers like in this video.
@@ScaledNotesMusic ah ok, good to know, I thought that the FAA rules would have applied to all aircraft registered in the US regardless of where they were flying.
But I do think that the way most American pilots (that I have heard) "DECLARE an emergency" is not the best, especially when in a non Native English speaking area.
I would prefer to see the official PANPAN or MAYDAY call used as it is much more authoritative, easily understood and cuts through language barriers.
While there is clearly an issue with the standard of English can someone explain why US pilot's have such a problem with clearly stating mayday mayday mayday especially when dealing with controllers who don't speak English as a first language
Cuz they don’t.
As an example, this guy never really did pronounce the word "National" with all the syllables. Also, answering with slang "affirm" is improper.
@@VoiceofNH Affirm is not a slang, but a published ICAO change, for "affirmative" not to be confused with "negative" in pilot-ATC communication. Just like many other ICAO rules it did not make it yet in to FAA communication rules. Pilots flying internationally should be aware of international phraseology. Not strictly pilot's fault, but the their companies, that don't provide this type of training.
@@airvlad777 Or the FAAs, for not adopting standard ICAO English phraseology, which would be very easy for them, as American speakers, to do.
"Communications on the ground are unreadable" Much like from the air. Man that takes some patients with the accent barriers.
Pilot: We have a fire cargo aft. ATC: State the nature of your emergency. Pilot to pilot: Are they kidding us?
They were lucky they made it to Narita. Nearest was Haneda 16R/L at the time emergency
was declared and saved them 15mins. On the other hand if pilot used the term『Mayday』at the first place, it helped the controller to understand the situation quicker.
The pilot repeatedly requested Narita, though.
1;50 They mentioned Haneda or Narita. Controller couldn’t hear 『Haneda』but only heard『Narita』
Then she start asking if they want North vector or South vector. （Even the subtitles are wrong）The pilots couldn’t understand and replied short vector. Controller thought pilot asked for『South vector』and gave them heading 180, which was actually more track miles to Narita16R .
It shows how difficult to communicate with a nonnative controller especially under a very stressed situation.
As a Japanese I suspect the female ATC is a newbie or maybe on OJT. She sounds nervous and then a male ATC appears on the same frequency.
Yes their English is far from being great, but I wonder the National’s pilot had any intentions to actually “communicate.” He sounds like he’s just throwing words at them.
It's really interesting situation. And a lot of us will find something to remember for ourselves. I'm not blaming involved people.
as a Japanese, this is disappointing. I agree that the flight deck should have used ICAO terminology, but an ATC officer not recognizing the simplest phrases like fire, is disturbing. Only understanding what you were taught in text book becoming a hinderance.
ATC is totally fine under normal circumstances, I can and even the pilots understand without any problem. She might be confused why they suddenly requesting vectors back to the airport, it just didn’t click in right away in her mind. But why the pilots did not declare pan pan pan or even mayday call? Just say it’s an emergency because of a possible cargo fire. Shouldn’t that be enough for a mayday call?
And totally un-fine under non-normal circumstance.
apart from the atc, is the pilot unable to use simple basic engrish word ?
So much time wasted by not saying “Mayday”; “declaring an emergency” doesn’t mean a whole lot to ESL controllers that only speak basic aviation English.
Yeah, "Cargo 891 Mayday Mayday Mayday . we have FIRE on the plane. Need Vectors to Narita . I repeat : Cargo 891 Mayday Mayday Mayday . we have FIRE on the plane. Need Vectors to Narita . But in general the Japanese and Chinese are not very good in English is my experience. If this would have happen in example The Netherlands Airspace this would not be a problem at all....
Exactly.
A monkey would do a better job on atc
The Magic word is Maday every aviation professional either Pilot or Controller
It must be terrifying dealing with a serious emergency while trying to communicate with an ATC who barely understands/speaks English.
These pilots would have received much better response if they had used the proper phraseology .
Mayday mayday mayday,
The language barrier here is huge, glad the pilots got down safely.
I love how they have 6986916 questions for the aircraft before they ever do anything.
"We have a fire cargo aft, request to return to airport"
"Are you saying you have a fire onboard?"
"YES! And it's getting hot in here"
"Is the fire on board the aircraft?"
"Yes in the aft cargo area"
"SO the fire in in the aft cargo area?"
"Yes! Can I have that vector now plz?"
"DO you want a vector back to the airport?"
"Yes plz, and hurry"
"Which airport would you like?"
"Somewhere with a runway please, hurry, the fire is growing and the smoke is getting worse"
"So to clarify, you have a fire yes? And it's on board?"
"YES! For the love of God, give me a vector!"
"I can give you vector to the airport if you want"
"Aircraft in distress, this is tower, come in...over"
MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY
y’all bashing the ATC controller for not understanding english very well.. it would’ve helped if the US pilots decided to speak ICAO english, knowing very well that they are flying in a foreign country where english isn’t fluent. but hey it’s english everyone should be fluent right?? 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Yup! Notice it says *proficient*
Effective March 5, 2008, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requires the following certificate holders who operate internationally to have a certificate stating that the holder is proficient in the use of the English language:
Private, commercial, and airline transport pilots with powered aircraft ratings
Flight engineers and flight navigators
Control tower operators
ATC is slow but pilots need to more clear. 'Mayday, Mayday' and a clear request to whatever airport they wanted would have saved so much time. Short abreviations such as 'aft' cargo etc, are not understood clearly. Saying 'fire' would be understood.
How about Three magic words…mayday mayday mayday (hopefully @Scott Perdue talk about this)
Usually, the criticism toward US pilots and FAA controllers about phraseology is poorly taken, but this was absurd. Just even say emergency. MAYDAY is better.
Here is one of the things they don’t tell you in aviation in regards to English.
The official card of the olympics may be American Express - doesn’t mean its the only card that’s accepted.
Also most native english speakers speak quickly and forget that ‘No’ is better than ‘negative’ and ‘Yes’ is better than ‘affirmative’ when dealing with non native speakers. ‘aft cargo fire indication’ when spit out in less than 2 seconds is useless information as was proven.
"A firm" is not really a word. "Affirmative" or even "yes" would be just fine.
It's the official aviation language and official terminology for aviation coms, if you don't understand it you have no business being atc tbh. It's like being a lawyer without knowing legal terms. (ICAO 9432 is the industry standard for radio phraseology).
If all you know is the English in ICAO 9432 you'd do a much better job than knowing general English but not ICAO 9432 specifically.
Just my 2 cents. Plane's have crashed due to things like this.
I can't even do my hobbies if my English was this bad (I'm not a native English speaker.) but she gets to guide around god knows how many people in her airspace.
@Brad James This exactly. Although i wonder what his emergency SOP says about communication. Often American carriers omit the need for MAYDAY in the SOP or even standard phrases so they never practice it in the sim and get caught in headlights when it happens in the real world.
Or "Ehhhh Firmative" like The Fonz here.
Your opinion is not the worlds reality.
TYO CONTRL & NRT TWR and more, this is 超ヤバい。Repeating without understanding. This can be extremely dangerous. Is flying really safe in Japan?
If I were the pilot I would file a big fat report.
Agreed. And what is to me interesting is that The Japanese controller can be held liable criminally. I would not want to be a controller there if I wasn’t very good at speaking and understanding english.
He would lose because he didn't use proper terminology.
If you are real pilot I bet you won't dare
@@rinjing01 what do you mean real pilot 😂? I’m a real pilot. I’ve got my licenses
@@Republic3D He did
I cannot believe I’m hearing this awful ATC communication. That’s as bad as it gets.
welcome to Japanese ATC....its especially worse at NRT
US pilots belief in conversational American as a substitute for ICAO English is indeed a major problem - it is clear that examinations in that have only been required on one side of the exchanges.
After this video I will only fly a Japanese airline into narita
That wasn't the problem. Other than the first controller, who was very difficult to understand (and I have extensive experience working with Asia, including Japan), the other controllers were completely comprehensible. The pilots badly managed communications in this situation.
Surprised to see such a wide tear drop vector, ATC could have easily cut the flight time by a third with a more direct approach. Needless to say, the English or lack or it is astonishing especially the initial female controller.
Concerning a wide drop vector, air space around Tokyo have a lot of restrictions because there are many airports are not only Narita but Haneda ,Yokota( US Air Force base). I think this vector is the best it for the emergency aircraft.
I disagree … she was fine. The pilots are not in the States any more … the pilots could have been clearer.
Try, "Mayday, mayday, mayday - FIRE." Or, for this fellow - "ANND, mayday, mayday, mayday - FIRE." After two of those terrible calls, I would have likely rerouted myself and landed at the nearest suitable runway. Can't think of a more urgent condition than a fire alarm on a freighter carrying lithium batteries.
I disagree with other commentators that say it was ATC’s poor English that caused the initial delay. When operating in countries where English is not the first-spoken language, the pilot should speak slowly and more importantly use STANDARD international phraseology. The pilot did neither on this occasion.
It was the pilot’s poor phraseology and failure to speak slowly that caused the delay in initial vectors.
Nobody cares at that exact moment what part of the aircraft there is an apparent fire. ATC simply want to hear MAYDAY (x3). The reason can be dealt with later. “Mayday Mayday Mayday National Cargo 891 Fire, request immediate return to Narita airport”.
It really isn’t that difficult.
No good explaining to ATC the location of fire while you are flying at high-speed AWAY from the airport. 🙄
This is what non American (including British) tried to explain to majority of American aviator (or aviation enthusiast), they actually knew it but refuse to practice.
Thank you, I'm glad someone here sees the problem. I can't defend the poor communication of the pilots, not every country is going to have masters of the English language available for the graveyard shift.
If this had turned out badly, I think the Japanese Transport Safety Board and the US NTSB would have been critical of both parties, but would have been particularly harsh on the NCA pilots. National Cargo was very fortunate not to have had another disaster like in Bagram, except it would have been in heavily populated Tokyo.
ATC controllers should be fluent in english, if they cant understand anything another than strict ICAO phraseology theres an issue.
Even when the pilots had a pretty clear request (vectors back to Narita) the controller still didnt understand at first, and its not like the controller was clear and easy to understand either. Wtf is a "close vector" ?
@@Dudeisthere You're using the word "fluent" - have you ever lived in another country where your native language was not the primary language? "Fluency" is an extremely high bar that very few people meet. I lived in the Francophone region of Switzerland for a year, after having studied French for 7 years in high school and university. I dreamt in French. I still wouldn't call myself fluent.
I'm dwelling on that to make the point that you're not going to get ATC controllers who are "fluent" in English, especially in countries where the native language is vastly different from English. The best a pilot can hope for is "proficiency," and it's incumbent upon the *pilots* to use ATC phraseology to help themselves out.
As a 33-year Air Force C-5 pilot and 20-year domestic pilot I can say that the use of the word ‘Mayday’ has only recently been stressed to us. I was initially trained to say ‘declaring an emergency’, and sadly that has stuck with me for far too long. The use of ‘Mayday’ was reserved for a complete panic situation, and most emergencies don’t rise to that level. It is only recently that I have come to understand that controllers, particularly non-US controllers, don’t really understand when a pilot says he is declaring an emergency, and Mayday is the trigger that gets the controllers mind focused on the need to give appropriate priority. Also, pilots need to take control of their aircraft. After ATC failed to respond to requests, the pilot should have used his authority to turn around on his own, and simply inform ATC what was happening. Then it becomes ATC’s job to deal with the situation as it unfolds.
When she could not understand him, he could have helped by saying slowly Emergency - Fire - Vector Direct Tokyo
Starting with Mayday x3 would have helped, but apparently, the word does not exist in the American language and is not taught as ICAO English to international pilots as it is to ATC controllers.
Seriously no Mayday (or Pan) declaration from the pilot? A fire IS an emergency right? Pilot was talking like he left his wallet at the terminal and would kinda want to go back for it. Female controller’s accent wasn’t the problem here - pilots lack of standard phraseology and lack urgency was the problem. Glad all ended well.
To everyone hating on the Japanese ATC for the confusion in transmissions, what if the world air traffic language was Japanese instead of English. Do you think as an American pilot, you would be fluent in Japanese? Remember, they are working with two languages and most U.S. pilots only know English. We are fortunate it is English and the rest of the world has to conform to our language. There are times I can't understand people from America due to their accent, and I live in Missouri.
There’s a reason the female controller is working departure control, and that’s because her duties are relatively limited - climb and maintain this altitude, contact this other controller on this frequency etc. However, it’s very clear that if anything out of the ordinary happens, she cannot handle it. Scary stuff.
That being said. To the pilot. Dude. Fucking say “Mayday mayday mayday”. Wtf you’re on fire dude.
Thhose pilots learned ICAO Language during flight school...after that they forget everything
@@rinjing01 Just like most other American pilots, and FAA ATC staff.
Oh I hope some lessons learnt by the Japanese controllers here…..
And the Pilots also should learn Maday is the magic word. The Japanese understand maday everyone does..
A clear illustration of the problematic results of the slack attitude to communication shown by so many US operators. Standardised phraseology is intended to enable clear communication with non native speakers, its not reasonable to expect everyone the world over to speak fluently in English - despite what many commenters may think. ‘Mayday, mayday, mayday, request vectors direct Narita’ would most likely have been clearly understood by the controller.
not everyone, but is a must for ATC.
@@klyplays While that would be great in theory, I don't think that it's realistic. Air traffic control is a demanding job that few people have the mental capacity and resilience to do. English language skills are already mandatory, but if you added to that a requirement to speak conversationally fluent English you'd have a massive controller shortage on your hands! It's a far more pragmatic approach to ensure that both pilots and controllers understand a key subset of phrases that have been specially crafted to avoid ambiguity, than to try and ensure all controllers can comprehend every utterance of a native speaker.
I'm not a pilot, but I am curious about the situation. Does a pilot hot have the authority to navigate back to a landing place if there is a fire on board the airplane? I mean without all that blabber between the controllers and the pilots. If I was ever so fortunate to be a pilot, and a fire was burning in my cargo hold, I would turn around and head straight back to the airport no matter what the ATC said. It's hard to image this is not the policy. I mean, if your car was on fire, do you have to call the police and fire department before you pull over to the side of the road and get out?
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
If they're unable to communicate there are procedures they need to follow but in short yes the pilot can and should do what is necessary to prevent a catastrophic outcome
It’s a bit more complicated than that. Flying into a mountain between you and the airport is no good and being overhead the airport at the wrong altitude, not alligned to any runway doesn’t help either. Might also want to keep an emergency aircraft away from the most densely populated areas. That’s what atc should be there for so the pilots can deal with the emergency...
This is a bit scary. Good thing it turned out OK.
Dam the ATC is jacked up on Saki slow down Tokyo Rose.
Bro the controller asked like 3-4 times what the pilots wanted. You can clearly hear they are asking for a vector back but the ATC doesn't understand...
Terrible communication by the pilot.
Here is what you say according to the ICAO standard.
MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, Tokyo Control, National Cargo 891, Fire on board, Request immediate landing at Narita.
Hi, great video! 😃 I know your busy, but if you want the info, I found a diverted flight and an emergency return.
If I am on a plane and get a fire warning there will be no delay in declaring a Mayday. Last I heard they don't issue parachutes to cargo pilots. I learned long ago, treat every warning as if it were the real McCoy. They can fire me later.
That doesn't seem safe to have an A.T.C. that doesn't have a clear speaking voice in English. It took her 3 times to understand they needed vectors. Sometimes a few seconds is critical. It's just not safe, bottom line.
Yeah, it was disgusting. Assuming that was the FO on the radio. I would have been a little more forceful with her. Her English was terrible. Not very impressive for a rich country.
@@TWA-km9wt so agree, if i was in that plane handling radio traffic i would have taught her enough 4 letter words to last her entire lifetime. With that in mind i was quite impressed with the crew that they just went along with her and seemed to keep their cool. The male was not much better than the woman. Japan must be scrapping the bottom of the barrel for ATC staff.
Japan ATC understands ICAO English perfectly. Somehow the US based crew can't speak it.
Just one problem. There was nothing direct or clear about the pilot's English. He could not have said that any worse.
25 years ago this problem was really bad in South and Central America.
Very unprofessional. How did you make it to the B747 ?
How many times did he say FIRE before it clicked?
It would have clicked a lot faster had he added a "MAYDAY" or three...
That could have been DISASTEROUS!! That communication and the fact that they were carrying LITHIUM batteries, just goes without saying what could have been if those batteries had ignited. How many damn times did they have to tell the tower NOT open cargo doors until they were ordered to do so...if it had been a more hastened event the pilots wouldn't have had the time to convey those requests that many times.
That's the short vectors....I would hate to see the long vectors
The nearest airport is RJTY, Yokota AB, and the controllers at the airport speak English fluently.
Probably too close to easily descend into, but how does speaking English help when the pilots can't?
Mayday is the ICAO term then need to START their call with, and speak clearly and concisely.
@@phillee2814 The pilot should have declared mayday soon after the emergency. Right, RJTY is so close, but unless the ATC, Tokyo ACC, does not understand “English”, landing at RJTY is probably better choice than the other airports.
@@toshita222 If only US pilots were trained and tested on correct ICAO phraseology, there would be no problem with ANY STC in the world.
I''m English - I was born here to English parents, grandparents, and can trace parts of my family tree back to before the industrial revolution. But I still had to pass an ICAO test for my licence, so why does the US think they are special?
Japanese ATCs wouldn't have understood the door issues. Their English proficiency in emergency situations hampers safe and smooth landimgs. The National fleets should divert to the Yokota AFB if they got compromised.
Seconds count here, and the pilots response here to ATC must be addressed.
1:59 I think she said “Do you accept north vector or south vector. For foreigners, I think first female controller’s experience is short. Especially Japanese English accent is not well because they are not trained about it. It is serious problems I suppose.
Dude, turn the damn plane back, don’t worry about ATC clearance. 🤦♂️🤨
I have flown into and out of Japan for years. The accent is less of a problem than you might expect. The disconcerting aspect of this event was the obtuse behavior of the controllers, especially the woman. With respect to you armchair aviators chiding the pilots for not bellowing "Mayday mayday mayday," I can assure you that there is not a controller on earth who is unfamiliar with the term "emergency." These guys did a good job.
It’s OK to critique Professional Aviators and learn from their mistakes - you can call it arm-chair aviating all you want, but that’s how WE learn from accidents AND incidents.
Simply put, they could have done a better job by using ICAO standard phraseology of MAYDAY and/or PAN-PAN.
These guys were lucky…while it sounds like they DID run their checklists, if this was a legit, uncontrolled, on-board fire, they wasted precious time into the statistical “end” of being able to maintain control of their aircraft (FAA AC 120-80A).
I’ve flown outside the US for years as well - Japan, Germany, EU/UK Scandinavians, Canada, South/Central America…
This example, is THE reason why ICAO-standard phraseology is emphasized, during emergencies, in most legit FOM/WOMs and recurrent training, at major US carriers.
I GUARANTEE you this crew is asking themselves what they could have done better to manage the emergency. Probably after a few 🍻
About , did you personally talk to each one of them? Because this is not the first time when not using MAYDAY x 3 has caused problems. For example, an US pilot trying to make a MAYDAY call kept saying they are "declaring an emergency" for about 5 minutes, and the Brazilian ATC couldn't understand what they meant. See ASRS report 342790:
"After an engine was shut down due to an engine low-pressure light, we declared an emergency and requested the emergency equipment to stand by for landing at [Viracopos Airport, Sao Paulo, Brazil].
[The] Curitiba [Center] controller had difficulty understanding our request due to the language barrier between us. In addition, he did not realize that we were declaring an emergency. He asked us if it was a red, yellow or green emergency. We did not know what this meant. This resulted in my decision to dump fuel without notifying air traffic control (ATC). I also failed to set the transponder to 7700. Not being able to communicate adequately with ATC greatly increased our workload.
Callback conversation with [the captain who filed the report] revealed the following information:
[the captain] expresses concern primarily over the fact that the Curitiba Center controller did not understand the meaning of the word 'emergency.' This captain stated 'emergency' many times, and it was not until another aircraft interrupted the communications, about five minutes after the first emergency declaration, that [the captain's] words were translated into Portuguese for the controller. It was then that the controller asked if this was a 'red, green or yellow' emergency. [The captain] replied, 'red,' as he believes that anyone would. He now believes that the problem was purely related to the controller's failure to understand 'emergency.'
In hindsight, the captain states that he should have communicated the fuel dumping to ATC and set 7700 in the transponder. He also might have tried 'mayday' and ['pan-pan.'] [The captain] has questioned his own actions in this emergency, [and] he states that everything was so confusing as a result of the conversation that transpired."
Even in the US, the correct call to make is MAYDAY or PAN, and not "Declaring an Emergency.
The level of English competence demonstrated by ATC is disgraceful. The bigger concern is that ATC is handling international traffic for flights into the world’s biggest metro area. I live in Japan. The country has to do better than this with its English competency.
On the other end, the pilot speaks like he’s flying crop duster flights somewhere in the Florida Everglades. Just poor all the way around.
i thought the woman in the beginning was speaking japanese i was like wtf. this is scary
Even once they get past the initial communication problem, which is in part the pilot's fault, the various controllers remained completely unaware of the nature and urgency of the situation.
Just poorly handled...
Am. pilots rarely use pan pan pan or mayday. So they cause confusion outside of the Usa.
and a number of English speaking, non American pilots flying to the US have complained about the lack of standard ICAO terms used by the FAA ATC.
Just wow on the language barrier
The American system of just ‘declaring an emergency’ really is in need of being changed to the very clear ‘Mayday Mayday Mayday’
That already is the correct method. I am not sure where the whole declaring an emergency crap comes from. "The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times." FAA AIM nor the 7110.65 don't say anything about "declaring an emergency". It is always Mayday, mayday, mayday.
"EMERGENCY. CARGO FIRE. RETURN NARITA."
Simple words, spelled clearly.
How do you not understand American isn't international language.
Because thats improper. MAYDAY would have stopped all the nonsense we just witnessed.
"American" isn't a language.
The entire problem happened because the American crew refused to use Aviation English.
@@magical_catgirl Sadly, it is. If they claim it is still English they can use English words (aluminium, for example), spellings (Colour), and pronunciations.
To be clear I don't care what they speak as long as they don't claim it is English - it may have been once, but that was about 250 years ago.
ICAO phraseology guys! How hard can it be? Especially when you‘re not in a native english environment, make it as easy as possible.
Hazmat onboard? Hell yeah!
I usually do pretty good with accents but I can't understand anything she is saying.
Be interesting to see what RJTT Haneda Runway rotation was at the time. If it was 34L/34R then would have been much quicker to get it on the deck at Haneda.
They could (should) have requested that if it was faster way for them to get back on the ground. Instead of long flight over densely populated area and discussing with miserable ATC.
I am not a pilot nor controller but I agree.. that is just flat terrible.. a truly terrible life threatening blunder of a job
Lots of armchair pilots in here today. I won't comment on the language barrier because it is what it is, but will agree that a 3X Mayday call should have been made immediately.
Was the first part of the ground communication, "What is your reason to return back to the airport?"
The controllers at Tokyo Control were just absoulutely horrible, they took so long to understand the situation and give them vectors, they also did not suggest Haneda Airport which was closer to the aircraft. The person who was handling Tokyo Approach was great in my opinion, he understood the nature of the emergency and the severity so he was very quick. A lot say that the accents are impossible to understand but I was able to understand them. Maybe though if the pilots used "Mayday" or "PAN PAN" the controllers at Tokyo Control would have been more quick
What the heck is wrong with these pilots: MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY ...and then speak SLOWLY!!!!!!!!! The failure in basic communication is stunning! ...on both sides. The no-brainer is the MAYDAY call!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone explain why it is so rarely used???
"Mayday" is 'rarely' used because the FAA doesn't use it. The FAA and American crews have problems using correct, internationally accepted, Aviation English.
@@magical_catgirl Thank you - great to have a clear explanation. I am in Europe where it is used more often
She ( atc) speaks " Japanglish "
By the time ATC fully understand the situation there will be yet another aircraft Hull all risk claim in London