Excellent work Katie! Love this series so much. I'm impressed that you not only narrowed it down to five but that you also have the ability to talk about books and authors you don't particularly like yourself and still see their positives and benefits for others. When I don't like an author I find it really difficult to bring them in conversation
Thanks Andreea! I feel like George Eliot, though not my favourite, is still someone I can see the importance of, at least sometimes, if that makes sense?
Those of us in the U.S. who went to high school in the 1970s remember the required reading of Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" and the story of Hester Payne wearing the letter "A" on her chest as punishment for her illegitimate child born in a Puritan colony in 17th century America. Compelling and powerful!
I actually loved Adam Bede. I definitely don't think it's a novel that has no hope in humanity. I also wouldn't say George Eliot blames the woman more. Blaming anyone isn't really the point of the novel. Hettie is an extremely flawed character, much more so than say, Ruth, whose only mistake was ignorance to the realities of the world. But that doesn't make Hettie an unsympathetic character. We still, or I think George Eliot hopes that we still, sympathize with her. A huge theme behind this novel is the importance of human sympathy, despite how flawed we are. SPOILER: I also believe that Eliot gave her a kinder punishment than other Victorian authors give their fallen women, especially when you consider that what she did was much worse. Ruth still had to die in the end, but Eliot spared Hettie. Eliot was sort of a fallen woman, herself, so I think she's writing from a very different perspective than Hardy or Gaskell. She knows first hand the scorn society has for women who behave 'badly'.
Yeah, one of the reason why I wanted to mention it here is because I think it's worth reading and thinking about, and is quite nuanced. Parts of it frustrated me, but to me honest that's partly just a problem I have with Eliot - I'm aware that she's an author I often don't quite 'get'.
Eliot didn't fall - she studied the question, took her measurements, made her calculations, then jumped in. In Felix Holt she wrote "It isn't true that love make all things easy; it makes us choose what is difficult." (May not be word perfect.) It's one of the most beautiful lines ever, I think.
I liked Adam Bede, George Eliot is superlative in her character contrasting. It's as though she's most interested in producing a rare kind of friction by shoving together characters whose motivations and values are interestingly misaligned. Hettie's problem was that of wanting things that aren't worth wanting, and of being so optimistic or afraid of failure as not to countenance an alternative mindset. Contrast that with the blithe and care-free though ultimately good-natured Arthur Donnithorne, and the puritanical and practically-minded Adam Bede who could not possibly understand why anybody would fail to do anything but the right thing in any circumstance. It's three brands of naivety crashing into each other.
Hi everyone!!! l am reading the following for my Master's thesis about "Lost-Lady Narratives" and if anyone has read any of them, l would be happy to have some advice on the common themes etc. The novels are: Kate Chopin's The Awakening, Edith Wharton's The House of Mirth, Willa Cather's A Lost Lady, William Styron’s lie Down in Darkness and Richard Yates' s The Revolutionary Road.
I read Tess last month, it was a very dark, depressing and impactful read! But I think I'll really like Ruth more than it, after listening to your description of it🤔. I'm going to pick it up soon.
Two novels set in the very late Victorian period written by Americans are Sister Carrie by Theodore Dreiser and The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton. In SIster Carrie, a poor farm girl, Carrie, arrives in Chicago hoping to seek a better station in life. An employer becomes obsessed with her and it leads to his taking actions which lead to his downfall. At the time of publication there was a lot of criticism because the public felt Carrie didn't suffer the appropriate consequences due per the social mores of the time. In Wharton's novel, Lily Bart is a character from a very different social strata. When the reader meets her she is 27, the bloom of youth is fading for a woman who always got by on her looks and style. She was born to wealth, however, her father lost it all. She now has a small stipend from an older relative and is barely hanging on to her position in society. She has burned and will burn a lot of bridges. The future is not bright and to say much more would be a spoiler to anyone interested in reading this terrific novel about the Gilded Age in New York.
Hi Katie! I wondered if you could maybe do a video (or recommend me some titles here) about Victorian novels that were serialized publications and the reading public's opinion had an effect on the conclusion of the novel? Thank you in advance! :)
I'm afraid I don't know much about this topic. The only incidence I can think of of the top of my head is that there are less references to Fagin being Jewish in the second half of Oliver Twist, because Dickens received some complaints about antisemitism, realised they were right and attempted to write in a less prejudiced way. That's the only example I know I'm afraid.
@@katiejlumsden I guess it was a highly specific request on my part 😁 But I really appreciate your answer, thank you. I guess I'm going to have to check out Oliver Twist then, I've never read it anyways... Thanks again!
@@adyingdream4585 I'm interested if the opinions of the people who were reading along changed the outcome or any aspect of the novel, because the author had the opportunity to react to their opinions. Sort of like when in fanfiction writers will continue a storyline that is favored by their readers.
@@zsofiandrassy5874 thats a great question. I thought though that people's reviews at that period were something pretty extensive and detailed and I am afraid they wouldn't have reviewed it till the end of the romance. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 I've read reviews about Austen's books and they were very descriptive.
I didn't love Tess, but I agree with you that it is a powerful novel. It certainly is memorable. I loved reading Ruth though, mainly bc I just adore Elizabeth Gaskell! I think I would like reread Ruth sometime, b/c there is so much depth there. I have Adam Bede on my TBR, but haven't even heard of the other two books you mention. My wishlist keeps getting bigger, and it's all YOUR fault!! haha!
It's interesting that your edition of East Lynne names the author "Mrs Henry Wood" whereas another reviewer held up an edition naming her Ellen Wood. Definition via the husband?
Yeah, so she was published under 'Mrs Henry Wood' in the Victorian period, and in the early-to-mid 20th century. My edition's one from the 1970s/80s I think. Nowadays she's usually published as 'Ellen Wood', to avoid defining her by her husband.
I read Tess years ago and I'm afraid it put me off Hardy for a long time; it was so bleak. However I'm going to give him another chance soon. I'm also hoping to get to Ruth this year.
I feel like just reading everything, the only one I've read is Tess. Tess was a very slow reading at some points and very detailed as well, but at the end I cried a lot. I think that Angel was much worse with her...His behaviour was disgusting...
Interesting - but I wonder that you find Adam Bede unforgiving of Hetty. She is pretty and shallow and, most of all, very young. She is treated rather like a pet by everyone around her at home except Dinah, who misses what is really going on, but sees trouble and wants to bring Hetty to God. I find the story of the way the affair begins to have more depth than most others - we get to see into the minds of both of these young people as it is all happening. For Arthur she is also a plaything, but he does care for her and accepts his own guilt and punishes himself - in this book, the punishment isn't all hers; he exiles himself as well so his presence doesn't cause more suffering. So if Hetty is seen as a consenting partner with some responsibility for the affair, she doesn't bear all the consequences either. And the scenes of her wanderings when she is near to giving birth are heart-wrenching, as is the trial and her final confession to Dinah. I find it told with a great deal of sympathy and understanding. And of course the convention is that, however redeemed, fallen women need to die (except Carry in The Vicar of Bullhampton, interestingly). I don't know if you've read Mary Barton, but sometimes I find myself wondering about the aunt (is it Sally?) who is a fallen woman who has taken to the streets. She's not a major character, but she's a powerful one.
I agree almost completely with what you've written, except the last bit. Hettie is saved from death. She's one of the few 'fallen' women that don't die. I think in a lot of ways Adam Bede is a lot more progressive in its approach to 'fallen' women that most novels of the time were. In Ruth, Ruth had to be presented as pure in every other way in order for Gaskell to have the reader sympathize with her. Hettie is much, much more flawed, yet Eliot still wants us to sympathize with her. It's a much more realistic depiction of humanity.
@@shannonreid2497 Hetty gets transported, but dies before she can come home again - that's what I was thinking of. I agree about George Eliot presenting Hetty as human; she does that with all her characters so you do get to feel compassion for them, no matter how bad they are. Sometimes I just want to shake Hetty, she's so thoughtless.
This is interesting, Rachel. I found Hetty's plotline the most interesting in Adam Bede, but I found it hard to read as anything other than unforgiving - I think it's because Hetty's vanity is so emphasised and so critiqued - but as I will willingly admit, Eliot's not really an author I feel I have a great understanding of! It's an interesting and somewhat different portrayal of a 'fallen' women, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to mention it here. I look forward to reading The Vicar of Bullhampton then! Also, you might find Esther Waters interesting - the plot is rather different there.
@@katiejlumsden Her vanity is part of her character - she's a child, and is presented as such. Her vanity is part of her fantasy/narcissistic child's world. I can only begin to imagine what being pregnant was like for her. Understanding is not the same as blame. Eliot says, here is this spoiled pretty thing who has never had a serious thought in her life, and she is in danger. I worry about you and George Eliot, you know. :) I appreciate that you included this in this commentary. Maybe you need to wait to read her again until you are 35 or 40 (that's not entirely facetious). Eliot herself was a late bloomer. I will look into Esther Waters.
@@rachelport3723 your comment resonated for me. In my teens and twenties I loved Austen and Gaskell and I still do, but Eliot is a writer I am valuing and appreciating so much more now I am in my fifties. I wonder what it is about her writing that is behind this. Wharton is another one that speaks to me more now.
Excellent work Katie! Love this series so much. I'm impressed that you not only narrowed it down to five but that you also have the ability to talk about books and authors you don't particularly like yourself and still see their positives and benefits for others. When I don't like an author I find it really difficult to bring them in conversation
Thanks Andreea! I feel like George Eliot, though not my favourite, is still someone I can see the importance of, at least sometimes, if that makes sense?
Thank you very much for shearing 😊🍀🌻. (PS. I will read G. Moore's" Esther Waters" )
Sounds like a great selection!
Those of us in the U.S. who went to high school in the 1970s remember the required reading of Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" and the story of Hester Payne wearing the letter "A" on her chest as punishment for her illegitimate child born in a Puritan colony in 17th century America. Compelling and powerful!
I've never read The Scarlet Letter, but it's on my list!
I just finished east Lynne last week. I sobbed at the end.
It's so great and emotional!
I actually loved Adam Bede. I definitely don't think it's a novel that has no hope in humanity. I also wouldn't say George Eliot blames the woman more. Blaming anyone isn't really the point of the novel. Hettie is an extremely flawed character, much more so than say, Ruth, whose only mistake was ignorance to the realities of the world. But that doesn't make Hettie an unsympathetic character. We still, or I think George Eliot hopes that we still, sympathize with her. A huge theme behind this novel is the importance of human sympathy, despite how flawed we are. SPOILER: I also believe that Eliot gave her a kinder punishment than other Victorian authors give their fallen women, especially when you consider that what she did was much worse. Ruth still had to die in the end, but Eliot spared Hettie.
Eliot was sort of a fallen woman, herself, so I think she's writing from a very different perspective than Hardy or Gaskell. She knows first hand the scorn society has for women who behave 'badly'.
Yeah, one of the reason why I wanted to mention it here is because I think it's worth reading and thinking about, and is quite nuanced. Parts of it frustrated me, but to me honest that's partly just a problem I have with Eliot - I'm aware that she's an author I often don't quite 'get'.
Eliot didn't fall - she studied the question, took her measurements, made her calculations, then jumped in. In Felix Holt she wrote "It isn't true that love make all things easy; it makes us choose what is difficult." (May not be word perfect.) It's one of the most beautiful lines ever, I think.
I liked Adam Bede, George Eliot is superlative in her character contrasting. It's as though she's most interested in producing a rare kind of friction by shoving together characters whose motivations and values are interestingly misaligned. Hettie's problem was that of wanting things that aren't worth wanting, and of being so optimistic or afraid of failure as not to countenance an alternative mindset. Contrast that with the blithe and care-free though ultimately good-natured Arthur Donnithorne, and the puritanical and practically-minded Adam Bede who could not possibly understand why anybody would fail to do anything but the right thing in any circumstance. It's three brands of naivety crashing into each other.
Hi everyone!!! l am reading the following for my Master's thesis about "Lost-Lady Narratives" and if anyone has read any of them, l would be happy to have some advice on the common themes etc. The novels are: Kate Chopin's The Awakening, Edith Wharton's The House of Mirth, Willa Cather's A Lost Lady, William Styron’s lie Down in Darkness and Richard Yates' s The Revolutionary Road.
I read Tess last month, it was a very dark, depressing and impactful read! But I think I'll really like Ruth more than it, after listening to your description of it🤔. I'm going to pick it up soon.
I'd certainly recommend Ruth. I like Tess, but it's not my favourite Hardy.
I love your videos. They make me enthusiastic about reading. You always have interesting suggestions and recommendations. Which I really appreciate.
Thanks :)
Two novels set in the very late Victorian period written by Americans are Sister Carrie by Theodore Dreiser and
The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton. In SIster Carrie, a poor farm girl, Carrie, arrives in Chicago hoping to seek a better station in life. An employer becomes obsessed with her and it leads to his taking actions which lead to his downfall. At the time of publication there was a lot of criticism because the public felt Carrie didn't suffer the appropriate consequences due per the social mores of the time. In Wharton's novel, Lily Bart is a character from a very different social strata. When the reader meets her she is 27, the bloom of youth is fading for a woman who always got by on her looks and style. She was born to wealth, however, her father lost it all. She now has a small stipend from an older relative and is barely hanging on to her position in society. She has burned and will burn a lot of bridges. The future is not bright and to say much more would be a spoiler to anyone interested in reading this terrific novel about the Gilded Age in New York.
I really must read more Edith Wharton! I haven't heard of Sister Carrie but that sounds interesting too.
I just finished The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne. I'm curious of your thoughts on it.
It's not a book I've read, but has been on my list for a while.
My favourite booktuber 💜💜💜 ilysm 💜💜💜
Ha thank you!
Hi Katie! I wondered if you could maybe do a video (or recommend me some titles here) about Victorian novels that were serialized publications and the reading public's opinion had an effect on the conclusion of the novel? Thank you in advance! :)
Do you mean you wanna know the opinion of people on the serialised romances?
I'm afraid I don't know much about this topic. The only incidence I can think of of the top of my head is that there are less references to Fagin being Jewish in the second half of Oliver Twist, because Dickens received some complaints about antisemitism, realised they were right and attempted to write in a less prejudiced way. That's the only example I know I'm afraid.
@@katiejlumsden I guess it was a highly specific request on my part 😁 But I really appreciate your answer, thank you. I guess I'm going to have to check out Oliver Twist then, I've never read it anyways... Thanks again!
@@adyingdream4585 I'm interested if the opinions of the people who were reading along changed the outcome or any aspect of the novel, because the author had the opportunity to react to their opinions. Sort of like when in fanfiction writers will continue a storyline that is favored by their readers.
@@zsofiandrassy5874 thats a great question. I thought though that people's reviews at that period were something pretty extensive and detailed and I am afraid they wouldn't have reviewed it till the end of the romance. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 I've read reviews about Austen's books and they were very descriptive.
I didn't love Tess, but I agree with you that it is a powerful novel. It certainly is memorable.
I loved reading Ruth though, mainly bc I just adore Elizabeth Gaskell! I think I would like reread Ruth sometime, b/c there is so much depth there.
I have Adam Bede on my TBR, but haven't even heard of the other two books you mention. My wishlist keeps getting bigger, and it's all YOUR fault!! haha!
Ruth is just great. And ha yes, Victorian literature is such a big field and there are so many books to read!
Ruth is just great. And ha yes, Victorian literature is such a big field and there are so many books to read!
Nana by Emile Zola is one about a fallen woman.
I've read Tess and Ruth and can't think of any other British ones. I've read Anna Karenina and Madame Bovary from the same era.
I really must read Madame Bovary some time!
It's interesting that your edition of East Lynne names the author "Mrs Henry Wood" whereas another reviewer held up an edition naming her Ellen Wood. Definition via the husband?
Yeah, so she was published under 'Mrs Henry Wood' in the Victorian period, and in the early-to-mid 20th century. My edition's one from the 1970s/80s I think. Nowadays she's usually published as 'Ellen Wood', to avoid defining her by her husband.
Are there any Vic novels about "fallen" men?
'Fallen' men weren't really a thing. Men weren't judged the same way as women when it came to sex.
'Fallen' men wasn't really a think, as Shannon says - Jude the Obscure might be the closest in a way...?
I read Tess years ago and I'm afraid it put me off Hardy for a long time; it was so bleak.
However I'm going to give him another chance soon. I'm also hoping to get to Ruth this year.
I would recommend Far From the Madding Crowd as a less dark place to go with Hardy :)
I feel like just reading everything, the only one I've read is Tess. Tess was a very slow reading at some points and very detailed as well, but at the end I cried a lot. I think that Angel was much worse with her...His behaviour was disgusting...
Yeah, Angel is pretty awful. I feel like he's one of my most hated characters in literature!
How come Les Miserables wasn't on your list?
It's French, not British, so it's not Victorian. Also, I only mention 5 novels here - I couldn't fit in everything!
Interesting - but I wonder that you find Adam Bede unforgiving of Hetty. She is pretty and shallow and, most of all, very young. She is treated rather like a pet by everyone around her at home except Dinah, who misses what is really going on, but sees trouble and wants to bring Hetty to God. I find the story of the way the affair begins to have more depth than most others - we get to see into the minds of both of these young people as it is all happening. For Arthur she is also a plaything, but he does care for her and accepts his own guilt and punishes himself - in this book, the punishment isn't all hers; he exiles himself as well so his presence doesn't cause more suffering. So if Hetty is seen as a consenting partner with some responsibility for the affair, she doesn't bear all the consequences either. And the scenes of her wanderings when she is near to giving birth are heart-wrenching, as is the trial and her final confession to Dinah. I find it told with a great deal of sympathy and understanding.
And of course the convention is that, however redeemed, fallen women need to die (except Carry in The Vicar of Bullhampton, interestingly). I don't know if you've read Mary Barton, but sometimes I find myself wondering about the aunt (is it Sally?) who is a fallen woman who has taken to the streets. She's not a major character, but she's a powerful one.
I agree almost completely with what you've written, except the last bit. Hettie is saved from death. She's one of the few 'fallen' women that don't die.
I think in a lot of ways Adam Bede is a lot more progressive in its approach to 'fallen' women that most novels of the time were. In Ruth, Ruth had to be presented as pure in every other way in order for Gaskell to have the reader sympathize with her. Hettie is much, much more flawed, yet Eliot still wants us to sympathize with her. It's a much more realistic depiction of humanity.
@@shannonreid2497 Hetty gets transported, but dies before she can come home again - that's what I was thinking of. I agree about George Eliot presenting Hetty as human; she does that with all her characters so you do get to feel compassion for them, no matter how bad they are. Sometimes I just want to shake Hetty, she's so thoughtless.
This is interesting, Rachel. I found Hetty's plotline the most interesting in Adam Bede, but I found it hard to read as anything other than unforgiving - I think it's because Hetty's vanity is so emphasised and so critiqued - but as I will willingly admit, Eliot's not really an author I feel I have a great understanding of! It's an interesting and somewhat different portrayal of a 'fallen' women, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to mention it here.
I look forward to reading The Vicar of Bullhampton then! Also, you might find Esther Waters interesting - the plot is rather different there.
@@katiejlumsden Her vanity is part of her character - she's a child, and is presented as such. Her vanity is part of her fantasy/narcissistic child's world. I can only begin to imagine what being pregnant was like for her. Understanding is not the same as blame. Eliot says, here is this spoiled pretty thing who has never had a serious thought in her life, and she is in danger.
I worry about you and George Eliot, you know. :) I appreciate that you included this in this commentary. Maybe you need to wait to read her again until you are 35 or 40 (that's not entirely facetious). Eliot herself was a late bloomer.
I will look into Esther Waters.
@@rachelport3723 your comment resonated for me. In my teens and twenties I loved Austen and Gaskell and I still do, but Eliot is a writer I am valuing and appreciating so much more now I am in my fifties. I wonder what it is about her writing that is behind this. Wharton is another one that speaks to me more now.
👌🏾🌷💕🦹🏾♂️
I just finished east Lynne last week. I sobbed at the end.